[PSUBS-MAILIST] Compensation with mineral oil or Marvel
JimToddPsub at aol.com
JimToddPsub at aol.com
Fri Sep 6 08:57:10 EDT 2013
Scott,
Marvel Mystery oil is 74% mineral oil, 25% stoddard solvent, and 1%lard.
All the mineral oil I've found in drugstores contains fragrance. If you
want pure mineral oil you can buy it by the gallon for about $15 at farm
supply or veterinary supply stores.
Alec has the most simple system I've seen for oil compensated motors.
When I saw it I discarded all my other designs The last I heard he was using
MMO because of its lower viscosity instead of mineral oil. I question how
long a rubber bladder will hold up with pure mineral oil.
Jim
In a message dated 9/6/2013 7:03:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes:
I used WD-40 for a couple of years and although it seemed to do the job it
eventually caused the seals and soft tubes to get brittle.
Greg
From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
Scott,
Sorry you have these problems with conference looming.
I did tests on WD40 a while back & found it dissolved some plastics. It
was used in some
Sub motors. And even if it mightn't dissolve plastics relatively quickly,
these oils / spirits could do in time.
The professional compensating units used on ROVs are a spring loaded
cylinder
that pressurise the oil to about 5 psi, however the pressure drops as the
spring
expands. If you Google ROV compensating unit you may find some. I've seen
them for sale
But they cost an arm & a leg.
Carsten & Emile are now using a low viscosity high priced silicone oil.
Not sure what they are using but I believe you can get silicone oil at a
viscosity similar to water.
I air compensate my motors, but have been told oil compensating is safer
because
It is more forgiving if water gets inside the motor, also there is the
danger of stuffing your motors
& losing your ballast air if there is an air leak.
Sorry, this is a bit of a rave, hope it is helpful.
Regards Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 6/09/2013, at 2:27 AM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_
(mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote:
So first failed test. I filled my oil compensating bladder and used marvel
mystery oil. It ate away at the rubber of the bladder. I am useing rubber
for landscapping pond liners. I think marvel mystery oil is a solvent.
Should I use mineral oil or something?
Thanks,
Scott Waters
Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone
"Dan H." <_jumachine at comcast.net_ (mailto:jumachine at comcast.net) > wrote:
Scott
In your lathe,, turn and face a piece of stock about 1/2 inch long and a
little under the small diameter of your lens. (a flat disk) Flip it around
and drill a center hole in it with a center drill as you would in the end of
a long shaft you want to turn in the lathe. (A hole to accept the lathe
center) Don't go all the way through. Take it out and cover the faced end
with strips of double sided tape.
Mount another chunk of round stock, just a little smaller in diameter then
the larger diameter of the viewport in the chuck of your lathe. Face it
true and cover it's face with double sided tape also.
Center up and stick on your lens blank then take the smaller piece you
already prepared, hold it up against the tail stock center and crank it up
against the other side of the lens blank.
With the lens taped to the drive plate and held in place with the force of
the tail stock, you should be able to machine the taper you need. Of
course, take light cuts and keep a close eye on it.
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: _swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com)
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
Vance,
I am in the process of installing veiwports. How do you chuck up the
conical viewport in the lathe to make a mating surface for the "O" ring? Can't
seem to figure out how to make it work on the lathe and have access to the
edge that I need to cut.
Thanks,
Scott Waters
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
From: _vbra676539 at aol.com_ (mailto:vbra676539 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, June 12, 2013 4:01 pm
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
I haven't tried the Nekton style on my K-frames, but will. Gamma uses a
cork/neoprene blended gasket material, glued to the frame with aircraft grade
gasket cement, but dry on assembly between the gasket and acrylic. If the
compression is sufficient on the K-style, it should work there, as well.
I'm not a big fan of gaskets or flat disc viewports in any case, but
12,000+ dives for the Nektons is a pretty good statement. They work. Do not use
straight neoprene gaskets, and I suspect that unglued urethane gaskets fall
into the same category. They are too soft and will extrude to the low
pressure side.
Side note: I HATE using silicone sealant in this kind of application. It
works fine, but makes maintenance impossible. If you're going to do it, then
just go ahead and build some extra viewports. You'll need them for
replacements the next time you paint.
