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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2010 PSUBS Conference - Ft. Pierce, FL
Jon,
Who ended up getting Webby's (Maynard's) surface vessel "Tender Nellie"? If it was someone in Florida, maybe we could
persuade them to bring that!
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw@psubs.org>
To: personal submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:14:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2010 PSUBS Conference - Ft. Pierce, FL
Alec,
From what I know right now, I think sub owners are going to have to
make a tough decision regarding transportation of their vessels to the
convention. As you pointed out, a barge or ship is essential for ocean
diving, but the fact is that at this moment we simply do not have
confirmation of such services being available. So we enter a "chicken
and egg" situation where we can't set pricing, plan events, and set
schedules because we don't have confirmation on a barge; but we know we
have to solidify the planning, pricing, and events because we only have
four months to go and people are asking for details so they can start
planning their vacations, flights, and finances for attendance.
Hiring a barge or vessel that is large enough to accommodate a number of
subs appears to be out of the question. I did inquire and got a price
of $8,000/day not including fuel, which would be $400.00 each if spread
among 20 people (not including fuel costs). I inquired a few weeks
ago for a preliminary count of subs and people who would be attending.
We have only two confirmations for working, diveable, subs which are
Alec and Cliff. All others were a maybe. Some because they are still
under construction or repair, others because attendance plans were still
up in the air. This is NO CRITIQUE against those who could not commit
to bringing their sub at this time, however for planning purposes which
has to be done now we cannot count "maybe" responses when considering
entering a contract with something as expensive as a commercial barge
operator. So run the numbers any way you like considering two definite
diveable subs and the per person cost just doesn't seem to be reasonable
for hiring a barge. We could certainly do a poll to find out how much
people would be willing to pay individually to get on a barge to see if
it would be feasible to hire one.
The good news is that we do have a member with a relative who has access
to a barge in the area which may in fact turn out to be affordable.
However, for numerous reasons (and good ones I might add) we simply have
not been able to confirm its availability. At the same time, we've
gotten to the point where we have to start making definitive decisions
on events and pricing so that members can start making their travel
arrangements. So I think I speak correctly for the planners, that at
this specific moment because we have no confirmation of a barge or
vessel that can carry us to open water, we have to assume for planning
purposes that it will not be possible and we will be limited to diving
in the turning basin.
Now, having said that, we have not given up trying to get a barge. If
we can get one for a reasonable price one, two, or even three months
from now, then we will do that if people are still committed to bringing
their subs to the event. But with only two subs committed to attend,
it's questionable how many people would be able to participate in actual
diving. That then begs the question, how much are people willing to pay
to watch sub-ops from the deck of the barge?
Hopefully you can see the variables involved here that make planning
extremely difficult when trying to coordinate this type of event. This
is why not much info has been forthcoming about the convention, however
I believe the committee feels that it is time to proceed with planning
so that people can decide if they want to attend or not based upon what
we can definitively offer for events. And with apologies for repetitive
statements, because we have no commitment for a barge at this time we
are planning events as if it will not be available at all. The
alternative of advertising barge operations in the "hope" of having one
available, having subs and people attend because that is the "big draw",
and then showing up only to find out there is no barge available is not
a viable option. If it were me in that situation, I would be severely
"pissed-off" at the organizers, and I simply won't allow that to happen
to any of our PSUBS members. I know the other committee members feel
the same way.
I think everyone shares your enthusiasm for sub-diving, however the
convention is intentionally planned to offer a wide-range of events to
reach a wide-range of interests. While sub-diving is always a goal and
when available justifies biasing the allocation of time, the seminar day
where we have formal presentations from each other and guest speakers is
equally important and provides an opportunity for attendees to have a
one-on-one experience with people they likely would not otherwise have
access to. Think about it, we've not only had speakers such as Joan
Stachiw, Phil Nuytten, and George Kittredge attend the event; we've sat
down and broken bread with them. Cliff Redus's presentation on
syntactic foam was, I think, one of the better technical presentations
I've seen and extremely valuable. Long sub-diving days present their
own unique challenges, primary among them being the long wait for a
non-owner to catch a ride. What do they do before/after their dive?
