From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 14:13:37 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
Message-ID: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Psubbers,

I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./

Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.

I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.

Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.

Joe
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 16:30:39 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 13:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Looks good Joe.
Is there an exploded view available?
Alan


________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Psubbers Mailist <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 7:13 AM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
 


Psubbers,
?
I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
?
Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
?
I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
?
Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
?
Joe
?
?
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov  1 16:38:40 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 16:38:40 -0400
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52741150.20800@psubs.org>

Looks great Joe.


On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
> Psubbers,
> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn 
> Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There 
> are a few detail pictures on my project page. 
> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 
> 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric 
> attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft 
> anode. The beauty of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as 
> required.
> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to 
> Jon for download over the next week or so for whatever process a 
> builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop 
> and body dimensions as required.
> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time 
> comes to build.
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov  1 17:01:03 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
In-Reply-To: <CFDB5E94B5DE4754AA3BE7E3D75385ED@LandNSeaPC>
References: <CAHpB=UCZcYF97-9etnhFB9un=SfuEWbC6wLSAAsC1NzOtzH4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UDrZCt8SEmukQ8Fzfjp-UHFG7x4N0Haq09nSxiPrZ9Zcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
 <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UD8xGN50wZPOFn46nDTKyUSsd0KYAos2+1cgCVMbf4Nag@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ7OU8VR4r=OEwxGzG+YMLdMUEx87uKXWqz-to6UV69tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <AAC4ECE20EB64BA9A6E785FA3B33756A@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CFDB5E94B5DE4754AA3BE7E3D75385ED@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <1383339663.44886.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
I posted a picture of my window test chamber under Gamma restoration.? The chamber is built entirely from scrap in my shop.? I tested the first window to 500psi.? Yes I was nervous :_)?? The top ring is a 1in thick window frame I had from a previous project.??The side of the chamber is 1/4 flat bar bent around and the base is 3/4in plate.? I machined an o-ring groove in the base that bolts to a 5/8 disk left over from building my hatch.?? I also?had to machine the inside of the window frame again after welding it together.? The window sits on a gasket and is bolted as if it were on the sub.
Hank

From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:19:06 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

I was considering doing the same thing, fabricating a test pot to take one to failure just out of curiosity and piece of mind as well as test the rest to 600? before installing them but figured it might me costly to do, so kind of gave up the idea. Let us know your design with any pictures you may have of it and an idea or your cost outlay if you don?t mind and would still like to do it if feasible. I cringe at the idea of a port light failure on the sub when testing and have to reel in a real heavy object full of sea water from 600?!! Good luck and let us know how it went.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:49 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Rick,
Thanks', your right, it will be much safer.? I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test.
Hank?

From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner. 

Rick 

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Today I built a window pressure test chamber.? When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.? Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml.
Hank

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms

Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter.? 
Hank

From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms

Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread?
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
James,
>It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut.
>Hank
>
>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM 
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>Hank,
>Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted.
>Regards
>James
>
>On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
>James,
>>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? 
>>Hank
>>
>>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM 
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks.
>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
>>slightly lower seat! 
>>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? 
>>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM 
>>>Hank,
>>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg?
>>>Regards
>>>James
>>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
>>>Jim,
>>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides.
>>>>Hank
>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>?
>>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote: 
>>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style.
>>>>>
>>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing.
>>>>>-Jim
>>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods 
>>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. 
>>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>>>>James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM 
>>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number?
>>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>>>>>James,
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said.
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>
>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group <member-forum at psubs.org> 
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For example,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The dome of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Overpressure valve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>loads of little modifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs!
>>>>>>>Kind Regards
>>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From psubs2001 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 18:47:22 2013
From: psubs2001 at yahoo.com (Ray Keefer)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383346042.95397.YahooMailNeo@web164802.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Wow, the old guard is passing. We will miss Harold. 





On Sunday, October 27, 2013 10:40 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
 
Jon, thanks for keeping us informed. It is sad to learn of the passing of a fellow submariner. I had read of Harold Maynard in Captain Kittredge's book and wanted to one day meet him. I see now that, like my chance to meet George, my opportunity to meet Mr. Maynard has come and gone. I am sure though that the stories and exploits of Lake Diver will live on.?

Out of curiosity, what has happened to Lake Diver? Did someone purchase the submersible? I noticed that the long standing for sale listing on the site has been removed. ~ Douglas S.?



On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Michael Holt <mholt at ohiohills.com> wrote:

On 10/27/2013 9:37 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>
>I'm sorry not to have known him. I only knew of him.
>>?
>>I'm also sorry I missed Islamorada.
>>?
>>Life is unpredictable, no guaranty of tomorrow.
>>
>>
I find lots of fascinating persons when I read the obituaries.? There's gotta be a way to find them before they're dead.
>
>I'd heard of him, too, and wanted to meet him.? 
>
>
>Mike? 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 19:37:31 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
In-Reply-To: <1383339663.44886.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAHpB=UCZcYF97-9etnhFB9un=SfuEWbC6wLSAAsC1NzOtzH4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UDrZCt8SEmukQ8Fzfjp-UHFG7x4N0Haq09nSxiPrZ9Zcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
 <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UD8xGN50wZPOFn46nDTKyUSsd0KYAos2+1cgCVMbf4Nag@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ7OU8VR4r=OEwxGzG+YMLdMUEx87uKXWqz-to6UV69tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <AAC4ECE20EB64BA9A6E785FA3B33756A@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CFDB5E94B5DE4754AA3BE7E3D75385ED@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383339663.44886.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383349051.21221.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hank,
?
I think that's pretty neat. It does bring a question though.
?
If the acrylic has known properties at?"X" thickness, is there still a need to test? Is it the material?itself that needs?testing, the ?seal, or frame?, I'm not clear here.
?
Joe

________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber



Rick,
I posted a picture of my window test chamber under Gamma restoration.? The chamber is built entirely from scrap in my shop.? I tested the first window to 500psi.? Yes I was nervous :_)?? The top ring is a 1in thick window frame I had from a previous project.??The side of the chamber is 1/4 flat bar bent around and the base is 3/4in plate.? I machined an o-ring groove in the base that bolts to a 5/8 disk left over from building my hatch.?? I also?had to machine the inside of the window frame again after welding it together.? The window sits on a gasket and is bolted as if it were on the sub.
Hank


________________________________
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:19:06 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

I was considering doing the same thing, fabricating a test pot to take one to failure just out of curiosity and piece of mind as well as test the rest to 600? before installing them but figured it might me costly to do, so kind of gave up the idea. Let us know your design with any pictures you may have of it and an idea or your cost outlay if you don?t mind and would still like to do it if feasible. I cringe at the idea of a port light failure on the sub when testing and have to reel in a real heavy object full of sea water from 600?!! Good luck and let us know how it went.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:49 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Rick,
Thanks', your right, it will be much safer.? I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test.
Hank?


________________________________
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner. 

Rick 

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber

Today I built a window pressure test chamber.? When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.? Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml.
Hank


________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms

Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter.? 
Hank


________________________________
From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms

Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread?
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
James,
>It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut.
>Hank
>
>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM 
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>Hank,
>Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted.
>Regards
>James
>
>On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
>James,
>>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? 
>>Hank
>>
>>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM 
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks.
>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
>>slightly lower seat! 
>>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? 
>>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM 
>>>Hank,
>>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg?
>>>Regards
>>>James
>>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
>>>Jim,
>>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides.
>>>>Hank
>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
>>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>?
>>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote: 
>>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style.
>>>>>
>>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing.
>>>>>-Jim
>>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods 
>>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. 
>>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>>>>James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM 
>>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number?
>>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>>>>>>James,
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said.
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>?
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>
>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group <member-forum at psubs.org> 
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For example,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The dome of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Overpressure valve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>loads of little modifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs!
>>>>>>>Kind Regards
>>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

________________________________
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

________________________________
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 19:39:53 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383349193.49907.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
?
Added an exploded view, another builder had some questions as well.
?
Joe


________________________________
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



Looks good Joe.
Is there an exploded view available?
Alan
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov  1 19:40:44 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:40:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Hi Joe,
Nice job, but I see a problem.? The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.? If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.??
Hank?



On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  
Looks great Joe.


On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
 
Psubbers, 
>
>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./ 
>
>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required. 
>
>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required. 
>
>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build. 
>
>Joe 
>
>       
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles   


_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Fri Nov  1 19:44:03 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 19:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keto
Message-ID: <8D0A5736155A64E-112C-2DEDB@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>


Lars,

Just saw your sub "Keto" on the projects page.  Looks good!  What else can you tell us  about it, where you are located, etc.

Jim
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 19:47:54 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hank,
?
I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other?method would you suggest, Im open here?
?
I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
?
Joe


________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



Hi Joe,
Nice job, but I see a problem.? The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.? If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.??
Hank?



On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

Looks great Joe.


On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:

Psubbers,
>
>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>
>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>
>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>
>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>
>Joe
>
>
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 20:16:32 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Joe,
If I'm seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
that the struts fit in to.
Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on.?
Alan


________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
 


Hank,
?
I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other?method would you suggest, Im open here?
?
I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
?
Joe

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



Hi Joe,
Nice job, but I see a problem.? The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.? If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.??
Hank?



On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

Looks great Joe.


On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:

Psubbers,
>?
>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>?
>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>?
>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>?
>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>?
>Joe
>?
>?
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov  1 20:20:00 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
In-Reply-To: <1383349051.21221.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAHpB=UCZcYF97-9etnhFB9un=SfuEWbC6wLSAAsC1NzOtzH4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UDrZCt8SEmukQ8Fzfjp-UHFG7x4N0Haq09nSxiPrZ9Zcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
 <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UD8xGN50wZPOFn46nDTKyUSsd0KYAos2+1cgCVMbf4Nag@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ7OU8VR4r=OEwxGzG+YMLdMUEx87uKXWqz-to6UV69tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <AAC4ECE20EB64BA9A6E785FA3B33756A@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CFDB5E94B5DE4754AA3BE7E3D75385ED@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383339663.44886.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349051.21221.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383351600.47889.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Joe,
In my case my windows were abs certified in 1993.? That means they can only be used to a percentage of the original rating. Also the way the windows were stored is critical, especially if they were in a tropical climate.? Since I can not verify the storage method and location, ?I want to test them to at least the depth I will be testing the hull.
Hank



On Friday, November 1, 2013 5:37:31 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hank, 
? 
I think that's pretty neat. It does bring a question though. 

If the acrylic has known properties at?"X" thickness, is there still a need to test? Is it the material?itself that needs?testing, the ?seal, or frame?, I'm not clear here. 

Joe 

________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
 


Rick, 
I posted a picture of my window test chamber under Gamma restoration.? The chamber is built entirely from scrap in my shop.? I tested the first window to 500psi.? Yes I was nervous :_)?? The top ring is a 1in thick window frame I had from a previous project.??The side of the chamber is 1/4 flat bar bent around and the base is 3/4in plate.? I machined an o-ring groove in the base that bolts to a 5/8 disk left over from building my hatch.?? I also?had to machine the inside of the window frame again after welding it together.? The window sits on a gasket and is bolted as if it were on the sub. 
Hank
 

________________________________
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:19:06 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
 
I was considering doing the same thing, fabricating a test pot to take one to failure just out of curiosity and piece of mind as well as test the rest to 600? before installing them but figured it might me costly to do, so kind of gave up the idea. Let us know your design with any pictures you may have of it and an idea or your cost outlay if you don?t mind and would still like to do it if feasible. I cringe at the idea of a port light failure on the sub when testing and have to reel in a real heavy object full of sea water from 600?!! Good luck and let us know how it went. 

Rick 

From: hank pronk  
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:49 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber 
 
Rick, 
Thanks', your right, it will be much safer.? I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test. 
Hank? 


________________________________
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
 
Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner.  

Rick  

From: hank pronk  
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber 
 
Today I built a window pressure test chamber.? When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.? Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml. 
Hank 


________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
 
Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter.?  
Hank 


________________________________
From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
 
Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? 
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
James, 
>It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. 
>Hank 
>
> 
>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM 
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
> 
>Hank, 
>Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. 
>Regards 
>James
> 
>On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: 
>James, 
>>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.?  
>>Hank 
>>
>>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM  
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
>> 
>> 
>>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks.   
>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
>>slightly lower seat! 
>>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:  
>>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower?  
>>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
>>> 
>>> 
>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;  
>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM  
>>> 
>>>Hank, 
>>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? 
>>>Regards 
>>>James 
>>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:  
>>>Jim, 
>>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. 
>>>>Hank  
>>>> 
>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms 
>>>> 
>>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>? 
>>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:  
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. 
>>>>>-Jim   
>>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods  
>>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull.  
>>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:  
>>>>>James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? 
>>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:  
>>>>>>James, 
>>>>>>>? 
>>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm 
>>>>>>>? 
>>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. 
>>>>>>>? 
>>>>>>>? 
>>>>>>>Joe  
>>>>>>>From: James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>
>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group <member-forum at psubs.org> 
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For example, 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The dome of course. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Overpressure valve. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>loads of little modifications. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! 
>>>>>>>Kind Regards 
>>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>>>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles  
>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>  
>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> 
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

________________________________
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

________________________________
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 20:24:46 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:24:46 -0400
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F381688-A151-4AC6-95F2-944745F99BC3@yahoo.com>

Alan,

No slots on either end for the struts, relying on curvature for placement

I would like to entertain the one piece idea, but don't have an example in my possession to see what's what.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Joe,
> If I'm seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
> so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
> the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
> that the struts fit in to.
> Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
> and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on. 
> Alan
> 
> From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hank,
>  
> I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other method would you suggest, Im open here?
>  
> I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
>  
> Joe
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hi Joe,
> Nice job, but I see a problem.  The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.  If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.  
> Hank 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
> Looks great Joe.
> 
> 
> On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>> Psubbers,
>>  
>> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>>  
>> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>>  
>> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>>  
>> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>>  
>> Joe
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov  1 20:25:04 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Joe,
I would make the hub from one piece of material instead of two.? Then have the tightening method the same as you have now?but on one side only.? Less time to fabricate also.? 
Hank



On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:17:03 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Joe,
If I'm seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
that the struts fit in to.
Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on.?
Alan
 

________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
  


Hank, 
? 
I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other?method would you suggest, Im open here? 
? 
I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise. 
? 
Joe 
 

________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
 


Hi Joe, 
Nice job, but I see a problem.? The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.? If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.?? 
Hank? 



On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
 
Looks great Joe.


On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
 
Psubbers, 
>
>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./ 
>
>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required. 
>
>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required. 
>
>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build. 
>
>Joe 
>
>
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 


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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 20:26:04 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:26:04 -0400
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
In-Reply-To: <1383351600.47889.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAHpB=UCZcYF97-9etnhFB9un=SfuEWbC6wLSAAsC1NzOtzH4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UDrZCt8SEmukQ8Fzfjp-UHFG7x4N0Haq09nSxiPrZ9Zcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
 <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHpB=UD8xGN50wZPOFn46nDTKyUSsd0KYAos2+1cgCVMbf4Nag@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ7OU8VR4r=OEwxGzG+YMLdMUEx87uKXWqz-to6UV69tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <AAC4ECE20EB64BA9A6E785FA3B33756A@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CFDB5E94B5DE4754AA3BE7E3D75385ED@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383339663.44886.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349051.21221.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351600.47889.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A04CBD37-4544-4AD3-9E44-60B93897E7F4@yahoo.com>

That's right, I forgot! 

Thanks Hank!

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:20 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Joe,
> In my case my windows were abs certified in 1993.  That means they can only be used to a percentage of the original rating. Also the way the windows were stored is critical, especially if they were in a tropical climate.  Since I can not verify the storage method and location,  I want to test them to at least the depth I will be testing the hull.
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 5:37:31 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hank,
>  
> I think that's pretty neat. It does bring a question though.
>  
> If the acrylic has known properties at "X" thickness, is there still a need to test? Is it the material itself that needs testing, the  seal, or frame?, I'm not clear here.
>  
> Joe
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
> 
> Rick,
> I posted a picture of my window test chamber under Gamma restoration.  The chamber is built entirely from scrap in my shop.  I tested the first window to 500psi.  Yes I was nervous :_)   The top ring is a 1in thick window frame I had from a previous project.  The side of the chamber is 1/4 flat bar bent around and the base is 3/4in plate.  I machined an o-ring groove in the base that bolts to a 5/8 disk left over from building my hatch.   I also had to machine the inside of the window frame again after welding it together.  The window sits on a gasket and is bolted as if it were on the sub.
> Hank
> From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:19:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
> I was considering doing the same thing, fabricating a test pot to take one to failure just out of curiosity and piece of mind as well as test the rest to 600? before installing them but figured it might me costly to do, so kind of gave up the idea. Let us know your design with any pictures you may have of it and an idea or your cost outlay if you don?t mind and would still like to do it if feasible. I cringe at the idea of a port light failure on the sub when testing and have to reel in a real heavy object full of sea water from 600?!! Good luck and let us know how it went.
>  
> Rick
>  
> From: hank pronk
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:49 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
>  
> Rick,
> Thanks', your right, it will be much safer.  I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test.
> Hank 
>  
> From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
> Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner.
>  
> Rick
>  
> From: hank pronk
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber
>  
> Today I built a window pressure test chamber.  When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.  Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml.
> Hank
>  
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
> Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter. 
> Hank
>  
> From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms
> Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread?
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> James,
> It's like the puller was made for it.  Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.  A real coarse thread, would be faster. 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 20:30:28 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:30:28 -0400
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DF067A65-B643-44A3-8DF7-6703B1C0C75E@yahoo.com>

Ok, I'll make that change.

Thanks Hank!

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:25 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Joe,
> I would make the hub from one piece of material instead of two.  Then have the tightening method the same as you have now but on one side only.  Less time to fabricate also. 
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:17:03 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> If I'm seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
> so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
> the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
> that the struts fit in to.
> Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
> and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on. 
> Alan
> 
> From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hank,
>  
> I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other method would you suggest, Im open here?
>  
> I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
>  
> Joe
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hi Joe,
> Nice job, but I see a problem.  The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.  If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.  
> Hank 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
> Looks great Joe.
> 
> 
> On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>> Psubbers,
>>  
>> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>>  
>> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>>  
>> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>>  
>> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>>  
>> Joe
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 22:23:14 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:23:14 -0400
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A261DA65-6A33-4FB7-9054-12B5B966F87E@gmail.com>

That's exactly what I've got on Snoopy. I just made the hub to slide over the motor can. Then make a thin longitudinal cut, but just along one side. The cut need only offer a very tiny movement for it to clamp tight. I have made two that way, and you can tighten either with integral bolts or just putting screw-driven hose clamps over the hub. The one thing I'd also suggest is making the hub cylindrical instead of the nice tapered section you drew. Not that I don't like it, but fabrication would be a bear. If it were me I'd make the hub out of pipe, not milling it which is what the those curves seem to imply. You can use a piece of pipe and chamfer the angles to make is a little smoother...



> On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:25 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Joe,
> I would make the hub from one piece of material instead of two.  Then have the tightening method the same as you have now but on one side only.  Less time to fabricate also. 
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:17:03 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> If I'm seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
> so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
> the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
> that the struts fit in to.
> Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
> and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on. 
> Alan
> 
> From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hank,
>  
> I'm relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other method would you suggest, Im open here?
>  
> I couldn't figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
>  
> Joe
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Hi Joe,
> Nice job, but I see a problem.  The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.  If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.  
> Hank 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
> Looks great Joe.
> 
> 
>> On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>> Psubbers,
>>  
>> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>>  
>> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>>  
>> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>>  
>> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>>  
>> Joe
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 01:17:23 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:17:23 -0700
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Joe,
This looks great! Is the kort designed to fit the Minn Kota prop I sent
you? I like the thru bolt detail and the 2 piece collar. When will you have
a file I can send to a cnc machine?

Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

>    Psubbers,
>
> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few
> detail pictures on my project page.
> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>
> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 7/8"
> body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring
> as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty
> of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>
> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon
> for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder
> chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body
> dimensions as required.
>
> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes
> to build.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 01:33:37 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:33:37 -0700
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHHFyEFHjbPs0zxxi=UiT2+f=rDVDONnR9HU6SxyTZNuAZcPxA@mail.gmail.com>

Joe,
The one piece collar with a slot that I designed lets the collar slide past
the thruster skag and forward to the down shaft tube, and then bolts to the
skag to lock into position. I was planning on using a rubber gasket as the
separator between the collar and thruster tube. The fins on the kort I was
planning to weld to both collar and kort. The fins would be a shape and
thickness as the existing skag. Since I am planning on making it all out of
stainless, the fewer the number of moving parts the better. The KISS
principal, since I will have to be doing the servicing.

Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Colombo <seaquestor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Joe,
> This looks great! Is the kort designed to fit the Minn Kota prop I sent
> you? I like the thru bolt detail and the 2 piece collar. When will you have
> a file I can send to a cnc machine?
>
> Best Regards,
> David Colombo
>
> 804 College Ave
> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
> (707) 536-1424
> www.SeaQuestor.com
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>    Psubbers,
>>
>> I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few
>> detail pictures on my project page.
>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>>
>> Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8' dia square tip prop, 3 7/8"
>> body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring
>> as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty
>> of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>>
>> I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon
>> for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder
>> chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body
>> dimensions as required.
>>
>> Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes
>> to build.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 04:15:55 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 21:15:55 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383349193.49907.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349193.49907.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BC09B6E2-2B2E-4E67-BAD4-8FBAA1F1413F@yahoo.com>

Following it now Joe, thanks.
I would still cast  the nozzle out of aluminium & make a jig for welding the 
struts & motor clamp if I were mass producing them.
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 2/11/2013, at 12:39 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alan,
>  
> Added an exploded view, another builder had some questions as well.
>  
> Joe
> 
> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 4:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
> 
> Looks good Joe.
> Is there an exploded view available?
> Alan
> <Exploded.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 04:30:09 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 21:30:09 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <BC09B6E2-2B2E-4E67-BAD4-8FBAA1F1413F@yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349193.49907.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <BC09B6E2-2B2E-4E67-BAD4-8FBAA1F1413F@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07811C3B-0CA4-498D-96D4-FD37682D9C3A@yahoo.com>

Joe,
Here's a video on lost foam casting with aluminium in case 
anyone's  not familiar with it.
The end product in this video looks a bit rough, but in our case
Imperfections could be filled in with bog & painted over.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYVQ8ypHss&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9bYVQ8ypHss
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 2/11/2013, at 9:15 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Following it now Joe, thanks.
> I would still cast  the nozzle out of aluminium & make a jig for welding the 
> struts & motor clamp if I were mass producing them.
> Alan
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 2/11/2013, at 12:39 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Alan,
>>  
>> Added an exploded view, another builder had some questions as well.
>>  
>> Joe
>> 
>> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 4:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
>> 
>> Looks good Joe.
>> Is there an exploded view available?
>> Alan
>> <Exploded.jpg>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 08:29:12 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 05:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <A261DA65-6A33-4FB7-9054-12B5B966F87E@gmail.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52741150.20800@psubs.org>
 <1383349244.14801.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349674.4755.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351392.38730.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383351904.61054.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <A261DA65-6A33-4FB7-9054-12B5B966F87E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383395352.82284.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alec,
?
I'll see if I can simplify the collar with off the shelf stock. The ID / OD match for the motor housing may be tough and the other issue being enough material "bite" to thread those long screws. But, I'll look around maybe doublers, spacers, etc?
?
Joe


________________________________
From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



That&apos;s exactly what I&apos;ve got on Snoopy. I just made the hub to slide over the motor can. Then make a thin longitudinal cut, but just along one side. The cut need only offer a very tiny movement for it to clamp tight. I have made two that way, and you can tighten either with integral bolts or just putting screw-driven hose clamps over the hub. The one thing I&apos;d also suggest is making the hub cylindrical instead of the nice tapered section you drew. Not that I don&apos;t like it, but fabrication would be a bear. If it were me I&apos;d make the hub out of pipe, not milling it which is what the those curves seem to imply. You can use a piece of pipe and chamfer the angles to make is a little smoother...




On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:25 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Joe,
>I would make the hub from one piece of material instead of two.? Then have the tightening method the same as you have now?but on one side only.? Less time to fabricate also.? 
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:17:03 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Joe,
>If I&apos;m seeing it right, it looks like the struts are an integral part of the 2 piece retainer clamp,
>so you would have to attach the retainer clamp & struts to the motor first & then bolt
>the kort nozzle to the struts. This would be impossible as you have slots in the kort nozzle
>that the struts fit in to.
>Maybe you could use the motor stem that the wiring comes out of as a locking point (as I did)
>and you could make the unit one piece & slide it on.?
>Alan
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
>
>
>
>Hank,
>?
>I&apos;m relying on 4 equally torqued bolts. What other?method would you suggest, Im open here?
>?
>I couldn&apos;t figure out how to guarantee a firm grip on the motor housing otherwise.
>?
>Joe
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 7:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
>
>
>
>Hi Joe,
>Nice job, but I see a problem.? The mounting hub looks like it has a gap on both sides of the two hub pieces.? If those two pieces (hub) do not come in full contact on both sides, it will distort the nozzle.??
>Hank?
>
>
>
>On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:39:00 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>Looks great Joe.
>
>
>On 11/1/2013 2:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>
>Psubbers,
>>
>>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>>
>>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>>
>>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>>
>>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 08:37:25 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 05:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383395845.69924.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

David,
?
Yes, from your drawing as it was the best clue I had as to dimensions. Minn Kota has been very careful about what is in the public domain.
?
As for the fin, I'm considering only the engine mount series of motors that lacks this fin. Also, there are a number of parts suppliers out there with everything from armatures to housings and more, so a single motor purchase as a guide and the rest scratch built seems quite viable.
?
I'm also a fan of CNC (convenient, neat, & costly), so I'm watching carefully as home shop capability continues to rise and prices fall.
?
Joe


________________________________
From: David Colombo <seaquestor at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



Hi Joe,
This looks great! Is the kort designed to fit the Minn Kota prop I sent you? I like the thru bolt detail and the 2 piece collar. When will you have a file I can send to a cnc machine?


Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
http://www.seaquestor.com/




On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

Psubbers,
>
>I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
>
>Some assumptions, this is drawn for?11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that?it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
>
>I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M,?required to Jon for download?over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
>
>Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
>
>Joe
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 08:46:19 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 05:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <07811C3B-0CA4-498D-96D4-FD37682D9C3A@yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383337839.19111.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383349193.49907.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <BC09B6E2-2B2E-4E67-BAD4-8FBAA1F1413F@yahoo.com>
 <07811C3B-0CA4-498D-96D4-FD37682D9C3A@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383396379.8286.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
?
In watching this I wondered what is nore difficult for the pour, large or small parts?
I like this process and will keep it in the back of my mind for other things, but not an airfoil.
?
?
Joe


________________________________
From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



Joe,
Here&apos;s a video on lost foam casting with aluminium in case?
anyone&apos;s ?not familiar with it.
The end product in this video looks a bit rough, but in our case
Imperfections could be filled in with bog & painted over.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYVQ8ypHss&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9bYVQ8ypHss
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 2/11/2013, at 9:15 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:


Following it now Joe, thanks.
I would still cast ?the nozzle out of aluminium & make a jig for welding the?
struts & motor clamp if I were mass producing them.
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 2/11/2013, at 12:39 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:


Alan,
>?
>Added an exploded view, another builder had some questions as well.
>?
>Joe
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 4:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
>
>
>
>Looks good Joe.
>Is there an exploded view available?
>Alan
<Exploded.jpg>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov  2 10:27:34 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 10:27:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <1383395845.69924.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383329617.7427.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAHHFyEEwE6sBe_uFPEVh6JVa=oYuLK2KeFFZPZ-sDP-CB-_HLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383395845.69924.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0A5EECE315ED3-112C-32269@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>


Joe,

Are you familiar with hackerspace groups?  Almost all metropolitan areas have at least one.  It's a group of tinkerers, innovators and other assorted nerds who get together to share ideas, equipment, and projects.  The one where I live (Columbia, Missouri) was meeting at one of the member's home shop until they recently rented space in a strip industrial area.  

Some equipment is donated or loaned, some purchased by the group, and some made by the group.  In addition to the more common shop equipment this one has a CNC machine, and the group is currently building a 3D scanner.  I think they also have a 3D printer or two.  The members include several engineers, engineering professors, and computer programmers.  Here's a link to search for what might be available in your area:  http://www.meetup.com/find/?keywords=hack&radius=50&userFreeform=Miami%2C+Florida%2C+USA&mcId=c33101&sort=recommended&eventFilter=mysugg

Jim




-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 2, 2013 7:38 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly



David,
 
Yes, from your drawing as it was the best clue I had as to dimensions. Minn Kota has been very careful about what is in the public domain.
 
As for the fin, I'm considering only the engine mount series of motors that lacks this fin. Also, there are a number of parts suppliers out there with everything from armatures to housings and more, so a single motor purchase as a guide and the rest scratch built seems quite viable.
 
I'm also a fan of CNC (convenient, neat, & costly), so I'm watching carefully as home shop capability continues to rise and prices fall.
 
Joe




From: David Colombo <seaquestor at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly




Hi Joe,
This looks great! Is the kort designed to fit the Minn Kota prop I sent you? I like the thru bolt detail and the 2 piece collar. When will you have a file I can send to a cnc machine?



Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
http://www.seaquestor.com/





On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:






Psubbers,
 
I have finalized the design of the Kort Nozzle assembly for a Minn Kota 101 as per the dimensions provided me by another builder. There are a few detail pictures on my project page. http://www.psubs.org/projects/1371101163/msvalvinjr./
 
Some assumptions, this is drawn for 11 3/8&apos; dia square tip prop, 3 7/8" body, again with dimensions provided. It requires a concentric attach ring as you see here in SS in the style of a propeller shaft anode. The beauty of that is that it allows fore and aft adjustment as required.
 
I will provide the CAD files and 2d drawings with B.O.M, required to Jon for download over the next week or so for whatever process a builder chooses. The nozzle can be scaled to accommodate other prop and body dimensions as required.
 
Doing these little projects will help me tremendously when my time comes to build.
 
Joe
 
 





_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov  2 15:06:21 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 15:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Subs on NOAA
Message-ID: <8D0A615C087D72E-112C-340E8@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>


Couple of links from NOAA to enjoy.  The first is the PC-1204 (Clelia) that is now on display at the Atlanta Aquarium.  The second one has narrative and pics on various submersibles.  Lots of other stuff to see on this website if you go exploring.  -Jim
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/subs/clelia/clelia.html

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/subs/subs.html
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 17:07:03 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Subs on NOAA
In-Reply-To: <8D0A615C087D72E-112C-340E8@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1383426423.76720.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I was going to ask about Hugo Marrero, now that I see here what HBOI did with Clelia and JSL, I can very well guess. I've been down that road!<br/><br/>Joe<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  2 17:11:37 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 101 Kort Nozzle Assembly
In-Reply-To: <8D0A5EECE315ED3-112C-32269@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1383426697.90016.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Jim,<br/><br/>No I've never seen this kind of thing. I'll look it over thanks. I may need to find a space in Miami this way. <br/><br/>Joe<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sun Nov  3 11:36:03 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 11:36:03 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference
In-Reply-To: <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <C0BC2EAC-A947-4FC3-BAA6-1BEB5CE255E6@yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjnJvUhu0LjKpy=mPT8vjgngD7Htc5uAJmAw1kQOWm-L9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>


Received clips and images from Steve and have uploaded a new video of 
the 2013 dive activities.  See http://www.psubs.org

Photos will be uploaded soon.



From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  3 14:26:31 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 11:26:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference
In-Reply-To: <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>
References: <C0BC2EAC-A947-4FC3-BAA6-1BEB5CE255E6@yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjnJvUhu0LjKpy=mPT8vjgngD7Htc5uAJmAw1kQOWm-L9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1383506791.84330.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks Jon,
I'm glad you put in the clip of Cliff sitting on the bottom in his R300, in the operations video.
That was a vivid memory. I could hear him from 5-10 ft away yelling out through his dome, "this is fantastic".
I didn't realize you could communicate with divers like that.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2013 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference
 


Received clips and images from Steve and have uploaded a new video of 
the 2013 dive activities.? See http://www.psubs.org

Photos will be uploaded soon.



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  3 15:39:50 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 12:39:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference
In-Reply-To: <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>
References: <C0BC2EAC-A947-4FC3-BAA6-1BEB5CE255E6@yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjnJvUhu0LjKpy=mPT8vjgngD7Htc5uAJmAw1kQOWm-L9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1383511190.6247.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Fabulous editing!!
?
Nice touch?on the end credits and sound effects.
?
Joe


________________________________
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2013 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference



Received clips and images from Steve and have uploaded a new video of 
the 2013 dive activities.? See http://www.psubs.org/

Photos will be uploaded soon. 



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sun Nov  3 17:45:22 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 17:45:22 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference
In-Reply-To: <1383506791.84330.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <C0BC2EAC-A947-4FC3-BAA6-1BEB5CE255E6@yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjnJvUhu0LjKpy=mPT8vjgngD7Htc5uAJmAw1kQOWm-L9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52767B73.9010709@psubs.org>
 <1383506791.84330.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5276D202.9000405@psubs.org>


I can't get enough of looking at that beautiful blue water.


From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  5 02:08:04 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:08:04 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed
	Sculptures
In-Reply-To: <B548A5E9333645B2B8B54042CA5A440E@PhillPC>
References: <B548A5E9333645B2B8B54042CA5A440E@PhillPC>
Message-ID: <2078B536-FF18-42A6-95D9-56B71D1A84A1@yahoo.com>

Thanks for the link Phil,
I did a bit of Googling on it. It's great the way he's still pushing the boundaries 
despite having such a successful career.
3D art will really take off & this will help with it's acceptance.
Looks like he's having fun.
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 29/10/2013, at 3:02 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:

> All:
> Re the Bruce Beasley thread a while ago . . here's up Bruce is currently doing.
> Phil Nuytten
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Nuytco Research Ltd.
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 8:54 AM
> To: phil at philnuytten.com
> Subject: FW: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed Sculptures
> 
> 
> 
> Nuytco Research Ltd.
> 216 East Esplanade
> North Vancouver, BC
> Canada V7L 1A3
> ph. (604) 980-6262
> fax (604) 980-6236
> www.nuytco.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Beasley [mailto:bruce at brucebeasley.com]
> Sent: November-03-13 3:33 PM
> To: pbmeadows at att.net
> Subject: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed Sculptures
> 
> Exhibitioin 
> <beasley_exhibit_email.pdf>
> <Untitled attachment 00025.txt>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Thu Nov  7 14:18:00 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:18:00 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
Message-ID: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>

I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

Rick
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From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com  Thu Nov  7 15:01:14 2013
From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:01:14 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Rick,

If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm

I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.


Best,

Alec

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

Rick
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From vbra676539 at aol.com  Thu Nov  7 15:08:33 2013
From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:08:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <8D0AA0C44E8E931-ACC-139C5@webmail-d150.sysops.aol.com>

The wood will compress and take on water. Forget that. Get some trawl floats. Nokalons should be available up in your neck of the woods. And you can always use them later.
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy




I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.
 
Rick


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

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From vbra676539 at aol.com  Thu Nov  7 15:09:11 2013
From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:09:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <8D0AA0C5B83A150-ACC-139E3@webmail-d150.sysops.aol.com>

Rick,
Yeah, what he said.
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: Smyth, Alec <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy



Hi Rick,
 
If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here:http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm
 
I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.
 
 
Best,

Alec
 

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]On Behalf Of Land N Sea
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

 


I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.

I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

 

Rick




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 15:50:45 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 12:50:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <1383857445.41317.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
If you are just concerned about the leaks rather than them crushing,
what about pressurizing them to 300psi internally in a water bath or pool.
I am not sure that because it doesn't leak from inside out it won't leak
from outside in, but it would be better than nothing & a lot less trouble
than taking them out to sea. Also if it did leak it would be easier to see
where it was leaking from.
Alan



________________________________
 From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 8:18 AM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
 


I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them 
to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able 
to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can 
push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more 
places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each 
dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would 
barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly 
negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to 
come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic 
foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may 
be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? 
X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is 
welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any 
one could comment on that.
?
Rick
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 16:12:12 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 13:12:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1383857445.41317.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <1383857445.41317.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383858732.32248.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
alternatively just fill them up with water, then pressurize them.
I had a factory job as a youngster doing exactly that with with hot water cylinders.
Really stimulating job.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
 


Rick,
If you are just concerned about the leaks rather than them crushing,
what about pressurizing them to 300psi internally in a water bath or pool.
I am not sure that because it doesn't leak from inside out it won't leak
from outside in, but it would be better than nothing & a lot less trouble
than taking them out to sea. Also if it did leak it would be easier to see
where it was leaking from.
Alan



________________________________
 From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 8:18 AM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
 


I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them 
to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able 
to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can 
push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more 
places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each 
dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would 
barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly 
negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to 
come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic 
foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may 
be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? 
X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is 
welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any 
one could comment on that.
?
Rick
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Thu Nov  7 16:37:55 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:37:55 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org>


I can't comment on the structural pros/cons but can tell you that the 
600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ years.  It bothers me as 
well since even after a good rainfall water collects there, but if 
properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem. Maybe give it some extra 
coats in that area.

Jon


On 11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:
>
> I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that 
> is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was 
> wondering if any one could comment on that.
> Rick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Thu Nov  7 17:08:40 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 14:08:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1383862120.35705.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
two pieces of pine 4by4, 5 feet long will give you about 30lbs buoyancy.?
Hank



On Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:38:48 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

I can't comment on the structural pros/cons but can tell you that
      the 600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ years.? It
      bothers me as well since even after a good rainfall water collects
      there, but if properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem.?
      Maybe give it some extra coats in that area.

