From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 1 02:14:37 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 02:14:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1289713647-1385868484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537896122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de> <529A94B2.9050804@archivale.com> <1289713647-1385868484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537896122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D0BC7C20BBB56D-7B0-8FE81@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com> John, I had been hoping to hear your input. Was here a stack extending down from the opening to mitigate burping? -Jim there was only a man hole size opening at the lowest point of the MBT. -----Original Message----- From: subvet596 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy Hi all: When underway the Kingston valves were usually in the open position. I believe the US Fleet Boats were the last to have them. After WWII they were no longer installed, there was only a man hole size opening at the lowest point of the MBT. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Marc de Piolenc Sender: Personal_Submersibles Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:45:22 To: Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy That does have to be considered in design as well as in operation. Some sort of fluid interlock between the compressed-air valves and the Kingstons, I would think. Or a pilot valve driven by differential pressure that opens the Kingstons whenever the overpressure inside the MBT reaches a certain level. Can't think of any situation where you would want to be blowing WITHOUT having the Kingstons open. Marc On 11/30/2013 6:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > Hi Alan, > On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a > compressed air blow out system can blow away the > tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons > during blowing the tanks or have a air leak > in the in the pipe to the tanks. > > vbr Carsten > > > "Alan James" schrieb: > > Hi everyone, > While reading through some background info for the G.L. > certification document, I came across this link with a good > explanation of stability & buoyancy > http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm > There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be > unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from > surface to diving & vice versa. > This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past > the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the > submarine is at it's most vulnerable point. > This would be different for individual designs & a worry if > you dropped your emergency drop weight. > I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while > descending & liked to drop as quick as he could. > I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may > be others in the same boat. > Regards Alan > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Dec 1 03:43:37 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 08:43:37 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <201312010043773.SM06116@[66.162.33.185]> Notify the printer forthwith ! -----Original Message----- From: "Pete Niedermayr" Sent 11/30/2013 3:48:54 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & BuoyancyROVs are like phone sex- that should be on a tee shirt -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11/30/13, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013, 1:16 PM Jon and all, The A-boat sail was pirated directly from the Pisces mold and serves as a splash guard for emergency egress on the surface. The initial MBT design was for a wraparound set of tanks, which were expanded to the broad topped triple tank setup that is still on board today. Maybe that was an ABS requirement for larger tanks. I don't know. You can't see it, but the primary tanks are U-shaped on the bottom and mostly flat on top. They straddle the hull with a central vent each and stainless steel straps running from one side to the other and out the bottom openings to bolt to the pressure hull. Perry designed their conning tower as a primary observation point for the pilot and built accordingly. With Aquarius, it was definitely secondary (used mostly around structure and while surfacing or on the surface, and often with creative invective as the ports are so damned small). Remember the old cameras? A compact one was the size of an Aladdin thermos, and the pan and tilt units were big and clunky and expensive. These days, small cameras can do a lot of that from-the-top kind of viewing. The A-boat sail itself is screwed down to the deck and is completely free flooding, essentially open all the way around to the space under and between the MBTs under the outer skin. The open portion in back of the conning tower provides a route for the aft lift strap, which is why you usually see the lift rig sort of draped out of the sail and onto the deck forward. If you look carefully, you can see the pressure hull and a ring stiffener back there. A side note is that the same sail drained through rubber scuppers on a Pisces. The idea was that you after you were on the surface, it would drain down enough to allow the crow to open the hatch in an emergency. A lap full of water was probably eminent if you had to do it, but you also probably wouldn't lose the sub. I ran Leo for a season (Pisces with a big window) but never had the need to see if the scuppers were effective. That's a good thing. Eventually, we replaced the main hatch with a regular conning tower built by Hyco and did away with the sail entirely, which was an infinite improvement for the close observation work in bad conditions we often did in the Gulf of Mexico where we were operating. These days, they have cameras and light systems that can see more than what the US Navy calls the Mark I Human Eyeball, but back then, I was all there was, and no matter what kind of equipment we had, I always wanted to SEE stuff for myself. Still do, come to that. If I wasn't so stubborn about it, I'd probably be running ROVs, which isn't any fun at all in comparison. Like our Dr. Phil says, ROVs are like phone sex. Okay in a pinch, but nothing like the real thing. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy Excellent point and great photo to illustrate it.? I notice that the sail on Nutyco's Aquarius is completely vacant aft of the hatch to quickly release trapped water and of course doubles to provide easy access for entry.? Also the deck/ballast is high (at the hatch thru-hull) and very wide providing excellent stability. On 11/30/2013 5:51 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: Hi Alan, additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing. ? There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail. If you surface fast and with to small opening in the bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can? move the?CG so high that the sub?tends to get heavy side angles during surfacing until the water rush out.? The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing in the sail?and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water but for this sub the extra weight was not critical. But on a military one with there tons of water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing it can be a problem. By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". On dive station or surfaced. And great openings in the bottom of the sail. Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks. On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a compressed air blow out system can blow away the tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons during blowing the tanks or have a air leak in the in the pipe to the tanks. vbr Carsten? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From subvet596 at optonline.net Sun Dec 1 06:16:53 2013 From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 11:16:53 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0BC7C20BBB56D-7B0-8FE81@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com> References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de> <529A94B2.9050804@archivale.com> <1289713647-1385868484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537896122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> <8D0BC7C20BBB56D-7B0-8FE81@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1918313402-1385896615-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1835805300-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> No! John K. (202) 414-1000 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sender: Personal_Submersibles Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 02:14:37 To: Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 1 15:34:27 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 15:34:27 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <201312010043773.SM06116@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312010043773.SM06116@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <529B9D53.1050506@psubs.org> PC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment) On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > Notify the printer forthwith ! > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: icon1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 121198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Dec 1 15:57:04 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 14:57:04 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: Love it!!! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace wrote:PC2014 tee-shirt logo???? (see attachment) On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > Notify the printer forthwith ! > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 1 16:10:36 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 13:10:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1385932236.82295.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> brilliant Jon Hank On Sunday, December 1, 2013 1:57:31 PM, swaters wrote: Love it!!! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Jon Wallace wrote: PC2014 tee-shirt logo???? (see attachment) On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > Notify the printer forthwith ! > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 16:32:44 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 13:32:44 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <529B9D53.1050506@psubs.org> References: <201312010043773.SM06116@66.162.33.185> <529B9D53.1050506@psubs.org> Message-ID: Awesome!, I will take a large. On Dec 1, 2013 12:35 PM, "Jon Wallace" wrote: > PC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment) > > On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > >> Notify the printer forthwith ! >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Dec 1 16:41:59 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 21:41:59 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <201312011341726.SM03264@[66.162.33.185]> Hmm, maybe ROV's aren't so bad ! -----Original Message----- From: "Jon Wallace" Sent 12/1/2013 12:34:27 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & BuoyancyPC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment) On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > Notify the printer forthwith ! > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Dec 1 16:43:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 01 Dec 2013 21:43 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <529B9D53.1050506@psubs.org> References: <201312010043773.SM06116@[66.162.33.185]> <529B9D53.1050506@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1VnEoH-08ZGUK0@fwd21.t-online.de> Need one as metal plate for my Galley.. "Jon Wallace" schrieb: > PC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment) > > On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > > Notify the printer forthwith ! > > > > -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 1 17:58:46 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:58:46 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballasting & stability Message-ID: <0F5F3F37-7E71-4ED3-8AA8-F5F075235DCB@yahoo.com> On a more mundane topic, I was looking at these lift bags as a way to conform to classification requirements for surface flotation when a ballast tank is damaged. http://www.carterbag.com/encpill.html If you do an image search on "closed lift bags" you will see a lot of variations. I'm not sure if they would be an acceptable solution with G.L., but there are classified submersibles that use lift bags enclosed in pipes as their main ballast tanks. http://www.seamagine.com/ Aside from aiding exit from a submersible with damaged ballasts they could supply extra lift at depth if ensnared & on the surface, help with entry / exit in rough conditions. ( could have done with some in Florida ) I envisage a set up having one either side of the hull under a hatch that pops open as the bags expand. I think Glen from South Africa brought this up a few years back but not in the context of damaged or malfunctioning ballast tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 1 18:37:25 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 15:37:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballasting & stability In-Reply-To: <0F5F3F37-7E71-4ED3-8AA8-F5F075235DCB@yahoo.com> References: <0F5F3F37-7E71-4ED3-8AA8-F5F075235DCB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1385941045.24819.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, When I was struggling to get my small sub stable enough at the surface (test pool)? I bought two ballast bags on e bay? with the intention of doing exactly what your talking about.? The bags are very good quality for the money.? They are ballast bags for wake boats.? Hank On Sunday, December 1, 2013 3:59:08 PM, Alan wrote: On a more mundane topic, I was looking at these lift bags as a way to conform to classification requirements for surface flotation when a ballast tank is damaged. http://www.carterbag.com/encpill.html If you do an image search on "closed lift bags" you will see a lot of variations. I'm not sure if they would be an acceptable solution with G.L., but there are classified submersibles that use lift bags enclosed in pipes as their main ballast tanks. http://www.seamagine.com/ Aside from aiding exit from a submersible with damaged ballasts they could supply extra lift at depth if ensnared & on the surface, help with entry / exit in? rough?conditions. ( could have done with some in Florida ) I envisage a set up having one either side of the hull under a hatch that pops open as the bags expand. I think Glen from South Africa brought this up a few years back but not in the context of damaged or malfunctioning ballast tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 1 18:46:12 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 15:46:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1VnEoH-08ZGUK0@fwd21.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1385941572.69859.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Nice work!

I wonder now if there was any correlation between marital status and nose art in WWII? :)

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 19:16:59 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:16:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1385941572.69859.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1VnEoH-08ZGUK0@fwd21.t-online.de> <1385941572.69859.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Haha, very nice Jon! We need to make sure Phil sees that one. ~ Douglas S. On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Nice work! > > I wonder now if there was any correlation between marital status and nose > art in WWII? :) > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * MerlinSub at t-online.de ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy > * Sent: * Sun, Dec 1, 2013 9:43:00 PM > > Need one as metal plate for my Galley.. > > "Jon Wallace" schrieb: > > PC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment) > > > > On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote: > > > Notify the printer forthwith ! > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 1 23:12:27 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 23:12:27 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wireless Trolling Motor Controllers? In-Reply-To: <1385596856.99019.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <000301ceeb12$21044630$630cd290$@indy.rr.com> <1385596856.99019.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <529C08AB.8030209@psubs.org> Yes, my motor controllers can take radio input from a standard 5 or 6 channel RC Controller and Receiver. In fact it is cited as being the easiest input option to setup (the others being PWM or Analog). I had not considered the benefits of a radio-controlled PSUB in terms of launch/recovery however I can see how it would certainly come in handy. Might need an external antenna on the sub. Jon On 11/27/2013 7:00 PM, Alan James wrote: > Steve, > I have a blue tooth wireless option on my ambient. > It went in to a spasm on a pre dive trial, with motors & ballast tank > fill & vent > turning on & off, so I have lost faith in it. It has the potential to > go out & do > it's own unmanned dive. > It is a great option for launching. I was leaving the sub in the water > untethered > while I parked the car, & then backing the sub in on the remote to board; > also was driving it on to the trailer remotely. > Handy & great party trick with an audience watching. I think Jon was > looking > at some motor controllers with a remote option a while back. > Alan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Steve McQueen > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:43 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wireless Trolling Motor Controllers? > > All, just came across something interesting. Apparently there are > some "wireless" controller/trolling motor packages. > http://motorguide.factoryoutletstore.com/Category/CategoryListNoCache.aspx?category_id=0&search_term=wireless%20motors > While this control arrangement seems to have some limits it also might > have some applications. I am not sure yet what type of "wireless" > technology it is using (RF?). Maybe something that can be used in psubs? > I've just not heard these products discussed and was wondering if > anyone had investigated more? > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Mon Dec 2 11:35:30 2013 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 11:35:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <244C36DFB5004109B9F537957B97C240@PhillPC> References: <1VnEoH-08ZGUK0@fwd21.t-online.de> <1385941572.69859.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <244C36DFB5004109B9F537957B97C240@PhillPC> Message-ID: <529CB6D2.4030209@ohiohills.com> On 11/25/2013 1:49 AM, Phil Nuytten wrote: > Good one, guys! I wonder how many times I've used that simile in pro > manned-vehicle lectures in various parts of the world -- a lot , for > sure. . .and it never fails to get a laugh and then a nod of > understanding. In 1998 I found that someone had called using ROVs "hunting for coins from Zeppelin the dark." I'll see if I can find the whole thing. (I wrote a short paper comparing ROVs and manned submersibles, for a class, and found that the teacher's husband was an engineer who had spent his life promoting remote sensing of all sorts.) Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Mon Dec 2 11:54:53 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 16:54:53 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Circuit Breaker Question Message-ID: Hi All, Ive got 3 of these minn kota breakers installed. They seem a standard thing as my local shop sells them under a different brand. http://www.amazon.com/MinnKota-MKR-19-Circuit-Breaker-Waterproof/dp/B001PTHKSK Anyway, they have the manual reset button, which is fine, but there is no "test" button. Id like to be able to flick them off, temporarily without having to unbolt the cables. The reason for this is due to the poor location of the motor controllers, i keep knocking the motors on when i dont want them. i will change that over the winter but for now, switching the breakers off temporarily would help. Does anyone have any ideas on how to trip them safely? http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page19348.htm kind regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 2 12:22:40 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:22:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Circuit Breaker Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0BD9A3D1184CD-E48-9C050@webmail-m203.sysops.aol.com> James, Do you have a convenient location to install cutoff switches? I have the aircraft type to prevent accidental activation. Jim -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 10:55 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Circuit Breaker Question Hi All, Ive got 3 of these minn kota breakers installed. They seem a standard thing as my local shop sells them under a different brand. http://www.amazon.com/MinnKota-MKR-19-Circuit-Breaker-Waterproof/dp/B001PTHKSK Anyway, they have the manual reset button, which is fine, but there is no "test" button. Id like to be able to flick them off, temporarily without having to unbolt the cables. The reason for this is due to the poor location of the motor controllers, i keep knocking the motors on when i dont want them. i will change that over the winter but for now, switching the breakers off temporarily would help. Does anyone have any ideas on how to trip them safely? http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page19348.htm kind regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Mon Dec 2 12:38:29 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 17:38:29 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Circuit Breaker Question In-Reply-To: <8D0BD9A3D1184CD-E48-9C050@webmail-m203.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BD9A3D1184CD-E48-9C050@webmail-m203.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, I just wanted a quick and dirty way of switching them off without having to do any work! What im going to do (over the winter) is put on\off push buttons on the motor handles, with relays to the controllers. Then i can "drive" while actually holding the handles. At the moment its really awyward to steer and control motor speed at the same time. James On 2 December 2013 17:22, wrote: > James, > Do you have a convenient location to install cutoff switches? I have the > aircraft type to prevent accidental activation. > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: James Frankland > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 10:55 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Circuit Breaker Question > > Hi All, > > Ive got 3 of these minn kota breakers installed. They seem a standard > thing as my local shop sells them under a different brand. > > > http://www.amazon.com/MinnKota-MKR-19-Circuit-Breaker-Waterproof/dp/B001PTHKSK > > Anyway, they have the manual reset button, which is fine, but there is no > "test" button. Id like to be able to flick them off, temporarily without > having to unbolt the cables. > > The reason for this is due to the poor location of the motor controllers, > i keep knocking the motors on when i dont want them. i will change that > over the winter but for now, switching the breakers off temporarily would > help. > > Does anyone have any ideas on how to trip them safely? > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page19348.htm > > kind regards > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Dec 3 13:02:17 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:02:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Message-ID: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine I-400 just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement yesterday. The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Dec 3 13:10:56 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:10:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine I-400 just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement yesterday. The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Dec 3 13:50:05 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:50:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386096605.90061.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Any one Gamma has a bushing on the end of the propeller shaft.? This bushing runs wet in the water.? The bushing is a very snug fit? ( the sub came that way).? My concern is two fold, I need to make sure the shaft tube is full of water before spinning the seal.? The tube will always be half full of water and there could be a air pocket created causing problems for the seal.? Also the water left in the tube can freeze up here in the winter.? I don't want to put drain lines to the shaft tube because I like that?if the seal fails it will take a long time for any amount of water to get past the bushing.? My idea is to fill the tube with water and and anti freeze? and install a seal outside the bushing.? The tube will always be full and if it is a bit shy, the water will push past the light seal.? What do you think Hank On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:11:16 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine?I-400 just three miles off?Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement?yesterday.? The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each.? They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty.? They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Dec 3 16:02:41 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:02:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0BE8223E77849-CF8-3744@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> This YouTube video has some brief footage of Pisces V and its discovery of the I-400. The rest is a longer documentary. There are a number of videos on YouTube is you search I-400. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4j3UHvQz_U -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine I-400 just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement yesterday. The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 17:38:20 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:38:20 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE8223E77849-CF8-3744@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE8223E77849-CF8-3744@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for bringing this to my attention Jim, this is a really cool story. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:02 PM, wrote: > This YouTube video has some brief footage of *Pisces V* and its discovery > of the *I-400*. The rest is a longer documentary. There are a number of > videos on YouTube is you search I-400. -Jim > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4j3UHvQz_U > -----Original Message----- > From: vbra676539 > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 12:11 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 > > Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jimtoddpsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 > > *Pisces V* discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine *I-400*just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery > was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for > announcement yesterday. The *I-400 *was one of just a few Japanese > aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft > each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to > avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty. They were > twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. > -Jim > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Dec 3 19:21:19 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:21:19 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <529E757F.1030902@archivale.com> There's a documentary on the I-400 class that came out some time ago and includes footage of the I-400 wreck, so this new release of information is anything but. Marc On 12/4/2013 2:02 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > /Pisces V/ discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine > /I-400/ just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however > the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State > Department for announcement yesterday. The /I-400 /was one of just a > few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light > bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, > but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per > treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. > -Jim > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Dec 3 19:42:27 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 19:42:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <529E757F.1030902@archivale.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <529E757F.1030902@archivale.com> Message-ID: <8D0BEA0D68EDEAB-1984-493E@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com> Marc, There were three subs of the I-400 class that were completed and operational out of 18 originally planned. Pisces discovered the wreck of I-401 in 2005. I think I sent a link on a documentary sometime earlier this year or perhaps last year. I-400 was just located in August, 2013. I don't believe the resting place of I-402 has been found. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Marc de Piolenc To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 There's a documentary on the I-400 class that came out some time ago and includes footage of the I-400 wreck, so this new release of information is anything but. Marc On 12/4/2013 2:02 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > /Pisces V/ discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine > /I-400/ just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however > the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State > Department for announcement yesterday. The /I-400 /was one of just a > few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light > bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, > but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per > treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. > -Jim > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From subvet596 at optonline.net Tue Dec 3 20:37:54 2013 From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 01:37:54 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BE8223E77849-CF8-3744@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE8223E77849-CF8-3744@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <662828072-1386121075-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-892878335-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> Did you know that the I-400 class was built for one reason. The attack on th Panama Canal. The first air craft sub was the British M-1 built after WWI. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sender: Personal_Submersibles Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:02:41 To: Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 04:08:25 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 01:08:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the? operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ? ?ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;?For surfaced;?a minimum?distance between metacentric height & center of gravity?of 10cm. (4")?And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy?& center?of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be?included. ?This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6?on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations.?Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference?of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull.? When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 07:36:29 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 04:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386246989.179.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan,

Very helpful, particularly with regard to failure modes and stability. The single MBT failure mode of particular interest.

I can do stability calcs on various angles of heel for a contiguous hull form, but I still have to study odd shaped underwater sections like a K-350.

