RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

Dean,

You don’t have to tow the fish on the bottom. There are two differing thoughts on this issue by the two co-developers of the original side scan unit, Marty Klein and Doc. Edgerton. Marty says tow near the bottom while Doc towed near the surface.

R/Jay

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

- Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:39 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

I have thought about these, the price range is doable. How well do they work at a

depth of say 350'.? the fish should be fairly easy to construct.

At one time thought about towing one with the sub, but not very hard

Dean

In a message dated 8/29/2008 10:39:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:

Dean,

Excellent results are being had with the Hummingbird unit (model 977 I think). You have to build your towfish (Carsten had a spare for sale) and add some cable (up to 300 ft.). You should be able to do all of this I think for under $1500.

R/Jay

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

Side scan for sure would be Ideal. Budget will hinder me on this one. Seems like last I new

a unit that would do the job is much more than I will have in the entire sub.

I have worked with our local search and Rescue with around a $100,000 unit and it would be

nice. heheh more toys

Dean

In a message dated 8/29/2008 9:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ag@desertstar.com writes:

Dean,

You may want to consider doing initial acquisition of a target with a side scan from the surface.
Cheaper and you can go faster. Then break out the sub when you want to explore/document a target in
detail. Perhaps not as fun as 100% sub, but will probably be quicker.

Hope you find some great wrecks.

-a

-----Original message-----
From: Recon1st@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:01 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

