From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 1 08:39:13 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396355953.40636.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, A gantry is super sweet of coarse, but a launch cart is a very cheap alternative.? I load and unload my sub in minutes.? It saves sinking your trailer, it also lets you launch in water 14in shallower.?? All you need is a couple of old trailer axels and some 3in channel.? You could cut up that old trailer you had.? You will need a winch on the trailer but you don't need much because you should have a block to slow it down anyways.? Just a thought. Hank On Monday, March 31, 2014 5:41:23 PM, swaters wrote: Sounds good. I will see if I can get it. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, There are many options, I go be experience?because I am not an engineer. ? You are best to get the info from an engineer or copy one that is rated.? The gantry in Texas is a bargain, it will cost you that in material and time. Hank On Monday, March 31, 2014 4:36:26 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Hank, Is there different sizes of I beams? When I called?the steal place they asked me what is the weight per foot? Jim, I contacted the that is selling the lifts from Texas. That might just work better. Thanks, Scott Waters? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift >From: hank pronk >Date: Mon, March 31, 2014 1:31 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Scott, >You should not make the same mistake I made, 8 feet is not enough.? Go with at least 9 feet inside.? >I use a 8,000lb warren winch with a single pully block and that is perfect.? I have to build a new gantry because I built mine with stuff I had instead of buying proper material.? I am building?A frames with 2in square 1/4 wall.? Then a 10in I beam across the top with a 10 foot span. >Hank >On Monday, March 31, 2014 2:09:55 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: > >Hey guys, > >I am wanting to build a gantry lift in my shop so I can put my sub on the trailer and take it back off the trailer without having to pay to rent a telehandler. It would need to hold the sub (4500 lbs) plus a little extra. I was thinking of building it out of I beams. I know nothing about structural design with I beams but I believe it should be pretty easy. The gantry lift would be 9' tall and 8' wide. What size I beams should I use? > >Also what is the best kind of winch or block and tackle device to use that is inexpensive? > >Thanks for the help, >Scott Waters >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 1 09:04:34 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 08:04:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <2ehpqom5hdqjr3n688f06mh3.1396356695048@email.android.com> Hank, I built a trailer for my sub and it is 19" off of the ground. I don't have any good way to put it on and off the trailer unless I put it in the water or go rent a 5000 lb telehandler which is a pain (even though I own several of them in our stores). I figured I could buy/make a gantry lift and could take my sub off the trailer and use my trailer for other things. Last time I loaded my sub I used a tilt trailer and a 10,000 lb come along. When I was done I felt like I had ran a marathon. Haha. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Scott, A gantry is super sweet of coarse, but a launch cart is a very cheap alternative.? I load and unload my sub in minutes.? It saves sinking your trailer, it also lets you launch in water 14in shallower.?? All you need is a couple of old trailer axels and some 3in channel.? You could cut up that old trailer you had.? You will need a winch on the trailer but you don't need much because you should have a block to slow it down anyways.? Just a thought. Hank On Monday, March 31, 2014 5:41:23 PM, swaters wrote: Sounds good. I will see if I can get it. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, There are many options, I go be experience?because I am not an engineer. ? You are best to get the info from an engineer or copy one that is rated.? The gantry in Texas is a bargain, it will cost you that in material and time. Hank On Monday, March 31, 2014 4:36:26 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Hank, Is there different sizes of I beams? When I called?the steal place they asked me what is the weight per foot? ? Jim, I contacted the that is selling the lifts from Texas. That might just work better. ? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift From: hank pronk Date: Mon, March 31, 2014 1:31 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, You should not make the same mistake I made, 8 feet is not enough.? Go with at least 9 feet inside.? I use a 8,000lb warren winch with a single pully block and that is perfect.? I have to build a new gantry because I built mine with stuff I had instead of buying proper material.? I am building?A frames with 2in square 1/4 wall.? Then a 10in I beam across the top with a 10 foot span. Hank On Monday, March 31, 2014 2:09:55 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Hey guys, ? I am wanting to build a gantry lift in my shop so I can put my sub on the trailer and take it back off the trailer without having to pay to rent a telehandler. It would need to hold the sub (4500 lbs) plus a little extra. I was thinking of building it out of I beams. I know nothing about structural design with I beams but I believe it should be pretty easy. The gantry lift would be 9' tall and 8' wide. What size I beams should I use? ? Also what is the best kind of winch or block and tackle device to use that is inexpensive? ? Thanks for the help, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Apr 1 10:49:55 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:49:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 11:23:35 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:23:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't go well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Apr 1 12:01:28 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:01:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: polarize-006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 51184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Apr 1 12:09:52 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:09:52 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> References: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Stanley Plastics charged me ?120 (about $200) per 8" viewport made to PVHO. I didnt think that was too bad for peace of mind. Kind Regards James On 1 April 2014 17:01, Brian Cox wrote: > Hi Doug, > I think I'm going to see what finished windows would > cost me from Hydrospace. The chamber for the annealing would need to be > completely re-thought out. I was thinking that maybe an enclosed liquid, > like antifreeze, could be used to circulate through a special chamber that > would be surrounded with the liquid. That way you could really get a > handle on the exact temperature of a circulating liquid. But still you have > to change the temp, maybe a mixing valve. But by the time I got through > with that I could probably buy a number of viewports ! > > Attached is a shot of the stresses I induced with my bad annealing attempt > > Brian > > > > > > > > > My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't > go well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to > try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to > your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said > than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 12:38:01 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:38:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> References: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, have you given Greg Cottrell a call? He has an annealing oven and can also make viewports. I'll email his contact info offline. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > Hi Doug, > I think I'm going to see what finished windows would > cost me from Hydrospace. The chamber for the annealing would need to be > completely re-thought out. I was thinking that maybe an enclosed liquid, > like antifreeze, could be used to circulate through a special chamber that > would be surrounded with the liquid. That way you could really get a > handle on the exact temperature of a circulating liquid. But still you have > to change the temp, maybe a mixing valve. But by the time I got through > with that I could probably buy a number of viewports ! > > Attached is a shot of the stresses I induced with my bad annealing attempt > > Brian > > > > > > > > > My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't go > well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to > try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to > your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said > than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Apr 1 12:49:11 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:49:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140401094911.BE884D28@m0048137.