Interesting stuff!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Dec 5 07:51:09 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:51:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0BFCFCD90886E-47C-C6BF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Alan, Thanks for digesting and presenting all that. The summary and comparison of ABS and Germanischer Lloyd (GL) is very helpful. Did you look at Lloyds Register (London) any? Was there something that made you gravitate toward GL instead of LR? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:09 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 08:39:14 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 02:39:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0BFCFCD90886E-47C-C6BF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0BFCFCD90886E-47C-C6BF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, No I didn't look at Lloyds London. I hadn't heard much of them with regard to submarines. Funny you should mention them as I spent several hours talking with a Greek Lady while travelling, who was an FEA expert & analysed ships for L.L. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/12/2013, at 1:51 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Alan, > Thanks for digesting and presenting all that. The summary and comparison of ABS and Germanischer Lloyd (GL) is very helpful. Did you look at Lloyds Register (London) any? Was there something that made you gravitate toward GL instead of LR? > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James > To: psubs.org > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:09 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. > There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined > in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class > notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the > operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition > and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open > for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. > ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" > whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) > In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to > be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling > angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. > There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure > hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. > When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without > water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. > There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation > of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. > Alan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 5 08:43:29 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 08:43:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <1386096605.90061.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> <1386096605.90061.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0BFD71D3A1727-1E28-D86F@webmail-m244.sysops.aol.com> Hank, I don't know about anti freeze on bushings and seals. The ultimate solution for this is to build a seal package like Perry. Basically an inner seal, a bearing, and an outer seal running in sea water. The tube is then filled with oil with an eighth inch line fed through to a pressure gauge inside the boat. If the outer seal fails, the extra pressure while submerged will show in the gauge and alert you. If the inner seal fails, then you get drippy oil. Same deal. In this case, you would replace the bushing with a bearing (to keep metallic particles out of the oil) and then mount your outboard seal on the back plate. It's a pain to set up from scratch, I imagine, but you can build the whole thing on the bench, which should make it do-able. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Vance, Any one Gamma has a bushing on the end of the propeller shaft. This bushing runs wet in the water. The bushing is a very snug fit ( the sub came that way). My concern is two fold, I need to make sure the shaft tube is full of water before spinning the seal. The tube will always be half full of water and there could be a air pocket created causing problems for the seal. Also the water left in the tube can freeze up here in the winter. I don't want to put drain lines to the shaft tube because I like that if the seal fails it will take a long time for any amount of water to get past the bushing. My idea is to fill the tube with water and and anti freeze and install a seal outside the bushing. The tube will always be full and if it is a bit shy, the water will push past the light seal. What do you think Hank On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:11:16 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine I-400 just three miles off Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement yesterday. The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each. They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty. They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 5 08:51:14 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 08:51:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma question Message-ID: <8D0BFD832E97E27-1E28-D950@webmail-m244.sysops.aol.com> Hank, It occurs to me belatedly that you might be talking about the releasable segment on Gamma (tailcone with prop and rudder). That thing has been working on Delta for nearly forty years. Having said that, how about a vent and drain pair, just a couple of 1/8" pipe plugs or male pipe to Swage fitting? You could unscrew as required and flush with an emulsifier and then light oil between uses or for winter layup. Vance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Dec 5 09:31:39 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 09:31:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0BFCFCD90886E-47C-C6BF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0BFDDD7B72BF5-47C-CFFE@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, For a long time in the US all I heard about was ABS and Lloyd's Register (London). Then I began to hear more of Germanischer Lloyd. That had to a be a very interesting conversation with the LR rep you referenced. Here's a link regarding classification societies. When you open it you can scroll down for a list of all the societies in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_society Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, No I didn't look at Lloyds London. I hadn't heard much of them with regard to submarines. Funny you should mention them as I spent several hours talking with a Greek Lady while travelling, who was an FEA expert & analysed ships for L.L. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/12/2013, at 1:51 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Alan, Thanks for digesting and presenting all that. The summary and comparison of ABS and Germanischer Lloyd (GL) is very helpful. Did you look at Lloyds Register (London) any? Was there something that made you gravitate toward GL instead of LR? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:09 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Dec 5 10:33:45 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:33:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a > lot of specifics. > There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined > in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in > the class > notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of > submersible & the > operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced > condition > and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open > for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. > ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" > whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between > metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for > submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of > gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. > (including after dropping the drop weight) > In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed > analyses of stability is to > be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of > 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 > submerged & at 6 different heeling > angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free > liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of > equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be > considered. > There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the > pressure > hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. > When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to > open without > water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. > There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with > evaluation > of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. > Alan > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 5 11:07:37 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 08:07:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 In-Reply-To: <8D0BFD71D3A1727-1E28-D86F@webmail-m244.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0BE68EFE404F7-CF8-24E9@webmail-va019.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BE6A2585153C-1F10-2989@webmail-m141.sysops.aol.com> <1386096605.90061.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0BFD71D3A1727-1E28-D86F@webmail-m244.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386259657.89245.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Vance,? Thanks' I am working on the main seal and shaft tube assembly.? My seal is right ahead of the motor as it was originally built.? I?agree, your idea?is better than trapping anti freeze in the tube.? I have already rebuilt the tail section.? All the parts for that came with Gamma in all those boxes.? Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:43:49 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, I don't know about anti freeze on bushings and seals. The ultimate solution for this is to build a seal package like Perry. Basically an inner seal, a bearing, and an outer seal running in sea water. The tube is then filled with oil with an eighth inch line fed through to a pressure gauge inside the boat. If the outer seal fails, the extra pressure while submerged will show in the gauge and alert you. If the inner seal fails, then you get drippy oil. Same deal. In this case, you would replace the bushing with a bearing (to keep metallic particles out of the oil) and then mount your outboard seal on the back plate. It's a pain to set up from scratch, I imagine, but you can build the whole thing on the bench, which should make it do-able. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Vance, Any one Gamma has a bushing on the end of the propeller shaft.? This bushing runs wet in the water.? The bushing is a very snug fit? ( the sub came that way).? My concern is two fold, I need to make sure the shaft tube is full of water before spinning the seal.? The tube will always be half full of water and there could be a air pocket created causing problems for the seal.? Also the water left in the tube can freeze up here in the winter.? I don't want to put drain lines to the shaft tube because I like that?if the seal fails it will take a long time for any amount of water to get past the bushing.? My idea is to fill the tube with water and and anti freeze? and install a seal outside the bushing.? The tube will always be full and if it is a bit shy, the water will push past the light seal.? What do you think Hank On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:11:16 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Maybe I should have gone to work for Terry Kerby when I had the chance? Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces V and I-400 Pisces V discovered the resting place of the Japanese submarine?I-400 just three miles off?Barbers Point, Hawaii in August, however the discovery was kept secret until it was cleared with the US State Department for announcement?yesterday.? The I-400 was one of just a few Japanese aircraft carrier submarines which carried three light bomber aircraft each.? They were surrendered at sea at the war's end, but later scuttled to avoid having to grant access to the Russians per treaty.? They were twin-hulled and over 400 feet long. -Jim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/japanese-submarine-world-war-ii_n_4375090.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 5 12:47:14 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:47:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> Message-ID: <8D0BFF92ADE7132-E24-FA95@webmail-d264.sysops.aol.com> Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 5 14:12:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0BFF92ADE7132-E24-FA95@webmail-d264.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> <8D0BFF92ADE7132-E24-FA95@webmail-d264.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386270751.8651.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) Hank? On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > >I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 14:14:43 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:14:43 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> Message-ID: <618654EE-B7D4-44EF-9AD4-EE35D6DC8F1C@yahoo.com> Phil, Vance, Thanks for that point. Yes if you don't comply, buy a support ship, or as I saw in " Manned Submersibles" something like a stack of inner tubes joined together around the hatch that were inflated & deflated. I wonder if the certifying agencies require a support ship & crane for a kayak? Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/11/2013, at 5:25 AM, "Phil Nuytten" wrote: > The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - > Phil > > From: Jon Wallace > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >> There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >> in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >> notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >> operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >> and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >> for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >> whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >> In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >> be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >> angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >> There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >> hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >> When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >> water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >> There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >> of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 14:41:47 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:41:47 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8DCAB667-E9FF-4E4D-B3B8-942E9CF1B57E@yahoo.com> Jon, Yes it says things like "intended seaway" & " operating area" but gives no specifics. I guess there would be a wind & sea state restriction on the classification. In a hurricane the forces on the conning tower would heel the sub over & make a mockery of any calculations. There is a statement in "manned submersibles" that seamanship Is just as important as a seaworthy boat. And good judgement regarding conditions & operation is the other side of the coin. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/12/2013, at 4:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >> There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >> in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >> notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >> operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >> and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >> for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >> whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >> In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >> be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >> angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >> There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >> hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >> When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >> water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >> There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >> of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 14:55:33 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:55:33 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0BFDDD7B72BF5-47C-CFFE@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0BFCFCD90886E-47C-C6BF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <8D0BFDDD7B72BF5-47C-CFFE@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <462196D2-D8FE-4BEB-9EA9-491C95DC5F0B@yahoo.com> Hi Jim, I haven't been able to find any L.L. Regulations for submersibles as yet. With regard to chatting with the FEA specialist; I was in a train compartment with 5 Greeks, looking dumb & thinking none of them spoke English. She was on holiday from London. Boy could she talk. She did a lot of work analysing super tankers. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/12/2013, at 3:31 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Hi Alan, > > For a long time in the US all I heard about was ABS and Lloyd's Register (London). Then I began to hear more of Germanischer Lloyd. That had to a be a very interesting conversation with the LR rep you referenced. > > Here's a link regarding classification societies. When you open it you can scroll down for a list of all the societies in the world. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_society > > Best regards, > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:39 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > Hi Jim, > No I didn't look at Lloyds London. I hadn't heard much of them with > regard to submarines. Funny you should mention them as I spent > several hours talking with a Greek Lady while travelling, who was an > FEA expert & analysed ships for L.L. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/12/2013, at 1:51 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > >> Alan, >> Thanks for digesting and presenting all that. The summary and comparison of ABS and Germanischer Lloyd (GL) is very helpful. Did you look at Lloyds Register (London) any? Was there something that made you gravitate toward GL instead of LR? >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan James >> To: psubs.org >> Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:09 am >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >> >> >> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >> There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >> in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >> notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >> operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >> and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >> for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >> whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >> In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >> be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >> angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >> There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >> hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >> When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >> water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >> There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >> of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Thu Dec 5 15:22:37 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 15:22:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386270751.8651.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org> <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC> <8D0BFF92ADE7132-E24-FA95@webmail-d264.sysops.aol.com> <1386270751.8651.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D28D94B-855C-4FB7-99E9-BDCC2AC92D6E@AOL.com> Sounds great Hank. Looking forward to seeing the results. And the inner tube, of course. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:12 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Vance, > Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. > I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. > I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Nuytten > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - > Phil > > From: Jon Wallace > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >> There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >> in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >> notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >> operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >> and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >> for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >> whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >> In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >> be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >> angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >> There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >> hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >> When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >> water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >> There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >> of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Dec 5 20:17:06 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 01:17:06 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <201312051717410.SM09664@[66.162.33.185]> It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyVance,Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-)Hank? On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote:Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim.Vance-----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyThe minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil?From:Jon WallaceSent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy? I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote:?I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics.There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard definedin the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the classnotification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced conditionand the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be openfor surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L.?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30"whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight)In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is tobe included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heelingangles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered.There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressurehull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open withoutwater coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees.There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluationof the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based.Alan???_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 5 20:23:35 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 17:23:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <201312051717410.SM09664@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) Hank? On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > >I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 21:53:19 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 21:53:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when > it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since > I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: "hank pronk" > Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > Vance, > Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my > red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in > better. > I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the > prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I > drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much > better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing > anyways. > I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am > driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. > :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that > definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Nuytten > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles > ?intended to be entered while afloat? - > Phil > > *From:* Jon Wallace > *Sent:* Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class > only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static > and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE > INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive > of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics > as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's > possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests > required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > > I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot > of specifics. > There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined > in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the > class > notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of > submersible & the > operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced > condition > and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open > for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. > ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of > 30" > whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric > height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum > distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same > as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop > weight) > In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of > stability is to > be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 > different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 > submerged & at 6 different heeling > angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid > surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & > personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. > There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the > pressure > hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. > When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open > without > water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. > There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with > evaluation > of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. > Alan > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 5 22:27:07 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 19:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads Message-ID: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This section is a summary of loads to be considered when designing your submersible. A load plan is to be submitted for the pressure hull, external loads & internal loads.?Section 4 F, table 4.2 has a summary of 35 relevant loads? & the tests?required. The tightness tests (leak test by pulling a vacuum) are? at .2 bar?below atmospheric pressure. The relationship of the nominal diving pressure ( maximum operating depth ) the test pressure & collapse diving pressure, are dependent on the depth? you build for. For instance, down to a depth of 165 ft the test depth is 1.7 times operating depth, & the designed collapse depth should be 3.2 x the maximum operating depth.?Down to 330 ft it is 1.4 & 2.4 Down to 660 ft it is? 1.25 & 2. Section 4 F, table 4.2 has a summary of 35 relevant loads & the tests required. The tightness tests (leak test by pulling a vacuum) are at .2 bar below atmospheric pressure. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 5 22:34:16 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 19:34:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, >I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: > >It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > >Brian > >-----Original Message----- >From: "hank pronk" >Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >Vance, >Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >Hank? > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >Phil > > >From: Jon Wallace >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > >On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >> >>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Dec 6 06:03:59 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 06:03:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth And the designed collapse depths would be: 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:27 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads This section is a summary of loads to be considered when designing your submersible. A load plan is to be submitted for the pressure hull, external loads & internal loads. Section 4 F, table 4.2 has a summary of 35 relevant loads & the tests required. The tightness tests (leak test by pulling a vacuum) are at .2 bar below atmospheric pressure. The relationship of the nominal diving pressure ( maximum operating depth ) the test pressure & collapse diving pressure, are dependent on the depth you build for. For instance, down to a depth of 165 ft the test depth is 1.7 times operating depth, & the designed collapse depth should be 3.2 x the maximum operating depth. Down to 330 ft it is 1.4 & 2.4 Down to 660 ft it is 1.25 & 2. Section 4 F, table 4.2 has a summary of 35 relevant loads & the tests required. The tightness tests (leak test by pulling a vacuum) are at .2 bar below atmospheric pressure. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Fri Dec 6 11:11:51 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 11:11:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> Jim, Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. Jon On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Hi Alan, > If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum > operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test > depths would be as follows: > 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth > 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth > And the designed collapse depths would be: > 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse > 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse > Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a > bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into > a deeper bracket would actually /lessen/ the requirements for test > depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? > Thanks, > Jim > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Dec 6 11:38:13 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 05:38:13 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Yes you are right. I used feet as an illustration, where they use metric pressure in their table. I like their scale system, because if you are building for a shallow depth, with a thin sectioned hull, then any small margin of error will have a bigger impact than on a thicker hull. As a simple illustration, if you were building 3mm thick & ended up 2 mm that's a 33% error, whereas if you built 10mm thick & were out by the same 1mm, that's only a 10% error. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Jim, > > Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. > > Jon > > > On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >> Hi Alan, >> >> If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: >> 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth >> 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth >> >> And the designed collapse depths would be: >> 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse >> 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse >> >> Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Dec 6 12:15:16 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:15:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D0C0BDDD2E45A9-47C-14AFE@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Jon & Alan, I have only been familiar with 1.25 test and 2.0 collapse standard, however the stepped requirements per GL make logical sense. Percentage margins at shallow depths could be a little thin compared to absolute margins as you illustrated, Alan. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 10:38 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads Hi Jim, Yes you are right. I used feet as an illustration, where they use metric pressure in their table. I like their scale system, because if you are building for a shallow depth, with a thin sectioned hull, then any small margin of error will have a bigger impact than on a thicker hull. As a simple illustration, if you were building 3mm thick & ended up 2 mm that's a 33% error, whereas if you built 10mm thick & were out by the same 1mm, that's only a 10% error. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: Jim, Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. Jon On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth And the designed collapse depths would be: 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Dec 6 12:24:49 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:24:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D0C0BF335800B9-C58-A3EE@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com> At the risk of soap boxing: Philosophically yes, but in real time, you would be building to your minimum, not your calculated thickness. If you specified 3 mm material and got something with a 2 mm spot from your supplier, I think you'd be shipping trash back to that supplier along with some strenuous WTF? commentary on the phone. You might be able to deal with a 4 mm plate, but never if it's the other way around. Same if it was 10mm. If I ordered 10 and got 9, the resultant discussions would border on downright impolite. As we were shown in Vancouver, the DW2000s are built from pentagonal segments of plate pressed to shape primarily to maximize control over thickness and form, an expensive and time consuming process which is absolutely necessary for integrity to the design. I think they are half an inch thick, which means half inch NOMINAL, as in half inch at the very least. Those are tough little hulls, capable of holding their shapes to probably twice (or more) of their operating and maybe even test depths. And I'll bet there was a lot of time spent verifying thickness with the new Aquarius type hull (Curasub) prior to rolling the first piece of steel to shape. And a lot of double checking later. In fact, I know there was, even though I wasn't there. I know because I've had a hand in building some of these things, and nobody cuts corners. Ever. It's just too critical. When you go for certification, there are no 10% errors allowed in the basic transition from drawing to fabrication. And certainly not 33%. To maintain your depth parameters, you do it right the first time, or you do it again. Period. Not a bad philosophy with momma's favorite son's backside on the line every time he goes in the water. As Alan clearly illustrated, you don't design for 125% of operating depth. You design for 200%, or maybe 250%. The 125% thing is about verifying your safety margin. George Kittredge told me once to just ignore some corrosion pits in my K-350, even though sonic mapping had shown nearly a hundred thousandths loss in three smallish areas (out of a 0.250 material thickness???). Maybe he was right for a 160 psi operating environment. That said, well...me?...I weld over-layed the hell out of them, then knocked the tops off the welds looking for porosity and to keep the bilges from looking like something Dr. Frankenstein stitched together. Wasn't happy until it was done and I had all my metal back. In my view, less is never more down where the sun don't shine. The regs keep us honest, but the steel keeps us dry. As we say in the nuclear business, "We aren't here to avoid risk, we're here to manage it." Second guessing just doesn't come into it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 11:38 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads Hi Jim, Yes you are right. I used feet as an illustration, where they use metric pressure in their table. I like their scale system, because if you are building for a shallow depth, with a thin sectioned hull, then any small margin of error will have a bigger impact than on a thicker hull. As a simple illustration, if you were building 3mm thick & ended up 2 mm that's a 33% error, whereas if you built 10mm thick & were out by the same 1mm, that's only a 10% error. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: Jim, Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. Jon On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth And the designed collapse depths would be: 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Dec 6 14:13:55 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:13:55 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: <8D0C0BF335800B9-C58-A3EE@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> <8D0C0BF335800B9-C58-A3EE@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2E81A17C-7F4B-4DCE-8E02-349FEBDF39AF@yahoo.com> Hi Vance, I was trying to justify G.L.s scaled system with an exaggerated example showing that any slight error of imperfection would be magnified & more impacting on a thinner than thicker hull. Enjoyed your construction discourse though. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 6:24 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > At the risk of soap boxing: > > Philosophically yes, but in real time, you would be building to your minimum, not your calculated thickness. If you specified 3 mm material and got something with a 2 mm spot from your supplier, I think you'd be shipping trash back to that supplier along with some strenuous WTF? commentary on the phone. You might be able to deal with a 4 mm plate, but never if it's the other way around. Same if it was 10mm. If I ordered 10 and got 9, the resultant discussions would border on downright impolite. > > As we were shown in Vancouver, the DW2000s are built from pentagonal segments of plate pressed to shape primarily to maximize control over thickness and form, an expensive and time consuming process which is absolutely necessary for integrity to the design. I think they are half an inch thick, which means half inch NOMINAL, as in half inch at the very least. > > Those are tough little hulls, capable of holding their shapes to probably twice (or more) of their operating and maybe even test depths. And I'll bet there was a lot of time spent verifying thickness with the new Aquarius type hull (Curasub) prior to rolling the first piece of steel to shape. And a lot of double checking later. In fact, I know there was, even though I wasn't there. I know because I've had a hand in building some of these things, and nobody cuts corners. Ever. It's just too critical. > > When you go for certification, there are no 10% errors allowed in the basic transition from drawing to fabrication. And certainly not 33%. To maintain your depth parameters, you do it right the first time, or you do it again. Period. Not a bad philosophy with momma's favorite son's backside on the line every time he goes in the water. As Alan clearly illustrated, you don't design for 125% of operating depth. You design for 200%, or maybe 250%. The 125% thing is about verifying your safety margin. > > George Kittredge told me once to just ignore some corrosion pits in my K-350, even though sonic mapping had shown nearly a hundred thousandths loss in three smallish areas (out of a 0.250 material thickness???). Maybe he was right for a 160 psi operating environment. That said, well...me?...I weld over-layed the hell out of them, then knocked the tops off the welds looking for porosity and to keep the bilges from looking like something Dr. Frankenstein stitched together. Wasn't happy until it was done and I had all my metal back. > > In my view, less is never more down where the sun don't shine. The regs keep us honest, but the steel keeps us dry. As we say in the nuclear business, "We aren't here to avoid risk, we're here to manage it." Second guessing just doesn't come into it. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 11:38 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads > > Hi Jim, > Yes you are right. > I used feet as an illustration, where they use metric pressure > in their table. > I like their scale system, because if you are building for a > shallow depth, with a thin sectioned hull, then any small margin of > error will have a bigger impact than on a thicker hull. > As a simple illustration, if you were building 3mm thick & ended up > 2 mm that's a 33% error, whereas if you built 10mm thick & were out > by the same 1mm, that's only a 10% error. > Alan > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/12/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >> >> Jim, >> >> Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: >>> 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth >>> 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth >>> >>> And the designed collapse depths would be: >>> 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse >>> 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse >>> >>> Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 14:28:25 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 14:28:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Douglas, > I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr < > spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote: > Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Brian, > I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when > it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since > I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: "hank pronk" > Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > Vance, > Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my > red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in > better. > I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the > prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I > drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much > better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing > anyways. > I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am > driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. > :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that > definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Nuytten > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles > ?intended to be entered while afloat? - > Phil > > *From:* Jon Wallace > *Sent:* Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class > only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static > and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE > INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive > of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics > as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's > possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests > required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > > I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot > of specifics. > There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined > in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the > class > notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of > submersible & the > operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced > condition > and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open > for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. > ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of > 30" > whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric > height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum > distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same > as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop > weight) > In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of > stability is to > be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 > different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 > submerged & at 6 different heeling > angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid > surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & > personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. > There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the > pressure > hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. > When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open > without > water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. > There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with > evaluation > of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. > Alan > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 6 14:42:41 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. Hank? On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, >I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Brian, >>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >> >>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >> >>Brian >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: "hank pronk" >>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >> >> >>Vance, >>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >> >>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>Vance >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Phil Nuytten >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >> >> >>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>Phil >> >> >>From: Jon Wallace >>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >> >> >>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >> >> >>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> >>> >>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Fri Dec 6 14:58:53 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 14:58:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads In-Reply-To: <2E81A17C-7F4B-4DCE-8E02-349FEBDF39AF@yahoo.com> References: <1386300427.29132.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C089FFCC7BE8-47C-12A19@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <52A1F747.8010007@psubs.org> <8D0C0BF335800B9-C58-A3EE@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com> <2E81A17C-7F4B-4DCE-8E02-349FEBDF39AF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D7AF92B-53FC-4F4E-AEEB-7D8287828803@AOL.com> I understood. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 2:13 PM, Alan wrote: > Hi Vance, > I was trying to justify G.L.s scaled system with an exaggerated > example showing that any slight error of imperfection would be > magnified & more impacting on a thinner than thicker hull. > Enjoyed your construction discourse though. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/12/2013, at 6:24 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > >> At the risk of soap boxing: >> >> Philosophically yes, but in real time, you would be building to your minimum, not your calculated thickness. If you specified 3 mm material and got something with a 2 mm spot from your supplier, I think you'd be shipping trash back to that supplier along with some strenuous WTF? commentary on the phone. You might be able to deal with a 4 mm plate, but never if it's the other way around. Same if it was 10mm. If I ordered 10 and got 9, the resultant discussions would border on downright impolite. >> >> As we were shown in Vancouver, the DW2000s are built from pentagonal segments of plate pressed to shape primarily to maximize control over thickness and form, an expensive and time consuming process which is absolutely necessary for integrity to the design. I think they are half an inch thick, which means half inch NOMINAL, as in half inch at the very least. >> >> Those are tough little hulls, capable of holding their shapes to probably twice (or more) of their operating and maybe even test depths. And I'll bet there was a lot of time spent verifying thickness with the new Aquarius type hull (Curasub) prior to rolling the first piece of steel to shape. And a lot of double checking later. In fact, I know there was, even though I wasn't there. I know because I've had a hand in building some of these things, and nobody cuts corners. Ever. It's just too critical. >> >> When you go for certification, there are no 10% errors allowed in the basic transition from drawing to fabrication. And certainly not 33%. To maintain your depth parameters, you do it right the first time, or you do it again. Period. Not a bad philosophy with momma's favorite son's backside on the line every time he goes in the water. As Alan clearly illustrated, you don't design for 125% of operating depth. You design for 200%, or maybe 250%. The 125% thing is about verifying your safety margin. >> >> George Kittredge told me once to just ignore some corrosion pits in my K-350, even though sonic mapping had shown nearly a hundred thousandths loss in three smallish areas (out of a 0.250 material thickness???). Maybe he was right for a 160 psi operating environment. That said, well...me?...I weld over-layed the hell out of them, then knocked the tops off the welds looking for porosity and to keep the bilges from looking like something Dr. Frankenstein stitched together. Wasn't happy until it was done and I had all my metal back. >> >> In my view, less is never more down where the sun don't shine. The regs keep us honest, but the steel keeps us dry. As we say in the nuclear business, "We aren't here to avoid risk, we're here to manage it." Second guessing just doesn't come into it. >> >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 11:38 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Design Loads >> >> Hi Jim, >> Yes you are right. >> I used feet as an illustration, where they use metric pressure >> in their table. >> I like their scale system, because if you are building for a >> shallow depth, with a thin sectioned hull, then any small margin of >> error will have a bigger impact than on a thicker hull. >> As a simple illustration, if you were building 3mm thick & ended up >> 2 mm that's a 33% error, whereas if you built 10mm thick & were out >> by the same 1mm, that's only a 10% error. >> Alan >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 7/12/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >>> >>> Jim, >>> >>> Yes, there's certainly a point in all brackets where it would behoove the owner to bump up the nominal dive depth (operating depth) to take advantage of lower ratios. I believe ABS uses a static 1.25 ratio for all vessels regardless of operating depth. GL would appear to be more conservative than ABS in this category. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On 12/6/2013 6:03 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >>>> Hi Alan, >>>> >>>> If I understand the requirements correctly, then for designed maximum operating depths of 320 feet and the 340 feet respectively the test depths would be as follows: >>>> 320' x 1.4 = 448' test depth >>>> 340' x 1.25 = 425' test depth >>>> >>>> And the designed collapse depths would be: >>>> 320' x 2.4 = 768' collapse >>>> 340' x 2.0 = 680' collapse >>>> >>>> Therefore if my designed operating depth is near the lower limit of a bracket, increasing the stated operating depth enough to push it into a deeper bracket would actually lessen the requirements for test depth and collapse. Do I understand correctly? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Jim >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Dec 6 16:53:57 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 10:53:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: > HELP, > Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. > Hank > > > On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Douglas, > I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: > It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: "hank pronk" > Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > Vance, > Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. > I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. > I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Nuytten > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - > Phil > > From: Jon Wallace > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > > I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > > On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >> There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >> in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >> notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >> operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >> and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >> for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >> whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >> In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >> be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >> angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >> There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >> hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >> When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >> water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >> There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >> of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 6 18:08:23 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:08:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, >Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. >Hank? > > > >On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Douglas, >>I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >>Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? >> >> >> >>On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Brian, >>>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >>> >>>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >>> >>>Brian >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: "hank pronk" >>>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>Vance, >>>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Phil Nuytten >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>>Phil >>> >>> >>>From: Jon Wallace >>>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >>> >>> >>>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Dec 6 18:59:39 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:59:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C0F65BB7A32B-47C-16D53@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 6 19:24:10 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0C0F65BB7A32B-47C-16D53@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C0F65BB7A32B-47C-16D53@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386375850.14105.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Jim, I have not checked them out.? The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing.? It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense.? I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line.? It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings.? interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec??www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, >Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. >Hank? > > > >On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Douglas, >>I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >>Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? >> >> >> >>On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Brian, >>>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >>> >>>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >>> >>>Brian >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: "hank pronk" >>>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>Vance, >>>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Phil Nuytten >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>>Phil >>> >>> >>>From: Jon Wallace >>>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >>> >>> >>>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Dec 6 19:55:05 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:55:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386375850.14105.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C0F65BB7A32B-47C-16D53@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386375850.14105.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C0FE1A29261E-47C-16FFA@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> So that's the problem. If you find them, buy spares! Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 6 19:56:59 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:56:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386375850.14105.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386300856.63738.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386358961.93747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386371303.90916.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C0F65BB7A32B-47C-16D53@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386375850.14105.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386377819.41567.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Jim Thanks' I found some in Oregon, didn't order it yet because they ship UPS.? I hate UPS they rip you off if you ship international. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 5:24:10 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Jim, I have not checked them out.? The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing.? It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense.? I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line.? It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings.? interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec??www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, >Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. >Hank? > > > >On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Douglas, >>I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >>Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? >> >> >> >>On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Brian, >>>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >>> >>>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >>> >>>Brian >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: "hank pronk" >>>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>Vance, >>>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Phil Nuytten >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>>Phil >>> >>> >>>From: Jon Wallace >>>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >>> >>> >>>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Fri Dec 6 21:31:26 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 02:31:26 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyHi Jim,I have not checked them out.? The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing.? It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense.? I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line.? It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings.? interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing.Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote:Hank,Have you tried Bartec??www.bartecassociates.comJim?-----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyHi Alan,I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote:Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitableIf you haven't already looked there.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote:HELP,Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help.Hank? On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote:Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.?On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote:Douglas,I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote:Hank, what are the specs on your new motor??On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote:Brian,I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote:It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyVance,Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-)Hank? On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote:Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim.Vance-----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyThe minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil?From:Jon WallaceSent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy? I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote:?I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics.There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard definedin the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the classnotification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced conditionand the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be openfor surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L.?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30"whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight)In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is tobe included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heelingangles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered.There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressurehull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open withoutwater coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees.There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluationof the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based.Alan???_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Dec 6 22:06:20 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 22:06:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday,December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are afew items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assemblyor a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 6 22:53:07 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:53:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy.? The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings.? It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out.? The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing.? It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense.? I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line.? It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings.? interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec??www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, >Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. >Hank? > > > >On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Douglas, >>I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >>Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? >> >> >> >>On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Brian, >>>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >>> >>>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >>> >>>Brian >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: "hank pronk" >>>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>Vance, >>>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Phil Nuytten >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>>Phil >>> >>> >>>From: Jon Wallace >>>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >>> >>> >>>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 7 09:03:53 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 06:03:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Yes the nylon tubing connects to a Swagelok compression tube fitting. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:53:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy.? The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings.? It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out.? The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing.? It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense.? I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line.? It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings.? interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec??www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes.? I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need.? Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are a few items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, >Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma.? I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism ?that depends on these lines.? I need to find 1/4in OD ?plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating.? Any leads would really help. >Hank? > > > >On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S.? > > > >On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Douglas, >>I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I? will run it at 24v giving me 2hp.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >>Hank, what are the specs on your new motor?? >> >> >> >>On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Brian, >>>I will be finished the assembly in a few days.?I will post a picture when it is all together.?I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: >>> >>>It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. >>> >>>Brian >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: "hank pronk" >>>Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>Vance, >>>Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >>>I took a big leap of faith?this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >>>I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Phil Nuytten >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >>>Phil >>> >>> >>>From: Jon Wallace >>>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy >>> >>> >>>I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. >>> >>> >>>On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>>>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>>>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>>>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>>>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>>>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>>>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>>>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>>>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>>>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>>>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>>>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>>>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>>>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>>>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>>>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>>>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>>>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 7 09:09:53 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 09:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C16D225E1F2E-47C-18CDF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> That's what I thought. I was puzzled about the question originally, as most manips out there with external solenoids use that kind of tubing. And you found it. Problem solved. Good deal. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Yes the nylon tubing connects to a Swagelok compression tube fitting. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:53:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy. The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings. It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday,December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are afew items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assemblyor a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Dec 7 09:43:08 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 09:43:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0C16D225E1F2E-47C-18CDF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C16D225E1F2E-47C-18CDF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0C171C79A6527-47C-18FDA@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Vance, Is that type of tubing used because it has greater flexibility, saltwater resistance, or other characteristics? Jim -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy That's what I thought. I was puzzled about the question originally, as most manips out there with external solenoids use that kind of tubing. And you found it. Problem solved. Good deal. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Yes the nylon tubing connects to a Swagelok compression tube fitting. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:53:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy. The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings. It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday,December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are afew items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assemblyor a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 7 11:03:50 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 11:03:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0C171C79A6527-47C-18FDA@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C16D225E1F2E-47C-18CDF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <8D0C171C79A6527-47C-18FDA@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0C17D0D190B73-FB0-1AA19@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> Jim, It is sufficient to the task and easily replaceable. Also cheaper and a whole lot lighter. You can keep a roll on the shelf and reuse the fittings, which isn't possible with normal hoses, each of which is essentially custom built. You need a three foot hose? Just nip it off the reel, slide on the fittings, graunch her down with your trusty 9/16" wrench, and you're done. Simple. This stuff came out and got really popular with the ROV folks for the weight savings, if nothing else. I expect a steel armored HP hydraulic line weighs something like a bunch more than a plastic line. A dozen of those on each manipulator adds up fast, especially when you are dealing with a lightweight system where payload is critical. Any pounds (even ounces) you can cut will make a difference. Besides, they are simpler to use in the field, where actual hydraulics people and the equipment required for repair and/or fabrication are thin on the ground. Side note: Jim Cameron's run to the Challenger Deep was cut short by a failure in the hydraulics. Something leaked, and those lines looked like the plastic stuff to me. Maybe a fitting failure? Us psubbers can take a lesson from that. Keep it under twenty thousand psi, boys!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:43 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Is that type of tubing used because it has greater flexibility, saltwater resistance, or other characteristics? Jim -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy That's what I thought. I was puzzled about the question originally, as most manips out there with external solenoids use that kind of tubing. And you found it. Problem solved. Good deal. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Yes the nylon tubing connects to a Swagelok compression tube fitting. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:53:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy. The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings. It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday,December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are afew items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assemblyor a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Dec 7 11:12:00 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 11:12:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <8D0C17D0D190B73-FB0-1AA19@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312061831966.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C110700D8D80-DC0-185C8@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> <1386388387.37021.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386425033.76221.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C16D225E1F2E-47C-18CDF@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <8D0C171C79A6527-47C-18FDA@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <8D0C17D0D190B73-FB0-1AA19@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0C17E31641804-47C-19649@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Thanks, Vance, I really appreciate the additional info and background. Jim -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 10:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Jim, It is sufficient to the task and easily replaceable. Also cheaper and a whole lot lighter. You can keep a roll on the shelf and reuse the fittings, which isn't possible with normal hoses, each of which is essentially custom built. You need a three foot hose? Just nip it off the reel, slide on the fittings, graunch her down with your trusty 9/16" wrench, and you're done. Simple. This stuff came out and got really popular with the ROV folks for the weight savings, if nothing else. I expect a steel armored HP hydraulic line weighs something like a bunch more than a plastic line. A dozen of those on each manipulator adds up fast, especially when you are dealing with a lightweight system where payload is critical. Any pounds (even ounces) you can cut will make a difference. Besides, they are simpler to use in the field, where actual hydraulics people and the equipment required for repair and/or fabrication are thin on the ground. Side note: Jim Cameron's run to the Challenger Deep was cut short by a failure in the hydraulics. Something leaked, and those lines looked like the plastic stuff to me. Maybe a fitting failure? Us psubbers can take a lesson from that. Keep it under twenty thousand psi, boys!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:43 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Is that type of tubing used because it has greater flexibility, saltwater resistance, or other characteristics? Jim -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy That's what I thought. I was puzzled about the question originally, as most manips out there with external solenoids use that kind of tubing. And you found it. Problem solved. Good deal. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Yes the nylon tubing connects to a Swagelok compression tube fitting. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:53:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi guys, Once I figured out what I have it was not a biggy. The hyd lines are nylon high pressure air lines with two part ss compression fittings. It is a relief, I do not want to waste the parts I have made. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06:44 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Swagelok fittings? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Can't you just have some made up custom to the size you need? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/6/2013 4:24:10 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Jim, I have not checked them out. The trick is this stuff is plastic unreinforced tubing. It is not hydraulic hose in the traditional sense. I have a feeling it is actually high pressure air line. It is measured by the od because it uses compression fittings. interestingly it has 1/4 inch two part compression fittings from solid tubing. Hank On Friday,December 6, 2013 4:59:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Have you tried Bartec? www.bartecassociates.com Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Alan, I checked ebay, there is only low pressure air tubing for air brakes. I called Parker and was directed to a distributor, but the distributor no longer carries what I need. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:53:57 PM, Alan wrote: Also Hank there are afew items on EBay that may be suitable If you haven't already looked there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Hose-Assembly-451tc-4-27-5-feet-with-1-4-female-fittings-Hydraulic-Hose-/251374227227 Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/12/2013, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk wrote: HELP, Went to my hydraulic supplier this morning and was told I will not find replacement lines for the arm on Gamma. I spent a week making a sheer and release mechanism that depends on these lines. I need to find 1/4in OD plastic tubing for 1,000 psi operating. Any leads would really help. Hank On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:28:25 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Thanks Hank, just curious. I can't wait to see your photos after assembly. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Douglas, I bought a 3hp 36v motor, I will run it at 24v giving me 2hp. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:53:19 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assemblyor a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for:-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability &Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibleswill be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancyand their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THESERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can'tconceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a fewspecifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load)and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of testsrequired. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there isnothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statementssuch as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the followingunless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow alower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, thedistance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge ofentrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfacedoperation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS hasa minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states;For surfaced; aminimum distance betweenmetacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4")And for submerged, aminimum distance between center of buoyancy & centerof gravity of 5cm (2")(same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping thedrop weight) Inthe initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses ofstability is to beincluded. Thistakes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases infresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like120 calculations. Heeling forces fromfree liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transferenceofequipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to beconsidered. There needs to besufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water.The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballasttank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in &the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operationalin water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center ofgravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailinglist Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Dec 7 18:13:05 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:13:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Dec 7 18:18:41 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 23:18:41 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication Message-ID: <201312071518410.SM08860@[66.162.33.185]> Hi All, ??????????????? Just passed the test for my Ham radio license !?? Any Hams out there? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 7 18:19:04 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 15:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, I only tested one so far.? I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi.? I am sure they will all test fine.? I am also having them buffed first to restore them.? Do you need some window by chance.? I have a box full of new windows ?that I have not even unpacked. Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, >I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it.? Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: > >It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > >Brian > >-----Original Message----- >From: "hank pronk" >Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >Vance, >Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >Phil > > >From: Jon Wallace >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > >On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >> >>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From k6fee at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 18:37:49 2013 From: k6fee at yahoo.com (k6fee at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 15:37:49 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication Message-ID: Congrats Brian, there are no waves like short waves!! 73 Keith K6fee brian wrote: >Hi All, >??????????????? Just passed the test for my Ham radio license !?? Any Hams out there? >Brian >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Dec 7 19:53:50 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 00:53:50 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication Message-ID: <201312071653519.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> It'll still be a week or so before I actually get my call sign, Oh yeah - and I need a radio. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 12/7/2013 3:37:49 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communicationCongrats Brian, there are no waves like short waves!! 73 Keith K6fee brian wrote: >Hi All, >??????????????? Just passed the test for my Ham radio license !?? Any Hams out there? >Brian >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 20:09:05 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:09:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Message-ID: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? Thanks Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 20:14:33 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:14:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication In-Reply-To: <201312071653519.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312071653519.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1386465273.80263.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Congrats Brian, ? You can now participate in ARISS as well as bounce and recieve signals globally, very cool! ? joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:55 PM, brian wrote: It'll still be a week or so before I actually get my call sign, Oh yeah - and I need a radio. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 12/7/2013 3:37:49 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication Congrats Brian, there are no waves like short waves!! 73 Keith K6fee brian wrote: >Hi All, >??????????????? Just passed the test for my Ham radio license !?? Any Hams out there? >Brian >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Dec 7 21:29:39 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 16:29:39 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What was the thickness and diameter of the one you tested? I'm good on ports and am going to send all mine to Greg for annealing but it?s good to know you have them for the future if need be. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Rick, I only tested one so far. I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi. I am sure they will all test fine. I am also having them buffed first to restore them. Do you need some window by chance. I have a box full of new windows that I have not even unpacked. Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Dec 7 21:40:49 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 16:40:49 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication In-Reply-To: <201312071518410.SM08860@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312071518410.SM08860@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <4D875CE568AC4FFFAE013044F143F5CD@LandNSeaPC> Congrats Brian I will be purchasing a combination Ham& SSB for my sailboat and plan on taking the test on line. Contact me offline. Would love to pick your brain. Rick From: brian Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] communication Hi All, Just passed the test for my Ham radio license ! Any Hams out there? Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 7 21:52:16 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 21:52:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C1D7A39DF5DB-968-1C548@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> Flush mount? Not sure what you're thinking of here. Pneumatic valve suggests a valve operated pneumatically. That's relatively easy in the home shop at whatever diameter you prefer. Hyco used them on everything, as do all the tourist subs out there. Otherwise, you'd mount a valve on the tank's high point and operate it with a reach rod from inside, like the Perry boats. I'm with you about the tubing run. Bad design. You'd want to reduce that to a minimum or none at all. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I need a little help understanding the installation ofremotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at variousproducts on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off theshelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank.What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminatesthe exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that wouldaccomplish this? Thanks Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 22:10:39 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 19:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386472239.61008.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> While you are looking at this Joe, G.L. requires mesh over the valves (can't remember if it's both sides) to stop foreign matter jamming the valve open. A good precaution as I could see it happening sooner or later. I did a lot of googling for a stainless top hat type valve that was pneumatically operated, but couldn't find anything. Alan? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 2:09 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? Thanks Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 22:28:08 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 19:28:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386472841.26953.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C1D7A39DF5DB-968-1C548@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> <1386472841.26953.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386473288.55665.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I should add that my roof comment reflects my circa 1925 flat roof! ? Joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hi Vance, Flush mount meaning that the valve body itself is within the tank and flush with the upper surface. Since the body of the valve protrudes down into the tank, I?m wondering about trapped air like rainwater on a house collecting in low spots on the roof and not going down the gutter. The question was prompted by my virtual but acurate?construction of the as drawn K-350 in order to better understand it's workings prior to any real attempt at redesign. Im currently on the tubing diagram, but things like this?prompt me to think ahead a bit. I really really like?the up high and straddled?MBT set ups on the big guys like Alvin and?JAMSTEC?s Shinkai with remote vents in each of the two tanks. I would want to emulate that very set up. Joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 9:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Flush mount? Not sure what you're thinking of here. Pneumatic valve suggests a valve operated pneumatically. That's relatively easy in the home shop at whatever diameter you prefer. Hyco used them on everything, as do all the tourist subs out there. Otherwise, you'd mount a valve on the tank's high point and operate it with a reach rod from inside, like the Perry boats. I'm with you about the tubing run. Bad design. You'd want to reduce that to a minimum or none at all. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? Thanks Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 7 22:35:08 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 22:35:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386473288.55665.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C1D7A39DF5DB-968-1C548@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> <1386472841.26953.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386473288.55665.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C1DDA05122B3-D80-1CCFE@webmail-d269.sysops.aol.com> I roughed out a homemade top hat valve, pneumatically operated, that has worked for decades on Hyco subs. They aren't on the computer, but I could mail you a copy if I can find one. There are some modern variants with better sealing capabilities used in the tourist sub industry, as well. Considering the costs, you'd probably want to be thinking about building them yourself. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I should add that my roof comment reflects my circa 1925 flat roof! Joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hi Vance, Flush mount meaning that the valve body itself is within thetank and flush with the upper surface. Since the body of the valve protrudesdown into the tank, I?m wondering about trapped air like rainwater on a house collectingin low spots on the roof and not going down the gutter. The question was prompted by my virtual but acurate construction of the as drawn K-350 in order to better understand it's workings prior to any real attempt at redesign. Im currently on the tubing diagram, but things like this prompt me to think ahead a bit. I really really like the up high and straddled MBT set ups on the big guys like Alvin and JAMSTEC?s Shinkai with remote vents in each of the two tanks. I would want to emulate that very set up. Joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 9:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Flush mount? Not sure what you're thinking of here. Pneumatic valve suggests a valve operated pneumatically. That's relatively easy in the home shop at whatever diameter you prefer. Hyco used them on everything, as do all the tourist subs out there. Otherwise, you'd mount a valve on the tank's high point and operate it with a reach rod from inside, like the Perry boats. I'm with you about the tubing run. Bad design. You'd want to reduce that to a minimum or none at all. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I need a little help understanding the installation ofremotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at variousproducts on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off theshelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank.What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminatesthe exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that wouldaccomplish this? Thanks Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 7 22:20:41 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 19:20:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <8D0C1D7A39DF5DB-968-1C548@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C1D7A39DF5DB-968-1C548@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386472841.26953.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Vance, Flush mount meaning that the valve body itself is within the tank and flush with the upper surface. Since the body of the valve protrudes down into the tank, I?m wondering about trapped air like rainwater on a house collecting in low spots on the roof and not going down the gutter. The question was prompted by my virtual but acurate?construction of the as drawn K-350 in order to better understand it's workings prior to any real attempt at redesign. Im currently on the tubing diagram, but things like this?prompt me to think ahead a bit. I really really like?the up high and straddled?MBT set ups on the big guys like Alvin and?JAMSTEC?s Shinkai with remote vents in each of the two tanks. I would want to emulate that very set up. Joe On Saturday, December 7, 2013 9:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Flush mount? Not sure what you're thinking of here. Pneumatic valve suggests a valve operated pneumatically. That's relatively easy in the home shop at whatever diameter you prefer. Hyco used them on everything, as do all the tourist subs out there. Otherwise, you'd mount a valve on the tank's high point and operate it with a reach rod from inside, like the Perry boats. I'm with you about the tubing run. Bad design. You'd want to reduce that to a minimum or none at all. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? Thanks Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 8 08:16:23 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 05:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386508583.25786.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, The ports for Gamma are 1.5in thick and 8.5in dia.? What stage are you at with your build? Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:30:03 PM, Land N Sea wrote: What was the thickness and diameter of the one you tested? I'm? good on ports and am going to send all mine to Greg for annealing but it?s good to know you have them for the future if need be. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Rick, I only tested one so far.? I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi.? I am sure they will all test fine.? I am also having them buffed first to restore them.? Do you need some window by chance.? I have a box full of new windows? that I have not even unpacked. Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, >I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: > >It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > >Brian > >-----Original Message----- >From: "hank pronk" >Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >Vance, >Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >Phil > > >From: Jon Wallace >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > >On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >> >>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sun Dec 8 13:45:55 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 08:45:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1386508583.25786.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386508583.25786.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21D84466ABD14F22B3C2A7A5173CD64B@LandNSeaPC> Hank, I forgot if you mentioned it or not but had that port been annealed before testing? My main ports are 8? X 1 1/4?. It?s hard to say percentage wise how far I am along as each phase is different labor wise plus not have built one before, it?s hard to put a value to it but,,,,,,,,,,,hull seam and all frames and 4 view port rings in and fully welded, threw hulls for side motors, steering linkage, drop weights and VBT vent and flood are in, lower ring for conn in, upper ring for conn including 4 view port rings, threw hulls for MBT dump, snorkel and hatch dogs done and ready to weld to lower ring already on hull, hatch done and ready to install, both battery pods are completely done and I have decided to take them out and individually test them to 600? before attaching them to the hull as I have 3 places in each pod that have O rings where a leak could occur unlike the construction drawings, so I want the option of getting them in a lathe to correct any warpage if need be as once they are on the hull no can do. Front dished end has large view port ring installed, rear dished end has the 2? flood nipple in all steel has been sand blasted and primed, I have the three Minn-Kotas but still need to modify them, VBT is done and ready to mount. I also have the depth sounder, U/W comms, gas chromatograph, scrubber and O2 cleaned first stage reg as well. It sounds like I have done a lot but then when I think of what is still left to do, it really doesn?t. I guess if it were easy everybody would be doing it. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 3:16 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Rick, The ports for Gamma are 1.5in thick and 8.5in dia. What stage are you at with your build? Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:30:03 PM, Land N Sea wrote: What was the thickness and diameter of the one you tested? I'm good on ports and am going to send all mine to Greg for annealing but it?s good to know you have them for the future if need be. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Rick, I only tested one so far. I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi. I am sure they will all test fine. I am also having them buffed first to restore them. Do you need some window by chance. I have a box full of new windows that I have not even unpacked. Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it. Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Vance, Funny you mention the inner tube. I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub. I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better. I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing. The housing has a bearing and seals now. I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil. I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways. I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original. I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up. That was my Christmas present. :-) I am very easy to shop for :-) Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED". Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application. They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined. Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to be included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 14:10:19 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:10:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. > Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? > Thanks > Joewith > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 8 14:10:39 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 11:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy In-Reply-To: <21D84466ABD14F22B3C2A7A5173CD64B@LandNSeaPC> References: <201312051717410.SM09664@66.162.33.185> <1386293015.10881.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386458344.28952.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386508583.25786.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <21D84466ABD14F22B3C2A7A5173CD64B@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1386529839.62537.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, All my windows are annealed and what ever else they do to make them certified.? I have paper work on each individual port with test results.? I will test the ports in the same fashion, pressurize them then measure deflection up to one hr. ? Sounds like you are well on your way, I would strongly recommend adding?two ports to you CT.? ?The difference is absolutely worth the effort.? I think Vance mentioned that it is fine to do so with the design.? Make a CT out of cardboard with 6 ports and try it out. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 11:45:55 AM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, I forgot if you mentioned it or not but had that port been annealed before testing? My main ports are 8? X 1 1/4?. It?s hard to say percentage wise how far I am along as each phase is different labor wise plus not have built one before, it?s hard to put a value to it but,,,,,,,,,,,hull seam and all frames and 4 view port rings in and fully welded, threw hulls for side motors, steering linkage, drop weights and VBT vent and flood are in, lower ring for conn in, upper ring for conn including 4 view port rings, threw hulls for MBT dump, snorkel and hatch dogs done and ready to weld to lower ring already on hull, hatch done and ready to install, both battery pods are completely done and I have decided to take them out and individually test them to 600? before attaching them to the hull as I have 3 places in each pod that have O rings where a leak could occur unlike the construction drawings, so I want the option of getting them in a lathe to correct any warpage? if need be as once they are on the hull no can do. Front dished end has large view port ring installed, rear dished end has the 2? flood nipple in all steel has been sand blasted and primed, I have the three Minn-Kotas but still need to modify them, VBT is done and ready to mount. I also have the depth sounder, U/W comms, gas chromatograph, scrubber and O2 cleaned first stage reg as well. It sounds like I have done a lot but then when I think of what is still left to do, it really doesn?t. I guess if it were easy everybody would be doing it. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 3:16 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Rick, The ports for Gamma are 1.5in thick and 8.5in dia.? What stage are you at with your build? Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:30:03 PM, Land N Sea wrote: What was the thickness and diameter of the one you tested? I'm? good on ports and am going to send all mine to Greg for annealing but it?s good to know you have them for the future if need be. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hi Rick, I only tested one so far.? I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi.? I am sure they will all test fine.? I am also having them buffed first to restore them.? Do you need some window by chance.? I have a box full of new windows? that I have not even unpacked. Hank On Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do? Rick From: Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote: Brian, >I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it.? >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote: > >It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. > >Brian > >-----Original Message----- >From: "hank pronk" >Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >Vance, >Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? >I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? >I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-) >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim. >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - >Phil > > >From: Jon Wallace >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy > > >I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. > > >On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >> >>I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics. >>There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined >>in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class >>notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the >>operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition >>and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open >>for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L. >>?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30" >>whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight) >>In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to >>be included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling >>angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered. >>There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure >>hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. >>When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without >>water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees. >>There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation >>of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based. >>Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 15:13:13 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:13:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Alan,