Jon



On 11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:


> 
>I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that. 
>
>Rick   
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles   


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 17:18:32 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 17:18:32 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <B8D973B6-A059-4D7E-B738-633395841893@yahoo.com>

Maybe Vance can weigh in on this but, I suspect that those webs serve to evenly distribute shock loads for deck handling.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> I can't comment on the structural pros/cons but can tell you that the 600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ years.  It bothers me as well since even after a good rainfall water collects there, but if properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem.  Maybe give it some extra coats in that area.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> On 11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:
>> 
>> I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery             pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.
>>  
>> Rick
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From Vbra676539 at AOL.com  Thu Nov  7 17:34:07 2013
From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 17:34:07 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <B8D973B6-A059-4D7E-B738-633395841893@yahoo.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org> <B8D973B6-A059-4D7E-B738-633395841893@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <895412B8-A925-4AB9-92E7-5015FACDB4FF@AOL.com>

That would be my guess, too.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 7, 2013, at 5:18 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Maybe Vance can weigh in on this but, I suspect that those webs serve to evenly distribute shock loads for deck handling.
> 
> Joe
> 
> Sent from my overpriced 
> iPhone
> 
> On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I can't comment on the structural pros/cons but can tell you that the 600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ years.  It bothers me as well since even after a good rainfall water collects there, but if properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem.  Maybe give it some extra coats in that area.
>> 
>> Jon
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:
>>> 
>>> I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.
>>>  
>>> Rick
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Thu Nov  7 18:09:14 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 13:09:14 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <895412B8-A925-4AB9-92E7-5015FACDB4FF@AOL.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org> <B8D973B6-A059-4D7E-B738-633395841893@yahoo.com>
 <895412B8-A925-4AB9-92E7-5015FACDB4FF@AOL.com>
Message-ID: <606AB6A5AB5D49B1AF8907FC49A9A2A5@LandNSeaPC>

Thanks guy?s,

Yeh, I expected the wood to compress a bit but only a small amount which I don?t think is critical in this particular application and I have a bunch of it laying around the shop. If Hank?s right then I think I will try that as they are easy to fine tune with a saw, I just didn?t want to have to strap a bundle of them on. 
As far as the webbing between the pods and hull go, I hadn?t thought about the dry weight loading factor which is a good point. I had planned on welding a piece of ss round stock between the two ends opposite the drop weight ss round stock which would prevent them from wanting to flex in either direction but there would still be a pretty good point load where the pipes meet the hull when the boats out of the water. I just hate having to put all that heat into the two pressure hulls if I didn?t have to plus I would eliminate a water trap which is all ways a good thing. Thanks guy?s

Rick

From: Vance Bradley 
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 12:34 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

That would be my guess, too.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 7, 2013, at 5:18 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:


  Maybe Vance can weigh in on this but, I suspect that those webs serve to evenly distribute shock loads for deck handling.

  Joe

  Sent from my overpriced  
  iPhone

  On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:



    I can't comment on the structural pros/cons but can tell you that the 600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ years.  It bothers me as well since even after a good rainfall water collects there, but if properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem.  Maybe give it some extra coats in that area.

    Jon


    On 11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:


      I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

      Rick

       

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


    _______________________________________________
    Personal_Submersibles mailing list
    Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
    http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Thu Nov  7 18:17:39 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:17:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <606AB6A5AB5D49B1AF8907FC49A9A2A5@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <527C0833.8060007@psubs.org> <B8D973B6-A059-4D7E-B738-633395841893@yahoo.com>
 <895412B8-A925-4AB9-92E7-5015FACDB4FF@AOL.com>
 <606AB6A5AB5D49B1AF8907FC49A9A2A5@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <1383866259.52227.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
I agree the wood will be fine, it will take on water but not enough in one hr to hurt? your test.? I just went to my pocket ref to look up wood density.? Pine is around 25lb per cu ft.? I assume that's very dry wood.
Hank



On Thursday, November 7, 2013 4:09:14 PM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
  
Thanks guy?s, 

Yeh, I expected the wood to compress a bit but only a small amount which I 
don?t think is critical in this particular application and I have a bunch of it 
laying around the shop. If Hank?s right then I think I will try that as they are 
easy to fine tune with a saw, I just didn?t want to have to strap a bundle of 
them on.  
As far as the webbing between the pods and hull go, I hadn?t thought about 
the dry weight loading factor which is a good point. I had planned on welding a 
piece of ss round stock between the two ends opposite the drop weight ss round 
stock which would prevent them from wanting to flex in either direction but 
there would still be a pretty good point load where the pipes meet the hull when 
the boats out of the water. I just hate having to put all that heat into the two 
pressure hulls if I didn?t have to plus I would eliminate a water trap which is 
all ways a good thing. Thanks guy?s 

Rick 

From: Vance Bradley  
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 12:34 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

That would be my guess, too. 
Vance 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Nov 7, 2013, at 5:18 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> 
wrote:

  
Maybe Vance can weigh in on this but, I suspect that those webs serve to  evenly distribute shock loads for deck handling. 
>
>Joe
>
>Sent from my overpriced? 
>iPhone 
>
>On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
>>I can't comment on the structural pros/cons 
    but can tell you that the 600 plate is still in fine condition after 30+ 
    years.? It bothers me as well since even after a good rainfall water 
    collects there, but if properly painted it shouldn't be a big problem.? 
    Maybe give it some extra coats in that area.
>>
>>Jon
>>
>>
>>On 
    11/7/2013 2:18 PM, Land N Sea wrote:
>> 
>>
>>>
>>>I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate  that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was  wondering if any one could comment on that. 
>>>
>>>Rick
>>> 
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
>> 
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles  mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles  mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 

________________________________

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 22:01:11 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 19:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
Message-ID: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Joe,
I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 23:32:30 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:32:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alan,<br/><br/>Are you here somewhere looking over my shoulder? :)<br/><br/>Here I am in the parking lot waiting to pick up my wife, perusing images of "interlocking joints" for ABS plastic, when your email came came through!<br/><br/>I like the Makerbot I think it's pretty neat!<br/><br/>Joe<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 23:37:34 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:37:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383885454.80553.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

So what's your wife buying you for Christmas??
Alan


________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 


Alan,

Are you here somewhere looking over my shoulder? :)

Here I am in the parking lot waiting to pick up my wife, perusing images of "interlocking joints" for ABS plastic, when your email came came through!

I like the Makerbot I think it's pretty neat!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 



________________________________
 From:  Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>; 
To:  psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
Subject:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle 
Sent:  Fri, Nov 8, 2013 3:01:11 AM 


Joe,
I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  7 23:41:58 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:41:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383885454.80553.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383885718.90644.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Something to install in the house I'm sure:)<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Fri Nov  8 00:03:36 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 00:03:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0AA570435CEA1-D04-19062@webmail-vd003.sysops.aol.com>


Joe,

I had thought mortise and tenon to join the Kort sections together.  By M&T I mean of whatever shape you want, but most likely round such as in the Revell kits we used to build.

Also, it seems good to run guards from the Kort to the other end of the motor housing to prevent it getting caught on anything or sucking things into the prop.

Keep plugging,
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle




Alan,

Are you here somewhere looking over my shoulder? :)

Here I am in the parking lot waiting to pick up my wife, perusing images of "interlocking joints" for ABS plastic, when your email came came through!

I like the Makerbot I think it's pretty neat!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

            
                
                    
                    
                        
                            
                                                            From:                                                        Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>;                            
                                                            To:                                                        psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;                                                                                                     
                                                            Subject:                                                        [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle                            
                                                            Sent:                                                        Fri, Nov 8, 2013 3:01:11 AM                            
                        
                            
                            
                                
                                    
                                        


Joe,




I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan






                                    
                                
                            
                    
                
            

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 06:24:02 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 06:24:02 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Alan,

I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar
with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job
controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a
sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction
and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids.
I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you
print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is
going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we
printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin
itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.

Thanks,

Alec


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Joe,
> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness &
> fill it with
> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow
> for contractions
> in the resin while setting.
> Maybe under $30- in materials.
> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think
> this idea still
> holds a lot of promise.
> Regards Alan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  8 07:27:24 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 04:27:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <8D0AA570435CEA1-D04-19062@webmail-vd003.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1383885150.65285.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0AA570435CEA1-D04-19062@webmail-vd003.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1383913644.73731.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Jim,
?
Take a close look at the link provided by Alan. At first glance, that looks to me like the very components that make up the commercial fully assembled (minus the enclosure)?offerings out there. I see a 3d print capability in my future then! 
?
I see now also?home shop CNC (for a decent machine) is around 6K for bare bones. This has to come down some more.
?
I think my wife's prediction of her mad scientist husband sealed up in his laboratory just may come true! :)
?
Joe
?


________________________________
From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle



Joe,
?
I had thought mortise and tenon to join the Kort sections together.? By M&T I mean of whatever shape you want, but most likely round such as in the Revell kits we used to build.
?
Also, it seems good to run guards from the Kort to the other end of the motor housing to prevent it getting caught on anything or sucking things into the prop.
?
Keep plugging,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle


Alan,

Are you here somewhere looking over my shoulder? :)

Here I am in the parking lot waiting to pick up my wife, perusing images of "interlocking joints" for ABS plastic, when your email came came through!

I like the Makerbot I think it's pretty neat!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 



________________________________
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>; 
To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle 
Sent: Fri, Nov 8, 2013 3:01:11 AM 


Joe, 
I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan

 
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  8 07:30:50 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 04:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383913850.2833.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alec,
?
What about a shape like that scooter Kort where the foil itself is a thin membrane?supported by perpendicular vanes around the outside circumference, would a shape like that circumvent the void problem?
?
Joe


________________________________
From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle



Hi Alan, 

I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.

Thanks,

Alec?



On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

Joe, 
>I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>
>The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>in the resin while setting.
>Maybe under $30- in materials.
>I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>holds a lot of promise.
>Regards Alan
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 08:06:00 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 08:06:00 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383913850.2833.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383913850.2833.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABECYQ6aA5mgmLpWJbgoH26=cAFoiFXB8_oSnCnNHLBaYbGZvA@mail.gmail.com>

Sure, that would be printed solid. The only thing is, at least with my
home-built printer, the result is decidedly not as stong as a solid plastic
that was molded or machined.

Best,

Alec


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alec,
>
> What about a shape like that scooter Kort where the foil itself is a thin
> membrane supported by perpendicular vanes around the outside circumference,
> would a shape like that circumvent the void problem?
>
> Joe
>
>   *From:* Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 6:24 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>
>  Hi Alan,
>
> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar
> with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job
> controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a
> sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction
> and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
> underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids.
> I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you
> print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is
> going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we
> printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin
> itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alec
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>    Joe,
>   I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness &
> fill it with
> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow
> for contractions
> in the resin while setting.
> Maybe under $30- in materials.
> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think
> this idea still
> holds a lot of promise.
> Regards Alan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  8 14:10:41 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 08:10:41 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>

Alec / Joe,
I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
about this application & casting materials.
You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
grip to the printed shell.
Cheers Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alec 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Joe,
>> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>> in the resin while setting.
>> Maybe under $30- in materials.
>> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>> holds a lot of promise.
>> Regards Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  8 16:12:52 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 13:12:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Alec / Joe,
these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
?may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html

The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
would probably melt the printed shell.
You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
the shell.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 


Alec / Joe,
I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
about this application & casting materials.
You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin?
pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
grip to the printed shell.
Cheers Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Alan,
>
>
>I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Alec?
>
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Joe,
>>I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>
>>The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>in the resin while setting.
>>Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>holds a lot of promise.
>>Regards Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com  Fri Nov  8 16:21:15 2013
From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 21:21:15 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>,
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>

That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.



On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:

Alec / Joe,
these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
 may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
would probably melt the printed shell.
You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
the shell.
Alan

________________________________
From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alec / Joe,
I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
about this application & casting materials.
You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin
pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
grip to the printed shell.
Cheers Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com<mailto:alecsmyth at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Alan,

I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.

Thanks,

Alec


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Joe,
I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 16:23:46 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 16:23:46 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
Message-ID: <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>

Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.



> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
> 
> That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
>>  may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
>> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>> The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
>> & harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
>> would probably melt the printed shell.
>> You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
>> the shell.
>> Alan
>> 
>> From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
>> about this application & casting materials.
>> You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
>> pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
>> grip to the printed shell.
>> Cheers Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Alan,
>>> 
>>> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds  those parts together.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Alec 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Joe,
>>> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>> in the resin while setting.
>>> Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>> holds a lot of promise.
>>> Regards Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  8 19:53:05 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 19:53:05 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A29FDFEA-8D92-4BC7-B5BE-65216C6E15A2@yahoo.com>

I'm intrigued with this whole business of 3d printing not just for the nozzle and struts, but also for a garage deployed ROV I have in mind. 

Not to mention scale models of full size concepts to try on for fit!


Joe


Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
> 
>> That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Alec / Joe,
>>> these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
>>>  may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
>>> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>>> The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
>>> & harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
>>> would probably melt the printed shell.
>>> You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
>>> the shell.
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>>> 
>>> Alec / Joe,
>>> I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
>>> about this application & casting materials.
>>> You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
>>> pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
>>> grip to the printed shell.
>>> Cheers Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>> 
>>>> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Alec 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Joe,
>>>> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>>> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>>> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>>> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>>> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>>> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>>> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>>> in the resin while setting.
>>>> Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>>> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>>> holds a lot of promise.
>>>> Regards Alan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  9 00:03:47 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 21:03:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Alec,
It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the?
form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow
for a thick mix, but the struts might not.
A bit of experimentation would be required.
If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills it,
& be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram rod
them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod.?
One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad polyester)
& so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it damaging the outer shell.?
Alan


________________________________
 From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 


Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.




On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:


That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.




On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:


Alec / Joe,
>these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
>?may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
>http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>
>The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
>& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
>would probably melt the printed shell.
>You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
>the shell.
>Alan
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>
>
>
>Alec / Joe,
>I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
>about this application & casting materials.
>You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin?
>pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
>grip to the printed shell.
>Cheers Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hi Alan, 
>>
>>
>>I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alec?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Joe, 
>>>I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>>There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>>http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>>
>>>The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>>The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>>the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>>My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>>a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>>in the resin while setting.
>>>Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>>I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>>holds a lot of promise.
>>>Regards Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 01:25:03 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 22:25:03 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.  The 551 float is $10.80
ea., less 10% per carton of 18.  The 364 float is $6.00 ea., less 10% per
carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough for 18 or 72.

David Colombo
On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

>  Hi Rick,
>
>
>
> If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d
> recommend fishing floats you can get here:
> http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm
>
>
>
> I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as
> emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Land N Sea
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
>
>
>
> I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them
> to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be
> able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that
> I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a
> couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh
> in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I
> was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I
> could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and
> retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of
> positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could
> strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question
> but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea
> water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
>
> I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is
> welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if
> any one could comment on that.
>
>
>
> Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Sat Nov  9 05:02:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 09 Nov 2013 10:02 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com> 
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com> 
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com> 
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com> 
 <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1Vf5Nw-0U5Cjo0@fwd26.t-online.de>

Hi, just to show you the possibilities: 
The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the four hoses
goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was with it down to 260 feet.

 http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg

The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot melted. 

vbr Carsten


"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb: 
Hi Alec,
It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the

form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow
for a thick mix, but the struts might not.
A bit of experimentation would be required.
If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it
fills it,
& be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
rod
them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod. 
One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
polyester)
& so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
damaging the outer shell. 
Alan




From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle



Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
resin.





On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com>
wrote:


That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You
can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like
doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them
together, and wipe off the excess.





On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
wrote:


Alec / Joe,
these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
 may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html

The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
thicker
& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using
polyester resin as it
would probably melt the printed shell.
You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser
mixtures down in to
the shell.
Alan




From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle



Alec / Joe,
I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try &
find out a bit more
about this application & casting materials.
You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air
for the resin 
pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the
resin more
grip to the printed shell.
Cheers Alan





Sent from my iPad

On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Alan, 


I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little
familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on
each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like
the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with
that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full
of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this
solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural
fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's
solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once
those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that
holds those parts together.


Thanks,

Alec 



On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
wrote:

Joe, 
I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to
print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue
together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness &
fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow
for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think
this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan





_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov  9 08:46:10 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 08:46:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
 <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0AB692E36E500-1798-28109@webmail-d205.sysops.aol.com>


Alan et al,

I've used a disposable syringe to inject resin into spaces where pouring was impractical or there was a risk of air voids.  The thickening agent (when needed) was very short strand or powdered fiberglass.  Going a little light on the catalyst cuts down on the heat generated and gives you more working time.  The other thing I've used is two-part, expansive foam injection.  It was very good for supporting a load, but I don't know what it would have been like under pressure at depth.

Since you're taking about injecting a thermosetting resin into a thermoplastic item that's going to help trap the heat, I'm a little leery that you could get some softening and distortion.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 8, 2013 11:07 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle



Hi Alec,
It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the 
form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow
for a thick mix, but the struts might not.
A bit of experimentation would be required.
If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills it,
& be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram rod
them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod. 
One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad polyester)
& so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it damaging the outer shell. 
Alan


  
 
 
 
   From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
  
 



Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.






On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:






That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.






On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:




Alec / Joe,
these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
 may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html

The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
would probably melt the printed shell.
You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
the shell.
Alan




From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle




Alec / Joe,
I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
about this application & casting materials.
You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
grip to the printed shell.
Cheers Alan





Sent from my iPad


On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:



Hi Alan,


I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.


Thanks,

Alec 




On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James<alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:



Joe,




I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
in the resin while setting.
Maybe under $30- in materials.
I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
holds a lot of promise.
Regards Alan







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  9 10:18:53 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 04:18:53 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <8D0AB692E36E500-1798-28109@webmail-d205.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
 <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0AB692E36E500-1798-28109@webmail-d205.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <721E22D1-2195-4823-B302-44B7142C7BD5@yahoo.com>

Hi Jim,
yes, the heat generated is dependant on the setting speed & the amount of resin
or thickness of the cast.
In a cold environment with a small amount of catalyst you could slow the curing
down considerably. Also the more reinforcement you can add, the less heat generated.
I used to cast sections about 1"x8" x12" with crystal clear polyester casting resin.
They would crack if you didn't slow the process down to several hours.
I have lost mixes due to exothermic run-aways in the mixing containers.
They can get very hot & as you say, melt plastic.
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 10/11/2013, at 2:46 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:

> Alan et al,
>  
> I've used a disposable syringe to inject resin into spaces where pouring was impractical or there was a risk of air voids.  The thickening agent (when needed) was very short strand or powdered fiberglass.  Going a little light on the catalyst cuts down on the heat generated and gives you more working time.  The other thing I've used is two-part, expansive foam injection.  It was very good for supporting a load, but I don't know what it would have been like under pressure at depth.
>  
> Since you're taking about injecting a thermosetting resin into a thermoplastic item that's going to help trap the heat, I'm a little leery that you could get some softening and distortion.
>  
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 8, 2013 11:07 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Hi Alec,
> It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the 
> form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow
> for a thick mix, but the struts might not.
> A bit of experimentation would be required.
> If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills it,
> & be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram rod
> them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod. 
> One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad polyester)
> & so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it damaging the outer shell. 
> Alan
> 
> From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
>>  may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
>> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>> The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
>> & harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
>> would probably melt the printed shell.
>> You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
>> the shell.
>> Alan
>> 
>> From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
>> about this application & casting materials.
>> You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
>> pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
>> grip to the printed shell.
>> Cheers Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Alan,
>>> 
>>> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Alec 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Joe,
>>> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>> in the resin while setting.
>>> Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>> holds a lot of promise.
>>> Regards Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  9 10:21:43 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 04:21:43 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1Vf5Nw-0U5Cjo0@fwd26.t-online.de>
References: <1383879671.11590.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ54BxJHd9TYQNdcBuP92CLxHKxy5fWv+eecduWPGK4-=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B694B73B-AA67-4B98-90B7-714A3D3967DA@yahoo.com>
 <1383945172.17065.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <41757319-9B81-4F88-B2FE-2C57F2B11D3D@covisint.com>
 <C229DDB4-429F-45C4-B7A4-E8754F255341@gmail.com>
 <1383973427.12136.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vf5Nw-0U5Cjo0@fwd26.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <54CDA448-921C-4EEE-9023-2D0C6C03E62A@yahoo.com>

Good photo Carsten.
That part looks to be a critical component.
They must have a lot of confidence in it's strength.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 9/11/2013, at 11:02 PM, " " <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:

> Hi, just to show you the possibilities: 
> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the four hoses goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was with it down to 260 feet.
> 
>  http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
> 
> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot melted. 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:
> Hi Alec,
> It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the 
> form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow
> for a thick mix, but the struts might not.
> A bit of experimentation would be required.
> If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills it,
> & be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram rod
> them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod. 
> One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad polyester)
> & so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it damaging the outer shell. 
> Alan
> 
> From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the excess.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"
>>  may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.
>> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>> The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker
>> & harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester resin as it
>> would probably melt the printed shell.
>> You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures down in to
>> the shell.
>> Alan
>> 
>> From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alec / Joe,
>> I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find out a bit more
>> about this application & casting materials.
>> You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for the resin 
>> pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the resin more
>> grip to the printed shell.
>> Cheers Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Alan,
>>> 
>>> I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Alec 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Joe,
>>> I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.
>>> There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.
>>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>>> The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.
>>> The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print
>>> the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.
>>> My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness & fill it with
>>> a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for contractions
>>> in the resin while setting.
>>> Maybe under $30- in materials.
>>> I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this idea still
>>> holds a lot of promise.
>>> Regards Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From emile at airesearch.nl  Sat Nov  9 11:17:14 2013
From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 17:17:14 +0100
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1Vf5Nw-0U5Cjo0@fwd26.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAZwsRHrMgVEqOdYPpMxKVucKAAAAQAAAAuuMc4NuXAUGOsMbikbhebgEAAAAA@airesearch.nl>

The prototype was printed. I machined the final version from solid POM
/DELRIN for better reliability

 

A Kort nozzle on the other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine
from solid..

 

Emile

 

  _____  

Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
Verzonden: zaterdag 9 november 2013 11:02
Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

 

Hi, just to show you the possibilities: 
The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the four hoses goes
in - is a 3D print out. The diver was with it down to 260 feet.

 
http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001
.jpg

The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot melted. 

vbr Carsten


"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb: 

Hi Alec,

It would be a matter of putting as much fiber in with the resin that the 

form would enable. With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would allow

for a thick mix, but the struts might not.

A bit of experimentation would be required.

If you back lit the printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it
fills it,

& be aware of any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram rod

them down with a flexible piece of plastic rod. 

One concern is that epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad polyester)

& so the shell might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
damaging the outer shell. 

Alan

 

  _____  

From: Private <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

 

Sorry, the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the resin.

 


On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

That's stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural fiberglass". You can't
pour it. However, if you made the nozzle in two halves like doughnut-shaped
dog bowls, you could fill them both up, put them together, and wipe off the
excess.

 


On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

Alec / Joe,

these products "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand glass fibers"

 may be OK, in combination with epoxy resin.

http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html

The more you can add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes thicker

& harder to pour in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
resin as it

would probably melt the printed shell.

You may be able to use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
down in to

the shell.

Alan

 


  _____  


From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

 

Alec / Joe,

I will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business, and try & find
out a bit more

about this application & casting materials.

You would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to vent air for
the resin 

pouring process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the mould to give the
resin more

grip to the printed shell.

Cheers Alan

 

 


Sent from my iPad


On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Alan, 

 

I like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a little familiar
with them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each job
controls the "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material that is a
sort of cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the direction
and density of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
underwater application, is that the resulting piece is full of air voids.
I'd always assumed I would print something like this solid. However, if you
print it hollow and fill it with structural fiberglass, the end result is
going to be a lot stronger than if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we
printed by parts but filled it up once those parts are assembled, the resin
itself could be the "glue" that holds those parts together.

 

Thanks,


Alec 

 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
wrote:

Joe, 

I was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort nozzle.

There are printer kits for $900- that would do the job.

http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/

The ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an ounce.

The $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough to print

the nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections & glue together.

My idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall thickness &
fill it with

a fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours to allow for
contractions

in the resin while setting.

Maybe under $30- in materials.

I am not at the point where I need this & neither are you, but I think this
idea still

holds a lot of promise.

Regards Alan

 

 


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org

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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Sat Nov  9 12:16:57 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 07:16:57 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>

Hi David,

any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy?

Rick

From: David Colombo 
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.  The 551 float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.  The 364 float is $6.00 ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough for 18 or 72. 

David Colombo

On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

  Hi Rick,



  If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm



  I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.





  Best,


  Alec



  From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
  Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
  To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
  Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy



  I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.

  I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.



  Rick


  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Sat Nov  9 12:42:24 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 09:42:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Hi Rick,
I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.? I think they give 35lb buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go to 600 ft.? Test one first.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
  
Hi David, 

any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy? 

Rick 

From: David Colombo  
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.? The 551 
float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.? The 364 float is $6.00 
ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough 
for 18 or 72.  
David Colombo 
On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

Hi  Rick, 
>? 
>If  you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend  fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm 
>? 
>I  guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency  release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever. 
>? 
>? 
>Best, 
>
>Alec 
>? 
>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
>Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18  PM
>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy 
>? 
>I was  thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the  hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get  them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can  push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of  more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS.  each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they  would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just  slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the  case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have  any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve  that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot  buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and  start
 testing. 
>I also  mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to  the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one  could comment on that. 
>? 
>Rick
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles 
  mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> 

________________________________

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov  9 18:08:28 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 18:08:28 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <527EC06C.5040806@psubs.org>


That's pretty close...I calculated 524 feet with 125psi internal and 
suspect you could push it to 600 feet.  But that would be the limit so 
you'd want to build in a safety factor or risk failure at depth.


On 11/9/2013 12:42 PM, hank pronk wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.  I think they give 35lb 
> buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go 
> to 600 ft.  Test one first.
> Hank
>
>
> On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, Land N Sea 
> <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> Hi David,
> any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy?
> Rick
> *From:* David Colombo <mailto:seaquestor at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
> <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
> Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.  The 551 float is 
> $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18. The 364 float is $6.00 ea., 
> less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not 
> enough for 18 or 72.
> David Colombo
> On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com 
> <mailto:Alec.Smyth at covisint.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Rick,
>     If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant
>     depths, I'd recommend fishing floats you can get here:
>     http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm
>     I guarantee you'll find uses for them afterwards, whether it's as
>     emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.
>     Best,
>
>     Alec
>     *From:*Personal_Submersibles
>     [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org
>     <mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org>] *On Behalf Of
>     *Land N Sea
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
>     *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>     <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>     *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
>     I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600' before I
>     weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage
>     I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents
>     per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the
>     batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for
>     leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS.
>     each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was
>     hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so
>     that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of
>     launching and retrieving but that's not the case. I need to come
>     up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don't have any
>     syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4" X 4", on them to
>     achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen
>     to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4" X 4" in sea water? If not
>     I'll head down to the ocean and start testing.
>     I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate
>     that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and
>     was wondering if any one could comment on that.
>     Rick
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>     Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>     <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>     http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Sat Nov  9 18:49:16 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 15:49:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <527EC06C.5040806@psubs.org>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <527EC06C.5040806@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1384040956.49938.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I am sure you could push the pressure to 150psi.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 4:08:28 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

That's pretty close...I calculated 524 feet with 125psi internal
      and suspect you could push it to 600 feet.? But that would be the
      limit so you'd want to build in a safety factor or risk failure at
      depth.


On 11/9/2013 12:42 PM, hank pronk wrote:
 
Hi Rick, 
>I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.? I think they give 35lb buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go to 600 ft.? Test one first. 
>Hank 
>
>
>
>On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, Land N Sea mailto:landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net wrote:
>  
>Hi David, 
>
>any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy? 
>
>Rick 
>
>
>From: David Colombo  
>Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM 
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion  
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy    
>
>  
>Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.? The 551 float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.? The 364 float is $6.00 ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough for 18 or 72.  
>David Colombo 
>On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Rick, 
>>? 
>>If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm 
>>? 
>>I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever. 
>>? 
>>? 
>>Best, 
>>
>>Alec 
>>? 
>>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
>>Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy   
>>
>>I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.  
>>I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.  
>>?  
>>Rick      
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>  
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>      
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
>
>     
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles   


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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 18:52:23 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (seaquestor at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 15:52:23 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
Message-ID: <c6ipnn62ugi28oc0r57lkj8g.1384041143934@email.android.com>

Hi rick, check the link that Alec gave and will tell you weights and buoyancy for each float type.

Best Regards,
David Colombo
SeaQuestor Industries

804 College Ave.
Santa Rosa, CA.
707.536.1424






Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Sat Nov  9 21:13:03 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:13:03 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D9A911B90D0840CA9F2D938279CB7977@LandNSeaPC>

I thought I had some lengths of 4? X 4? laying around but was wrong so I used some 2? X 4??s which I had plenty of and it took 25 feet of  2? X 4? lumber to make it neutral which looks like about 48.46 cu in of wood buoy 1 lb after the lead is submerged as well as the displacement of the wood. I am sure I will loose some buoyancy from the wood at depth but not enough to make it a hassle to haul back in by hand. If the pod floods then it?s plan B, using some lift bags in stages to get her back. I?ll let ya all know how they tested out.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick,
I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.  I think they give 35lb buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go to 600 ft.  Test one first.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

Hi David,

any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy?

Rick

From: David Colombo 
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.  The 551 float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.  The 364 float is $6.00 ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough for 18 or 72. 
David Colombo
On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

  Hi Rick,

  If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm

  I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.


  Best,

  Alec

  From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
  Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
  To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
  Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

  I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
  I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

  Rick

  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






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From freepetesub at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  9 22:04:22 2013
From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 19:04:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAZwsRHrMgVEqOdYPpMxKVucKAAAAQAAAAuuMc4NuXAUGOsMbikbhebgEAAAAA@airesearch.nl>
Message-ID: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that  the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013, 8:17 AM
 
 
 
 
  
  
 
 E-Mail Software 6.0
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 The
 prototype was printed.
 I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
 better reliability 
 
 
 ? 
 
 A
 Kort nozzle on the
 other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
 solid.. 
 
 
 ? 
 
 Emile
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Van:
 Personal_Submersibles
 [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
 
 Verzonden:
 zaterdag 9 november
 2013 11:02
 
 Aan: Personal
 Submersibles General
 Discussion
 
 Onderwerp: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
 Kort Nozzle 
 
 
 
  ? 
 
 Hi, just
 to show you the possibilities:?
 
 The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
 four?hoses
 goes?in - is a?3D print out.?The diver was
 with it down to
  260 feet .
 
 
 
 ?http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
 
 
 
 The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
 melted. 
 
 
 
 vbr Carsten
 
 
 
 
 
 "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 schrieb:  
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi
 Alec, 
 
 
 
 
 
 It
 would be a matter
 of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
 the? 
 
 
 
 
 
 form
 would enable.
 With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
 allow 
 
 
 
 
 
 for
 a thick mix, but
 the struts might not. 
 
 
 
 
 
 A
 bit of
 experimentation would be required. 
 
 
 
 
 
 If
 you back lit the
 printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
 it, 
 
 
 
 
 
 &
 be aware of
 any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
 rod 
 
 
 
 
 
 them
 down with a
 flexible piece of plastic rod.? 
 
 
 
 
 
 One
 concern is that
 epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
 polyester) 
 
 
 
 
 
 &
 so the shell
 might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
 damaging the outer
 shell.? 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From:
 Private
 <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
 
 To: Personal
 Submersibles General
 Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 
 Sent:
 Saturday, November 9, 2013
 10:23 AM
 
 Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST]
 Printed Kort Nozzle
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sorry,
 the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
 resin. 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 That's
 stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
 fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
 made the nozzle in two
 halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
 both up, put them
 together, and wipe off the excess. 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 wrote: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alec
 / Joe, 
 
 
 
 
 
 these
 products
 "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
 glass fibers" 
 
 
 
 
 
 ?may
 be OK, in combination
 with epoxy resin. 
 
 
 
 
 
 http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 The
 more you can
 add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
 thicker 
 
 
 
 
 
 &
 harder to pour
 in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
 resin as it 
 
 
 
 
 
 would
 probably melt
 the printed shell. 
 
 
 
 
 
 You
 may be able to
 use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
 down in to 
 
 
 
 
 
 the
 shell. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From:
 Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 
 To: Personal
 Submersibles General
 Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 
 
 Sent:
 Saturday, November 9, 2013
 8:10 AM
 
 Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST]
 Printed Kort Nozzle
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alec
 / Joe, 
 
 
 
 
 
 I
 will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
 and try & find
 out a bit more 
 
 
 
 
 
 about
 this application & casting materials. 
 
 
 
 
 
 You
 would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
 vent air for the
 resin? 
 
 
 
 
 
 pouring
 process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
 mould to give the
 resin more 
 
 
 
 
 
 grip
 to the printed shell. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Cheers
 Alan 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPad 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
 wrote: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi
 Alan,  
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I
 like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
 little familiar with
 them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
 job controls the
 "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
 that is a sort of
 cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
 direction and density
 of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
 underwater application,
 is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
 always assumed I would
 print something like this solid. However, if you print it
 hollow and fill it
 with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
 lot stronger than
 if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
 parts but filled it up
 once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
 the "glue"
 that holds those parts together. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 Thanks,
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alec? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 On
 Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 wrote: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Joe,
  
 
 
 
 I
 was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
 nozzle. 
 
 
 
 
 
 There
 are printer kits for $900- that would do the
 job. 
 
 
 
 
 
 http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 The
 ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
 ounce. 
 
 
 
 
 
 The
 $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
 to print 
 
 
 
 
 
 the
 nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
 glue together. 
 
 
 
 
 
 My
 idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
 thickness & fill
 it with 
 
 
 
 
 
 a
 fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
 to allow for
 contractions 
 
 
 
 
 
 in
 the resin while setting. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Maybe
 under $30- in materials. 
 
 
 
 
 
 I
 am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
 but I think this
 idea still 
 
 
 
 
 
 holds
 a lot of promise. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Regards
 Alan 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ?
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 
 
  Carsten Standfu?
 
 Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
 
 Heinrich Reck Str.12A
 
 18211 Admannshagen
 
 
 
 0172 8464 420
 
 WWW.Euronaut.org
 
 Carsten at euronaut.org 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 


From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 10 07:14:00 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 07:14:00 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>

Pete,

Yes, a square tip custom prop is required and my drawings indicate this.

I've never had a minn Kota prop in my hands, but my understanding is that they are also ABS plastic.

That being the case then anyone with 3d printing capability can produce replacement parts at will. All that's required is the appropriate 3d model configured to the limitations of the printer.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Pete Niedermayr <freepetesub at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that  the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
> What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013, 8:17 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-Mail Software 6.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> prototype was printed.
> I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
> better reliability 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> A
> Kort nozzle on the
> other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
> solid.. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Emile
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Van:
> Personal_Submersibles
> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
> 
> Verzonden:
> zaterdag 9 november
> 2013 11:02
> 
> Aan: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion
> 
> Onderwerp: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
> Kort Nozzle 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> Hi, just
> to show you the possibilities: 
> 
> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
> four hoses
> goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was
> with it down to
>  260 feet .
> 
> 
> 
>  http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
> melted. 
> 
> 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> schrieb:  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alec, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It
> would be a matter
> of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
> the  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> form
> would enable.
> With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
> allow 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for
> a thick mix, but
> the struts might not. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A
> bit of
> experimentation would be required. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If
> you back lit the
> printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
> it, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> be aware of
> any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
> rod 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> them
> down with a
> flexible piece of plastic rod.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One
> concern is that
> epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
> polyester) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> so the shell
> might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
> damaging the outer
> shell.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Private
> <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 10:23 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
> resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's
> stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
> fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
> made the nozzle in two
> halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
> both up, put them
> together, and wipe off the excess. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these
> products
> "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
> glass fibers" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  may
> be OK, in combination
> with epoxy resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> more you can
> add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
> thicker 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> harder to pour
> in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
> resin as it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would
> probably melt
> the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> may be able to
> use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
> down in to 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 8:10 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
> and try & find
> out a bit more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about
> this application & casting materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
> vent air for the
> resin  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pouring
> process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
> mould to give the
> resin more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grip
> to the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alan,  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
> little familiar with
> them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
> job controls the
> "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
> that is a sort of
> cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
> direction and density
> of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
> underwater application,
> is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
> always assumed I would
> print something like this solid. However, if you print it
> hollow and fill it
> with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
> lot stronger than
> if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
> parts but filled it up
> once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
> the "glue"
> that holds those parts together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> On
> Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
> nozzle. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There
> are printer kits for $900- that would do the
> job. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
> ounce. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
> to print 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
> glue together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My
> idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
> thickness & fill
> it with 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a
> fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
> to allow for
> contractions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in
> the resin while setting. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe
> under $30- in materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
> but I think this
> idea still 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holds
> a lot of promise. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
>  Carsten Standfu?
> 
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> 
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> 
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> 
> Carsten at euronaut.org 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 10 07:27:00 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 07:27:00 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6500A1E1-443A-49CC-8A61-BDF19EDB3F66@yahoo.com>

BTW, this whole Kort-Nozzle / Minn Kota business, has the potential of making the lower thrust (cheaper)  units available optimal as opposed to jazzing up the high end units.