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 14:02:51 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 07:02:51 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <5096FAC5-79EC-4666-A463-7717C277031A@yahoo.com> Brian, I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to your small oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature fluctuations would be less dramatic. Possibly make it out of insulation batts & aluminium foil. you could still use the control unit I suggested. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Brian Cox > Verzonden: maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > Aan: PSubs > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 1 14:53:09 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:53:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <20140401115309.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fef65e3d8f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 1 18:28:17 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: <20140401115309.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fef65e3d8f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140401115309.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fef65e3d8f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1396391297.91660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Good to hear, that is a deal! Hank On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 12:53:32 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? Thanks, Scott Waters? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Apr 1 19:50:24 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:50:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140401165024.DB96998E@m0048136.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 21:03:02 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401165024.DB96998E@m0048136.ppops.net> References: <20140401165024.DB96998E@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1396400582.40820.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Brian, don't know about that idea, sounds like a lot of work. I managed to form some 1&1/2" thick acrylic in a kitchen oven by cutting a hole between the upper oven & lower oven & heating the upper oven with the lower (warmer draw) element. I can't remember whether I had the fan on or not, but I could manually raise the temperature by 1degree Celcius every 10 minutes & drop it by 1 degree every 15 minutes. The oven thermostats are useless & the actual temperature fluctuates wildly from what? you set it at on the dial. The lower element was so slow at heating the upper oven through the small hole, that it made it easy?to control. I had a probe type thermometer like you had. If you had a low powered element in a big oven with a fan circulating the air, you should get there, as long as the element was powerful enough to get you up to your top temperature. As mentioned before the kiln controller is designed for exactly what you are doing & it has? a fine adjustment range. On the safe side, if you aren't confident about the process I'd follow what others had suggested? & get them done professionally.? I remember someone saying that Captain Kitrege tested 2 identical domes, one annealed & the other not. The annealed dome went to 800 ft & the other broke at 50 ft. ( I think that's right) Alan ________________________________ From: Brian Cox To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Alan, ?????????? I was thinking get a small electric water heater ( 5 gal) fill it with glycol and circulate it?though a large open reservoir that has an opening at the top.? Make a?special?sealed container that the viewport could be housed in and dump it into the pot.? Then regulate the temperature of the water/glycol fluid using a cooling?radiator and flow valves to channel more or less water through the cooling fan.? Have everything on variable solenoid valves.??Hook it up to your computer and control?everything from there. ? Brian??? --- alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com wrote: From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 07:02:51 +1300 Brian, I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to your small oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature fluctuations would be less dramatic. ?Possibly make it out of insulation batts & aluminium foil. you could still use the control unit I suggested.? Alan Sent from my iPad On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" wrote: Epic Fail !??? my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well.?? The temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate.? The mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the temperature change uncontrollable.?? And the heat was not even though out the oven as well. >? >Brian > >--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > >Brian, >I say when in doubt, test.? If your not building a test chamber , you can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. >Hank > > > >On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > >Hank, >????????? I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that.? I'm just doing one test piece to start off with.? I was also using the same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to?heat the welding rod?to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days).? I was able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250.? >? >Brian?? > >--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > >Brian, >Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't have a copy.? There is some pretty important stuff in there. >Hank > > > >On , hank pronk wrote: > >Brian, >How thick is your acrylic?? should take more than a night? >Hank > > > >On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > >Yes, I have the annealing schedules.? I have an electric oven and two digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself .? I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it should.? So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up.? It'll be a long night. >? >Brian > >--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > >Brian, >Are you going to anneal your windows yourself??? >Hank? > > > >On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox wrote: > >Used my polarized lenses on the?newly cut piece and it appears clouded throughout the whole piece.? Where as another piece I have, you can clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled.? >? >Brian >? > >--- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > >From: "Emile van Essen" >To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > >As far as I know it is only cast. >? >Regards, Emile >? >Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Brian Cox >Verzonden: maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 >Aan: PSubs >Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >? >I'm planning on annealing my viewports,? does anyone know if the acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? >? >Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Apr 1 21:40:34 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 09:40:34 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <5096FAC5-79EC-4666-A463-7717C277031A@yahoo.com> References: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> <5096FAC5-79EC-4666-A463-7717C277031A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <533B6A92.2020004@archivale.com> Adding thermal mass inside an oven actually destabilizes closed loop control, as you have just learned. With open loop control it can help a bit by ironing out fluctuations. Best, Marc On 4/2/2014 2:02 AM, Alan wrote: > Brian, > I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to your > small > oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature fluctuations > would be less dramatic. Possibly make it out of insulation batts & > aluminium foil. > you could still use the control unit I suggested. