[PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Tue Nov 26 14:26:00 EST 2013

Sometimes they not accept the material cerificates of the other agencies. 

For example the GL accept stamps on steel from LRS, DNV or ABS.
But LRS not accept the certificates of for example GL or others.
The like to make there own - maybe mostly to make more profit. 

Also some of them are pretty slow. Fire and Saftey plans and issues 
for example goes from the client to the German LRS office, 
from there to the London office and than later back. 
Can take 6 month or longer for one drawing. 
On small boat with building times of less than 6 months we 
sometimes are much quicker in the water than the class approve the drawings. 

This is a big issue with the class - if you are build quicker than they can red mark the drawings 
 - you run maybe in big troubles. Special if you have allready ordered the shell.. 

But most issue is the price. If you like to go with a single build small Psubs and a bigger classification - just double all figures. 

We generate 3-4 years ago a quicker and much cheaper class for small subs - but the sericve is offered today only in Europe.  

In general there are no big difference in the agencies - more importnat is which personal inspector you get..  

Brian : 
New matierial has to be allways to be testet, new idears has to confirmed as a "equal" solution. 
New construction has to be calculate. 

I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as equal solution. 

all the best Carsten 

"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> schrieb: 
Thanks Phil,
that's a good introduction to this topic.
>From what I've read so far, supplying the documentation they require
seems harder than building the submarine.
Alan

From: Phil Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

All:
Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors  Lloyds Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping,  Det Norske Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of these classifying agencies use as their reference 
Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy  section 8
, commonly referred to as PVHO8. Several of these agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial Plan Approval and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the office who will make the final decision relative to your subs classification  -relative to where their local representatives offices are located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others witnessing and certs. 
Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class  particularly if you are only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread our costs over a number of subs by getting type approval so much of the initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you dont change the design.
Phil

From: Alan James 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

Hi Jon,
I have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,
other than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets elsewhere.
They could be very close, I don't know.
I intend to read through ABS as well but for some reason I've started on G.L..

I doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many Psubbers 
wanting to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there may
be some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.
I could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L., &
able to comment on discrepancies. 
I think Jim & David were interested in following classification guidelines.
How far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we went
over ABS instead???
Regards Alan

From: Jon Wallace <jonw at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification

I don't have any issues with it as long as the discussion remains objective.  I have been reminded that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up over the years and don't want to jeopardize.  However, we would certainly entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others that might want a working relationship with PSUBS.  I would also note that we do have links to GL on our website right now at WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG (hopefully still current).

I've never personally looked at certification as "us vs them".  Kittredge used both ABS and Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe.  In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon once.  I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than one set of rules being better than another.

If you think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public list.

Jon

On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:

Hi,
I've just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification
of manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.
http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/ GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf

Is anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?
There are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who
may want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my understanding
is not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on
would be interesting to know.
I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some areas.

Jon if you don't like this idea email me
Alan

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Carsten Standfuß
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