Re: ADMIRAL ON DECK - PLEASE READ

[Ray Keefer <Ray.Keefer@eng.Sun.COM>]

Hi Luise,

Well, I did already comment on this issue. Check my mail: 

	Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:57:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
	Subject: Re: psubs "flame war" secret 

I had spent hours composing as polite and non-critical letter as I could
suggesting that the purpose of this group was to discuss Psubs. The response
was completely all out of proportion to my mail. Culimating in the threat
of law suit if every comment that this person ever made was not deleted
from the archive.

The threat of law suit was aimed at ADR in general and at ME in particular.
I was singled out I think due to several things.

1. I was dumb enough to think it was a great idea that everyone should now
   where everone lived. The idea was that the Psubers close enough to others
   could pool talents and resources. So I had stated where I lived and this
   person knew my name and where to located me to target a suit against me.

2. I was bold enough to state that the purpose of this group was to discuss
   Psubs. Granted I am occasionally guilting in sending what I might think
   as humorous mail, but this person was taking the group way off topic,
   taking others with him.

3. I was the defacto web master so I was somehow the man to target a law
   suit against.

This episode was personally painful. I always knew the threat of being sued
over some advice was possible if someone got hurt. But over politely stating
the purpose of this group was to discuss Psubs!!!???? 

I almost left the group. I am sure if I did at the time the web site would
of died as well. The only reason I stayed on was the hope that things would
blow over and get better. Now a bad wound is being openned up again. Ouch.

As for comments that I have been silent on this issue. I was on vacation and
could only log on briefly to read the 400+ psubs e-mail messages in my
inbox. Sorry I didn't happen to find the ones in particular to this issue
and reply... wait a minute, I did reply, look at the above email reference.

As for Jon Wallace's position. Yes, it is worded strongly. He is probably 
just as tired of this issue as I am. 

Please the purpose of this site is to discuss Psubs. Can we get back on topic
and drop this thread. Please.

Thanks,
Ray

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Jonathan Wallace <jon@weare.nh.us>
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: IMPORTANT MESSAGE - PLEASE READ
> >Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 03:54:14 -0400
> >
> >To all participants.
> >
> >I've heard enough of the insinuations and accusations suggesting myself,
> >Ray Keefer, or anyone else is conducting some kind of cover up relating to
> >anything on the PSUBS web site or mailing list.
> >
> >Regardless of the fact that a number of people who lived through the 
> >experience
> >have explained in detail the circumstances surrounding the missing 
> >archives,
> >the only thing you need to know, or have a right to know, is documented in
> >my note of 9/8/98:04:03 entitled "No Subject".  As that note documents and 
> >as
> >others have told you repeatedly, the author of the missing notes demanded
> >their removal under threat of suit in a court of law.  We did not initiate 
> >their
> >
> >removal, the author did.  It was not our choice to remove them, it was the
> >author of the notes who demanded his contributions be removed.
> >
> >You now have statements from Ray Keefer, myself, and multiple others
> >from this list all corroborating the same story.  You can choose to accept
> >the facts or continue to believe your own conspiracy theory, but you can 
> >not
> >waste any more of our Internet bandwidth with this nonsense.  This mailing
> >list is for the discussion of PSUBS and is not a soap box for attacks
> >against myself or anyone else.  Nor is it a resource that will be allowed
> >to be used for discussions regarding the operation or maintenance of PSUBS.
> >Ray maintains the web pages with no compensation and I maintain the web
> >server and mailing list with no compensation.  ADR picks up the tab for
> >nearly a terabyte of data transfer monthly in support of PSUBS.  For this,
> >a few people have the ungrateful arrogance to blantantly call us censors,
> >conspirators, and make accusations of cover-ups.
> >
> >Such characterizations and personal attacks are uncalled for and absolutely
> >inappropriate toward any participant of this list.  If at any time or for 
> >any
> >reason
> >you feel PSUBS is not living up to your expectations or is too dictatorial 
> >in
> >its
> >operation, please remove yourself from the mailing list immediately.  If 
> >you do
> >not know how to remove yourself, simply send a message to 
> >listmstr@psubs.org
> >and we will remove you at once.
> >
> >This topic will no longer be permitted to continue on this mailing list.
> >Attempts
> >to do so will result in the removal of the submitter from the mailing list
> >without
> >warning.
> >
> >
> >Jonathan Wallace
> >PSUBS List Owner
> >
> >
> Ray Keefer,
> I was happy to receive you recent message to us newbies and the psubs group 
> where we were "allowed" to discuss any topic in psubs archives, no name 
> calling, make personal opinions, as an open democratic list should be run.
> 
> Frankly, Jon Wallace's attached message is quite strong, and also 
> "arrogant", (which was the word he used against us psub members, in my 
> "personal" opinion) especially his last paragraph.  Being former military, 
> Jon Wallace's last statement is like the crazy Captain in the Caine Mutiny, 
> getting a little nervous and jumpy while on trial by numerous inquisitive 
> psubs members and sort of being the bully "Owner of Psubs", by terminating 
> your name from the list with no notice because one person doesn't like to 
> answer the fair questions posed by numerous "psubs members".  Why the gag 
> order as three archived messages in September are gaged including one of 
> yours?
> 
> Sounds like an Admiral of Psubs says, "Psubs members, there will be no shore 
> leave until crew moral improves!"  Ray, am I taking Jon's caustic message 
> the wrong way or what?  Your comments and wisdom, please.  Please notice, 
> I'm not discussing "the off limits topic" Jon ordered us not to discuss, I'm 
> discussing the content and lack of class of the angry message from the 
> "Owner of Psubs" to all of us little nothing guys on his list.
> 
> Ray, Your helpful, honest comments to the psubs group?  Sincerely concerned, 
>   Luise
> 
> 
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