To complete Dan's (hey, Dan, good to hear from you again) conical
viewport--machine a matching notch in the viewport frame, and as Dan describes,
take off the corner of the port so that your o-ring sits in a square (in
cross section) groove. Compression from your retaining ring will complete the
form and it will not leak (ever). No sealant or glue is required for this
design.
A well painted frame greased with oxygen compatible grease is what you
want. The o-ring serves to keep the deep blue sea out on or near the surface,
but the acrylic self-seals against the mating surface under pressure.
As to building the frustrum conical seats, Dan is also right. You can't
get there from here without machining after welding. Perry build their
conning towers as bolt on units, and that was the primary reason. A conning tower
can be handled on regular floor sized machine tools. An entire submarine
normally can not.
If I was building another K, it would have some very-Perryesque
modifications--a bolt on conning tower with six ports in the cylinder being one of
them.
Vance
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan H. <_jumachine at comcast.net_ (mailto:jumachine at comcast.net) >
To: personal_submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 5:56 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
I'd prefer to have all conical viewports and I don't think you can
properly gasket a conical viewport. A rubber O-ring that seals at the edge where
the lens meets the seat is as good as it gets on a conical viewport. The
shape of the cone and the pressure on the big side of the cone ensure you'll
never have a gap to extrude the O-ring. If it wasn't so difficult to
machine the viewport seats conical after they are welded, I would have used
all conical lenses and O-ring seals. It's impossible to hold the seat true
if you machine a cone first then weld.
Gaskets on the flat viewports may be good too. If it works for Vance then
it should work for you.
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: _hank pronk_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca)
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
Dan,
are you against gaskets like Vance has on the Necton.
Hank
From: Dan H. <_jumachine at comcast.net_ (mailto:jumachine at comcast.net) >
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 3:04:27 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
I used sealant in the rest of the viewports.
I was concerned that the coefficient of expansion would be to great on the
15 inch viewport so that in really cold water there may be to big of a gap
and possibly extrude the O-ring in along side the lens. I know it could
be a problem with the sealant also but I simply went with seemed to work for
others on the all the rest of my viewports.... Glue them in with
sealant!!!
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: _swaters_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com)
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
Dan,
Did you put o-rings around all your view ports or did you seal the 8 inch
veiw ports with sealant?
Thanks,
Scott Waters
Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone
"Dan H." <_jumachine at comcast.net_ (mailto:jumachine at comcast.net) > wrote:
I don't know. There isn't a lot of room for sealant in a conical
viewport.
I like the fact that if I were to be incapacitated in the sub, all someone
would have to do to get access to me is remove the six screws on the lens
holder and easily pop the lens out to get access to the interior of the sub
when it's not glued in.
My hatch latches from inside only, as the K-350 plans show.
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: _swaters_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com)
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
What about 3M marine poly sealant #4000? Would that work?
Thanks,
Scott Waters
Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone
"Dan H." <_jumachine at comcast.net_ (mailto:jumachine at comcast.net) > wrote:
Machine the sharp edge off the top side of the viewport lens so it creates
a triangular cross section groove when installed in the conical seat and
install an O-ring before bolting down the lens retaining ring.
Do a 10 or 20 time size drawing of the cross section groove area with any
standard cross section O-ring of your choice. Draw in the lens edge to
create a situation where you have about .020 inch squeeze on all three sides
of the triangular gland. (seat, lens retainer and lens edge when the sharp
part is machined off) That's how to determine how much to machine the
lens edge. Get the squeeze to .020 inch per side on the O-ring. Try fan
O-ring of .250 cross section or maybe a little less and see what you think.
When you get the O-ring cross section and groove pinned down, pick an O-ring
of a diameter that will fit. No sealant necessary.
Also you should grease the O-ring and conical seat before instillation.
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: _Jon Wallace_ (mailto:jonw at psubs.org)
To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_
(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 blue print problems
It was sikaflex all the way around on the 600. The problem with it is
that you really have to bang on the viewports to get them out and at least
the way I removed them, I would only put back new ones.
On 6/11/2013 11:16 PM, swaters wrote:
Why did Kitteregde use a gasket and a "O" ring on the big veiwport and not
on the small veiwports. Hank, why did useing the silicone suck? Was it
hard to apply or did it not hold up well?
Thanks,
Scott Waters
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