> Hi Ian my goal of 6kts is because of the reason for building.
> I want to explore Lake Superior. From what I can tell from soundings, most
> of the bottom is
> featureless flat bottom. Thousands of ship wrecks etc and I want to find and
> document at
> least one.
>
> So the real reason is my age. Lake Superior is large and there is so little
> time.
>
> Visibility is good up to 100' or so, and I would like to cruise above the
> bottom 20 30 feet, to view
> the maximum area. I do have general areas that some of the more famous ones
> went
> missing, but once again a lot of ground to cover and mostly boring.
>
> Many good points have been raised about brakes and I think I understand the
> concerns.
> My best safety procedure is not to tread in waters deeper than 350'. I
> totally understand
> that this is a lot of speed and possibly dangerous.
>
> Speed will only be used when I feel safe doing so, and for sure a good look
> at the search
> area with surface sonar will be standard operating.
>
> Forward searching sonar is a must for avoidance, reverse thrust and very
> quick maneuverability are
> my other solutions. Murky water would be a complete NO NO
>
> Besides all else I am going to paint it pretty and will not stand for any
> scratches
>
> Dean
>
>
> In a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> irox@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> kind of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea:   If you plan to travel at
> 6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver the required thrust to get
> you to that speed. So, why not just select a motor which can deliver 4x
> (or what ever multipler is appropriate) the force you need and have a
> "full emergency reverse" button which would use the full power of the motor
> to slow the sub down - idealy the emergency reverse speed would cut off
> after a certain period. You would only ever use at maximum 1/4 power for
> non-emergency operations. We know reverse works and this would involve
> only beefing up components that are already going to be used (i.e., no
> new inventions, research and risk required).
>
> I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this was already discussed.
>
> Dean, what's the reason the sub needs to travel so fast?
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Andrew Goldstein <ag@desertstar.com>
> >Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00 AM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >
> >The following should be filed under "insane" and not attempted without A
> LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of discussion,
> >
> >A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced dynamics and low inertia,
> which makes systems which are not viable on a large sub possibly interesting.
> Think deep flight vs an SSN....
> >
> >If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems that it may be
> possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some
> >regulators and a control manifold inside the hull. These extra bottles
> could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a redundant ballast
> blow system. Or in an emergency move a valve on the manifold and blow A LOT
> of air forward of the sub.
> >An air jet break.   It has the added benefit that if you design it wrong
> you may instead get aft firing torpedoes :)
> >
> >-a
> >
> >
> >-----Original message-----
> >From: Recon1st@aol.com
> >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:48:58 -0700
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >
> >> R/Jay I understand this problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme
> >> eminent collision would this
> >> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of a collision. If ever
> deployed
> >> surfacing is required.
> >> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder.
> >>
> >> The one scenario I can think of that would not be a good idea to deploy
> >> would be running into a
> >> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up. But for the
> >> boulder that will jump up
> >> and smack me, I do think this is a viable solution.
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> >> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >> You have to be concerned with the chute fouling your propulsion/steering
>
> >> motors. A big sub could just shred the drogue while you could lose
> propulsion
> >> just when you need it most. Remember that the Navy decided that drogues
> and
> >> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and stuck   with operating
> >> within the envelope.
> >> R/Jay
> >>
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jay K. Jeffries
> >> Andros Is., Bahamas
> >> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
> >> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
> >>
> >>
> >> From:   owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
> Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51   AM
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >>
> >>
> >> I did not know these were tried on military subs. I just thought it was
> a
> >> good idea to be able
> >>
> >> to stop quicker.
> >>
> >> I do   think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's housing
>
> >> would be best for
> >>
> >> my   needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be quite complicated
> and
> >> slower than
> >>
> >> I would like.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> >> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >>
> >> I found a couple more items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of the
> >> flaps open. I had one a while back.
> >>
> >>
> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
> >> ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> >> "The parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's fairwater
> >> and successfully streamed while the ship was cruising submerged. The
> >> resulting
> >> deceleration curves indicated that such a system effectively aided in
> >>   emergency recovery."
> >> Project "Bailout" might not have been the most successful of Albacore's
> >> tests but it certainly showed some creativity was at work."
> >>
> >>   http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Brent Hartwig
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24   -0700
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >>
> >> You could install some sort of stopping flaps (speed brakes) on both
> sides
> >> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of your hull. Much like a
> US Navy
> >> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them with hydraulics or adapted
> electric
> >> actuators starting with a unit like the Lenco Trim Tab actuators.
> >>
> >> I've been planning on having this type or braking system on my winged
> >> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the   training edge of
> the wings.
> >> One opening up, and one down at the same time.
> >> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the Albacore featured a
> >> tear-drop shaped hull, new diving controls, a dorsal rudder and a new
> >> high-yield steel for her pressure hull. In addition, the Navy, at one
> time
> >> or another, experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a
> >> drag chute, camouflage paint and three different arrangements of stern
> >> control surfaces.
> >> The NSF report ignited debate within Navy circles over a variety of
> >>   issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs. singles, and the
> sacrifice
> >> of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of the
> recommendations
> >> and ensuing debate was the U.S.S. Albacore.
> >>
> >> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and enlarged and the boat
> >> was outfitted with speed brakes. These brakes - another concept borrowed
> >> from aviation - technology, consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the
> >> after part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened into
>
> >> the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid stop."
> >>
> >>   http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >>
> >>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Brent Hartwig
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> From: Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:55:44 -0400
> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Tanks
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank I am using 12hp for my main propulsion. I gave up trying to
> calculate
> >> speed but I should have
> >>
> >> plenty. The reason for so much maneuverability is the bottom of Lake
> >> Superior many   granite boulders
> >>
> >> etc. I will need to travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the Lake.
> I am
> >>   thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
> >>
> >> bottom   but at 6 knots or so when one of those big beast jumps up in
> front of
> >> me, I am going to need
> >>
> >> options. A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit my
> needs.
> >> I may even have an
> >>
> >> emergency sea anchor deployment for quick stops. Reverting back to my
> drag
> >> racing days.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I loved the dry dive video. I learned much watching it maneuver I have
> >> greater confidence that my
> >>
> >> efforts should yield the kind of performance I am looking for. Not to
> >> mention it oughta be a real
> >>
> >> hoot to drive hehehhe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> >> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Dean. I think you're chasing the right idea with front and back dive
> >> planes. I had considered that but let it go because of the extra work. It
> just
> >> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if you have
> enough
> >> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry dive" videos? With the
> center
> >> mounted dive planes the sub stays level when ascending/diving but it
> would be nice
> >> to be able to angle the sub just with the dive planes. Like you say,
> much
> >> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd have to get to make the
> dive
> >> planes overcome the front/back balance, but if it's close enough to
> neutral, it
> >> may not take that much power.
> >>
> >> Twin trim tanks front and back with a transfer pump would help if the
> pump
> >> was   able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight would
> be
> >> less trouble to make. I will be able to shift the seat forward and
> backward a
> >> little and I'm hoping that will give me a little angle change. Damn, I
> wanna
> >> get this thing wet soon! Frank D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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