That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 15:37:33 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:37:33 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <27B7DF0A-18A7-4285-98CA-6588B7083E97@yahoo.com> Hi Joe, One stainless low profile unit came close. I liked the idea of a cheap off he shelf item with little modification needed. In G.L. section 7 D 4.4 it states "where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut off valves may be stipulated for the vent pipe." I don't know what ABS says about this. Alan Sent from my iPad On 9/12/2013, at 9:13 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's > Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM > > Hi Joe, > While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that > the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very > similar to what we want. > https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc > Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE > They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the > inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. > Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring > In them, they would work. > There may be some model that is ideal. > Alan > Sent from my iPad > > On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >> Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >> Thanks >> Joewith >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 8 15:58:58 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 15:58:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance. At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations. I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal. In your design, how much of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation ofremotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at variousproducts on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off theshelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank.What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminatesthe exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that wouldaccomplish this? Thanks Joewith _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 16:15:46 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 13:15:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386537346.79894.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Joe, At conference Vance talked on building a pneumatically operated ballast valve that has a low profile above the ballast tank & leaves no air bubble inside. He handed out a diagram of it. He may possibly have it on file. Looks easy to make. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 17:07:19 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 14:07:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the?vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for?saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is?more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra?reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin?Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the?Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both?ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I?just love CAD, everyone from the?Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe ? On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance.? At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations.? I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal.? In your design, how much?of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 8 18:14:22 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:14:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: References: <1386464945.56788.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52A4FD4E.1040007@psubs.org> You might also consider a plunger type valve designed like a bath tub drain. See link... http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/plumbing/bathtub/drain2/pbdra11a.jpg This could be mounted vertically or horizontally. On 12/8/2013 2:10 PM, Alan wrote: > Hi Joe, > While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that > the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very > similar to what we want. > https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc > Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE > They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would > be flush on the > inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit > above the ballast tank. > Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to > them, & with a spring > In them, they would work. > There may be some model that is ideal. > Alan > Sent from my iPad > > On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel > wrote: > >> I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely >> operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I've been looking at various >> products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn't seem to be an >> off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and >> fully vent the tank. What I'm looking for is a flush mount and a >> clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the >> conning tower. >> Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >> Thanks >> Joewith >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 8 18:26:17 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:26:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C284070A1D26-47C-1EFB2@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hi Joe, I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge. I can live with a liter or so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it. The main reason is that it will compress to 1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth. It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend. I have a couple of VBTs as well. Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket. Taper it. Syntactic foam would be great. Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world. I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw. By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see operational jet aircraft. He died in 1948. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I just love CAD, everyone from the Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance. At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations. I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal. In your design, how much of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation ofremotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at variousproducts on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off theshelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank.What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminatesthe exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that wouldaccomplish this? Thanks Joewith _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 8 18:33:42 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <8D0C284070A1D26-47C-1EFB2@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C284070A1D26-47C-1EFB2@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386545622.67435.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe The valve you want is on ebay? ross series 27 remote controlled valve 1inch the valfe is air powered and a very low profile if inverted. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:26:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge.? I can live with a liter or?so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it.? The main reason is that it will compress to?1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth.? It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend.? I have a couple of VBTs as well. ? Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket.? Taper it.? Syntactic foam would be great. ? Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world.? I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw.? By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see?operational jet aircraft.? He died in 1948. ? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the?vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for?saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is?more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra?reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin?Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the?Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both?ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I?just love CAD, everyone from the?Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe ? On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance.? At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations.? I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal.? In your design, how much?of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 8 20:34:35 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 17:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386545622.67435.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C284070A1D26-47C-1EFB2@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386545622.67435.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386552875.50082.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? I found a nice .pdf file on these valves. ? Thanks for that lead Hank! ? Joe On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe The valve you want is on ebay? ross series 27 remote controlled valve 1inch the valfe is air powered and a very low profile if inverted. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:26:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge.? I can live with a liter or?so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it.? The main reason is that it will compress to?1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth.? It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend.? I have a couple of VBTs as well. ? Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket.? Taper it.? Syntactic foam would be great. ? Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world.? I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw.? By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see?operational jet aircraft.? He died in 1948. ? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the?vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for?saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is?more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra?reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin?Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the?Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both?ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I?just love CAD, everyone from the?Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe ? On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance.? At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations.? I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal.? In your design, how much?of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 8 20:38:53 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 20:38:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Message-ID: <8D0C2968D93FD1D-47C-1F7C7@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hank, is this the one you were referring to? If so, it looks same height either way. Jim http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROSS-SERIES-27-REMOTE-AIR-CONTROLLED-VALVE-2754A6011-1-/190913302565?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7351d025 -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Joe The valve you want is on ebay ross series 27 remote controlled valve 1inch the valfe is air powered and a very low profile if inverted. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:26:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge. I can live with a liter or so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it. The main reason is that it will compress to 1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth. It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend. I have a couple of VBTs as well. Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket. Taper it. Syntactic foam would be great. Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world. I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw. By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see operational jet aircraft. He died in 1948. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I just love CAD, everyone from the Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance. At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations. I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal. In your design, how much of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation ofremotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at variousproducts on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off theshelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank.What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminatesthe exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. Am I missing a valve type or installation that wouldaccomplish this? Thanks Joewith _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Dec 8 22:19:09 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 03:19:09 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <201312081919863.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Sun Dec 8 22:51:35 2013 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 20:51:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <201312081919863.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312081919863.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <92fe650e-060f-48f7-a2ad-10af55ece76c@email.android.com> I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: >Hi All, >????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground >to the sub?? >Brian > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Dec 8 23:02:59 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 23:02:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <92fe650e-060f-48f7-a2ad-10af55ece76c@email.android.com> References: <201312081919863.SM08144@66.162.33.185> <92fe650e-060f-48f7-a2ad-10af55ece76c@email.android.com> Message-ID: Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules > specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems > (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component > chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to > the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery > or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly > reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull > (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even > your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. > > Sean > > > brian wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground >> to the sub? >> >> Brian >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Dec 8 23:27:18 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 04:27:18 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <201312082027285.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> Should there be a ground connection to the electric motor housing then? -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding questionYep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? Best, AlecOn Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote:I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc.Seanbrian wrote: Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Mon Dec 9 00:03:49 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 05:03:49 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; ? Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor? -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding questionYep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? Best, AlecOn Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote:I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc.Seanbrian wrote: Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 00:34:23 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 00:34:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Dec 9 00:56:51 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:56:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <3q3nvk4f801m9517rr9qq8od.1386568572063@email.android.com> I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonebrian wrote:Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Dec 9 01:07:24 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 01:07:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. > > And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). > > Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. > > As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brian > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Alec Smyth" > Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. >> Sean >> >> >> brian wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 07:08:03 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 07:08:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 07:23:10 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 04:23:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <8D0C2968D93FD1D-47C-1F7C7@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C2968D93FD1D-47C-1F7C7@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386591790.33131.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Yes that is the valve, you are right that they are the same height.? if you invert them then the air supply fitting is pointing down.? Then you will have a cleaner surface on the mbt.? Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:38:53 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hank, is this the one you were referring to?? If so, it looks same height either way. Jim http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROSS-SERIES-27-REMOTE-AIR-CONTROLLED-VALVE-2754A6011-1-/190913302565?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7351d025 -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Joe The valve you want is on ebay? ross series 27 remote controlled valve 1inch the valfe is air powered and a very low profile if inverted. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:26:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge.? I can live with a liter or?so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it.? The main reason is that it will compress to?1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth.? It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend.? I have a couple of VBTs as well. ? Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket.? Taper it.? Syntactic foam would be great. ? Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world.? I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw.? By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see?operational jet aircraft.? He died in 1948. ? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the?vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for?saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is?more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra?reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin?Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the?Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both?ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I?just love CAD, everyone from the?Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe ? On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance.? At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations.? I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal.? In your design, how much?of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 07:25:29 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 04:25:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386552875.50082.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386533593.83621.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C26F72AFC56A-47C-1E7B3@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386540439.18838.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C284070A1D26-47C-1EFB2@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> <1386545622.67435.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386552875.50082.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386591929.46893.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Those are pretty sweet valves.? You could also put a ceiling in your ballast tank and the valve protrusion could be in the attic so to speak.? Then you could have a totally smooth mbt. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:34:57 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, ? I found a nice .pdf file on these valves. ? Thanks for that lead Hank! ? Joe On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe The valve you want is on ebay? ross series 27 remote controlled valve 1inch the valfe is air powered and a very low profile if inverted. Hank On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:26:39 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I'm trying to keep the top of the MBTs as sleek as possible, so the vent valve will either be flush with the exterior or have only a slight bulge.? I can live with a liter or?so of residual air, but I would like to minimize it.? The main reason is that it will compress to?1/3 of that at 100 feet and 1/10 at maximum depth.? It would certainly be nicer to have as little residual air as possible so you wouldn't have even that much change in buoyancy as you descend.? I have a couple of VBTs as well. ? Two other design solutions are (a) taper the top of the MBT toward the vent, or (b) if the top of the MBT is flat, add just enough non-compressible material to the inside top of the tank to exclude an air pocket.? Taper it.? Syntactic foam would be great. ? Yup, CAD is certainly the eighth wonder of the world.? I think the greatest benefit is being able to alter one number and have the recalc flow all the way through without having to redraw.? By the way, Wilbur only lived nine years after the first flight in 1903, but Orville lived to see?operational jet aircraft.? He died in 1948. ? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Jim, I don't know quite yet, I just know I would want it clean and as low profile as possible. I'm toying with two separate designs, one that incorporates significant exostructure, the other less so. The fleet boat manual shows how the?vents were routed high up into and hidden within the casing, something I could consider for?saddle MBT's on an Alvin Jr type of configuration. For a reduced scale Seehund replica, (the other design), a flush mount is?more of a consideration. At first glance, the extra?reserve buoyancy makes the Alvin?Jr. design a better choice for my conditions, the?Seehund is really just an enjoyable distraction. Good points both?ref reliability and residual air allowances. I can pinpoint such volumes quite accurately in the software. I?just love CAD, everyone from the?Wright Brothers to John Holland and everyone in between would say we have it too easy now! Joe ? On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:00 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, Minimizing residual air in an MBT would be a consideration for me, but it would be the last consideration after first determining the best valve design for function, controlability, durability, and maintenance.? At that point you can set the air vent as close to the top of the tank as possible and allow for any residual air in your design calculations.? I expect the size of the bubble will be minimal.? In your design, how much?of a consideration is the amount the valve assembly projects above the top of the tank? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Hi Alan, That's similar to a Kingston isn't it? That shape would assure complete venting, one would have to be assured of fail safe reliability in whatever was used. I would like a normally closed fail safe mode in whatever style best assures sealing. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:10:19 PM Hi Joe, While thinking about the ballast valve, it occurred to me that the drain pop up plugs found in modern bathrooms, are very similar to what we want. https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&biw=768&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=47ukUvT-EsqhkwWt04DoAQ&q=drain+pop+up+waste&oq=drain+pop+up+waste&gs_l=img.3...46028.57398.0.58014.39.28.0.2.2.0.324.3866.8j5j4j5.22.0....0...1c.1.32.img..27.12.2132.cLok805IcCc Hope that link came out OK. It was an image search on DRAIN POP UP WASTE They would need to work upside down for our application, so they would be flush on the inside of the ballast tank (eliminating an air trap) but extend a bit above the ballast tank. Some models look like you could just stick an air line straight on to them, & with a spring? In them, they would work. There may be some model that is ideal. Alan Sent from my iPad On 8/12/2013, at 2:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I need a little help understanding the installation of remotely operated pneumatic valves in soft tanks. I?ve been looking at various products on the Net, and from what I see, there doesn?t seem to be an off the shelf remotely operated valve that would install flush and fully vent the tank. What I?m looking for is a flush mount and a clean installation which eliminates the exterior tubing routed to the conning tower. >Am I missing a valve type or installation that would accomplish this? >Thanks >Joewith? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 07:31:57 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 04:31:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386592317.12210.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps.? I am thinking of spring loading the?manipulator ?so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it.? Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump.?? What do you think??? Looks like it is warming up here, -21? today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju? Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. > > >And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). > > >Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. > > >As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: brian >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; ? Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor? > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Alec Smyth" >Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > >I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. >>Sean >> >> >> >>brian wrote: >>Hi All, >>>????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? >>> >>>Brian >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 07:32:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 04:32:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps.? I am thinking of spring loading the?manipulator ?so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it.? Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump.?? What do you think??? Looks like it is warming up here, -21? today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju? Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. > > >And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). > > >Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. > > >As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: brian >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; ? Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor? > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Alec Smyth" >Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > >I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. >>Sean >> >> >> >>brian wrote: >>Hi All, >>>????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? >>> >>>Brian >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 07:42:36 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 07:42:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C2F345841530-E40-107E@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Wouldn't you use extra power to extend against the springs in the opposite directions? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps. I am thinking of spring loading the manipulator so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it. Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump. What do you think? Looks like it is warming up here, -21 today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 07:52:21 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 04:52:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <8D0C2F345841530-E40-107E@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C2F345841530-E40-107E@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386593541.2117.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Gravity will pull the arm down.? The springs would make the arm weightless.? The hyd pressure would just have to work to control the arm and lift any object. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:42:36 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Wouldn't you use extra power to extend against the springs in the opposite directions? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps.? I am thinking of spring loading the?manipulator ?so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it.? Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump.?? What do you think??? Looks like it is warming up here, -21? today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju? Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. > > >And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). > > >Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. > > >As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: brian >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; ? Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor? > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Alec Smyth" >Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > >I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. >>Sean >> >> >> >>brian wrote: >>Hi All, >>>????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? >>> >>>Brian >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 08:10:31 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:10:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <1386593541.2117.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C2F345841530-E40-107E@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386593541.2117.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C2F72AD974B0-CA0-CDF@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> Hank, It might also let you reduce through the solenoids to dampen jerking movements. I've never seen it done, though. Should be interesting. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:52 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, Gravity will pull the arm down. The springs would make the arm weightless. The hyd pressure would just have to work to control the arm and lift any object. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:42:36 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Wouldn't you use extra power to extend against the springs in the opposite directions? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps. I am thinking of spring loading the manipulator so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it. Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump. What do you think? Looks like it is warming up here, -21 today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 08:14:57 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 05:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <8D0C2F72AD974B0-CA0-CDF@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> References: <201312082103957.SM08144@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0C2B77383F83A-1868-21750@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> <728BF679-8A5E-4F32-ADA4-90A32111CF18@yahoo.com> <8D0C2EE720B7840-E40-E05@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386592351.38006.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C2F345841530-E40-107E@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> <1386593541.2117.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C2F72AD974B0-CA0-CDF@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386594897.52783.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I hadn't thought of that, but yes it should be smoother.? Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 6:10:31 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, It might also let you reduce through the solenoids to dampen jerking movements. I've never seen it done, though. Should be interesting. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:52 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, Gravity will pull the arm down.? The springs would make the arm weightless.? The hyd pressure would just have to work to control the arm and lift any object. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:42:36 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Wouldn't you use extra power to extend against the springs in the opposite directions? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps.? I am thinking of spring loading the?manipulator ?so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it.? Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump.?? What do you think??? Looks like it is warming up here, -21? today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju? Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. > > >And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). > > >Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. > > >As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: brian >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; ? Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor? > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Alec Smyth" >Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents.? > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > >I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. >>Sean >> >> >> >>brian wrote: >>Hi All, >>>????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? >>> >>>Brian >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 9 08:27:34 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:27:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Spring-loaded Manips Message-ID: <8D0C2F98DE20F2E-19E0-1126@webmail-d298.sysops.aol.com> Hank, When we were at the scout camp in Florida I lifted one of the arms on the static sub on display. That end of the arm appeared to weigh somewhere around 100 lb. So if you were picking up something that weighed 20 lb., it would have required 120 lb. of lift. If the arm were spring loaded to neutral (as in the lamp below), it would only require 20 lb. of lift. I used to have a heavy CRT monitor that "floated" on an articulated arm above my desk. With the spring tension adjusted correctly you could move it around very easily. Same principle but using counterweights to lift water from a stream or well has been used for a few thousand years. It's used today lift the load in elevators. -Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 6:52 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, Gravity will pull the arm down. The springs would make the arm weightless. The hyd pressure would just have to work to control the arm and lift any object. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:42:36 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Wouldn't you use extra power to extend against the springs in the opposite directions? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, I will be back to work on the manipulator in a couple of days and I have an idea to save precious amps. I am thinking of spring loading the manipulator so it takes only minor pressure to raise and extend it. Let the springs do the bulk of the work instead of the pump. What do you think? Looks like it is warming up here, -21 today. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:08:23 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Ah, I had forgotten the corollary. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Vance, If I may take a liberty and complete that equation. Safe return to dock + raw bar debrief = good juju Joe On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:34 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Actually, the isolated system's handy dandiest attribute is its inability to electrocute the owner/operator. Low voltage is less an issue for that. The Nektons are all grounded systems, for instance (24 or 48 volt), and ABS certified. But you wouldn't get any one of those subs certified today. Beyond that, and once you step up to 120 or 240 volts, then you are pretty much holding the reins on a potential DC welding machine. You don't want to turn it into an electric chair. Thus all my soap boxing on fuses and isolation capabilities in the little subs. And of course Alec is quite right about corrosion and so on. You want to control high resistance shorts to ground in any case, and they are lots easier to track when they don't exist at all under ordinary circumstances (that is if your popped fuse isn't clue enough to track the problem). Under normal ops, anodes will serve admirably in the protection of dissimilar metals. Additionally, anodes serve as a pretty good indicator of the general health of your electrical system. If you have buzzy little shorts, the anodes will turn to sponge on you in short order. See that, get the multimeter out and plan on a long night. As to the risk of fire, I suspect that's as much about proper assembly and maintenance as anything else, but Sean is absolutely right about the risk of arcing. I've had two fires while diving, both on isolated systems (and both isolatable systems, luckily). What you don't want is cheap connectors or crappy installation or unfused/unbreakered circuits, or false grounds where you might get those magic blue electron streams zapping back and/ or forth. The mathematics for that unhappy occasion are simple. High 02 atmosphere + electrical arcing = Bad juju. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Seems like you would be grounding your hull anyway if you're running a propeller shaft from the motor through a thru hull to the outside ; Unless the motor housing is electrically insulated from any part of the motor -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Smyth" Sent 12/8/2013 8:02:59 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Yep, the K boats are just like any others in this regard... one does NOT connect either battery terminal to the hull. In addition to what Sean mentioned, I believe the main reason hulls are never grounded, not just in subs but in any metal hulled vessel, is to prevent corrosion due to stray currents. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: I don't know anything about the K-boats specifically, but the ABS rules specifically state that all subs are to use isolated electrical systems (battery negative not connected to hull). Safety grounds (component chasses, connector shells, cable screens, etc.) may be safety grounded to the hull, but there should be no electrical continuity between any battery or power supply terminal and the hull. The idea is that this significantly reduces the risk of electrical fire, as a loose wire contacting the hull (or any other short circuit, such as a carelessly handled wrench) - even your positive battery cable, will exhibit no potential to arc. Sean brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Mon Dec 9 08:37:36 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:37:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <3q3nvk4f801m9517rr9qq8od.1386568572063@email.android.com> References: <3q3nvk4f801m9517rr9qq8od.1386568572063@email.android.com> Message-ID: <9ea07e730d9045498a0872a212fd7f67@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Hi Scott, If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian > wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Mon Dec 9 08:56:03 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:56:03 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <9ea07e730d9045498a0872a212fd7f67@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <3q3nvk4f801m9517rr9qq8od.1386568572063@email.android.com> <9ea07e730d9045498a0872a212fd7f67@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: While i was building my sub, i had quite a nasty electrical incident. I was completing the final wiring on the batteries and i attached a locking spanner inside the sub to the negative terminal while i tightened the other end. I did that no problem but unknown to me, the spanner had turned around and come up against the vbt linkage. Effectivly making the entire sub negative earth, like you would for a car as alec says. When i tightened the positive terminal, on my final turn, the spanner i had contacted the inside of the pod and knocking the paint off, effectivly introduced a massive short. A huge pile of sparks and molten spanner blasted out of the pod right into my face and continued for about 4 seconds (which felt like forever) until the spanner melted through and dropped off. That was very unpleasant and i definitly wouldnt like that inside. I was very careful to ensure all wiring is completely isolated after that. regards James On 9 December 2013 13:37, Smyth, Alec wrote: > Hi Scott, > > > > If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as > you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the > negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two > cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally > isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated > corrosion. > > > > Best, > > > Alec > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *swaters > *Sent:* Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > > > I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub > > Thanks, > > Scott Waters > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > brian wrote: > Hi All, > On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to > the sub? > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Dec 9 09:08:55 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 08:08:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Smyth, Alec" wrote:Hi Scott, ? If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. ? Best, Alec ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question ? I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters ? ? ? ? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian wrote: Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Mon Dec 9 10:22:15 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:22:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good link here Scott http://www.kastenmarine.com/corrosion.htm On 9 December 2013 14:08, swaters wrote: > I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in > each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place > to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using > tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach > protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in > salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when > it is in water for a limited amount of time? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > "Smyth, Alec" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > > > If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as > you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the > negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two > cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally > isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated > corrosion. > > > > Best, > > > Alec > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *swaters > *Sent:* Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > > > I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub > > Thanks, > > Scott Waters > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > brian wrote: > Hi All, > On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to > the sub? > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Dec 9 10:49:31 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 08:49:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <20131209084931.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.7a64bfd911.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Mon Dec 9 11:02:27 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:02:27 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fb190dd1f844befab48382a6cef55af@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> It can be alarmingly fast. The bit that will corrode is where the electrons are leaving the hull. That probably won?t be through the paint, but surely you have parts made of aluminum or stainless somewhere that are unpainted yet electrically connected to the rest of the boat. I seem to recall Vance telling a story of an electrical mishap leading to his sub dissolving around him in a cloud of bubbles like a giant Alka Seltzer tablet, leading him to surface as fast as he could. Can?t recall the particulars? Vance? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:09 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Smyth, Alec" > wrote: Hi Scott, If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian > wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Mon Dec 9 11:05:40 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:05:40 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <201312090805160.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> Hi Alec,?? Glad I asked this question, I wasn't totally clear on the grounding and suspected there was special wiring on an all metal boat.? So on your motors do you have a insulator between the motor shaft and the propeller shaft?? and is the motor itself isolated with the mounting hardware ? What got me going on this was the grounding considerations for RF for transmitting radio communications. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Smyth, Alec" Sent 12/9/2013 5:37:36 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding questionHi Scott,?If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. ?Best, Alec ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swatersSent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AMTo: Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question?I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the subThanks,Scott Waters????Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian wrote: Hi All, ????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 11:14:08 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:14:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <5fb190dd1f844befab48382a6cef55af@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <5fb190dd1f844befab48382a6cef55af@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <8D0C310D29718C4-65C-212A@webmail-d263.sysops.aol.com> We used magnesium plate as anodes on the primary aluminum bits and pieces--dive planes for instance, plus the entire rear assembly on a Perry (rudder, beavertail, bracketry and prop ring) were aluminum. The time Alec reminds me of was a dead short in a thruster, and in the minutes it took me to sort out and switch off, I lost a substantial portion of shiny magnesium which was decaying away so fast we could actually watch the little bits fall off. Scott might want to stick an anode or two on his boat just for grins, although George never fooled with them on the Ks, and maybe with the low voltage, correctly so. Not sure, but I'm wearing them on mine, just in case. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 11:03 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question It can be alarmingly fast. The bit that will corrode is where the electrons are leaving the hull. That probably won?t be through the paint, but surely you have parts made of aluminum or stainless somewhere that are unpainted yet electrically connected to the rest of the boat. I seem to recall Vance telling a story of an electrical mishap leading to his sub dissolving around him in a cloud of bubbles like a giant Alka Seltzer tablet, leading him to surface as fast as he could. Can?t recall the particulars? Vance? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:09 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Smyth, Alec" wrote: Hi Scott, If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 11:17:26 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <201312090805160.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312090805160.SM06896@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <8D0C31148F799E4-65C-218B@webmail-d263.sysops.aol.com> Brian, Don't confuse the magnetic field in a motor with the electricity that creates it. Your current runs through an insulated system, and won't be a problem unless you get the nasty little trickle of seawater, which would ground the current. THEN you have a problem. As to RF noise, it's surely hard on communications, I know that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 11:06 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Hi Alec, Glad I asked this question, I wasn't totally clear on the grounding and suspected there was special wiring on an all metal boat. So on your motors do you have a insulator between the motor shaft and the propeller shaft? and is the motor itself isolated with the mounting hardware ? What got me going on this was the grounding considerations for RF for transmitting radio communications. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Smyth, Alec" Sent 12/9/2013 5:37:36 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Hi Scott, If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative.This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Dec 9 11:34:31 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 09:34:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <20131209093431.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.d1fe709319.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Dec 9 11:39:53 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 09:39:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question Message-ID: <20131209093953.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.426588adf1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 12:21:46 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 12:21:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <20131209093431.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.d1fe709319.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20131209093431.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.d1fe709319.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <8D0C31A4554ECC1-45C4-286C@webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com> Order a copy of "The 12-volt Bible for Boats" off Amazon or maybe from your nearest marine supply shop. It's got a really good section on fundamentals which can be easily extrapolated to 24 or 36 volt or whatever. There are many books out there, but that one is designed for idiots like me. Plain, clear language, and makes no assumptions. Perfect. I recommend it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 11:35 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question oh crap. I better look into this more then. I am currently working on the sub trailer and adding a compass and trying to figure out the stupid battery gauge problems I am having over the winter. Electrical is my weakest point of building a sub. I had a guy helping me, but he lost interest when we got mostly complete. Now I am stuck trying to figure out the rest. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question From: "Smyth, Alec" Date: Mon, December 09, 2013 9:02 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion It can be alarmingly fast. The bit that will corrode is where the electrons are leaving the hull. That probably won?t be through the paint, but surely you have parts made of aluminum or stainless somewhere that are unpainted yet electrically connected to the rest of the boat. I seem to recall Vance telling a story of an electrical mishap leading to his sub dissolving around him in a cloud of bubbles like a giant Alka Seltzer tablet, leading him to surface as fast as he could. Can?t recall the particulars? Vance? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:09 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Smyth, Alec" wrote: Hi Scott, If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone brian wrote: Hi All, On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 12:22:20 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <20131209093953.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.426588adf1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20131209093953.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.426588adf1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1386609740.90821.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, When I took the rudder through hull shaft out of Gamma, I found corrosion on the ss shaft right where the o-ring seats.? The shaft is also soaking in grease.? Vance and I concluded it was from Gamma being grounded.? If you operate in fresh water it may be better, but I would make the changes to correct that.? Luckily I was able to machine the top of the shaft so it sits lower and the o-ring is on good material again.? You can use a common through hull for your ground.? It sure sucks but,well, it just sucks. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:40:15 AM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: I definitely will attach? one then. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Vance, Scott Waters? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Date: Mon, December 09, 2013 9:14 am >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >We used magnesium plate as anodes on the primary aluminum bits and pieces--dive planes for instance, plus the entire rear assembly on a Perry (rudder, beavertail, bracketry and prop ring) were aluminum. The time Alec reminds me of was a dead short in a thruster, and in the minutes it took me to sort out and switch off, I lost a substantial portion of shiny magnesium which was decaying away so fast we could actually watch the little bits fall off. > > >Scott might want to stick an anode or two on his boat just for grins, although George never fooled with them on the Ks, and maybe with the low voltage, correctly so. Not sure, but I'm wearing them on mine, just in case. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Smyth, Alec >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 11:03 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >It can be alarmingly fast. The bit that will corrode is where the electrons are leaving the hull. That probably won?t be through the paint, but surely you have parts made of aluminum or stainless somewhere that are unpainted yet electrically connected to the rest of the boat. I seem to recall Vance telling a story of an electrical mishap leading to his sub dissolving around him in a cloud of bubbles like a giant Alka Seltzer tablet, leading him to surface as fast as he could. Can?t recall the particulars? Vance? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of swaters >Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:09 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > >I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >"Smyth, Alec" wrote: >Hi Scott, >? >If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. >? >Best, > >Alec >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters >Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > >I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >brian wrote: >Hi All, >????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? > >Brian >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Dec 9 12:27:09 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:27:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question In-Reply-To: <1386609740.90821.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20131209093953.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.426588adf1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1386609740.90821.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386610029.52347.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, You could drill and thread the hull and the battery pod?to 3/4?pipe thread .? Then screw in a couple of #12 jic hyd fittings and then run a hyd hose with the ground cable inside.? No welding needed, you won't even mess up your paint. Hank On , hank pronk wrote: Scott, When I took the rudder through hull shaft out of Gamma, I found corrosion on the ss shaft right where the o-ring seats.? The shaft is also soaking in grease.? Vance and I concluded it was from Gamma being grounded.? If you operate in fresh water it may be better, but I would make the changes to correct that.? Luckily I was able to machine the top of the shaft so it sits lower and the o-ring is on good material again.? You can use a common through hull for your ground.? It sure sucks but,well, it just sucks. Hank On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:40:15 AM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: I definitely will attach? one then. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Vance, Scott Waters? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Date: Mon, December 09, 2013 9:14 am >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >We used magnesium plate as anodes on the primary aluminum bits and pieces--dive planes for instance, plus the entire rear assembly on a Perry (rudder, beavertail, bracketry and prop ring) were aluminum. The time Alec reminds me of was a dead short in a thruster, and in the minutes it took me to sort out and switch off, I lost a substantial portion of shiny magnesium which was decaying away so fast we could actually watch the little bits fall off. > > >Scott might want to stick an anode or two on his boat just for grins, although George never fooled with them on the Ks, and maybe with the low voltage, correctly so. Not sure, but I'm wearing them on mine, just in case. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Smyth, Alec >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 11:03 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > > >It can be alarmingly fast. The bit that will corrode is where the electrons are leaving the hull. That probably won?t be through the paint, but surely you have parts made of aluminum or stainless somewhere that are unpainted yet electrically connected to the rest of the boat. I seem to recall Vance telling a story of an electrical mishap leading to his sub dissolving around him in a cloud of bubbles like a giant Alka Seltzer tablet, leading him to surface as fast as he could. Can?t recall the particulars? Vance? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of swaters >Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:09 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > >I might have to rethink that then. I currently have six tru hulls (3 in each pod). One vent/chargeing plug, one 12V and one 36V. There is no place to run a negative with my current set up with the exception of not using tru hulls and just running wires, but there would be no battery pod breach protection. Just curious, I know that electricity promotes corrosion in salt water, but how would the metal corrod under the paint especially when it is in water for a limited amount of time? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >"Smyth, Alec" wrote: >Hi Scott, >? >If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you might have wired her as you would a car, with cables for the positive and using the chassis for the negative. This is a steel boat, so instead of that, what one does is two cables, one for positive and one for negative, but both of them equally isolated from the hull. Else, you are inviting a case of accelerated corrosion. >? >Best, > >Alec >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of swaters >Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:57 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] grounding question > >I connected mine to the electrical pannel through the body of the sub >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >brian wrote: >Hi All, >????????????? On the K boats where does one normally connect the ground to the sub?? > >Brian >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Dec 9 21:55:23 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:55:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Message-ID: <1386644123.66329.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just something interesting I found in G.L. with regard to depth rating of acrylic hemispheres. A dome rated for 990 ft (30 bar) in 10C water temperature?is only? rated to 495 ft ?(15 bar) in?38C.? According to this simple sea temperature at depth profiler? http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Water/temp.html at 600 ft most water is under 10C. So you would never expose the dome to overly high pressures at high temperatures. I am not sure how G.L. deal with this issue & whether with deeper diving submarines you would just claim to operate in low temperatures & go for the largest depth rating for that dome. To add another dimension to this, I guess you would need to factor in the cabin? temperature, because that would be effecting the inside of the acrylic. Also the acrylic having high thermal insulation properties would be slow to cool down & would remain at a higher temperature than the surrounding water for a time, especially if diving quickly. On the plus side there is something like a 5x safety factor in there. Vance did you ever strike relatively warm temperatures at depth? Regards Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 9 22:24:40 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:24:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating In-Reply-To: <1386644123.66329.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386644123.66329.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C36E7EC686F0-183C-61E0@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> Abu Musa offshore Sharjah in the UAE. 84F/29C at 200 feet! Like diving in a hot tub. Even the sharks were sweating, which didn't make our recovery diver very happy. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 9:56 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Just something interesting I found in G.L. with regard to depth rating of acrylic hemispheres. A dome rated for 990 ft (30 bar) in 10C water temperature is only rated to 495 ft (15 bar) in 38C. According to this simple sea temperature at depth profiler http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Water/temp.html at 600 ft most water is under 10C. So you would never expose the dome to overly high pressures at high temperatures. I am not sure how G.L. deal with this issue & whether with deeper diving submarines you would just claim to operate in low temperatures & go for the largest depth rating for that dome. To add another dimension to this, I guess you would need to factor in the cabin temperature, because that would be effecting the inside of the acrylic. Also the acrylic having high thermal insulation properties would be slow to cool down & would remain at a higher temperature than the surrounding water for a time, especially if diving quickly. On the plus side there is something like a 5x safety factor in there. Vance did you ever strike relatively warm temperatures at depth? Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 03:40:11 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating In-Reply-To: <8D0C36E7EC686F0-183C-61E0@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386644123.66329.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C36E7EC686F0-183C-61E0@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386664811.72214.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks, that's hot. I read it gets up to 32 Celsius at the surface in the Persian gulf. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Abu Musa offshore Sharjah in the UAE. 84F/29C at 200 feet! Like diving in a hot tub. Even the sharks were sweating, which didn't make our recovery diver very happy. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 9:56 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Just something interesting I found in G.L. with regard to depth rating of acrylic hemispheres. A dome rated for 990 ft (30 bar) in 10C water temperature?is only? rated to 495 ft ?(15 bar) in?38C.? According to this simple sea temperature at depth profiler? http://www.windows2universe. org/earth/Water/temp.html at 600 ft most water is under 10C. So you would never expose the dome to overly high pressures at high temperatures. I am not sure how G.L. deal with this issue & whether with deeper diving submarines you would just claim to operate in low temperatures & go for the largest depth rating for that dome. To add another dimension to this, I guess you would need to factor in the cabin? temperature, because that would be effecting the inside of the acrylic. Also the acrylic having high thermal insulation properties would be slow to cool down & would remain at a higher temperature than the surrounding water for a time, especially if diving quickly. On the plus side there is something like a 5x safety factor in there. Vance did you ever strike relatively warm temperatures at depth? Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Dec 10 05:06:30 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:06:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating In-Reply-To: <1386664811.72214.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386644123.66329.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C36E7EC686F0-183C-61E0@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> <1386664811.72214.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C3A6A16E5FB8-1F4-B1@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> That or higher. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:40 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Thanks, that's hot. I read it gets up to 32 Celsius at the surface in the Persian gulf. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Abu Musa offshore Sharjah in the UAE. 84F/29C at 200 feet! Like diving in a hot tub. Even the sharks were sweating, which didn't make our recovery diver very happy. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 9:56 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic temperature rating Just something interesting I found in G.L. with regard to depth rating of acrylic hemispheres. A dome rated for 990 ft (30 bar) in 10C water temperature is only rated to 495 ft (15 bar) in 38C. According to this simple sea temperature at depth profiler http://www.windows2universe. org/earth/Water/temp.html at 600 ft most water is under 10C. So you would never expose the dome to overly high pressures at high temperatures. I am not sure how G.L. deal with this issue & whether with deeper diving submarines you would just claim to operate in low temperatures & go for the largest depth rating for that dome. To add another dimension to this, I guess you would need to factor in the cabin temperature, because that would be effecting the inside of the acrylic. Also the acrylic having high thermal insulation properties would be slow to cool down & would remain at a higher temperature than the surrounding water for a time, especially if diving quickly. On the plus side there is something like a 5x safety factor in there. Vance did you ever strike relatively warm temperatures at depth? Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 09:36:38 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:36:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386591929.46893.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386686198.7594.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not bad Hank, not bad at all!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 09:36:40 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:36:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Flush Mount Valves in MBT's In-Reply-To: <1386591929.46893.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386686200.16537.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not bad Hank, not bad at all!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 13:46:11 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:46:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? Message-ID: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before)?and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 13:52:40 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:52:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>>If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Have you been drinking? Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 7:46 AM, Joe Perkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Dec 10 13:54:32 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:54:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> Nope, just one explanation. Or was that an excuse? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:46 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before) and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Dec 10 13:57:20 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> In these situations I hand it to my wife and say "please fix this, I will be in the shop" Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:50 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Nope, just one explanation. Or was that an excuse? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:46 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before)?and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Dec 10 14:00:24 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:00:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C3F1377BCEFE-D10-2D48@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> My grandsons perform the same function. As in, "Jeez, granddad. All you gotta do is..." and blip, all fixed. It's like magic. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In these situations I hand it to my wife and say "please fix this, I will be in the shop" Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:50 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Nope, just one explanation. Or was that an excuse? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:46 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before) and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 15:26:50 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:26:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <8D0C3F1377BCEFE-D10-2D48@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F1377BCEFE-D10-2D48@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52A7790A.7070404@psubs.org> We have become our parents. On 12/10/2013 2:00 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > My grandsons perform the same function. As in, "Jeez, granddad. All > you gotta do is..." and blip, all fixed. It's like magic. > Vance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 15:53:59 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:53:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <52A7790A.7070404@psubs.org> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F1377BCEFE-D10-2D48@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <52A7790A.7070404@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1386708839.4374.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It came back to me double so its the account!! Expect the occasional repeat messages from me unless,... ??????? Alan,... unless of course I'm seeing double from drinking! ??????? Vance,... Lend me a grandson! ??????? Hank,... Lend me your wife! ?????? Jon,... I can't believe you said that! Joe :) On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: We have become our parents. On 12/10/2013 2:00 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: My grandsons perform the same function. As in, "Jeez, granddad. All you gotta do is..." and blip, all fixed. It's like magic. >Vance > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 16:08:19 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:08:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <52A7790A.7070404@psubs.org> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F1377BCEFE-D10-2D48@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <52A7790A.7070404@psubs.org> Message-ID: <146704CB-AD39-475A-A077-CD8E820290FA@yahoo.com> > We have become our parents. Don't say that Jon. My mother once pointed to a table with a tv, a video & a private channel controller & said "I think one of these is ringing". But no, it was a bird chirping outside. Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 9:26 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > We have become our parents. > > > On 12/10/2013 2:00 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: >> My grandsons perform the same function. As in, "Jeez, granddad. All you gotta do is..." and blip, all fixed. It's like magic. >> Vance > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Dec 10 16:12:06 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:12:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386701171.28468.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C3F0655BD678-D10-2CAE@webmail-d253.sysops.aol.com> <1386701840.65278.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C4039D872143-8E4-3A81@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Does your wife happen to have a single sister with a similar skill set? Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In these situations I hand it to my wife and say "please fix this, I will be in the shop" Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:50 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Nope, just one explanation. Or was that an excuse? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:46 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before) and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 16:40:06 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:40:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In-Reply-To: <8D0C4039D872143-8E4-3A81@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386711606.45779.YahooMailBasic@web140504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yahoo is always @#$%ing with the email account. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12/10/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 1:12 PM Hank, Does your wife happen to have a single sister with a similar skill set? Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? In these situations I hand it to my wife and say "please fix this, I will be in the shop" Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:50 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Nope, just one explanation. Or was that an excuse? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:46 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] iPad Mail Malfuntion? This is a test message from my desktop PC It would seem that my iPad is sending out multiple messages (this has happened before)?and I cannot figure out the problem, my apologies for the bombardment. At the moment the thing is turned off. If it happens again with this message, then the problem is the Yahoo account. If anyone knows what could be causing this, some assistance would be appreciated. Thank you Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 21:01:46 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:01:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 03:22:58 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:22:58 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi, > I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction > regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. > G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. > Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal > & supervision approved by G.L.. > Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need > to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the > hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that > the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. > Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. > Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. > If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. > Alan > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Dec 11 09:36:26 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 06:36:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? Hank? On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >& supervision approved by G.L.. >Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >Alan _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 09:52:03 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:52:03 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hulll In-Reply-To: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5192A057-4E4F-463F-AAA3-E52A1ED7886D@yahoo.com> Hank, I assume it is for both, but most often over pressure. There is an over pressure relief valve & in some boats you use the same valve & push it open against the spring force to release the few psi of pressure that may be left. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/12/2013, at 3:36 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Alan, > Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism > is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after > equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? > Thanks > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > >> Hi, >> I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >> regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >> G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >> Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >> & supervision approved by G.L.. >> Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >> to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >> hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >> the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >> Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >> Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >> If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 09:53:47 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 06:53:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan

No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved.