Joe


Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:14 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Pete,
> 
> Yes, a square tip custom prop is required and my drawings indicate this.
> 
> I've never had a minn Kota prop in my hands, but my understanding is that they are also ABS plastic.
> 
> That being the case then anyone with 3d printing capability can produce replacement parts at will. All that's required is the appropriate 3d model configured to the limitations of the printer.
> 
> Joe
> 
> Sent from my overpriced 
> iPhone
> 
> On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Pete Niedermayr <freepetesub at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that  the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
>> What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013, 8:17 AM
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> E-Mail Software 6.0
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The
>> prototype was printed.
>> I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
>> better reliability 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A
>> Kort nozzle on the
>> other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
>> solid.. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Emile
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Van:
>> Personal_Submersibles
>> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
>> 
>> Verzonden:
>> zaterdag 9 november
>> 2013 11:02
>> 
>> Aan: Personal
>> Submersibles General
>> Discussion
>> 
>> Onderwerp: Re:
>> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
>> Kort Nozzle 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi, just
>> to show you the possibilities: 
>> 
>> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
>> four hoses
>> goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was
>> with it down to
>> 260 feet .
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
>> melted. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> vbr Carsten
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> schrieb:  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> Alec, 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It
>> would be a matter
>> of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
>> the  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> form
>> would enable.
>> With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
>> allow 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> for
>> a thick mix, but
>> the struts might not. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A
>> bit of
>> experimentation would be required. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If
>> you back lit the
>> printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
>> it, 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> &
>> be aware of
>> any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
>> rod 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> them
>> down with a
>> flexible piece of plastic rod.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> One
>> concern is that
>> epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
>> polyester) 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> &
>> so the shell
>> might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
>> damaging the outer
>> shell.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From:
>> Private
>> <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
>> 
>> To: Personal
>> Submersibles General
>> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> 
>> Sent:
>> Saturday, November 9, 2013
>> 10:23 AM
>> 
>> Subject: Re:
>> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
>> Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sorry,
>> the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
>> resin. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> That's
>> stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
>> fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
>> made the nozzle in two
>> halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
>> both up, put them
>> together, and wipe off the excess. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alec
>> / Joe, 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> these
>> products
>> "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
>> glass fibers" 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> may
>> be OK, in combination
>> with epoxy resin. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The
>> more you can
>> add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
>> thicker 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> &
>> harder to pour
>> in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
>> resin as it 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> would
>> probably melt
>> the printed shell. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> You
>> may be able to
>> use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
>> down in to 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> the
>> shell. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From:
>> Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> 
>> To: Personal
>> Submersibles General
>> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> 
>> 
>> Sent:
>> Saturday, November 9, 2013
>> 8:10 AM
>> 
>> Subject: Re:
>> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
>> Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alec
>> / Joe, 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I
>> will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
>> and try & find
>> out a bit more 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> about
>> this application & casting materials. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> You
>> would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
>> vent air for the
>> resin  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> pouring
>> process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
>> mould to give the
>> resin more 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> grip
>> to the printed shell. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Alan 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
>> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> Alan,  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I
>> like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
>> little familiar with
>> them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
>> job controls the
>> "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
>> that is a sort of
>> cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
>> direction and density
>> of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
>> underwater application,
>> is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
>> always assumed I would
>> print something like this solid. However, if you print it
>> hollow and fill it
>> with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
>> lot stronger than
>> if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
>> parts but filled it up
>> once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
>> the "glue"
>> that holds those parts together. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alec  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On
>> Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joe,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I
>> was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
>> nozzle. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> There
>> are printer kits for $900- that would do the
>> job. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The
>> ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
>> ounce. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The
>> $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
>> to print 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> the
>> nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
>> glue together. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My
>> idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
>> thickness & fill
>> it with 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> a
>> fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
>> to allow for
>> contractions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> in
>> the resin while setting. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Maybe
>> under $30- in materials. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I
>> am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
>> but I think this
>> idea still 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> holds
>> a lot of promise. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> Alan 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> 
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> 
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Carsten Standfu?
>> 
>> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
>> 
>> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
>> 
>> 18211 Admannshagen
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 0172 8464 420
>> 
>> WWW.Euronaut.org
>> 
>> Carsten at euronaut.org 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Sun Nov 10 09:23:02 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 06:23:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <D9A911B90D0840CA9F2D938279CB7977@LandNSeaPC>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <D9A911B90D0840CA9F2D938279CB7977@LandNSeaPC>
Message-ID: <1384093382.89131.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Rick,
Wish I was there, sound fun.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:13:03 PM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
  
I thought I had some lengths of 4? X 4? laying around but was wrong so I 
used some 2? X 4??s which I had plenty of and it took 25 feet of? 2? X 4? 
lumber to make it neutral which looks like about 48.46 cu in of wood buoy 1 lb 
after the lead is submerged as well as the displacement of the wood. I am sure I 
will loose some buoyancy from the wood at depth but not enough to make it a 
hassle to haul back in by hand. If the pod floods then it?s plan B, using some 
lift bags in stages to get her back. I?ll let ya all know how they tested 
out. 

Rick 

From: hank pronk  
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 7:42 AM 
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy 
 
Hi Rick, 
I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.? I think they give 
35lb buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go to 
600 ft.? Test one first. 
Hank 



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, 
Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
 
Hi David, 

any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy? 

Rick 

From: David Colombo  
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM 
To: Personal 
Submersibles General Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy 
 
Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.? The 551 
float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.? The 364 float is $6.00 
ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough 
for 18 or 72.  
David Colombo 
On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" 
<Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> 
wrote:

Hi  Rick, 
>? 
>If  you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend  fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm 
>? 
>I  guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency  release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever. 
>? 
>? 
>Best, 
>
>Alec 
>? 
>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
>Sent: Thursday, November  07, 2013 2:18 PM
>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST]  buoyancy 
>? 
>I was thinking of testing both my  battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any  issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two  vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries  while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did  the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement  of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries  in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of  launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about  30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I  could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question  but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea  water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start 
 testing. 
>I also mentioned the other week  about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and  battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on  that. 
>? 
>Rick
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>  

________________________________
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


 

________________________________

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sun Nov 10 12:46:35 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:46:35 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <6500A1E1-443A-49CC-8A61-BDF19EDB3F66@yahoo.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
 <6500A1E1-443A-49CC-8A61-BDF19EDB3F66@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <527FC67B.3010002@psubs.org>


Joe, I've uploaded the documents to www.psubs.org -> Resources & 
Reference -> Design Tools -> Modifications

We'll use the Modifications folder for any other mods as well so 
everything is in one place.  For someone not familiar with CAD (such as 
myself) it would be nice to have a white-paper that describes which file 
extensions are associated with various software.  For example, I've 
never heard of a .stp file so don't know how to use it.  I did some 
searching and see that there are some STP viewers available for 
download, but which software product did you use to create the files and 
is use of the .stp file limited to that particular software?

Jon


On 11/10/2013 7:27 AM, Joe Perkel wrote:
> BTW, this whole Kort-Nozzle / Minn Kota business, has the potential of making the lower thrust (cheaper)  units available optimal as opposed to jazzing up the high end units.
>
> Joe
>

From jonw at psubs.org  Sun Nov 10 12:59:26 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:59:26 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org>


To PSUBS members;

Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS 
organization.  On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent 
me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS 
membership for those flowers.

Jon


From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Sun Nov 10 13:19:35 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 08:19:35 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1384093382.89131.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72432C8FF924F19897FEB204582FE57@LandNSeaPC>
 <abe52ab89b874bada892c8996fbf848f@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHHFyEG6zmU6Xmi-kU2Ht+BaSwZB5NVg27rT7QJJ5VVN01kmNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3071CC18CE384B08B0A7267778667AE1@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384018944.44618.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <D9A911B90D0840CA9F2D938279CB7977@LandNSeaPC>
 <1384093382.89131.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FB2381EC81F843E692B07BD0D54A3898@LandNSeaPC>

Hank,

It will be fun unless they flood, I?ll let ya know. Not looking forward to plan B if I have to go that route.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:23 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Rick,
Wish I was there, sound fun.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:13:03 PM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

I thought I had some lengths of 4? X 4? laying around but was wrong so I used some 2? X 4??s which I had plenty of and it took 25 feet of  2? X 4? lumber to make it neutral which looks like about 48.46 cu in of wood buoy 1 lb after the lead is submerged as well as the displacement of the wood. I am sure I will loose some buoyancy from the wood at depth but not enough to make it a hassle to haul back in by hand. If the pod floods then it?s plan B, using some lift bags in stages to get her back. I?ll let ya all know how they tested out.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick,
I have used 20lb propane tanks for buoyancy.  I think they give 35lb buoyancy and if you pressurize them to 125psi I am sure they could go to 600 ft.  Test one first.
Hank



On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:16:57 AM, Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

Hi David,

any idea what the two floats provide in buoyancy?

Rick

From: David Colombo 
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

Hi Rick, here is a quote on the floats I just got.  The 551 float is $10.80 ea., less 10% per carton of 18.  The 364 float is $6.00 ea., less 10% per carton of 72. I will be ordering some of each, but not enough for 18 or 72. 
David Colombo
On Nov 7, 2013 12:02 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

  Hi Rick,

  If you need some cheap buoyancy that will go to significant depths, I?d recommend fishing floats you can get here: http://trawlworks.com/floats.htm

  I guarantee you?ll find uses for them afterwards, whether it?s as emergency release buoys, mooring buoys, or whatever.


  Best,

  Alec

  From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea
  Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:18 PM
  To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
  Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy

  I was thinking of testing both my battery pods to 600? before I weld them to the hull so that if there are any issues with leakage I would still be able to get them on a lathe. I added two vents per pod with O rings so that I can push/suck air across the batteries while charging so there are a couple of more places for leaks to occur. I did the calks' and they weigh in at 295 LBS. each dry with a negative displacement of around 30 lbs. I was hoping that they would barley float with no batteries in them so that I could weight them just slightly negative for ease of launching and retrieving but that?s not the case. I need to come up with about 30 lbs. of positive buoyancy and don?t have any syntactic foam so I figured I could strap some 4? X 4?, on them to achieve that. This may be a dumb question but does anyone happen to know the per foot buoyancy of a 4? X 4? in sea water? If not I?ll head down to the ocean and start testing.
  I also mentioned the other week about my desire to omit the plate that is welded to the pressure hull and battery pod of a K-350 and was wondering if any one could comment on that.

  Rick

  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 10 14:03:26 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 14:03:26 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <527FC67B.3010002@psubs.org>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
 <6500A1E1-443A-49CC-8A61-BDF19EDB3F66@yahoo.com> <527FC67B.3010002@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <D83552C9-15F8-44ED-9DD2-0CAB376C88FE@yahoo.com>

Jon,

Out in the "wild" at the moment, will address this when I get back but briefly,  my native rhino3d extension is .3dm which is only useable with rhino. I converted to .stp only as it was requested by several online vendors. I can convert to any commonly used extension.

Joe 

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> Joe, I've uploaded the documents to www.psubs.org -> Resources & Reference -> Design Tools -> Modifications
> 
> We'll use the Modifications folder for any other mods as well so everything is in one place.  For someone not familiar with CAD (such as myself) it would be nice to have a white-paper that describes which file extensions are associated with various software.  For example, I've never heard of a .stp file so don't know how to use it.  I did some searching and see that there are some STP viewers available for download, but which software product did you use to create the files and is use of the .stp file limited to that particular software?
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> On 11/10/2013 7:27 AM, Joe Perkel wrote:
>> BTW, this whole Kort-Nozzle / Minn Kota business, has the potential of making the lower thrust (cheaper)  units available optimal as opposed to jazzing up the high end units.
>> 
>> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From Vbra676539 at AOL.com  Sun Nov 10 17:16:51 2013
From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:16:51 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>

Thanks Jon.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> To PSUBS members;
> 
> Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS organization.  On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for those flowers.
> 
> Jon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com  Mon Nov 11 11:14:53 2013
From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:14:53 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c38d9d84194a48e08614aed231d8f7c9@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Well... actually a prop would be pretty hard to print. The reason is the object you're printing has to have support as it builds, and overhangs are an issue. You can have overhang if it's at an angle, but it has to be a gradual overhang rather than something entirely unsupported. Picture a climber going up a cliff. You could print the cliff even if it slopes backward a bit, but you could not print it if the climber gets to a 90 degree "corner" from which the cliff he is climbing abruptly turns into a "ceiling" that extends out from the mountain without support.  

Maybe one could build the blades individually, standing on their outside edges, and put them on a hub. In fact that is a good way to make statically adjustable-pitch props, which is what I'm hoping to do. Something like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/P8040170.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/&h=453&w=283&sz=28&tbnid=oDDGGDQ9VGYHcM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=58&zoom=1&usg=__SpadE0b3zIAg1smJNHaGjW7wuvY=&docid=2eSkxXfumVGSnM&sa=X&ei=zAGBUuWCJOGbygGOt4GYBA&ved=0CGMQ9QEwBQ

Or, far simpler, we could just locate adjustable scooter props like the one pictured and get them off the shelf.


Best,

Alec

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:14 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts

Pete,

Yes, a square tip custom prop is required and my drawings indicate this.

I've never had a minn Kota prop in my hands, but my understanding is that they are also ABS plastic.

That being the case then anyone with 3d printing capability can produce replacement parts at will. All that's required is the appropriate 3d model configured to the limitations of the printer.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Pete Niedermayr <freepetesub at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that  the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
> What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013, 8:17 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-Mail Software 6.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> prototype was printed.
> I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
> better reliability 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> A
> Kort nozzle on the
> other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
> solid.. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Emile
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Van:
> Personal_Submersibles
> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
> 
> Verzonden:
> zaterdag 9 november
> 2013 11:02
> 
> Aan: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion
> 
> Onderwerp: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
> Kort Nozzle 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> Hi, just
> to show you the possibilities: 
> 
> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
> four hoses
> goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was
> with it down to
>  260 feet .
> 
> 
> 
>  http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
> melted. 
> 
> 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> schrieb:  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alec, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It
> would be a matter
> of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
> the  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> form
> would enable.
> With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
> allow 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for
> a thick mix, but
> the struts might not. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A
> bit of
> experimentation would be required. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If
> you back lit the
> printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
> it, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> be aware of
> any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
> rod 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> them
> down with a
> flexible piece of plastic rod.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One
> concern is that
> epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
> polyester) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> so the shell
> might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
> damaging the outer
> shell.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Private
> <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 10:23 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
> resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's
> stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
> fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
> made the nozzle in two
> halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
> both up, put them
> together, and wipe off the excess. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these
> products
> "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
> glass fibers" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  may
> be OK, in combination
> with epoxy resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> more you can
> add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
> thicker 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> harder to pour
> in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
> resin as it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would
> probably melt
> the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> may be able to
> use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
> down in to 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 8:10 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
> and try & find
> out a bit more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about
> this application & casting materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
> vent air for the
> resin  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pouring
> process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
> mould to give the
> resin more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grip
> to the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alan,  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
> little familiar with
> them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
> job controls the
> "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
> that is a sort of
> cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
> direction and density
> of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
> underwater application,
> is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
> always assumed I would
> print something like this solid. However, if you print it
> hollow and fill it
> with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
> lot stronger than
> if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
> parts but filled it up
> once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
> the "glue"
> that holds those parts together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> On
> Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
> nozzle. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There
> are printer kits for $900- that would do the
> job. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
> ounce. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
> to print 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
> glue together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My
> idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
> thickness & fill
> it with 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a
> fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
> to allow for
> contractions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in
> the resin while setting. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe
> under $30- in materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
> but I think this
> idea still 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holds
> a lot of promise. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
>   
> 
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> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
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> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
>  Carsten Standfu?
> 
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> 
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> 
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> 
> Carsten at euronaut.org 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov 11 17:10:48 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:10:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org> <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>
Message-ID: <1384207848.84671.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Vance,
Just working on Gamma's hyd arm.? It sure is built, you could put a bucket on it and dig trenches.? It is not so big when on the sub.? I am working on making it jettesonable.? Also I am putting the hyd valve inside and I have made a new 1in thick penetrator (A516-70)?for the hyd lines and for the hyd? cylinder that will cut the lines and kick the arm off the sub.? Lots of fun at this stage.
Hank



On Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:17:22 PM, Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:
  
Thanks Jon.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> To PSUBS members;
> 
> Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS organization.? On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for those flowers.
> 
> Jon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
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From vbra676539 at aol.com  Mon Nov 11 17:51:36 2013
From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:51:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <1384207848.84671.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org> <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>
 <1384207848.84671.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0AD47B5F19FF1-C98-3EC60@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>

Sounds great. Looking forward to seeing the mods.
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard



Vance,
Just working on Gamma's hyd arm.  It sure is built, you could put a bucket on it and dig trenches.  It is not so big when on the sub.  I am working on making it jettesonable.  Also I am putting the hyd valve inside and I have made a new 1in thick penetrator (A516-70) for the hyd lines and for the hyd  cylinder that will cut the lines and kick the arm off the sub.  Lots of fun at this stage.
Hank
 
 
 
 
 
  On Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:17:22 PM, Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:
  
  
Thanks Jon.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> To PSUBS members;
> 
> Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS organization.  On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for those flowers.
> 
> Jon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



  
 
  
 


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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 11 18:17:50 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:17:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <c38d9d84194a48e08614aed231d8f7c9@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
 <c38d9d84194a48e08614aed231d8f7c9@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1384211870.9558.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Jon,

Looks good thanks for the space.

I did a little reading while on a break this weekend out in the sticks. It turns out that 3d print technology, specifically .stl files, are particularly sensitive to what are called "naked edges" or "non-manifold edges" in CAD speak. These will cause the print to fail.

Well, those thread holes in my files are full of these edges. So, anyone wanting either a machine-able or printable file for manufacture, can either manipulate the file themselves to remove these threads, or have me do it in a minute or two. The Kort profile itself is also scalable to varying prop sizes as required, again, I'm happy to provide anyone with the appropriate files as required for any particular application.

This was an enjoyable exercise. I'll pick another project soon.

Joe





On Monday, November 11, 2013 11:16 AM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
  
Well... actually a prop would be pretty hard to print. The reason is the object you're printing has to have support as it builds, and overhangs are an issue. You can have overhang if it's at an angle, but it has to be a gradual overhang rather than something entirely unsupported. Picture a climber going up a cliff. You could print the cliff even if it slopes backward a bit, but you could not print it if the climber gets to a 90 degree "corner" from which the cliff he is climbing abruptly turns into a "ceiling" that extends out from the mountain without support.? 

Maybe one could build the blades individually, standing on their outside edges, and put them on a hub. In fact that is a good way to make statically adjustable-pitch props, which is what I'm hoping to do. Something like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/P8040170.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/&h=453&w=283&sz=28&tbnid=oDDGGDQ9VGYHcM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=58&zoom=1&usg=__SpadE0b3zIAg1smJNHaGjW7wuvY=&docid=2eSkxXfumVGSnM&sa=X&ei=zAGBUuWCJOGbygGOt4GYBA&ved=0CGMQ9QEwBQ

Or, far simpler, we could just locate adjustable scooter props like the one pictured and get them off the shelf.


Best,

Alec

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:14 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts

Pete,

Yes, a square tip custom prop is required and my drawings indicate this.

I've never had a minn Kota prop in my hands, but my understanding is that they are also ABS plastic.

That being the case then anyone with 3d printing capability can produce replacement parts at will. All that's required is the appropriate 3d model configured to the limitations of the printer.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Pete Niedermayr <freepetesub at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that? the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
> What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013, 8:17 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-Mail Software 6.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> prototype was printed.
> I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
> better reliability 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> A
> Kort nozzle on the
> other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
> solid.. 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> Emile
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Van:
> Personal_Submersibles
> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
> 
> Verzonden:
> zaterdag 9 november
> 2013 11:02
> 
> Aan: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion
> 
> Onderwerp: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
> Kort Nozzle 
> 
> 
> 
>? ? 
> 
> Hi, just
> to show you the possibilities: 
> 
> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
> four hoses
> goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was
> with it down to
>? 260 feet .
> 
> 
> 
>? http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
> melted. 
> 
> 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> schrieb:? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alec, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It
> would be a matter
> of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
> the? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> form
> would enable.
> With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
> allow 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for
> a thick mix, but
> the struts might not. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A
> bit of
> experimentation would be required. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If
> you back lit the
> printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
> it, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> be aware of
> any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
> rod 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> them
> down with a
> flexible piece of plastic rod.? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One
> concern is that
> epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
> polyester) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> so the shell
> might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
> damaging the outer
> shell.? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Private
> <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 10:23 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
> resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's
> stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
> fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
> made the nozzle in two
> halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
> both up, put them
> together, and wipe off the excess. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these
> products
> "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
> glass fibers" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? may
> be OK, in combination
> with epoxy resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> more you can
> add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
> thicker 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> harder to pour
> in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
> resin as it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would
> probably melt
> the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> may be able to
> use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
> down in to 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 8:10 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
> and try & find
> out a bit more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about
> this application & casting materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
> vent air for the
> resin? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pouring
> process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
> mould to give the
> resin more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grip
> to the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alan,? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
> little familiar with
> them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
> job controls the
> "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save material
> that is a sort of
> cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
> direction and density
> of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
> underwater application,
> is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
> always assumed I would
> print something like this solid. However, if you print it
> hollow and fill it
> with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
> lot stronger than
> if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
> parts but filled it up
> once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
> the "glue"
> that holds those parts together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> On
> Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
> nozzle. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There
> are printer kits for $900- that would do the
> job. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
> ounce. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
> to print 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
> glue together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My
> idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
> thickness & fill
> it with 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a
> fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
> to allow for
> contractions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in
> the resin while setting. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe
> under $30- in materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
> but I think this
> idea still 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holds
> a lot of promise. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
>? Carsten Standfu?
> 
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> 
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> 
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> 
> Carsten at euronaut.org 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov 11 18:26:45 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:26:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <8D0AD47B5F19FF1-C98-3EC60@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org> <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>
 <1384207848.84671.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0AD47B5F19FF1-C98-3EC60@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1384212405.40461.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Vance, I ?thought moving the valve inside might mess up you golf swing. :-)
Hank



On Monday, November 11, 2013 3:51:52 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" <vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote:
  
Sounds great. Looking forward to seeing the mods. 
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard


Vance, 
Just working on Gamma's hyd arm.? It sure is built, you could put a bucket on it and dig trenches.? It is not so big when on the sub.? I am working on making it jettesonable.? Also I am putting the hyd valve inside and I have made a new 1in thick penetrator (A516-70)?for the hyd lines and for the hyd? cylinder that will cut the lines and kick the arm off the sub.? Lots of fun at this stage. 
Hank 



On Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:17:22 PM, Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:
  
Thanks Jon.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> To PSUBS members;
> 
> Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS organization.? On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for those flowers.
> 
> Jon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 11 19:23:30 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:23:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
Message-ID: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

To interested parties,
I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
delaminating.
I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
Will do some experimenting.
Alan
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From psub101 at indy.rr.com  Mon Nov 11 19:28:03 2013
From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:28:03 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <005201cedf3e$0ceba7e0$26c2f7a0$@indy.rr.com>

Good job.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
On Behalf Of Jon Wallace
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 12:59 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard


To PSUBS members;

Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS
organization.  On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me
an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for
those flowers.

Jon

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov 11 19:30:49 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
Hank



On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
To interested parties,
I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
delaminating.
I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
Will do some experimenting.
Alan




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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 11 20:03:27 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:03:27 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>

Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Alan,
> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> To interested parties,
> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
> delaminating.
> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
> Will do some experimenting.
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov 11 20:09:06 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:09:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
Hank?



On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>To interested parties,
>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>delaminating.
>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>Will do some experimenting.
>Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 11 22:43:53 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:43:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Looks good Hank,
has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce

It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
epoxy to other structures.
Alan


________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 


Alan,
look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
Hank?



On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>To interested parties,
>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>delaminating.
>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>Will do some experimenting.
>Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




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From vbra676539 at aol.com  Tue Nov 12 08:09:32 2013
From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:09:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard
In-Reply-To: <1384212405.40461.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org>
 <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com>
 <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com>
 <CAOGJjn+6uv7SMb1ZEyuKPcysyHj-ABJ8bgnSx=Vd++_8=NMGqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <527FC97E.4090903@psubs.org> <202916BD-5438-439A-B1B8-51E3A0A087E2@AOL.com>
 <1384207848.84671.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0AD47B5F19FF1-C98-3EC60@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com>
 <1384212405.40461.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0ADBF8F8245A9-1F40-DD7@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com>

My golf swing is plenty messed up already. Not sure the valves would make much of a difference. The good news is that I am now giving the old Kittredge in my my garage a serious look. It will get a ball and socket arm, so the golf swing is safe.
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard



Vance, I  thought moving the valve inside might mess up you golf swing. :-)
Hank
 
 
 
 
 
  On Monday, November 11, 2013 3:51:52 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" <vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote:
  
  

Sounds great. Looking forward to seeing the mods.
Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard




Vance,
Just working on Gamma's hyd arm.  It sure is built, you could put a bucket on it and dig trenches.  It is not so big when on the sub.  I am working on making it jettesonable.  Also I am putting the hyd valve inside and I have made a new 1in thick penetrator (A516-70) for the hyd lines and for the hyd  cylinder that will cut the lines and kick the arm off the sub.  Lots of fun at this stage.
Hank
 
 
 
 
 
  On Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:17:22 PM, Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:
  
  
Thanks Jon.
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> To PSUBS members;
> 
> Flowers were sent to Harold's memorial service on behalf of the PSUBS organization.  On behalf of herself and the family, Nellie Maynard sent me an email extending her thanks and appreciation to the PSUBS membership for those flowers.
> 
> Jon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Tue Nov 12 08:27:18 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:27:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
Hank



On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Looks good Hank,
has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce

It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
epoxy to other structures.
Alan
 

________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
  


Alan,
look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
Hank?



On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>To interested parties,
>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>delaminating.
>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>Will do some experimenting.
>Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


    

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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 09:35:36 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:35:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts
In-Reply-To: <1384211870.9558.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384052662.10988.YahooMailBasic@web140505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <2BA325FC-5FFD-4407-87BA-C838D69D39C6@yahoo.com>
 <c38d9d84194a48e08614aed231d8f7c9@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <1384211870.9558.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384266936.22412.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Pete,

Sent files from my Hotmail account, yahoo blocked me.

Joe



On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:19 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Jon,

Looks good thanks for the space.

I did a little reading while on a break this weekend out in the sticks. It turns out that 3d print technology, specifically .stl files, are particularly sensitive to what are called "naked edges" or "non-manifold edges" in CAD speak. These will cause the print to fail.

Well, those thread holes in my files are full of these edges. So, anyone wanting either a machine-able or printable file for manufacture, can either manipulate the file themselves to remove these threads, or have me do it in a minute or two. The Kort profile itself is also scalable to varying prop sizes as required, again, I'm happy to provide anyone with the appropriate files as required for any particular application.

This was an enjoyable exercise. I'll pick another project soon.

Joe





On Monday, November 11, 2013 11:16 AM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:
  
Well... actually a prop would be pretty hard to print. The reason is the object you're printing has to have support as it builds, and overhangs are an issue. You can have overhang if it's at an angle, but it has to be a gradual overhang rather than something entirely unsupported. Picture a climber going up a cliff. You could print the cliff even if it slopes backward a bit, but you could not print it if the climber gets to a 90 degree "corner" from which the cliff he is climbing abruptly turns into a "ceiling" that extends out from the mountain without support.? 

Maybe one could build the blades individually, standing on their outside edges, and put them on a hub. In fact that is a good way to make statically adjustable-pitch props, which is what I'm hoping to do. Something like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/P8040170.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.silent-submersion.com/Instructions/props/&h=453&w=283&sz=28&tbnid=oDDGGDQ9VGYHcM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=58&zoom=1&usg=__SpadE0b3zIAg1smJNHaGjW7wuvY=&docid=2eSkxXfumVGSnM&sa=X&ei=zAGBUuWCJOGbygGOt4GYBA&ved=0CGMQ9QEwBQ

Or, far simpler, we could just locate adjustable scooter props like the one pictured and get them off the shelf.


Best,

Alec

-----Original
 Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:14 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Props for Korts

Pete,

Yes, a square tip custom prop is required and my drawings indicate this.

I've never had a minn Kota prop in my hands, but my understanding is that they are also ABS plastic.

That being the case then anyone with 3d printing capability can produce replacement parts at will. All that's required is the appropriate 3d model configured to the limitations of the printer.

Joe

Sent from my overpriced 
iPhone

On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Pete Niedermayr <freepetesub at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been reading up on kort nozzles. I'm under the impression that? the prop design is an intergral part of a kort nozzle. ie shroud plus prop equals kort nozzle. 
> What about the prop design? How does an off the shelf prop effect the performance of the kort nozzle ? Do we need to be talking about prop design and fabrication as part of a kort nozzle?
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 11/9/13, Emile van Essen <emile at airesearch.nl> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2013,
 8:17 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-Mail Software 6.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> prototype was printed.
> I machined the final version from solid POM /DELRIN for
> better reliability 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> A
> Kort nozzle on the
> other hand, would be extreme inefficient to machine from
> solid.. 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> Emile
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Van:
> Personal_Submersibles
> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] 
> 
> Verzonden:
>
 zaterdag 9 november
> 2013 11:02
> 
> Aan: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion
> 
> Onderwerp: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed
> Kort Nozzle 
> 
> 
> 
>? ? 
> 
> Hi, just
> to show you the possibilities: 
> 
> The black part forward the eyemask, means th part were the
> four hoses
> goes in - is a 3D print out. The diver was
> with it down to
>? 260 feet .
> 
> 
> 
>? http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/diving/oxydrant/DoublellopwithPeppers001.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> The printer use a plastic wire with was print out hot
> melted. 
> 
> 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Alan James"
 <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> schrieb:? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alec, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It
> would be a matter
> of putting as much fiber in with the resin that
> the? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> form
> would enable.
> With the kort nozzle, the nozzle shape would
> allow 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for
> a thick mix, but
> the struts might not. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A
> bit of
> experimentation would be required. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If
> you back lit the
> printed shell you may be able to see the resin as it fills
> it, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
 &
> be aware of
> any air voids. Again with the thicker mixes you could ram
> rod 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> them
> down with a
> flexible piece of plastic rod.? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One
> concern is that
> epoxy shrinks when setting, (but not as bad
> polyester) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> so the shell
> might need to be filled in a coupe of pours to stop it
> damaging the outer
> shell.? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Private
> <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 10:23 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> the ones I was referring to are LONG fibers mixed with the
> resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:21 PM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's
> stuff is exactly what I meant by "structural
> fiberglass". You can't pour it. However, if you
> made the nozzle in two
> halves like doughnut-shaped dog bowls, you could fill them
> both up, put them
> together, and wipe off the excess. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these
> products
> "milled glass fibers" or "chopped strand
> glass fibers" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? may
> be OK, in combination
> with epoxy resin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> more you can
> add, the stronger the product, but also it becomes
> thicker 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> harder to pour
> in to small voids. I would be careful of using polyester
> resin as it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would
> probably melt
> the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
 You
> may be able to
> use a thin flexible plastic rod to stuff courser mixtures
> down in to 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> 
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> 
> 
> Sent:
> Saturday, November 9, 2013
> 8:10 AM
> 
> Subject: Re:
>
 [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec
> / Joe, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> will contact a friend who is in the 3d printing business,
> and try & find
> out a bit more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about
> this application & casting materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You
> would need to incorporate risers (tubes) in the design to
> vent air for the
> resin? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pouring
> process, & maybe " keys" on the inside of the
> mould to give the
> resin more 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grip
> to the printed shell. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/11/2013, at 12:24 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Alan,? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> like this idea! I have a printer I built myself so am a
> little familiar with
> them. One of the parameters you provide the printers on each
> job controls the
> "filling" of the piece. Normally, to save
 material
> that is a sort of
> cross-hatch, and the parameters control things like the
> direction and density
> of that cross-hatch. But the problem with that, for an
> underwater application,
> is that the resulting piece is full of air voids. I'd
> always assumed I would
> print something like this solid. However, if you print it
> hollow and fill it
> with structural fiberglass, the end result is going to be a
> lot stronger than
> if it's solid plastic. In addition, if we printed by
> parts but filled it up
> once those parts are assembled, the resin itself could be
> the "glue"
> that holds those parts together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alec? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> On
> Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> was re thinking your idea of a printed Kort
> nozzle. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There
> are printer kits for $900- that would do the
> job. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.3dstuffmaker.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> ABS printer cable I've seen selling for about $1- an
> ounce. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The
> $899- version in the above link could possibly be big enough
> to print 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the
> nozzle in one shot. If not then print it in sections &
> glue together. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My
> idea is to print the nozzle hollow with an egg shell wall
> thickness & fill
> it with 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a
> fiber reinforced epoxy resin. The resin may need a few pours
> to allow for
> contractions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in
> the resin while setting. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe
> under $30- in materials. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I
> am not at the point where I need this & neither are you,
> but I think this
> idea still 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holds
> a lot of promise. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> 
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> 
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>? 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
>? Carsten Standfu?
> 
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> 
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> 
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> 
> Carsten at euronaut.org 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com  Tue Nov 12 12:46:40 2013
From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:46:40 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
Message-ID: <201311120946327.SM09004@[66.162.33.185]>

Not sure if this could help with design of 3-D printed Kort nozzel:
Enter the  Splash Lab at Brigham Young University, where researchers are trying to figure  out how to prevent urinal splash-back. Fluid dynamics scientist Randy Hurd and  his graduate adviser, Tadd Truscott, created a model of the male urethra   on a 3-D printer ? a cylinder measuring 0.31 inches by 0.12 inches (8  millimeters by 3 millimeters). The urethra was attached to a pressurized  container with tubing. The team sent a steady stream of dyed water through the  tubing at a urine flow rate equivalent to that of a middle-age man, or about 0.7  ounces per second (21 milliliters per second). 
couldn't resist
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: "hank pronk" <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
Sent 11/12/2013 5:27:18 AM
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort NozzleAlan,How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.Hank On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:Looks good Hank,has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffceIt is a gel like consistency so
may not suit every application. Has 0.1
shrinkage.Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off theprinted outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?epoxy to other structures.AlanFrom: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent:Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort NozzleAlan,look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe
not for kort nozzles.??Hank? On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:Hi Hank,I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throwIn the other additives that give it various properties, like
hardness.?The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick oras thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:Alan,this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.Hank On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James
<alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:To interested parties,I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items withfiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had alreadydiscussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the
exterior?delaminating.I also
spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy
only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such asmilled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.So shrinkage may not be a major problem.Will do some experimenting.Alan
_______________________________________________
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Tue Nov 12 13:02:52 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:02:52 -0600
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <201311120946327.SM09004@[66.162.33.185]>
References: <201311120946327.SM09004@[66.162.33.185]>
Message-ID: <B473369F-B2A2-4048-855A-BAA9E3F2AA8C@aol.com>

Brian,
You didn't mention what pressure was used in the experiment. It might be hard to come up with empirical data, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from my generation on the variability.  After all these years I'm still trying to perfect technique. 
Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 12, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "brian" <brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote:
> 
> Not sure if this could help with design of 3-D printed Kort nozzel:
> 
> Enter the Splash Lab at Brigham Young University, where researchers are trying to figure out how to prevent urinal splash-back. Fluid dynamics scientist Randy Hurd and his graduate adviser, Tadd Truscott, created a model of the male urethra on a 3-D printer ? a cylinder measuring 0.31 inches by 0.12 inches (8 millimeters by 3 millimeters). The urethra was attached to a pressurized container with tubing. The team sent a steady stream of dyed water through the tubing at a urine flow rate equivalent to that of a middle-age man, or about 0.7 ounces per second (21 milliliters per second). 
> 
> couldn't resist
> 
> Brian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "hank pronk" <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> Sent 11/12/2013 5:27:18 AM
> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Alan,
> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks good Hank,
> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
> epoxy to other structures.
> Alan
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Alan,
> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
> Hank 
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Alan,
>> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>> Hank
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> To interested parties,
>> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
>> delaminating.
>> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>> Will do some experimenting.
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 13:51:26 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:51:26 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <B473369F-B2A2-4048-855A-BAA9E3F2AA8C@aol.com>
References: <201311120946327.SM09004@[66.162.33.185]>
 <B473369F-B2A2-4048-855A-BAA9E3F2AA8C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <492C6901-18B8-464E-B99D-C743C9F696A2@yahoo.com>

Hi Jim / Brian,
This is under the subject of "printed kort nozzle".
Are you guys suggesting a kort nozzle type attachment as a splash guard?
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 7:02 AM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

> Brian,
> You didn't mention what pressure was used in the experiment. It might be hard to come up with empirical data, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from my generation on the variability.  After all these years I'm still trying to perfect technique. 
> Jim
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Nov 12, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "brian" <brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote:
> 
>> Not sure if this could help with design of 3-D printed Kort nozzel:
>> 
>> Enter the Splash Lab at Brigham Young University, where researchers are trying to figure out how to prevent urinal splash-back. Fluid dynamics scientist Randy Hurd and his graduate adviser, Tadd Truscott, created a model of the male urethra on a 3-D printer ? a cylinder measuring 0.31 inches by 0.12 inches (8 millimeters by 3 millimeters). The urethra was attached to a pressurized container with tubing. The team sent a steady stream of dyed water through the tubing at a urine flow rate equivalent to that of a middle-age man, or about 0.7 ounces per second (21 milliliters per second). 
>> 
>> couldn't resist
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "hank pronk" <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>> Sent 11/12/2013 5:27:18 AM
>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alan,
>> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>> Hank
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Looks good Hank,
>> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
>> epoxy to other structures.
>> Alan
>> 
>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: 
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alan,
>> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
>> Hank 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Hank,
>> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
>> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>> Alan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Alan,
>>> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>> Hank
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> To interested parties,
>>> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
>>> delaminating.
>>> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>> Will do some experimenting.
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 14:19:56 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:19:56 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>

Hi Hank,
as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials. 
Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to, 
then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold. 
Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce. 
That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Alan,
> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks good Hank,
> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
> epoxy to other structures.
> Alan
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Alan,
> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
> Hank 
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Alan,
>> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>> Hank
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> To interested parties,
>> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
>> delaminating.
>> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>> Will do some experimenting.
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Tue Nov 12 16:53:56 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:53:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
sounds like you bin there done that
Hank



On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Hank,
as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.?
Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
You need to make a supporting?structure to pour the silicone in to,?
then on bigger molds, an external support?structure for the silicone mold.?
Some times the silicone molds need?to be made in two halves.
So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
There is probably not a lot on?a submarine you would?want to mass produce.?
That's why I like the idea of this?printing process?for one offs.
Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>Looks good Hank,
>has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>
>It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
>epoxy to other structures.
>Alan
>
> 
>
>________________________________
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>Sent: 
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
>
>
>Alan,
>look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
>Hank?
>
>
>
>On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>Hi Hank,
>I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
>The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>Alan
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Alan,
>>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>Hank
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>  
>>To interested parties,
>>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>>delaminating.
>>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>Will do some experimenting.
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>    
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>   
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
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From freepetesub at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 18:23:28 2013
From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:23:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <B473369F-B2A2-4048-855A-BAA9E3F2AA8C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1384298608.18302.YahooMailBasic@web140501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Do you think the pressure is measured by the 6 pack ?
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/12/13, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 10:02 AM
 
 Brian,You
 didn't mention what pressure was used in the experiment.
 It might be hard to come up with empirical data, but
 there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from my generation
 on the variability. ?After all these years I'm
 still trying to perfect technique.?Jim
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 On Nov 12, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "brian" <brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com>
 wrote:
 
 Not sure if this could
 help with design of 3-D printed Kort nozzel:
 
 
 
 Enter the  Splash Lab at Brigham Young University, where
 researchers are trying to figure  out how to prevent urinal
 splash-back. Fluid dynamics scientist Randy Hurd and  his
 graduate adviser, Tadd Truscott, created a model of the
 male urethra   on a 3-D printer ? a cylinder measuring
 0.31 inches by 0.12 inches (8  millimeters by 3
 millimeters). The urethra was attached to a pressurized 
 container with tubing. The team sent a steady stream of dyed
 water through the  tubing at a urine flow rate equivalent to
 that of a middle-age man, or about 0.7  ounces per second
 (21 milliliters per second). 
 
