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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps



Dean,

Excellent results are being had with the Hummingbird unit (model 977 I think).  You have to build your towfish (Carsten had a spare for sale) and add some cable (up to 300 ft.).  You should be able to do all of this I think for under $1500.

R/Jay

 

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

 

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

 

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

 

Side scan for sure would be Ideal. Budget will hinder me on this one. Seems like last I new

a unit that would do the job is much more than I will have in the entire sub.

 

I have worked with our local search and Rescue with around a $100,000 unit and it would be

nice. heheh more toys

 

Dean

 

In a message dated 8/29/2008 9:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ag@desertstar.com writes:

Dean,

You may want to consider doing initial acquisition of a target with a side scan from the surface.
Cheaper and you can go faster.  Then break out the sub when you want to explore/document a target in
detail.  Perhaps not as fun as 100% sub, but will probably be quicker.

Hope you find some great wrecks.

-a



-----Original message-----
From: Recon1st@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:01 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

> Hi Ian my goal of 6kts is because of the reason for building.
> I want to explore Lake Superior. From what I can tell from soundings, most 
> of the bottom is
> featureless flat bottom. Thousands of ship wrecks etc and I want to find  and
> document at
> least one.

> So the real reason is my age. Lake Superior is large and there is so little 
> time.

> Visibility is good up to 100' or so, and I would like to cruise above the 
> bottom 20 30 feet, to view
> the maximum area. I do have general areas that some of the more famous ones 
> went
> missing, but once again a lot of ground to cover and mostly boring.

> Many good points have been raised about brakes and I think I understand the 
> concerns.
> My best safety procedure is not to tread in waters deeper than 350'. I 
> totally understand
> that this is a lot of speed and possibly dangerous.

> Speed will only be used when I feel safe doing so, and for sure a good look 
> at the search
> area with surface sonar will be standard operating.

> Forward searching sonar is a must for avoidance, reverse thrust  and  very
> quick maneuverability are
> my other solutions. Murky water would be a complete NO NO 

> Besides all else I am going to paint it pretty and will not stand for any 
> scratches

> Dean


> In a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> irox@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> kind of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea:   If you plan to travel at
> 6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver  the required thrust to get
> you to that speed.  So, why not just select  a motor which can deliver 4x
> (or what ever multipler is appropriate) the  force you need and have a
> "full emergency reverse" button which would use  the full power of the motor
> to slow the sub down - idealy the emergency  reverse speed would cut off
> after a certain period.  You would only  ever use at maximum 1/4 power for
> non-emergency operations.  We know  reverse works and this would involve
> only beefing up components that are  already going to be used (i.e., no
> new inventions, research and risk  required).
>
> I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this was  already discussed.
>
> Dean, what's the reason the sub needs to travel so  fast?
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.
>
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> >From: Andrew Goldstein  <ag@desertstar.com>
> >Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00 AM
> >To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping  Flaps
> >
> >The following should be filed under "insane" and not  attempted without A
> LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of  discussion,
> >
> >A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced  dynamics and low inertia,
> which makes systems which are not viable on a large  sub possibly interesting. 
> Think  deep flight vs an  SSN....
> >
> >If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems  that it may be
> possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some 
> >regulators and a control manifold inside the hull.  These extra  bottles
> could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a  redundant ballast
> blow system.  Or in an emergency move a valve on the  manifold and blow A LOT
> of air forward of the sub.
> >An air jet  break.   It has the added benefit that if you design it wrong
> you  may instead get aft firing torpedoes  :)
> >
> >-a
> >
> >
> >-----Original  message-----
> >From: Recon1st@aol.com
> >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008  13:48:58 -0700
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >
> >> R/Jay I understand this  problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme 
> >> eminent  collision would this
> >> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of  a collision. If ever 
> deployed
> >> surfacing  is  required.
> >> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder. 
> >> 
> >> The one scenario I can think of that would not  be a good idea to deploy 
> >> would be running into  a
> >> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up. But  for the 
> >> boulder that will jump up
> >> and smack me,  I do think this is a viable solution.
> >> 
> >>  Dean
> >> 
> >> 
> >> In a message dated  8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> >>  bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> >>
> >> 
> >>  Dean,
> >> You  have to be concerned with the chute fouling your  propulsion/steering

> >> motors.  A big sub could just  shred the drogue while you could lose 
> propulsion
> >> just when  you need it most.  Remember that the Navy decided  that drogues
> and 
> >> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and stuck   with operating
> >> within the envelope.
> >> R/Jay 
> >> 
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jay  K.  Jeffries
> >> Andros  Is., Bahamas
> >> Talk  sense  to a fool and he calls you foolish.  
> >> - Euripides (484  BC - 406 BC)
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From:   owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
> >>  [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of  
> Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51   AM
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject:  Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >>
> >>  
> >> I did  not know these were tried on military subs. I just  thought it was
> a
> >> good idea  to be able
> >>  
> >> to  stop quicker.
> >> 
> >> I do   think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's housing