On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation.

On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 10:06:38 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:06:38 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <836F3F2D-AA3C-46C0-AF82-6A785FF5D2BB@yahoo.com> Joe, I was thinking it may be something like a cable attached to the latching handle, so that when you pulled down on the handle It opened the pressure relief valve. There would need to be a spring inserted in the length of cable. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/12/2013, at 3:53 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Alan > > No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > > On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > > On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: hank pronk ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM > > Alan, > Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism > is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after > equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? > Thanks > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > >> Hi, >> I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >> regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >> G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >> Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >> & supervision approved by G.L.. >> Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >> to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >> hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >> the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >> Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >> Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >> If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 10:20:07 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C49B9C068825-1F8-7E60@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Wed Dec 11 10:49:30 2013 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:49:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it possible that this rule is simply another way of stating that hatches need be designed to seal with pressure, such that they physically cannot be opened unless equalized (+/- a person's strength)? Dogs in that case are just a means of providing a little bit of precompression on the O-ring in the absence of a pressure differential, and to hold the hatch against _slight_ reverse pressure, such at the 1 ATM specified by ABS. ABS' version says that a means must be provided to equalize pressure before opening (needle valve?), that means must be provided to determine the pressure on either side, and that interlocks must be present to prevent e.g. submerging with open hatches. I wonder if GL is really that prescriptive, or if we're misinterpreting? Sean Joe Perkel wrote: >Alan

No definitive answer but we can postulate that both >sensing and actuation are involved.

On sensing, differential >pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to >actuation.

On actuation, a method of locking out the operator >from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the >standard as per your O.P.

Joehref="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS">

Sent from >Yahoo Mail for iPad
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 14:06:58 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:06:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have to admit this one really befuddles me. What if you were to have two (independent) pressure sensors/gauges, one for cabin pressure and one for ambient pressure, but the gauges were linked at the needles with a one-way gate. This way, the gauges would both be free to move independently, but the gate would only open (and unlock the hatch lock-out via a switch) when both needles were lined up in tandem indicating equal pressure, be it at the surface or underwater. I think actually designing and building such a device would prove very difficult. Is this what they are talking about, or am I confused? Because if so, I'm not sure I would ever want to implement such a device on my vessel. If a malfunction of this system were to occur during an emergency egress, how much more time would it take to bypass the hatch lock-out? 3 seconds is a long time when you are dying! With pressure gauges alone I will have a pretty good idea of where I stand in terms of equalization. On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Alan > > No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation > are involved. > > On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is > translated to a impulse to actuation. > > On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically > un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * hank pronk ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > * Sent: * Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM > > Alan, > Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external > pressure. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan < > alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism > is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after > equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? > Thanks > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > > Hi, > I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction > regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. > G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural > screw. > Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, > personal > & supervision approved by G.L.. > Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, > they need > to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that > opening of the > hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to > guarantee that > the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be > visibly noticeable. > Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. > Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by > appendages or covers. > If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the > program is suitable. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 13:53:01 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:53:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fwd: G.L. summary Pressure Hull References: <836F3F2D-AA3C-46C0-AF82-6A785FF5D2BB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5388AF25-DE3F-4A8E-A54B-4BF835116E65@yahoo.com> Sending the message below, again. I didn't receive it, sorry if I'm dubbling up. > > Joe, > I was thinking it may be something like a cable attached to > the latching handle, so that when you pulled down on the handle > It opened the pressure relief valve. There would need to be a > spring inserted in the length of cable. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 12/12/2013, at 3:53 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> >> Alan >> >> No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. >> >> On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. >> >> On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> From: hank pronk ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >> Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM >> >> Alan, >> Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: >> Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism >> is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after >> equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? >> Thanks >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >>> regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >>> G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >>> Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >>> & supervision approved by G.L.. >>> Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >>> to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >>> hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >>> the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >>> Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >>> Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >>> If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >>> Alan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 14:45:55 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:45:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <8D0C4C0BD1D54A7-1F8-9C89@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the pressure release handle out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Back to the sensing issue: Several months ago we discussed automatic overpressure valves vs manual OP valves. I favored automatic (AOP) since it's difficult in an overpressure situation to intermittently, manually vent as the sub ascends and the outside pressure decreases. However the set cracking pressure on an AOP valve automatically and continuously senses the pressure differential and reacts accordingly. Consider that even 1 or 2 psi multiplied times the number of square inches on your hatch adds up to a huge amount of pressure. George K. and others have experienced overpressure without even realizing it until the hatch blew. How about this setup: Small, onboard compressor with line running to the manual OP valve (by the hatch latch), then to the AOP valve. Latch the hatch, leave the manual OP valve open, run the compressor until you get the desired vacuum inside the sub. Turn off the compressor and the AOP will close itself. Wait to see if air leaks back into the sub. If it doesn't, you're sealed and good to dive. The manual OP valve mainly serves as a cutoff if the AOP should fail and leak. Whether you were diving with the manual valve opened or close, it should at least be opened when the ascent reaches a certain level (another discussion). If you set the cabin pressure gauge to 0 before you closed the hatch and monitored it while running the compressor, you know how much vacuum you pulled then, and now you can tell if you have an overpressure situation or not. Additionally pulling the slight vacuum helped ensure against an OP situation. Sure, an atmospheric pressure change could have occurred while you were submerged, but the difference shouldn't be too much. An unbalanced life support system could change the cabin pressure as well. When you surface you're more likely going to have under-pressure and need to admit air to equalize so you can now open the hatch. A vacuum on the support boat instead is great, but given the difficulty of doing some tasks from the support boat to a sub floating next to it, I want to try the miniature compressor on a shop dive and see how it works. Would love to hear corrections and comments from those with more operational experience. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Wed Dec 11 15:21:12 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:21:12 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C49B9C068825-1F8-7E60@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C49B9C068825-1F8-7E60@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0d1fc537b6be48d796c5749e679cf623@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Gents, I think we're seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I'm not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can't open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I'm not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan > wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James > wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 15:22:51 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:22:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C4C5E6ACE1D7-1F8-A036@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> A message I posted about four hours ago just came through right after I posted a much longer version of the same one and re-sent it. For the interlock to prevent diving without the hatch being latched, you could get a switch such as washing machines use to prevent the tub from spinning when the lid is open and install it at the hatch latch. The other end could either block the vent controls from moving or go to inline switches/valves depending on how the MBT vents are actuated. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Sean T. Stevenson To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Is it possible that this rule is simply another way of stating that hatches need be designed to seal with pressure, such that they physically cannot be opened unless equalized (+/- a person's strength)? Dogs in that case are just a means of providing a little bit of precompression on the O-ring in the absence of a pressure differential, and to hold the hatch against _slight_ reverse pressure, such at the 1 ATM specified by ABS. ABS' version says that a means must be provided to equalize pressure before opening (needle valve?), that means must be provided to determine the pressure on either side, and that interlocks must be present to prevent e.g. submerging with open hatches. I wonder if GL is really that prescriptive, or if we're misinterpreting? Sean Joe Perkel wrote: Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 15:24:37 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386793477.61050.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Sean, the wording in G.L. is..... Section 5 C, ?Hatches, doors, access ways 6.1.2 The access and exit hatches are to be provided with a closing mechanism which makes it possible to create, even when the vehicle is surfaced, a sufficient contact force on the hatch sealing. In addition the closing mechanism is to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after pressure equalization has happened, see also section 13,F......which reads.....measures are to be provided to transfer in a controlled manner the higher or lower pressure eventually built up within the pressure hull to atmospheric pressure before the access hatches are opened. ? ?So this qualification is in addition to a good seal of the hatch. On Emile's boat he has a plunger in his over pressure valve that he pushes before opening the hatch. Alan ________________________________ From: Sean T. Stevenson To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Is it possible that this rule is simply another way of stating that hatches need be designed to seal with pressure, such that they physically cannot be opened unless equalized (+/- a person's strength)?? Dogs in that case are just a means of providing a little bit of precompression on the O-ring in the absence of a pressure differential, and to hold the hatch against _slight_ reverse pressure, such at the 1 ATM specified by ABS. ABS' version says that a means must be provided to equalize pressure before opening (needle valve?), that means must be provided to determine the pressure on either side, and that interlocks must be present to prevent e.g. submerging with open hatches. I wonder if GL is really that prescriptive, or if we're misinterpreting? Sean Joe Perkel wrote: Alan > >No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > >On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > >On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: hank pronk ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM > > >Alan, >Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? >Hank? > > > >On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: > >Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism >is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after >equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? >Thanks >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > > >Hi, >>I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >>regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >>G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >>Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >>& supervision approved by G.L.. >>Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >>to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >>hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >>the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >>Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >>Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >>If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >>Alan >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 16:02:43 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:02:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alec, It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From:hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 16:17:35 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a? similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch? if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring.? I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan ________________________________ From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I have to admit this one really befuddles me. What if you were to have two (independent) pressure sensors/gauges, one for cabin pressure and one for ambient pressure, but the gauges were linked at the needles with a one-way gate. This way, the gauges would both be free to move independently, but the gate would only open (and unlock the hatch lock-out via a switch) when both needles were lined up in tandem indicating equal pressure, be it at the surface or underwater. I think actually designing and building such a device would prove very difficult. ?? Is this what they are talking about, or am I confused?? Because if so, I'm not sure I would ever want to implement such a device on my vessel. If a malfunction of this system were to occur during an emergency egress, how much more time would it take to bypass the hatch lock-out? 3 seconds is a long time when you are dying! ? With pressure gauges alone I will have a pretty good idea of where I stand in terms of equalization.? On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan > >No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > >On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > >On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: hank pronk ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM > > > >Alan, >Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? >Hank? > > > >On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: > >Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism >is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after >equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? >Thanks >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > > >Hi, >>I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >>regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >>G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >>Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >>& supervision approved by G.L.. >>Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >>to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >>hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >>the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >>Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >>Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >>If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >>Alan >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Dec 11 16:41:50 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:41:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi Doug, > Elaborating on your idea. > If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system > comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a > similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet > that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch > release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would > need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily > & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- > With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know > that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is > what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is > not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch > if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. > So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. > I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your > hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly > open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally > as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. > Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. > Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 16:51:40 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:51:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <0d1fc537b6be48d796c5749e679cf623@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C49B9C068825-1F8-7E60@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <0d1fc537b6be48d796c5749e679cf623@BY2PR05MB663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1386798700.18978.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec, Alec, These discussions?(regardless of complexity of the systems involved) are always thought provoking and informative. But?it's also good to?be reminded how?KISS always comes full circle when it comes to this particular discipline. Every time I'm reminded about KISS, I'm reminded that as tempted as I will be to install complex systems like scanning sonar, camera systems, etc, the basic?Bare Bones?systems must conform to KISS, so by all means?keep reminding us! With that in mind I'm going to further?simplify the automated fire suppression system in my reactor compartment. :) Joe ? On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:23 PM, "Smyth, Alec" wrote: Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. ? I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. ?? ? As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. ?? ? Best, Alec ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull ? It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position.? In other words, you have to move the handle to?out of the way before you can get to the hatch release.? ? Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic.? It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open.? It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable?depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief.? You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface.? If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. ? Jim ? ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ? ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM ? Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? Hank? ? On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >& supervision approved by G.L.. >Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >Alan _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 16:56:49 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:56:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim, the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a? vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>>? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. ? ? I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an? additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to fully equalize the hull. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Alec, ? It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations.? The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just?for complying with their requirement.? I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP.? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? ? The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo?with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open.? Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up.? If?not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. ? I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not.? Only experience will answer that.? I have a couple of?very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive.? I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it.? On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded.? You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. ? I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. ?? ? As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. ?? ? Best, Alec ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull ? It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position.? In other words, you have to move the handle to?out of the way before you can get to the hatch release.? ? Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic.? It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open.? It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable?depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief.? You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface.? If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. ? Jim ? ? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ? ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM ? Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? Hank? ? On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >& supervision approved by G.L.. >Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >Alan _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Dec 11 17:05:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 11 Dec 2013 22:05 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more. On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening to equalize and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 17:28:18 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:28:18 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch. I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose. Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: > > Jim, > the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a > vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched > & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. > >>> However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. > G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall > are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located > immediately at the hull wall. > I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an > additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to > fully equalize the hull. > Alan > From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > Hi Alec, > > It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. > > The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. > > I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. > > Best regards, > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Smyth, Alec > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. > > I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. > > As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. > > Best, > > Alec > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. > > Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > Alan > > No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > > On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > > On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: hank pronk ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM > > Alan, > Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. > Hank > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism > is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after > equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? > Thanks > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi, > I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction > regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. > G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. > Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal > & supervision approved by G.L.. > Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need > to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the > hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that > the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. > Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. > Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. > If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. > Alan > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 17:46:33 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:46:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the? movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure? valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the? equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how ?that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull E-Mail Software 6.0 I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more.?? On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works.? In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening? to equalize? and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch?very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: >Advantage: ABS > >I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded.? With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics.? Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel.? If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. > >Jon > > >On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hi Doug, >>Elaborating on your idea. >>If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system >>comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a? >>similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet >>that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch >>release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would >>need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily >>& the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- >>With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know >> >>that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is >>what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is >>not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch? >>if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. >>So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring.? >>I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your >>hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly >>open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally >>as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. >>Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. >>Alan >> >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Dec 11 18:11:35 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:11:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C4DD788B0BC8-111C-AAFF@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch. I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose. Jim Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>> However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to fully equalize the hull. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Alec, It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From:hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 18:19:25 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:19:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4DD788B0BC8-111C-AAFF@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4DD788B0BC8-111C-AAFF@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386803965.76288.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance, have you had any experience of hatches flying open due to over-pressure, (is it an issue with an over-pressure valve set low) or know of fail safe mechanisms to ensure pressure equalization before opening the hatch. Thanks, Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. ?When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. ?I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch.? I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose.? Jim? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, >the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a? >vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched >& it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>>>? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? >G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall >are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located >immediately at the hull wall. >? ? I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an? >additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to >fully equalize the hull. >Alan > >________________________________ > From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > > > > >Hi Alec, >? >It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations.? The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just?for complying with their requirement.? I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP.? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? >? >The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo?with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open.? Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up.? If?not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. >? >I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not.? Only experience will answer that.? I have a couple of?very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive.? I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it.? On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded.? You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. >? >Best regards, >Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Smyth, Alec >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > >Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. >? >I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. ?? >? >As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. ?? >? >Best, > >Alec >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >? >It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position.? In other words, you have to move the handle to?out of the way before you can get to the hatch release.? >? >Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic.? It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open.? It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable?depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief.? You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface.? If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. >? >Jim >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Alan > >No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > >On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > >On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? > >________________________________ > >From: hank pronk ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM >? >Alan, >Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? >Hank? >? >On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: >Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism >is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after >equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? >Thanks >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: >Hi, >>I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >>regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >>G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >>Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >>& supervision approved by G.L.. >>Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >>to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >>hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >>the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >>Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >>Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >>If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >>Alan >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Dec 11 18:53:27 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:53:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386803965.76288.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4DD788B0BC8-111C-AAFF@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> <1386803965.76288.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C4E351B8F45F-111C-AE10@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> No. Anything is possible, I suppose, but I've never allowed the internal pressure to vary more than 1/2 to 1 inch of vacuum from absolute. If your cabin pressure is climbing in spite of that, then you need to look for a leak and fix it (thus the tool kit, which always carried appropriate wrenches and a bottle of Snoop). Plus we had the double acting vent line on the panel to vent or fill once back on the surface. I harp on and off about the tendency of some in our group to look for shiny cheap valves with suitable ratings. In my view it's the old yacht formula: Fast, cheap, comfortable--pick two. You can't have all three. In our case: Durable, dependable, expensive--pick three, every time. It's part of the price of doing business. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, have you had any experience of hatches flying open due to over-pressure, (is it an issue with an over-pressure valve set low) or know of fail safe mechanisms to ensure pressure equalization before opening the hatch. Thanks, Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch. I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose. Jim Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>> However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to fully equalize the hull. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Alec, It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From:hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 19:17:33 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:17:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <8D0C4E6AFE1BA6A-1F8-B4C5@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Vance, 1/2" of vac sounds good. That would be 0.3 psi or about 2% of the air in the cabin. Come to think of it, a vac might move a greater volume of air more quickly than a compressor since you're not seeking any appreciable pressure differential. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, have you had any experience of hatches flying open due to over-pressure, (is it an issue with an over-pressure valve set low) or know of fail safe mechanisms to ensure pressure equalization before opening the hatch. Thanks, Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch. I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose. Jim Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>> However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to fully equalize the hull. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Alec, It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From:hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 19:22:56 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:22:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4E351B8F45F-111C-AE10@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4CB784DB7BF-1F8-A487@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386799009.10229.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4DD788B0BC8-111C-AAFF@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> <1386803965.76288.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4E351B8F45F-111C-AE10@webmail-m261.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386807776.24011.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, maybe I'll side with ABS on this issue. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull No. Anything is possible, I suppose, but I've never allowed the internal pressure to vary more than 1/2 to 1 inch of vacuum from absolute. If your cabin pressure is climbing in spite of that, then you need to look for a leak and fix it (thus the tool kit, which always carried appropriate wrenches and a bottle of Snoop). Plus we had the double acting vent line on the panel to vent or fill once back on the surface. I harp on and off about the tendency of some in our group to look for shiny cheap valves with suitable ratings. In my view it's the old yacht formula: Fast, cheap, comfortable--pick two. You can't have all three. In our case: Durable, dependable, expensive--pick three, every time. It's part of the price of doing business. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, have you had any experience of hatches flying open due to over-pressure, (is it an issue with an over-pressure valve set low) or know of fail safe mechanisms to ensure pressure equalization before opening the hatch. Thanks, Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. ?When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. ?I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch.? I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose.? Jim? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, >the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a? >vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched >& it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>>>? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? >G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall >are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located >immediately at the hull wall. >? ? I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an? >additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to >fully equalize the hull. >Alan > >________________________________ > From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > > > > >Hi Alec, >? >It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations.? The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just?for complying with their requirement.? I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP.? However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak.? >? >The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo?with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open.? Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up.? If?not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. >? >I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not.? Only experience will answer that.? I have a couple of?very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive.? I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it.? On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded.? You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. >? >Best regards, >Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Smyth, Alec >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > >Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. >? >I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. ?? >? >As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. ?? >? >Best, > >Alec >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >? >It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position.? In other words, you have to move the handle to?out of the way before you can get to the hatch release.? >? >Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic.? It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open.? It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable?depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief.? You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface.? If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. >? >Jim >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Alan > >No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. > >On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. > >On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? > >________________________________ > >From: hank pronk ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull >Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM >? >Alan, >Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull??or external pressure.?? >Hank? >? >On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan wrote: >Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism >is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after >equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? >Thanks >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: >Hi, >>I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >>regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >>G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >>Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >>& supervision approved by G.L.. >>Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >>to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >>hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >>the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >>Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >>Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >>If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >>Alan >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Wed Dec 11 19:23:16 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:23:16 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4E6AFE1BA6A-1F8-B4C5@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4E6AFE1BA6A-1F8-B4C5@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6BE8C4-52AC-43BF-B999-420074393AB3@covisint.com> I just stick the vacuum hose onto the outside of the over pressure valve, it works like a charm and doesn't require any extra fitting. Best, Alec On Dec 11, 2013, at 7:18 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > wrote: Vance, 1/2" of vac sounds good. That would be 0.3 psi or about 2% of the air in the cabin. Come to think of it, a vac might move a greater volume of air more quickly than a compressor since you're not seeking any appreciable pressure differential. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, have you had any experience of hatches flying open due to over-pressure, (is it an issue with an over-pressure valve set low) or know of fail safe mechanisms to ensure pressure equalization before opening the hatch. Thanks, Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull They use a small shop vac on the DWs. Cost thirty bucks. All you need to do is pull something measurable on your barometer, maybe 1/2" of vacuum, then close the valve and watch. If it holds, you go. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jim Todd > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, You're right, and I think ABS also has the same cutoff requirement. When I Iooked back at my design notes I saw that I did have a manual cutoff with the AOP. I'd prefer to go with a light on the indicator panel instead of position near the latch. I'm familiar with the DW vacuum setup. Haven't done the calcs to see how long I'd have to let the little compressor run. Have to wear ear protectors I suppose. Jim Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Alan James > wrote: Jim, the Deep Workers have an external attachment for pulling a vacuum pre dive to set the seals. However they are boat launched & it would be more of an issue if there was a slight leak in the hatch seal. >>> However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. G.L. Section 9 B, 1.2 .....Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. I am interpreting this as meaning that the over-pressure valve requires an additional valve, which makes it difficult to use the over-pressure valve to fully equalize the hull. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Alec, It sounds like GL is setting up standards to idiot-proof operations. The manual OP valve blocking the hatch latch is just for complying with their requirement. I hadn't previously thought of a manual OP valve to go with the AOP. However I think I would like to have a way to cap off the AOP if it began to leak. The interlock is for situations such as someone closing the hatch but forgetting to latch it or diving solo with the pilot's hatch closed and a rear hatch open. Meticulously following the checklist prevents such disasters, but people sometimes screw up. If not an interlock I would at least want indicator lights rather than depend on a rear passenger's assurances that all is latched. I don't know if I would pull a slight vacuum before every dive or not. Only experience will answer that. I have a couple of very small 12V compressors around to try on a shop dive. I may decide I like one and can find a place to mount it. On the other hand it might be a slagiatt (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time) that gets discarded. You've saved me from a couple of my ideas in the past. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Smyth, Alec > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Gents, I think we?re seriously over-complicating this one. The automatic overpressure valves typically have a spring loaded stem. Want a manual valve? All you do is put your finger on the stem and press a little. You would do that if you wanted to open the valve at less than its cracking pressure, or just for a little ventilation when there is no pressure differential. I?m not following the interlock part, because if the valve is automatic then you are always equalized and can?t open the hatch in any other condition. As for installing a compressor just for the purposes of pulling a pre-dive vacuum, in my opinion it has a way too high moving-parts-to-benefit ratio. You can pull a vacuum at the start of the day, on land or (I wish) on the deck of your support ship. But afloat before every single dive? I?m not aware of anyone doing that. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:20 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull It seems that the need for sensing could be eliminated (as far as the present question goes) by positioning the handle for the pressure relief valve in such a manner that it would interfere with releasing the hatch latch unless the relief valve handle was in the open position. In other words, you have to move the handle to out of the way before you can get to the hatch release. Having a manual control handle doesn't preclude the relief valve from being automatic. It just means the manual portion leading to the auto portion was open. It seems like a good idea for the manual valve to be opened at some reasonable depth prior to surfacing so any overpressure is free to flow to the auto relief. You don't want overpressure to blow the hatch open when you're still two feet below the surface. If the relief system is entirely manual, you have to wait until surfaced to open the valve unless the overpressure is particularly high. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan No definitive answer but we can postulate that both sensing and actuation are involved. On sensing, differential pressure on either side of the hatch is translated to a impulse to actuation. On actuation, a method of locking out the operator from physically un-dogging the hatch, is the only way to meet the standard as per your O.P. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 2:36:26 PM Alan, Is this equalization from overpressure inside the hull? or external pressure. Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:23:21 AM, Alan > wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James > wrote: Hi, I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal & supervision approved by G.L.. Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 19:49:50 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:49:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Alan, Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open. In fact you could leave it open all the time. The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch. As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well. If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation. I wouldn't want to have that setup. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more. On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening to equalize and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 20:46:28 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:46:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Jim, I don't think we are on the same page. The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down? to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation. Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to fully equalize positive or negative pressure. So you would need to have? the AOP?after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it.? The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would have no bearing on the state of pressure equalization beyond what the AOP would achieve.? Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, ? Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open.? In fact you could leave it open all the time.? The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch.??As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. ?Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well.? ? If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation.? I wouldn't want to have that setup. ? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the? movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure? valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the? equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how ?that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more.?? On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works.? In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening? to equalize? and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch?very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: >Advantage: ABS > >I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded.? With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics.? Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel.? If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. > >Jon > > >On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hi Doug, >>Elaborating on your idea. >>If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system >>comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a? >>similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet >>that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch >>release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would >>need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily >>& the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- >>With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know >> >>that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is >>what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is >>not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch? >>if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. >>So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring.? >>I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your >>hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly >>open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally >>as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. >>Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. >>Alan >> >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From searov at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 11 20:56:07 2013 From: searov at xtra.co.nz (Keith Gordon) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:56:07 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi On Pisces 8 - the approved manual method to equalise pressure was to swing your weight on the hatch locking mechanism and turn to unlatch maintaing your weight on the handles and "burp" any excess internal pressure! Gives visions of exiting the sub like a polaris missile! Keith Gordon On 11/12/2013, at 9:22 PM, Alan wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism > is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after > equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? > Thanks > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: > >> Hi, >> I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >> regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >> G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >> Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >> & supervision approved by G.L.. >> Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >> to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >> hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >> the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >> Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >> Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >> If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 21:30:44 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:30:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Alan, Right, the AOP would not be accessible the way I described. Under-pressure would have to be addressed as Vance described. As long as the differential pressure is minimal in either direction you can equalize it on the surface. Hopefully that would always be the situation. For equalizing on the surface I don't know that it makes much difference whether your valve is manual or automatic. However if you have a significant OP situation while submerged (say 3 psi or greater) either unrecognized or unresolvable, you could have a ton of pressure on the hatch before you reach the surface. We'll never know how much OP Capt. Kitteredge encountered when he suddenly found himself outside the sub with the sub sinking. Whatever that amount was he wasn't aware that it even existed. If the AOP is installed below the manual valve, then you will admit water into the line if you open it when submerged. If you only open it on the surface, the only reason I can see for having an automatic instead of a manual is in case you forget to open it. There certainly could be some other consideration I'm missing. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Jim, I don't think we are on the same page. The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation. Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to fully equalize positive or negative pressure. So you would need to have the AOP after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it. The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would have no bearing on the state of pressure equalization beyond what the AOP would achieve. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open. In fact you could leave it open all the time. The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch. As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well. If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation. I wouldn't want to have that setup. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more. On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening to equalize and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 21:55:34 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:55:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1386816934.62560.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Jim, If you placed the through hull for the AOP valve on the hull wall above the water line? when surfaced, but not?on the roof of the sub, then you could mount the AOP? above the hull?stop safety valve. This would eliminate the small amount of water? that does?sit in the AOP valve when roof mounted, from coming in. I haven't got to it yet in G.L. but there is bound to be some sort of over-pressure? alarm?requirement which would alert you to surface slowly. ? ?I am thinking along the lines of a cam wheel on the hatch closure mechanism that? plunges?the AOP ?valve stem when rotated slightly & comes off again when closed. Regards Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, ? Right, the AOP would not be accessible the way I described.??Under-pressure would have to be addressed as Vance described.? As long as the differential pressure is minimal in either direction you can equalize it on the surface.? Hopefully that would always be the situation.? For equalizing on the surface I don't know that it makes much difference whether your valve is manual or automatic.? However if you have a significant OP situation while submerged?(say 3 psi or greater)?either unrecognized or unresolvable, you could have?a ton of pressure on the hatch before you reach the surface.? We'll never know how much OP Capt. Kitteredgeencountered when he suddenly found himself outside the sub with the sub sinking.? Whatever that amount was he wasn't aware that it even existed. ? If the AOP is installed below the manual valve, then you will admit water into the line if you open it when submerged.? If you only open it on the surface, the only reason I can see for having an automatic instead of a?manual is in case you forget to open it.? There certainly could be some other consideration I'm missing. ? Jim ? ? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Jim, I don't think we are on the same page. The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down? to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation. Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to fully equalize positive or negative pressure. So you would need to have? the AOP?after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it.? The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would have no bearing on the state of pressure equalization beyond what the AOP would achieve.? Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, ? Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open.? In fact you could leave it open all the time.? The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch.??As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. ?Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well.? ? If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation.? I wouldn't want to have that setup. ? Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the? movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure? valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the? equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how ?that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more.?? On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works.? In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening? to equalize? and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch?very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: >Advantage: ABS > >I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded.? With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics.? Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel.? If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. > >Jon > > >On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hi Doug, >>Elaborating on your idea. >>If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system >>comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a? >>similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet >>that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch >>release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would >>need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily >>& the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- >>With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know >> >>that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is >>what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is >>not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch? >>if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. >>So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring.? >>I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your >>hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly >>open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally >>as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. >>Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. >>Alan >> >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 11 21:57:30 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:57:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Keith, hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments earlier? Keith owns a ROV company. Alan ________________________________ From: Keith Gordon To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi? On Pisces 8 - the approved manual method to equalise pressure was to swing your weight on the hatch locking mechanism and turn to unlatch maintaing your weight on the handles and "burp" any excess internal pressure! Gives visions of exiting the sub like a polaris missile! Keith Gordon On 11/12/2013, at 9:22 PM, Alan wrote: Can anyone enlighten me on what sought of mechanism is used that renders the opening of the hatch possible only after equalisation, as per G.L. Requirements? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/12/2013, at 3:01 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm not covering much in this section because if I started on construction >regulations, I would just be duplicating what was printed. >G.L. wants you to have manufacturer certificates for every non structural screw. >Any company you contract to do your welding has to have their facilities, personal >& supervision approved by G.L.. >Some points of interest are.... hatches need to be opened from both sides, they need >to be able to be secured open, they need to be designed in a way that opening of the >hatch is only possible after equalization. Two measures are required to guarantee that >the hatches are closed & secured before diving; one measure is to be visibly noticeable. >Mechanical measures for stopping a banging of the hatch is required. >Any external through hulls are to be protected against damage by appendages or covers. >If you are doing calculations on a computer you have to prove that the program is suitable. >Alan _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 11 22:45:31 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:45:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386816934.62560.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386816934.62560.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C503BD95BA7E-1F8-C16D@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, There isn't much distance between the water line and the top of the hull especially if you consider a little roll and wave action. I've wondered how much seepage you would get if the AOP opened under water in response to OP. Since the flow would be outward I'm hoping it wouldn't be much. Those people who already have functioning AOPs could speak better than I can regarding water entry when surfaced. I'm hoping the water sheds nearly completely on the outside. If your design uses a conning tower, you could possibly mount it horizontally near the top if necessary. I'm getting into guessing now in the absence of having an AOP and penetrator in my hand to play with. I'm hoping the only experience I ever have with underwater operation of an AOP valve is with a test chamber I can build and pressurize. Won't be anytime soon. Good luck! Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:56 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Jim, If you placed the through hull for the AOP valve on the hull wall above the water line when surfaced, but not on the roof of the sub, then you could mount the AOP above the hull stop safety valve. This would eliminate the small amount of water that does sit in the AOP valve when roof mounted, from coming in. I haven't got to it yet in G.L. but there is bound to be some sort of over-pressure alarm requirement which would alert you to surface slowly. I am thinking along the lines of a cam wheel on the hatch closure mechanism that plunges the AOP valve stem when rotated slightly & comes off again when closed. Regards Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, Right, the AOP would not be accessible the way I described. Under-pressure would have to be addressed as Vance described. As long as the differential pressure is minimal in either direction you can equalize it on the surface. Hopefully that would always be the situation. For equalizing on the surface I don't know that it makes much difference whether your valve is manual or automatic. However if you have a significant OP situation while submerged (say 3 psi or greater) either unrecognized or unresolvable, you could have a ton of pressure on the hatch before you reach the surface. We'll never know how much OP Capt. Kitteredge encountered when he suddenly found himself outside the sub with the sub sinking. Whatever that amount was he wasn't aware that it even existed. If the AOP is installed below the manual valve, then you will admit water into the line if you open it when submerged. If you only open it on the surface, the only reason I can see for having an automatic instead of a manual is in case you forget to open it. There certainly could be some other consideration I'm missing. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Jim, I don't think we are on the same page. The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation. Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to fully equalize positive or negative pressure. So you would need to have the AOP after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it. The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would have no bearing on the state of pressure equalization beyond what the AOP would achieve. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open. In fact you could leave it open all the time. The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch. As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well. If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation. I wouldn't want to have that setup. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more. On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening to equalize and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfreihof at aol.com Thu Dec 12 08:44:53 2013 From: sfreihof at aol.com (Stanley Freihofer) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:44:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Auction: Ride a Nuytco sub.... In-Reply-To: References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C557786E9F8A-B7C-7A9@webmail-va017.sysops.aol.com> Here's an item I thought may be of interest here, to support Jean-Michel Coustea's Ocean Futures Society, while getting a ride in one of Nuytco's subs.... through auction. Mimimum bid is now $850.00. Great idea, Phil! https://www.biddingforgood.com/auction/item/item.action?id=205376325 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Dec 12 09:13:39 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:13:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense. PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: > Thanks Keith, > hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments > earlier *:) happy > Keith owns a ROV company. > Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 10:16:33 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:16:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1386861393.35541.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe ?attachments.??I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft.? I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect.? Hank? On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: Thanks Keith, >hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments >earlier? >Keith owns a ROV company. >Alan > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Thu Dec 12 11:48:21 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:48:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> <1386861393.35541.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101cef759$f79acb30$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe. It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe attachments. I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft. I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense. PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: Thanks Keith, hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments earlier Keith owns a ROV company. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 12:31:05 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:31:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <002101cef759$f79acb30$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> <1386861393.35541.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002101cef759$f79acb30$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1386869465.75092.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan, Thank you, I will play around with it.? I guess that's how we learn. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:48:21 AM, Dan H. wrote: If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe.? It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > >Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe ?attachments.??I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft.? I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect.? >Hank? > > > >On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > >I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. > >Jon > > > >On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Thanks Keith, >>hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments >>earlier? >>Keith owns a ROV company. >>Alan >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 13:28:11 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:28:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386869465.75092.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> <1386861393.35541.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002101cef759$f79acb30$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1386869465.75092.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386872891.45201.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I posted a picture of my new motor and seal assembly, (Gamma Restoration) ?you can see I put? bearings and seals in the tail cone.?You can't see it but?I also have two ss lines that feed water to the shaft tube from outside the mbt.? This ensures the tube fills before I run the motor and also drains to prevent freezing. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:31:05 AM, hank pronk wrote: Dan, Thank you, I will play around with it.? I guess that's how we learn. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:48:21 AM, Dan H. wrote: If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe.? It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > >Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe ?attachments.??I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft.? I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect.? >Hank? > > > >On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > >I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. > >Jon > > > >On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Thanks Keith, >>hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments >>earlier? >>Keith owns a ROV company. >>Alan >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Dec 12 13:33:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 12 Dec 2013 18:33 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. :-O SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. very best regards Carsten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 12 13:56:31 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:56:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386872891.45201.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <1386817050.76806.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> <1386861393.35541.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002101cef759$f79acb30$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1386869465.75092.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386872891.45201.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C58301826EA7-6D0-2D6C@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> Beautiful job, Hank. It looks great. And the motor is shiny! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 12, 2013 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I posted a picture of my new motor and seal assembly, (Gamma Restoration) you can see I put bearings and seals in the tail cone. You can't see it but I also have two ss lines that feed water to the shaft tube from outside the mbt. This ensures the tube fills before I run the motor and also drains to prevent freezing. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:31:05 AM, hank pronk wrote: Dan, Thank you, I will play around with it. I guess that's how we learn. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:48:21 AM, Dan H. wrote: If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe. It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe attachments. I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft. I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense. PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: Thanks Keith, hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments earlier Keith owns a ROV company. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Dec 12 14:06:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 12 Dec 2013 19:06 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C4EB321E3A2F-1F8-B733@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <1386812788.44608.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C4F94B0B4CCB-1F8-BD65@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1VrBbm-3NcUVc0@fwd09.t-online.de> Jim an AOP opens only under water in a over pressure situation. Means air rush out but nearly no water in. On the surface you just push the button on the valve below the spring and you equalize the rest. Sgt.Peppers has such a valve and Eurosub/Javasub/Nordicsub also. Some other sub has simillar design valve. And no problems with a hatch flying. Sometime with a to low spring load they leak a drop- so what? On Peppers the push button below the spring is formed as small cup.. A manual vale like a ball vale can be only open on the surface - means you can create a heavy overpressure load on the latches. On Euronaut we had only a manual ball valve and a overpressure situation because of a heavy air leak (a human turns the wrong air valve and over pressure the cabin. We decide to open the manual ball valve during the ascent to prevent a overload on the latches and the operator under the valve get very wet before we reach the surface. If you view you atmostpheric gauge (barometer or aircraft altimeter) time by time and you have a compressor you can equalize also with that the overpressure. On Euronaut we have two compressor which can handle hundreds of liter per minutes to equalize or even create a vaccum. Unfortune on that day nobody turns the aircraft altimeter to zero - so we had no information what equalize means and we decide to open the ball valve underwater manual. I now at least two submarines in psub sizes which had serious problems with cabin over pressure. In one the hatch/dome plopps open in 2 feet water depth but lucky the hatch/dome close again. The pilot got very wet - thats all. In the other boat the hatch/dome plopps open in 3 feet of water and stays open. The boat sunk. One crew under the hatch manage get out immedatly the other with iron balls (and thousands of hours as diver) stays in the wreck and climp out after the boat hit the ground in 28 feet depth. The boat was later salvage but all electronics and electric was complete destroyed.. vbr Carsten schrieb: Alan, Right, the AOP would not be accessible the way I described. Under-pressure would have to be addressed as Vance described. As long as the differential pressure is minimal in either direction you can equalize it on the surface. Hopefully that would always be the situation. For equalizing on the surface I don't know that it makes much difference whether your valve is manual or automatic. However if you have a significant OP situation while submerged (say 3 psi or greater) either unrecognized or unresolvable, you could have a ton of pressure on the hatch before you reach the surface. We'll never know how much OP Capt. Kitteredge encountered when he suddenly found himself outside the sub with the sub sinking. Whatever that amount was he wasn't aware that it even existed. If the AOP is installed below the manual valve, then you will admit water into the line if you open it when submerged. If you only open it on the surface, the only reason I can see for having an automatic instead of a manual is in case you forget to open it. There certainly could be some other consideration I'm missing. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Hi Jim, I don't think we are on the same page. The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation. Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to fully equalize positive or negative pressure. So you would need to have the AOP after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it. The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would have no bearing on the state of pressure equalization beyond what the AOP would achieve. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Alan, Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open. In fact you could leave it open all the time. The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch. As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well. If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation. I wouldn't want to have that setup. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves, I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure valve anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved. Alan From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull I am pretty sure GL and the other classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution without electronics a lot more. On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch and a red label on the hatch handle "Never open before equalize". Its not with the rule because we assume the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. In case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the ballvalve handle in close position the hatch handle or the latches. Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread handle that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches only a litte opening to equalize and gives the latches later complete free with more turns. In that way you can open the hatch very fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. And you can still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: Advantage: ABS I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo 1. Jon On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Doug, Elaborating on your idea. If you had digital pressure gauges you could have a system comparing the voltage of the two, & when they were in a similar range they would activate or deactivate an electromagnet that pulled back a latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch release mechanism. (car door lock mechanism) You would need a manual over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily & the car lock mechanisms I've seen for round $20- With the over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know that on the surface the most over pressure there could be is what your over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is not such an issue as you won't be able to physically open the hatch if the under pressure is too much, & hence you have to equalize. So I don't think it needs sophisticated monitoring. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be if you opened your hatch with a couple of psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly open at 90 miles an hour, or would pressure be released incrementally as the hatch dogs unlatched before fully releasing. Obviously G.L. thinks this is an issue. Alan -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 12 14:36:03 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:36:03 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> Message-ID: <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> Carsten, Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with air in the dome. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: > > If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan > movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be > spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility > of diving with the valve open later on. > > > Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet > learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. > > :-O > > SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an > simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. > Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. > The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. > The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. > > very best regards > > Carsten > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 15:27:06 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:27:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) Hank? On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: Carsten, Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with air in the dome.? Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. :-O?? SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. very best regards Carsten _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Dec 12 17:44:01 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:44:01 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Message-ID: <201312121444644.SM02148@[66.162.33.185]> Is that so you don't have to compensate that area? -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/12/2013 10:28:11 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure HullVance,I posted a picture of my new motor and seal assembly, (Gamma Restoration) ?you can see I put? bearings and seals in the tail cone.?You can't see it but?I also have two ss lines that feed water to the shaft tube from outside the mbt.? This ensures the tube fills before I run the motor and also drains to prevent freezing.Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:31:05 AM, hank pronk wrote:Dan,Thank you, I will play around with it.? I guess that's how we learn.Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:48:21 AM, Dan H. wrote:If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe.? It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces.? ?Dan H.----- Original Message ----- From:hank pronkTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure HullDoes anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe ?attachments.??I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft.? I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect.?Hank?On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote:Thanks Keith,hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV commentsearlier?Keith owns a ROV company.Alan_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 18:01:36 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <201312121444644.SM02148@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201312121444644.SM02148@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1386889296.93693.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Brian, Yes the bearing housing is completely full of oil, no compensation needed.? Did you test your battery pods? Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:44:01 PM, brian wrote: Is that so you don't have to compensate that area? -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/12/2013 10:28:11 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I posted a picture of my new motor and seal assembly, (Gamma Restoration) ?you can see I put? bearings and seals in the tail cone.?You can't see it but?I also have two ss lines that feed water to the shaft tube from outside the mbt.? This ensures the tube fills before I run the motor and also drains to prevent freezing. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:31:05 AM, hank pronk wrote: Dan, Thank you, I will play around with it.? I guess that's how we learn. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:48:21 AM, Dan H. wrote: If you don't have a taper attachment, use the compound slide on the lathe.? It's tricky to set since your working on fractions of a degree for a good fit but you fine tune it with a few trial pieces.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:16 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull > > >Does anyone have a trick to machining an inside taper without lathe ?attachments.??I need to make a hub to fit a tapered shaft.? I made one by trial and error and it will work but it is not perfect.? >Hank? > > > >On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:13:39 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > >I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. > >Jon > > > >On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Thanks Keith, >>hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments >>earlier? >>Keith owns a ROV company. >>Alan >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Thu Dec 12 18:33:31 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1386891211.96057.YahooMailBasic@web140501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Blame it on Dr. Phil -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/12/13, Jon Wallace wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 6:13 AM I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions here as well. Jon On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: Thanks Keith, hope didn't see the phone sex & ROV comments earlier? Keith owns a ROV company. Alan -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 12 20:43:09 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386891211.96057.YahooMailBasic@web140501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52A9C493.9050000@psubs.org> <1386891211.96057.YahooMailBasic@web140501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386898989.62125.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Gamma, does not have an automatic ?over pressure valve.? Maybe it is because the hatch is just 18in dia, almost half the area of? a 24in dome.? Also the windows are secured very well.? I will be installing one in the hatch, to protect myself from myself.? Carsten makes a very good case for having one.? Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:33:31 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Blame it on Dr. Phil -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/12/13, Jon Wallace wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 6:13 AM ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I should have stated up front that we were just having some fun ? ? ? and I hope nobody concentrating on ROV/AUV development and ? ? ? operation takes offense.? PSUBS welcomes ROV and AUV discussions ? ? ? here as well. ? ? ? ? ? ? Jon ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? On 12/11/2013 9:57 PM, Alan James wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Thanks Keith, ? ? ? ? hope didn't see the ? ? ? ? ? ? phone sex & ROV comments ? ? ? ? earlier? ? ? ? ? Keith owns a ROV company. ? ? ? ? Alan ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 00:46:28 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 00:46:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Auction: Ride a Nuytco sub.... In-Reply-To: <8D0C557786E9F8A-B7C-7A9@webmail-va017.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386727306.96598.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F87310A-7C45-4D09-B017-132E1FE8D3C4@yahoo.com> <8D0C557786E9F8A-B7C-7A9@webmail-va017.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: This will be an awesome opportunity for some lucky duck! On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Stanley Freihofer wrote: > Here's an item I thought may be of interest here, to support Jean-Michel > Coustea's Ocean Futures Society, while getting a ride in one of Nuytco's > subs.... through auction. Mimimum bid is now $850.00. Great idea, Phil! > > https://www.biddingforgood.com/auction/item/item.action?id=205376325 > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Dec 13 10:02:30 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:02:30 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 13 10:17:29 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1386947849.14011.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Dec 13 10:55:54 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:55:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Dec 13 11:23:34 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:23:34 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: > If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to > do a 20' stretch? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > Hi Scott, > That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat > ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between > truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp > angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like > the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead > until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your > away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. > > > On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters > wrote: > I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I > have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge > extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is > to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a > hitch on it? Any reccomendations? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 11:40:41 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:40:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland < jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Scott, > Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. > Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not > going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer > bed and attach it when needed. > > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ > > James > > On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: > >> If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need >> to do a 20' stretch? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> hank pronk wrote: >> Hi Scott, >> That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat >> ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between >> truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp >> angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like >> the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead >> until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your >> away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. >> >> >> On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters >> wrote: >> I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I >> have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge >> extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is >> to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a >> hitch on it? Any reccomendations? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Dec 13 12:48:32 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:48:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Dec 13 13:34:23 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1386959663.45733.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Doug, had a very novel & quick way of launching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zETTwopC8D0 Alan ________________________________ From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >From: Alec Smyth >Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Hi Scott, > > >Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. > > >https://vimeo.com/18213498 > > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >Hi Scott, >>Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. >>? >>http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ >>? >>James >> >> >>On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: >> >>If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? >>>Thanks, >>>Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>>hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Hi Scott, >>>That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. >>> >>> >>> >>>On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: >>> >>>I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? >>>Thanks, >>>Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Dec 13 13:51:14 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:51:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: <1386959663.45733.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1386959663.45733.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C64B6DEDED6E-1BBC-8978@webmail-m287.sysops.aol.com> Now THAT'S a lot of help! Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 13, 2013 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Doug, had a very novel & quick way of launching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zETTwopC8D0 Alan From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar similar to this from my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Fri Dec 13 15:52:35 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:52:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer References: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <005901cef845$40d86b40$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Scott, I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the outer tube and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube. 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each. 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner. It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar similar to this from my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Dec 13 16:48:19 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:48:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: <005901cef845$40d86b40$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <005901cef845$40d86b40$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1386971299.73821.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My idea was to make the existing hitch telescope out of the trailer.? No need to add bars or poles.? Just pull the pin and drive ahead, when the wheels pull against the chalks stop and put the pin in.? Back into the water.? The only problem may be the trailer is not long enough to have the length of extension you want.? Hank On Friday, December 13, 2013 1:58:21 PM, Dan H. wrote: Scott, ? I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. ? If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? ? Dan H.? ----- Original Message ----- >From: swaters at waters-ks.com >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer > > >I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. >Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? >Thanks, >Scott Waters? > >-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >>From: Alec Smyth >>Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> >>Hi Scott, >> >> >>Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. >> >> >>https://vimeo.com/18213498 >> >> >> >>Best, >> >>Alec >> >> >> >>On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: >> >>Hi Scott, >>>Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. >>> >>>http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ >>> >>>James >>> >>> >>>On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: >>> >>>If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>> >>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>> >>>>Hi Scott, >>>>That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: >>>> >>>>I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Dec 13 17:50:57 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:50:57 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: Dan How long is it when it is fully extended? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Dan H." wrote:Scott, ? I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. ? If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? ? Dan H.? ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. ? http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ ? James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 14 13:07:47 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:07:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) Hank? On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: Carsten, Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with air in the dome.? Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. :-O?? SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. very best regards Carsten _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Sat Dec 14 13:12:40 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:12:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: > I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi. The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up. I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi. I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing. Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Vance, > Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft. Rookie machinist and all. :-) > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: > Carsten, > Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. > As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my > head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if > I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. > The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet > than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the > AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, > as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with > air in the dome. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: > >> > > If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan > movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be > spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility > of diving with the valve open later on. > > > Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet > learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. > > :-O > > SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an > simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. > Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. > The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. > The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. > > very best regards > > Carsten >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Sat Dec 14 14:12:53 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:12:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer References: <20131213104832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2f6ea43289.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <005901cef845$40d86b40$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1386971299.73821.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004401cef900$7d7503e0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Hank, I did it the way I did for several reasons. The first was to get as much extension as I could. My pipes are 10 feet long each with a few more inches for the ball mount and a few more inches of hitch length. Fully extended there is about a foot and a half over lap. So fully extended it increases my reach about 19 feet. I couldn't get that much out of a slider in the trailer. If it was a slider in the trailer, it would have to be heavy enough to take the tong weight without flexing to much. My tong weight is all on my spare tire that is also a fifth wheel and tire for launching. Of course, to get it off the boat ramp the tong extension has to be removed, hook back to the truck and the fifth wheel lifted off the ground. All I can do with the pole extension is move it straight back and forth. My trailer is built with the deck below the trailer frame so the sub can be as low as possible for launching. There wouldn't be room for a straight tong to go all the way back and still have a trailer deck that's about eight inches off the ground. Using a trailer with say forty feet from truck tires to trailer tires would be impossible to launch at most boat ramps I use. To launch my sub I need a ramp where there is 5 feet of water within 40 feet from shore. My trailer behind my truck with the truck tires in a little bit of water will get the center of my sub out that far. It's surprising how many lake boat ramps don't have enough water for me to launch from. And some that do have big washouts I have to back through to get out far enough. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer My idea was to make the existing hitch telescope out of the trailer. No need to add bars or poles. Just pull the pin and drive ahead, when the wheels pull against the chalks stop and put the pin in. Back into the water. The only problem may be the trailer is not long enough to have the length of extension you want. Hank On Friday, December 13, 2013 1:58:21 PM, Dan H. wrote: Scott, I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the outer tube and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube. 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each. 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner. It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar similar to this from my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Sat Dec 14 14:14:55 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:14:55 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer References: Message-ID: <005701cef900$c633e8d0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Scott, My extension is 19 feet and I get out about forty feet from shore when in the launch setup with the truck tires in a few inches of water. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Dan How long is it when it is fully extended? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Dan H." wrote: Scott, I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the outer tube and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube. 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each. 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner. It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar similar to this from my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer. Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole. Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer. It totally depends on your boat ramps. If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach. If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground. I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended. Put the pin back in the new spot and your away. If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 14 15:02:56 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:02:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Vance, I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Vance, >Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >Hank? > > > >On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: > >Carsten, >Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >air in the dome.? >Alan > > > >Sent from my iPad > >On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: > > > >If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >of diving with the valve open later on. > > >Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. > >:-O?? > >SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. > >very best regards > >Carsten > >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 14 15:10:47 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: <005701cef900$c633e8d0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <005701cef900$c633e8d0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1387051847.97012.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan, I see what you mean, my idea will not get you that much distance.? Up here our boat ramps are deeper by the sound of it.?? My idea would require a step in the sliding reach for sure.? my slide idea could also bottom out if there is a steep drop off to the ramp.? Sounds like your way is the way to go. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:20:37 PM, Dan H. wrote: Scott, ? My extension is 19 feet and I get out about forty feet from shore when in the launch setup with the truck tires in a few inches of water.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: swaters >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer > > >Dan >How long is it when it is fully extended? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >"Dan H." wrote: > >Scott, >? >I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. >? >If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? >It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? >? >Dan H.? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: swaters at waters-ks.com >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >> >> >>I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. >>Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters? >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >>>From: Alec Smyth >>>Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi Scott, >>> >>> >>>Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. >>> >>> >>>https://vimeo.com/18213498 >>> >>> >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>Alec >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>> >>>Hi Scott, >>>>Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. >>>> >>>>http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ >>>> >>>>James >>>> >>>> >>>>On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: >>>> >>>>If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>> >>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Hi Scott, >>>>>That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: >>>>> >>>>>I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Sat Dec 14 15:26:10 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Hi Vance, > I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge. What do you mean by linear. > Hank > > > On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: > How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >> I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi. The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up. I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi. I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing. Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> Vance, >> Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft. Rookie machinist and all. :-) >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >> Carsten, >> Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >> As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >> head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >> I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >> The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >> than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the >> AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >> as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >> air in the dome. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >> >>> >> >> If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >> movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >> spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >> of diving with the valve open later on. >> >> >> Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >> learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >> >> :-O >> >> SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an >> simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >> Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >> The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >> The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >> >> very best regards >> >> Carsten >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 14 15:36:47 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:36:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Vance, Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual.? Everything spins freely.? I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also.? Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, >I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: > >How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >> >>Carsten, >>Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >>AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>air in the dome.? >>Alan >> >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >> >> >> >>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>of diving with the valve open later on. >> >> >>Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >> >>:-O?? >> >>SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >>simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >> >>very best regards >> >>Carsten >> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Sat Dec 14 15:45:46 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:45:46 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Hi Vance, > Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual. Everything spins freely. I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also. > Hank > > > On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Hi Vance, >> I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge. What do you mean by linear. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: >> How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>> I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi. The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up. I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi. I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing. Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> Vance, >>> Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft. Rookie machinist and all. :-) >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >>> Carsten, >>> Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>> As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>> head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>> I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>> The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>> than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the >>> AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>> as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>> air in the dome. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>> If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>> movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>> spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>> of diving with the valve open later on. >>> >>> >>> Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>> learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >>> >>> :-O >>> >>> SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an >>> simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>> Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>> The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>> The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >>> >>> very best regards >>> >>> Carsten >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 14 16:05:51 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:05:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: <1387051847.97012.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387055151.89573.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