 
 
 couldn't resist
 
 
 
 Brian
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 
 From: "hank pronk" <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
 
 Sent 11/12/2013 5:27:18 AM
 
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 
 
 
 
 Alan,
 How about take the printed mould and make it
 smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you
 can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.??
 Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with
 thick mixes.
 Hank
  
 
 
 
 
 
   On Monday,
 November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 wrote:
 
  
 
 
 
 
 Looks good Hank,
 has
 only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be
 an option.
 You
 could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen
 it.
 Here
 is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price &
 has the fiber mixed in it.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
 
 
 It
 is a gel like consistency so
 may not suit every application. Has 0.1
 shrinkage.
 Again
 if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my
 desired consistency.
 Another
 thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to
 the printed shell
 &
 drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour
 in the resin & peel off the
 printed
 outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that
 could be attached with?
 epoxy
 to other structures.
 Alan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  From: hank pronk
 <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
 
 To:
 Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 
 
 Sent: 
 
 Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 Alan,
 look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is
 cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees
 f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice
 stuff but maybe
 not for kort nozzles.??
 Hank?
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
   On Monday,
 November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
 wrote:
 
  
 
 
 
 Hi Hank,
 I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
 I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy
 & hardener & throw
 In the other additives that give it various properties,
 like
 hardness.?
 The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural
 strength & I can mix it in as thick or
 as thin as I want depending on the section thickness /
 complexity of the form I want to fill.
 Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off
 the shelf pre-mixed items.
 Alan
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
 On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Alan,
 this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid
 plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost
 nothing.? It also does not generate heat when
 curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey
 puck.
 Hank
  
 
 
 
 
 
   On Monday,
 November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James
 <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
  
 
 
 
 
 To interested parties,
 I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding
 filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
 fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but
 thought it had a lot of potential.
 He suggested watching out for heat generated in the
 exothermic reaction, as we had already
 discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as
 a key?for the epoxy, to
 stop the
 exterior?
 delaminating.
 I also
 spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy
 only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
 milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will
 decrease proportionate to the additive.
 So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
 Will do some experimenting.
 Alan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 19:09:17 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:09:17 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>

Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan

  

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Alan,
> sounds like you bin there done that
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials. 
> Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
> You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to, 
> then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold. 
> Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
> So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
> But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
> There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce. 
> That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
> Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Alan,
>> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>> Hank
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Looks good Hank,
>> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
>> epoxy to other structures.
>> Alan
>> 
>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: 
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>> Alan,
>> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
>> Hank 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Hank,
>> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
>> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>> Alan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Alan,
>>> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>> Hank
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> To interested parties,
>>> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
>>> delaminating.
>>> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>> Will do some experimenting.
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Tue Nov 12 19:22:27 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:22:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
That seems logical providing the void is large enough.? I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.? I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.? The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.? Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.? I will bow to your experience though.
Hank



On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan

??

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>sounds like you bin there done that
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>Hi Hank,
>as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.?
>Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
>You need to make a supporting?structure to pour the silicone in to,?
>then on bigger molds, an external support?structure for the silicone mold.?
>Some times the silicone molds need?to be made in two halves.
>So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
>But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
>There is probably not a lot on?a submarine you would?want to mass produce.?
>That's why I like the idea of this?printing process?for one offs.
>Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
>Alan
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Alan,
>>How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>>Hank
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>  
>>Looks good Hank,
>>has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>>You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>>Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>>
>>It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>>Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>>Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>>& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>>printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
>>epoxy to other structures.
>>Alan
>>
>> 
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>Sent: 
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>>  
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
>>Hank?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>  
>>Hi Hank,
>>I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>>I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>>In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
>>The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>>as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>>Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>>Alan
>>
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>>Hank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>  
>>>To interested parties,
>>>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>>>delaminating.
>>>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>>Will do some experimenting.
>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>   
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>    
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 19:56:16 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:56:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
 <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hank,
I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
Alan


________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
 


Alan,
That seems logical providing the void is large enough.? I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.? I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.? The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.? Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.? I will bow to your experience though.
Hank



On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan

??

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>sounds like you bin there done that
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>Hi Hank,
>as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.?
>Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
>You need to make a supporting?structure to pour the silicone in to,?
>then on bigger molds, an external support?structure for the silicone mold.?
>Some times the silicone molds need?to be made in two halves.
>So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
>But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
>There is probably not a lot on?a submarine you would?want to mass produce.?
>That's why I like the idea of this?printing process?for one offs.
>Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
>Alan
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Alan,
>>How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>>Hank
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>Looks good Hank,
>>has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>>You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>>Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>>
>>It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>>Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>>Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>>& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>>printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
>>epoxy to other structures.
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>Sent: 
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>> 
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
>>Hank?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>Hi Hank,
>>I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>>I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>>In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
>>The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>>as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>>Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>>Alan
>>
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>>Hank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>To interested parties,
>>>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>>>delaminating.
>>>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>>Will do some experimenting.
>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Tue Nov 12 20:17:46 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:17:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
 <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384305466.85172.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
Your right, now that I think of it.? I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.? Sounds like your the one?to start experimenting with this.? When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine.?
Hank



On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hank,
I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
Alan
 

________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
  


Alan,
That seems logical providing the void is large enough.? I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.? I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.? The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.? Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.? I will bow to your experience though.
Hank



On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan

??

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:


Alan,
>sounds like you bin there done that
>Hank
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>Hi Hank,
>as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.?
>Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
>You need to make a supporting?structure to pour the silicone in to,?
>then on bigger molds, an external support?structure for the silicone mold.?
>Some times the silicone molds need?to be made in two halves.
>So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
>But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
>There is probably not a lot on?a submarine you would?want to mass produce.?
>That's why I like the idea of this?printing process?for one offs.
>Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
>Alan
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Alan,
>>How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.? Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.?? Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>>Hank
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>  
>>Looks good Hank,
>>has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>>You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>>Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>>
>>It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>>Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>>Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>>& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>>printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with?
>>epoxy to other structures.
>>Alan
>>
>> 
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>Sent: 
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>>  
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>look at liquid plastic on e bay.? It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.? This is polyurethane casting resin.? Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.??
>>Hank?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>  
>>Hi Hank,
>>I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>>I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>>In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.?
>>The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>>as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>>Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>>Alan
>>
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Alan,
>>>this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.? The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.? It also does not generate heat when curing.? This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>>Hank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>  
>>>To interested parties,
>>>I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>>fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>>He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>>discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key?for the epoxy, to stop the exterior?
>>>delaminating.
>>>I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>>milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>>So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>>Will do some experimenting.
>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>   
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>    
>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>    
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


    

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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


   

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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 12 21:10:22 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:10:22 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <1384305466.85172.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
 <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384305466.85172.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5B634514-FD94-43A8-A7C2-5254A4B82364@yahoo.com>

Hank,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I hadn't given submarines a thought till a few years ago.
I think the art background & a bit of experience with fibreglass gave
me the confidence to start the project.
I may do a bit of casting between thin shelled non printed items first.
Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:17 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Alan,
> Your right, now that I think of it.  I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.  Sounds like your the one to start experimenting with this.  When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine. 
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hank,
> I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
> inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
> with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
> manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
> would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
> pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
> You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
> resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
> fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
> With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
> surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
> Alan
> 
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
> 
> Alan,
> That seems logical providing the void is large enough.  I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.  I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.  The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.  Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.  I will bow to your experience though.
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
> try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
> a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
> My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
> that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
> release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
> dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
> fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
> or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
> are easier said than done.
> Alan
> 
>   
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Alan,
>> sounds like you bin there done that
>> Hank
>> 
>> 
>> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Hank,
>> as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials. 
>> Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
>> You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to, 
>> then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold. 
>> Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
>> So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
>> But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
>> There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce. 
>> That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
>> Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
>> Alan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Alan,
>>> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
>>> Hank
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Looks good Hank,
>>> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
>>> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
>>> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
>>> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
>>> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
>>> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
>>> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
>>> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
>>> epoxy to other structures.
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>> Sent: 
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>>> 
>>> Alan,
>>> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
>>> Hank 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Hank,
>>> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
>>> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
>>> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
>>> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
>>> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
>>> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Alan,
>>>> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
>>>> Hank
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> To interested parties,
>>>> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
>>>> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
>>>> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
>>>> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
>>>> delaminating.
>>>> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
>>>> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
>>>> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
>>>> Will do some experimenting.
>>>> Alan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com  Wed Nov 13 08:55:21 2013
From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:55:21 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <5B634514-FD94-43A8-A7C2-5254A4B82364@yahoo.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
 <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384305466.85172.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <5B634514-FD94-43A8-A7C2-5254A4B82364@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d7e192574c5841248f1efe11a749d596@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

I would propose this stuff: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_100305_-1?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100305&cid=sc_googlepla&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CPryq7zz4boCFYhcMgodlnEAIA#.UoODI_leaSo

Its epoxy that comes just loaded (really, really loaded) with very long fibers. So much fiber in fact that when you open the can it looks like a bowl of superfine spaghetti. When it hardens it turns into a rock. Snoopy?s saddle tanks are mounted with little bits of stainless hex rod that have blind threaded holes in them, and are set in this material. That?s a pretty high stress application, and so far so good, you can jump up and down on those tanks.

Alan, I don?t dislike the idea at all, but it?s just that the Korts are perhaps the last thing to be made on the new sub, and I?m really focused on more basic tasks at this point. At the moment, I?m fabricating all the bits and pieces for mounting the thrusters on the hull.


Best,

Alec



From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:10 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Hank,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I hadn't given submarines a thought till a few years ago.
I think the art background & a bit of experience with fibreglass gave
me the confidence to start the project.
I may do a bit of casting between thin shelled non printed items first.
Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:17 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
Your right, now that I think of it.  I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.  Sounds like your the one to start experimenting with this.  When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine.
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hank,
I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
Alan

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alan,
That seems logical providing the void is large enough.  I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.  I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.  The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.  Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.  I will bow to your experience though.
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
sounds like you bin there done that
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.
Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to,
then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold.
Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce.
That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Looks good Hank,
has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with
epoxy to other structures.
Alan

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
Sent:
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alan,
look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
To interested parties,
I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior
delaminating.
I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
Will do some experimenting.
Alan





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Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 13 12:46:55 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 06:46:55 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
In-Reply-To: <d7e192574c5841248f1efe11a749d596@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <1384215810.19019.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384216249.65761.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B6E5610B-DF33-4E9D-9FCE-F30C9FF6CE5E@yahoo.com>
 <1384218546.99817.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384227833.45775.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384262838.73115.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <BBDC7627-891D-47AC-9442-71D56314F178@yahoo.com>
 <1384293236.71419.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <28743FC2-5E22-4482-8307-1308B078DB35@yahoo.com>
 <1384302147.86675.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1384304176.53681.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1384305466.85172.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <5B634514-FD94-43A8-A7C2-5254A4B82364@yahoo.com>
 <d7e192574c5841248f1efe11a749d596@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <EAE36E05-3DB8-436B-BF3C-0B602E51FAE8@yahoo.com>

Hi Alec,
That's a polyester resin, I'm not sure that it wouldn't dissolve a thin
shell of ABS. Experiment I guess. You would get better adhesion with
an epoxy product.
I am a fan of West Systems & just buy the epoxy & hardener & modify it
for fairing, glueing, or fibre glassing etc as needed. It saves having several
different products sitting round in pots getting old. And you can modify it
to the exact thickness you want.
I guess none of us are at the point of needing to experiment with this for
now. I am keen to try it later in my build.
Cheers Alan




Sent from my iPad

On 14/11/2013, at 2:55 AM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

> I would propose this stuff: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_100305_-1?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100305&cid=sc_googlepla&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CPryq7zz4boCFYhcMgodlnEAIA#.UoODI_leaSo
>  
> Its epoxy that comes just loaded (really, really loaded) with very long fibers. So much fiber in fact that when you open the can it looks like a bowl of superfine spaghetti. When it hardens it turns into a rock. Snoopy?s saddle tanks are mounted with little bits of stainless hex rod that have blind threaded holes in them, and are set in this material. That?s a pretty high stress application, and so far so good, you can jump up and down on those tanks.
>  
> Alan, I don?t dislike the idea at all, but it?s just that the Korts are perhaps the last thing to be made on the new sub, and I?m really focused on more basic tasks at this point. At the moment, I?m fabricating all the bits and pieces for mounting the thrusters on the hull.
>  
>  
> Best,
> 
> Alec
>  
>  
>  
> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:10 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Hank,
> Thanks for the vote of confidence.
> I hadn't given submarines a thought till a few years ago.
> I think the art background & a bit of experience with fibreglass gave
> me the confidence to start the project.
> I may do a bit of casting between thin shelled non printed items first.
> Alan
>  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 2:17 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> Your right, now that I think of it.  I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.  Sounds like your the one to start experimenting with this.  When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine. 
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hank,
> I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
> inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
> with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
> manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
> would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
> pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
> You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
> resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
> fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
> With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
> surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
> Alan
>  
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Alan,
> That seems logical providing the void is large enough.  I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.  I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.  The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.  Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.  I will bow to your experience though.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
> try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
> a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
> My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
> that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
> release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
> dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
> fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
> or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
> are easier said than done.
> Alan
>  
>   
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> sounds like you bin there done that
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials. 
> Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
> You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to, 
> then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold. 
> Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
> So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
> But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
> There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce. 
> That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
> Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks good Hank,
> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
> epoxy to other structures.
> Alan
>  
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Alan,
> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
> Hank 
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> To interested parties,
> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
> delaminating.
> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
> Will do some experimenting.
> Alan
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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>  
> _______________________________________________
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>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
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>  
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> _______________________________________________
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>  
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Wed Nov 13 15:59:25 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:59:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 3D printing a nano electric motor
Message-ID: <8D0AECA5E9BA560-900-CD9B@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com>


The interesting part is when you see the 3D printing of the rotor, stators, bushings, etc.  This technology has been around for a very long time.  Presented by Harvard University.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey7Emmddf7Y
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Wed Nov 13 16:14:37 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:14:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 3D printing by stereo lithography
Message-ID: <8D0AECC7E4CB460-900-CF49@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com>


The type of 3D printing most of us are familiar with is "fused deposition."  The first link shows an example of stereo lithography which uses a laser to produce an accuracy of 25 microns (.001 in) as the product rises out of the reservoir.  -Jim

http://formlabs.com/products/our-printer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereolithography
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From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com  Thu Nov 14 12:29:43 2013
From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:29:43 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] alcohol welding
Message-ID: <20131114092962.SM00860@[66.162.33.185]>

Hi All ,
???????????????????? Have any of the welders out there seen this device??? or have any first hand experience using it?http://multiplaz.co.za/index_files/Page355.htm
some evaluation:http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2267
Brian
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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Thu Nov 14 22:08:47 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:08:47 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] alcohol welding
In-Reply-To: <20131114092962.SM00860@[66.162.33.185]>
References: <20131114092962.SM00860@[66.162.33.185]>
Message-ID: <BC1A197E12C248E9BE354E7CD288C227@LandNSeaPC>

Never seen it before

Rick

From: brian 
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:29 AM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] alcohol welding

Hi All ,
                     Have any of the welders out there seen this device?   or have any first hand experience using it?

http://multiplaz.co.za/index_files/Page355.htm

some evaluation:

http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2267

Brian



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 15 14:20:36 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 08:20:36 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 3D printing by stereo lithography
In-Reply-To: <8D0AECC7E4CB460-900-CF49@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0AECC7E4CB460-900-CF49@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7BCBBB6D-4132-4CB0-ADC2-A75940672F43@yahoo.com>

This firm in NewYork has a 3d printer for $499-.
It's print size is 6"x6"x6".
I had further thoughts on building larger shell sections out of smaller parts for
the purpose of creating a mold... The parts could be designed with outer flanges
that have holes in one flange & lugs in the mating flange. They could be glued
& clipped together to locate the parts accurately. An easy add on for someone
With CAD skills.
Alan
Sent from my iPad

On 14/11/2013, at 10:14 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:

> The type of 3D printing most of us are familiar with is "fused deposition."  The first link shows an example of stereo lithography which uses a laser to produce an accuracy of 25 microns (.001 in) as the product rises out of the reservoir.  -Jim
>  
> http://formlabs.com/products/our-printer
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereolithography
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 06:14:24 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:14:24 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Wheelchair
Message-ID: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not a big fan of these "TED Talks" because most of them seem pretty dry
(pun intended). But every once in a while you stumble upon one that is
really interesting. Case in point: Submersible Wheelchair!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_707844&feature=iv&src_vid=xMj_P_6H69g&v=PCWIGN3181U
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 16 07:54:23 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 04:54:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Wheelchair
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1384606463.50031.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Very nice. A lot of trial and error to get that?right. Note the passive dive planes are controlled around the lateral axis by small arm movements only. Lots of thought went into that, that lady is quite creative. Nice Kort Nozzles! :)

Joe



On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:16 AM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
  
I'm not a big fan of these "TED Talks" because most of them seem pretty dry (pun intended). But every once in a while you stumble upon one that is really interesting. Case in point: Submersible Wheelchair!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_707844&feature=iv&src_vid=xMj_P_6H69g&v=PCWIGN3181U 

?

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov 16 10:50:12 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:12 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Wheelchair
In-Reply-To: <1384606463.50031.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1384606463.50031.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52879434.9030709@psubs.org>


Seems to fit the qualifications for an ambient wet sub.


From groplias2 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 16 11:13:28 2013
From: groplias2 at yahoo.com (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Wheelchair
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOGJjn+kp0XV1RQeSMPA1hB6MCVG45tj3A3d2XT842u2eF1pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1384618408.43642.YahooMailNeo@web133003.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Very nice idea.? I believe the Speleonaut is the next step in this kind of development. Is also a kind of Wheelchair for diving in caves.
Best wishes
Juergen





Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb am 6:16 Samstag, 16.November 2013:
 
I'm not a big fan of these "TED Talks" because most of them seem pretty dry (pun intended). But every once in a while you stumble upon one that is really interesting. Case in point: Submersible Wheelchair!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_707844&feature=iv&src_vid=xMj_P_6H69g&v=PCWIGN3181U

?

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov 22 10:58:09 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:58:09 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
Message-ID: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>


US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA 
water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format.  This is 
much better than their online viewer because the image scales better on 
a large monitor.  See link below.

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/

From mholt at ohiohills.com  Fri Nov 22 11:07:28 2013
From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:07:28 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <528F8140.5050109@ohiohills.com>

On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>
> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA 
> water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is 
> much better than their online viewer because the image scales better 
> on a large monitor.  See link below.
>
> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
If Kinko's will print them out full sized, we have a winner.

Thanks.


M

From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov 22 11:19:50 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:50 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <528F8140.5050109@ohiohills.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F8140.5050109@ohiohills.com>
Message-ID: <528F8426.4000602@psubs.org>


Shouldn't be a problem, they are public domain.  Printing them on 36 
inch paper provides 1:1 viewing ratio and is suitable for navigation.  
However, I think framing and hanging them makes for a nice nautical 
piece.  Add in the fact that they are constantly updated and newed, plus 
you can access them offshore via a network capable smart-phone and they 
become really handy.  Now, if the CG would just create an "app" 
superimposing your GPS position on a chart.


On 11/22/2013 11:07 AM, Michael Holt wrote:
> On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA 
>> water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is 
>> much better than their online viewer because the image scales better 
>> on a large monitor.  See link below.
>>
>> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
> If Kinko's will print them out full sized, we have a winner.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> M
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov 22 11:26:57 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:26:57 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>


Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.


On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>
> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA 
> water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is 
> much better than their online viewer because the image scales better 
> on a large monitor.  See link below.
>
> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From stephen.fordyce at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 17:18:25 2013
From: stephen.fordyce at gmail.com (Stephen Fordyce)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:18:25 +1100
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org>
	<528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon and all,
If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts
to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range
(they are proprietary charts, very detailed).

Cheers,
Steve
 On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

>
> Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>
>
> On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>
>>
>> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water
>> navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better
>> than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large
>> monitor.  See link below.
>>
>> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 20:28:37 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:28:37 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>

That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in the
Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce
<stephen.fordyce at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Jon and all,
> If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts
> to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range
> (they are proprietary charts, very detailed).
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>  On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>>
>>
>> On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA
>>> water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much
>>> better than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large
>>> monitor.  See link below.
>>>
>>> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov 22 21:17:11 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:17:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Gamma restoration progress.
Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.? The 155 seal is rated for 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.? The original 891 seal is now?out dated.? This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week machining parts for the conversion.? I took this opportunity to change the motor mounting system.? The motor was directly coupled to the propeller shaft.? Now the motor?is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)? That shaft is then coupled to the propeller shaft.? This change allows me to change to any motor without playing with the seal arrangement.? Converting to diesel electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.??
Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.? I have completed the ?hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the hydraulic lines.
I am off work until April? so I can continue the restoration project uninterrupted.? Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
Hank



On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
  
That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.?



On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon and all,
>If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range (they are proprietary charts, very detailed). 
>Cheers,
>Steve
>
>On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>>
>>
>>On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>>
>>>US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large monitor. ?See link below.
>>>
>>>http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Fri Nov 22 21:40:24 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:40:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma Retoration
In-Reply-To: <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0B60C7F01F18C-224C-5D5DE@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>


Hank,
Just took a look at your Gamma project page; sweet!!  Wish I could drop by for a firsthand look.
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts



Gamma restoration progress.
Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.  The 155 seal is rated for 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.  The original 891 seal is now out dated.  This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week machining parts for the conversion.  I took this opportunity to change the motor mounting system.  The motor was directly coupled to the propeller shaft.  Now the motor is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)  That shaft is then coupled to the propeller shaft.  This change allows me to change to any motor without playing with the seal arrangement.  Converting to diesel electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.  
Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.  I have completed the  hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the hydraulic lines.
I am off work until April  so I can continue the restoration project uninterrupted.  Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
Hank
 
 
 
 
 
  On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
  
  

That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S. 



On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon and all,
If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range (they are proprietary charts, very detailed).
Cheers,
Steve


On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:


Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.


On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:


US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large monitor.  See link below.

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




  
 
  
 


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 22 22:20:49 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:20:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385176849.55676.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hank,
sounds like you are doing an awesome job there.
You should be ready to bring Gamma to the next conference.
Hawaii for the winter sounds a smart idea.
I could give you some tips.
Alan


________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
 


Gamma restoration progress.
Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.? The 155 seal is rated for 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.? The original 891 seal is now?out dated.? This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week machining parts for the conversion.? I took this opportunity to change the motor mounting system.? The motor was directly coupled to the propeller shaft.? Now the motor?is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)? That shaft is then coupled to the propeller shaft.? This change allows me to change to any motor without playing with the seal arrangement.? Converting to diesel electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.??
Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.? I have completed the ?hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the hydraulic lines.
I am off work until April? so I can continue the restoration project uninterrupted.? Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
Hank



On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
 
That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.?



On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon and all,
>If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range (they are proprietary charts, very detailed).
>Cheers,
>Steve
>
>On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>>
>>
>>On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>>
>>>US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large monitor. ?See link below.
>>>
>>>http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov 22 22:35:51 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:35:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
In-Reply-To: <1385176849.55676.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1385176849.55676.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385177751.41479.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Jim, Alan,
Thanks', I will only be in Hawaii for a short visit, just warm up and go home :-)? I will bring Gamma to the next conference depending where it is of coarse.
Hank




On Friday, November 22, 2013 8:20:49 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hank,
sounds like you are doing an awesome job there.
You should be ready to bring Gamma to the next conference.
Hawaii for the winter sounds a smart idea.
I could give you some tips.
Alan
 

________________________________
 From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
  


Gamma restoration progress.
Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.? The 155 seal is rated for 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.? The original 891 seal is now?out dated.? This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week machining parts for the conversion.? I took this opportunity to change the motor mounting system.? The motor was directly coupled to the propeller shaft.? Now the motor?is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)? That shaft is then coupled to the propeller shaft.? This change allows me to change to any motor without playing with the seal arrangement.? Converting to diesel electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.??
Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.? I have completed the ?hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the hydraulic lines.
I am off work until April? so I can continue the restoration project uninterrupted.? Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
Hank



On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
  
That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.?



On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon and all,
>If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range (they are proprietary charts, very detailed). 
>Cheers,
>Steve
>
>On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>>
>>
>>On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>>
>>>US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large monitor. ?See link below.
>>>
>>>http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


    

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


   

_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 03:12:14 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:12:14 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma Retoration
In-Reply-To: <8D0B60C7F01F18C-224C-5D5DE@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0B60C7F01F18C-224C-5D5DE@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAHHFyEFe79hiwQ17VCMnhwuwc-Q+YY1THdwxa28B8Wzdt4fSXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Douglas, I downloaded the NOAA chart on my nexus tablet before we took a
boat to Conch reef. We navigated the entire way out and back.. Worked like
a champ. I plan to have it on my sub as std equipment. Especially liked the
lat /long positioning as we traveled for making way points.
David
 On Nov 22, 2013 6:41 PM, <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

> Hank,
> Just took a look at your Gamma project page; sweet!!  Wish I could drop by
> for a firsthand look.
> Jim
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 8:17 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
>
>   Gamma restoration progress.
> Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my
> shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.  The 155 seal is rated for
> 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.  The original 891 seal is now out
> dated.  This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week
> machining parts for the conversion.  I took this opportunity to change the
> motor mounting system.  The motor was directly coupled to the propeller
> shaft.  Now the motor is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with
> its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)  That shaft is then
> coupled to the propeller shaft.  This change allows me to change to any
> motor without playing with the seal arrangement.  Converting to diesel
> electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.
> Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.  I have
> completed the  hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the
> hydraulic lines.
> I am off work until April  so I can continue the restoration project
> uninterrupted.  Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
> Hank
>
>
>   On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <
> spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
>    That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out in
> the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.
>
>
>  On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <
> stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon and all,
> If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download charts
> to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network range
> (they are proprietary charts, very detailed).
> Cheers,
> Steve
>   On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>
>
> On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>
>
> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water
> navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better
> than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large
> monitor.  See link below.
>
> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov 23 11:51:14 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:51:14 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
Message-ID: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>


Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment).  It is 
very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by 
an independent electric motor rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move 
to an electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve 
thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve 
handles sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding 
saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least 
one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a 
large diameter valve to provide quick venting.

Illustration.
The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good 
hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A 
series of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the 
"plunger" is retracted back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed 
side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.

The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker 
AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  
When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC 
piping.  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made 
"Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing 
doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is 
pressure safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.

The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 
to 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded 
rod.  The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket 
tip of the screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor 
and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut 
pulling the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  
Reverse the motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed 
position and seals the MBT.

I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit 
together very well.  Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about 
$10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material 
but this design could be easily scaled.

I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the 
design before I fully prototype it.  Any of you CAD'rs interested in 
creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?

Jon



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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 12:09:03 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:09:03 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma Retoration
In-Reply-To: <CAHHFyEFe79hiwQ17VCMnhwuwc-Q+YY1THdwxa28B8Wzdt4fSXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <528F7F11.9060904@psubs.org> <528F85D1.7040802@psubs.org>
 <CAAzgXiNDAHysgJsTxABENfzMc-kj26fq5XYTYjgx-j+MbXx7-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOGJjnL2P+off+agkgvDVrWZgtTMHwOrSHPmaPwLDA=KjgZAhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385173031.27477.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0B60C7F01F18C-224C-5D5DE@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
 <CAHHFyEFe79hiwQ17VCMnhwuwc-Q+YY1THdwxa28B8Wzdt4fSXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjnJQx0VnmuAYE1t74urP0r6rzVRRUANjPteP_G7zB=MbEg@mail.gmail.com>

That sounds like a pretty good way to do it Dave. We had GPS from a cell
phone, but without charts it isn't much better than a compass. I'll have to
do some exploring on the NOAA site, but that really sounds like the way to
go, especially with lat/long reading. ~ Douglas S.


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 3:12 AM, David Colombo <seaquestor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Douglas, I downloaded the NOAA chart on my nexus tablet before we took a
> boat to Conch reef. We navigated the entire way out and back.. Worked like
> a champ. I plan to have it on my sub as std equipment. Especially liked the
> lat /long positioning as we traveled for making way points.
> David
>  On Nov 22, 2013 6:41 PM, <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hank,
>> Just took a look at your Gamma project page; sweet!!  Wish I could drop
>> by for a firsthand look.
>> Jim
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 8:17 pm
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PDF navigation charts
>>
>>   Gamma restoration progress.
>> Under the advice of Chesterton seal experts, I have decided to upgrade my
>> shaft seal to a 155 Chesterton cartridge seal.  The 155 seal is rated for
>> 600psi and cost about 1,700 taxes in.  The original 891 seal is now out
>> dated.  This upgrade was a big effort, I have spent the entire week
>> machining parts for the conversion.  I took this opportunity to change the
>> motor mounting system.  The motor was directly coupled to the propeller
>> shaft.  Now the motor is coupled to a shaft that has the seal on it with
>> its own bearings.(took three tries to make it perfect)  That shaft is then
>> coupled to the propeller shaft.  This change allows me to change to any
>> motor without playing with the seal arrangement.  Converting to diesel
>> electric becomes very easy now if I decide to go that rout.
>> Last week I fabricated the first parts to make the arm jettison.  I have
>> completed the  hydraulic penetrator and the hydraulic sheer to cut the
>> hydraulic lines.
>> I am off work until April  so I can continue the restoration project
>> uninterrupted.  Well maybe a trip to Hawaii when it gets real cold.
>> Hank
>>
>>
>>   On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:28:58 PM, Douglas Suhr <
>> spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:
>>    That kind of service would have been great to have when we were out
>> in the Whaler trying to locate pickles reef! ~ Douglas S.
>>
>>
>>  On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Stephen Fordyce <
>> stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jon and all,
>> If you have a smartphone, you can use the Navionics app to download
>> charts to your phone and then see your GPS position on them, out of network
>> range (they are proprietary charts, very detailed).
>> Cheers,
>> Steve
>>   On 23/11/2013 3:27 AM, "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry....that's NOAA, not the coast guard.
>>
>>
>> On 11/22/2013 10:58 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>>
>>
>> US Coast Guard just came out with a great new feature for their USA water
>> navigation charts, freely downloadable in PDF format. This is much better
>> than their online viewer because the image scales better on a large
>> monitor.  See link below.
>>
>> http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pdfcharts/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 12:09:50 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:09:50 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>
References: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <CABECYQ5-9KO+bWH0RyTXDtbX6_ut3=-6D3_Zh3U5RMabu+hr8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon,

Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable
with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for reliability. This is
after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the sub that has to be
the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to be electric,
then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The magnet
would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed
type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.

What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But
I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft,
sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore
valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them
instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the
sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles.


Best,

Alec


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

>
> Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment).  It is
> very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an
> independent electric motor rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an
> electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve
> thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles
> sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for
> additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third,
> my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to
> provide quick venting.
>
> Illustration.
> The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good
> hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series
> of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is
> retracted back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have
> a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
>
> The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker
> AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).
>  When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.
>  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made
> "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing
> doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure
> safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
>
> The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to
> 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.
>  The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the
> screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and coupling
> nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the
> piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor
> and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT.
>
> I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit
> together very well.  Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20
> (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this
> design could be easily scaled.
>
> I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design
> before I fully prototype it.  Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a
> nice 3-D drawing for me?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Sat Nov 23 12:35:29 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:35:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ5-9KO+bWH0RyTXDtbX6_ut3=-6D3_Zh3U5RMabu+hr8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>
 <CABECYQ5-9KO+bWH0RyTXDtbX6_ut3=-6D3_Zh3U5RMabu+hr8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385228129.93010.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Jon,
I have to agree with Alec.? I would not use an electric motor.? If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.?? I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov? and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.?? Electric solenoids are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately. 
Hank



On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
  
Hi Jon,

Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet. 

What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles.? 


Best,

Alec



On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:


>Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment). ?It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than pneumatic. ?My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting.
>
>Illustration.
>The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store. ?The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling. ?A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to the motor side. ?The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
>
>The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG. ?It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc). ?When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping. ?The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment. ?Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
>
>The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic. ?It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod. ?The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding. ?As the motor and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent. ?Reverse the motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT.
>
>I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well. ?Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US). ?PVC of course, is cheap. ?I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily scaled.
>
>I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it. ?Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?
>
>Jon
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 12:48:08 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:48:08 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <1385228129.93010.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>
 <CABECYQ5-9KO+bWH0RyTXDtbX6_ut3=-6D3_Zh3U5RMabu+hr8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385228129.93010.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABECYQ6n2MKYByUMjFigi1-m7UKO642ZC63G_U3amku7nrNX9Q@mail.gmail.com>

One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really
accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics
challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a
tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a
tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive
herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when
she's under tow, etc.

:)

Alec


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>wrote:

> Jon,
> I have to agree with Alec.  I would not use an electric motor.  If it has
> to be electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.   I have personally
> used solenoid valves on my salvage rov  and in about a million dives we
> never had a single issue except for freezing when the rov surfaced in the
> winter.   Electric solenoids are also safe in your case because you have
> multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately.
> Hank
>
>
>   On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec Smyth <
> alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Hi Jon,
>
> Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more
> comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for
> reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the
> sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had
> to be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor.
> The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally
> closed type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.
>
> What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But
> I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft,
> sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore
> valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them
> instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the
> sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment).  It is
> very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an
> independent electric motor rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an
> electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve
> thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles
> sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for
> additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third,
> my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to
> provide quick venting.
>
> Illustration.
> The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good
> hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series
> of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is
> retracted back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have
> a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
>
> The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker
> AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).
>  When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.
>  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made
> "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing
> doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure
> safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
>
> The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to
> 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.
>  The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the
> screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and coupling
> nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the
> piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor
> and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT.
>
> I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit
> together very well.  Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20
> (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this
> design could be easily scaled.
>
> I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design
> before I fully prototype it.  Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a
> nice 3-D drawing for me?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From freepetesub at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 23 14:46:46 2013
From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve
Message-ID: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I found these 3 way valves that have an off position. I want to go with the Vent/Off/Fill idea I mentions a few months back. I'll have a 1st stage reg on my HP tanks. the valves are rated 600 psi WOG is that high enough ? The K350 spec'ed one are 1000 psi. Any thoughts ?


On Sat, 11/23/13, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 9:48 AM
 
 One more thing... I'm not
 sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if
 you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics
 challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For
 surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact
 you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a
 nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive
 herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a
 few hours, when she's under tow, etc.?
 
 :)
 Alec ?
 
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at
 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
 wrote:
 
 
 Jon,I have to agree with
 Alec.? I would not use an electric motor.? If it has to be
 electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.?? I have
 personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov? and in
 about a million dives we never had a single issue except for
 freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.?? Electric
 solenoids are also safe in your case because you have
 multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately.
 
 Hank 
  
  
     On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM,
 Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
     Hi
 Jon,
 Personally if I used a
 remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable
 with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for
 reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the
 one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of
 all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then
 I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor.
 The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was
 of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if
 the electrons got wet.
 
 
 What I don't like about
 the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a
 fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the
 shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original.
 If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail,
 which is to put round handles on them instead of straight
 ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the
 sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the
 handles.?
 
 
 
 Best,
 Alec
 
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon
 Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see
 attachment). ?It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed
 us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor
 rather than pneumatic. ?My goal is to move to an electric
 or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve
 thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't
 like the valve handles sticking in through the conning
 tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional
 buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve;
 third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a
 large diameter valve to provide quick venting.
 
 
 
 
 
 Illustration.
 
 The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at
 any good hardware store. ?The square main body is a 4-inch
 PVC coupling. ?A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the
 end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted
 back to the motor side. ?The "stop" on the closed
 side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
 
 
 
 
 
 The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as
 Black & Decker AS6NG. ?It has plenty of torque,
 reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc). ?When the body is
 removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC
 piping. ?The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using
 a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment. ?Oil
 compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at
 depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe
 to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
 
 
 
 
 
 The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum
 or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic. ?It is attached to the coupling
 nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod. ?The coupling nut is
 permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the
 screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding. ?As the motor
 and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the
 coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and
 allowing the MBT to vent. ?Reverse the motor and the piston
 is forced back down to the closed position and seals the
 MBT.
 
 
 
 
 
 I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing
 and they fit together very well. ?Cost of battery operated
 screwdriver is about $10-20 (US). ?PVC of course, is cheap.
 ?I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be
 easily scaled.
 
 
 
 
 
 I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues
 with the design before I fully prototype it. ?Any of you
 CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for
 me?
 