> >> would be  best for
> >> 
> >> my   needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be quite complicated
> and 
> >> slower  than
> >> 
> >> I  would  like.
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> >>  Dean
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> >>  
> >> In a  message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 
> >> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> >> 
> >> Dean, 
> >>
> >> I found a couple more  items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of  the
> >> flaps  open. I had one a while  back.
> >>
> >> 
> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
> >>  ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> >> "The  parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's  fairwater
> >>  and successfully streamed while the ship was  cruising submerged. The
> >> resulting
> >>  deceleration  curves indicated that such a system effectively aided in
> >>   emergency recovery."
> >>  Project "Bailout" might not have been  the most successful of Albacore's
> >>  tests but it certainly  showed some creativity was at work."
> >> 
> >>   http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >> 
> >>  Regards,
> >> Brent  Hartwig
> >>  
> >>  ____________________________________
> >> 
> >>  From:  brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> >> To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject:  [PSUBS-MAILIST]  Stopping Flaps
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24   -0700
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >>
> >> You could  install some sort of stopping flaps  (speed brakes) on both
> sides 
> >> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of  your hull.  Much like a
> US Navy
> >> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them  with  hydraulics or adapted
> electric
> >> actuators starting with  a unit like the Lenco  Trim Tab actuators.
> >>
> >> I've  been planning on having this type or braking  system on my winged 
> >> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the   training edge of
> the wings.
> >> One opening up, and one down at the  same  time.
> >> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the  Albacore featured a
> >>  tear-drop shaped hull, new diving  controls, a dorsal rudder and a new
> >>  high-yield steel for  her pressure hull. In addition, the Navy, at one
> time
> >>  or  another, experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a 
> >>  drag chute, camouflage paint and three different  arrangements of stern
> >>  control surfaces.
> >> The NSF  report ignited debate within Navy circles over a variety of
> >>   issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs. singles, and the
> sacrifice 
> >>  of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of the 
> recommendations
> >>  and ensuing debate was the U.S.S.  Albacore.
> >> 
> >> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and  enlarged and the boat
> >>  was outfitted with speed brakes.  These brakes - another concept borrowed
> >>  from aviation -  technology, consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the
> >>  after  part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened into

> >>  the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid  stop."
> >>
> >>   http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >>  
> >>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
> >>  
> >> Regards,
> >> Brent  Hartwig
> >>   
> >> ____________________________________
> >>  
> >> From:  Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008  18:55:44 -0400
> >> Subject: Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air  Tanks
> >> To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank  I am using 12hp for my main  propulsion. I gave up trying to
> calculate
> >> speed  but I  should have
> >> 
> >> plenty.  The reason for so  much maneuverability is the bottom of Lake
> >> Superior many   granite boulders
> >> 
> >> etc.  I will need to  travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the Lake.
> I am
> >>   thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
> >> 
> >> bottom   but at 6 knots or so when one of those big beast jumps up in
> front of 
> >> me, I  am going to need
> >> 
> >>  options.  A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit my 
> needs.
> >> I may  even have an
> >> 
> >>  emergency  sea anchor deployment for quick stops. Reverting back to my 
> drag
> >> racing  days.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I  loved the dry dive video. I learned  much watching it maneuver I have
> >> greater  confidence that  my
> >> 
> >> efforts  should yield the kind of  performance I am looking for. Not to
> >> mention it  oughta be a  real
> >> 
> >> hoot  to drive  hehehhe
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> >>  Dean
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> >>  
> >> In  a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 
> >> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Hi  Dean. I think you're chasing the  right idea with front and back dive 
> >> planes. I had  considered that but let it go because of the extra work. It
>  just 
> >> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if you  have 
> enough
> >> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry  dive" videos? With  the
> center
> >> mounted dive planes the sub  stays level when ascending/diving  but it
> would be nice
> >> to  be able to angle the sub just with the dive  planes. Like you say,
> much 
> >> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd  have to get  to make the
> dive
> >> planes overcome the front/back balance,  but  if it's close enough to
> neutral, it
> >> may not take that  much power. 
> >> 
> >> Twin  trim tanks front  and back with a transfer pump would help if the
> pump
> >> was   able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight would
> be  
> >> less trouble to make.  I will be able to shift the seat  forward and 
> backward a
> >> little and I'm hoping that will give  me a little angle change.  Damn, I
> wanna
> >> get this thing wet  soon! Frank  D.
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  
> >>  ____________________________________
> >> 
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  
> >>  ____________________________________
> >> 
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  
> >>  ____________________________________
> >> 
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> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
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