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" > wrote: > >> Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The >> temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The >> mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so >> the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor >> saw the temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even >> though out the oven as well. >> Brian >> >> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk > > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) >> >> Brian, >> I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you >> can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox >> > wrote: >> Hank, >> I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, >> they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then >> there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes out >> to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. >> I'm just doing one test piece to start off with. I was also using the >> same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the >> welding rod to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been >> sitting out for a few days). I was able to keep the temperature >> fairly even for the welding rod at 250. >> Brian >> >> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk > > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) >> >> Brian, >> Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you >> don't have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. >> Hank >> >> >> On , hank pronk > > wrote: >> Brian, >> How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox >> > wrote: >> Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two >> digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and >> the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself >> . I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register >> until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go >> higher than it should. So between the two readouts I can heat it >> gradually up. It'll be a long night. >> Brian >> >> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk > > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) >> >> Brian, >> Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox >> > wrote: >> Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded >> throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can >> clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled. >> Brian >> >> --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: >> >> From: "Emile van Essen" > >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 >> >> As far as I know it is only cast. >> Regards, Emile >> *Van:*Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox >> *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 >> *Aan:* PSubs >> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >> I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the >> acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? >> Brian _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From cast55 at telus.net Tue Apr 1 21:57:59 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:57:59 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <533B6A92.2020004@archivale.com> References: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> <5096FAC5-79EC-4666-A463-7717C277031A@yahoo.com> <533B6A92.2020004@archivale.com> Message-ID: To be clear on terminology, additional thermal mass does not decrease stability, but rather increases the time constant of the system response. Controllers simply need to be tuned in accordance with the system characteristics, and there are control algorithms which can account for the long delays typical of thermal control loops. An unstable, or underdamped system with oscillation, is more typical of a controller with too much gain, or a highly non-linear control element which is not accurately modeled in the control algorithm. As far as the oven goes, a simple solution might be to add a convection fan to even out the oven air temperature, and measure the surface temperature of the acrylic for the control variable as opposed to the oven air temperature. Sean On April 1, 2014 7:40:34 PM MDT, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >Adding thermal mass inside an oven actually destabilizes closed loop >control, as you have just learned. > >With open loop control it can help a bit by ironing out fluctuations. > >Best, >Marc > >On 4/2/2014 2:02 AM, Alan wrote: >> Brian, >> I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to >your >> small >> oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature >fluctuations >> would be less dramatic. Possibly make it out of insulation batts & >> aluminium foil. >> you could still use the control unit I suggested. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" > > wrote: >> >>> Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. >The >>> temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The >>> mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it >so >>> the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer >sensor >>> saw the temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not >even >>> though out the oven as well. >>> Brian >>> >>> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca >wrote: >>> >>> From: hank pronk >> > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>> Brian, >>> I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , >you >>> can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for >you. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox >>> > >wrote: >>> Hank, >>> I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, >>> they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then >>> there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes >out >>> to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half >that. >>> I'm just doing one test piece to start off with. I was also using >the >>> same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat >the >>> welding rod to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been >>> sitting out for a few days). I was able to keep the temperature >>> fairly even for the welding rod at 250. >>> Brian >>> >>> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca >wrote: >>> >>> From: hank pronk >> > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>> Brian, >>> Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you >>> don't have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On , hank pronk >> > wrote: >>> Brian, >>> How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox >>> > >wrote: >>> Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and >two >>> digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and >>> the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature >itself >>> . I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register >>> until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go >>> higher than it should. So between the two readouts I can heat it >>> gradually up. It'll be a long night. >>> Brian >>> >>> --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca >wrote: >>> >>> From: hank pronk >> > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>> Brian, >>> Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox >>> > >wrote: >>> Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears >clouded >>> throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can >>> clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled. >>> Brian >>> >>> --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: >>> >>> From: "Emile van Essen" > >>> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 >>> >>> As far as I know it is only cast. >>> Regards, Emile >>> *Van:*Personal_Submersibles >>> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox >>> *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 >>> *Aan:* PSubs >>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>> I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the >>> acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? >>> Brian _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Apr 1 22:06:34 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 10:06:34 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: References: <20140401074955.BE85DF09@m0005296.ppops.net> <5096FAC5-79EC-4666-A463-7717C277031A@yahoo.com> <533B6A92.2020004@archivale.com> Message-ID: <533B70AA.1020001@archivale.com> On 4/2/2014 9:57 AM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > To be clear on terminology, additional thermal mass does not decrease > stability, but rather increases the time constant of the system > response. Same thing, no? Adding lag to the "plant" - the thing being controlled - decreases the stability of the system as a whole. This is reflected in the need to use low gains in the feedback loop to prevent oscillation. > Controllers simply need to be tuned in accordance with the > system characteristics, and there are control algorithms which can > account for the long delays typical of thermal control loops. It's more than just a matter of tuning. It is possible to build controllers that contain an internal mathematical model of the plant, which allows them to anticipate plant response. But now we're talking about "observers" and other exotica which you won't find inside your typical thermostat. Marc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Apr 1 22:08:36 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:08:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140401190836.BE8EF311@m0005311.