Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] nekton fatality

" a way to vent pressure build-up inside the hull "

Vance,

It seems to me that the snorkel valve in the K350 as designed, should enable a significant decrease in the entrapped air bubble, for a bottomed escape scenario like Beta. If the entrapped air in Beta included a portion of the upper part of the pressure hull, that indeed would be a tremendous force to contend with so suddenly released like that.

However, if the hull compromise in Beta was in fact a port in the tower, this would lend one to believe the entrapped bubble was in fact.... quite small as the "hole" was up high. If this is so, that is truly a scary proposition where escape planning is concerned for the K350.

The comment about the conversation on the bottom however, points to some entrapped air in the hull, as the tower doesn't seem large enough to accommodate two men...a sloping posture on the bottom perhaps?

I had wondered what scenarios Kittredge had in mind when he designed this snorkel valve in. Was this accident pre or post the K350 as designed? I had guessed this may have been for either a stuck hatch on the surface or rough seas scenario, but perhaps not exclusively!?

Joe

From: vbra676539@aol.com
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] nekton fatality
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 08:46:34 -0400

A SCUBA mask can be handy, for sure. I've had a couple of smoldering fires at depth and used a mask to keep my eyes clear. Very handy. Luckily, there was never any need for it otherwise. As a side note, a BIBS (built-in breathing system) is very necessary in the case of fire, along with a way to vent pressure build-up inside the hull as you surface and climb out to call your mommy, which is about what you feel like doing when the boat is on fire and it's only your own dumb butt sitting there between life and death. Important questions aside (like, what the hell am I doing here???) you think better with clean air and clear eyes. At least I do.

Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: empiricus@telus.net
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] nekton fatality

Escape bubbles . . .

The only bail I've ever had to do since 1974 was when a cylinder gauge gave
me the wrong readout.  Had to leave my belt at 80 ft. wearing a dry suit
(was very negative at the time).

Despite flaring immediately (forget doing it at 20 ft.) I shot up like a
missile.  Going through my "escape" routine in my head prior to release kept
me aware of all the necessaries to make it up (and out) ok.  But, I was
warm, wearing a mask, had actively trained for it and was close to shore.

I would imagine that a free escape from over 200 ft. had its challenges, not
the least of which is the probability these guys didn't so much as have a
mask to wear.  Waiting your turn, breath holding, getting narced, with the
only source of air carrying your coworker up a two hundred foot plus column
of water, is likely to make you inhale a little - at the wrong time.  I
wonder if the bubble sucked him out and pummeled him around enough to
disorient him.  Poor guy.

Truly a lesson here.  Bail out equipment at the very least.

Rick L



----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Perkel" <joeperkel@hotmail.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] nekton fatality