I'm curious as to the finished weight of Trustworthy?

You built pretty much right on plans, my nearly complete CAD model (without weights or internals) is estimating just north of 3k. I forget what was specified on the paper plans, I don't have that info on the disk. I gave my hard copies away some years ago.

Trailering, is yet another compelling reason for 36" OD.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 14 16:46:43 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now.? It is nice to have a change. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, >Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual.? Everything spins freely.? I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also.? >Hank > > > >On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > >Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Vance, >>I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: >> >>How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >>Vance >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Vance, >>>Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >>> >>>Carsten, >>>Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>>As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>>head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>>I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>>The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>>than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >>>AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>>as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>>air in the dome.? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>>of diving with the valve open later on. >>> >>> >>>Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>>learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >>> >>>:-O?? >>> >>>SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >>>simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>>Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>>The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>>The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >>> >>>very best regards >>> >>>Carsten >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sat Dec 14 19:48:09 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:48:09 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: Thanks Dan -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Dan H." wrote:Scott, ? My extension is 19 feet and I get out about forty feet from shore when in the launch setup with the truck tires in a few inches of water.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Dan How long is it when it is fully extended? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Dan H." wrote: Scott, ? I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. ? If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? ? Dan H.? ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. ? http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ ? James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sat Dec 14 19:49:51 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:49:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Message-ID: 4500 lbs roughly. I am doing some little changes and I will let you know exactly when I am done and weigh it. Thanks, Scott? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:Scott, I'm curious as to the finished weight of Trustworthy? You built pretty much right on plans, my nearly complete CAD model (without weights or internals) is estimating just north of 3k. I forget what was specified on the paper plans, I don't have that info on the disk. I gave my hard copies away some years ago. Trailering, is yet another compelling reason for 36" OD. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Sent: Sat, Dec 14, 2013 8:10:47 PM Dan, I see what you mean, my idea will not get you that much distance.? Up here our boat ramps are deeper by the sound of it.?? My idea would require a step in the sliding reach for sure.? my slide idea could also bottom out if there is a steep drop off to the ramp.? Sounds like your way is the way to go. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:20:37 PM, Dan H. wrote: Scott, ? My extension is 19 feet and I get out about forty feet from shore when in the launch setup with the truck tires in a few inches of water.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Dan How long is it when it is fully extended? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Dan H." wrote: Scott, ? I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. ? If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? ? Dan H.? ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer From: Alec Smyth Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Scott, Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. https://vimeo.com/18213498 Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Scott, Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. ? http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ ? James On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Hi Scott, That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 15 07:19:10 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 04:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1387109950.18064.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Scott. That's the same?weight my Chris Craft was (4600), all in all a manageable weight, its the draft that's causing trouble with?the necessity of these trailer extensions I suspect that the tongue?extension is the easiest no frills solution. Joe ? On Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:38 PM, swaters wrote: 4500 lbs roughly. I am doing some little changes and I will let you know exactly when I am done and weigh it. Thanks, Scott? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Scott, I'm curious as to the finished weight of Trustworthy? You built pretty much right on plans, my nearly complete CAD model (without weights or internals) is estimating just north of 3k. I forget what was specified on the paper plans, I don't have that info on the disk. I gave my hard copies away some years ago. Trailering, is yet another compelling reason for 36" OD. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Sent: Sat, Dec 14, 2013 8:10:47 PM Dan, I see what you mean, my idea will not get you that much distance.? Up here our boat ramps are deeper by the sound of it.?? My idea would require a step in the sliding reach for sure.? my slide idea could also bottom out if there is a steep drop off to the ramp.? Sounds like your way is the way to go. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:20:37 PM, Dan H. wrote: Scott, ? My extension is 19 feet and I get out about forty feet from shore when in the launch setup with the truck tires in a few inches of water.? ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: swaters >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer > > >Dan >How long is it when it is fully extended? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >"Dan H." wrote: > >Scott, >? >I used 2-1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe for the?outer tube?and 2" schedule 40 pipe for the inner tube.? 2-1/2 inch pipe actually measures about 2-7/8 inch OD. and like wise, 2" in near 2-3/8 OD. >? >If I were making another one I would jump up one size for each.? 3" pipe for the outer and 2-1/2 inch for the inner.? >It's a bit more weight but would allow you to actually push back a little?if your trailer dropped in a hole while backing in.? >? >Dan H.? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: swaters at waters-ks.com >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:48 PM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >> >> >>I like the ease of making the bar, but backing up a double trailer is pretty difficult. They way?they do it in the video is on the ramp, chalking the tires and attaching a tow strap in case it started to roll down the ramp. I currently have been launching my sub with a tow bar?similar to this from?my parents yacht club. I think the long and the short of it is?the tow bar is a better option due to ease of construction and the ability to make steeper ramps work. >>Any idea on the size of metal tubing used for Dans design? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters? >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer >>>From: Alec Smyth >>>Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 9:40 am >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi Scott, >>> >>> >>>Actually Dan H's solution is telescoping as well, and I like it better than mine, particularly if your trailer is already built as you will not need to change it. See this video, starting at 0:38. >>> >>> >>>https://vimeo.com/18213498 >>> >>> >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>Alec >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>> >>>Hi Scott, >>>>Have a look at the 3rd picture from the bottom here of Dan H's trailer.? Im going to make a very similar one out of a scaffolding pole.? Im not going to bother making it telescopic, just carry it strapped to the trailer bed and attach it when needed. >>>> >>>>http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567813/persistence/ >>>> >>>>James >>>> >>>> >>>>On 13 December 2013 15:55, swaters wrote: >>>> >>>>If you use the telescoping idea, how big of square tubing do you need to do a 20' stretch? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>> >>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Hi Scott, >>>>>That is a question with no right answer.? It totally depends on your boat ramps.? If I understand you, your choosing between a extension pole between truck and trailer and a telescopic reach.? If your boat ramps have a sharp angle at the crest then a telescopic reach may drag on the ground.? I like the telescopic reach idea because you can just pull a pin then drive ahead until the reach is extended.? Put the pin back in the new spot and your away.? If you have limited help that is the way to go. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:02:30 AM, swaters wrote: >>>>> >>>>>I am working on modifying my trailer so I can launch my sub myself. I have 2 ideas. One is the conventional idea of havinga second tounge extension trailer so I can get the length to launch the boat. The second is to have a long touge that replaces the hitch and the long tounge has a hitch on it? Any reccomendations? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 15 12:12:27 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:12:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I had the fellow who works for me buff one of the mbt windows.? he runs a small body shop in our off season, so he is a pro at buffing.? I gave him the most beat up window in the lot.? He brought it back to like new condition.? There are a couple of deep scratches that are not worth worrying about.? With water on both sides of the glass the scratches disappear.? I a very confident the original port windows will be like new when he is finished with them.? How nice is that Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:46:44 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now.? It is nice to have a change. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, >Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual.? Everything spins freely.? I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also.? >Hank > > > >On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > >Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Vance, >>I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: >> >>How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >>Vance >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Vance, >>>Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >>> >>>Carsten, >>>Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>>As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>>head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>>I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>>The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>>than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >>>AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>>as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>>air in the dome.? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>>of diving with the valve open later on. >>> >>> >>>Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>>learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >>> >>>:-O?? >>> >>>SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >>>simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>>Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>>The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>>The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >>> >>>very best regards >>> >>>Carsten >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Dec 15 12:20:45 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:20:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-11223@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Very nice indeed. It's what I figured to do. Glad to hear it is a working hypothesis. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 15, 2013 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I had the fellow who works for me buff one of the mbt windows. he runs a small body shop in our off season, so he is a pro at buffing. I gave him the most beat up window in the lot. He brought it back to like new condition. There are a couple of deep scratches that are not worth worrying about. With water on both sides of the glass the scratches disappear. I a very confident the original port windows will be like new when he is finished with them. How nice is that Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:46:44 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now. It is nice to have a change. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual. Everything spins freely. I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge. What do you mean by linear. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi. The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up. I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi. I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing. Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft. Rookie machinist and all. :-) Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: Carsten, Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with air in the dome. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. :-O SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. very best regards Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 14:20:30 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 08:20:30 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-11223@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them. I have 8 that are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. What is the official word on this. I note that the windows below were from an MBT rather than main windows. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Monday, 16 December 2013 6:21 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Very nice indeed. It's what I figured to do. Glad to hear it is a working hypothesis. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 15, 2013 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I had the fellow who works for me buff one of the mbt windows. he runs a small body shop in our off season, so he is a pro at buffing. I gave him the most beat up window in the lot. He brought it back to like new condition. There are a couple of deep scratches that are not worth worrying about. With water on both sides of the glass the scratches disappear. I a very confident the original port windows will be like new when he is finished with them. How nice is that Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:46:44 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now. It is nice to have a change. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual. Everything spins freely. I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge. What do you mean by linear. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi. The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up. I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi. I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing. Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft. Rookie machinist and all. :-) Hank On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: Carsten, Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. The manual operation of the AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with air in the dome. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility of diving with the valve open later on. Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. :-O SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch - just an simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. very best regards Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9175 (20131215) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 15 15:09:12 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1387138152.39490.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Carl Stanley has a 30 yr old dome on his sub.? The mbt window is also Plexi Glass G same as port windows.? The mbt window was so bad you could not see through it. Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 12:21:10 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them.? I have 8 that are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. What is the official word on this.? I note that the windows below were from an MBT rather than main windows.? ?Chs? Hugh ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Monday, 16 December 2013 6:21 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull ? Very nice indeed. It's what I figured to do. Glad to hear it is a working hypothesis. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 15, 2013 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I had the fellow who works for me buff one of the mbt windows.? he runs a small body shop in our off season, so he is a pro at buffing.? I gave him the most beat up window in the lot.? He brought it back to like new condition.? There are a couple of deep scratches that are not worth worrying about.? With water on both sides of the glass the scratches disappear.? I a very confident the original port windows will be like new when he is finished with them.? How nice is that Hank ? On Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:46:44 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now.? It is nice to have a change. Hank ? On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, >Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual.? Everything spins freely.? I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also.? >Hank >? >On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: >Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: >Hi Vance, >>I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. >>Hank >>? >>On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: >>How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >>Vance >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>>Hank >>>? >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>Vance, >>>Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >>>Hank? >>>? >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >>>Carsten, >>>Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>>As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>>head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>>I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>>The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>>than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >>>AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>>as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>>air in the dome.? >>>Alan >>>? >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >>> >>>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>>of diving with the valve open later on. >>> >>> >>>Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>>learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >>> >>>:-O?? >>> >>>SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >>>simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>>Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>>The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>>The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >>> >>>very best regards >>> >>>Carsten >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9175 (20131215) __________ ? The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ? http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9175 (20131215) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 15 15:41:55 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:41:55 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> As far as ABS is concerned I suspect ABS guidelines are the official word on it; 10 years or 10,000 cycles. GL has similar limits and adds "...regardless of the use in the submersible." Jon On 12/15/2013 2:20 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: > > A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows > re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them. I have 8 that > are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. > > What is the official word on this. I note that the windows below were > from an MBT rather than main windows. Chs Hugh > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 15 15:47:32 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon, I don't know about the ABS rules, but the acrylic bible has more to say about it.? You can extend the service ?life by decreasing the rating based on age and I believe location and method of storage.? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 1:41:55 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: As far as ABS is concerned I suspect ABS guidelines are the official word on it; 10 years or 10,000 cycles.? GL has similar limits and adds "...regardless of the use in the submersible." Jon On 12/15/2013 2:20 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them.? I have 8 that are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. What is the official word on this.? I note that the windows below were from an MBT rather than main windows.? ?Chs? Hugh ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 15 15:54:21 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:54:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> What is the acrylic bible? Are you talking about Stachiw's book? Jon On 12/15/2013 3:47 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Jon, > I don't know about the ABS rules, but the acrylic bible has more to > say about it. You can extend the service life by decreasing the > rating based on age and I believe location and method of storage. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 1:41:55 PM, Jon Wallace > wrote: > > As far as ABS is concerned I suspect ABS guidelines are the official > word on it; 10 years or 10,000 cycles. GL has similar limits and adds > "...regardless of the use in the submersible." > > Jon > > > On 12/15/2013 2:20 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: > A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows > re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them. I have 8 that > are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. > What is the official word on this. I note that the windows below were > from an MBT rather than main windows. Chs Hugh > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 15 16:01:53 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon, Yes, that is what I call the bible.? I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window? it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows.? I did not see that re- annealing helps. Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 1:54:50 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: What is the acrylic bible?? Are you talking about Stachiw's book? Jon On 12/15/2013 3:47 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, >I don't know about the ABS rules, but the acrylic bible has more to say about it.? You can extend the service ?life by decreasing the rating based on age and I believe location and method of storage.? >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 15, 2013 1:41:55 PM, Jon Wallace mailto:jonw at psubs.org wrote: > > >As far as ABS is concerned I suspect ABS guidelines are the official word on it; 10 years or 10,000 cycles.? GL has similar limits and adds "...regardless of the use in the submersible." > >Jon > > > >On 12/15/2013 2:20 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: > > >A question for the experts. Is it acceptable to have old windows re-polished and then possibly annealed to restore them.? I have 8 that are 25 years old and need to be replaced according to ABS etc. >What is the official word on this.? I note that the windows below were from an MBT rather than main windows.? ?Chs? Hugh >? >? > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 15 16:17:09 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:17:09 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted. For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing. Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out. The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Jon, > Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS > accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. > The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would > probably be cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- > annealing helps. > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 15 16:26:09 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon, Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature.? In my case the?ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing.? The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them.? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted.? For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing.? Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out.? The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, >Yes, that is what I call the bible.? I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window? it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows.? I did not see that re- annealing helps. >Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 15 16:28:07 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:28:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> Message-ID: <52AE1EE7.1060704@psubs.org> GL has a nice table that can be used for calculating window thickness and appears to be just slightly more conservative than ABS although I haven't checked all possible combinations. I may rewrite the flat viewport calculator based upon the GL table. See Annex C, page C-4. On 12/15/2013 4:17 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and > detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be > granted. For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new > windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure > the existing windows would pass the required testing. Scratches are a > no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out. > The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the > windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety > factor built in. > > > On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> Jon, >> Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS >> accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. >> The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would >> probably be cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- >> annealing helps. >> Hank >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 15 16:31:24 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:31:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52AE1FAC.9070702@psubs.org> Ok, missed that part. Now what you said about the scratches disappearing when wet on both sides makes sense. So yeah, you probably just need to go as far as you get good vis when the MBT's are flooded. On 12/15/2013 4:26 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Jon, > Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my > case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal > buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under > stress like a port so we can get tough with them. > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Dec 15 16:35:30 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:35:30 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy Message-ID: <201312151335347.SM02148@[66.162.33.185]> Rick,? Tried to contact you off line but it bounced back Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Land N Sea" Sent 12/8/2013 10:45:55 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyHank,I forgot if you mentioned it or not but had that port been annealed before testing?My main ports are 8? X 1 1/4?. It?s hard to say percentage wise how far I am along as each phase is different labor wise plus not have built one before, it?s hard to put a value to it but,,,,,,,,,,,hull seam and all frames and 4 view port rings in and fully welded, threw hulls for side motors, steering linkage, drop weights and VBT vent and flood are in, lower ring for conn in, upper ring for conn including 4 view port rings, threw hulls for MBT dump, snorkel and hatch dogs done and ready to weld to lower ring already on hull, hatch done and ready to install, both battery pods are completely done and I have decided to take them out and individually test them to 600? before attaching them to the hull as I have 3 places in each pod that have O rings where a leak could occur unlike the construction drawings, so I want the option of getting them in a lathe to correct any warpage? if need be as once they are on the hull no can do. Front dished end has large view port ring installed, rear dished end has the 2? flood nipple in all steel has been sand blasted and primed, I have the three Minn-Kotas but still need to modify them, VBT is done and ready to mount. I also have the depth sounder, U/W comms, gas chromatograph, scrubber and O2 cleaned first stage reg as well. It sounds like I have done a lot but then when I think of what is still left to do, it really doesn?t. I guess if it were easy everybody would be doing it.?Rick?From:hank pronkSent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 3:16 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy?Rick,The ports for Gamma are 1.5in thick and 8.5in dia.? What stage are you at with your build?HankOn Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:30:03 PM, Land N Sea wrote:What was the thickness and diameter of the one you tested? I'm? good on ports and am going to send all mine to Greg for annealing but it?s good to know you have them for the future if need be.?Rick?From:hank pronkSent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 1:19 PMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy?Hi Rick,I only tested one so far.? I tested a damaged window that you would never use and it was fine to 500psi.? I am sure they will all test fine.? I am also having them buffed first to restore them.? Do you need some window by chance.? I have a box full of new windows? that I have not even unpacked.HankOn Saturday, December 7, 2013 4:13:05 PM, Land N Sea wrote:Hank,Did you do the testing on your acrylic view ports yet and if so how did they do??Rick?From:Douglas SuhrSent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:53 PMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy?Hank, what are the specs on your new motor? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:23 PM, hank pronk wrote:Brian,I will be finished the assembly in a few days. I will post a picture when it is all together. I need the new motor before I can complete it.? HankOn Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:17:06 PM, brian wrote:It would be nice to see a schematic of this assembly or a picture since I'm not really grasping what is going on with the seal and bearing assembly. Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 12/5/2013 11:12:31 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyVance,Funny you mention the inner tube.? I did just that as an experiment on my red sphere sub.? I even painted the inner tube white so it would blend in better.? I took a big leap of faith this morning, I just finished machining the prop shaft bushing housing.? The housing has a bearing and seals now.? I drilled in two ports (1/8 pipe) to fill and drain the oil.? I like it much better and I have to drain the oil regularly in the second shaft housing anyways.? I also decided to buy a new motor instead of using the original.? I am driving to the USA tomorrow to pick it up.? That was my Christmas present. :-)??? I am very easy to shop for :-)Hank On Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47:14 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote:Which suggests a big inner tube if you want to convert a DW2000 to that definition. Otherwise, keep the door shut, or prepare to swim.Vance-----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & BuoyancyThe minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - Phil?From:Jon WallaceSent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy? I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".? Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.? They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.? Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required. On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote:?I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics.There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard definedin the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the classnotification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced conditionand the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be openfor surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L.?? ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30"whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight)In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is tobe included.? This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heelingangles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered.There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressurehull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open withoutwater coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees.There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluationof the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based.Alan???_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 15 17:53:47 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:53:47 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <52AE1FAC.9070702@psubs.org> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1FAC.9070702@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8737EA04-F0B0-4A07-A5F5-09452A942C3E@yahoo.com> There is a brief article in this link http://www.imca-int.com/media/71150/imcad047.pdf about deterioration & testing of view ports. It basically says the condition of them is difficult to determine & throw them out after 10 years. It refers you to the PVHO-2: 2003 for further details on determining the length of service. Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/12/2013, at 10:31 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Ok, missed that part. Now what you said about the scratches disappearing when wet on both sides makes sense. So yeah, you probably just need to go as far as you get good vis when the MBT's are flooded. > > > On 12/15/2013 4:26 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> Jon, >> Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them. >> Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 15 18:52:17 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:52:17 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <8737EA04-F0B0-4A07-A5F5-09452A942C3E@yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1FAC.9070702@psubs.org> <8737EA04-F0B0-4A07-A5F5-09452A942C3E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98E70947-7F94-481A-B764-8EC780D71D9A@yahoo.com> Article here by Jerry Stachiw for the 2004 UI convention that says you should be able to get twice the design life out of a view port if it hasn't been taken to extremes during It's life time. See page 6 http://www.hydroports.com/documents/New_Orleans_Meeting-Feb_2004.pdf Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/12/2013, at 11:53 AM, Alan wrote: > There is a brief article in this link > http://www.imca-int.com/media/71150/imcad047.pdf > about deterioration & testing of view ports. > It basically says the condition of them is difficult to determine > & throw them out after 10 years. > It refers you to the PVHO-2: 2003 for further details on determining > the length of service. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 16/12/2013, at 10:31 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >> >> Ok, missed that part. Now what you said about the scratches disappearing when wet on both sides makes sense. So yeah, you probably just need to go as far as you get good vis when the MBT's are flooded. >> >> >> On 12/15/2013 4:26 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> Jon, >>> Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them. >>> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 16 15:12:44 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:12:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Message-ID: <8D0C8B250D840F1-18C0-1678E@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Dec 16 15:41:07 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:41:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <8D0C8B250D840F1-18C0-1678E@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub.? The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which?I presume includes the OP valve.? Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well.? -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 16 15:57:48 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:57:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Dec 16 17:38:24 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:38:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> Thanks Jim, That was quite interesting. In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Wallace > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent > > > Location: Key Largo > > I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. > They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a > huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at > the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm > thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue > instead of red. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM > > > All, > > Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat > Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic > of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I > presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics > there to scroll through as well. -Jim > > http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Dec 16 19:03:45 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:03:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Beautiful images, that one is not the Christ of the Abyss in Key Largo but similar. That little sub is aimed squarely at the luxury yacht deck toy market! I'll take two please, one for the foredeck, another for the?well-deck! :) Thanks for those images Jim. Joe On Monday, December 16, 2013 5:40 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Jim, That was quite interesting. In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options.? I'd certainly take a ride if offered. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jon Wallace >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent > > >Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub.? The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which?I presume includes the OP valve.? Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well.? -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Dec 16 19:14:30 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:14:30 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9936AE8F-33ED-4479-97E2-BBFBE55A6436@yahoo.com> On their site are 3d virtual tours of their submersibles http://www.uboatworx.com/C-Explorer_2.dhtml?lan=ENG Some of them take a while to download & some I had a couple of goes at before I got there. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 1:03 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Beautiful images, that one is not the Christ of the Abyss in Key Largo but similar. > > That little sub is aimed squarely at the luxury yacht deck toy market! > > I'll take two please, one for the foredeck, another for the well-deck! :) > > Thanks for those images Jim. > > Joe > > > On Monday, December 16, 2013 5:40 PM, Alan wrote: > Thanks Jim, > That was quite interesting. > In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure > valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. > to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before > the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay > Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). > Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go > to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > >> $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jon Wallace >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent >> >> >> Location: Key Largo >> >> I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. >> They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a >> huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at >> the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm >> thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue >> instead of red. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM >> >> >> All, >> >> Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat >> Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic >> of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I >> presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics >> there to scroll through as well. -Jim >> >> http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 16 19:28:03 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:28:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C8D5FB7A8CCF-F84-186FD@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> The pics with C-Explorer 2 were taken on a dive in the Mediterranean. All the pics have captions below, but you mave have to scroll up and down to see them and get back to the "next" button at the top to see the next pic. The statue is Kristu l-Bahhar (Christ the Seafarer) off Malta. -Jim - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Beautiful images, that one is not the Christ of the Abyss in Key Largo but similar. That little sub is aimed squarely at the luxury yacht deck toy market! I'll take two please, one for the foredeck, another for the well-deck! :) Thanks for those images Jim. Joe On Monday, December 16, 2013 5:40 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Jim, That was quite interesting. In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Mon Dec 16 19:34:37 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:34:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <8D0C8D5FB7A8CCF-F84-186FD@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> References: <1387226467.30532.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8B89CBA1428-18C0-16CC6@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> <81CE90F3-4E68-475F-B09D-3DFCC2D5A08C@yahoo.com> <1387238625.69941.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0C8D5FB7A8CCF-F84-186FD@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52AF9C1D.1090108@psubs.org> Ohh man...I could have sworn it was Christ of the Abyss. Thanks for the clarification (you too Joe). On 12/16/2013 7:28 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > The pics with C-Explorer 2 were taken on a dive in the Mediterranean. > All the pics have captions below, but you mave have to scroll up and > down to see them and get back to the "next" button at the top to see > the next pic. The statue is Kristu l-Bahhar (Christ the Seafarer) off > Malta. > -Jim > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 16 20:13:29 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Message-ID: <8D0C8DC53A7C680-F84-189B6@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, I like the latch mechanism - looks very clean, adjustable rods, pivoting dogs. I don't see wiring or sensors either, but they could be on the dog just out of the pic at the top. The sub is GL classed. Makes me curious. The OP system seems to cover all the bases. Cutoff valve (red handle) in case the AOP fails open; manual OP valve (blue handle) if the AOP fails closed or to relieve underpressure; and the bend will catch any minor drips. Seawater will have to be backflushed. If you pulled vac before diving and the sub cooled while submerged, you could easily have underpressure when you surface. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Thanks Jim, That was quite interesting. In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Dec 16 20:26:51 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:26:51 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <8D0C8DC53A7C680-F84-189B6@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C8DC53A7C680-F84-189B6@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5F5B1C83-AB80-45E4-9C18-6F6BC432F394@yahoo.com> Jim, I had a look at the hatch in the 3d mode & no wiring, however on their computer there is a field entitled "pre-dive". I am wondering If they have to tick all the boxes before the valves to fill the ballast tanks are enabled, & that this is good enough for G.L. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 2:13 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Hi Alan, > > I like the latch mechanism - looks very clean, adjustable rods, pivoting dogs. I don't see wiring or sensors either, but they could be on the dog just out of the pic at the top. The sub is GL classed. Makes me curious. > > The OP system seems to cover all the bases. Cutoff valve (red handle) in case the AOP fails open; manual OP valve (blue handle) if the AOP fails closed or to relieve underpressure; and the bend will catch any minor drips. Seawater will have to be backflushed. If you pulled vac before diving and the sub cooled while submerged, you could easily have underpressure when you surface. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:39 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent > > Thanks Jim, > That was quite interesting. > In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure > valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. > to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before > the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay > Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). > Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go > to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > >> $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jon Wallace >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent >> >> >> Location: Key Largo >> >> I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. >> They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a >> huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at >> the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm >> thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue >> instead of red. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM >> >> >> All, >> >> Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat >> Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic >> of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I >> presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics >> there to scroll through as well. -Jim >> >> http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Dec 16 20:41:05 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:41:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <5F5B1C83-AB80-45E4-9C18-6F6BC432F394@yahoo.com> References: <8D0C8DC53A7C680-F84-189B6@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> <5F5B1C83-AB80-45E4-9C18-6F6BC432F394@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0C8E02F168612-F84-18B90@webmail-m296.sysops.aol.com> Alan, I have two domes so I'm going with indicator lights on an LED screen. Acrylic cylinders with hatches would be an alternative that would provide additional freeboard but also raise the CG. Still lots of decisions ahead. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Jim, I had a look at the hatch in the 3d mode & no wiring, however on their computer there is a field entitled "pre-dive". I am wondering If they have to tick all the boxes before the valves to fill the ballast tanks are enabled, & that this is good enough for G.L. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 2:13 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, I like the latch mechanism - looks very clean, adjustable rods, pivoting dogs. I don't see wiring or sensors either, but they could be on the dog just out of the pic at the top. The sub is GL classed. Makes me curious. The OP system seems to cover all the bases. Cutoff valve (red handle) in case the AOP fails open; manual OP valve (blue handle) if the AOP fails closed or to relieve underpressure; and the bend will catch any minor drips. Seawater will have to be backflushed. If you pulled vac before diving and the sub cooled while submerged, you could easily have underpressure when you surface. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Thanks Jim, That was quite interesting. In the hatch picture they have a stop valve with a bend, then an over pressure valve & a manual valve for a final pressure equalisation. This conforms with G.L. to that point but I can't see any mechanism that ensures full equalisation before the hatch is opened. Also I couldn't see any wiring or mechanism that would relay Information that the hatch was open (might be out of view). Re Jon's comments about interior colour ; I've heard that dark is the way to go to avoid ghosting on the inner surfaces of the acrylic. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/12/2013, at 9:57 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: $2 million per copy and a 5-foot acrylic sphere open up a whole bunch of options. I'd certainly take a ride if offered. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent Location: Key Largo I notice they had a much calmer sea then we did for Snoopy out on Pickle Reef. They have a cover over the dome to block the sun prior to diving and I noticed a huge difference in colors within the sub due to the blue ocean light. Look at the VHF handheld radio in front of the pilot before diving and submerged. I'm thinking maybe I'm going to want to change my electronic displays to blue instead of red. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 12/16/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 3:12 PM All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Dec 16 21:42:35 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:42:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent In-Reply-To: <8D0C8B250D840F1-18C0-1678E@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0C8B250D840F1-18C0-1678E@webmail-va020.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0C8E8C6C9C8D8-3FEC-19BE4@webmail-d220.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:13 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch and vent All, Gizmag had a good article on U-Boat Worx' C-Explorer 2 sub. The link below is to a pic of the hatch latch mechanism and some plumbing which I presume includes the OP valve. Lots of other pics there to scroll through as well. -Jim http://www.gizmag.com/u-boat-worx-test-drive/28878/pictures#9 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobtravis at comcast.net Tue Dec 17 01:10:21 2013 From: bobtravis at comcast.net (Bob Travis) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:10:21 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 Message-ID: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bob Sent from my iPhone From lanceind at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 05:31:42 2013 From: lanceind at gmail.com (Daniel Lance Lance) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:31:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob, That's a very good observation on your part. Your vbt won't live long with an inch of residual salt or freshwater left in it . A drain plug is a necessary revision to the Kittredge design. I would recommend welding in a stainless steel bushing and screwing in a pipe plug. Dan Lance On Dec 17, 2013 1:11 AM, "Bob Travis" wrote: > > I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be > about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked > through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in > the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's > that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water > out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the > idea of water remaining in it long term. > > Any advise would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Bob > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Dec 17 06:18:26 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:18:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob, I painted the inside of mine and after welding, poured extra paint in and sloshed it around. Not sure how succesful it is. i did price up making the tank from stainless. It was possible, but too expensive for me. Last time i came out of the water i poked a thin flexible tube down the inlet and sucked the dregs out with a fuel bulb. Again not sure how succesful that is. There was also a discussion a while ago about making the tank from one of those fibreglass gas cylinders. Cant remember the verdict on that. Someone also suggested filling the tank with argon while in storage. Ive decided to just consider the tank disposable and when its rusty, i'll replace it. More importantly i think is the mounting system. As per the plans is a real pain. I would suggest just simple flat brackets welded to the battery pods with corresponding flat brackets welded to the tank. Then the tank will simply lift on and off. Put slotted holes on one set of tabs and then you can slide the tank back and forth to get the vent pipework on and off. With the standard arrangement, the tank is awkward to get into place and almost impossible to get the pipework on if you've put the through hull pipe nipple as per the plans. Kind Regards James On 17 December 2013 10:31, Daniel Lance Lance wrote: > Bob, > That's a very good observation on your part. Your vbt won't live long with > an inch of residual salt or freshwater left in it . A drain plug is a > necessary revision to the Kittredge design. I would recommend welding in a > stainless steel bushing and screwing in a pipe plug. > Dan Lance > On Dec 17, 2013 1:11 AM, "Bob Travis" wrote: > >> >> I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be >> about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked >> through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in >> the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's >> that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water >> out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the >> idea of water remaining in it long term. >> >> Any advise would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Bob >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Dec 17 09:24:17 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:24:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <52B05E91.3090708@psubs.org> I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). The plug suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a lot of buoyancy. Jon On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: > I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. > > Any advise would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Bob > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Dec 17 09:58:52 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:58:52 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <52B05E91.3090708@psubs.org> References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> <52B05E91.3090708@psubs.org> Message-ID: This has given me an idea. Ive got loads of this fluid film stuff. Im tempted to pour some into the tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter. Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure its not going to clog it up. http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html On 17 December 2013 14:24, Jon Wallace wrote: > > I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of the K600 that is > obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). The plug > suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic > controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the > end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank > you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same > function. Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a > lot of buoyancy. > > Jon > > > > On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: > >> I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be >> about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked >> through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in >> the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's >> that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water >> out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the >> idea of water remaining in it long term. >> >> Any advise would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Bob >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pilotfishp at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 16:43:47 2013 From: pilotfishp at gmail.com (Antoine Delafargue) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 21:43:47 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project starting Message-ID: Hello all, You may recall a crazy long-range, human-powered submarine project. Well, I am proud to say it's getting started. Equally exciting, the familiar names who will help pack all the challenge in such a small boat : Paul Moorhouse has been working on the design, and Emile Van Essen will build the pressure hull and the dome. >From now on, I'll post the progress here and on the website.( www.pilotfishproject.com) regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobtravis at comcast.net Tue Dec 17 17:25:57 2013 From: bobtravis at comcast.net (Bob Travis) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:25:57 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> <52B05E91.3090708@psubs.org> Message-ID: Thanks for the input!! I think I'm going to try a stainless plug. I'll let you know how it goes. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:58 AM, James Frankland wrote: > > This has given me an idea. Ive got loads of this fluid film stuff. Im tempted to pour some into the tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter. Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure its not going to clog it up. > > http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html > >> On 17 December 2013 14:24, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >> I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). The plug suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a lot of buoyancy. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: >>> I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. >>> >>> Any advise would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Bob >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 18:11:01 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:11:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project starting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AADD699-DB10-4BAC-9D2B-955AD7D7F27A@yahoo.com> Hi Antoine, that's good news that you are on track with things. Emile is a great person to have on the project, skilled & innovative. I had a dive in his submarine this year & it is certainly well constructed & operates very smoothly. I also went to the Cherbourg Submarine museum. are they involved? Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/12/2013, at 10:43 AM, Antoine Delafargue wrote: > Hello all, > > You may recall a crazy long-range, human-powered submarine project. > Well, I am proud to say it's getting started. > > Equally exciting, the familiar names who will help pack all the challenge in such a small boat : Paul Moorhouse has been working on the design, and Emile Van Essen will build the pressure hull and the dome. > > From now on, I'll post the progress here and on the website.(www.pilotfishproject.com) > > regards, > Antoine > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Dec 17 20:36:01 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull In-Reply-To: <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-11223@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1386773627.49748.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1386796655.18459.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52A8DC1E.4050703@psubs.org> <1Vqrv7-2ksnLs0@fwd00.t-online.de> <1386801993.61421.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-11223@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387330561.652.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I changed my mind,? ;-)? I have mounted the hyd valve and hose cutter inside the front mbt.?originally ?I wanted the valve inside the sub because?the arm?was not jettesonable.? Now that it is, there is no need to have it inside.? Also I am saving a?LOT of money.?? The arm is all rebuilt with new rods in the hyd cylinders.? I am painting it tomorrow and will post pictures when it back together. Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:21:09 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Very nice indeed. It's what I figured to do. Glad to hear it is a working hypothesis. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 15, 2013 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull Vance, I had the fellow who works for me buff one of the mbt windows.? he runs a small body shop in our off season, so he is a pro at buffing.? I gave him the most beat up window in the lot.? He brought it back to like new condition.? There are a couple of deep scratches that are not worth worrying about.? With water on both sides of the glass the scratches disappear.? I a very confident the original port windows will be like new when he is finished with them.? How nice is that Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:46:44 PM, hank pronk wrote: Vance, I am sure it will be fine, it makes sense that the motor will draw down with an increase of pressure acting on the shaft. I am back to work on the manipulator now.? It is nice to have a change. Hank On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:46:23 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Well, maybe a break in period will help, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:36 PM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Vance, >Yes it is linear, it is a very smooth and gradual.? Everything spins freely.? I may have a bit to much grease on my thrust bearing also.? >Hank > > > >On Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:26:10 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > >Linear meaning a steady increase in demand in parallel to rising pressure. If you have a low rise with a sudden increase somewhere along the line then you may have a component not working as it should. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:02 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Vance, >>I did not have it in the sub so it was not hooked up to the amp gauge.? What do you mean by linear. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:12:40 AM, Vance Bradley wrote: >> >>How much did your amperage increase at depth? Was the load increase linear? >>Vance >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a 1/2hr run on my new drive with the shaft tube full of water and under 500psi.? The seal works perfectly and there is very little heat build up.? I was surprised how much the motor pulls down after 200psi.? I assume it is from the shaft pushing into the thrust bearing.? Also I am running the motor on 12v because it spins to fast on 24 with no load. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:27:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Vance, >>>Thank you, it only took me two tries to make the assembly and 5 tries to make the shaft.? Rookie machinist and all.? :-) >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:36:27 PM, Alan wrote: >>> >>>Carsten, >>>Your friends in Hamburg wouldn't be happy with the get wet solution. >>>As an after thought on my ambient, I put a AOP valve above my >>>head & through the dome. It works the opposite way round, so that if >>>I dive too quick & the hull doesn't equalise, I get water on my head. >>>The hull is equalised with divers regulators so better to get wet >>>than the regulator diaphragm rupturing. ?The manual operation of the >>>AOP let's me flood up to the top of the dome in an emergency exit, >>>as there may be too much force on the latches to open them with >>>air in the dome.? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 13/12/2013, at 7:33 AM, " " wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the Alan >>>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be >>>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility >>>of diving with the valve open later on. >>> >>> >>>Yes, and if you dive with a open valve you get wet >>>learn to close it and learn to read you "pre-dive" checklist. >>> >>>:-O?? >>> >>>SL not required an blocking mechanism on the hatch?- just an >>>simple spring loaded automatic overpressure valve. >>>Because of the automatic there is no need to block the hatch. >>>The air sound of the working valve is a clear signal not to open the hatch. >>>The function of the valve should be anyway mention in the written manual. >>> >>>very best regards >>> >>>Carsten >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Dec 17 22:40:04 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:40:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: References: <637AA1A1-F9E2-4EC5-A0DB-609A9C64A28B@comcast.net> <52B05E91.3090708@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D0C9B9F8E93A1F-1984-1FA18@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> Bob et al, What's the standard wall thickness on the K-boat VBT? Is it approved procedure to weld extra material at the [water valve/drain plug] site before threading it? If so, it seems it would be possible to have the insert flush with the interior wall. At least it wouldn't project where it could interfere with draining of the tank and would make it easier to flush. Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Bob Travis To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 17, 2013 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 Thanks for the input!! I think I'm going to try a stainless plug. I'll let you know how it goes. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:58 AM, James Frankland wrote: This has given me an idea. Ive got loads of this fluid film stuff. Im tempted to pour some into the tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter. Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure its not going to clog it up. http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html On 17 December 2013 14:24, Jon Wallace wrote: I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). The plug suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a lot of buoyancy. Jon On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bob Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 23:39:12 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:39:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <8D0C9B9F8E93A1F-1984-1FA18@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387341552.29068.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> STD pipe...but I don't recall the thickness off the top of my head. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12/17/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:40 PM Bob et al, ? What's the standard wall thickness on the K-boat VBT?? Is it approved procedure to weld extra material at the [water valve/drain plug] site before threading it?? If so, it seems it would be possible to have the insert flush with the interior wall.? At least it wouldn't project where it could interfere with draining of the tank and would make it easier to flush. ? Thanks, Jim ? ? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Travis To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 17, 2013 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 Thanks for the input!! ?I think I'm going to try a stainless plug. I'll let you know how it goes.? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:58 AM, James Frankland wrote: This has given me an idea.? Ive got loads of this fluid film stuff.? Im tempted to pour some into the tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter.? Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure its not going to clog it up. ? http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html On 17 December 2013 14:24, Jon Wallace wrote: I highly encourage you to modify it. ?The one piece of the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). ?The plug suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. ?I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. ?Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a lot of buoyancy. Jon On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. ?I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? ?All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? ?I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bob Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Dec 18 05:00:46 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:00:46 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <1387341552.29068.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0C9B9F8E93A1F-1984-1FA18@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> <1387341552.29068.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Its sch40 pipe, which for 10" pipe is 0.37", about 9mm. On 18 December 2013 04:39, Jon Wallace wrote: > STD pipe...but I don't recall the thickness off the top of my head. > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 12/17/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:40 PM > > > Bob et al, > > > > What's the standard wall thickness > on the K-boat VBT? Is it approved procedure to weld > extra material at the [water valve/drain plug] site before > threading it? If so, it seems it would be possible to > have the insert flush with the interior wall. At least > it wouldn't project where it could interfere with > draining of the tank and would make it easier to > flush. > > > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Travis > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 17, 2013 4:26 pm > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the input!! I think I'm going to > try a stainless plug. I'll let you know how it > goes. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:58 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > This has given me an idea. Ive got loads of this > fluid film stuff. Im tempted to pour some into the > tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter. > Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure > its not going to clog it up. > > > > > > > http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html > > > > > > > On 17 December 2013 > 14:24, Jon Wallace > wrote: > > > > > I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of > the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical > to the K-350). The plug suggested by Dan is a good > option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled > valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of > the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder > if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or > AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. > Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not > produce a lot of buoyancy. > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > > On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: > > > I'm > about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there > will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been > fully blown. I looked through the archives and > can't find any discussion about water remaining in the > tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the > other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any > way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can > anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the > idea of water remaining in it long term. > > > > > Any advise would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pilotfishp at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 06:45:15 2013 From: pilotfishp at gmail.com (Antoine Delafargue) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:45:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project starting In-Reply-To: <4AADD699-DB10-4BAC-9D2B-955AD7D7F27A@yahoo.com> References: <4AADD699-DB10-4BAC-9D2B-955AD7D7F27A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, sure, Emile will be a great asset, For Cherbourg, the discussion is ongoing. Should work out. regards Antoine On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alan wrote: > Hi Antoine, > that's good news that you are on track with things. > Emile is a great person to have on the project, skilled > & innovative. I had a dive in his submarine this year & it is certainly > well > constructed & operates very smoothly. > I also went to the Cherbourg Submarine museum. are they involved? > Regards Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 18/12/2013, at 10:43 AM, Antoine Delafargue > wrote: > > Hello all, > > You may recall a crazy long-range, human-powered submarine project. > Well, I am proud to say it's getting started. > > Equally exciting, the familiar names who will help pack all the challenge > in such a small boat : Paul Moorhouse has been working on the design, and > Emile Van Essen will build the pressure hull and the dome. > > From now on, I'll post the progress here and on the website.( > www.pilotfishproject.com) > > regards, > Antoine > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Dec 18 07:02:48 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:02:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: References: <8D0C9B9F8E93A1F-1984-1FA18@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> <1387341552.29068.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0CA003410A8A2-1984-209E8@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> Thanks, James. I had missed Dan's advice on welding in a stainless steel bushing. -Jim -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:01 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 Its sch40 pipe, which for 10" pipe is 0.37", about 9mm. On 18 December 2013 04:39, Jon Wallace wrote: STD pipe...but I don't recall the thickness off the top of my head. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12/17/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:40 PM Bob et al, What's the standard wall thickness on the K-boat VBT? Is it approved procedure to weld extra material at the [water valve/drain plug] site before threading it? If so, it seems it would be possible to have the insert flush with the interior wall. At least it wouldn't project where it could interfere with draining of the tank and would make it easier to flush. Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Bob Travis To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 17, 2013 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 Thanks for the input!! I think I'm going to try a stainless plug. I'll let you know how it goes. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:58 AM, James Frankland wrote: This has given me an idea. Ive got loads of this fluid film stuff. Im tempted to pour some into the tank to give it a bit of protection over the winter. Might have to experiment with it a bit first to make sure its not going to clog it up. http://www.fluid-film.com/products/properties_liquida.html On 17 December 2013 14:24, Jon Wallace wrote: I highly encourage you to modify it. The one piece of the K600 that is obviously not useable is the VBT (identical to the K-350). The plug suggested by Dan is a good option but with either an electric or hydraulic controlled valve you could modify the inflow/outflow from the middle of the end-cap to the bottom of the tank. I also wonder if instead of an FRP tank you could modify an AL-80 or AL-100 scuba tank to perform the same function. Unfortunately they are not large volume and would not produce a lot of buoyancy. Jon On 12/17/2013 1:10 AM, Bob Travis wrote: I'm about ready to assemble my VBT and have noticed that there will be about an inch of water left inside after it has been fully blown. I looked through the archives and can't find any discussion about water remaining in the tank. Is this a bad thing? All the photos of all the other K-350's that I've looked at don't have any way of draining the last bit of water out of the tank. Can anyone give me some advise here? I don't like the idea of water remaining in it long term. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bob Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Dec 18 10:30:11 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:30:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators.? I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings.? Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature.? In my case the?ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing.? The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them.? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted.? For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing.? Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out.? The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, >Yes, that is what I call the bible.? I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window? it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows.? I did not see that re- annealing helps. >Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 14:11:06 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:11:06 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, I don't know what the "rules are on them yet" I think their pressure rating is well below what they have been tested to by Emile (3000ft). The European Psubbers use 2 per penetration, 1 either side of the hull. It would depend on the configuration of the multi strand wire as to how it sealed up. Experiment or test? I put two wires through the same penetration by buying an item that fitted in to the Blue Globe Gland & potting the wires in this. It was basically a pipe with an outside lip to stop it extruding in through the BGCG & an inner narrowing at one end to stop the potting from extruding through. In hind-site an elbow may have been good to pot in to. Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/12/2013, at 4:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators. I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings. Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Jon, > Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted. For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing. Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out. The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. > > > On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> Jon, >> Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- annealing helps. >> Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Dec 18 22:48:07 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:48:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Penetrators In-Reply-To: <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B26C77.5010103@psubs.org> Don't know if this made it through the first time. See GL Section 11:D:8.1 and 11:D:8.2 Electrical pressure hull penetrations and underwater plug connections are to be type approved. A Blue Globe fitting wouldn't get approved without adequate testing. I don't see anything prohibiting multi-conductor cable however GL does state that "Electrical conductors within the penetrating device shall be of solid material" which I assume means you can't use stranded wire. Seems strange to me but might be due to creep of water between the conductor and insulation? On 12/18/2013 10:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical > penetrators. I understand some people use Blue Globe compression > fittings. Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 23:52:02 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT for K-350 In-Reply-To: <8D0CA003410A8A2-1984-209E8@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387428722.2134.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Late to the party, busy shooting kid vids.

I just modeled and analyzed the VBT last week, talk about timing. Several things struck me, one is that the internal volume is a nearly exact 1 cu ft, (the assembly weight approx 43 lbs) another being the funky placement of both the vent and flood penetrations, neither of which allow for full advantage to be taken of the internal volume. Both suggestions of a drain plug as well as repositioning of the penetrations being sound propositions.

Another thing that struck me is that the welded mounting is not conducive to removal and replacement, a bolt-on affair is highly preferable. And yet another revelation being that two of these mounted far enough apart in an elongated design could be possibly considered to make for a viable trim by moments system. However, I've not yet done calcs on the effectiveness of that.