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 2 08:30:35 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401190836.BE8EF311@m0005311.ppops.net> References: <20140401190836.BE8EF311@m0005311.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1396441835.43027.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> At one time I was going to go down this road, I researched the hell out of it.? I recall that a circulation fan with a given air speed was absolutely essential.? I would research the ovens that the pro's use.? Hank On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:09:05 PM, Brian Cox wrote: Well at least I have a piece of acrylic that can serve as a temperature block now ! --- cast55 at telus.net wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:57:59 -0600 To be clear on terminology, additional thermal mass does not decrease stability, but rather increases the time constant of the system response. Controllers simply need to be tuned in accordance with the system characteristics, and there are control algorithms which can account for the long delays typical of thermal control loops. An unstable, or underdamped system with oscillation, is more typical of a controller with too much gain, or a highly non-linear control element which is not accurately modeled in the control algorithm. As far as the oven goes, a simple solution might be to add a convection fan to even out the oven air temperature, and measure the surface temperature of the acrylic for the control variable as opposed to the oven air temperature. Sean On April 1, 2014 7:40:34 PM MDT, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Adding thermal mass inside an oven actually destabilizes closed loop >control, as you have just learned. > >With open loop control it can help a bit by ironing out fluctuations. > >Best, >Marc > >On 4/2/2014 2:02 AM, Alan wrote: > >Brian, >>I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to your >>small >>oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature fluctuations >>would be less dramatic. Possibly make it out of insulation batts & >>aluminium foil. >>you could still use the control unit I suggested. >>Alan >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" >> wrote: >> >> >>Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The >>>temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The >>>mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so >>>the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor >>>saw the temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even >>>though out the oven as well. >>>Brian >>> >>>--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>> >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>>Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>>Brian, >>>I say when in doubt, test. If your! not building a test chamber , you >>>can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>>On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox >>>> wrote: >>>Hank, >>>I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, >>>they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then >>>there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes out >>>to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. >>>I'm just doing one test piece to start off with. I was also using the >>>same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the >>>welding rod to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been >>>sitting out for a few days). I was able to keep the temperature >>>fairly even for the welding rod at 250. >>>Brian >>> >>>--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>> >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>>Brian, >>>Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you >>>don't have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>>On , hank pronk >>> wrote: >>>Brian, >>>How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>>On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox >>>> wrote: >>>Yes, I have the annealing schedules.! I have an electric oven and two >>>digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and >>>the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself >>>. I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register >>>until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go >>>higher than it should. So between the two readouts I can heat it >>>gradually up. It'll be a long night. >>>Brian >>> >>>--- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>> >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>>Brian, >>>Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? >>>Hank >>> >>> On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox >>>> wrote: >>>Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded >>>throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can >>>clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled. >>>Brian >>> >>>--- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: >>> >>>From: "Emile van Essen" > >>>To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >>>> >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 >>> >>>As far as I know it is only cast. >>>Regards, Emile >>>*Van:*Personal_Submersibles >>>[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox >>>*Verzonden:* maandag! 24 maart 2014 20:37 >>>*Aan:* PSubs >>>*Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic >>>I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the >>>acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? >>>Brian ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity._______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Wed Apr 2 09:01:25 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:01:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: <20140401115309.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fef65e3d8f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140401115309.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fef65e3d8f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: > I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a > trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there > is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion > what to get and where to get it? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 2 09:40:02 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 08:40:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <3olkn5ay70myi2et66ieysmv.1396445956680@email.android.com> Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneSteve McQueen wrote:Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. ?I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Wed Apr 2 09:55:28 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:55:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic References: <20140401190836.BE8EF311@m0005311.ppops.net> <1396441835.43027.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004801cf4e7b$34e1a220$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> I shrank, then later annealed mine in an industrial oven at a neighboring shop. It had a pretty good digital thermostat and circulating air. It took quite a long time, with many trips next door to keep bringing down the temp, but I had no problem. I don't know what the pros do, but I placed my acrylic on glass sheets that I lightly dusted with talcum powder to prevent sticking. There were a few dots of talc that were bumped up and they left tiny impressions. That leads me to believe that if I just tried doing it without the flat glass, my viewports wouldn't be flat when I was finished. I think if I placed them directly on the rack, they would have had stripes imbedded in them. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic At one time I was going to go down this road, I researched the hell out of it. I recall that a circulation fan with a given air speed was absolutely essential. I would research the ovens that the pro's use. Hank On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:09:05 PM, Brian Cox wrote: Well at least I have a piece of acrylic that can serve as a temperature block now ! --- cast55 at telus.net wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:57:59 -0600 To be clear on terminology, additional thermal mass does not decrease stability, but rather increases the time constant of the system response. Controllers simply need to be tuned in accordance with the system characteristics, and there are control algorithms which can account for the long delays typical of thermal control loops. An unstable, or underdamped system with oscillation, is more typical of a controller with too much gain, or a highly non-linear control element which is not accurately modeled in the control algorithm. As far as the oven goes, a simple solution might be to add a convection fan to even out the oven air temperature, and measure the surface temperature of the acrylic for the control variable as opposed to the oven air temperature. Sean On April 1, 2014 7:40:34 PM MDT, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Adding thermal mass inside an oven actually destabilizes closed loop control, as you have just learned.With open loop control it can help a bit by ironing out fluctuations.Best,MarcOn 4/2/2014 2:02 AM, Alan wrote: Brian, I was going to suggest earlier that you build a larger oven next to your small oven & use the small oven to heat it. That way the temperature fluctuations would be less dramatic. Possibly make it out of insulation batts & aluminium foil. you could still use the control unit I suggested. Alan Sent from my iPad On 2/04/2014, at 3:49 am, "Brian Cox" > wrote: Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out the oven as well. Brian --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Brian, I say when in doubt, test. If your! not building a test chamber , you can make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. Hank On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox > wrote: Hank, I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. Brian --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Brian, Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. Hank On , hank pronk > wrote: Brian, How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? Hank On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox > wrote: Yes, I have the annealing schedules.! I have an electric oven and two digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be a long night. Brian --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Brian, Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? Hank On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox > wrote: Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly see a stress area around where it has been drilled. Brian --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 As far as I know it is only cast. Regards, Emile *Van:*Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox *Verzonden:* maandag! 24 maart 2014 20:37 *Aan:* PSubs *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic from the factory is pre-shrunk ? Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity._______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:01:51 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:01:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: <3olkn5ay70myi2et66ieysmv.1396445956680@email.android.com> References: <3olkn5ay70myi2et66ieysmv.1396445956680@email.android.com> Message-ID: The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: > Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Steve McQueen wrote: > Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The > trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose > ratings over what I expected. > > I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you > might add that to your considerations. > > Steve > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: > >> I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a >> trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there >> is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion >> what to get and where to get it? >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 2 11:11:27 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <75ed3.d634fac.406d829f@aol.com> Scott, For a trolley I would prefer a gear-driven, manual type. The straight manual types are too hard to move precisely, and the electrics are expensive and unnecessary unless you're frequently handling material. Here's a link for a 3-ton, however if you'll scroll down you'll see a 5-ton for $100 more. I agree with Alec and would go for the 5-ton. Your gantry is 4-ton. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200485276_200485276 Harbor Freight has a 5-ton hoist for $140, and Northern Tool's 5-ton hoists start at $200. You're going to have a sweet set-up. Jim In a message dated 4/2/2014 9:04:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alecsmyth at gmail.com writes: The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Steve McQueen <_psub101 at indy.rr.com_ (mailto:psub101 at indy.rr.com) > wrote: Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Wed Apr 2 11:29:51 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 08:29:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140402082951.BE87907A@m0005297.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 2 12:37:07 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:37:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <4nud2ql2oa9oig2mlml8tw9j.1396456502086@email.android.com> Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAlec Smyth wrote:The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Steve McQueen wrote: Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. ?I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 2 14:40:40 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: <96d2a.59e88611.406db3a7@aol.com> Scott, It just occurred to me that the load bearing capacity of your floor slab needs to be considered as well. Each of the four wheels of the gantry has a contact area of not much more than 1 sq. in. You might need to put something down over the area where the gantry will be when it's under load in order to spread the load out. Otherwise you might end up with a cracked floor. It might be a needless concern, but I've seen several instances where slabs have been cracked and distorted. Jim In a message dated 4/2/2014 11:37:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alec Smyth wrote: The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Steve McQueen <_psub101 at indy.rr.com_ (mailto:psub101 at indy.rr.com) > wrote: Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 2 17:53:14 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:53:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Message-ID: I didn't think of that. I will put down some plate steel. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJimToddPsub at aol.com wrote:Scott, It just occurred to me that the load bearing capacity of your floor slab needs to be considered as well.? Each of the four wheels of the gantry?has a contact area of not?much more than 1 sq. in.? You might need to put something down over the area where the gantry will be when it's under load in order to spread the load out.? Otherwise you might end up with a cracked floor.??It?might be a needless concern, but I've seen several instances?where slabs have been cracked and distorted. Jim ? In a message dated 4/2/2014 11:37:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alec Smyth wrote: The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Steve McQueen wrote: Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. ?I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. Steve On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:25:39 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:25:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott, you probably won't find this little story of significant relevance or importance in your case, but... I've been working on a cannon project for the last few years (on and off) building a civil war siege mortar with an 8 inch bore, but that uses the carriage design of the 13" seacoast mortar. The barrel weighs in at exactly 1012 lbs. and the base at around 1300 lbs. for a total of well over a ton. Our tractor won't lift that much, so dad and I found ourselves building a gantry on the cheap! Mobility wasn't much of an issue for us because all we needed to do was lift up and set down on the deck of a flatbed after we backed it under the gun. So we built two stanchions from 10 foot 6X6's and spanned them 10 feet across with a 4X6 box channel 3/8" thick. We bought steel end caps for the 6X6 stanchions (to keep them from splitting) and put a tripod like leg arrangement on each stanchion for stability. To keep the beam from falling off the top of the stanchions we screwed a piece of wood into either side of the top of each leg that stuck up past the beam to sandwich it in. We wrapped a chain around the middle of the box channel and hooked a cheapie "2-ton" hoist onto the chain. BANG! Done for under $500. It worked in a pinch but I put the 2-ton in quotes because 1 ton was almost too much for this cheapie chinese thing. We have since upgraded to a true 2-ton hoist that I got off a friend of mine. Our cheapie hoist would occasionally "slip" and even if you weren't having a picnic under the mortar it was still nerve racking. Point being: splurge on a really nice hoist. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, swaters wrote: > I didn't think of that. I will put down some plate steel. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > Scott, > It just occurred to me that the load bearing capacity of your floor slab > needs to be considered as well. Each of the four wheels of the gantry has > a contact area of not much more than 1 sq. in. You might need to put > something down over the area where the gantry will be when it's under load > in order to spread the load out. Otherwise you might end up with a cracked > floor. It might be a needless concern, but I've seen several > instances where slabs have been cracked and distorted. > Jim > > In a message dated 4/2/2014 11:37:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > swaters at waters-ks.com writes: > > Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. > I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alec Smyth wrote: > The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its > been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These > things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but > the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to > get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably > want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up > with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so > is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 > instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: > >> Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on >> you? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Steve McQueen wrote: >> Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The >> trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose >> ratings over what I expected. >> >> I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you >> might add that to your considerations. >> >> Steve >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: >> >>> I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have >>> a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and >>> there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a >>> suggestion what to get and where to get it? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 05:55:42 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396518942.95319.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Do you have a problem with your neighbours Douglas? You could have fun with that in the keys, firing it out to sea. Alan ________________________________ From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift Scott, you probably won't find this little story of significant relevance or importance in your case, but...? I've been working on a cannon project for the last few years (on and off) building a civil war siege mortar with an 8 inch bore, but that uses the carriage design of the 13" seacoast mortar. The barrel weighs in at exactly 1012 lbs. and the base at around 1300 lbs. for a total of well over a ton. Our tractor won't lift that much, so dad and I found ourselves building a gantry on the cheap!? Mobility wasn't much of an issue for us because all we needed to do was lift up and set down on the deck of a flatbed after we backed it under the gun. So we built two stanchions from 10 foot 6X6's and spanned them 10 feet across with a 4X6 box channel 3/8" thick. We bought steel end caps for the 6X6 stanchions (to keep them from splitting) and put a tripod like leg arrangement on each stanchion for stability. To keep the beam from falling off the top of the stanchions we screwed a piece of wood into either side of the top of each leg that stuck up past the beam to sandwich it in. We wrapped a chain around the middle of the box channel and hooked a cheapie "2-ton" hoist onto the chain. BANG! Done for under $500. It worked in a pinch but I put the 2-ton in quotes because 1 ton was almost too much for this cheapie chinese thing. We have since upgraded to a true 2-ton hoist that I got off a friend of mine. Our cheapie hoist would occasionally "slip" and even if you weren't having a picnic under the mortar it was still nerve racking. Point being: splurge on a really nice hoist. ~ Douglas S.?? ? ?? On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, swaters wrote: I didn't think of that. I will put down some plate steel. >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > >Scott, >It just occurred to me that the load bearing capacity of your floor slab needs to be considered as well.? Each of the four wheels of the gantry?has a contact area of not?much more than 1 sq. in.? You might need to put something down over the area where the gantry will be when it's under load in order to spread the load out.? Otherwise you might end up with a cracked floor.??It?might be a needless concern, but I've seen several instances?where slabs have been cracked and distorted. >Jim >? >In a message dated 4/2/2014 11:37:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: >Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Alec Smyth wrote: >> >>The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. >> >> >>Best, >> >>Alec >> >> >> >>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: >> >>Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on you? >>>Thanks, >>>Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>>Steve McQueen wrote: >>> >>>Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose ratings over what I expected. >>> >>>?I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you might add that to your considerations. >>> >>>Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: >>> >>>I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion what to get and where to get it? >>>>? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 06:03:03 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 03:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minnkota 101s Message-ID: <1396519383.35251.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Found this psub post / white paper, from 2000 on Minnkota 101s that may be of? interest to a few people. http://www.psubs.org/designguide/wmkmotor.html Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Apr 3 06:35:17 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:35:17 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> References: <20140401090128.BE8842AD@m0048137.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, This might be a dumb question, but how did you manage to get such a nice view of the stresses in your viewport? Ive got a polerizing filer which i bought specially, but it didnt seem to work properly. Are you shining a uv light on it or something? Thanks James On 1 April 2014 17:01, Brian Cox wrote: > Hi Doug, > I think I'm going to see what finished windows would > cost me from Hydrospace. The chamber for the annealing would need to be > completely re-thought out. I was thinking that maybe an enclosed liquid, > like antifreeze, could be used to circulate through a special chamber that > would be surrounded with the liquid. That way you could really get a > handle on the exact temperature of a circulating liquid. But still you have > to change the temp, maybe a mixing valve. But by the time I got through > with that I could probably buy a number of viewports ! > > Attached is a shot of the stresses I induced with my bad annealing attempt > > Brian > > > > > > > > > My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't > go well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to > try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to > your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said > than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:25:48 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:25:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift In-Reply-To: <1396518942.95319.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1396518942.95319.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: :) On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Alan James wrote: > Do you have a problem with your neighbours Douglas? > You could have fun with that in the keys, firing it out to sea. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Douglas Suhr > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:25 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gantry lift > > Scott, you probably won't find this little story of significant relevance > or importance in your case, but... > > I've been working on a cannon project for the last few years (on and off) > building a civil war siege mortar with an 8 inch bore, but that uses the > carriage design of the 13" seacoast mortar. The barrel weighs in at exactly > 1012 lbs. and the base at around 1300 lbs. for a total of well over a ton. > Our tractor won't lift that much, so dad and I found ourselves building a > gantry on the cheap! > > Mobility wasn't much of an issue for us because all we needed to do was > lift up and set down on the deck of a flatbed after we backed it under the > gun. So we built two stanchions from 10 foot 6X6's and spanned them 10 feet > across with a 4X6 box channel 3/8" thick. We bought steel end caps for the > 6X6 stanchions (to keep them from splitting) and put a tripod like leg > arrangement on each stanchion for stability. To keep the beam from falling > off the top of the stanchions we screwed a piece of wood into either side > of the top of each leg that stuck up past the beam to sandwich it in. We > wrapped a chain around the middle of the box channel and hooked a cheapie > "2-ton" hoist onto the chain. BANG! Done for under $500. It worked in a > pinch but I put the 2-ton in quotes because 1 ton was almost too much for > this cheapie chinese thing. We have since upgraded to a true 2-ton hoist > that I got off a friend of mine. Our cheapie hoist would occasionally > "slip" and even if you weren't having a picnic under the mortar it was > still nerve racking. Point being: splurge on a really nice hoist. ~ Douglas > S. > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, swaters wrote: > > I didn't think of that. I will put down some plate steel. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > Scott, > It just occurred to me that the load bearing capacity of your floor slab > needs to be considered as well. Each of the four wheels of the gantry has > a contact area of not much more than 1 sq. in. You might need to put > something down over the area where the gantry will be when it's under load > in order to spread the load out. Otherwise you might end up with a cracked > floor. It might be a needless concern, but I've seen several > instances where slabs have been cracked and distorted. > Jim > > In a message dated 4/2/2014 11:37:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > swaters at waters-ks.com writes: > > Haha. Good advice Alec. I just bought the 5 ton one from Harbor freight. > I'll get my wife Katy to put it up for me. She works out. Haha. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alec Smyth wrote: > The one that broke was a 2 ton Harbor Freight. I now use a 3 ton and its > been fine. They also have a 5 ton, which I would suggest for a K350. These > things are cheap and there is little price difference between them, but > the're really heavy and I like taking the hoist down when not needed, to > get all the chain out of the way. If you use a 5 ton, you will probably > want to leave it in place because it weights about 80 lbs. I can reach up > with the 3 ton hoist and click it onto the crane, but it weighs 50 lbs so > is getting near my limit. Which all goes to prove that if you have a K350 > instead of a K250, you'll have to spend more time at the gym. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:40 AM, swaters wrote: > > Ok. Cool. Thanks Steve. Alec, what was the hoist you had that broke on > you? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Steve McQueen wrote: > Scott, I just bought a generic trolley and hoist (Harbor Freight). The > trolley needs to fit your beam size (mine was adjustable) and I chose > ratings over what I expected. > > I didn't considered an electric vs. manual hoist at the time but you > might add that to your considerations. > > Steve > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:53 PM, wrote: > > I just purchased a gantry lift on craigslist in Texas. It doesn't have a > trolley or chain hoist though. I started looking on the internet and there > is a huge range of trolleys and chain hoists. Does anyone have a suggestion > what to get and where to get it? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Apr 3 10:19:07 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 07:19:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140403071907.BE860B6B@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Apr 3 10:58:13 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:58:13 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140403071907.BE860B6B@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20140403071907.BE860B6B@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Ok, thanks. I'll have to get another lense, ive only got 1, but they are cheap enough. Many thanks James On 3 April 2014 15:19, Brian Cox wrote: > Hi James, > I used a florescent light in a light table that I had. > The lenses have to be opposing each other and on either side of the > acrylic. If you look at your lenses closely you'll see that one side > is different that the other. So when they are in line with the light > source you want them with one " heads and one tails " . Then after you > have them like that then slowly turn the top one you have in your hand to > reveal the stress layers. The stress layers are really evident in a piece > of acrylic that has been drilled, so if you have such a piece try it with > that . > > Brian > > --- jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com wrote: > > From: James Frankland > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:35:17 +0100 > > Hi Brian, > > This might be a dumb question, but how did you manage to get such a nice > view of the stresses in your viewport? Ive got a polerizing filer which i > bought specially, but it didnt seem to work properly. Are you shining a uv > light on it or something? > Thanks > James > > On 1 April 2014 17:01, Brian Cox wrote: > > Hi Doug, > I think I'm going to see what finished windows would > cost me from Hydrospace. The chamber for the annealing would need to be > completely re-thought out. I was thinking that maybe an enclosed liquid, > like antifreeze, could be used to circulate through a special chamber that > would be surrounded with the liquid. That way you could really get a > handle on the exact temperature of a circulating liquid. But still you have > to change the temp, maybe a mixing valve. But by the time I got through > with that I could probably buy a number of viewports ! > > Attached is a shot of the stresses I induced with my bad annealing attempt > > Brian > > > > > > > > > My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't > go well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to > try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to > your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said > than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Apr 3 12:24:23 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:24:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140403092423.BE898D2C@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Apr 3 16:23:47 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:23:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic Message-ID: <20140403132347.BE94D679@m0048141.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 3 16:45:46 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] insurance Message-ID: <1396557946.33728.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My daughter dug up an insurance quote,?she went to an equipment insurer.? Transport insurance anywhere in Canada and USA?is 650 dollars per year and storage insurance is 450 dollars per year.??Also they charge a 150 dollar ?fee for some mystery reason.? David, thanks' your insurance lady contacted me but she is only licensed for California.? Maybe I should move down there.? I like California! Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Apr 4 04:59:03 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:59:03 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic In-Reply-To: <20140403132347.BE94D679@m0048141.ppops.net> References: <20140403132347.BE94D679@m0048141.