> Vance,
>
> Thank you for sharing that, an invaluable "real world" experience, and a
> previously missed accident.
>
> I always learned my lessons well from NTSB reports, but submersibles
haven't
> left the same trail. The reasons are obvious but, still...these types of
> stories by experienced divers / sub pilots, are even more valuable than
> those reports, because you put a human element to it they lack.
>
> I come away from this placing even more value to a predetermined operation
> limitations and contingency manual.
>
> The escape bubble scenario, will have me thinking for awhile.
>
> Thanks again
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> >From: vbra676539@aol.com
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] nekton fatality
> >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:16:10 -0400
> >
> >  Alpha and Beta were doing a recovery on a 26' speedboat from 200 plus
> >feet. They got slings under  the boat's bow and stern and started the
lift.
> >Alpha surfaced and Beta stayed to oversee the lift. The speedboat's bow
> >sling slipped and its hull slewed to one side as it fell free, hitting
the
> >sub in the conning tower and breaking one viewport completely in half!!!
> >The sub flooded immediately and sank (and boy howdy, that must have been
> >some ride). The pilot and co-pilot were alright at that point, discussed
> >the blow and go technique which was their only option. When the hatch
> >popped, the remaining air bubble held captive in the conn roared up and
> >sucked the pilot right out of the boat. He surfaced about half dead, and
> >says he doesn't remember that ascent to this day. He survived to build
and
> >operate Delta for its entire lifetime. His copilot was less fortunate,
and
> >was found by the Alpha on the bottom near the sunken sub. Alpha retrieved
> >the body and then went back to retrie!
> >  ve Beta. It was a tragic case of bad luck and poor judgement, not
> >improved by time or hindsight. I think this happened during Beta's first
> >year of operation, but don't hold me to that.
> >
> >I'd say there was plenty to learn. The sling was not attached to the
boat,
> >for instance, and the sub was too damned close to a load. I don't know
> >about pre-job planning and briefings. These were serious people, and this
> >was no lark. They were working, and something went badly wrong. Armchair
> >quarterbacks could point a finger or two, and if you and I were doing the
> >same job today, we'd probably call around and try to glean some lessons
> >learned from the folks who were there. I've done a bunch of lifts using
> >submarines, but I'll have to say that we didn't stay near loads in
> >midwater. Get hooked up, test the load then get the hell out seemed like
> >good advice, and that's the way we generally played it. Nobody wanted to
be
> >UNDER a load and with iffy visibility, about two seconds could be the
> >difference between seeing the lift, and running into it.
> >
> >This was the first of four fatalities in the business (that I knew of at
> >the time) three in the US and one in France, which served the rest of us
as
> >lessons learned. Painful lessons, to be sure, and sad. One to two surface
> >and/or saturation divers died per year (on average) during the
construction
> >days in the North Sea, for instance. But none of them were submersible
> >related. No lockout divers, no pilots, no crew. A hundred percent safety
> >record was considered the minimum goal, as the penalties for screwing up
> >were draconian, and often fatal. Looking back, I suspect we had some help
> >from the lucky stars, or the fates or the hand of God, depending on which
> >way you swing. We ran those boats right on the hairy edge of disaster
> >sometimes, but the accumulated experience and expertise pulled us
through.
> >
> >I got a nice little attaboy from the Navy guys once, just for doing
> >something they thought was downright crazy. An experienced Trieste pilot
> >might have 200 dives in his resume for his entire career, and there I
was,
> >diving 150 to 250 dives EVERY YEAR!!! And I was just one maniac in a
> >crowded asylum. Together, the dozen or so subs operating in the oil
fields
> >at any given time were doing thousands of dives per year...thousands!!!
> >There were plenty of incidents, I can assure you, and a few accidents for
> >spice--but no fatalities. None.
> >
> >The Navy was mightily impressed by that, but this was back when I all but
> >took it for granted. In retrospect, it seems fairly obvious that this
> >fashionable and distinguished gray that I wear at my temples these days
> >might really be a marker for overuse of cheek and sheer luck, eh, what?
And
> >just as a side note consider this: Delta Oceanographics runs twice as
many
> >dives per year than I did, and in perfect safety as far as I know. Alpha,
> >Beta, Gamma and Delta have done ten or twelve thousand dives between
them,
> >with one fatality in nearly forty years of operations. That's pretty
> >impressive. Mind you, I'll bet they could tell you a hair-raising story
or
> >two. In fact, I know they could. I've heard some of them.
> >
> >Vance
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: joeperkel@hotmail.com
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Sent: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 8:41 AM
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ebay subs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"an operational error that resulted in a broken viewport in Beta",
> >
> >
> >Vance, I'd be curious to know what happened here? I'll guess this was a
> >deep dive considering the lines design depth but, is this something to
> >learn from?
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >From: vbra676539@aol.com
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ebay subs
> >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:03:56 -0400
> >
> >
> >The 1 atm is the old Nekton Alpha. It was the 1st of its class, not
> >certified by ABS, and sold off when Nekton, Inc. went belly up. The odd
> >cage around it is someone's idea of safety. Mostly it looks like it
always
> >did, shinier perhaps, but intact. This boat evolved from the little
> >Submaray (I think) and led the way for a series that has done more than
> >10,000 dives with only one fatality (which was an operational error that
> >resulted in a broken viewport in Beta, rather than a failure of design).
> >You gotta love those Nekton boats!!! And I agree, a hundred grand is a
> >whole bucket full of money--but then again, ask some of the builders what
a
> >certifiable 1000 foot sub cost, and they'll quote 125K to half a million
> >and not even bat an eye. The difference is that Dan or somebody could
build
> >this boat for a third to a half of what they're asking--as long as you
> >don't count his time. And hey, who's counting?
> >Vance
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: irox@ix.netcom.com
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Sent: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 6:21 PM
> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ebay subs
> >
> >
> >
> >The big food version of scuba tow:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260036619314
> >
> >And a 1ATM that looks very much like a delta sub:
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220032301940
> >
> >Ian.
> >
> >
> >
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