 
 
 
 
 Jon
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
    
    
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Sat Nov 23 16:30:35 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:30:35 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ6n2MKYByUMjFigi1-m7UKO642ZC63G_U3amku7nrNX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5290DD02.2030703@psubs.org>
 <CABECYQ5-9KO+bWH0RyTXDtbX6_ut3=-6D3_Zh3U5RMabu+hr8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385228129.93010.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CABECYQ6n2MKYByUMjFigi1-m7UKO642ZC63G_U3amku7nrNX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6C920322A9FA4F4C916A612CBCABA8D9@LandNSeaPC>

I would also be concerned about not being able to get a GOOD seal when closed. Also I imagine that you would want to keep running the motor for a bit after the valve has seated to make sure there is a bit of pressure against the 0 ring and I am wondering if that would cause the breaker to pop?
I like the idea of being able to dump the MBT?s fast though as I am in the same boat, pun intended, and wish Kittredge would have upgraded the size of the pipe vents on the plans.

Rick

From: Alec Smyth 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:48 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when she's under tow, etc.  

:)

Alec  



On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

  Jon,
  I have to agree with Alec.  I would not use an electric motor.  If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.   I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov  and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric solenoids are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately. 
  Hank



  On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

  Hi Jon, 

  Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.

  What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles. 


  Best,

  Alec



  On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:


    Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting.

    Illustration.
    The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.

    The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.

    The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT.

    I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily scaled.

    I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?

    Jon




    _______________________________________________
    Personal_Submersibles mailing list
    Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
    http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles





  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 23 16:54:43 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:54:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
Message-ID: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>



Alec,
As for the slow-motion dive, it seems it would be a good idea to have a threaded plug or something similar to seal the vents when you have to leave the sub in the water unattended.  Your thoughts?
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve




I would also be concerned about not being able to get a GOOD seal when closed. Also I imagine that you would want to keep running the motor for a bit after the valve has seated to make sure there is a bit of pressure against the 0 ring and I am wondering if that would cause the breaker to pop?
I like the idea of being able to dump the MBT?s fast though as I am in the same boat, pun intended, and wish Kittredge would have upgraded the size of the pipe vents on the plans.
 
Rick

 

From: Alec Smyth 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:48 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

 
One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when she's under tow, etc.  
 
:)

Alec  




On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

  
  
  
Jon,
  
I have to agree with Alec.  I would not use an electric   motor.  If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid   valves.   I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage   rov  and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for   freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric solenoids   are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire   them separately. 
  
Hank
  
  
  


  
  
  
On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec   Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

  
  
  
  
Hi Jon,   
 
  
Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more   comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for   reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the   sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to   be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The   magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed   type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.
  
 
  
What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But   I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft,   sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore   valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead   of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't   dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles. 
  
 
  
 
  
Best,
  

Alec
  


  
  
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see     attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in     Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than     pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement     for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull design for various reasons.     First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower;     second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean     adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big     and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting.

Illustration.
The valve is made out     of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store.  The     square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes     drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to     the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to     provide an air-tight seal.

The motor is a cheap     electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has     plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body     is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.  The     rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type     attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture     at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond     the depths I will be diving.

The piston will be     1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.      It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The     coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the     screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and     coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling     the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the     motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals     the MBT.

I have already prototyped the motor     and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery     operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is     cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily     scaled.

I see lots of pros; looking for cons     and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any     of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?

Jon




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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Sat Nov 23 17:30:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 23 Nov 2013 22:30 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve security plug
In-Reply-To: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1VkLje-0qyO9I0@fwd01.t-online.de>

Hi Jim, thats exact was the Euronaut has. Its called "Habour saftey plug"   

But it prevent also diving with open hatch if somebody on the controls play with the wrong buttons. 

The security plug has a small tread hole with a screw in- so you unscrew first this small one. 
Just to make sure that no air rush out and the vale is close before you remove the big harbour plug.. 

Its stored during the dive on the outside in the sail. 
So a diver or swimemr can close the tank in case the vale is 
blocked after a dive in condition open or partly open. 

vbr Carsten - I add a picture. 

<jimtoddpsub at aol.com> schrieb: 
Alec,
As for the slow-motion dive, it seems it would be a good idea to have a threaded plug or something similar to seal the vents when you have to leave the sub in the water unattended.  Your thoughts?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve


I would also be concerned about not being able to get a GOOD seal when closed. Also I imagine that you would want to keep running the motor for a bit after the valve has seated to make sure there is a bit of pressure against the 0 ring and I am wondering if that would cause the breaker to pop?
I like the idea of being able to dump the MBTs fast though as I am in the same boat, pun intended, and wish Kittredge would have upgraded the size of the pipe vents on the plans.

Rick

From: Alec Smyth 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:48 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when she's under tow, etc.  

:)

Alec  



On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

Jon,
I have to agree with Alec.  I would not use an electric motor.  If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.   I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov  and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric solenoids are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately. 
Hank



On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon, 

Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.

What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles. 


Best,

Alec



On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:


Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting.

Illustration.
The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.

The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving.

The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT.

I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily scaled.

I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?

Jon




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-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 23 18:39:05 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 18:39:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve security plug
In-Reply-To: <1VkLje-0qyO9I0@fwd01.t-online.de>
References: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
 <1VkLje-0qyO9I0@fwd01.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <8D0B6BC549FF38C-224C-655F8@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>


Hi, Carsten,
When Alec brought up the subject I first thought of Euronaut since it spends time in the water unattended much more than would our small subs.  I presumed you had some type of safety system.  Thanks for sharing that and the picture.
Kind regards,
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: MerlinSub <MerlinSub at t-online.de>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 4:32 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve security plug


Hi Jim, thats exact was the Euronaut has. Its called "Habour saftey plug"   

But it prevent also diving with open hatch if somebody on the controls play with the wrong buttons. 

The security plug has a small tread hole with a screw in- so you unscrew first this small one. 
Just to make sure that no air rush out and the vale is close before you remove the big harbour plug.. 

Its stored during the dive on the outside in the sail. 
So a diver or swimemr can close the tank in case the vale is 
blocked after a dive in condition open or partly open. 

vbr Carsten - I add a picture. 

<jimtoddpsub at aol.com> schrieb:

Alec,
As for the slow-motion dive, it seems it would be a good idea to have a threaded plug or something similar to seal the vents when you have to leave the sub in the water unattended.  Your thoughts?
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Land N Sea <landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve




I would also be concerned about not being able to get a GOOD seal when closed. Also I imagine that you would want to keep running the motor for a bit after the valve has seated to make sure there is a bit of pressure against the 0 ring and I am wondering if that would cause the breaker to pop?
I like the idea of being able to dump the MBTs fast though as I am in the same boat, pun intended, and wish Kittredge would have upgraded the size of the pipe vents on the plans.
 
Rick

 

From: Alec Smyth 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:48 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

 
One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when she's under tow, etc.  
 
:)

Alec  




On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

  
  
  
Jon,
  
I have to agree with Alec.  I would not use an electric   motor.  If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid   valves.   I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage   rov  and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for   freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric solenoids   are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire   them separately. 
  
Hank
  
  
  


  
  
  
On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec   Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

  
  
  
  
Hi Jon,   
 
  
Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more   comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for   reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the   sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to   be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor. The   magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed   type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet.
  
 
  
What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But   I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft,   sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore   valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead   of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't   dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles. 
  
 
  
 
  
Best,
  

Alec
  


  
  
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see     attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in     Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than     pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement     for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull design for various reasons.     First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower;     second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean     adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big     and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting.

Illustration.
The valve is made out     of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store.  The     square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes     drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to     the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to     provide an air-tight seal.

The motor is a cheap     electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has     plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body     is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping.  The     rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type     attachment.  Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture     at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond     the depths I will be diving.

The piston will be     1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.      It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The     coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the     screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor and     coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling     the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the     motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals     the MBT.

I have already prototyped the motor     and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery     operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is     cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily     scaled.

I see lots of pros; looking for cons     and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any     of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me?

Jon




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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


  
 


  
 
  
_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



 


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-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org

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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov 23 19:31:23 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:31:23 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <529148DB.7090709@psubs.org>


A 600psi valve should be fine on the 350 as long as you keep any static 
pressure for the fill side a safety margin below, perhaps no higher than 
350psi.  A first stage on your hp tank indicates a flowing pressure of 
150psi or there abouts (the first stage standard).  The bigger issue you 
have to deal with using a typical first stage is that the air pressure 
is close to equalizing the pressure at 337 feet.  If you push the vessel 
to it's limit you could end up in a situation whereby you can't blow 
ballast because the outside pressure equals or is greater to that being 
put out by the first stage.


On 11/23/2013 2:46 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote:
> I found these 3 way valves that have an off position. I want to go with the Vent/Off/Fill idea I mentions a few months back. I'll have a 1st stage reg on my HP tanks. the valves are rated 600 psi WOG is that high enough ? The K350 spec'ed one are 1000 psi. Any thoughts ?
>
>
> On Sat, 11/23/13, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
>   To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>   Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 9:48 AM
>   
>   One more thing... I'm not
>   sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if
>   you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics
>   challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For
>   surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact
>   you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a
>   nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive
>   herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a
>   few hours, when she's under tow, etc.
>   
>   :)
>   Alec
>   
>   On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at
>   12:35 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
>   wrote:
>   
>   
>   Jon,I have to agree with
>   Alec.  I would not use an electric motor.  If it has to be
>   electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.   I have
>   personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov  and in
>   about a million dives we never had a single issue except for
>   freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric
>   solenoids are also safe in your case because you have
>   multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately.
>   
>   Hank
>    
>    
>       On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM,
>   Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
>   wrote:
>   
>       Hi
>   Jon,
>   Personally if I used a
>   remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable
>   with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for
>   reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the
>   one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of
>   all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then
>   I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor.
>   The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was
>   of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if
>   the electrons got wet.
>   
>   
>   What I don't like about
>   the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a
>   fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the
>   shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original.
>   If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail,
>   which is to put round handles on them instead of straight
>   ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the
>   sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the
>   handles.
>   
>   
>   
>   Best,
>   Alec
>   
>   On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon
>   Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see
>   attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed
>   us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor
>   rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric
>   or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve
>   thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't
>   like the valve handles sticking in through the conning
>   tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional
>   buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve;
>   third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a
>   large diameter valve to provide quick venting.
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   Illustration.
>   
>   The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at
>   any good hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch
>   PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the
>   end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted
>   back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed
>   side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as
>   Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque,
>   reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body is
>   removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC
>   piping.  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using
>   a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil
>   compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at
>   depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe
>   to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum
>   or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling
>   nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The coupling nut is
>   permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the
>   screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor
>   and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the
>   coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and
>   allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor and the piston
>   is forced back down to the closed position and seals the
>   MBT.
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing
>   and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery operated
>   screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.
>    I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be
>   easily scaled.
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues
>   with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any of you
>   CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for
>   me?
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   Jon
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   _______________________________________________
>   
>   Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>   
>   Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>   
>   http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   _______________________________________________
>   Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>   Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>   
>   http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>   
>   
>      
>      
>   _______________________________________________
>   
>   Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>   
>   Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>   
>   http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>   
>   _______________________________________________
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>   Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>   http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Sat Nov 23 19:47:24 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:47:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <529148DB.7090709@psubs.org>
References: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529148DB.7090709@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1385254044.1329.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Jon,
I think a first stage regulator is 140psi above ambient, if the regulator is in the water it will always be 140 over ambient.
Hank



On Saturday, November 23, 2013 5:31:23 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

A 600psi valve should be fine on the 350 as long as you keep any
      static pressure for the fill side a safety margin below, perhaps
      no higher than 350psi.? A first stage on your hp tank indicates a
      flowing pressure of 150psi or there abouts (the first stage
      standard).? The bigger issue you have to deal with using a typical
      first stage is that the air pressure is close to equalizing the
      pressure at 337 feet.? If you push the vessel to it's limit you
      could end up in a situation whereby you can't blow ballast because
      the outside pressure equals or is greater to that being put out by
      the first stage.? 



On 11/23/2013 2:46 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote:

I found these 3 way valves that have an off position. I want to go with the Vent/Off/Fill idea I mentions a few months back. I'll have a 1st stage reg on my HP tanks. the valves are rated 600 psi WOG is that high enough ? The K350 spec'ed one are 1000 psi. Any thoughts ? On Sat, 11/23/13, Alec Smyth mailto:alecsmyth at gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 9:48 AM One more thing... I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a few hours, when she's under tow, etc.? :) Alec ?
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, hank pronk mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: Jon,I have to agree with Alec.? I would not use an electric motor.? If it has to be electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.?? I have personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov? and in about a million dives we never had a single issue except for freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.?? Electric solenoids are also safe in your case because you have multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately. Hank  On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM, Alec Smyth mailto:alecsmyth at gmail.com wrote: Hi Jon, Personally if I used a remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of
 a motor. The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if the electrons got wet. What I don't like about the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original. If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail, which is to put round handles on them instead of straight ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the handles.? Best, Alec On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon Wallace mailto:jonw at psubs.org wrote: Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see attachment). ?It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor rather than pneumatic. ?My goal is to move to an electric or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve thru-hull
 design for various reasons. First, I don't like the valve handles sticking in through the conning tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve; third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a large diameter valve to provide quick venting. Illustration. The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at any good hardware store. ?The square main body is a 4-inch PVC coupling. ?A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted back to the motor side. ?The "stop" on the closed side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal. The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as Black & Decker AS6NG. ?It has plenty of torque, reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc). ?When the body is removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC piping. ?The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using a home-made "Blue-Globe" type
 attachment. ?Oil compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe to well beyond the depths I will be diving. The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic. ?It is attached to the coupling nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod. ?The coupling nut is permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding. ?As the motor and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and allowing the MBT to vent. ?Reverse the motor and the piston is forced back down to the closed position and seals the MBT. I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing and they fit together very well. ?Cost of battery operated screwdriver is about $10-20 (US). ?PVC of course, is cheap. ?I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be easily scaled. I see lots of
 pros; looking for cons and potential issues with the design before I fully prototype it. ?Any of you CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for me? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles   


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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov 23 19:52:49 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:52:49 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <1385254044.1329.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529148DB.7090709@psubs.org>
 <1385254044.1329.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52914DE1.6050303@psubs.org>


Yes, good point...my caution only applies to tanks within the cabin.


On 11/23/2013 7:47 PM, hank pronk wrote:
> Jon,
> I think a first stage regulator is 140psi above ambient, if the 
> regulator is in the water it will always be 140 over ambient.
> Hank
>

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From subvet596 at optonline.net  Sat Nov 23 21:50:27 2013
From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 02:50:27 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1524064277-1385261483-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1048777265-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>

Alec:

The problem with boats left in the water for an extended period is expansion of heated air during the day, than cooling later in th day which contracts the air and the boat to settle deeper in the water. One solution is to add a ball valve to the flood port (inlet) which will prevent the loss of air volume. 

On your boat if I remember right your. M b t's are open at the bottom. Perhaps a fitted plastic plate with a rubber gasket and attached with a bunge cord might help keep water out.

John K.
(203) 414-1000
Project 765 


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com
Sender: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:54:43 
To: <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



From alecsmyth at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 23:24:13 2013
From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 23:24:13 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <1524064277-1385261483-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1048777265-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>
References: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
 <1524064277-1385261483-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1048777265-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>
Message-ID: <CABECYQ5iHS5T50Wzd73PVtCyEysf6EAHjE8bCotwhomPnWLtLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

Snoopy never stays in the water more than a little while, she's a trailer
toy. Interesting things though the folks with big boats need to think
about! This particular one amazes me, in that while I can understand the
effect in theory... is it really something with a noticeable impact?


Best,

Alec


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 9:50 PM, <subvet596 at optonline.net> wrote:

> Alec:
>
> The problem with boats left in the water for an extended period is
> expansion of heated air during the day, than cooling later in th day which
> contracts the air and the boat to settle deeper in the water. One solution
> is to add a ball valve to the flood port (inlet) which will prevent the
> loss of air volume.
>
> On your boat if I remember right your. M b t's are open at the bottom.
> Perhaps a fitted plastic plate with a rubber gasket and attached with a
> bunge cord might help keep water out.
>
> John K.
> (203) 414-1000
> Project 765
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com
> Sender: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org>
> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:54:43
> To: <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 23 23:47:54 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 20:47:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ5iHS5T50Wzd73PVtCyEysf6EAHjE8bCotwhomPnWLtLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385268474.29277.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

What style valve did Vance display in Islamorada? Inlet / outlet size, vendor?<br/><br/>It seems to me that remotely actuated pneumatic MBT valves would be ideal in a vehicle that already has an HP air system.<br/><br/><br/>Joe<a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS"><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>
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From subvet596 at optonline.net  Sun Nov 24 06:02:14 2013
From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:02:14 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <CABECYQ5iHS5T50Wzd73PVtCyEysf6EAHjE8bCotwhomPnWLtLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8D0B6ADC0A50A62-224C-64D28@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
 <1524064277-1385261483-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1048777265-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>
 <CABECYQ5iHS5T50Wzd73PVtCyEysf6EAHjE8bCotwhomPnWLtLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1227432125-1385290976-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1318448862-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>

Alec:

The boats I served on reqUired at least one or more low pressure blows per day if hot enough.

John K.
(203) 414-1000 
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
Sender: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 23:24:13 
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve

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From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net  Sun Nov 24 13:26:31 2013
From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 08:26:31 -1000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve
In-Reply-To: <1385254044.1329.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385236006.58537.YahooMailBasic@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529148DB.7090709@psubs.org>
 <1385254044.1329.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B37E7B3EFC144FFEB0792B071E3A9F78@LandNSeaPC>

That is also my understanding.

Rick

From: hank pronk 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 2:47 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speaking of MBT valve

Jon,
I think a first stage regulator is 140psi above ambient, if the regulator is in the water it will always be 140 over ambient.
Hank



On Saturday, November 23, 2013 5:31:23 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:


A 600psi valve should be fine on the 350 as long as you keep any static pressure for the fill side a safety margin below, perhaps no higher than 350psi.  A first stage on your hp tank indicates a flowing pressure of 150psi or there abouts (the first stage standard).  The bigger issue you have to deal with using a typical first stage is that the air pressure is close to equalizing the pressure at 337 feet.  If you push the vessel to it's limit you could end up in a situation whereby you can't blow ballast because the outside pressure equals or is greater to that being put out by the first stage.  



On 11/23/2013 2:46 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote:

I found these 3 way valves that have an off position. I want to go with the Vent/Off/Fill idea I mentions a few months back. I'll have a 1st stage reg on my HP tanks. the valves are rated 600 psi WOG is that high enough ? The K350 spec'ed one are 1000 psi. Any thoughts ?


On Sat, 11/23/13, Alec Smyth mailto:alecsmyth at gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org
 Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 9:48 AM
 
 One more thing... I'm not
 sure how easy it would be to get a really accurate seal if
 you make the body from PVC. I always find plastics
 challenging when it comes to machining tolerances. For
 surfacing the sub a tiny valve leak is no problem, in fact
 you wouldn't even notice it. But a tiny leak is a
 nuisance, because the sub will have a tendency to dive
 herself in slow motion when you leave her at the dock for a
 few hours, when she's under tow, etc.  :)
 Alec   On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at
 12:35 PM, hank pronk mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca
 wrote:
 
 
 Jon,I have to agree with
 Alec.  I would not use an electric motor.  If it has to be
 electric, I would also go with solenoid valves.   I have
 personally used solenoid valves on my salvage rov  and in
 about a million dives we never had a single issue except for
 freezing when the rov surfaced in the winter.   Electric
 solenoids are also safe in your case because you have
 multiple mbt's and you should wire them separately.
 
 Hank 
  
  
     On Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:10:28 AM,
 Alec Smyth mailto:alecsmyth at gmail.com
 wrote:
 
     Hi
 Jon,
 Personally if I used a
 remotely operated valve I'd be much more comfortable
 with actuating it pneumatically than electrically, for
 reliability. This is after all the MBT valve, arguably the
 one thing on the sub that has to be the most reliable of
 all. If for some reason it just had to be electric, then
 I'd suggest using an electromagnet instead of a motor.
 The magnet would act against a spring so that the valve was
 of the normally closed type, and you could still surface if
 the electrons got wet.
 
 
 What I don't like about
 the K valves is the way George mounted them. But I'm a
 fan of the approach if you add a proper through-hull for the
 shaft, sealed with O rings instead of RTV like the original.
 If using a large bore valve, I'd add one more detail,
 which is to put round handles on them instead of straight
 ones. That's so that someone getting in or out of the
 sub won't dive it by snagging their clothes on the
 handles.  Best,
 Alec
 
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jon
 Wallace mailto:jonw at psubs.org wrote:
 
 
 
 
 Looking for feedback on this MBT poppet design (see
 attachment).  It is very similar to the poppet Vance showed
 us in Islamorada but driven by an independent electric motor
 rather than pneumatic.  My goal is to move to an electric
 or pneumatic replacement for the Kittredge MBT ball valve
 thru-hull design for various reasons. First, I don't
 like the valve handles sticking in through the conning
 tower; second, I am adding saddle tanks for additional
 buoyancy which would mean adding at least one more valve;
 third, my saddle tanks are going to be big and I want a
 large diameter valve to provide quick venting.
 
 
 
 
 
 Illustration.
 
 The valve is made out of PVC plumbing material available at
 any good hardware store.  The square main body is a 4-inch
 PVC coupling.  A series of 1-inch holes drilled into the
 end allow venting when the "plunger" is retracted
 back to the motor side.  The "stop" on the closed
 side would have a gasket to provide an air-tight seal.
 
 
 
 
 
 The motor is a cheap electric screwdriver motor such as
 Black & Decker AS6NG.  It has plenty of torque,
 reversible, and is low power (2-3vdc).  When the body is
 removed the "guts" fit nicely into 1.5 inch PVC
 piping.  The rotating socket tip will be waterproofed using
 a home-made "Blue-Globe" type attachment.  Oil
 compensation will ensure the housing doesn't fracture at
 depth although theoretically 1.5 inch PVC is pressure safe
 to well beyond the depths I will be diving.
 
 
 
 
 
 The piston will be 1/4 inch thick (6mm) and can be aluminum
 or even 1/4 to 3/8 acrylic.  It is attached to the coupling
 nut by a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  The coupling nut is
 permanently attached to the rotating socket tip of the
 screwdriver by either epoxy or light welding.  As the motor
 and coupling nut turns, the threaded rod is drawn into the
 coupling nut pulling the piston toward the motor and
 allowing the MBT to vent.  Reverse the motor and the piston
 is forced back down to the closed position and seals the
 MBT.
 
 
 
 
 
 I have already prototyped the motor and it's PVC housing
 and they fit together very well.  Cost of battery operated
 screwdriver is about $10-20 (US).  PVC of course, is cheap.  I am looking at 4-inch material but this design could be
 easily scaled.
 
 
 
 
 
 I see lots of pros; looking for cons and potential issues
 with the design before I fully prototype it.  Any of you
 CAD'rs interested in creating a nice 3-D drawing for
 me?
 
 
 
 
 
 Jon
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
    
    
 _______________________________________________
 
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
   

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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 25 18:33:50 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:33:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
Message-ID: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi,
I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf

Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
would be interesting to know.
I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.

Jon if you don't like this idea email me
Alan
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov 25 18:52:00 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:52:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385423520.79060.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
I would be interested to hear the rules as you go.? 
Hank



On Monday, November 25, 2013 4:34:06 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi,
I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf

Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
would be interesting to know.
I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.

Jon if you don't like this idea email me
Alan
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 19:41:41 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:41:41 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385423520.79060.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385423520.79060.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjn+XAa=0TSR90EWHDj5MNbrs8gMeT0xF0S4gd+V2dP18+A@mail.gmail.com>

Alan, I would also be interested in learning more about GL classification
and especially how it compares with ABS classification. I don't know much
about either so I would definitely benefit from discussion pertaining to
your findings. ~ Douglas S.


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 6:52 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>wrote:

> Alan,
> I would be interested to hear the rules as you go.
> Hank
>
>
>   On Monday, November 25, 2013 4:34:06 PM, Alan James <
> alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  Hi,
> I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for
> classification
> of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
> http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf
> Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
> There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
> may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my
> understanding
> is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
> would be interesting to know.
> I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.
> Jon if you don't like this idea email me[image: *:) happy]
> Alan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From jonw at psubs.org  Mon Nov 25 21:37:33 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:37:33 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>


I don't have any issues with it as long as the discussion remains 
objective.  I have been reminded that we have a working relationship 
with ABS that we've worked hard to build up over the years and don't 
want to jeopardize.  However, we would certainly entertain and approve 
of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others that might 
want a working relationship with PSUBS. I would also note that we do 
have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources 
& Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG 
(hopefully still current).

I've never personally looked at certification as "us vs them". Kittredge 
used both ABS and Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.  In fact, Kittredge 
also used Nippon once.  I believe the choice usually comes down to 
financials rather than one set of rules being better than another.

If you think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of 
a particular certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list 
instead of the public list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:
> Hi,
> I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for 
> classification
> of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to 
> them.
> http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf 
> <http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf>
> Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
> There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
> may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my 
> understanding
> is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
> would be interesting to know.
> I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.
> Jon if you don't like this idea email me*:) happy
> Alan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 25 22:52:15 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:52:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Jon,
I have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets elsewhere.
They could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but for some reason I've started on G.L..

I doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many Psubbers?
wanting to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there may
be some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L., &
able to comment on discrepancies.?
I think Jim & David were interested in following classification guidelines.
How far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we went
over ABS instead???
Regards Alan


________________________________
 From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
 



I don't have any issues with it as long as the discussion remains
      objective.? I have been reminded that we have a working
      relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up over the
      years and don't want to jeopardize.? However, we would certainly
      entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well,
      and any others that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.?
      I would also note that we do have links to GL on our website right
      now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG (hopefully still current).

I've never personally looked at certification as "us vs them".?
      Kittredge used both ABS and Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.? In
      fact, Kittredge also used Nippon once.? I believe the choice
      usually comes down to financials rather than one set of rules
      being better than another.

If you think there's a propensity for the discussion to get
      critical of a particular certifying authority let's have it on the
      member-only list instead of the public list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

Hi,
>I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
>of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
>http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/ GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf
>
>Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
>There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
>may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
>is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
>would be interesting to know.
>I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.
>
>Jon if you don't like this idea email me
>Alan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From phil at philnuytten.com  Mon Nov 18 23:42:20 2013
From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:42:20 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>

All:
Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors ? Lloyds Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,  Det Norske Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of these classifying agencies use as their reference ?Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy ? section 8?, commonly referred to as ?PVHO8?. Several of these agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial ?Plan Approval? and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the office who will make the final decision relative to your subs classification  -relative to where their local representatives offices are located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others witnessing and certs. 
Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class ? particularly if you are only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread our costs over a number of subs by getting ?type approval? so much of the initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you don?t change the design.
Phil

From: Alan James 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
I have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets elsewhere.
They could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but for some reason I've started on G.L..

I doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many Psubbers 
wanting to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there may
be some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L., &
able to comment on discrepancies. 
I think Jim & David were interested in following classification guidelines.
How far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we went
over ABS instead???
Regards Alan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



I don't have any issues with it as long as the discussion remains objective.  I have been reminded that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up over the years and don't want to jeopardize.  However, we would certainly entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.  I would also note that we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG (hopefully still current).

I've never personally looked at certification as "us vs them".  Kittredge used both ABS and Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.  In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon once.  I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than one set of rules being better than another.

If you think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

  Hi,
  I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
  of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
  http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/ GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf

  Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
  There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
  may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
  is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
  would be interesting to know.
  I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.

  Jon if you don't like this idea email me
  Alan

   

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Mon Nov 25 23:31:11 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:31:11 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5294240F.1070003@psubs.org>


No, I think you've got it right.  With the exception of Carsten I 
suspect we have more knowledge about ABS than GL, so I would go with GL 
and the rest of us can make comparisons as they come up. I suspect 
there's a lot of commonality anyway.  ASME seems to be the resource that 
many use as the "back bone" for their own rules.


On 11/25/2013 10:52 PM, Alan James wrote:
> Hi Jon,
> I have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
> other than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets 
> elsewhere.
> They could be very close, I don't know.
> I intend to read through ABS as well but for some reason I've started 
> on G.L..
> I doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too 
> many Psubbers
> wanting to spend the money to certify. However from a safety 
> standpoint there may
> be some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
> I could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them 
> than G.L., &
> able to comment on discrepancies.
> I think Jim & David were interested in following classification 
> guidelines.
> How far are you two down the track with this? And would it be 
> preferred if we went
> over ABS instead???
> Regards Alan
>

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From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com  Tue Nov 26 02:20:32 2013
From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:20:32 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
Message-ID: <201311252320634.SM06236@[66.162.33.185]>

When these agencies review a new sub do they evaluate how all the components interact in an overall comprehensive way?? What if a sub has some type of out of the ordinary feature or new type of material used?? Is it up to the manufacturer to prove the case for the new component?? Would they require additional testing on such a component or would engineering calcs suffice ?? What if you had a mechanical arm, but it didn't really work very good, is that something they would be concerned about?
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com>
Sent 11/18/2013 8:42:20 PM
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible ClassificationAll:Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors ? Lloyds
Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,? Det Norske
Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of
these classifying agencies use as their reference ?Pressure Vessels for Human
Occupancy ? section 8?, commonly referred to as ?PVHO8?. Several of these
agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The
choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial ?Plan
Approval? and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity
of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of
the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the
office who will make the final decision relative to your subs
classification? -relative to where their local representatives offices are
located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others
witnessing and certs. Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class ? particularly if you are
only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread
our costs over a number of subs by getting ?type approval? so much of the
initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you don?t change
the design.Phil?From:Alan JamesSent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PMTo:Personal Submersibles General
DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible
Classification?Hi Jon,I
have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,other
than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets
elsewhere.They
could be very close, I don't know.I intend to read through ABS as well but
for some reason I've started on G.L..I
doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many
Psubbers wanting
to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there
maybe
some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.I
could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L.,
&able
to comment on discrepancies. I
think Jim & David were interested in following classification
guidelines.How
far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we
wentover
ABS instead???Regards
Alan?From: Jon
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37
PMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
G.L. Submersible Classification?
I don't have any issues
with it as long as the discussion remains objective.? I have been reminded
that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up
over the years and don't want to jeopardize.? However, we would certainly
entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others
that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.? I would also note that
we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources &
Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG
(hopefully still current).
I've never personally
looked at certification as "us vs them".? Kittredge used both ABS and
Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.? In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon
once.? I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than
one set of rules being better than another.
If you
think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular
certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public
list.
Jon
On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:Hi,I've
just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classificationof
manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/
GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdfIs
anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?There
are a few people in the group with GL classification experience whomay
want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my
understandingis
not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up onwould
be interesting to know.I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some
areas.Jon if you don't like this idea email meAlan_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 02:31:49 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (seaquestor at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:31:49 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
Message-ID: <4iunxc8dru0hyhrhixr0hvv2.1385451109743@email.android.com>

Hi Alan, I am just about ready to have a conversation with both ABS and GL on starting the process. As both are classing societies it most likely for me will come down to the cost to class, and how many hoops to jump through. I have been following ABS guidelines however as my bases for initial design criteria. I met with and spoke to both last February at the Underwater Intervention Convention in New Orleans. Based upon the initial meeting it appears that it will not be cheap. 

Best Regards,
David Colombo
SeaQuestor Industries

804 College Ave.
Santa Rosa, CA.
707.536.1424






Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 26 03:05:18 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:05:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
Message-ID: <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks Phil,
that's a good introduction to this topic.
From what I've read so far, supplying the documentation they require
seems harder than building the submarine.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Phil Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
 


All:
Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors ? Lloyds 
Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,? Det Norske 
Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of 
these classifying agencies use as their reference ?Pressure Vessels for Human 
Occupancy ? section 8?, commonly referred to as ?PVHO8?. Several of these 
agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The 
choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial ?Plan 
Approval? and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity 
of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of 
the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the 
office who will make the final decision relative to your subs 
classification? -relative to where their local representatives offices are 
located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others 
witnessing and certs. 
Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class ? particularly if you are 
only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread 
our costs over a number of subs by getting ?type approval? so much of the 
initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you don?t change 
the design.
Phil?
From: Alan James 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible 
Classification
? 
Hi Jon,
I 
have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other 
than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets 
elsewhere.
They 
could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but 
for some reason I've started on G.L..

I 
doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many 
Psubbers 
wanting 
to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there 
may
be 
some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I 
could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L., 
&
able 
to comment on discrepancies. 
I 
think Jim & David were interested in following classification 
guidelines.
How 
far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we 
went
over 
ABS instead???
Regards 
Alan
?

________________________________
 From: Jon 
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37 
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 
G.L. Submersible Classification

?

I don't have any issues 
with it as long as the discussion remains objective.? I have been reminded 
that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up 
over the years and don't want to jeopardize.? However, we would certainly 
entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others 
that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.? I would also note that 
we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & 
Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG 
(hopefully still current).

I've never personally 
looked at certification as "us vs them".? Kittredge used both ABS and 
Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.? In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon 
once.? I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than 
one set of rules being better than another.

If you 
think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular 
certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public 
list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

Hi,
>I've  just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
>of  manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
>http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/  GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf
>
>Is  anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
>There  are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
>may  want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my  understanding
>is  not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
>would  be interesting to know.
>I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some  areas.
>
>Jon if you don't like this idea email me
>Alan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

?
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



________________________________
 _______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 26 03:17:08 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:17:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <201311252320634.SM06236@[66.162.33.185]>
References: <201311252320634.SM06236@[66.162.33.185]>
Message-ID: <1385453828.63314.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Brian,
you have to supply a drawing of every component in your
electric tooth brush, it's thermal rating, mechanical properties, battery voltage,
what are it's potential modes of failure & how these could possibly
impact anything else on the sub. And you may have to subject this toothbrush
to specific tests designed by them as proof. They don't leave any stone unturned.
Will get to all these issues eventually.
Regards Alan



________________________________
 From: brian <brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
 


When these agencies review a new sub do they evaluate how all the components interact in an overall comprehensive way?? What if a sub has some type of out of the ordinary feature or new type of material used?? Is it up to the manufacturer to prove the case for the new component?? Would they require additional testing on such a component or would engineering calcs suffice ?? What if you had a mechanical arm, but it didn't really work very good, is that something they would be concerned about?

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com>
Sent 11/18/2013 8:42:20 PM
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification


All:
Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors ? Lloyds
Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,? Det Norske
Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of
these classifying agencies use as their reference ?Pressure Vessels for Human
Occupancy ? section 8?, commonly referred to as ?PVHO8?. Several of these
agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The
choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial ?Plan
Approval? and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity
of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of
the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the
office who will make the final decision relative to your subs
classification? -relative to where their local representatives offices are
located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others
witnessing and certs. 
Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class ? particularly if you are
only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread
our costs over a number of subs by getting ?type approval? so much of the
initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you don?t change
the design.
Phil?
From: Alan James 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible
Classification
? Hi Jon,
I
have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other
than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets
elsewhere.
They
could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but
for some reason I've started on G.L..

I
doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many
Psubbers 
wanting
to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there
may
be
some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I
could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L.,
&
able
to comment on discrepancies. 
I
think Jim & David were interested in following classification
guidelines.
How
far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we
went
over
ABS instead???
Regards
Alan
?

________________________________
 From: Jon
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
G.L. Submersible Classification

?

I don't have any issues
with it as long as the discussion remains objective.? I have been reminded
that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up
over the years and don't want to jeopardize.? However, we would certainly
entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others
that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.? I would also note that
we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources &
Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG
(hopefully still current).

I've never personally
looked at certification as "us vs them".? Kittredge used both ABS and
Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.? In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon
once.? I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than
one set of rules being better than another.

If you
think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular
certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public
list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

Hi,
>I've
just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
>of
manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
>http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/
GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf
>
>Is
anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
>There
are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
>may
want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my
understanding
>is
not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
>would
be interesting to know.
>I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some
areas.
>
>Jon if you don't like this idea email me
>Alan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

?
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



________________________________
 _______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Tue Nov 26 14:26:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 26 Nov 2013 19:26 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org> 
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC> 
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de>

Sometimes they not accept the material cerificates of the other agencies. 

For example the GL accept stamps on steel from LRS, DNV or ABS.
But LRS not accept the certificates of for example GL or others.
The like to make there own - maybe mostly to make more profit. 

Also some of them are pretty slow. Fire and Saftey plans and issues 
for example goes from the client to the German LRS office, 
from there to the London office and than later back. 
Can take 6 month or longer for one drawing. 
On small boat with building times of less than 6 months we 
sometimes are much quicker in the water than the class approve the drawings. 

This is a big issue with the class - if you are build quicker than they can red mark the drawings 
 - you run maybe in big troubles. Special if you have allready ordered the shell.. 

But most issue is the price. If you like to go with a single build small Psubs and a bigger classification - just double all figures. 

We generate 3-4 years ago a quicker and much cheaper class for small subs - but the sericve is offered today only in Europe.  

In general there are no big difference in the agencies - more importnat is which personal inspector you get..  

Brian : 
New matierial has to be allways to be testet, new idears has to confirmed as a "equal" solution. 
New construction has to be calculate. 

I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 

all the best Carsten 


"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb: 
Thanks Phil,
that's a good introduction to this topic.
>From what I've read so far, supplying the documentation they require
seems harder than building the submarine.
Alan




From: Phil Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



All:
Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors  Lloyds Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,  Det Norske Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of these classifying agencies use as their reference 
Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy  section 8
, commonly referred to as PVHO8. Several of these agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial Plan Approval and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the office who will make the final decision relative to your subs classification  -relative to where their local representatives offices are located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others witnessing and certs. 
Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class  particularly if you are only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread our costs over a number of subs by getting type approval so much of the initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you dont change the design.
Phil

From: Alan James 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
I have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets elsewhere.
They could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but for some reason I've started on G.L..

I doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many Psubbers 
wanting to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there may
be some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L., &
able to comment on discrepancies. 
I think Jim & David were interested in following classification guidelines.
How far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we went
over ABS instead???
Regards Alan



From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



I don't have any issues with it as long as the discussion remains objective.  I have been reminded that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up over the years and don't want to jeopardize.  However, we would certainly entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.  I would also note that we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG (hopefully still current).

I've never personally looked at certification as "us vs them".  Kittredge used both ABS and Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.  In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon once.  I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than one set of rules being better than another.

If you think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public list.

Jon


On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

Hi,
I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/ GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf

Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
would be interesting to know.
I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.

Jon if you don't like this idea email me
Alan

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From jonw at psubs.org  Tue Nov 26 15:22:55 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:22:55 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>


And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.

On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> E-Mail Software 6.0
> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld 
> drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution.

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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Tue Nov 26 16:01:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 26 Nov 2013 21:01 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org> 
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC> 
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1VlPmp-0AkpbE0@fwd14.t-online.de>


Years a ago I got an old ROV manipulator arm - electric driven - for free.
I cannibalize it and found inside the small stainless steel motor casing 
excat that small gear motors of battery powered handheld drilling machines..

And the videoeye of the old arm make his way into the bow of the Euronaut. 

:-o vbr Carsten


And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.

On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:


I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 


_______________________________________________ 
Personal_Submersibles mailing list 
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org 
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles 
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 26 16:04:01 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:04:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Jon,
someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
because you have put your idea out in the public domain
it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
anybody patenting your idea.
Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
 



And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.


On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:

E-Mail Software 6.0

I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve?based on a handheld
      drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Tue Nov 26 16:57:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 26 Nov 2013 21:57 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org> 
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC> 
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org> 
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1VlQeI-3IS8X20@fwd08.t-online.de>

75.000 USD ?
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From jonw at psubs.org  Tue Nov 26 18:29:55 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:29:55 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52952EF3.60308@psubs.org>


It's ok Alan, I was just joking.  :)


On 11/26/2013 4:04 PM, Alan James wrote:
> Hi Jon,
> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
> anybody patenting your idea.
> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>
>
> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
>

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From jonw at psubs.org  Tue Nov 26 18:34:05 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:34:05 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1VlQeI-3IS8X20@fwd08.t-online.de>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlQeI-3IS8X20@fwd08.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <52952FED.8050003@psubs.org>


Alan, I can tell you this...it cost $100,000 to build and certify the 
K-600 in 1979.

Jon


On 11/26/2013 4:57 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>
> 75.000 USD ?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

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From seaquestor at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 19:26:59 2013
From: seaquestor at gmail.com (seaquestor at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:26:59 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
Message-ID: <6ng83uymyf2s2j36lfne89g9.1385512019000@email.android.com>

The initial verbal estimate started at 60k.

Best Regards,
David Colombo
SeaQuestor Industries

804 College Ave.
Santa Rosa, CA.
707.536.1424






Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From psub101 at indy.rr.com  Tue Nov 26 20:43:53 2013
From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 20:43:53 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wireless Trolling Motor Controllers?
Message-ID: <000301ceeb12$21044630$630cd290$@indy.rr.com>

All, just came across something interesting.  Apparently there are some
"wireless" controller/trolling motor packages.

 

http://motorguide.factoryoutletstore.com/Category/CategoryListNoCache.aspx?c
ategory_id=0
<http://motorguide.factoryoutletstore.com/Category/CategoryListNoCache.aspx?
category_id=0&search_term=wireless%20motors> &search_term=wireless%20motors

 

While this control arrangement seems to have some limits it also might have
some applications.  I am not sure yet what type of "wireless" technology it
is using (RF?).  Maybe something that can be used in psubs? 

 

I've just not heard these products discussed and was wondering if anyone had
investigated more?

 

Steve

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From phil at philnuytten.com  Tue Nov 19 21:52:34 2013
From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:52:34 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>

E-Mail Software 6.0Alan
RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.
Phil
BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt  cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
From: Alan James 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
because you have put your idea out in the public domain
it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
anybody patenting your idea.
Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
Alan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.


On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:


I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Tue Nov 26 21:42:10 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 20:42:10 -0600
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
Message-ID: <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>

The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
> 
> Alan
> RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.
> Phil
> BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt  cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
> From: Alan James
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>  
> Hi Jon,
> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
> anybody patenting your idea.
> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
> Alan
>  
> From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>  
> 
> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
> 
>> On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 26 23:31:24 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:31:24 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <52952FED.8050003@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlQeI-3IS8X20@fwd08.t-online.de> <52952FED.8050003@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <F4BAE5FD-7E19-47EF-9D86-352586418B0D@yahoo.com>

I just ran that 100k figure through a reverse inflation calculator for a total of $321,688 in today's dollars!

Now, taking a lesson from the experimental aircraft community, non-certified subs can be as equally sound as certified at the hands of the fastidious.

However, the caveat here is in insurability and regulated commercial operations in both disciplines.

It would seem to me then that certification in the absence of the above two requirements amounts to piece of mind with an opportunity cost in real dollars.

Joe




On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> Alan, I can tell you this...it cost $100,000 to build and certify the K-600 in 1979.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> On 11/26/2013 4:57 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>> 75.000 USD ?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 23:34:27 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:34:27 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>

I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1)
submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the
big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these
organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a
certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!).

If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying
to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the
average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S.


On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

> The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
>
>  Alan
> RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan
> approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic
> schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure
> about $50,000.
>  Phil
> BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly
> doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the
> exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage
> the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the
> US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose
> prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt
> cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
>  *From:* Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>
>  Hi Jon,
> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
> anybody patenting your idea.
> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
> Alan
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>
>
> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
>
> On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>
>
> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling
> machine motor will be not accept as equal solution.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 03:25:53 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:25:53 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjnLBS_2woxE1t5uYnxi5KO7niWkRA7u9bVbn7JTvGBX0kw@mail.gmail.com>

Joe, I am looking through my email now and it seems that you responded to
my question a couple of minutes before I asked! Stranger still, I used the
term "average joe submersible builder" but I assure you I wasn't referring
to you specifically! I suppose I should read mail that I receive while
composing a message before I send that message out. Anyway...

In the situation we have described (i.e. for a recreational submersible) it
seems that, as you say, the only thing to be gained through certification
is piece of mind. Are there any other benefits that certification offers to
recreational submersibles? ~ Douglas S.




On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1)
> submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the
> big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these
> organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a
> certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!).
>
> If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying
> to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the
> average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Alan
>> RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation,
>> plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic
>> schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure
>> about $50,000.
>>  Phil
>> BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly
>> doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the
>> exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage
>> the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the
>> US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose
>> prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt
>> cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
>>  *From:* Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>>
>>  Hi Jon,
>> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
>> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
>> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
>> anybody patenting your idea.
>> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
>> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
>> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
>> Alan
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>>
>>
>> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
>>
>> On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling
>> machine motor will be not accept as equal solution.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 04:18:38 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjnLBS_2woxE1t5uYnxi5KO7niWkRA7u9bVbn7JTvGBX0kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385543918.7084.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Doug,<br/><br/>FYI,  My employer rates me as a "High Satisfactory Joe!" :)<br/><br/>Aside from insurability and commercial passenger carrying regulatory requirements, private certification carries no tangible return on a financial investment to the average "Joe", (high satisfactory or otherwise). The opportunity cost I mentioned, is the lost opportunity in having done something else with real dollars, ie, surface support boat, sub hangar, college fund for the kids, new kitchens and bathrooms at home,..etc,etc.<br/><br/>However, the manifest benefit for the average Joe Psubber, is in self application of these very same standards with real return on investment measured in terms of enhanced hardware safety and knowledge gained. Therefore, discussion and appropriate application of lessons learned in these discussions, is our biggest benefit.<br/><br/>Joe<br/><br/><a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS"><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 05:21:05 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:21:05 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
Message-ID: <B416C59E-A94E-4BFC-BC32-668C37133E03@yahoo.com>

Thanks everyone for those figures on classification costs.
The patent topic stemmed from a joke of Jon's, however
I still feel that if someone patented an idea that came out of a
public forum, that that patent could be challenged on the grounds of  prior
art work.
Prior art (also known as state of the art, which also has other meanings, or background art[1]), in most systems of patent law,[2] constitutes all information that has been made available to the public in any form before a given date that might be relevant to a patent's claims of originality. If an invention has been described in the prior art, a patent on that invention is not valid.
Also http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2128.html
Electronic media & prior art.
    Back to the Classification; Phil gave a good summary of what is required in the form of 
documentation to be supplied to the classification agency after going in to contract with them
& prior to the build.  It is outlined in section 2E in the GL classification guide lines.
It is HUGE & includes documentation & drawings for the whole system, a manual for maintain acne & operation etc etc.
Alan
Sent from my iPad

On 20/11/2013, at 3:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:

> Alan
> RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.
> Phil
> BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt  cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
> From: Alan James
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>  
> Hi Jon,
> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
> anybody patenting your idea.
> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
> Alan
>  
> From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>  
> 
> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
> 
> On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Wed Nov 27 08:20:37 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:20:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <B416C59E-A94E-4BFC-BC32-668C37133E03@yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <B416C59E-A94E-4BFC-BC32-668C37133E03@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385558437.15064.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



I can not see a real benefit to having a certification?for? average?home built sub.? On the other hand we should stay as close to or right on the guidelines set by the certification process.? When I took Gamma apart I was amazed at how unremarkable things are.? Maybe the guidelines are more advanced since 1993 but it is not out of this world to build to ABS specs.? Because I have all the drawings and documentation it would be nice to certify Gamma again but my windows do not conform to todays standards.? We as average Home ?sub builders should keep our projects as unremarkable and simple as possible to keep them safe.??Remember, test, test, and test again.? Then when your completely happy with it, test it again.
Hank



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 3:21:29 AM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Thanks everyone for those figures on classification costs.
The patent topic stemmed from a joke of Jon's, however
I still feel that if someone patented an idea that came out of a
public forum, that that patent could be challenged on the grounds of ?prior
art work.
Prior art?(also known as?state of the art, which also has other meanings, or?background art[1]), in most systems of?patent?law,[2]?constitutes all?information?that has been made available to the public in any form before a given date that might be relevant to a patent's claims of originality. If an?invention?has been described in the prior art, a patent on that invention is not valid.
Also?http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2128.html
Electronic media & prior art.
? ? Back to the Classification; Phil gave a good summary of what is required in the form of?
documentation to be supplied to the classification agency after going in to contract with them
& prior to the build. ?It is outlined in section 2E in the GL classification guide lines.
It is HUGE & includes documentation & drawings for the whole system, a manual for maintain acne & operation etc etc.
Alan
Sent from my iPad

On 20/11/2013, at 3:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:


E-Mail Software 6.0
Alan 
RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan 
approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, 
piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000. Phil 
BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public 
domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it 
may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the 
ability to engage the patent? process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold 
water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you 
intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional 
Patent? ? dirt? cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so ) 
From: Alan James  
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion  
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible 
Classification 
 Hi Jon, 
someone 
may have more knowledge on this but I think that 
because 
you have put your idea out in the public domain 
it 
may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against 
anybody 
patenting your idea. 
Can 
anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar 
to 
a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional 
costs 
in getting together all the documentation etc. 
Alan 


________________________________
 From: Jon 
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 
AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 
G.L. Submersible Classification
 



And nobody better steal 
my idea until I patent it.


On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
  

I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a 
handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 

 

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


 

________________________________

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Wed Nov 27 10:00:20 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:00:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Patents
Message-ID: <8D0B99886398134-F38-83A23@webmail-m236.sysops.aol.com>


In my work I used to monitor hundreds of patents from design, filing, resolution, notice, award, and continuing maintenance in a number of countries and jurisdictions.  Although I doubt that the subject will affect many of us in Pusbs, I'll make a few comments.  

1.  If you anticipate that you will want to obtain a patent either to produce and market a product or to protect your own right to use something you have developed (Prior User rights), get acquainted with a good, local patent attorney.  Choose him or her very carefully.  The narrative art of the application is as important as the technical part.
2.  Patent laws vary substantially from country to country.
3.  There is no such thing as an "international patent."  However there are groups of countries that have established a central patent authority for their members.  The largest of these covers most of the nations of western and central Europe.  Countries also make treaties governing respect of each other's patents, however enforcing rights under those treaties can be another question entirely.
4.  Patent laws change.  In March of 2013 the most sweeping change in patent law since 1952 went into effect in the US.  Much of the intent was to make it easier for the small guy and encourage innovation.
5.  Prior Art has a number of definitions, conditions, time limitations, and (most importantly) interpretations.   Courts decide applicability, etc.
6.  The three most common standards are First-to-file (FTF), First-to-invent) (FTI), and First-inventor-to-file) (FITF).  In 2013 the US changed from FTI to FITF.
7.  Patent development and defense can be very expensive.  Sometimes companies will offer to buy a patent for a certain price and tell the inventor, "Accept our offer, or we will produce it anyway and you can sue us."
8.  If you think you might want to go the cheap route and seek a Provisional Patent, talk to your patent attorney first so that you will be aware of the potential pitfalls.
9.  Some things are worth patenting, and some are just way more hassle and expense than they're worth.  
9.  I recall that when I signed up with Psubs, I waived certain patent claims for anything I might present via email to the group.  I don't recall the specifics.

I don't know that this clarifies much, but hopefully it shows where the mud is.  I can't offer any advice or comments beyond what is stated above.

Jim
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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Wed Nov 27 12:32:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 27 Nov 2013 17:32 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org> 
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC> 
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org> 
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC> 
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com> 
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>

Douglas, there is no advantage to class a such sub.
 
Classification is required if you like to insurance the 
boat or do commercial operations with payed crew or pay-guest.  

If I ride with guest or even own crew - the have to undersign a paper that they 
known that the boat has no insurance, and they take a risk on there own responsibility. 

A other good reason for certification is if you like later to sale the boat. 
A boat with a certification can be use commercial and get there fore a much higher price. 

A other reason can be maybe that you are unsure what you are doing. 
But in that case you should not build a Psub anyway.. 

A good compromice for Psub builder is maybe to collect all material 
certificates, building documentaion, construction pictures and test etc etc. 
and build the boat strait according to the rules. 
This gives you a chance to certificate the boat later. 

Nemo100  boats for example have a hull only certificate from GL 
and a saftey building certificate from Swizz Lloyds
and the insurance company / flag state accept that. 

vbr Carsten  (Owner of two non classed sub - one since 30 years). 


"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1) submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!). 


If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S.   



On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:


Alan
RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.
Phil
BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt  cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
From: Alan James 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
because you have put your idea out in the public domain
it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
anybody patenting your idea.
Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
Alan



From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.


On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:


I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 12:51:17 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:51:17 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Carsten, I appreciate your input. It seems that certification is
such a chore (and comes at such a high cost) that it probably isn't worth
doing for a recreational submersible.

I think Hank really nailed it on the head about testing. Proper testing
builds confidence in everyone's minds. But to those who are willing to go
forward with the arduous and costly certification process, I salute you. ~
Douglas S.


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:

>  Douglas, there is no advantage to class a such sub.
>
> Classification is required if you like to insurance the
> boat or do commercial operations with payed crew or pay-guest.
>
> If I ride with guest or even own crew - the have to undersign a paper that
> they
> known that the boat has no insurance, and they take a risk on there own
> responsibility.
>
> A other good reason for certification is if you like later to sale the
> boat.
> A boat with a certification can be use commercial and get there fore a
> much higher price.
>
> A other reason can be maybe that you are unsure what you are doing.
> But in that case you should not build a Psub anyway..
>
> A good compromice for Psub builder is maybe to collect all material
> certificates, building documentaion, construction pictures and test etc
> etc.
> and build the boat strait according to the rules.
> This gives you a chance to certificate the boat later.
>
> Nemo100  boats for example have a hull only certificate from GL
> and a saftey building certificate from Swizz Lloyds
> and the insurance company / flag state accept that.
>
> vbr Carsten  (Owner of two non classed sub - one since 30 years).
>
>
> "Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb:
>
> I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1)
> submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the
> big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these
> organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a
> certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!).
>
> If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying
> to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the
> average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Alan
>> RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation,
>> plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic
>> schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure
>> about $50,000.
>>  Phil
>> BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly
>> doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the
>> exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage
>> the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the
>> US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose
>> prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt
>> cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
>>  *From:* Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>>
>>  Hi Jon,
>> someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
>> because you have put your idea out in the public domain
>> it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
>> anybody patenting your idea.
>> Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
>> to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
>> costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
>> Alan
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
>>
>>
>> And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.
>>
>> On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling
>> machine motor will be not accept as equal solution.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
>
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From jonw at psubs.org  Wed Nov 27 12:51:53 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:51:53 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385558437.15064.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <B416C59E-A94E-4BFC-BC32-668C37133E03@yahoo.com>
 <1385558437.15064.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52963139.6020402@psubs.org>


Agreed, certification for home-built personal use submarines are a 
luxury.  For commercial passenger transport in the US, the Coast Guard 
is going to require certification.  The only other reason it might be 
warranted is for commercial diving work where the client requires you to 
have liability insurance because they want your insurance to cover any 
claims that might arise due to the work you perform, and/or don't want a 
claim against them for any work injuries you might incur.  I'm not 
convinced a non-certified sub is unable to get insurance for all 
possible work.  A few years ago there was an marine insurance company 
representative at Underwater Intervention whom I talked about regarding 
liability insurance for a non-certified home-built submarine.  While 
expensive, it was not unobtainable.  Are you going to need certification 
to get hired by an oil company to support underwater ops on an offshore 
drilling platform...probably.  Are you going to need certification to 
get hired to do three days worth of underwater inspections of boat piers 
for a private local boat yard...probably not.  In my opinion 
certification does add value to a personal-use submarine but whether 
that value is actually realized financially cannot be guaranteed.  When 
someone is considering certification you can safely assume they are one 
or more of; (a) planning on selling/marketing to the public; (b) 
planning on commercial passenger transport; (c) planning on serious 
commercial work.

Given the estimated cost of certification we have seen so far ($50-60k 
US) it's easy to understand why we in the personal use market do not 
want government intervention forcing certification upon all vessels 
regardless of use.  This is one reason self-enforcement of safe design, 
fabrication, and operations is important and why PSUBS has pushed design 
and fabrication in accordance with guidelines of certifying agencies.

We should also recognize that there's no restriction on PSUBS becoming 
its own certifying authority and serving the home-built market.  Such a 
CA would not go to the extent of requiring x-ray reading of welds but 
could act to confirm basic design parameters, equipment, and 
documentation based upon what the owner/designer presented.  It wouldn't 
hold the stature of an ABS or GL rating, nor be feasible for passenger 
based operations, but may help with finding insurance and some types of 
work once we built it (over time) into an accepted certificate.

Hank's words that a very good and safe sub can be unremarkable and built 
to ABS (or other CA) specs are exactly right.  Phil Nuytten essentially 
said the same thing at the 2009 convention, I believe his exact quote 
was, "this stuff isn't rocket science".

Jon


On 11/27/2013 8:20 AM, hank pronk wrote:
>
> I can not see a real benefit to having a certification for  
> average home built sub.  On the other hand we should stay as close to 
> or right on the guidelines set by the certification process.  When I 
> took Gamma apart I was amazed at how unremarkable things are.  Maybe 
> the guidelines are more advanced since 1993 but it is not out of this 
> world to build to ABS specs.  Because I have all the drawings and 
> documentation it would be nice to certify Gamma again but my windows 
> do not conform to todays standards.  We as average Home  sub builders 
> should keep our projects as unremarkable and simple as possible to 
> keep them safe.  Remember, test, test, and test again.  Then when your 
> completely happy with it, test it again.
> Hank
>

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From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Wed Nov 27 13:06:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 27 Nov 2013 18:06 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org> 
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC> 
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org> 
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC> 
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com> 
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com> 
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de> 
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1VljWO-11v2qu0@fwd01.t-online.de>

The cost discussed here was just for the certification itself. 
There are a lot of other cost to get the 
material certificates, presure test cost, puchase approved equipment only, 
computer FE calculation cost, make additional drawings like a Fire and saftey plan 
(even if you have just one hand held extingusher on board) etc.. 

vbr Carsten

"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
Thank you Carsten, I appreciate your input. It seems that certification is such a chore (and comes at such a high cost) that it probably isn't worth doing for a recreational submersible.   


I think Hank really nailed it on the head about testing. Proper testing builds confidence in everyone's minds. But to those who are willing to go forward with the arduous and costly certification process, I salute you. ~ Douglas S. 



On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:

Douglas, there is no advantage to class a such sub.
 
Classification is required if you like to insurance the  
boat or do commercial operations with payed crew or pay-guest.  

If I ride with guest or even own crew - the have to undersign a paper that they 
known that the boat has no insurance, and they take a risk on there own responsibility. 

A other good reason for certification is if you like later to sale the boat. 
A boat with a certification can be use commercial and get there fore a much higher price. 

A other reason can be maybe that you are unsure what you are doing. 
But in that case you should not build a Psub anyway.. 

A good compromice for Psub builder is maybe to collect all material 
certificates, building documentaion, construction pictures and test etc etc. 
and build the boat strait according to the rules. 
This gives you a chance to certificate the boat later. 

Nemo100  boats for example have a hull only certificate from GL 
and a saftey building certificate from Swizz Lloyds
and the insurance company / flag state accept that. 

vbr Carsten  (Owner of two non classed sub - one since 30 years). 


"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1) submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!). 


If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S.   



On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:

The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:


Alan
RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.
Phil
BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the ability to engage the patent  process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional Patent? ? dirt  cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
From: Alan James 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
someone may have more knowledge on this but I think that
because you have put your idea out in the public domain
it may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
anybody patenting your idea.
Can anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
to a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
costs in getting together all the documentation etc.
Alan



From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification



And nobody better steal my idea until I patent it.


On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:


I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 



_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles






_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




 



-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles




 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Wed Nov 27 13:23:42 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:23:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1VljWO-11v2qu0@fwd01.t-online.de>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1VljWO-11v2qu0@fwd01.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1385576622.18363.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

When I bought the steel for my subs over the last few years, I was shocked to get an envelope full of certifications.? I?was also surprised to see each piece was stamped?identifying the steel.??serious stuff.
Hank?



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 11:06:00 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de" <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:
  
E-Mail Software 6.0
The cost discussed here was just for the 
certification itself. 
There are a lot of other cost to get 
the?
material certificates, presure test cost, puchase approved 
equipment only,
computer FE calculation cost, make additional 
drawings like a Fire and saftey plan 
(even if you have just one hand held 
extingusher on board) etc.. 

vbr Carsten

"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
Thank you Carsten, I appreciate your input. It seems that certification is such a chore (and comes at such a high cost) that it probably isn't worth doing for a recreational submersible. ??
>
> 
>I think Hank really nailed it on the head about testing. Proper testing builds confidence in everyone's minds. But to those who are willing to go forward with the arduous and costly certification process, I salute you. ~ Douglas S.? 
>
>
>
>On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:
>
> 
>>Douglas, there is no?advantage to class a such 
sub.
>>?
>>Classification is required if you like to insurance the 
>>boat or do commercial operations with payed crew or pay-guest.? 
>>
>>If I ride with guest or even own crew - the have to undersign a paper 
that they 
>>known that the boat has no insurance, and they take a risk on 
there own responsibility. 
>>
>>A other good reason for certification is if 
you like later to sale the boat. 
>>A boat with a certification can be use 
commercial and get there fore a much higher price. 
>>
>>A other reason can be 
maybe that you are unsure what you are doing. 
>>But in that case you should 
not build a Psub anyway.. 
>>
>>A good compromice for Psub builder is maybe to 
collect all material 
>>certificates, building documentaion, construction 
pictures and test etc etc.?
>>and build the boat strait according to the 
rules. 
>>This gives you a chance to certificate the boat later. 
>>
>>Nemo100? boats for example have a hull only certificate from GL 
>>and a saftey building?certificate from Swizz Lloyds
>>and the 
insurance company / flag state accept that. 
>>
>>vbr Carsten? (Owner of 
two non classed sub - one since 30 years). 
>>
>>
>>"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
>>I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1) submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!).?
>>>
>>>
>>>If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S. ?? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights.?
>>>>
>>>>Sent from my iPhone 
>>>>
>>>>On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Alan 
>>>>>RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan 
approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, 
piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000. Phil 
>>>>>BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public 
domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it 
may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the 
ability to engage the patent? process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold 
water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you 
intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional 
Patent? ? dirt? cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so ) 
>>>>>From: Alan James  
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM 
>>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion  
>>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible 
Classification 
>>>>> Hi Jon, 
>>>>>someone 
may have more knowledge on this but I think that 
>>>>>because 
you have put your idea out in the public domain 
>>>>>it 
may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against 
>>>>>anybody 
patenting your idea. 
>>>>>Can 
anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar 
>>>>>to
a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional 
>>>>>costs 
in getting together all the documentation etc. 
>>>>>Alan 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>________________________________
>>>>> From: Jon 
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
>>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 
AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 
G.L. Submersible Classification
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And nobody better steal 
my idea until I patent it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a 
handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>> 
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>  ?
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>
>>Carsten Standfu?
>>Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
>>Heinrich Reck Str.12A
>>18211 Admannshagen
>>
>>0172 8464 420
>>http://www.euronaut.org/
>>Carsten at euronaut.org 
>>_______________________________________________
>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>  ?

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 13:46:22 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:46:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Patents
In-Reply-To: <8D0B99886398134-F38-83A23@webmail-m236.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0B99886398134-F38-83A23@webmail-m236.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1385577982.29212.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks Jim,
as a group we are always working through new ideas & there is
a pretty open sharing of knowledge.
By bringing up the concept of ideas in this forum being regarded
as prior art work, it adds a measure of security that someone won't
patent our inventions, or if they do we can continue using the invention
claiming prior art work.
I am not confident that posting on this forum is prior art work, but patent
law has some pretty "fuzzy" areas. A patent can be regarded as a strong
or a weak patent, & somewhere in between.
To ascertain the originality of an invention would be a nightmare with
so many patents out there.
I had a patent years ago that went to the 3rd stage. It was going to
cost me $500,000 for a world wide patent of 100 member countries.
And if the product does well then some other big manufacturing Country
that is not a member, makes it.
Alan


________________________________
 From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:00 AM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Patents
 


In my work I used to monitor hundreds of patents from design, filing, resolution, notice, award, and continuing maintenance in a number of countries and jurisdictions.? Although I doubt that the subject will affect many of us in Pusbs, I'll make a few comments.? 
?
1.? If you anticipate that you will want to obtain a patent either to produce and market a product or to protect your own right to use something you have developed (Prior User rights), get acquainted with a good, local patent attorney.? Choose him or her very carefully.? The narrative art of the application is as important as the technical part.
2.? Patent laws vary substantially from country to country.
3.? There is no such thing as an "international patent."? However there are groups of countries that have established a central patent authority for their members.? The largest of these covers most of the nations of western and central Europe.? Countries also make treaties governing respect of each other's patents, however enforcing rights under those treaties can be another question entirely.
4.? Patent laws change.? In March of 2013 the most sweeping change in patent law since 1952 went into effect in the US.? Much of the intent was to make it easier for the small guy and encourage innovation.
5.? Prior Art has a number of definitions, conditions, time limitations, and (most importantly) interpretations.? ?Courts?decide applicability, etc.
6.? The three most common standards are First-to-file (FTF), First-to-invent) (FTI), and First-inventor-to-file) (FITF).? In 2013 the US changed from FTI to FITF.
7.? Patent?development and defense can be very expensive.??Sometimes companies will offer to buy a patent for a certain price and tell the inventor, "Accept our offer, or we will produce it anyway and you can sue us."
8.? If you think you might want to go the cheap route and seek a Provisional Patent, talk to your patent attorney first so that you will be aware of the potential pitfalls.
9.? Some things are worth patenting, and some are just way more hassle and expense than they're worth.? 
9.? I recall that when I signed up with Psubs, I waived certain patent?claims for anything I might present via email to the group.? I don't recall the specifics.
?
I don't know that this clarifies much, but hopefully it shows where the mud is.? I can't offer any advice or comments beyond what is stated above.
?
Jim
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 14:07:08 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:07:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf
is to build as close as possible to certification standard.
I won't be certifying the build I'm starting.
I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what
these are.?
? ?I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication
equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or
made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to?
classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with authorities
at a later date, or selling the sub.
Cheers Alan



?


________________________________
 From: Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
 


Thank you Carsten, I appreciate your input. It seems that certification is such a chore (and comes at such a high cost) that it probably isn't worth doing for a recreational submersible. ??

I think Hank really nailed it on the head about testing. Proper testing builds confidence in everyone's minds. But to those who are willing to go forward with the arduous and costly certification process, I salute you. ~ Douglas S.?



On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:

 
>Douglas, there is no?advantage to class a such 
sub.
>?
>Classification is required if you like to insurance the 
>boat or do commercial operations with payed crew or pay-guest.? 
>
>If I ride with guest or even own crew - the have to undersign a paper 
that they 
>known that the boat has no insurance, and they take a risk on 
there own responsibility. 
>
>A other good reason for certification is if 
you like later to sale the boat. 
>A boat with a certification can be use 
commercial and get there fore a much higher price. 
>
>A other reason can be 
maybe that you are unsure what you are doing. 
>But in that case you should 
not build a Psub anyway.. 
>
>A good compromice for Psub builder is maybe to 
collect all material 
>certificates, building documentaion, construction 
pictures and test etc etc.?
>and build the boat strait according to the 
rules. 
>This gives you a chance to certificate the boat later. 
>
>Nemo100? boats for example have a hull only certificate from GL 
>and a saftey building?certificate from Swizz Lloyds
>and the 
insurance company / flag state accept that. 
>
>vbr Carsten? (Owner of 
two non classed sub - one since 30 years). 
>
>
>"Douglas Suhr" <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> schrieb: 
>I have a question. Assuming I am building a single (as in, quantity: 1) submersible that I don't plan to sell or give to anyone else, what is the big advantage/motivation to having my sub classed by any of these organizations (excluding the prestige)? That's a lot of money to throw at a certificate or whatever (that could be used to build a submarine!).?
>>
>>
>>If you plan to carry passengers for hire and need insurance, or are trying to procure commercial work of any sort, I understand completly. But for the average joe submersible builder, what's the big draw? ~ Douglas S. ??
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Jim Todd <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>The public use has to do with trademarks and some copyrights.?
>>>
>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Alan
>>>>RE: cost of sub certification - If you do all the test documentation, plan 
approval docs, FEA?s, Von Mises, construction drawings, electronic schematics, 
piping diagrams and sub-system drawings, yourself ? figure about $50,000.Phil
>>>>BTW, putting a patentable idea out in the ?public 
domain? most certainly doesn?t safeguard against anyone copying it ? in fact, it 
may well be the exact opposite! ?Public Disclosure? may well prohibit the 
ability to engage the patent? process, period. (Not trying to chuck cold 
water, but check the US patent act and that?s what you?ll find . . . if you 
intend to disclose prior to patenting, then at least apply for a ?Provisional 
Patent? ? dirt? cheap, and protects you for 12 months or so )
>>>>From: Alan James 
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:04 PM
>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion 
>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible 
Classification
>>>>? Hi Jon,
>>>>someone 
may have more knowledge on this but I think that
>>>>because 
you have put your idea out in the public domain
>>>>it 
may be regarded as "prior art work" safe guarding you against
>>>>anybody 
patenting your idea.
>>>>Can 
anybody have a guess at what classification for a boat similar
>>>>to 
a K350 would cost in fees to an agency, aside from all the additional
>>>>costs 
in getting together all the documentation etc.
>>>>Alan
>>>>?
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>> From: Jon 
Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:22 
AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 
G.L. Submersible Classification
>>>>
>>>>?
>>>>
>>>>And nobody better steal 
my idea until I patent it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 11/26/2013 2:26 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a 
handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>?
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing 
list
>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>?
>
>
>-- 
>
>Carsten Standfu?
>Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
>Heinrich Reck Str.12A
>18211 Admannshagen
>
>0172 8464 420
>WWW.Euronaut.org
>Carsten at euronaut.org
>_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>


_______________________________________________
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From jonw at psubs.org  Wed Nov 27 14:19:51 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:19:51 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>


I think that's a great approach Alan.  It will be educational for 
everyone.  So when do you start and is this a continuation of the 
ambient or a new design.  I think we talked about this a bit in Florida 
but I've forgotten.

Jon


On 11/27/2013 2:07 PM, Alan James wrote:
> My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf
> is to build as close as possible to certification standard.
> I won't be certifying the build I'm starting.
> I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what
> these are.
>    I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication
> equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or
> made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to
> classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with 
> authorities
> at a later date, or selling the sub.
> Cheers Alan
>
>
>

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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 15:13:31 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 09:13:31 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>

Hi Jon,
it will have some similar aspects to the ambient, which was really a model /
mock up for a 1 ATM.
1st stage is nailing down exactly what I need for certification, then work with
CAD & models to come up with as small a hull as comfortably possible, before
building. Give me a couple of years.......
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 28/11/2013, at 8:19 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

> 
> I think that's a great approach Alan.  It will be educational for everyone.  So when do you start and is this a continuation of the ambient or a new design.  I think we talked about this a bit in Florida but I've forgotten.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> On 11/27/2013 2:07 PM, Alan James wrote:
>> My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf
>> is to build as close as possible to certification standard.
>> I won't be certifying the build I'm starting.
>> I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what
>> these are. 
>>    I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication
>> equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or
>> made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to 
>> classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with authorities
>> at a later date, or selling the sub.
>> Cheers Alan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Wed Nov 27 15:42:20 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:42:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org> <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Alan,
It will be interesting to compare the rules you will be following to what Jon and I have.? If the rules differ, you can pick the most appropriate to your build.? You will have the confidence that you are following at least one governing body.
Hank



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:13:55 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Jon,
it will have some similar aspects to the ambient, which was really a model /
mock up for a?1 ATM.
1st stage is nailing down exactly what I need for certification, then work with
CAD & models to come up with as small a hull as comfortably possible, before
building. Give me a couple of years.......
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 28/11/2013, at 8:19 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:



I think that's a great approach Alan.? It will be educational for
      everyone.? So when do you start and is this a continuation of the
      ambient or a new design.? I think we talked about this a bit in
      Florida but I've forgotten.

Jon


On 11/27/2013 2:07 PM, Alan James wrote:
 
My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf 
>is to build as close as possible to certification standard. 
>I won't be certifying the build I'm starting. 
>I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what 
>these are.? 
>? ?I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication 
>equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or 
>made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to? 
>classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with authorities 
>at a later date, or selling the sub. 
>Cheers Alan 
>
> 
>
> 
>  

_______________________________________________
>Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 16:13:47 2013
From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:13:47 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>
 <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
 <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGJjn+Zj4KaVznafrLE1e_ECN=MGnS5pO0FBihsPurhXOrsug@mail.gmail.com>

Good logic Hank, I like that idea.


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:42 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>wrote:

> Alan,
> It will be interesting to compare the rules you will be following to what
> Jon and I have.  If the rules differ, you can pick the most appropriate to
> your build.  You will have the confidence that you are following at least
> one governing body.
> Hank
>
>
>   On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:13:55 PM, Alan <
> alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  Hi Jon,
> it will have some similar aspects to the ambient, which was really a model
> /
> mock up for a 1 ATM.
> 1st stage is nailing down exactly what I need for certification, then work
> with
> CAD & models to come up with as small a hull as comfortably possible,
> before
> building. Give me a couple of years.......
> Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 28/11/2013, at 8:19 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> I think that's a great approach Alan.  It will be educational for
> everyone.  So when do you start and is this a continuation of the ambient
> or a new design.  I think we talked about this a bit in Florida but I've
> forgotten.
>
> Jon
>
>
> On 11/27/2013 2:07 PM, Alan James wrote:
>
>  My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf
> is to build as close as possible to certification standard.
> I won't be certifying the build I'm starting.
> I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what
> these are.
>    I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication
> equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or
> made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to
> classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with authorities
> at a later date, or selling the sub.
> Cheers Alan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 19:00:56 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:00:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wireless Trolling Motor Controllers?
In-Reply-To: <000301ceeb12$21044630$630cd290$@indy.rr.com>
References: <000301ceeb12$21044630$630cd290$@indy.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1385596856.99019.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Steve,
I have a blue tooth wireless option on my ambient.
It went in to a spasm on a pre dive trial, with motors & ballast tank fill & vent?
turning on & off, so I have lost faith in it. It has the potential to go out & do
it's own unmanned dive.
It is a great option for launching. I was leaving the sub in the water untethered
while I parked the car, & then backing the sub in on the remote to board;?
also was driving it?on to the trailer remotely.
Handy & great party trick with an audience watching. I think Jon was looking
at some motor controllers?with a remote option a while back.
Alan

?


________________________________
 From: Steve McQueen <psub101 at indy.rr.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wireless Trolling Motor Controllers?
 


All, just came across something interesting.? Apparently there are some ?wireless? controller/trolling motor packages.
?
http://motorguide.factoryoutletstore.com/Category/CategoryListNoCache.aspx?category_id=0&search_term=wireless%20motors
?
While this control arrangement seems to have some limits it also might have some applications.? I am not sure yet what type of ?wireless? technology it is using (RF?).? Maybe something that can be used in psubs? 
?
I?ve just not heard these products discussed and was wondering if anyone had investigated more?
?
Steve
_______________________________________________
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From piolenc at archivale.com  Wed Nov 27 20:39:15 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 09:39:15 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Patents
In-Reply-To: <8D0B99886398134-F38-83A23@webmail-m236.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0B99886398134-F38-83A23@webmail-m236.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <52969EC3.2000408@archivale.com>

The USA used to have the patent system most friendly to the small 
inventor. Recent changes to "harmonize" the US system with foreign 
systems sacrificed key features of the US patent system in favor of 
features borrowed from inferior systems.

Changing from first-to-invent (absolute priority) to first-to-file 
sacrifices the rights of the actual inventor in favor of the first to 
get his file opened at the Patent Office, which of course is usually the 
Big Guy.