Joe




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
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URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Dec 18 11:44:46 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Penetrators In-Reply-To: <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0C7D11F78B76C-1AC4-1122 3@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B1D0FE.90406@psubs.org> See GL Section 11:D:8.1 and 11:D:8.2 Electrical pressure hull penetrations and underwater plug connections are to be type approved. A Blue Globe fitting wouldn't get approved without adequate testing. I don't see anything prohibiting multi-conductor cable however GL does state that "Electrical conductors within the penetrating device shall be of solid material" which I assume means you can't use stranded wire. Seems strange to me but might be due to creep of water between the conductor and insulation? On 12/18/2013 10:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical > penetrators. I understand some people use Blue Globe compression > fittings. Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Dec 19 05:34:41 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:34:41 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Blue Globe seem to make all sorts of cable glands, including ones for multi cables. I did try and get some but the local supplier in the UK wasnt interested once i said i only wanted a few. The catalogues are huge, but i think there are some multi glands in the one called, "novelties". ! http://www.pflitsch.de/en/cable-glands-downloads/cat_view/46-kabelverschraubung/51-kataloge/120-gesamtkatalog-kabelverschraubungen--kapitel On 18 December 2013 19:11, Alan wrote: > Hi Hank, > I don't know what the "rules are on them yet" > I think their pressure rating is well below what they have > been tested to by Emile (3000ft). > The European Psubbers use 2 per penetration, 1 either side of the hull. > It would depend on the configuration of the multi strand wire as to how > it sealed up. Experiment or test? > I put two wires through the same penetration by buying an item that > fitted in to the Blue Globe Gland & potting the wires in this. > It was basically a pipe with an outside lip to stop it extruding in through > the BGCG & an inner narrowing at one end to stop the potting from > extruding through. > In hind-site an elbow may have been good to pot in to. > Regards Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 19/12/2013, at 4:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators. > I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings. Can a multi > wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk < > hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: > Jon, > Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my > case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal > buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress > like a port so we can get tough with them. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace > wrote: > > It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and > detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted. > For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would > probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows > would pass the required testing. Scratches are a no-no however so you > really need to get them completely buffed out. The heat produced in > buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to > PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. > > > On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Jon, > Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS > accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The > test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would probably be > cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- annealing helps. > Hank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 19 08:25:42 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 05:25:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387459542.43541.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks; guys. I was under the impression there was no potting needed.? I was thinking of making something from compression fittings with a very tightly packed wire group in a relatively hard shell.?? Hank On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:35:01 AM, James Frankland wrote: Blue Globe seem to make all sorts of cable glands, including ones for multi cables.? I did try and get some but the local supplier in the UK wasnt interested once i said i only wanted a few.? The catalogues are huge, but i think there are some multi glands in the one called, "novelties".? ! http://www.pflitsch.de/en/cable-glands-downloads/cat_view/46-kabelverschraubung/51-kataloge/120-gesamtkatalog-kabelverschraubungen--kapitel On 18 December 2013 19:11, Alan wrote: Hi Hank, >I don't know what the "rules are on them yet" >I think their pressure rating is well below what?they have? >been tested to by Emile (3000ft). >The European Psubbers use 2 per penetration,?1 either side of the hull. >It would depend on the configuration of the multi strand wire as to how >it sealed up. Experiment or test?? >I put two wires through the same penetration by buying an item that >fitted in to the Blue Globe Gland & potting the wires in this. >It was basically a pipe with an outside lip to stop it extruding in through >the BGCG & an inner narrowing at one end to stop the potting from >extruding through. >In hind-site an elbow may have been good to pot in to. >Regards Alan? > >Sent from my iPad > >On 19/12/2013, at 4:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators.? I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings.? Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Jon, >>Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature.? In my case the?ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing.? The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >> >>It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted.? For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing.? Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out.? The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. >> >> >> >>On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Jon, >>>Yes, that is what I call the bible.? I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window? it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows.? I did not see that re- annealing helps. >>>Hank >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 19 10:11:50 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:11:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cliff Redus Message-ID: <8D0CAE3C6B2F9B2-19A0-2799F@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Cliff, Can you contact me off site about some R-300 questions? Vance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Dec 19 10:56:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 19 Dec 2013 15:56 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1Vtfya-4KRJ7Q0@fwd14.t-online.de> Yes.. but with an open end on the outside it will not.. http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/IMG_4866.jpg Works at 32 bars = 320 meter about 1000 feet At greater dephts design we use them on both sides to reduce the cable tension force. vbr carsten "hank pronk" schrieb: Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators. I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings. Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them. Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted. For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing. Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out. The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- annealing helps. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Dec 19 10:59:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 19 Dec 2013 15:59 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1387459542.43541.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> <1387459542.43541.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1Vtg1x-3cVbgu0@fwd15.t-online.de> More than one cable in a blue globe will not work. The cabel outside needs to be round and minimum 5 mm outside up to 11 mm diameter. But can be a multiple wire cabel as long as the outside is a cylinder shape. vbr Carsten "hank pronk" schrieb: Thanks; guys. I was under the impression there was no potting needed. I was thinking of making something from compression fittings with a very tightly packed wire group in a relatively hard shell. Hank On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:35:01 AM, James Frankland wrote: Blue Globe seem to make all sorts of cable glands, including ones for multi cables. I did try and get some but the local supplier in the UK wasnt interested once i said i only wanted a few. The catalogues are huge, but i think there are some multi glands in the one called, "novelties". ! http://www.pflitsch.de/en/cable-glands-downloads/cat_view/46-kabelverschraubung/51-kataloge/120-gesamtkatalog-kabelverschraubungen--kapitel On 18 December 2013 19:11, Alan wrote: Hi Hank, I don't know what the "rules are on them yet" I think their pressure rating is well below what they have been tested to by Emile (3000ft). The European Psubbers use 2 per penetration, 1 either side of the hull. It would depend on the configuration of the multi strand wire as to how it sealed up. Experiment or test? I put two wires through the same penetration by buying an item that fitted in to the Blue Globe Gland & potting the wires in this. It was basically a pipe with an outside lip to stop it extruding in through the BGCG & an inner narrowing at one end to stop the potting from extruding through. In hind-site an elbow may have been good to pot in to. Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/12/2013, at 4:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators. I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings. Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature. In my case the ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing. The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them. Hank On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted. For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing. Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out. The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: Jon, Yes, that is what I call the bible. I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows. I did not see that re- annealing helps. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 19 11:33:43 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:33:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch Message-ID: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 19 11:43:22 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:43:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Windows In-Reply-To: <1Vtg1x-3cVbgu0@fwd15.t-online.de> References: <1386772586.45828.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VrB6O-1iv00e0@fwd29.t-online.de> <03FAADE9-11E6-423F-91BC-844956B23EED@yahoo.com> <1386880026.83292.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387044467.21893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <217F0ADE-9121-4ADC-8ECC-75A774E1A691@AOL.com> <1387051376.72860.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <74715B74-E70C-4B7F-85FC-C6AE09F98D53@AOL.com> <1387053407.56255.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <60586C68-D900-4552-8177-E5758A68B9EA@AOL.com> <1387057603.59861.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387127547.10305.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52ae010a.0466420a.415f.ffffae0a@mx.google.com> <52AE1413.6060804@psubs.org> <1387140452.2186.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE16FD.90804@psubs.org> <1387141313.5559.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52AE1C55.3070600@psubs.org> <1387142769.37838.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387380611.34619.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <07F3648F-8E28-4791-A4E5-CC8F74A8C4AE@yahoo.com> <1387459542.43541.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1Vtg1x-3cVbgu0@fwd15.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1387471402.40558.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' Carsten, Does the Blue Globe have a hard sealing ring or soft like an o-ring.? My plan is to use a multi wire with a very smooth and hard shell.? I will make my own fitting to match the wire size. Hank On Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:01:22 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de" wrote: E-Mail Software 6.0 More than one cable in a blue globe will not work. The cabel outside needs to be round and minimum 5 mm outside up to 11 mm diameter. But can be a multiple wire cabel as long as the outside is a cylinder shape. vbr Carsten "hank pronk" schrieb: Thanks; guys. >I was under the impression there was no potting needed.? I was thinking of making something from compression fittings with a very tightly packed wire group in a relatively hard shell.?? >Hank > > > >On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:35:01 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >Blue Globe seem to make all sorts of cable glands, including ones for multi cables.? I did try and get some but the local supplier in the UK wasnt interested once i said i only wanted a few.? The catalogues are huge, but i think there are some multi glands in the one called, "novelties".? ! > >http://www.pflitsch.de/en/cable-glands-downloads/cat_view/46-kabelverschraubung/51-kataloge/120-gesamtkatalog-kabelverschraubungen--kapitel > > >On 18 December 2013 19:11, Alan wrote: > >Hi Hank, >>I don't know what the "rules are on them yet" >>I think their pressure rating is well below what?they have? >>been tested to by Emile (3000ft). >>The European Psubbers use 2 per penetration,?1 either side of the hull. >>It would depend on the configuration of the multi strand wire as to how >>it sealed up. Experiment or test?? >>I put two wires through the same penetration by buying an item that >>fitted in to the Blue Globe Gland & potting the wires in this. >>It was basically a pipe with an outside lip to stop it extruding in through >>the BGCG & an inner narrowing at one end to stop the potting from >>extruding through. >>In hind-site an elbow may have been good to pot in to. >>Regards Alan? >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 19/12/2013, at 4:30 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>Does anyone know what the rules are concerning electrical penetrators.? I understand some people use Blue Globe compression fittings.? Can a multi wire cord be used with a Blue Globe fitting? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:26:09 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>>Agreed, I am concerned of coarse about the buffing temperature.? In my case the?ports are in quite good condition, and should need minimal buffing.? The mbt windows are in rough shape but they are not under stress like a port so we can get tough with them.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:17:09 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> >>>It looks like GL has similar wording, depending upon actual usage and detailed testing agreed to by GL a service life extension may be granted.? For the person desiring a certified vessel I agree new windows would probably be a cheaper route unless you were very sure the existing windows would pass the required testing.? Scratches are a no-no however so you really need to get them completely buffed out.? The heat produced in buffing may justify annealing however if the windows were manufactured to PVHO standards there's a lot of safety factor built in. >>> >>> >>> >>>On 12/15/2013 4:01 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>>>Yes, that is what I call the bible.? I just read on page 940 that ABS accepts the extrapolation method to determine remaining service life. The test is very extensive and for a flat disk window? it would probably be cheaper to buy new windows.? I did not see that re- annealing helps. >>>>Hank >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen Germany +49 (0) 172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Dec 19 12:19:03 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:19:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch In-Reply-To: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). http://www.ictineu.net/en/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 13:01:42 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:01:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch In-Reply-To: <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. So?my "idea man" brain?has a question for the shop wizards.? Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module?be reasonably built using?,.... 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation My thoughts are two?independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Couple of links for Ictineu 3.? Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). http://www.ictineu.net/en/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 14:06:00 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 08:06:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch In-Reply-To: <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C222B9C-8584-4544-A29F-D47D61B8A326@yahoo.com> Joe, have you seen Deep Sea Power & Lights battery. Good for about 10,000 meters. From memory they are AGM, so no worries about tilt angle. http://www2.deepsea.com/wp-content/uploads/spec-SeaBattery.pdf Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/12/2013, at 7:01 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. > > Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. > > So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. > > Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,.... > > 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps > 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case > 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation > > My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. > > Joe > > > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: > Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). > http://www.ictineu.net/en/ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vbra676539 > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. > Vance > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Dec 19 14:17:26 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:17:26 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch In-Reply-To: <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B34646.3070404@psubs.org> Perhaps there is a new generation of oil-compensated housings that make life easier, but all I've ever heard from people that have dealt with them in the past is that they are VERY messy and not worth it. On 12/19/2013 1:01 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between > that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed > before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. > > Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent > flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that > catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the > case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's > significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be > easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. > > So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. > > Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be > reasonably built using?,.... > > 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps > 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case > 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation > > My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the > centerline, possibly jettison-able. > > Joe > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Dec 19 15:20:59 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:20:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> Joe, In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about 12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that. As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,.... 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). http://www.ictineu.net/en/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 16:39:15 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:39:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Joe, I compensated some AGMs for my ambient. But that's a different story. In general AGMs need an internal pressure of 1-6 psi to reabsorb gas. So a stretchy thick clear diaphragm such as on the Deep Sea Power & Light battery box use can be pre pressurized, then & you just manually bleed off any excess gass build up over time through a valve in the diaphram. The batteries love pressure, so this simple system could go down miles. Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/12/2013, at 9:20 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > Joe, > > In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. > > You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). > > The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. > > As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. > > Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about 12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. > > That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that. > > As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. > > Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. > > So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. > > Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,.... > > 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps > 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case > 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation > > My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. > > Joe > > > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: > Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). > http://www.ictineu.net/en/ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vbra676539 > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. > Vance > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 16:48:12 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance, On my cabin cruiser, I ran lead acid because I did not like the cost of the higher end batteries. Of course gasoline fumes are more of a concern in a bilge than H1. Recently, I've been pricing the AGM's at West Marine and other places and not liking what I've seen, and this?seven years prior to my build so imagine then. It seems to me that the batteries for a PSUB are the single most expensive repeat consumable item, so I'm very much liking this method. The Busby text (pg. 325) says that 48% of the submersible fleet at that time used this method compared to 32% inside and 20% external pods. This not being my line of work, I have to figure there are sound reasons for this being the case, I'm a believer in paying attention to what industry does in whatever discipline. Looking at this over and over I?have been coming to realize?that the biggest advantages gained?for a homebuilt affair are in cost, size and weight at the expense of convenience.?Additional gains as you mentioned are lowering the CG with a concurrent gain in stability, jettison capability,?and a added streamlining benefit along centerline, a standard K-350 tracks very poorly when towed as evidenced by builders on this very?forum multiple times in the past. Add?to this configuration?a stabilizing fin ala Nautile, Shinkai, or even Delta, and a very?towable submersible with a?stable submerged?station keeping ability in local?conditions starts to emerge,. I'm liking it! Thanks for that very helpful post. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:27 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Joe, In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about ?12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that.? As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. So?my "idea man" brain?has a question for the shop wizards.? Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module?be reasonably built using?,.... 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation My thoughts are two?independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Couple of links for Ictineu 3.? Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). http://www.ictineu.net/en/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 17:04:14 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan, I've never bothered to price those Deep Sea units, but judging by the West Marine battery prices for standard use AGMs in a nice case can reach $800, I figure not to even bother. But, if we can copy what's being done safely and on the cheap, that's the way to go in my book. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 4:50 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, On my cabin cruiser, I ran lead acid because I did not like the cost of the higher end batteries. Of course gasoline fumes are more of a concern in a bilge than H1. Recently, I've been pricing the AGM's at West Marine and other places and not liking what I've seen, and this?seven years prior to my build so imagine then. It seems to me that the batteries for a PSUB are the single most expensive repeat consumable item, so I'm very much liking this method. The Busby text (pg. 325) says that 48% of the submersible fleet at that time used this method compared to 32% inside and 20% external pods. This not being my line of work, I have to figure there are sound reasons for this being the case, I'm a believer in paying attention to what industry does in whatever discipline. Looking at this over and over I?have been coming to realize?that the biggest advantages gained?for a homebuilt affair are in cost, size and weight at the expense of convenience.?Additional gains as you mentioned are lowering the CG with a concurrent gain in stability, jettison capability,?and a added streamlining benefit along centerline, a standard K-350 tracks very poorly when towed as evidenced by builders on this very?forum multiple times in the past. Add?to this configuration?a stabilizing fin ala Nautile, Shinkai, or even Delta, and a very?towable submersible with a?stable submerged?station keeping ability in local?conditions starts to emerge,. I'm liking it! Thanks for that very helpful post. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:27 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Joe, In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about ?12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that.? As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. So?my "idea man" brain?has a question for the shop wizards.? Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module?be reasonably built using?,.... 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation My thoughts are two?independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. Joe On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Couple of links for Ictineu 3.? Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). http://www.ictineu.net/en/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 17:08:22 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 11:08:22 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D939FEE-6B08-4A10-9F5B-1C97125DB77F@yahoo.com> Joe, in addition I should have mentioned that the AGMs have an over pressure valve on each cell for the purpose of keeping the internal pressure up. Normally you would prise off a plate on top giving access to these valves. In a lot of batteries they are just caps that you pull off & throw away. You top the battery up with unscented baby oil trying to get as much gas out as possible, before sealing in the box surrounded by baby oil. Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/12/2013, at 10:39 AM, Alan wrote: > Joe, > I compensated some AGMs for my ambient. > But that's a different story. > In general AGMs need an internal pressure of 1-6 psi to reabsorb gas. > So a stretchy thick clear diaphragm such as on the Deep Sea Power & > Light battery box use can be pre pressurized, then & you just manually bleed off > any excess gass build up over time through a valve in the diaphram. > The batteries love pressure, so this simple system could go down miles. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/12/2013, at 9:20 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > >> Joe, >> >> In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. >> >> You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). >> >> The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. >> >> As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. >> >> Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about 12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. >> >> That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that. >> >> As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. >> >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch >> >> I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. >> >> Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. >> >> So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. >> >> Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,.... >> >> 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps >> 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case >> 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation >> >> My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. >> >> Joe >> >> >> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: >> Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). >> http://www.ictineu.net/en/ >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vbra676539 >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch >> >> The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. >> Vance >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 17:16:50 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 11:16:50 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> Joe, I have seen people make the box by putting cardboard around the battery & fibre glassing over this. you need to have a cardboard or ply lip included to clamp the diaphragm to. Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/12/2013, at 11:04 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Alan, > > I've never bothered to price those Deep Sea units, but judging by the West Marine battery prices for standard use AGMs in a nice case can reach $800, I figure not to even bother. > > But, if we can copy what's being done safely and on the cheap, that's the way to go in my book. > > Joe > > > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 4:50 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Vance, > > On my cabin cruiser, I ran lead acid because I did not like the cost of the higher end batteries. Of course gasoline fumes are more of a concern in a bilge than H1. Recently, I've been pricing the AGM's at West Marine and other places and not liking what I've seen, and this seven years prior to my build so imagine then. It seems to me that the batteries for a PSUB are the single most expensive repeat consumable item, so I'm very much liking this method. > > The Busby text (pg. 325) says that 48% of the submersible fleet at that time used this method compared to 32% inside and 20% external pods. This not being my line of work, I have to figure there are sound reasons for this being the case, I'm a believer in paying attention to what industry does in whatever discipline. > > Looking at this over and over I have been coming to realize that the biggest advantages gained for a homebuilt affair are in cost, size and weight at the expense of convenience. Additional gains as you mentioned are lowering the CG with a concurrent gain in stability, jettison capability, and a added streamlining benefit along centerline, a standard K-350 tracks very poorly when towed as evidenced by builders on this very forum multiple times in the past. Add to this configuration a stabilizing fin ala Nautile, Shinkai, or even Delta, and a very towable submersible with a stable submerged station keeping ability in local conditions starts to emerge,. I'm liking it! > > Thanks for that very helpful post. > > Joe > > > > > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:27 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > Joe, > > In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. > > You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). > > The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. > > As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. > > Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about 12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. > > That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that. > > As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. > > Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. > > So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop wizards. > > Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,.... > > 1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps > 2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case > 3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation > > My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. > > Joe > > > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: > Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). > http://www.ictineu.net/en/ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vbra676539 > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. > Vance > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Dec 19 17:30:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:30:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387492231.3449.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I have been looking at golf cart agm batteries on e bay and they are not much more then lead acid.? 2,000 dollars will put 8 batteries in your sub.? I figure the less things you need to build the better off you are.?? Emile has his inside and it is very tidy, also Gamma has them inside but much more work the way Gamma has them.? Inside batteries is a lot less effort with added benefits like stream lining. Hank On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:17:16 PM, Alan wrote: Joe, I have seen people make the box by putting cardboard around the battery & fibre glassing over this. you need to have a cardboard or ply lip included to clamp the diaphragm to. Alan? Sent from my iPad On 20/12/2013, at 11:04 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan, > > >I've never bothered to price those Deep Sea units, but judging by the West Marine battery prices for standard use AGMs in a nice case can reach $800, I figure not to even bother. > > >But, if we can copy what's being done safely and on the cheap, that's the way to go in my book. > > >Joe > > > >On Thursday, December 19, 2013 4:50 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Vance, > > >On my cabin cruiser, I ran lead acid because I did not like the cost of the higher end batteries. Of course gasoline fumes are more of a concern in a bilge than H1. Recently, I've been pricing the AGM's at West Marine and other places and not liking what I've seen, and this?seven years prior to my build so imagine then. It seems to me that the batteries for a PSUB are the single most expensive repeat consumable item, so I'm very much liking this method. > > >The Busby text (pg. 325) says that 48% of the submersible fleet at that time used this method compared to 32% inside and 20% external pods. This not being my line of work, I have to figure there are sound reasons for this being the case, I'm a believer in paying attention to what industry does in whatever discipline. > > >Looking at this over and over I?have been coming to realize?that the biggest advantages gained?for a homebuilt affair are in cost, size and weight at the expense of convenience.?Additional gains as you mentioned are lowering the CG with a concurrent gain in stability, jettison capability,?and a added streamlining benefit along centerline, a standard K-350 tracks very poorly when towed as evidenced by builders on this very?forum multiple times in the past. Add?to this configuration?a stabilizing fin ala Nautile, Shinkai, or even Delta, and a very?towable submersible with a?stable submerged?station keeping ability in local?conditions starts to emerge,. I'm liking it! > > >Thanks for that very helpful post. > > >Joe > > > > > > > >On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:27 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Joe, > > In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells. > > >You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen). > > >The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard. > > >As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it. > > >Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about ?12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do. > > >That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that.? > > >As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > >I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course. > > >Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder. > > >So?my "idea man" brain?has a question for the shop wizards.? > > >Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module?be reasonably built using?,.... > > >1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps >2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case >3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation > > >My thoughts are two?independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able. > > >Joe > > > >On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: > > >Couple of links for Ictineu 3.? Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.). >http://www.ictineu.net/en/ >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI > > >-----Original Message----- >From: vbra676539 >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch > > >The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice. >Vance >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Dec 19 22:54:31 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:54:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <1387492231.3449.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387511671.29596.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

I will look at those batteries, anything compact deserves attention. I also like Gamma's box keel, but too much to take on as you say.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From k6fee at yahoo.com Fri Dec 20 00:32:14 2013 From: k6fee at yahoo.com (k6fee at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:32:14 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes Message-ID: West marine charges 2-3 times the going rate for their batteries. I never buy batteries there. If your after inexpensive flooded batteries head to your loval golf course and see if you can get some used cart batteries. Most are removed from service long before the end of their useful life. I got 8 for $20 each 5 yrs ago for my boat and they are still going strong. Just bring a carbon pile load tester to be sure you get the good ones. Keith Joe Perkel wrote: >Hank,

I will look at those batteries, anything compact deserves attention. I also like Gamma's box keel, but too much to take on as you say.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
>_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Dec 20 06:58:24 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 06:58:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <392B3A91-6303-4CCC-8B9C-5A9DC0237E56@yahoo.com> Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought to do that. That is quite the helpful tip. Thanks Keith! Joe iPhone On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:32 AM, k6fee at yahoo.com wrote: > West marine charges 2-3 times the going rate for their batteries. I never buy batteries there. If your after inexpensive flooded batteries head to your loval golf course and see if you can get some used cart batteries. Most are removed from service long before the end of their useful life. I got 8 for $20 each 5 yrs ago for my boat and they are still going strong. Just bring a carbon pile load tester to be sure you get the good ones. > > Keith > > Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Hank,

I will look at those batteries, anything compact deserves attention. I also like Gamma's box keel, but too much to take on as you say.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
>> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From k6fee at yahoo.com Fri Dec 20 10:39:55 2013 From: k6fee at yahoo.com (k6fee at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 07:39:55 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes Message-ID: Joe, Glad I can help. Be sure to go to the shop where they do the cart maintanence and talk to the guy in charge, not the front desk. Find out what their battery supplier is giving them for these "core" batteries and offer a few bucks more. Lead is a valuable commodity in the battery world. With cart batteries selling for $100+ dollars new, even at $40 each, it's a bargan. It really steams me that any time you mention RV or marine the price tripples or more. Seems everyone thinks just because you own a boat your rich! As everyone here knows, that's far from the truth. Keith Joe Perkel wrote: >Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought to do that. > >That is quite the helpful tip. > >Thanks Keith! > >Joe > >iPhone > >On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:32 AM, k6fee at yahoo.com wrote: > >> West marine charges 2-3 times the going rate for their batteries. I never buy batteries there. If your after inexpensive flooded batteries head to your loval golf course and see if you can get some used cart batteries. Most are removed from service long before the end of their useful life. I got 8 for $20 each 5 yrs ago for my boat and they are still going strong. Just bring a carbon pile load tester to be sure you get the good ones. >> >> Keith >> >> Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> Hank,

I will look at those batteries, anything compact deserves attention. I also like Gamma's box keel, but too much to take on as you say.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 08:42:42 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 05:42:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods Message-ID: <1387633362.53753.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've noticed that K350-006 Battery Pod & Tray, show the main electrical thru hull going to apparently nowhere. I've also noticed Dan H, Scott, and other K-350's with what appears to be a third vent tube just forward of the aft one of two shown on the drawings. I'm assuming then?that this is a relocation of the thru hull fitting and if so is it fabricated the same as the other two vent tubes, essentially discarding K350-043? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Sat Dec 21 09:53:08 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 09:53:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery Pods For Sale Message-ID: All, as I focus on my K250 rebuild project I have decided to put the PC-1402 battery pod(s) I have on the site as "for sale by owner". I do not necessarily need to sell as a pair as a single pod use might be a better application for a psub project. Anyway I just wanted to let everyone know they are there and maybe they could help advance someone's project. Happy Holidays! Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sat Dec 21 11:30:07 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:30:07 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods Message-ID: One is positive 12 volt, one is positive 36 volt, and one is a battery vent. They are the same on both pods. This gives me the ability to select battery pods. I am currently grounding through the hull and from the advice of Vance am adding a sacraficial anode. Not sure if all my methods are best, but that is how I did it. Electrical is one of my weaker strengths in the sub building process. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:I've noticed that K350-006 Battery Pod & Tray, show the main electrical thru hull going to apparently nowhere. I've also noticed Dan H, Scott, and other K-350's with what appears to be a third vent tube just forward of the aft one of two shown on the drawings. I'm assuming then?that this is a relocation of the thru hull fitting and if so is it fabricated the same as the other two vent tubes, essentially discarding K350-043? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Sat Dec 21 13:27:59 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 13:27:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods References: <1387633362.53753.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004001cefe7a$60927800$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Joe, On my sub, the forward and aft through hulls from the pod to the hull are the vent pipes shown on the drawing. The third round piece is actually a solid chunk of steel I drilled four separate holes through. Each hole accommodates a brass threaded rod that is a conductor. Each conductor was held in the center of it's hole and the space around it was filled solid with epoxy. I didn't want any pod gasses seeping into the hull. And if I ever blew a pod cap off, each conductor is water tight. The only problem I can imagine is, if I had a complete melt down and the rods got hot enough to melt or burn the epoxy, but if that happened I'd probably have bigger problems to deal with anyway. Rethinking...... I think I have six conductors. I may have put in an extra for a 24 volt tap on the 36 volt system. I never used it though and one small conductor for water detection in the battery pod. Dan H, ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 8:42 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods I've noticed that K350-006 Battery Pod & Tray, show the main electrical thru hull going to apparently nowhere. I've also noticed Dan H, Scott, and other K-350's with what appears to be a third vent tube just forward of the aft one of two shown on the drawings. I'm assuming then that this is a relocation of the thru hull fitting and if so is it fabricated the same as the other two vent tubes, essentially discarding K350-043? Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 14:42:05 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:42:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods In-Reply-To: <004001cefe7a$60927800$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1387633362.53753.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004001cefe7a$60927800$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1387654925.64465.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dan, That's pretty sound rationale for what you did, I think I'll follow?what you did?for the purposes of my digital but accurate reconstruction. I'm noticing some detail missing here and there in the drawings, and?I do need to understand everything well before I can reasonably hope to modify anything. Thanks Dan! Joe On Saturday, December 21, 2013 1:33 PM, Dan H. wrote: Joe, ? On my sub, the forward and aft through hulls from the pod to the hull are the vent pipes shown on the drawing.? The?third round piece?is actually a solid chunk of steel I drilled four separate holes through.? Each hole accommodates a brass threaded rod that is a conductor.? Each conductor was held in the center of it's hole and the space around it was filled solid with epoxy.? I didn't want any pod gasses seeping into the hull.? And if I ever blew a pod cap off, each conductor is water tight.? The only problem I can imagine is, if I had a complete melt down and the rods got hot enough to melt or burn the epoxy, but if that happened I'd probably have bigger problems to deal with anyway.? ? Rethinking...... I think I have six?conductors.?? I may have put in an extra for a 24 volt tap on the 36 volt system.? I never used it though and one small conductor for water detection in the battery pod. ? Dan H, ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 8:42 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods > > >I've noticed that K350-006 Battery Pod & Tray, show the main electrical thru hull going to apparently nowhere. I've also noticed Dan H, Scott, and other K-350's with what appears to be a third vent tube just forward of the aft one of two shown on the drawings. > > >I'm assuming then?that this is a relocation of the thru hull fitting and if so is it fabricated the same as the other two vent tubes, essentially discarding K350-043? > > >Joe > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 14:42:22 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:42:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery pods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1387654942.67310.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott, Your reply reminds me to keep in mind some form of emergency back-up power for household current demands for things like comm and life support. Very likely 12v I would think. Thanks! Joe On Saturday, December 21, 2013 11:32 AM, swaters wrote: One is positive 12 volt, one is positive 36 volt, and one is a battery vent. They are the same on both pods. This gives me the ability to select battery pods. I am currently grounding through the hull and from the advice of Vance am adding a sacraficial anode. Not sure if all my methods are best, but that is how I did it. Electrical is one of my weaker strengths in the sub building process. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: I've noticed that K350-006 Battery Pod & Tray, show the main electrical thru hull going to apparently nowhere. I've also noticed Dan H, Scott, and other K-350's with what appears to be a third vent tube just forward of the aft one of two shown on the drawings. I'm assuming then?that this is a relocation of the thru hull fitting and if so is it fabricated the same as the other two vent tubes, essentially discarding K350-043? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfreihof at aol.com Sat Dec 21 18:22:44 2013 From: sfreihof at aol.com (Stanley Freihofer) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 18:22:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> Years ago, the R/V Calypso pulled into Miami. Jacques Cousteau and Albert Falco were not on board because they were attending the funeral of Philippe Cousteau in Portugal. I was able to go aboard and take some photos, including Cousteau's submersible, the Soucoup. Two of the covers had been removed, so I was able to get photos of their battery box, and their hydraulic propulsion pump. I'm not sure what everything is, but it may benefit the discussion here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SoucoupBattery.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 164431 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 20:08:03 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:08:03 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2890B6E5-2DEF-48DC-8AD4-88CB65139BA9@yahoo.com> Thanks Stanley, It looks like an oil compensated system with an over pressure valve in the middle of the diaphragm. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/12/2013, at 12:22 PM, Stanley Freihofer wrote: > Years ago, the R/V Calypso pulled into Miami. Jacques Cousteau and Albert Falco were not on board because they were attending the funeral of Philippe Cousteau in Portugal. I was able to go aboard and take some photos, including Cousteau's submersible, the Soucoup. Two of the covers had been removed, so I was able to get photos of their battery box, and their hydraulic propulsion pump. > > I'm not sure what everything is, but it may benefit the discussion here. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersiblesalve sure -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 21 21:12:45 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:12:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0CCD26FA6E4FA-132C-3433D@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> Look at the box top--a slight bubble shape of acrylic with the vent valve right in the center--the same as used on the JSLs on a different scale. Thanks for sharing that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Freihofer To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 21, 2013 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes Years ago, the R/V Calypso pulled into Miami. Jacques Cousteau and Albert Falco were not on board because they were attending the funeral of Philippe Cousteau in Portugal. I was able to go aboard and take some photos, including Cousteau's submersible, the Soucoup. Two of the covers had been removed, so I was able to get photos of their battery box, and their hydraulic propulsion pump. I'm not sure what everything is, but it may benefit the discussion here. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 22:08:09 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CCD26FA6E4FA-132C-3433D@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1387681689.18671.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Excellent, thank you that's very helpful.

I remember seeing Calypso in dry dock at Merrill Stevens while crossing the 12th ST bridge and recognized her immediately, I would guess that's where you boarded her Stanley.

That seems like yesterday, but I forget even the ball park year.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 22:21:19 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:21:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <8D0CCD26FA6E4FA-132C-3433D@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CCD26FA6E4FA-132C-3433D@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5C1F1451-9420-49A6-BA60-A4D67C19A3C6@yahoo.com> OK, so it's an acrylic bubble not a diaphragm. How do they compensate that? Is there a hose in to it from a bladder? Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/12/2013, at 3:12 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > Look at the box top--a slight bubble shape of acrylic with the vent valve right in the center--the same as used on the JSLs on a different scale. Thanks for sharing that. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Freihofer > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Sat, Dec 21, 2013 6:23 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes > > Years ago, the R/V Calypso pulled into Miami. Jacques Cousteau and Albert Falco were not on board because they were attending the funeral of Philippe Cousteau in Portugal. I was able to go aboard and take some photos, including Cousteau's submersible, the Soucoup. Two of the covers had been removed, so I was able to get photos of their battery box, and their hydraulic propulsion pump. > > I'm not sure what everything is, but it may benefit the discussion here. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sat Dec 21 22:34:24 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 22:34:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? Message-ID: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> I will be displaying depth in feet. Is there any practical reason to also display pressure? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems superfluous. Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure indicator, and why? From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Dec 21 22:34:36 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 22:34:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes In-Reply-To: <5C1F1451-9420-49A6-BA60-A4D67C19A3C6@yahoo.com> References: <8D0CAEF372F2A19-23F4-2845F@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CAF58C4722CD-1690-27A51@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <1387476102.59201.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0CB0EF6F74D7A-F4C-2A630@webmail-d177.sysops.aol.com> <1387489692.93905.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387490654.31674.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <70DCF14A-640B-46B1-A10B-EB028CA19033@yahoo.com> <8D0CCBAAF5E9835-1690-3361D@webmail-m214.sysops.aol.com> <8D0CCD26FA6E4FA-132C-3433D@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> <5C1F1451-9420-49A6-BA60-A4D67C19A3C6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0CCDDDE85ADD8-132C-34770@webmail-d238.sysops.aol.com> I expect that is the case. Bladders are easy and, as I said, the acrylic lets you keep an eye directly on the batteries. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 21, 2013 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes OK, so it's an acrylic bubble not a diaphragm. How do they compensate that? Is there a hose in to it from a bladder? Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/12/2013, at 3:12 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Look at the box top--a slight bubble shape of acrylic with the vent valve right in the center--the same as used on the JSLs on a different scale. Thanks for sharing that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Freihofer To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Dec 21, 2013 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Battery boxes Years ago, the R/V Calypso pulled into Miami. Jacques Cousteau and Albert Falco were not on board because they were attending the funeral of Philippe Cousteau in Portugal. I was able to go aboard and take some photos, including Cousteau's submersible, the Soucoup. Two of the covers had been removed, so I was able to get photos of their battery box, and their hydraulic propulsion pump. I'm not sure what everything is, but it may benefit the discussion here. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 00:45:20 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:45:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jon,

As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables.

This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance.

Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 11:25:26 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 08:25:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? Hank? On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jon, As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure indicator, and why? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 13:45:18 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 07:45:18 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> Hank, so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, just a standard tube threaded on the outside? Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi. I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks. That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane. I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out. Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod. More testing :-) > Hank > > > On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Jon, > > As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. > > This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. > > Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Jon Wallace ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? > Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM > > > I will be displaying depth in feet. Is there any practical reason to > also display pressure? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems > superfluous. Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure > indicator, and why? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 13:49:29 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 10:49:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: Hank, so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, just a standard tube threaded on the outside? Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >Hank? > > > >On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Jon, > >As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. > >This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. > >Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. > >Joe > > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Jon Wallace ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM > > > >I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >indicator, and why? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 14:16:38 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:16:38 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Hi Alan, > There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good. I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire. If I use threaded rod it works perfect. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > Hank, > so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, > just a standard tube threaded on the outside? > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >> I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi. I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks. That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane. I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out. Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod. More testing :-) >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> Jon, >> >> As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >> This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >> Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> From: Jon Wallace ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >> Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> I will be displaying depth in feet. Is there any practical reason to >> also display pressure? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >> superfluous. Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >> indicator, and why? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 15:33:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 12:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > >Hank, >so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Jon, >> >>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Jon Wallace ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> >>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>indicator, and why? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 16:48:55 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:48:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > >Hank, >so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Jon, >> >>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Jon Wallace ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> >>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>indicator, and why? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 17:02:28 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. Hank? On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > >Hank, >so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Jon, >> >>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Jon Wallace ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> >>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>indicator, and why? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 17:21:54 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387750914.22824.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I couldn't resist so I just tested a fitting I removed from my little sub.? The fitting failed at 2,000psi and it was the same, just a pin hole size leak.? The taper does not matter because I tested it in reverse against the direction of the taper.? A failure would not be catastrophic as long as you could hear it starting to fail.? The leak did not get worse when I sopped the compressor. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:02:28 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. Hank? On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > >Hank, >so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Jon, >> >>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Jon Wallace ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> >>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>indicator, and why? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 17:22:02 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387750922.11035.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, Are you testing beyond your pre-determined safety factor? Off the top of my head 3K psi would be north of 200 atm, somewhere around 6K depth. Not having done any of this myself, I'm wondering if its more useful bringing any given?component to?a predetermined safety factor of whatever (1.5 to 3) etc., then hold it there for awhile. Destruction confirms known mechanical properties, we have to figure everything has a breaking point, so I wonder if testing to a point somewhere south of destruction is of more use? What do you think? Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. Hank? On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: I follow, you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting compound around the wires under pressure Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: > >Hank, >so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Jon, >> >>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >> >>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >> >>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Jon Wallace ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >> >> >> >>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>indicator, and why? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 17:29:24 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:29:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank. On this subject. I had some wicking of salt water up 2 foot of wire on the inside of my sub. It stopped at the through hull. Obviously the potting of the bare wires in the through hull did a good job holting this. I am wondering if this wicking occurs on external wires where the cable & insulation go in to the potting mix & at the point where a section of wire is stripped. In other words, can the water pressure squeeze the external wire cladding & get between it & the potting mix, then at the point where the wire is stripped, turn backward & run up the inside of the wire sheathing? Any experience of this? On my first ever potting attempt, I didn't strip back a section of the wire & just ran it through a block of epoxy. It leaked compensating fluid just with the pressure of gravity. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 11:02 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material. I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first. There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured. I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old st material has frozen one to many times. I think I will stick to tried and true method though. That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer. I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails. That is the limit of my compressor. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Hank, > > What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential warning signs ahead of time. > > Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. > > Joe > > > > > > > On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Alan, > the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread. As a safety, I have a washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: > I follow, > you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from > the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. > If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. > I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward > taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the > potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting > compound around the wires under pressure > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Hi Alan, >> There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good. I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire. If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >> Hank >> >> >> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: >> Hank, >> so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >> just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>> I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi. I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks. That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane. I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out. Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod. More testing :-) >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> Jon, >>> >>> As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >>> >>> This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >>> >>> Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>> Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >>> >>> >>> I will be displaying depth in feet. Is there any practical reason to >>> also display pressure? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>> superfluous. Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>> indicator, and why? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 17:46:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I would think several prototype parts should be destroyed to determine the average failure point.? Then test the part going into service to the same as other parts 1.5:1 ?? Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:31:43 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Hank. On this subject. I had some wicking of salt water up 2 foot of wire on the inside of my sub. It stopped at the through hull. Obviously the potting of the bare wires in the through hull did a good job holting this. I am wondering if this wicking occurs on external wires where the cable ?& insulation go in to the potting mix & at the point where a section of? wire is stripped. ?In other words, can the water pressure squeeze the external wire cladding & get between it & the potting mix, then at the point where the wire is stripped, turn backward & run up the inside of the wire sheathing? Any experience of this? On my first ever potting attempt, I didn't strip back a section of the wire &? just ran it?through a block of epoxy. It leaked compensating fluid just with the pressure of gravity. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 11:02 AM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old st material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. >Hank? > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, > > >What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. > > >Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Alan, >the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: > >I follow, >you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from >the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. >If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. >I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward >taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the >potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting >compound around the wires under pressure >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Alan, >>There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: >> >>Hank, >>so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >>just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >>Alan >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>> >>>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >>> >>>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >>> >>>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>>indicator, and why? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 17:58:02 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387753082.41959.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, I suppose that seems reasonable enough. You certainly would be sure of what you have, and in the end that's what counts eh? Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:48 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, I would think several prototype parts should be destroyed to determine the average failure point.? Then test the part going into service to the same as other parts 1.5:1 ?? Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:31:43 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Hank. On this subject. I had some wicking of salt water up 2 foot of wire on the inside of my sub. It stopped at the through hull. Obviously the potting of the bare wires in the through hull did a good job holting this. I am wondering if this wicking occurs on external wires where the cable ?& insulation go in to the potting mix & at the point where a section of? wire is stripped. ?In other words, can the water pressure squeeze the external wire cladding & get between it & the potting mix, then at the point where the wire is stripped, turn backward & run up the inside of the wire sheathing? Any experience of this? On my first ever potting attempt, I didn't strip back a section of the wire &? just ran it?through a block of epoxy. It leaked compensating fluid just with the pressure of gravity. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 11:02 AM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old st material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. >Hank? > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, > > >What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. > > >Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Alan, >the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: > >I follow, >you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from >the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. >If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. >I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward >taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the >potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting >compound around the wires under pressure >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Alan, >>There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: >> >>Hank, >>so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >>just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >>Alan >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>> >>>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >>> >>>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >>> >>>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>>indicator, and why? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 18:02:08 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:02:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Yes I have had experience with water travelling long distances between the wire and the shielding.? You can tell when this is happening when the wire turns black.? I had water travel 350 feet, but that was over a years time.? We left the rov submerged all the time (60ft).? We did that to prevent vandalism when we were away from the operation.? Also we had items on the rov that would deteriorate when exposed to air.? Hank? On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:46:31 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, I would think several prototype parts should be destroyed to determine the average failure point.? Then test the part going into service to the same as other parts 1.5:1 ?? Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:31:43 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Hank. On this subject. I had some wicking of salt water up 2 foot of wire on the inside of my sub. It stopped at the through hull. Obviously the potting of the bare wires in the through hull did a good job holting this. I am wondering if this wicking occurs on external wires where the cable ?& insulation go in to the potting mix & at the point where a section of? wire is stripped. ?In other words, can the water pressure squeeze the external wire cladding & get between it & the potting mix, then at the point where the wire is stripped, turn backward & run up the inside of the wire sheathing? Any experience of this? On my first ever potting attempt, I didn't strip back a section of the wire &? just ran it?through a block of epoxy. It leaked compensating fluid just with the pressure of gravity. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 11:02 AM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old st material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. >Hank? > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, > > >What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. > > >Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Alan, >the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: > >I follow, >you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from >the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. >If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. >I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward >taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the >potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting >compound around the wires under pressure >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Alan, >>There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: >> >>Hank, >>so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >>just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >>Alan >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>> >>>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >>> >>>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >>> >>>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>>indicator, and why? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 18:15:45 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:15:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? In-Reply-To: <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387754145.6508.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I will do a series of tests, different size rods etc.? I will find out what works the best.? I just have to wait for the new polyurethane to arrive. Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:02:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, Yes I have had experience with water travelling long distances between the wire and the shielding.? You can tell when this is happening when the wire turns black.? I had water travel 350 feet, but that was over a years time.? We left the rov submerged all the time (60ft).? We did that to prevent vandalism when we were away from the operation.? Also we had items on the rov that would deteriorate when exposed to air.? Hank? On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:46:31 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, I would think several prototype parts should be destroyed to determine the average failure point.? Then test the part going into service to the same as other parts 1.5:1 ?? Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:31:43 PM, Alan wrote: Thanks Hank. On this subject. I had some wicking of salt water up 2 foot of wire on the inside of my sub. It stopped at the through hull. Obviously the potting of the bare wires in the through hull did a good job holting this. I am wondering if this wicking occurs on external wires where the cable ?& insulation go in to the potting mix & at the point where a section of? wire is stripped. ?In other words, can the water pressure squeeze the external wire cladding & get between it & the potting mix, then at the point where the wire is stripped, turn backward & run up the inside of the wire sheathing? Any experience of this? On my first ever potting attempt, I didn't strip back a section of the wire &? just ran it?through a block of epoxy. It leaked compensating fluid just with the pressure of gravity. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 11:02 AM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >The failure was unremarkable, it was a pin hole size leak through the potting material.? I am not sure if the leak travelled along the bare wire first.? There is no way to tell, I did drill it out and the material was well consolidated and cured.? I have ordered new polyurethane because I suspect my old st material has frozen one to many times.? I think I will stick to tried and true method though.? That is a single threaded rod in a threaded fitting with oversized washer.? I can pressurize one to 3,000 psi to see when and if it fails.? That is the limit of my compressor. >Hank? > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:48:55 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, > > >What was the nature of the failure, leak, extrusion of potting material (epoxy) or a catastrophic mechanical failure? Knowing how things behave in failure is helpful in looking for potential?warning signs ahead of time. > > >Your test program is pretty cool, a lot to learn here. > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 3:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Alan, >the fitting is tapered, it is pipe thread.? As a safety, I have a? washer of non conducting material under the nut to prevent the rod from pushing through the fitting. >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:16:38 PM, Alan wrote: > >I follow, >you are getting wicking down the wires, not a failure from >the epoxy extruding through the through hull fitting. >If your design did fail, It could be in a catastrophic manner. >I would want a bit of inward taper. Their is a perfect inward >taper angle, but not sure what it is. Aside from stopping the >potting mix extruding, the taper would compress the potting >compound around the wires under pressure >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 23/12/2013, at 7:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Hi Alan, >>There is only thread on the inside of the fitting for the epoxy to grab, but that seem good.? I think the failure is from the smooth copper wire.? If I use threaded rod it works perfect. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:45:18 AM, Alan wrote: >> >>Hank, >>so their is no taper or key to hold the epoxy, >>just a standard tube threaded on the outside? >>Alan >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 23/12/2013, at 5:25 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>I just did a potting experiment, I removed the main ?electric penetrator from my little yellow sub and pressure tested it to 1,000psi.? I left it over night and it held 1,000psi with no leaks.? That penetrator is my standard simple threaded rod in poly urethane.? I tried the same technique with 11 bare wires except I started with 5min epoxy for the first .75in? just to seal it to hold the very slow curing poly urethane from leaking out.? Well it failed at 1,000psi, I am not sure if is the small wire versus the larger threaded rod.? More testing?:-)? >>>Hank? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, December 21, 2013 10:45:39 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>Jon, >>> >>>As a diver I would say depth. The reason being that in a blow and go scenario you need to know that last depth and time to blow down to know your bottom time for what would be hopefully, a controlled ascent. Think USN dive tables. >>> >>>This is a big reason why I think I personally would limit my own personal maximum operational depth to 250' with a practical use somewhat less. I might design for a 1,000', but I'm not going there. I really don't think I would like to go any deeper than say something like the Andrea Doria in a homebuilt non certified sub. Conversely, I'd do Titanic in Alvin, Mir, or Nautile in a heartbeat if I got the chance. >>> >>>Pay close attention to that next 25 story building you stand next to and picture yourself ascending from street level to the roof line. You may need to stop at the 24th floor for a while, if you can control that last ten feet that is. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] instruments, pressure display? >>>Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:34:24 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>I will be displaying depth in feet.? Is there any practical reason to >>>also display pressure?? It's easy enough for me to do so but it seems >>>superfluous.? Which do you prefer, depth indicator or pressure >>>indicator, and why? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 22 18:42:04 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:42:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator testing In-Reply-To: <1387754145.6508.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387754145.6508.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B778CC.2070801@psubs.org> Can I ask that we try to keep the subject lines on target? Better to start a new topic with appropriate subject than hi-jack a thread with topic that has no bearing on the subject. A threaded rod should certainly do better than bare wire, like re-bar in concrete. It represents a problem however when you want to pass 8 or 10 wires through because you end up needing a rather large housing to keep all the rods separated. Curious if you are using steel, brass, or aluminum threaded rod Hank, what size, and what size wire you are connecting to the rods. Jon From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 22 18:51:42 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:51:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone Message-ID: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> Thought this might interest some of you. With little effort I can incorporate some basic audible alarms into my environment monitoring project to notify me of off-scale sensor conditions. At first I considered just sounding a buzzer and flashing a light next to the sensor that was off scale. For just a few dollars more I can include mp3 playback of synthesized voice warnings for a particular off-scale operating condition, ie. low oxygen, high carbon dioxide. I edited together some aircraft warning sounds along with synthesized voice from an online text-to-speech convertor to create a small library of voice warnings I call "Matilda". MP3 recordings attached. It requires a bit more hardware but from a software perspective the program is only a few lines longer than implementing a basic piezo buzzer alarm. Pre-dive checklist will include testing alarms to ensure they are working correctly and an override button will allow stopping the alarm during operations so you don't have to listen "Matilda" all the way to the surface. I've decided to use the "buzz,buzz,buzz,buzz" sound for informational alarms and the "whoop,whoop" sound for emergency alarms. Now if only I could find text-to-speech translator for Yosemite Sam or Foghorn Leghorn to make it really unique. Jon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CO2_high.mp3 Type: audio/mpeg Size: 206888 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: max_depth.mp3 Type: audio/mpeg Size: 121207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 22 18:52:24 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:52:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator testing In-Reply-To: <52B778CC.2070801@psubs.org> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387754145.6508.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52B778CC.2070801@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387756344.86349.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry Jon, I don't know how to start a new thread, I am not much of a computer nerd, wish I was. I have ben using 3/8 in steel rod for the battery supply and 1/8in I think for control wires, again steel. I wonder if other materials would be better.? That may be worth testing also.? Hank On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:42:32 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: Can I ask that we try to keep the subject lines on target?? Better to start a new topic with appropriate subject than hi-jack a thread with topic that has no bearing on the subject. A threaded rod should certainly do better than bare wire, like re-bar in concrete.? It represents a problem however when you want to pass 8 or 10 wires through because you end up needing a rather large housing to keep all the rods separated.? Curious if you are using steel, brass, or aluminum threaded rod Hank, what size, and what size wire you are connecting to the rods. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Dec 22 19:02:41 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:02:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator testing In-Reply-To: <1387756344.86349.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <52B65DC0.1020005@psubs.org> <1387691120.13648.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387729526.99687.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <75D529C0-3F3D-4C09-A47D-F96389141589@yahoo.com> <1387738169.48548.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387744411.58776.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387748935.14383.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1387749748.58540.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387752391.62394.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387753328.62532.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1387754145.6508.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52B778CC.2070801@psubs.org> <1387756344.86349.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B77DA1.3040904@psubs.org> Hank, from what I can glean online it looks like order of conductivity, from lowest to highest, is steel - brass - aluminum - copper. I know brass threaded rod is pretty easy to get from your local hardware store and aluminum can be gotten from specialty shops or special order. Probably need a special AL-CU connector though for the AL rod. Jon On 12/22/2013 6:52 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Sorry Jon, > I don't know how to start a new thread, I am not much of a computer > nerd, wish I was. > I have ben using 3/8 in steel rod for the battery supply and 1/8in I > think for control wires, again steel. > I wonder if other materials would be better. That may be worth > testing also. > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 19:09:04 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:09:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> References: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387757344.79893.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jon, Oh no, now you've done it, now that's way too cool I have to have it!! Maybe even HAL's voice, (Na, too creepy!) I'm not going to delve into that now but, somewhere down the road rest assured I'm looking into that further. Along the same lines are video overlays for depth and heading, all stuff to play with later, but definitely on my to do list! I envision incorporating various high tech toys overlying the basic bare bones critical systems, all for the pure fun of it. The pilot in me will determine a minimum equipment list and red tag yellow tag system, but you've just got to have fun with this too! Joe On Sunday, December 22, 2013 6:54 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: Thought this might interest some of you.? With little effort I can incorporate some basic audible alarms into my environment monitoring project to notify me of off-scale sensor conditions.? At first I considered just sounding a buzzer and flashing a light next to the sensor that was off scale.? For just a few dollars more I can include mp3 playback of synthesized voice warnings for a particular off-scale operating condition, ie. low oxygen, high carbon dioxide. I edited together some aircraft warning sounds along with synthesized voice from an online text-to-speech convertor to create a small library of voice warnings I call "Matilda".? MP3 recordings attached.? It requires a bit more hardware but from a software perspective the program is only a few lines longer than implementing a basic piezo buzzer alarm. Pre-dive checklist will include testing alarms to ensure they are working correctly and an override button will allow stopping the alarm during operations so you don't have to listen "Matilda" all the way to the surface.? I've decided to use the "buzz,buzz,buzz,buzz" sound for informational alarms and the "whoop,whoop" sound for emergency alarms.? Now if only I could find text-to-speech translator for Yosemite Sam or Foghorn Leghorn to make it really unique. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 20:45:01 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:45:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> References: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5AFEAEF5-1172-4F41-AE1A-3864B7676BE7@yahoo.com> That's very good Jon, I'll buy 2. I want to be able to send people down in my next 1 person sub, so warnings like that would have more meaning for them should an incident occur. Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/12/2013, at 12:51 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Thought this might interest some of you. With little effort I can incorporate some basic audible alarms into my environment monitoring project to notify me of off-scale sensor conditions. At first I considered just sounding a buzzer and flashing a light next to the sensor that was off scale. For just a few dollars more I can include mp3 playback of synthesized voice warnings for a particular off-scale operating condition, ie. low oxygen, high carbon dioxide. I edited together some aircraft warning sounds along with synthesized voice from an online text-to-speech convertor to create a small library of voice warnings I call "Matilda". MP3 recordings attached. It requires a bit more hardware but from a software perspective the program is only a few lines longer than implementing a basic piezo buzzer alarm. > > Pre-dive checklist will include testing alarms to ensure they are working correctly and an override button will allow stopping the alarm during operations so you don't have to listen "Matilda" all the way to the surface. I've decided to use the "buzz,buzz,buzz,buzz" sound for informational alarms and the "whoop,whoop" sound for emergency alarms. Now if only I could find text-to-speech translator for Yosemite Sam or Foghorn Leghorn to make it really unique. > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 22:11:35 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:11:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Have you thought about adding sensors for the battery pods ? Maybe moisture and pressure. -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 12/22/13, Jon Wallace wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Sunday, December 22, 2013, 3:51 PM Thought this might interest some of you.? With little effort I can incorporate some basic audible alarms into my environment monitoring project to notify me of off-scale sensor conditions.? At first I considered just sounding a buzzer and flashing a light next to the sensor that was off scale.? For just a few dollars more I can include mp3 playback of synthesized voice warnings for a particular off-scale operating condition, ie. low oxygen, high carbon dioxide. I edited together some aircraft warning sounds along with synthesized voice from an online text-to-speech convertor to create a small library of voice warnings I call "Matilda".? MP3 recordings attached.? It requires a bit more hardware but from a software perspective the program is only a few lines longer than implementing a basic piezo buzzer alarm. Pre-dive checklist will include testing alarms to ensure they are working correctly and an override button will allow stopping the alarm during operations so you don't have to listen "Matilda" all the way to the surface.? I've decided to use the "buzz,buzz,buzz,buzz" sound for informational alarms and the "whoop,whoop" sound for emergency alarms.? Now if only I could find text-to-speech translator for Yosemite Sam or Foghorn Leghorn to make it really unique. Jon -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jonw at psubs.org Mon Dec 23 14:17:56 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:17:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B88C64.4000808@psubs.org> It's certainly feasible but space is very tight in the battery pod and it would probably require another penetration for the signal wire. Some other sensors would be monitoring HP air, battery voltage, amp hours, etc. On 12/22/2013 10:11 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > Have you thought about adding sensors for the battery pods ? Maybe moisture and pressure. > From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 14:26:40 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:26:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <52B88C64.4000808@psubs.org> References: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52B88C64.4000808@psubs.org> Message-ID: On the new sub, which has battery pods, I intend to put one of those off the shelf (Home Depot) dry cell powered flood alarms in each pod. I should be able to hear them from the cabin, and no penetrators are required. Merry Christmas everyone! Alec > On Dec 23, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > It's certainly feasible but space is very tight in the battery pod and it would probably require another penetration for the signal wire. Some other sensors would be monitoring HP air, battery voltage, amp hours, etc. > > >> On 12/22/2013 10:11 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: >> Have you thought about adding sensors for the battery pods ? Maybe moisture and pressure. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From cgraca2 at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 14:36:57 2013 From: cgraca2 at gmail.com (Christopher Graca) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:36:57 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: References: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52B88C64.4000808@psubs.org> Message-ID: Alec, You should stick with the aquatic theme and go with these! http://www.amazon.com/Leak-Frog-LF001-Water-Alarm/dp/B000WMSTUO -Chris On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Private wrote: > On the new sub, which has battery pods, I intend to put one of those off > the shelf (Home Depot) dry cell powered flood alarms in each pod. I should > be able to hear them from the cabin, and no penetrators are required. > > Merry Christmas everyone! > > Alec > > > > > On Dec 23, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > > > > It's certainly feasible but space is very tight in the battery pod and > it would probably require another penetration for the signal wire. Some > other sensors would be monitoring HP air, battery voltage, amp hours, etc. > > > > > >> On 12/22/2013 10:11 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > >> Have you thought about adding sensors for the battery pods ? Maybe > moisture and pressure. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 14:52:42 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:52:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: References: <1387768295.5945.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52B88C64.4000808@psubs.org> Message-ID: <0D6E4192-172A-49A6-8AD3-1DA652D6632B@gmail.com> Definitely. Ah, the things we can do when unburdened by the claim of being "professional" sub builders! > On Dec 23, 2013, at 2:36 PM, Christopher Graca wrote: > > Alec, > > You should stick with the aquatic theme and go with these! > http://www.amazon.com/Leak-Frog-LF001-Water-Alarm/dp/B000WMSTUO > > -Chris > > > >> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Private wrote: >> On the new sub, which has battery pods, I intend to put one of those off the shelf (Home Depot) dry cell powered flood alarms in each pod. I should be able to hear them from the cabin, and no penetrators are required. >> >> Merry Christmas everyone! >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> > On Dec 23, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> > >> > >> > It's certainly feasible but space is very tight in the battery pod and it would probably require another penetration for the signal wire. Some other sensors would be monitoring HP air, battery voltage, amp hours, etc. >> > >> > >> >> On 12/22/2013 10:11 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: >> >> Have you thought about adding sensors for the battery pods ? Maybe moisture and pressure. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Dec 23 19:22:21 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:22:21 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Matilda - you'll never dive alone In-Reply-To: <1387757344.79893.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52B77B0E.8040200@psubs.org> <1387757344.79893.YahooMailNeo@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52B8D3BD.3080907@archivale.com> "Surface? I'm sorry, Dave - I just can't do that." Marc On 12/23/2013 8:09 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Jon, > > Oh no, now you've done it, now that's way too cool I have to have it!! > Maybe even HAL's voice, (Na, too creepy!) > > I'm not going to delve into that now but, somewhere down the road rest > assured I'm looking into that further. Along the same lines are video > overlays for depth and heading, all stuff to play with later, but > definitely on my to do list! > > I envision incorporating various high tech toys overlying the basic bare > bones critical systems, all for the pure fun of it. The pilot in me will > determine a minimum equipment list and red tag yellow tag system, but > you've just got to have fun with this too! > > Joe > > > On Sunday, December 22, 2013 6:54 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Thought this might interest some of you. With little effort I can > incorporate some basic audible alarms into my environment monitoring > project to notify me of off-scale sensor conditions. At first I > considered just sounding a buzzer and flashing a light next to the > sensor that was off scale. For just a few dollars more I can include > mp3 playback of synthesized voice warnings for a particular off-scale > operating condition, ie. low oxygen, high carbon dioxide. I edited > together some aircraft warning sounds along with synthesized voice from > an online text-to-speech convertor to create a small library of voice > warnings I call "Matilda". MP3 recordings attached. It requires a bit > more hardware but from a software perspective the program is only a few > lines longer than implementing a basic piezo buzzer alarm. > > Pre-dive checklist will include testing alarms to ensure they are > working correctly and an override button will allow stopping the alarm > during operations so you don't have to listen "Matilda" all the way to > the surface. I've decided to use the "buzz,buzz,buzz,buzz" sound for > informational alarms and the "whoop,whoop" sound for emergency alarms. > Now if only I could find text-to-speech translator for Yosemite Sam or > Foghorn Leghorn to make it really unique. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jonw at psubs.org Tue Dec 24 08:21:19 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:21:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays Message-ID: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. May all our dreams come true in 2014. Jon From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Dec 24 08:28:52 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:28:52 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> References: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> Message-ID: Ditto : ) Much thanks to your herding us cats this last year Jon! Steve On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. > Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. > May all our dreams come true in 2014. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 24 12:25:27 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:25:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1387905927.46301.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "Merry Christmas,...Dave"

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1908.PNG Type: image/png Size: 46132 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Dec 24 13:10:54 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <1387905927.46301.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1387905927.46301.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Merry Christmas and a very happy new year to all of you PSUBS folks. ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > "Merry Christmas,...Dave" > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Steve McQueen ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays > * Sent: * Tue, Dec 24, 2013 1:28:52 PM > > Ditto : ) > > Much thanks to your herding us cats this last year Jon! > Steve > > > On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >> >> Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. >> Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. >> May all our dreams come true in 2014. >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Dec 24 13:13:02 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:13:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: References: <1387905927.46301.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0CEEAEB5411D8-D8C-3EE96@webmail-d287.sysops.aol.com> And here I am shopping on Christmas Eve again. Sigh. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays Merry Christmas and a very happy new year to all of you PSUBS folks. ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: "Merry Christmas,...Dave" Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Steve McQueen ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 1:28:52 PM Ditto : ) Much thanks to your herding us cats this last year Jon! Steve On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. May all our dreams come true in 2014. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Dec 24 17:25:10 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:25:10 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> References: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56B4278A-9EEC-4833-B472-EF11E70A0623@yahoo.com> Merry Christmas, It's arrived here in N.Z. already. But don't worry there will be plenty of presents over by the time Santa gets to America. The kids here are so bad that he hasn't left much. Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/12/2013, at 2:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. May all our dreams come true in 2014. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From phil at philnuytten.com Tue Dec 17 18:04:16 2013 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:04:16 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <56B4278A-9EEC-4833-B472-EF11E70A0623@yahoo.com> References: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> <56B4278A-9EEC-4833-B472-EF11E70A0623@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9F8ECF62C4D140129B1B8E20A8FA164A@PhillPC> In this time of peace and goodwill towards men, it may be appropriate to remind all Psubbers of the Nuytco company moto . . "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SUB, GET ONE !!!" Seasons best to all, Phil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 2:25 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays Merry Christmas, It's arrived here in N.Z. already. But don't worry there will be plenty of presents over by the time Santa gets to America. The kids here are so bad that he hasn't left much. Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/12/2013, at 2:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. > Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. > May all our dreams come true in 2014. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Dec 25 11:47:36 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:47:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <9F8ECF62C4D140129B1B8E20A8FA164A@PhillPC> References: <52B98A4F.7070506@psubs.org> <56B4278A-9EEC-4833-B472-EF11E70A0623@yahoo.com> <9F8ECF62C4D140129B1B8E20A8FA164A@PhillPC> Message-ID: <1387990056.48258.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> A Christmas Limerick On Christmas morning I awakened to see Two Elves from Nuytco were under my tree Alas they came to bring me good cheer Come see in your yard, what we have brought you here A Deepworker sub?for you?to go down to the sea Mele Kalikimaka!! On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 5:47 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: In this time of peace and goodwill towards men, it may be appropriate to remind all Psubbers of the Nuytco? company moto . . "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SUB, GET ONE !!!" Seasons best to all, Phil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 2:25 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays Merry Christmas, It's arrived here in N.Z. already. But don't worry there will be plenty of presents over by the time Santa gets to America. The kids here are so bad that he hasn't left much. Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/12/2013, at 2:21 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Wishing all my PSUB brothers a very merry Christmas and holiday season. > Thank you all for sharing your time, expertise, and experiences with us. > May all our dreams come true in 2014. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 03:07:36 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:07:36 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Exostructure & equipment Message-ID: <1A231B41-26D9-41FA-90C6-67BE8CFBD1AA@yahoo.com> Back in to my G.L. summary after a good Christmas break. The normal load on the exostructure should be no more than .6 of the yeild strength. No air bubbles should remain in the exostructure when diving. Proof of the quality characteristics of the material is required. Care taken regarding features that may cause entanglement. The shell is reinforced in the area of the diving tanks & no elements of the shell are to be screwed to the diving tanks. As far as necessary submersibles are to be equipped with ram frames to protect the pressure hull & other vulnerable components. In the addition of the exostructure there needs to be an ability to inspect & preserve the pressure hull. There needs to be lifting points for salvage. they need a safety against rupture of 8 times the safe working load ( & marked with safe working load ) A towing point is to be provided & designed so that the access opening can't be flooded at maximum planned towing speed. Anchoring equipment needs to be jettisonable. Bollards cleats etc are required for mooring. Masts radar & sensory equipment as well as air pipes are normally retracted in to the exostructure while submerged. Their height is on a case by case basis. Manipulators are to be jettisonable & by a means that is operable upon main power failure. Active corrosion protection ie sufficient sacrificial anodes, are required. Corrosion protective painting to G.L. standards is required inside the pressure hull. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 04:43:52 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:43:52 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] transducer switch Message-ID: <666FCA35-F701-401F-943A-D8D24EB365B5@yahoo.com> Just came across this switch that can connect 2 transducers to 1 sonar display. http://store.humminbird.com/products/425543/US3 The idea being that you have a downward looking transducer for bottom terrain & depth, & a collision avoidance sonar pointing forward, that you can switch between & display on the one unit. I have little knowledge about sonar. Does this idea have any merit, or is anyone doing his? Regards Alan Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 04:49:12 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:49:12 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Transducer switch Message-ID: <7C600040-55EC-4CE5-83E2-840DCAAA45FF@yahoo.com> Meant to send this link http://www.humminbird.com/Faq.aspx?TaxonomyId=99A1742 which says the switch can be used for connecting 2 transducers to one fish finder, while the previous link only mentions connecting 2 fish finders to 1 transducer. Alan Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 04:56:35 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:56:35 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Transducer switch Message-ID: OK 3rd time lucky, they had the wrong link on their site. http://store.humminbird.com/products/426079/TS3 Alan Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Dec 28 18:15:55 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:15:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen Message-ID: <8D0D239E4D3AA8F-F20-5099B@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Great video of Alvin, Sea Cliff (DSV-4), and mockup of next gen DSV. Includes interview with Robert Ballard. Link below. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfOF2FdZksU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 20:12:52 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 17:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Project Falcon Message-ID: <1388279572.71926.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Have you seen this http://labs.autodesk.com/utilities/falcon From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 20:40:15 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 17:40:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen In-Reply-To: <8D0D239E4D3AA8F-F20-5099B@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388281215.24766.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I began watching it when I had to google and down load this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetwzFJ64yE -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/28/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Saturday, December 28, 2013, 3:15 PM Great video of Alvin, Sea Cliff (DSV-4), and mockup of next gen DSV.? Includes interview with Robert Ballard.?Link below. ?-Jim ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfOF2FdZksU -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Dec 28 21:23:00 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:23:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen In-Reply-To: <1388281215.24766.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388281215.24766.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2540791E4F5-F20-5116D@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Pete, Strangely I saw a short clip from that movie earlier today. The version with Kirk Douglas (1954) is the only one I had seen before. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen I began watching it when I had to google and down load this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetwzFJ64yE -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/28/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Saturday, December 28, 2013, 3:15 PM Great video of Alvin, Sea Cliff (DSV-4), and mockup of next gen DSV. Includes interview with Robert Ballard. Link below. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfOF2FdZksU -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 29 00:00:14 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:00:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen In-Reply-To: <8D0D2540791E4F5-F20-5116D@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388293214.30688.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Produced by precursor of Universal Studios, 4 years after Titanic, two before Red Baron is shot down.

Fabulous, thank you for the link!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 29 00:42:06 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:42:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape Message-ID: <1388295726.69376.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On a historical but sub related note, I've been doing research of late regarding war patrols of US Fleet Boats in the Pacific theater. Aside from interesting history I've been looking at the fates of USS Wahoo and USS Lagarto with particular interest. Both were lost with all hands in shallow water and both received direct hits.

What surprises me about both situations is the apparent question in the minds of sub veterans of the period as to why no one escaped from non-damaged compartments?

Having been a shore based peace time Airedale sailor I am by no means an expert but, wouldn't shock waves in both scenarios have been incapacitating if not directly fatal throughout the ship? I am surprised that there should be any question here.

The question comes up in that I am looking at escape scenarios and potential barriers to same. So I wonder, can a man remain conscious and capable with the sudden loss of pressure vessel integrity at X depth, etc, and where the reasonable limits are? What best case failure mode allows one to use that flood valve in the first place?

Joe


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Dec 29 05:31:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 29 Dec 2013 10:31 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape In-Reply-To: <1388295726.69376.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388295726.69376.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VxDeN-1b7a1w0@fwd30.t-online.de> Hi Joe, the amount of sailors manage to escape is unkown. Many of them died later on the surface without notice. Also on a direct hit of a waterbomb, torpedo or mine the internal explosion pressure increase kill them all. I dive on many submarine wrecks of WWI in the North sea. A mine hit seperate a suvb of this period normal nearly in two parts. A other think is that opne bulkhead doors during the hit doos not help. And closed bulkheads are never complete tight on a long term. vbr Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: On a historical but sub related note, I've been doing research of late regarding war patrols of US Fleet Boats in the Pacific theater. Aside from interesting history I've been looking at the fates of USS Wahoo and USS Lagarto with particular interest. Both were lost with all hands in shallow water and both received direct hits. What surprises me about both situations is the apparent question in the minds of sub veterans of the period as to why no one escaped from non-damaged compartments? Having been a shore based peace time Airedale sailor I am by no means an expert but, wouldn't shock waves in both scenarios have been incapacitating if not directly fatal throughout the ship? I am surprised that there should be any question here. The question comes up in that I am looking at escape scenarios and potential barriers to same. So I wonder, can a man remain conscious and capable with the sudden loss of pressure vessel integrity at X depth, etc, and where the reasonable limits are? What best case failure mode allows one to use that flood valve in the first place? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From subvet596 at optonline.net Sun Dec 29 07:55:33 2013 From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:55:33 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape In-Reply-To: <1388295726.69376.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388295726.69376.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1678086664-1388321732-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1966619122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> Joe: The internal holding bulkhead doors are not usually closed, a direct hit would cause instant flooding. Assume it didn't than the first order of business would be damage control. Also if the boat did not settle in the upright position / even keel that would be a problem. There were some documented escapes, USS Tang comes to mind. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel Sender: Personal_Submersibles Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:42:06 To: [ No Name ] Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From kocpnt at tds.net Sun Dec 29 08:51:43 2013 From: kocpnt at tds.net (kocpnt tds.net) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 07:51:43 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen In-Reply-To: <1388293214.30688.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0D2540791E4F5-F20-5116D@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <1388293214.30688.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent Link! Thanks, Jim K On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Produced by precursor of Universal Studios, 4 years after Titanic, two > before Red Baron is shot down. > > Fabulous, thank you for the link! > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; > * To: * ; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen > * Sent: * Sun, Dec 29, 2013 2:23:00 AM > > Pete, > Strangely I saw a short clip from that movie earlier today. The version > with Kirk Douglas (1954) is the only one I had seen before. > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Niedermayr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:40 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen > > I began watching it when I had to google and down load this > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetwzFJ64yE > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 12/28/13, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballard, Alvin, & Next Gen > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Saturday, December 28, 2013, 3:15 PM > > > Great video of Alvin, > Sea Cliff (DSV-4), and mockup of next gen DSV. > Includes interview with Robert Ballard. Link below. > -Jim > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfOF2FdZksU > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Dec 29 10:09:31 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 07:09:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape In-Reply-To: <1678086664-1388321732-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1966619122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1388329771.19979.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Carsten,

There is a U-boat in British waters, I forget which, that sank mysteriously with no battle damage in deep water with a single torpedo tube door open, do you know this boat?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 29 10:40:24 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 10:40:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Message-ID: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Dec 29 10:44:38 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 29 11:49:36 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 08:49:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m? Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered.? I learned a thing or two.? Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 29 11:55:16 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 10:55:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m > Hank > > > On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jimtoddpsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible > > Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. > -Jim > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 29 11:59:13 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 08:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> Message-ID: <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> That is not a surprise,? Was that in the video, I skipped over some of it. I am adding a couple of these guys to my hero list. Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:55:16 AM, Jim Todd wrote: Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago.? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m? >Hank > > > >On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: jimtoddpsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible > > >Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered.? I learned a thing or two.? Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. >-Jim >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 29 12:30:07 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:30:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2D2C046103C-F20-52685@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Hi Hank, I think they made some passing reference in the video to the cost over-run, don't know if they recited the $2 million figure or not. That would equate to about $2.47 million today. Other stats: 18 tonnes, 37 feet long, tested to 1350 ft., 6 persons. Marlin Subs was planning improved subs (P7) in the series, but I don't know what came of it since they have developed several other types. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:59 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible That is not a surprise, Was that in the video, I skipped over some of it. I am adding a couple of these guys to my hero list. Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:55:16 AM, Jim Todd wrote: Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Dec 29 12:37:13 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:37:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <8D0D2D2C046103C-F20-52685@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0D2D2C046103C-F20-52685@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2D3BEAECF6F-28C-4F51E@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> I read some stuff about that double bubble deal. It was a monumental pain for the manufacturer and there were several failures before they finally got one to work. Connecting the two adds some serious stress, apparently. HBOI looked into a Sub 3 concept (a double bubble) but never seriously considered interconnecting the pressure hulls. The design called for two crewed hulls with a containment pod between them which would hold all the structure: MBTs, gases, and batteries, et al, in a streamlined shell. There was a time when it could have been built for not much money as HBOI already had all the data and certs for acrylic and the operating systems, and nobody in the world pushed plastic harder than they did. In other words, not a new design, but a reconfiguration of the old one. In any case, it didn't happen, and now it's all a bunch of expensive museum pieces. Sigh. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Hi Hank, I think they made some passing reference in the video to the cost over-run, don't know if they recited the $2 million figure or not. That would equate to about $2.47 million today. Other stats: 18 tonnes, 37 feet long, tested to 1350 ft., 6 persons. Marlin Subs was planning improved subs (P7) in the series, but I don't know what came of it since they have developed several other types. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:59 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible That is not a surprise, Was that in the video, I skipped over some of it. I am adding a couple of these guys to my hero list. Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:55:16 AM, Jim Todd wrote: Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Dec 29 12:58:11 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:58:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <8D0D2D3BEAECF6F-28C-4F51E@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0D2D2C046103C-F20-52685@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2D3BEAECF6F-28C-4F51E@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2D6ABF1B31C-F20-5278B@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Side view of Alicia AP6. The double bubble doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling primarily because I don't intuitively understand it. it would be interesting to see how the stresses move as pressure increases. -JT -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 11:37 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible I read some stuff about that double bubble deal. It was a monumental pain for the manufacturer and there were several failures before they finally got one to work. Connecting the two adds some serious stress, apparently. HBOI looked into a Sub 3 concept (a double bubble) but never seriously considered interconnecting the pressure hulls. The design called for two crewed hulls with a containment pod between them which would hold all the structure: MBTs, gases, and batteries, et al, in a streamlined shell. There was a time when it could have been built for not much money as HBOI already had all the data and certs for acrylic and the operating systems, and nobody in the world pushed plastic harder than they did. In other words, not a new design, but a reconfiguration of the old one. In any case, it didn't happen, and now it's all a bunch of expensive museum pieces. Sigh. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Hi Hank, I think they made some passing reference in the video to the cost over-run, don't know if they recited the $2 million figure or not. That would equate to about $2.47 million today. Other stats: 18 tonnes, 37 feet long, tested to 1350 ft., 6 persons. Marlin Subs was planning improved subs (P7) in the series, but I don't know what came of it since they have developed several other types. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:59 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible That is not a surprise, Was that in the video, I skipped over some of it. I am adding a couple of these guys to my hero list. Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:55:16 AM, Jim Todd wrote: Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Dec 29 14:45:59 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:45:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible In-Reply-To: <8D0D2D6ABF1B31C-F20-5278B@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D2C36C21311C-F20-520C1@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2C403F1E0E1-A3C-5070C@webmail-m272.sysops.aol.com> <1388335776.94748.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <33271D3B-42CE-4594-AF73-09D239D48A06@aol.com> <1388336353.61460.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0D2D2C046103C-F20-52685@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2D3BEAECF6F-28C-4F51E@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> <8D0D2D6ABF1B31C-F20-5278B@webmail-d132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0D2E5BB18700D-26F8-2F774@webmail-m265.sysops.aol.com> I guess I'll have to go back and watch the how-we-dun-it show. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Side view of Alicia AP6. The double bubble doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling primarily because I don't intuitively understand it. it would be interesting to see how the stresses move as pressure increases. -JT -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 11:37 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible I read some stuff about that double bubble deal. It was a monumental pain for the manufacturer and there were several failures before they finally got one to work. Connecting the two adds some serious stress, apparently. HBOI looked into a Sub 3 concept (a double bubble) but never seriously considered interconnecting the pressure hulls. The design called for two crewed hulls with a containment pod between them which would hold all the structure: MBTs, gases, and batteries, et al, in a streamlined shell. There was a time when it could have been built for not much money as HBOI already had all the data and certs for acrylic and the operating systems, and nobody in the world pushed plastic harder than they did. In other words, not a new design, but a reconfiguration of the old one. In any case, it didn't happen, and now it's all a bunch of expensive museum pieces. Sigh. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Hi Hank, I think they made some passing reference in the video to the cost over-run, don't know if they recited the $2 million figure or not. That would equate to about $2.47 million today. Other stats: 18 tonnes, 37 feet long, tested to 1350 ft., 6 persons. Marlin Subs was planning improved subs (P7) in the series, but I don't know what came of it since they have developed several other types. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:59 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible That is not a surprise, Was that in the video, I skipped over some of it. I am adding a couple of these guys to my hero list. Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:55:16 AM, Jim Todd wrote: Cost over run took it to $2 million 10 years ago. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Wow what an inspiring effort, I am amazed they did it for 1.5m Hank On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:44:56 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: I don't think the overdramatized that truck load of money it took. Wonder when it was in the water last. Maybe they'd let us keep it at Jon's house in the Keys. We could hold our seminars underwater. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:40 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alicia submersible Great Nova video on the building of the Alicia including problems encountered. I learned a thing or two. Yeah, they dramatize a bit to make it more interesting to the general public. -Jim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBrt3sC6YcA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Dec 30 21:41:07 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:41:07 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar-related - help in translating German ultrasonics term into English Message-ID: <52C22EC3.70301@archivale.com> Greetings fellow submergence fiends! I am hoping to tap the expertise of this group to solve a professional problem. I earn most of my living as a technical translator, and am currently translating a patent application about an ultrasonic transducer. The application is flow measurement, not sonar, but I am hoping that, the technology being similar, the terminology will also be the same. The problem I have encountered is with the German term Vorlaufk?rper, in this context: "Die Ultraschallwandler bestehen normalerweise aus einem Piezoelement, auch kurz Piezo genannt, und einem Koppelelement, auch Koppelkeil oder seltener Vorlaufk?rper genannt." As you can see, it is given as a rare synonym of the term "coupling element," which is described as the element that couples the ultrasonic emission of the piezoelectric element, with the lowest possible losses, into the space where the fluid flow is to be measured. The term does not appear in any of my technical dictionaries or in any online source that I have been able to consult, except a European patent application appearing online, by the same inventors and for a similar - possibly the same - invention, which translates the term as "lead body." Another patent in a similar field translates it as "leading body" in one place and "lead body" in another. This is suspicious on two grounds: one is that it is a literal translation of the German term, and the other is that the owner of this patent would not have commissioned a translation from my client if they had been fully satisfied with the existing one that I found. Frustrated in the direct approach, I tried an inductive scheme that sometimes works, namely assuming an English gloss and translating it back into German to see if I get a "hit" on the original term. I tried "waveguide," "collimator" and other terms that I've forgotten, with no success. So for the moment I've translated it "leading body," but set that term in red to flag it for the proofreader. I would be most grateful if anybody can steer me to a better one, as my reputation is going to suffer if I am forced to throw myself on the mercy of the proofreader or the ultimate client. Best, Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/