Even in Vancouver with some of the worlds best dive vehicles available,
we found that numerous people left the area after completing their
dive. Some people can only watch operations for so long. Add in the
heat and humidity of Florida in summer and we would soon have a
fractured group off trying to entertain themselves while a smaller group
indulged in dive-operations. As we can see from the commitment of only
two private subs this year, the bulk of convention attendees either do
not own a sub or can not bring their sub to the event. Without more
subs to accommodate more people, we cannot have a successful convention
with sub-diving as the primary event.
By looking at past conventions in terms of private sub-attendance, we
can see a pattern has evolved. Essentially, anytime we go to one of the
corners of the continent such as Maine, Oregon, Vancouver, Florida, we
have low sub-attendance. No private subs in Vancouver, one in Maine
(thanks to Kittredge), two in Florida, none in Oregon, two in NH. When
we went to more centralized locations we saw much higher submarine
attendance. In Michigan we saw six private submarines, and in
Pennsylvania we saw six subs attending. Clearly, the corners of the
continent make private submarine attendance much more difficult to
secure. Perhaps this is enough evidence to cause us to look for future
conventions to be held in a more central geographic location that makes
transportation of submarines easier for everyone. In fact, it might
make sense to have the convention continually in the same location if we
can find a spot that offers all the services we need. The MTSMUV for
example, always have their conventions in New Orleans. Nothing would
stop us from changing the location for a special reason (ie vancouver).
If sub-attendance is important, then I think this is a change we are
going to have to make. While ocean diving is attractive and desirable,
the reality is that from a practical perspective it is difficult to plan
and manage due to the high costs required for surface support.
This is a good discussion for us to continue having. Conventions should
be something we continue to modify as necessary.
Jon
Smyth, Alec wrote:
> Hi Jay and Vance,
>
> First of all thanks for all the hard work! I just wanted to submit a
> couple of comments for your consideration. What makes this convention
> really, really special in my view is the prospect of ocean dives from
> a proper platform, because of my bad experiences in Florida attempting
> to tow the sub to dive sites. In discussions with other sub owners, I
> note they're all really interested in the dive opportunities, and I
> suspect the sentiment may be shared by those without subs. We will
> surely be offering rides, and even if I had no sub and no ride I'd
> rather spend the day in the warm water snorkeling or diving around
> subs than watching a slide show, no matter how interesting the slide
> show. Particularly after all this snow. But I digress, I have two
> suggestions:
>
> 1. You may want to bias the allocation of time in the agenda
> more toward sub operations relative to conventions we've had in the
> past. Not just because the ocean is more interesting than a lake and
> infinitely more appealing than a hotel conference room, but also
> because we're likely to get a lot more subs. More subs mean more
> time required for prepping, launching, etc. We're not quite as
> efficient as Phil's pit crew.
>
> 2. A barge is ESSENTIAL, to the point I wonder whether I should
> even take the sub if there wasn't one. That sounds a bit dramatic, so
> I should explain why. A K250 has 8" of freeboard at best, and you can
> open the hatch for quick ventilation in good conditions, but switching
> crew afloat on open water is downright dangerous. I could do solo tow
> dives, but couldn't switch places with anyone or get passengers on or
> off. That would be rather selfish at a meeting of friends, to just go
> disappearing on my own all day, so I'd confine myself to the turning
> basin where others might share the experience. Then consider Cliff's
> R300. From photos, I think he may have even less freeboard and be
> unable to even open the hatch for ventilation in any sort of wave
> condition. In July temperatures, he'd roast during a tow before
> reaching a dive site. So he too would be confined to the basin and
> wouldn't even have the option of a tow dive. I just wonder if sub
> owners would trailer for thousands of miles to end up in a basin.
>
> Maybe I'm way off base here, and I'd invite others to let me know if
> they think so. Pardon my enthusiasm for the sub dives, but you may
> recall from that article about the last convention -- I'm the
> excitable guy who pees in his lederhosen at the prospect of diving his
> sub!
>
> :)
>
> Alec
>
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--
Al Secor
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