Marc de Piolenc

On 11/27/2013 11:00 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:

> 4.  Patent laws change.  In March of 2013 the most sweeping change in
> patent law since 1952 went into effect in the US.  Much of the intent
> was to make it easier for the small guy and encourage innovation.

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 21:43:38 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:43:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
Message-ID: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>



I have a
question on my mind that I?d like to pose for ideas. It concerns primary
propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf cart motor for long
distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 5 miles one way.
?
What I am
thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable rudder Delta style. If
one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger
motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn a larger prop, ?be more reliable long term, etc?
As for power
drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride temporarily on deck behind
the sail in a purpose built ventilated enclosure that is quick release removable.
Could this not be connected to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the
main bus?
My goals
here are simple.
1)????? The ability to travel to relative distant
dive sites with relative ease
2)????? Reducing a surface support
requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.
3)????? The ability to satisfy power drain
and on site recharge capability without rafting at sea.
4)????? Eliminating the complexity and costs
associated with inboard diesel propulsion.
Ideas /
thoughts?
Joe
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 28 04:39:20 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 22:39:20 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Classification Overview
Message-ID: <99A92F92-33AE-4A84-86F2-79874463A642@yahoo.com>

Hi all,
firstly with this summary of the G.L. Classification rules that I am attempting;
any additional information, comment & correction will be appreciated.
I can see some of it is going to be a struggle for me to understand without
a lot of background reading.
The page numbering on the G.L. PDF is a bit confusing. For any reference
I give I will quote the section & chapter no.. i.e. section 11 D, 4.3.1
   In overview the process starts with a contractual engagement & payment
of initial fee, followed by the submission of detailed plans of systems & their
operation etc etc etc. See section 2 E for details. These are viewed by G.L. 
& any anomalies addressed.
Then comes the build, which may require an initial inspection of your work shop
& that of sub contractors. You are required to have a quality management
system in place such as ISO 9001, have qualified people employed & name
your supervisor to them.
Any structural components are examined by the surveyor in uncoated condition.
The pressure hull can be subjected to an external hydraulic pressure test at this
Stage.
A file of documents giving detailed specifications of the components is to be kept.
   A general guideline to design is that no failure of a single component
can give rise to a dangerous situation. The sub is also to be designed to facilitate
inspection & to have adequate submerged forward view for the pilot.
Any innovative or unusual parts or systems can be approved with adequate testing 
as required by G.L..
There is a list of international codes that need to be complied with in section 2 B.
More details of manufacturing requirements will come out in the sections on the
specific  systems & components.
Once the submersible is complete the surveyor looks at every part, & tests 
everything. I won't list these extensive tests, they are in section 2 G, 2 total system.
(They are a good reference for any psubber wanting a maintenance check list.)
If all is OK you go in their register & get a certificate valid for 5 years.
However there is a yearly inspection & a 2 &1/2 yearly inspection to maintain class.
After 5 years you have to reclassify. I have no idea what these annual inspections
cost but guess they are additional to the classification cost.
I suppose these exhaustive tests have relevance in the commercial realm where
your submersible may be at the coal face every day & going down 2000ft, but if
any authority required certification for private builders we would be wiped off the
face of the planet.
Next section is stability & buoyancy.
Alan






Sent from my iPad

From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com  Thu Nov 28 04:49:38 2013
From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 09:49:38 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjn+Zj4KaVznafrLE1e_ECN=MGnS5pO0FBihsPurhXOrsug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>
 <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
 <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjn+Zj4KaVznafrLE1e_ECN=MGnS5pO0FBihsPurhXOrsug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHpB=UDTBS9PpdRVd0rT_qgj-ACFc8-R8aZzsyg4V3oiJwp1Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

i enquired about insurance for my boat as i thought it was a requirement to
have insurance in order to use the boat in the harbour.

Anyway, i did get a quote for insurance for hull only, ?2250 a year.  This
was for hull only.  ie if it sunk, got crushed, lost, stolen etc, i could
claim (if i was still alive).  Expensive, but not unbearable.  They would
not insure an uncertified boat for liability.
Also, ive already had a request for a commercial job.  Inspecting something
in the local resovoir.  i explained to them that i was not insured and they
just said it was ok and they would sign a disclaimer similar sounding to
Carstens.  Supposed to be doing that next summer.  Should be interesting.

Regards
James
On 27 November 2013 21:13, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:

> Good logic Hank, I like that idea.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:42 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>wrote:
>
>>  Alan,
>> It will be interesting to compare the rules you will be following to what
>> Jon and I have.  If the rules differ, you can pick the most appropriate to
>> your build.  You will have the confidence that you are following at least
>> one governing body.
>> Hank
>>
>>
>>  On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:13:55 PM, Alan <
>> alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>   Hi Jon,
>> it will have some similar aspects to the ambient, which was really a
>> model /
>> mock up for a 1 ATM.
>> 1st stage is nailing down exactly what I need for certification, then
>> work with
>> CAD & models to come up with as small a hull as comfortably possible,
>> before
>> building. Give me a couple of years.......
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 28/11/2013, at 8:19 AM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think that's a great approach Alan.  It will be educational for
>> everyone.  So when do you start and is this a continuation of the ambient
>> or a new design.  I think we talked about this a bit in Florida but I've
>> forgotten.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> On 11/27/2013 2:07 PM, Alan James wrote:
>>
>>  My thoughts for going through the G.L. classification pdf
>> is to build as close as possible to certification standard.
>> I won't be certifying the build I'm starting.
>> I may abandon some of their requirements, but at least I'll know what
>> these are.
>>    I could go ahead with my build & buy all my electronic communication
>> equipment & life support etc, & find that if I'd payed a few bucks more or
>> made the right choices I would be compliant & could say I conform to
>> classification standards. This may be helpful when dealing with
>> authorities
>> at a later date, or selling the sub.
>> Cheers Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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From piolenc at archivale.com  Thu Nov 28 05:02:36 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 18:02:36 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Classification Overview
In-Reply-To: <99A92F92-33AE-4A84-86F2-79874463A642@yahoo.com>
References: <99A92F92-33AE-4A84-86F2-79874463A642@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <529714BC.5050402@archivale.com>



On 11/28/2013 5:39 PM, Alan wrote:

> Then comes the build, which may require an initial inspection of your work shop
> & that of sub contractors. You are required to have a quality management
> system in place such as ISO 9001, have qualified people employed & name
> your supervisor to them.

Well, that's tens of thousands of dollars for ISO certification right up 
front - that's if you can get it. This is worse than I thought.

> Any structural components are examined by the surveyor in uncoated condition.
> The pressure hull can be subjected to an external hydraulic pressure test at this
> Stage.

Another couple of tens of g's - if you can get the service. You've now 
spent the equivalent of two to four times the cost of actually 
constructing a small sub, and have nothing to show for it but (possibly) 
an approved bare hull.

> However there is a yearly inspection & a 2 &1/2 yearly inspection to maintain class.
> After 5 years you have to reclassify. I have no idea what these annual inspections
> cost but guess they are additional to the classification cost.

That's a safe bet. What a racket!

> I suppose these exhaustive tests have relevance in the commercial realm where
> your submersible may be at the coal face every day & going down 2000ft, but if
> any authority required certification for private builders we would be wiped off the
> face of the planet.

Yup. Glad I live in the Philippines. Here, if you're only risking your 
own life, it's pretty much your business... which is as it should be.

Marc

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Thu Nov 28 08:31:26 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 05:31:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Classification Overview
In-Reply-To: <529714BC.5050402@archivale.com>
References: <99A92F92-33AE-4A84-86F2-79874463A642@yahoo.com>
 <529714BC.5050402@archivale.com>
Message-ID: <1385645486.28489.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Mark,
If you wanted a certified sub, you are already prepared to pony up some hard earned bucks.? In most cases we as psubers would not expect to fabricate our own hull's and expect certification.? You would take your certified blueprints to a fab shop that only builds pressure vessels.? we have some awesome places here In Western Canada that could do it no problem.? These shops have all these requirements in place already.? These big shops need a year or so lead time, so it would not happen fast.? If you keep the design simple from a fabrication point of view, I think it is not out of reach for a regular guy.? I have learned with getting house moving permits that you just chip away at the regulations one by one and in no time you have it.? It takes three months to get a permit to move a large structure and one night to move it. :-) 
Hank



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:02:39 AM, Marc de Piolenc <piolenc at archivale.com> wrote:
  


On 11/28/2013 5:39 PM, Alan wrote:

> Then comes the build, which may require an initial inspection of your work shop
> & that of sub contractors. You are required to have a quality management
> system in place such as ISO 9001, have qualified people employed & name
> your supervisor to them.

Well, that's tens of thousands of dollars for ISO certification right up 
front - that's if you can get it. This is worse than I thought.

> Any structural components are examined by the surveyor in uncoated condition.
> The pressure hull can be subjected to an external hydraulic pressure test at this
> Stage.

Another couple of tens of g's - if you can get the service. You've now 
spent the equivalent of two to four times the cost of actually 
constructing a small sub, and have nothing to show for it but (possibly) 
an approved bare hull.

> However there is a yearly inspection & a 2 &1/2 yearly inspection to maintain class.
> After 5 years you have to reclassify. I have no idea what these annual inspections
> cost but guess they are additional to the classification cost.

That's a safe bet. What a racket!

> I suppose these exhaustive tests have relevance in the commercial realm where
> your submersible may be at the coal face every day & going down 2000ft, but if
> any authority required certification for private builders we would be wiped off the
> face of the planet.

Yup. Glad I live in the Philippines. Here, if you're only risking your 
own life, it's pretty much your business... which is as it should be.

Marc

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Thu Nov 28 09:54:52 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 09:54:52 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <CAHpB=UDTBS9PpdRVd0rT_qgj-ACFc8-R8aZzsyg4V3oiJwp1Kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org> <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
 <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjn+Zj4KaVznafrLE1e_ECN=MGnS5pO0FBihsPurhXOrsug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHpB=UDTBS9PpdRVd0rT_qgj-ACFc8-R8aZzsyg4V3oiJwp1Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5297593C.2090102@psubs.org>


James,

What is the maximum claim value of the policy?  Enough to purchase new 
steel or enough to cover fabrication and outsourcing?

Jon


On 11/28/2013 4:49 AM, James Frankland wrote:
> Hi All,
> i enquired about insurance for my boat as i thought it was a 
> requirement to have insurance in order to use the boat in the harbour.
>
> Anyway, i did get a quote for insurance for hull only, ?2250 a year.  
> This was for hull only.  ie if it sunk, got crushed, lost, stolen etc, 
> i could claim (if i was still alive). Expensive, but not unbearable.  
> They would not insure an uncertified boat for liability.
> Also, ive already had a request for a commercial job. Inspecting 
> something in the local resovoir.  i explained to them that i was not 
> insured and they just said it was ok and they would sign a disclaimer 
> similar sounding to Carstens.  Supposed to be doing that next summer.  
> Should be interesting.
> Regards
> James
>


From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com  Thu Nov 28 09:58:12 2013
From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 14:58:12 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification
In-Reply-To: <5297593C.2090102@psubs.org>
References: <1385422430.90114.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5294096D.4090300@psubs.org>
 <1385437935.85565.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <54FB86F22FC3457E9856D69E29CC4FD5@PhillPC>
 <1385453118.87215.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1VlOHy-0SuKmG0@fwd28.t-online.de> <5295031F.6020109@psubs.org>
 <1385499841.14237.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <C8303FCA495D46D6A6BB388F7EA4F65B@PhillPC>
 <15E696B8-521B-4C6C-B568-CC1F41942EB3@aol.com>
 <CAOGJjn+7OVrJj1x-ip8dq5g-yytT3Je3Djq5tbaK6FS+wNVn8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1Vlizq-0s6VcW0@fwd31.t-online.de>
 <CAOGJjnJk3P9JUGb4qZ82A-44yVX4cmcjBptBBWz0-NyPWJcT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1385579228.53888.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <529645D7.6090005@psubs.org>
 <E3BF8613-A623-430D-ACDD-B312E7047B25@yahoo.com>
 <1385584940.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjn+Zj4KaVznafrLE1e_ECN=MGnS5pO0FBihsPurhXOrsug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHpB=UDTBS9PpdRVd0rT_qgj-ACFc8-R8aZzsyg4V3oiJwp1Kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5297593C.2090102@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <CAHpB=UA=x88y7fjkvuUQZmots9AGG5+N+C_VfcgUsPLhKy6h0g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon

Maximum claim value is ?30,000

On 28 November 2013 14:54, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:

>
> James,
>
> What is the maximum claim value of the policy?  Enough to purchase new
> steel or enough to cover fabrication and outsourcing?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On 11/28/2013 4:49 AM, James Frankland wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>> i enquired about insurance for my boat as i thought it was a requirement
>> to have insurance in order to use the boat in the harbour.
>>
>> Anyway, i did get a quote for insurance for hull only, ?2250 a year.
>>  This was for hull only.  ie if it sunk, got crushed, lost, stolen etc, i
>> could claim (if i was still alive). Expensive, but not unbearable.  They
>> would not insure an uncertified boat for liability.
>> Also, ive already had a request for a commercial job. Inspecting
>> something in the local resovoir.  i explained to them that i was not
>> insured and they just said it was ok and they would sign a disclaimer
>> similar sounding to Carstens.  Supposed to be doing that next summer.
>>  Should be interesting.
>> Regards
>> James
>>
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Thu Nov 28 13:45:47 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 13:45:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Spray 3D
Message-ID: <8D0BA812FFEB973-1768-896DF@webmail-vm014.sysops.aol.com>


Yet another method of 3D printing under development.
Jim
http://www.ideaslaboratory.com/2013/11/07/3d-painting-is-a-fountain-of-youth-for-parts/
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 28 22:09:14 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 19:09:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Joe,
if you are meaning that your generator is removed for the dive & left
floating on the surface, then wouldn't it be easier & more economical
to have a small inflatable with an outboard motor ( which is designed for?
the environment), to tow the sub.
Or a straight outboard motor instead of a generator on the sub.
Could be hard going removing a generator or motor & attaching again
in poor conditions.
Alan


________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
 




I have a
question on my mind that I?d like to pose for ideas. It concerns primary
propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf cart motor for long
distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 5 miles one way.
?
What I am
thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable rudder Delta style. If
one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger
motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn a larger prop, ?be more reliable long term, etc?
As for power
drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride temporarily on deck behind
the sail in a purpose built ventilated enclosure that is quick release removable.
Could this not be connected to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the
main bus?
My goals
here are simple.
1)????? The ability to travel to relative distant
dive sites with relative ease
2)????? Reducing a surface support
requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.
3)????? The ability to satisfy power drain
and on site recharge capability without rafting at sea.
4)????? Eliminating the complexity and costs
associated with inboard diesel propulsion.
Ideas /
thoughts?
Joe
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca  Fri Nov 29 11:49:14 2013
From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 08:49:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385743754.85377.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Joe,
I have a similar plan, I hope to take a gas powered concrete saw that I already have, and mount a 24v alternator to it.
The nice thing about this engine is, it is 2stroke and it has a belt drive clutch on it already.?? It is basically a big chainsaw engine made by Huscavarna.? The idea is it will fit in a 5 gal pail with a sealed lid stowed in the sub.? I will make a mount on the deck of the sub to clamp it in.? I should be able to make 60a at 24v with it.? I am just not jumping into this until I?? am sure I need it.?? With 8 agm golf cart batteries I think I will have a 14mile range?
Hank



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:09:36 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Hi Joe,
if you are meaning that your generator is removed for the dive & left
floating on the surface, then wouldn't it be easier & more economical
to have a small inflatable with an outboard motor ( which is designed for?
the environment), to tow the sub.
Or a straight outboard motor instead of a generator on the sub.
Could be hard going removing a generator or motor & attaching again
in poor conditions.
Alan
 

________________________________
 From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
  




I have a
question on my mind that I?d like to pose for ideas. It concerns primary
propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf cart motor for long
distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 5 miles one way.
?
What I am
thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable rudder Delta style. If
one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger
motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn a larger prop, ?be more reliable long term, etc?
As for power
drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride temporarily on deck behind
the sail in a purpose built ventilated enclosure that is quick release removable.
Could this not be connected to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the
main bus?
My goals
here are simple.
1)????? The ability to travel to relative distant
dive sites with relative ease
2)????? Reducing a surface support
requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.
3)????? The ability to satisfy power drain
and on site recharge capability without rafting at sea.
4)????? Eliminating the complexity and costs
associated with inboard diesel propulsion.
Ideas /
thoughts?
Joe
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


   

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov 29 12:12:55 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 12:12:55 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5298CB17.20203@psubs.org>


Except for calm lake conditions I don't think a piggy-back generator is 
practical.  On open ocean it is not a simple task to support sub dive 
ops.  Take another look at the "psychedelic sub" video from Islamorada 
this year and note the bobbing of the sub, the divers, and the support 
boat in only 2 foot seas.  Having been in that water helping 
weight-balance Snoopy, I can't imagine trying to load/unload a generator 
(even a small one) from the top of it.

A small semi-rigid inflatable also won't be practical as surface support 
in such conditions.  Doug's 25 foot boston whaler was being tossed 
pretty well and drifting heavily.  Who wants to be 5 miles out on the 
open ocean in a small cramped inflatable fighting wave, wind and current?

Jon


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
>
>
> I have a question on my mind that I'd like to pose for ideas. It 
> concerns primary propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf 
> cart motor for long distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 
> 5 miles one way.
> What I am thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable 
> rudder Delta style. If one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is 
> required, wouldn't the larger motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn 
> a larger prop, be more reliable long term, etc?
> As for power drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride 
> temporarily on deck behind the sail in a purpose built ventilated 
> enclosure that is quick release removable. Could this not be connected 
> to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the main bus?
> My goals here are simple.
> 1)The ability to travel to relative distant dive sites with relative ease
> 2)Reducing a surface support requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.
> 3)The ability to satisfy power drain and on site recharge capability 
> without rafting at sea.
> 4)Eliminating the complexity and costs associated with inboard diesel 
> propulsion.
> Ideas / thoughts?
> Joe
>
>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 29 13:47:36 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 10:47:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <5298CB17.20203@psubs.org>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5298CB17.20203@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <1385750856.97019.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Good points all Jon.

Joe



On Friday, November 29, 2013 12:12 PM, Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org> wrote:
  

Except for calm lake conditions I don't think a piggy-back generator
    is practical.? On open ocean it is not a simple task to support sub
    dive ops.? Take another look at the "psychedelic sub" video from
    Islamorada this year and note the bobbing of the sub, the divers,
    and the support boat in only 2 foot seas.? Having been in that water
    helping weight-balance Snoopy, I can't imagine trying to load/unload
    a generator (even a small one) from the top of it.

A small semi-rigid inflatable also won't be practical as surface
    support in such conditions.? Doug's 25 foot boston whaler was being
    tossed pretty well and drifting heavily.? Who wants to be 5 miles
    out on the open ocean in a small cramped inflatable fighting wave,
    wind and current?

Jon





>________________________________
> From: Joe Perkel mailto:josephperkel at yahoo.com
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
>Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
>  
>
>
>
> 
>I have a question on my mind that I?d like to pose for ideas. It concerns primary propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf cart motor for long distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 5 miles one way. 
>? 
>What I am thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable rudder Delta style. If one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn a larger prop, ?be more reliable long term, etc?  
>As for power drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride temporarily on deck behind the sail in a purpose built ventilated enclosure that is quick release removable. Could this not be connected to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the main bus?  
>My goals here are simple.  
>1)????? The ability to travel to relative distant dive sites with relative ease  
>2)????? Reducing a surface support requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.  
>3)????? The ability to satisfy power drain and on site recharge capability without rafting at sea.  
>4)????? Eliminating the complexity and costs associated with inboard diesel propulsion.  
>Ideas / thoughts?  
>Joe        
>
>     

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 29 14:46:32 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 08:46:32 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <1385743754.85377.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385743754.85377.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D6D7B197-4E16-462C-9E22-45FA03935808@yahoo.com>

Hank,
I have thought about buying a small inflatable that I can flip
upside down on top of my sub for transport.
That way you don't need another car & trailer for a support boat.
It would be good for extending your range a bit & enabling
you to transit to the dive site in a bit more comfort.
Also you could accommodate a support person & mount a 
dive flag on it.
Of course it would have it's limitations.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 30/11/2013, at 5:49 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Joe,
> I have a similar plan, I hope to take a gas powered concrete saw that I already have, and mount a 24v alternator to it.
> The nice thing about this engine is, it is 2stroke and it has a belt drive clutch on it already.   It is basically a big chainsaw engine made by Huscavarna.  The idea is it will fit in a 5 gal pail with a sealed lid stowed in the sub.  I will make a mount on the deck of the sub to clamp it in.  I should be able to make 60a at 24v with it.  I am just not jumping into this until I   am sure I need it.   With 8 agm golf cart batteries I think I will have a 14mile range?
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:09:36 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote
> Hi Joe,
> if you are meaning that your generator is removed for the dive & left
> floating on the surface, then wouldn't it be easier & more economical
> to have a small inflatable with an outboard motor ( which is designed for 
> the environment), to tow the sub.
> Or a straight outboard motor instead of a generator on the sub.
> Could be hard going removing a generator or motor & attaching again
> in poor conditions.
> Alan
> 
> From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
> 
> 
> I have a question on my mind that I?d like to pose for ideas. It concerns primary propulsion and the potential use of an electric golf cart motor for long distance surface transit say in the order of 4 to 5 miles one way.
>  
> What I am thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead of a moveable rudder Delta style. If one were to use say a 5hp motor where 2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn a larger prop,  be more reliable long term, etc?
> As for power drain, what if a portable Honda generator could ride temporarily on deck behind the sail in a purpose built ventilated enclosure that is quick release removable. Could this not be connected to a purpose built electrical thru hull feeding the main bus?
> My goals here are simple.
> 1)      The ability to travel to relative distant dive sites with relative ease
> 2)      Reducing a surface support requirement to a small semi-rigid inflatable.
> 3)      The ability to satisfy power drain and on site recharge capability without rafting at sea.
> 4)      Eliminating the complexity and costs associated with inboard diesel propulsion.
> Ideas / thoughts?
> Joe
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 29 19:40:48 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:40:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
Message-ID: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,
While reading through some background info for the G.L.
certification document, I came across this link with a good
explanation of stability & buoyancy
http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm

There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be?
unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
surface to diving & vice versa.
This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
you dropped your emergency drop weight.
I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
be others in the same boat.
Regards Alan
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Fri Nov 29 21:54:39 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:54:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


Hi Alan,

Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been below the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2" above the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly, that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.

When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.  Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats, they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from any direct discussion of metacenter for now.

My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the surfaced water line would be if I installed the saddles at 4:00 and 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.

Jim





-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy






Hi everyone,
While reading through some background info for the G.L.
certification document, I came across this link with a good
explanation of stability & buoyancy
http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm

There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be 
unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
surface to diving & vice versa.
This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
you dropped your emergency drop weight.
I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
be others in the same boat.
Regards Alan







_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
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From jonw at psubs.org  Fri Nov 29 22:09:29 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 22:09:29 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <529956E9.4040201@psubs.org>


I'm somewhat a novice with CG and CB but it does occur to me that the 
illustration in the document shows a circumferential ballast tank which 
from the perspective of CB must be the worst type to employ.  The K-350 
design with both drop weight and battery compartments well below the 
ballast tanks provide an extremely low CG with CB well above it at all 
times.


On 11/29/2013 9:54 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of 
> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had 
> been /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really 
> scary.  The ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be 
> at least 2" /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged. In the event the 
> drop weight is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the 
> CG.  Frankly, that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead 
> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that 
> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore 
> the above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving 
> downward.  Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks 
> were contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full 
> of water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air 
> they move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the 
> K-boats, they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  
> However remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the 
> water contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks 
> don't contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're 
> dependent on the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely 
> staying away from any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design 
> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the 
> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 
> and 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top 
> of the saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me 
> maximum lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above 
> the water line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a 
> portion of the saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll 
> since the down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and 
> buoyancy to push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that 
> side of the sub). The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, 
> but less CB/CG spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your 
> surface stability, but you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge 
> is finding the optimum level.
> Jim
>

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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Fri Nov 29 22:45:36 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 22:45:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <529956E9.4040201@psubs.org>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <529956E9.4040201@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <8D0BB95C341D797-7B0-8C5BB@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


Yeah, Jon, the concept of a keel tank seems a bit spooky.  Trim tanks are often at the bottom of the boat but not below it, and their function has more to do with trim weight than with buoyancy. 

To clarify what I said:  "The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less            CB/CG spread."  That's true when the tanks are intersecting the water line.  Once they are completely below the water line, moving them any lower isn't going to give you more freeboard, but it will lower your CB.   Not good.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 9:10 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy


          
    

      I'm somewhat a novice with CG and CB but it does occur to me that      the illustration in the document shows a circumferential ballast      tank which from the perspective of CB must be the worst type to      employ.  The K-350 design with both drop weight and battery      compartments well below the ballast tanks provide an extremely low      CG with CB well above it at all times. 
      
      
      On 11/29/2013 9:54 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
    
    
        
Hi            Alan,
        
 
        
Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward            past the centre of gravity... "  This implies that somehow            the centre of buoyancy had been below the centre            of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The ABS            rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at            least 2" above the CG when the sub is submerged.             In the event the drop weight is released, the CB must still            be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly, that narrow a spread            doesn't meet my comfort zone.
        
 
        
When the sub is surfaced, any portion above            the water line is now dead weight since it is no longer            displacing any water.  When that same portion was submerged            it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the            above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving            downward.  Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast            tanks were contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent            they were full of water when the sub was submerged.  Once            they are filed with air they move the CB upward.  If the            tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats, they are located            even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However remember            that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water            contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the            tanks don't contribute much to lateral stability            (anti-roll); you're dependent on the CB/CG spread for            lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from            any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
        
 
        
My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan            for setting design procedures for adding saddle tanks was            this:  Calculate where the surfaced water line would be if            I installed the saddles at 4:00 and 8:00 positions, then            actually install them higher so that the top of the saddles            would be right at the water line.  This would give me            maximum lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles            would be above the water line.  However Alec correctly            pointed out that having a portion of the saddles above the            water line contributes to anti-roll since the down-rolling            tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to            push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side            of the sub).             The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less            CB/CG spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your            surface stability, but you sacrifice freeboard.  The design            challenge is finding the optimum level.
        
 
        
Jim
        
 
      
    
    
  

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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 29 23:26:45 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 20:26:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BB95C341D797-7B0-8C5BB@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1385785605.55115.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

This issue, explains the existence of the snorkel in the K-350. Imagine for a moment, the loss of a MBT, or the flooding of a battery pod.<br/><br/>I tell you, a lot of thought went into this little boat. Every time I look to exceed the parameters, I see better the original intent. Every time!<br/><br/>Joe<a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS"><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 00:03:35 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 00:03:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385785605.55115.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385785605.55115.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0BBA0A86163D9-7B0-8C88A@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


Joe,

That brings up another design standard.  If everything except the pressure hull itself floods, the release of the drop weight must result in positive buoyancy.  So if both battery pods and all ballast tanks flood, you should still be able to surface by releasing the drop weight.  If the drop weight also sticks, you're screwed!

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 10:27 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy




This issue, explains the existence of the snorkel in the K-350. Imagine for a moment, the loss of a MBT, or the flooding of a battery pod.

I tell you, a lot of thought went into this little boat. Every time I look to exceed the parameters, I see better the original intent. Every time!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

            
                
                    
                    
                        
                            
                                                            From:                                                        jimtoddpsub at aol.com <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>;                            
                                                            To:                                                         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;                                                                                                     
                                                            Subject:                                                        Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy                            
                                                            Sent:                                                        Sat, Nov 30, 2013 3:45:36 AM                            
                        
                            
                            
                                
                                    
                                        
Yeah, Jon, the concept of a keel tank seems a bit spooky.  Trim tanks are often at the bottom of the boat but not below it, and their function has more to do with trim weight than with buoyancy. 
 
To clarify what I said:  "The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less            CB/CG spread."  That's true when the tanks are intersecting the water line.  Once they are completely below the water line, moving them any lower isn't going to give you more freeboard, but it will lower your CB.   Not good.
 
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 9:10 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy


          
    

      I'm somewhat a novice with CG and CB but it does occur to me that      the illustration in the document shows a circumferential ballast      tank which from the perspective of CB must be the worst type to      employ.  The K-350 design with both drop weight and battery      compartments well below the ballast tanks provide an extremely low      CG with CB well above it at all times. 
      
      
      On 11/29/2013 9:54 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
    
    
        
Hi            Alan,
        
 
        
Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward            past the centre of gravity... "  This implies that somehow            the centre of buoyancy had been below the centre            of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The ABS            rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at            least 2" above the CG when the sub is submerged.             In the event the drop weight is released, the CB must still            be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly, that narrow a spread            doesn't meet my comfort zone.
        
 
        
When the sub is surfaced, any portion above            the water line is now dead weight since it is no longer            displacing any water.  When that same portion was submerged            it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the            above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving            downward.  Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast            tanks were contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent            they were full of water when the sub was submerged.  Once            they are filed with air they move the CB upward.  If the            tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats, they are located            even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However remember            that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water            contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the            tanks don't contribute much to lateral stability            (anti-roll); you're dependent on the CB/CG spread for            lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from            any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
        
 
        
My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan            for setting design procedures for adding saddle tanks was            this:  Calculate where the surfaced water line would be if            I installed the saddles at 4:00 and 8:00 positions, then            actually install them higher so that the top of the saddles            would be right at the water line.  This would give me            maximum lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles            would be above the water line.  However Alec correctly            pointed out that having a portion of the saddles above the            water line contributes to anti-roll since the down-rolling            tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to            push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side            of the sub).             The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less            CB/CG spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your            surface stability, but you sacrifice freeboard.  The design            challenge is finding the optimum level.
        
 
        
Jim
        
 
      
    
    
  


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Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
                                    
                                
                            
                    
                
            

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From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 00:26:35 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:26:35 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5299770B.1010404@archivale.com>

Good point. Stability criteria on the surface and submerged are very 
different, the latter being much easier to assess. Stability during 
transition from one to the other, with the main ballast tanks half full 
and water free to slosh, is very complex to assess, but very important 
for the very reason given. I haven't yet found a text that does anything 
more than mention this problem, however!

Marc

On 11/30/2013 8:40 AM, Alan James wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
> certification document, I came across this link with a good
> explanation of stability & buoyancy
> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
> surface to diving & vice versa.
> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
> be others in the same boat.
> Regards Alan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 00:29:15 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:29:15 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>

On the surface, the center of buoyancy is USUALLY below the center of 
gravity, but this does not make it necessarily unstable. That's why the 
metacenter of the boat needs to be determined.

When fully submerged, the CB must be above the CG, and it is very easy 
to determine whether this is so.

Marc

On 11/30/2013 10:54 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of
> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been
> /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The
> ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2"
> /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight
> is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly,
> that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead
> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that
> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the
> above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.
> Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were
> contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of
> water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they
> move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats,
> they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However
> remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water
> contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't
> contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on
> the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from
> any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design
> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the
> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 and
> 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the
> saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum
> lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water
> line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the
> saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the
> down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to
> push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the
> sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG
> spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but
> you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>
> Hi everyone,
> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
> certification document, I came across this link with a good
> explanation of stability & buoyancy
> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
> surface to diving & vice versa.
> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
> be others in the same boat.
> Regards Alan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 00:55:09 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:55:09 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
Message-ID: <BC87FECB-710B-4207-9C61-63647F9CF20A@yahoo.com>

I guess with open ballast tanks, if you did find
yourself upside down because of this phenomena,
the remaining air in the ballast tanks would bubble out
& you would reach a state where the low CG would turn you
round, providing that you weren't now sitting on the ceiling &
changing the CG. 
I wonder if Vance has had any experience with this?
Alan


Sent from my iPad

On 30/11/2013, at 6:29 PM, Marc de Piolenc <piolenc at archivale.com> wrote:

> On the surface, the center of buoyancy is USUALLY below the center of gravity, but this does not make it necessarily unstable. That's why the metacenter of the boat needs to be determined.
> 
> When fully submerged, the CB must be above the CG, and it is very easy to determine whether this is so.
> 
> Marc
> 
> On 11/30/2013 10:54 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
>> Hi Alan,
>> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of
>> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been
>> /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The
>> ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2"
>> /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight
>> is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly,
>> that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
>> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead
>> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that
>> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the
>> above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.
>> Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were
>> contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of
>> water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they
>> move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats,
>> they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However
>> remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water
>> contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't
>> contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on
>> the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from
>> any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
>> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design
>> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the
>> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 and
>> 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the
>> saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum
>> lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water
>> line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the
>> saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the
>> down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to
>> push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the
>> sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG
>> spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but
>> you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.
>> Jim
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
>> To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>> 
>> Hi everyone,
>> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>> certification document, I came across this link with a good
>> explanation of stability & buoyancy
>> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>> surface to diving & vice versa.
>> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>> be others in the same boat.
>> Regards Alan
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> -- 
> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 00:59:45 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 00:59:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
Message-ID: <8D0BBA8811BB48A-7B0-8C9C0@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


Marc,
When you say the CB is usually below the CG when on the surface, are you speaking about military subs or including small subs as well?  I'd like to see how some of the K-boats calculated out both surfaced and submerged.

I found this US Navy training film from WWII.  It shows the ballast tanks wrapping around the bottom of the pressure hull very much like the illustrations that Alan provided.  But apparently the tanks were generally not blown all the way down.  In my mind I had not pictured the MBTs extending below the pressure hull on the old military subs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7ixYuCObUk

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc de Piolenc piolenc at archivale.com

On the surface, the center of buoyancy is USUALLY below the center of 
gravity, but this does not make it necessarily unstable. That's why the 
metacenter of the boat needs to be determined.

When fully submerged, the CB must be above the CG, and it is very easy 
to determine whether this is so.

Marc

On 11/30/2013 10:54 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of
> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been
> /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The
> ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2"
> /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight
> is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly,
> that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead
> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that
> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the
> above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.
> Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were
> contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of
> water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they
> move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats,
> they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However
> remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water
> contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't
> contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on
> the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from
> any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design
> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the
> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 and
> 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the
> saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum
> lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water
> line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the
> saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the
> down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to
> push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the
> sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG
> spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but
> you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
> To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>
> Hi everyone,
> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
> certification document, I came across this link with a good
> explanation of stability & buoyancy
> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
> surface to diving & vice versa.
> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
> be others in the same boat.
> Regards Alan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 01:55:16 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 14:55:16 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BBA8811BB48A-7B0-8C9C0@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
 <8D0BBA8811BB48A-7B0-8C9C0@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <52998BD4.2020107@archivale.com>

I don't know specifically about minisubs because I've never worked out 
the metacenter for one or seen it done, but it is very difficult in 
actuality to have the CB below the CG, and as a practical matter it can 
only be accomplished in a low freeboard, low reserve buoyancy craft - in 
other words, a dangerous one.

Military subs definitely use the same criteria as surface vessels for 
determining stability on the surface. There's ample evidence of that in 
the textbooks.

My understanding is that MBTs ARE emptied completely on the surface in 
naval submarines, initially with compressed air to reach the surface and 
then with low-pressure blowers or with bilge pumps. Some subs, however, 
are not equipped with Kingston valves - in other words, the bottom of 
the ballast tank is always open to sea - which of course means that 
there would have to be enough water in the tank to provide a hydraulic 
seal for the air trapped there. Supposedly, Russian subs have Kingstons 
and British and American ones don't, but don't hold me to that.

Because of the potential for "tank burps" if the sub rolls or pitches 
enough to allow the bubble to escape, any sub that I build will have 
Kingston valves or the equivalent.

Best,
Marc

On 11/30/2013 1:59 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
> Marc,
> When you say the CB is usually below the CG when on the surface, are you
> speaking about military subs or including small subs as well?  I'd like
> to see how some of the K-boats calculated out both surfaced and submerged.
> I found this US Navy training film from WWII.  It shows the ballast
> tanks wrapping around the bottom of the pressure hull very much like the
> illustrations that Alan provided.  But apparently the tanks were
> generally not blown all the way down.  In my mind I had not pictured
> the MBTs extending below the pressure hull on the old military subs.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7ixYuCObUk
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc de Piolenc piolenc at archivale.com <mailto:piolenc at archivale.com>
>
> On the surface, the center of buoyancy is USUALLY below the center of
> gravity, but this does not make it necessarily unstable. That's why the
> metacenter of the boat needs to be determined.
>
> When fully submerged, the CB must be above the CG, and it is very easy
> to determine whether this is so.
>
> Marc
>
> On 11/30/2013 10:54 AM,jimtoddpsub at aol.com  <mailto:jimtoddpsub at aol.com>  wrote:
>> Hi Alan,
>> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of
>> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been
>> /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The
>> ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2"
>> /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight
>> is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly,
>> that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
>> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead
>> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that
>> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the
>> above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.
>> Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were
>> contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of
>> water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they
>> move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats,
>> they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However
>> remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water
>> contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't
>> contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on
>> the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from
>> any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
>> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design
>> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the
>> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 and
>> 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the
>> saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum
>> lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water
>> line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the
>> saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the
>> down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to
>> push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the
>> sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG
>> spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but
>> you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.
>> Jim
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  <mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>>
>> To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>> certification document, I came across this link with a good
>> explanation of stability & buoyancy
>>http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>> surface to diving & vice versa.
>> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>> be others in the same boat.
>> Regards Alan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>   <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org?>>
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>
> --
> Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> Polymath weblog:http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> Translations (ProZ profile):http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
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> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 02:31:43 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 20:31:43 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <52998BD4.2020107@archivale.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BB8EA5C993D2-7B0-8C342@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <529977AB.2080006@archivale.com>
 <8D0BBA8811BB48A-7B0-8C9C0@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
 <52998BD4.2020107@archivale.com>
Message-ID: <7F679FA2-1D58-4FA2-9401-C05CDC7A1FED@yahoo.com>

Re the CB below CG,
The centre of buoyancy is the centre of the volume below the water
Line. In an extreme hypothetical case, if the buoyancy tanks were
so large that the submarine was exactly half way out of the water, then
The CB would be calculated on the centre of volume of the bottom
half of the sub plus that area of the empty ballast tanks below the water
Level. This would give a low CB. 
    With heavy conning towers heightening the CG & a minimum required
freeboard for safe operation, it is conceivable that the CG could be above
CB in a surfaced state.  
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 30/11/2013, at 7:55 PM, Marc de Piolenc <piolenc at archivale.com> wrote:

> I don't know specifically about minisubs because I've never worked out the metacenter for one or seen it done, but it is very difficult in actuality to have the CB below the CG, and as a practical matter it can only be accomplished in a low freeboard, low reserve buoyancy craft - in other words, a dangerous one.
> 
> Military subs definitely use the same criteria as surface vessels for determining stability on the surface. There's ample evidence of that in the textbooks.
> 
> My understanding is that MBTs ARE emptied completely on the surface in naval submarines, initially with compressed air to reach the surface and then with low-pressure blowers or with bilge pumps. Some subs, however, are not equipped with Kingston valves - in other words, the bottom of the ballast tank is always open to sea - which of course means that there would have to be enough water in the tank to provide a hydraulic seal for the air trapped there. Supposedly, Russian subs have Kingstons and British and American ones don't, but don't hold me to that.
> 
> Because of the potential for "tank burps" if the sub rolls or pitches enough to allow the bubble to escape, any sub that I build will have Kingston valves or the equivalent.
> 
> Best,
> Marc
> 
> On 11/30/2013 1:59 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
>> Marc,
>> When you say the CB is usually below the CG when on the surface, are you
>> speaking about military subs or including small subs as well?  I'd like
>> to see how some of the K-boats calculated out both surfaced and submerged.
>> I found this US Navy training film from WWII.  It shows the ballast
>> tanks wrapping around the bottom of the pressure hull very much like the
>> illustrations that Alan provided.  But apparently the tanks were
>> generally not blown all the way down.  In my mind I had not pictured
>> the MBTs extending below the pressure hull on the old military subs.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7ixYuCObUk
>> Jim
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marc de Piolenc piolenc at archivale.com <mailto:piolenc at archivale.com>
>> 
>> On the surface, the center of buoyancy is USUALLY below the center of
>> gravity, but this does not make it necessarily unstable. That's why the
>> metacenter of the boat needs to be determined.
>> 
>> When fully submerged, the CB must be above the CG, and it is very easy
>> to determine whether this is so.
>> 
>> Marc
>> 
>> On 11/30/2013 10:54 AM,jimtoddpsub at aol.com  <mailto:jimtoddpsub at aol.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi Alan,
>>> Re: "the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of
>>> gravity... "  This implies that somehow the centre of buoyancy had been
>>> /below/ the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.  The
>>> ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet) is that the CB must be at least 2"
>>> /above/ the CG when the sub is submerged.  In the event the drop weight
>>> is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.  Frankly,
>>> that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone.
>>> When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead
>>> weight since it is no longer displacing any water.  When that
>>> same portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.  Therefore the
>>> above-the-water-line portion contributes to the CB moving downward.
>>> Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were
>>> contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of
>>> water when the sub was submerged.  Once they are filed with air they
>>> move the CB upward.  If the tanks are fore and aft as on the K-boats,
>>> they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.  However
>>> remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water
>>> contributes no buoyancy.  With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't
>>> contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on
>>> the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.  I'm purposely staying away from
>>> any direct discussion of metacenter for now.
>>> My MBT's are fore and aft.  My original plan for setting design
>>> procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:  Calculate where the
>>> surfaced water line would be _/if/_ I installed the saddles at 4:00 and
>>> 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the
>>> saddles would be right at the water line.  This would give me maximum
>>> lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water
>>> line.  However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the
>>> saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the
>>> down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to
>>> push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the
>>> sub).  The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG
>>> spread.  The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but
>>> you sacrifice freeboard.  The design challenge is finding the optimum level.
>>> Jim
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  <mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>>
>>> To: psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>>> Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:41 pm
>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>>> 
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>>> certification document, I came across this link with a good
>>> explanation of stability & buoyancy
>>> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>>> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>>> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>>> surface to diving & vice versa.
>>> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>>> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>>> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>>> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>>> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>>> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>>> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>>> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>>> be others in the same boat.
>>> Regards Alan
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>   <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org?>>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> --
>> Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com/catalog
>> Polymath weblog:http://www.archivale.com/weblog
>> Translations (ProZ profile):http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
>> Translations (BeWords profile):http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
>> Ducted fans:http://massflow.archivale.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> 
> -- 
> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
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> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From MerlinSub at t-online.de  Sat Nov 30 05:51:00 2013
From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( )
Date: 30 Nov 2013 10:51 GMT
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>

Hi Alan, 

additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
 
There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
If you surface fast and with to small opening in the 
bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can 
move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy 
side angles during surfacing until the water rush out. 

The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing 
in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water 
but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.

But on a military one with there tons of 
water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing 
it can be a problem. 

By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". 
On dive station or surfaced. 
And great openings in the bottom of the sail. 

Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some 
bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.

On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a 
compressed air blow out system can blow away the 
tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons 
during blowing the tanks or have a air leak 
in the in the pipe to the tanks.

vbr Carsten 
  

"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb: 
Hi everyone,
While reading through some background info for the G.L.
certification document, I came across this link with a good
explanation of stability & buoyancy
http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm

There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be 
unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
surface to diving & vice versa.
This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
you dropped your emergency drop weight.
I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
be others in the same boat.
Regards Alan


 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 06:49:29 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 03:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1385812169.70842.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

BTW Alan, that document you stumbled upon is an excerpt from the NAVPERS 16180 Fleet Type Submarine manual from WW2. I have had a copy of this on CD for years and this manual while chock full of interesting and informative stuff, it has been the single biggest influence on me with regards to an upward design spiral. <br/><br/>Stop reading it, it's pure evil! )<br/><br/>Joe<a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS"><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 07:10:34 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 04:10:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385812169.70842.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385813434.13232.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Marc's comment about the low pressure blow is worth taking note for those looking to build in massive reserve buoyancy. Those Fleet boats had a 600 lb HP manifold and a 10 lb blower manifold purged the tanks once surfaced. Of course were talking about tons of water per tank. The trade offs for us to contend with are HP air, and battery consumption, but one could install a small dedicated compressor to purge the tanks once your snorkel (air induction mast) was above water.<br/><br/>Incidentally, reserve buoyancy defined as that which is above the waterline. Such buoyancy comes into play for walking on deck and more importantly to oppose / resist heave.<br/><br/>Joe<a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS"><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>
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From josephperkel at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 08:00:17 2013
From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 05:00:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BBA0A86163D9-7B0-8C88A@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1385785605.55115.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BBA0A86163D9-7B0-8C88A@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1385816417.37565.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Jim,

There lies the blow and go last resort. Clever design huh? I wish I had met the man.

I have seven years to finalize a design and part of my decision point is whether of not to exceed sport diving depth. Around here, I don't have to, there's plenty to do and see in relatively shallow water.

This is why I am so tempted to upsize to something North of a K-350, but well South of Kraka. I wonder what you get if you breed a Delta and a Freya? :)

Joe





On Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:05 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com> wrote:
  
Joe, 
? 
That brings up another design standard.? If everything except the pressure hull itself floods, the release of the drop weight must result in positive buoyancy.? So if both battery pods and all ballast tanks flood, you should still be able to surface by releasing the drop weight.? If the drop weight also sticks, you're screwed! 
? 
Jim   
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 10:27 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy


This issue, explains the existence of the snorkel in the K-350. Imagine for a moment, the loss of a MBT, or the flooding of a battery pod.

I tell you, a lot of thought went into this little boat. Every time I look to exceed the parameters, I see better the original intent. Every time!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad  



________________________________
 From:  jimtoddpsub at aol.com <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>; 
To:  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy 
Sent:  Sat, Nov 30, 2013 3:45:36 AM 
 

 
Yeah, Jon, the concept of a keel tank seems a bit spooky.? Trim tanks are often at the bottom of the boat but?not below it, and their function has more to do with trim weight than with buoyancy.? 
? 
To clarify what I said:? "The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less            CB/CG spread."? That's true when the tanks are intersecting the water line.? Once they are completely below the water line, moving them any lower isn't going to give you more freeboard, but it will lower your CB.?? Not good. 
? 
Jim   
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 9:10 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy



I'm somewhat a novice with CG and CB but it does occur to me that
      the illustration in the document shows a circumferential ballast
      tank which from the perspective of CB must be the worst type to
      employ.? The K-350 design with both drop weight and battery
      compartments well below the ballast tanks provide an extremely low
      CG with CB well above it at all times. 


On 11/29/2013 9:54 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
 
 
>Hi Alan, 
>
>Re:?"the centre of buoyancy moving upward past the centre of gravity...?"? This implies that?somehow the centre of buoyancy had been below the centre of gravity which would be really, really scary.? The ABS rule (per Cliff's spreadsheet)?is that the CB must be at least 2" above the CG when the sub is submerged.? In the event the drop weight is released, the CB must still be at least 1" above the CG.? Frankly, that narrow a spread doesn't meet my comfort zone. 
>
>When the sub is surfaced, any portion above the water line is now dead weight since it is no longer displacing any water.? When that same?portion was submerged it was contributing buoyancy.? Therefore the above-the-water-line portion contributes to the?CB moving downward.? Offsetting that is the fact that the main ballast tanks were contributing little or no buoyancy to the extent they were full of water?when the sub was submerged.? Once they are filed with air they move the CB upward.? If the tanks are fore and aft?as on the K-boats, they are located even with the top of the cylindrical hull.? However remember that the portion of the ballast tanks now above the water contributes no buoyancy.? With the fore and aft tanks, the tanks don't contribute much to lateral stability (anti-roll); you're dependent on the CB/CG spread for lateral stability.? I'm purposely staying away from any?direct discussion of?metacenter for now. 
>
>My MBT's are fore and aft.??My original plan for?setting design procedures for adding saddle tanks was this:? Calculate where the surfaced water line would be if I installed the saddles at 4:00 and 8:00 positions, then actually install them higher so that the top of the saddles would be right at the water line.? This would give me maximum lift and freeboard since no part of the saddles would be above the water line.? However Alec correctly pointed out that having a portion of the saddles above the water line contributes to anti-roll since the down-rolling tank would then provide extra displacement and buoyancy to push that side back up (handy if someone steps on that side of the sub).? The lower your tanks, the greater your freeboard, but less CB/CG spread.? The higher your tanks, the greater your surface stability, but you sacrifice freeboard.? The design challenge is finding the optimum level. 
>
>Jim 
>
> 
   
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Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles          
_______________________________________________
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From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 10:01:37 2013
From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 04:01:37 +1300
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <67E28B61-3586-472F-9147-B0990A2897D3@yahoo.com>

Thanks Carsten,
I hadn't thought of the water in a sail.
Good picture.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 30/11/2013, at 11:51 PM, " " <MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote:

> Hi Alan, 
> 
> additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
>  
> There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
> If you surface fast and with to small opening in the 
> bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can 
> move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy 
> side angles during surfacing until the water rush out. 
> 
> The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing 
> in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water 
> but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
> 
> But on a military one with there tons of 
> water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing 
> it can be a problem. 
> 
> By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
> and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". 
> On dive station or surfaced. 
> And great openings in the bottom of the sail. 
> 
> Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some 
> bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
> work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.
> 
> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a 
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the 
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons 
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak 
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
> 
> vbr Carsten 
>   
> 
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:
> Hi everyone,
> While reading through some background info for the G.L.
> certification document, I came across this link with a good
> explanation of stability & buoyancy
> http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
> There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be 
> unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
> surface to diving & vice versa.
> This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
> the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
> submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
> This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
> you dropped your emergency drop weight.
> I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
> descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
> I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
> be others in the same boat.
> Regards Alan
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
> 
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
> <IMG_8382a.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 10:01:47 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 10:01:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385812169.70842.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385812169.70842.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D0BBF439A5A7D8-7B0-8D87B@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


The Navy training film on youtube I linked to earlier is from 1955 and not from WW2.  Here's a good, brief article of historical development of saddle tanks on military subs.  Since the mid-1950s most military subs have had their ballast tanks inside the pressure hull.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_tank_(submarine)

Surprisingly the ballast tanks on WW1 German subs were low inside the pressure hull with flat tops.  This sometimes presented problems when the crew needed to blow at depth.  

Jim




-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 5:50 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy




BTW Alan, that document you stumbled upon is an excerpt from the NAVPERS 16180 Fleet Type Submarine manual from WW2. I have had a copy of this on CD for years and this manual while chock full of interesting and informative stuff, it has been the single biggest influence on me with regards to an upward design spiral. 

Stop reading it, it's pure evil! )

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

            
                
                    
                    
                        
                            
                                                            From:                                                        MerlinSub at t-online.de <MerlinSub at t-online.de>;                            
                                                            To:                                                        Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;                                                                                                     
                                                            Subject:                                                        Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy                            
                                                            Sent:                                                        Sat, Nov 30, 2013 10:51:00 AM                            
                        
                            
                            
                                
                                    
                                        
Hi Alan, 

additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
 
There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
If you surface fast and with to small opening in the 
bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can 
move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy 
side angles during surfacing until the water rush out. 

The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing 
in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water 
but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.

But on a military one with there tons of 
water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing 
it can be a problem. 

By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". 
On dive station or surfaced. 
And great openings in the bottom of the sail. 

Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some 
bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.

On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a 
compressed air blow out system can blow away the 
tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons 
during blowing the tanks or have a air leak 
in the in the pipe to the tanks.

vbr Carsten 
 

"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:




Hi everyone,
While reading through some background info for the G.L.
certification document, I came across this link with a good
explanation of stability & buoyancy
http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm

There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be 
unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
surface to diving & vice versa.
This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
you dropped your emergency drop weight.
I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
be others in the same boat.
Regards Alan






 

-- 

Carsten Standfu?
Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
Heinrich Reck Str.12A
18211 Admannshagen

0172 8464 420
WWW.Euronaut.org
Carsten at euronaut.org
                                    
                                
                            
                    
                
            

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 
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From jonw at psubs.org  Sat Nov 30 11:17:39 2013
From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:17:39 -0500
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <529A0FA3.2080409@psubs.org>


Excellent point and great photo to illustrate it.  I notice that the 
sail on Nutyco's Aquarius is completely vacant aft of the hatch to 
quickly release trapped water and of course doubles to provide easy 
access for entry.  Also the deck/ballast is high (at the hatch 
thru-hull) and very wide providing excellent stability.


On 11/30/2013 5:51 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Alan,
>
> additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
>
> There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
> If you surface fast and with to small opening in the
> bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can
> move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy
> side angles during surfacing until the water rush out.
>
> The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing
> in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water
> but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
>
> But on a military one with there tons of
> water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing
> it can be a problem.
>
> By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
> and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2".
> On dive station or surfaced.
> And great openings in the bottom of the sail.
>
> Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some
> bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
> work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.
>
> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
>
> vbr Carsten

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From jimtoddpsub at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 11:49:33 2013
From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:49:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
In-Reply-To: <5298CB17.20203@psubs.org>
References: <1385606618.75263.YahooMailNeo@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1385694554.73601.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <5298CB17.20203@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <8D0BC0347BCBDF7-7B0-8DE86@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>


If I had never been on sub diving operations I would be working on designing a system for self-propelled surface transit, however since I have been on a few dive ops I have to agree completely with Jon on this one.

If I'm more than about 50 meters from shore I want a competent support boat occupied by an adequate number of smart people.  Since you need a support boat anyway, having it tow the sub to the dive site is quicker, more efficient, less complex, and hopefully more comfortable.  The less time you spend in route to the dive site the better, especially if the sub must be occupied in transit in either direction.  Add hot weather to the mix and it becomes even more significant.

Something that might be helpful would be to design a tow sled (must be a better word) to attach to the front of the sub for better flow characteristics.  It's analogous to a tow dolly for towing a vehicle behind a motor home.  Most of the subs aren't very hydrodynamic, and something that would attach directly to the tow line and cut through the water better with even a little lift would be a great improvement.  Depending on the design it could also facilitate getting into and out of the sub at the dive site.  That by itself would be worth it.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 11:13 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements


          
    
    Except for calm lake conditions I don't think a piggy-back generator    is practical.  On open ocean it is not a simple task to support sub    dive ops.  Take another look at the "psychedelic sub" video from    Islamorada this year and note the bobbing of the sub, the divers,    and the support boat in only 2 foot seas.  Having been in that water    helping weight-balance Snoopy, I can't imagine trying to load/unload    a generator (even a small one) from the top of it.
    
    A small semi-rigid inflatable also won't be practical as surface    support in such conditions.  Doug's 25 foot boston whaler was being    tossed pretty well and drifting heavily.  Who wants to be 5 miles    out on the open ocean in a small cramped inflatable fighting wave,    wind and current?
    
    Jon
    
    
    
      
        
          
            
              
  From: Joe                Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
                To:                Personal Submersibles General Discussion                <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
                Sent:                Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:43 PM
                Subject:                [PSUBS-MAILIST] Surface Transit and power requirements
               
            

              
                
                  
                    
                      
                        
                          

                                                        
                          
I                                have a                                question on my mind that I?d like to                                pose for ideas. It concerns primary                                propulsion and the potential use of an                                electric golf cart motor for long                                distance surface transit say in the                                order of 4 to 5 miles one way.
                          
 
                          
What I am                                thinking is the use of a motor pod ahead                                of a moveable rudder Delta style. If                                one were to use say a 5hp motor where                                2-3 hp is required, wouldn?t the larger                                motor be less taxed and run cooler, turn                                a larger prop,  be more                                reliable long term, etc?
                          
                            
                          
As for power                                drain, what if a portable Honda                                generator could ride temporarily on deck                                behind                                the sail in a purpose built ventilated                                enclosure that is quick release                                removable.                                Could this not be connected to a purpose                                built electrical thru hull feeding the                                main bus?
                          
                            
                          
My goals                                here are simple.
                          
                            
                          
1)      The                                ability to travel to relative distant                                dive sites with relative ease
                          
                            
                          
2)      Reducing a surface                                support                                requirement to a small semi-rigid                                inflatable.
                          
                            
                          
3)      The ability to satisfy                                power drain                                and on site recharge capability without                                rafting at sea.
                          
                            
                          
4)      Eliminating the                                complexity and costs                                associated with inboard diesel                                propulsion.
                          
                            
                          
Ideas /                                thoughts?
                          
                            
                          
Joe
                          
                            
                        
                      
                    
                  
                
              
              
              
            
          
        
      
    
  

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From vbra676539 at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 16:16:06 2013
From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:16:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <529A0FA3.2080409@psubs.org>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de> <529A0FA3.2080409@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <8D0BC2884170F00-1CE4-8E546@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com>

Jon and all,


The A-boat sail was pirated directly from the Pisces mold and serves as a splash guard for emergency egress on the surface. The initial MBT design was for a wraparound set of tanks, which were expanded to the broad topped triple tank setup that is still on board today. Maybe that was an ABS requirement for larger tanks. I don't know. You can't see it, but the primary tanks are U-shaped on the bottom and mostly flat on top. They straddle the hull with a central vent each and stainless steel straps running from one side to the other and out the bottom openings to bolt to the pressure hull.


Perry designed their conning tower as a primary observation point for the pilot and built accordingly. With Aquarius, it was definitely secondary (used mostly around structure and while surfacing or on the surface, and often with creative invective as the ports are so damned small). Remember the old cameras? A compact one was the size of an Aladdin thermos, and the pan and tilt units were big and clunky and expensive. These days, small cameras can do a lot of that from-the-top kind of viewing.


The A-boat sail itself is screwed down to the deck and is completely free flooding, essentially open all the way around to the space under and between the MBTs under the outer skin. The open portion in back of the conning tower provides a route for the aft lift strap, which is why you usually see the lift rig sort of draped out of the sail and onto the deck forward. If you look carefully, you can see the pressure hull and a ring stiffener back there.


A side note is that the same sail drained through rubber scuppers on a Pisces. The idea was that you after you were on the surface, it would drain down enough to allow the crow to open the hatch in an emergency. A lap full of water was probably eminent if you had to do it, but you also probably wouldn't lose the sub.


I ran Leo for a season (Pisces with a big window) but never had the need to see if the scuppers were effective. That's a good thing. Eventually, we replaced the main hatch with a regular conning tower built by Hyco and did away with the sail entirely, which was an infinite improvement for the close observation work in bad conditions we often did in the Gulf of Mexico where we were operating.


These days, they have cameras and light systems that can see more than what the US Navy calls the Mark I Human Eyeball, but back then, I was all there was, and no matter what kind of equipment we had, I always wanted to SEE stuff for myself. Still do, come to that. If I wasn't so stubborn about it, I'd probably be running ROVs, which isn't any fun at all in comparison. Like our Dr. Phil says, ROVs are like phone sex. Okay in a pinch, but nothing like the real thing.


Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:18 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy


          
    

      Excellent point and great photo to illustrate it.  I notice that      the sail on Nutyco's Aquarius is completely vacant aft of the      hatch to quickly release trapped water and of course doubles to      provide easy access for entry.  Also the deck/ballast is high (at      the hatch thru-hull) and very wide providing excellent stability.
      
      
      On 11/30/2013 5:51 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
    
    
                  Hi Alan, 
        
        additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
         
        There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
        If you surface fast and with to small opening in the 
        bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can 
        move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy 
        side angles during surfacing until the water rush out. 
        
        The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing 
        in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water 
        but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
        
        But on a military one with there tons of 
        water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing 
        it can be a problem. 
        
        By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
        and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". 
        On dive station or surfaced. 
        And great openings in the bottom of the sail. 
        
        Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some 
        bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
        work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.
        
        On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a 
        compressed air blow out system can blow away the 
        tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons 
        during blowing the tanks or have a air leak 
        in the in the pipe to the tanks.
        
        vbr Carsten  
    
    
  

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

 

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From freepetesub at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 30 18:48:54 2013
From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 15:48:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BC2884170F00-1CE4-8E546@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1385855334.5478.YahooMailBasic@web140501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

ROVs are like phone sex- that should be on a tee shirt
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 11/30/13, vbra676539 at aol.com <vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
 To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
 Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013, 1:16 PM
 
 Jon and
 all,
 
 
 
 The A-boat sail was pirated directly from the
 Pisces mold and serves as a splash guard for emergency
 egress on the surface. The initial MBT design was for a
 wraparound set of tanks, which were expanded to the broad
 topped triple tank setup that is still on board today. Maybe
 that was an ABS requirement for larger tanks. I don't
 know. You can't see it, but the primary tanks are
 U-shaped on the bottom and mostly flat on top. They straddle
 the hull with a central vent each and stainless steel straps
 running from one side to the other and out the bottom
 openings to bolt to the pressure hull.
 
 
 
 
 
 Perry designed their conning tower as a primary
 observation point for the pilot and built accordingly. With
 Aquarius, it was definitely secondary (used mostly around
 structure and while surfacing or on the surface, and often
 with creative invective as the ports are so damned small).
 Remember the old cameras? A compact one was the size of an
 Aladdin thermos, and the pan and tilt units were big and
 clunky and expensive. These days, small cameras can do a lot
 of that from-the-top kind of viewing.
 
 
 
 
 
 The A-boat sail itself is screwed down to the deck
 and is completely free flooding, essentially open all the
 way around to the space under and between the MBTs under the
 outer skin. The open portion in back of the conning tower
 provides a route for the aft lift strap, which is why you
 usually see the lift rig sort of draped out of the sail and
 onto the deck forward. If you look carefully, you can see
 the pressure hull and a ring stiffener back
 there.
 
 
 
 
 
 A
 side note is that the same sail drained through rubber
 scuppers on a Pisces. The idea was that you after you were
 on the surface, it would drain down enough to allow the crow
 to open the hatch in an emergency. A lap full of water was
 probably eminent if you had to do it, but you also probably
 wouldn't lose the sub.
 
 
 
 
 
 I
 ran Leo for a season (Pisces with a big window) but never
 had the need to see if the scuppers were effective.
 That's a good thing. Eventually, we replaced the main
 hatch with a regular conning tower built by Hyco and did
 away with the sail entirely, which was an infinite
 improvement for the close observation work in bad conditions
 we often did in the Gulf of Mexico where we were
 operating.
 
 
 
 
 
 These days, they have cameras and light systems
 that can see more than what the US Navy calls the Mark I
 Human Eyeball, but back then, I was all there was, and no
 matter what kind of equipment we had, I always wanted to SEE
 stuff for myself. Still do, come to that. If I wasn't so
 stubborn about it, I'd probably be running ROVs, which
 isn't any fun at all in comparison. Like our Dr. Phil
 says, ROVs are like phone sex. Okay in a pinch, but nothing
 like the real thing.
 
 
 
 
 
 Vance
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original
 Message-----
 
 From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
 
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 
 Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:18 am
 
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
     
   
   
 
     
 
 
 
       Excellent point and great photo to illustrate
 it.? I notice that
       the sail on Nutyco's Aquarius is completely vacant
 aft of the
       hatch to quickly release trapped water and of course
 doubles to
       provide easy access for entry.? Also the
 deck/ballast is high (at
       the hatch thru-hull) and very wide providing excellent
 stability.
 
 
       
 
 
       
 
 
       On 11/30/2013 5:51 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de
 wrote:
 
 
     
 
     
       
       
       Hi Alan, 
 
 
         
 
 
         additional the sub can dynamic unstable during
 surfacing.
 
 
         ?
 
 
         There is a lot of water in the free flooding open
 sail.
 
 
         If you surface fast and with to small opening in the
 
 
 
         bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight
 can?
 
 
         move the?CG so high that the sub?tends to
 get heavy 
 
 
         side angles during surfacing until the water rush
 out.?
 
 
         
 
 
         The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during
 surfacing 
 
 
         in the sail?and the MBT sadlle tanks still
 under water 
 
 
         but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
 
 
         
 
 
         But on a military one with there tons of 
 
 
         water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing
 
 
 
         it can be a problem. 
 
 
         
 
 
         By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without
 any problem
 
 
         and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2". 
 
 
         On dive station or surfaced. 
 
 
         And great openings in the bottom of the sail. 
 
 
         
 
 
         Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some 
 
 
         bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the
 seastage
 
 
         work like a air pump and some water enter the
 tanks.
 
 
         
 
 
         On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a 
 
 
         compressed air blow out system can blow away the 
 
 
         tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
 
 
 
         during blowing the tanks or have a air leak 
 
 
         in the in the pipe to the tanks.
 
 
         
 
 
         vbr Carsten? 
 
 
     
     
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
 
 _______________________________________________
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 


From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 20:45:22 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:45:22 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <529A94B2.9050804@archivale.com>

That does have to be considered in design as well as in operation. Some 
sort of fluid interlock between the compressed-air valves and the 
Kingstons, I would think. Or a pilot valve driven by differential 
pressure that opens the Kingstons whenever the overpressure inside the 
MBT reaches a certain level. Can't think of any situation where you 
would want to be blowing WITHOUT having the Kingstons open.

Marc

On 11/30/2013 6:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> Hi Alan,

> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
>
> vbr Carsten
>
>
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:
>
>     Hi everyone,
>     While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>     certification document, I came across this link with a good
>     explanation of stability & buoyancy
>     http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>     There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>     unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>     surface to diving & vice versa.
>     This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>     the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>     submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>     This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>     you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>     I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>     descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>     I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>     be others in the same boat.
>     Regards Alan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
>
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 20:50:35 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:50:35 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <1385813434.13232.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1385813434.13232.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <529A95EB.7040000@archivale.com>

Reserve buoyancy doesn't necessarily resist heave. The greater the rate 
of change of buoyancy with immersion (dependent on waterline area for 
rate and on reserve flotation volume for limit), the stronger the 
coupling to waves. If the boat's natural heave frequency is far 
different from the wave frequency, no problem. If they resonate, you 
could feel like a fishing float in a strong chop!

Marc

On 11/30/2013 8:10 PM, Joe Perkel wrote:

> Incidentally, reserve buoyancy defined as that which is above the
> waterline. Such buoyancy comes into play for walking on deck and more
> importantly to oppose / resist heave.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>;
> *To: * personal_submersibles at psubs.org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
> *Sent: * Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:49:29 AM
>
> BTW Alan, that document you stumbled upon is an excerpt from the NAVPERS
> 16180 Fleet Type Submarine manual from WW2. I have had a copy of this on
> CD for years and this manual while chock full of interesting and
> informative stuff, it has been the single biggest influence on me with
> regards to an upward design spiral.
>
> Stop reading it, it's pure evil! )
>
> Joe
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * MerlinSub at t-online.de <MerlinSub at t-online.de>;
> *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
> *Sent: * Sat, Nov 30, 2013 10:51:00 AM
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
>
> There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
> If you surface fast and with to small opening in the
> bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can
> move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy
> side angles during surfacing until the water rush out.
>
> The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing
> in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water
> but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
>
> But on a military one with there tons of
> water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing
> it can be a problem.
>
> By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
> and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2".
> On dive station or surfaced.
> And great openings in the bottom of the sail.
>
> Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some
> bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
> work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.
>
> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
>
> vbr Carsten
>
>
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:
>
>     Hi everyone,
>     While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>     certification document, I came across this link with a good
>     explanation of stability & buoyancy
>     http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>     There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>     unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>     surface to diving & vice versa.
>     This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>     the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>     submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>     This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>     you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>     I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>     descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>     I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>     be others in the same boat.
>     Regards Alan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
>
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From piolenc at archivale.com  Sat Nov 30 20:56:59 2013
From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:56:59 +0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <8D0BBF439A5A7D8-7B0-8D87B@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1385812169.70842.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <8D0BBF439A5A7D8-7B0-8D87B@webmail-vm028.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <529A976B.2000106@archivale.com>

Modern subs tend to have the trim and compensation tanks inside the 
pressure hull, but the MBTs are fore and aft, outside the pressure hull. 
Sometimes there is also ambient tankage amidships between the more or 
less cylindrical pressure hull and the hydrodynamically-shaped outer casing.

Marc

On 11/30/2013 11:01 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:
> The Navy training film on youtube I linked to earlier is from 1955 and
> not from WW2.  Here's a good, brief article of historical development of
> saddle tanks on military subs.  Since the mid-1950s most military subs
> have had their ballast tanks /inside/ the pressure hull.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_tank_(submarine)
> Surprisingly the ballast tanks on WW1 German subs were low inside the
> pressure hull with flat tops.  This sometimes presented problems when
> the crew needed to blow at depth.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com>
> To: personal_submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 5:50 am
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
>
> BTW Alan, that document you stumbled upon is an excerpt from the NAVPERS
> 16180 Fleet Type Submarine manual from WW2. I have had a copy of this on
> CD for years and this manual while chock full of interesting and
> informative stuff, it has been the single biggest influence on me with
> regards to an upward design spiral.
>
> Stop reading it, it's pure evil! )
>
> Joe
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <http://overview.mail.yahoo.com?.src=iOS>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * MerlinSub at t-online.de <mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de>
> <MerlinSub at t-online.de <mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de>>;
> *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>;
> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
> *Sent: * Sat, Nov 30, 2013 10:51:00 AM
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> additional the sub can dynamic unstable during surfacing.
>
> There is a lot of water in the free flooding open sail.
> If you surface fast and with to small opening in the
> bottom of the free flooding sail the extra weight can
> move the CG so high that the sub tends to get heavy
> side angles during surfacing until the water rush out.
>
> The picture 8382a shows the higher waterlevel during surfacing
> in the sail and the MBT sadlle tanks still under water
> but for this sub the extra weight was not critical.
>
> But on a military one with there tons of
> water in the sail during a fast emergency surfacing
> it can be a problem.
>
> By the way Euronaut has no Kingston valve without any problem
> and a positve GB alltimes greater than 2".
> On dive station or surfaced.
> And great openings in the bottom of the sail.
>
> Boats without Kingston valve tends to lost some
> bouancy during rough sea. The tanks and the seastage
> work like a air pump and some water enter the tanks.
>
> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
>
> vbr Carsten
>
>
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com
> <mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> schrieb:
>
>     Hi everyone,
>     While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>     certification document, I came across this link with a good
>     explanation of stability & buoyancy
>     http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>     There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>     unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>     surface to diving & vice versa.
>     This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>     the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>     submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>     This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>     you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>     I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>     descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>     I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>     be others in the same boat.
>     Regards Alan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
>
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org <http://WWW.Euronaut.org>
> Carsten at euronaut.org <mailto:Carsten at euronaut.org>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  <mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/

From subvet596 at optonline.net  Sat Nov 30 22:28:02 2013
From: subvet596 at optonline.net (subvet596 at optonline.net)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 03:28:02 +0000
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <529A94B2.9050804@archivale.com>
References: <1385772048.41880.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <1Vmi9y-1ninya0@fwd12.t-online.de> <529A94B2.9050804@archivale.com>
Message-ID: <1289713647-1385868484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537896122-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry>

Hi all:

When underway the Kingston valves were usually in the open position. I believe the US Fleet Boats were the last to have them. After WWII they were no longer installed, there was only a man hole size opening at the lowest point of the MBT.

John K.
(203) 414-1000
 
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc de Piolenc <piolenc at archivale.com>
Sender: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:45:22 
To: <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Reply-to: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy

That does have to be considered in design as well as in operation. Some 
sort of fluid interlock between the compressed-air valves and the 
Kingstons, I would think. Or a pilot valve driven by differential 
pressure that opens the Kingstons whenever the overpressure inside the 
MBT reaches a certain level. Can't think of any situation where you 
would want to be blowing WITHOUT having the Kingstons open.

Marc

On 11/30/2013 6:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote:
> Hi Alan,

> On the otherside a boat with Kingston and a
> compressed air blow out system can blow away the
> tanks very fast if you forget to open the Kingstons
> during blowing the tanks or have a air leak
> in the in the pipe to the tanks.
>
> vbr Carsten
>
>
> "Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb:
>
>     Hi everyone,
>     While reading through some background info for the G.L.
>     certification document, I came across this link with a good
>     explanation of stability & buoyancy
>     http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/chap5.htm
>     There is a phenomena described, where submarines can be
>     unstable to the point of turning over during the transition from
>     surface to diving & vice versa.
>     This has to do with the centre of buoyancy moving upward past
>     the centre of gravity. As it approaches the centre of gravity the
>     submarine is at it's most vulnerable point.
>     This would be different for individual designs & a worry if
>     you dropped your emergency drop weight.
>     I had been told by a pilot that he never stuffed around while
>     descending & liked to drop as quick as he could.
>     I didn't have a full understanding of this & thought there may
>     be others in the same boat.
>     Regards Alan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carsten Standfu?
> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
> Heinrich Reck Str.12A
> 18211 Admannshagen
>
> 0172 8464 420
> WWW.Euronaut.org
> Carsten at euronaut.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>

-- 
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles


From phil at philnuytten.com  Mon Nov 25 01:49:04 2013
From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:49:04 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <CAOGJjnJ2QGZT5dORqozaGhFi8SXvQA61gqGKRJsaW-Fc088esA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1VnEoH-08ZGUK0@fwd21.t-online.de>
 <1385941572.69859.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOGJjnJ2QGZT5dORqozaGhFi8SXvQA61gqGKRJsaW-Fc088esA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <244C36DFB5004109B9F537957B97C240@PhillPC>

Good one, guys! I wonder how many times I?ve used that simile in pro manned-vehicle lectures in various parts of the world ? a lot , for sure. . .and it never fails to get a laugh and then a nod of understanding.
Phil

From: Douglas Suhr 
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 4:16 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy

Haha, very nice Jon! We need to make sure Phil sees that one. ~ Douglas S. 



On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:

        Nice work!

        I wonder now if there was any correlation between marital status and nose art in WWII? :) 


        Joe

        Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: MerlinSub at t-online.de <MerlinSub at t-online.de>; 

  To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; 
  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stability & Buoyancy 

  Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2013 9:43:00 PM 


        Need one as metal plate for my Galley.. 


        "Jon Wallace" <jonw at psubs.org> schrieb:
        > PC2014 tee-shirt logo??? (see attachment)
        > 
        > On 12/1/2013 3:43 AM, brian wrote:
        > > Notify the printer forthwith !

        > >
        > 
        > 
         

        -- 

        Carsten Standfu?
        Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik
        Heinrich Reck Str.12A
        18211 Admannshagen

        0172 8464 420
        WWW.Euronaut.org
        Carsten at euronaut.org 


  _______________________________________________
  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles





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From phil at philnuytten.com  Thu Nov 28 11:25:26 2013
From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 08:25:26 -0800
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy
In-Reply-To: <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org>
References: <1386234505.55213.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <52A09CD9.7050507@psubs.org>
Message-ID: <97A26885E7B64DCB8E8A5D2CE037CE1A@PhillPC>

The minimum hatch to waterline measure applies to those submersibles ?intended to be entered while afloat? - 
Phil

From: Jon Wallace 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:33 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy


I think the first sentence is key, "Submersibles will be assigned Class only after it has been demonstrated that their buoyancy and their static and dynamic stability in in tact condition is adequate FOR THE SERVICE INTENDED".  Some of the lack of specificity is because they can't conceive of every possible application.  They do however have quite a few specifics as you outlined.  Some of the testing won't apply (ie fuel load) and it's possible that a narrow scope of service might lower number of tests required.


On 12/5/2013 4:08 AM, Alan James wrote:


  I'm afraid there is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics.
  There are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard defined
  in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class
  notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the 
  operation area, the distance between the waterline in fully surfaced condition
  and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open
  for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L.
     ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30"
  whereas G.L. states; For surfaced; a minimum distance between metacentric height & center of gravity of 10cm. (4") And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy & center of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be above B. (including after dropping the drop weight)
  In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to
  be included.  This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling
  angles. So looks like 120 calculations. Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered.
  There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure
  hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. 
  When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without
  water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees.
  There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation
  of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based.
  Alan












   

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