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Its about 100mm square. Might be ok to cut in half, but it was only a couple of quid. On 3 April 2014 21:23, Brian Cox wrote: > James, > How big is the lens you have? Maybe you could > just cut it in half. > > > Brian > > > --- jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com wrote: > > From: James Frankland > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:58:13 +0100 > > Hi Brian, > > Ok, thanks. I'll have to get another lense, ive only got 1, but they are > cheap enough. > > Many thanks > James > > On 3 April 2014 15:19, Brian Cox wrote: > > Hi James, > I used a florescent light in a light table that I had. > The lenses have to be opposing each other and on either side of the > acrylic. If you look at your lenses closely you'll see that one side > is different that the other. So when they are in line with the light > source you want them with one " heads and one tails " . Then after you > have them like that then slowly turn the top one you have in your hand to > reveal the stress layers. The stress layers are really evident in a piece > of acrylic that has been drilled, so if you have such a piece try it with > that . > > Brian > > --- jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com wrote: > > From: James Frankland > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:35:17 +0100 > > Hi Brian, > > This might be a dumb question, but how did you manage to get such a nice > view of the stresses in your viewport? Ive got a polerizing filer which i > bought specially, but it didnt seem to work properly. Are you shining a uv > light on it or something? > Thanks > James > > On 1 April 2014 17:01, Brian Cox wrote: > > Hi Doug, > I think I'm going to see what finished windows would > cost me from Hydrospace. The chamber for the annealing would need to be > completely re-thought out. I was thinking that maybe an enclosed liquid, > like antifreeze, could be used to circulate through a special chamber that > would be surrounded with the liquid. That way you could really get a > handle on the exact temperature of a circulating liquid. But still you have > to change the temp, maybe a mixing valve. But by the time I got through > with that I could probably buy a number of viewports ! > > Attached is a shot of the stresses I induced with my bad annealing attempt > > Brian > > > > > > > > > My sympathies Brian. I'm sorry that your experimental annealing didn't > go well, but as they say, it is always better to try and fail than fail to > try. It sounds like perhaps you just need to make some modifications to > your oven to better regulate temperatures, but I'm sure that is easier said > than done. Are you planning to make another attempt? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Brian Cox wrote: > > Epic Fail ! my attempt to anneal a viewport did not go well. The > temps swings were so great that it was impossible to regulate. The mass in > the oven that I had hoped would moderate the swings made it so the lag time > between the heating cycle and when the thermometer sensor saw the > temperature change uncontrollable. And the heat was not even though out > the oven as well. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > I say when in doubt, test. If your not building a test chamber , you can > make your sample window to fit my chamber and I will test it for you. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:23:18 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Hank, > I have the book, that's where the annealing schedules are, they > vary quite a bit, there is an absolute minimum time and then there is the > original recommended time. The recommended time comes out to be around 51 > hours where as the shortened time is maybe half that. I'm just doing one > test piece to start off with. I was also using the same oven ( a toaster > oven I got from Sears for $75 bucks) to heat the welding rod to 250 degrees > F before we used the rod ( it had been sitting out for a few days). I was > able to keep the temperature fairly even for the welding rod at 250. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Do you have the Stachiw book of Acrylics, I can send you mine if you don't > have a copy. There is some pretty important stuff in there. > Hank > > > On , hank pronk wrote: > Brian, > How thick is your acrylic? should take more than a night? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:33:09 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Yes, I have the annealing schedules. I have an electric oven and two > digital thermometers, one I'm going to put in a piece of acrylic and the > other one I'm going to use to monitor the oven temperature itself . I'm > worried that the thermometer in the acrylic won't register until it gets > heated throughout, and so then the oven temp might go higher than it > should. So between the two readouts I can heat it gradually up. It'll be > a long night. > > Brian > > --- hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca wrote: > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Brian, > Are you going to anneal your windows yourself? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 24, 2014 6:03:10 PM, Brian Cox < > brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com> wrote: > Used my polarized lenses on the newly cut piece and it appears clouded > throughout the whole piece. Where as another piece I have, you can clearly > see a stress area around where it has been drilled. > > Brian > > > --- emile at airesearch.nl wrote: > > From: "Emile van Essen" > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:40:46 +0100 > > As far as I know it is only cast. > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Brian Cox > *Verzonden:* maandag 24 maart 2014 20:37 > *Aan:* PSubs > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealing acrylic > > I'm planning on annealing my viewports, does anyone know if the acrylic > from the factory is pre-shrunk ? > > Brian _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:58:28 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 14:58:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes Message-ID: Please confirm or rebuke the following train of thought. If one were to use an unsupported cylinder of sufficient sizing for the intended design depth,...then that same design is free to use external framing to form an external shape of choice? Assume uneven spacing of said frames. Joe Sent from my iPhone From cast55 at telus.net Fri Apr 4 17:25:16 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:25:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79dedeed-f07a-4e8e-880f-6cf9f7210bc5@email.android.com> You are likely to run into a problem with total weight, and hence carrying capacity. The reason we use stiffeners at all is to create a more efficient structure, where the various modes of failure all have similar probabilities. Unstiffened cylinders save the additional work and welding of a multi-part structure, but have to be comparatively thicker to withstand the buckling modes, meaning you have a structure which has more strength than is necessary for some modes of failure, and consequently is heavier. While you are correct that you can add additional superstructure to the outside of the unstiffened cylinder without reducing its strength, you might end up having to use the superstructure to attach syntactic foam blocks to offset the necessarily heavy hull. Sean On April 4, 2014 12:58:28 PM MDT, Joe Perkel wrote: >Please confirm or rebuke the following train of thought. > >If one were to use an unsupported cylinder of sufficient sizing for the >intended design depth,...then that same design is free to use external >framing to form an external shape of choice? > >Assume uneven spacing of said frames. > >Joe > >Sent from my iPhone >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Fri Apr 4 17:29:25 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:29:25 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes In-Reply-To: <79dedeed-f07a-4e8e-880f-6cf9f7210bc5@email.android.com> References: <79dedeed-f07a-4e8e-880f-6cf9f7210bc5@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3c6d0a25-4315-4e79-8e74-760010467d17@email.android.com> That said, if you are building outside the hull envelope anyway, why not design an optimized hull with external framing? It requires full penetration 100% NDT welding, but is otherwise stronger than an internally stiffened design. Sean On April 4, 2014 3:25:16 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: >You are likely to run into a problem with total weight, and hence >carrying capacity. The reason we use stiffeners at all is to create a >more efficient structure, where the various modes of failure all have >similar probabilities. Unstiffened cylinders save the additional work >and welding of a multi-part structure, but have to be comparatively >thicker to withstand the buckling modes, meaning you have a structure >which has more strength than is necessary for some modes of failure, >and consequently is heavier. While you are correct that you can add >additional superstructure to the outside of the unstiffened cylinder >without reducing its strength, you might end up having to use the >superstructure to attach syntactic foam blocks to offset the >necessarily heavy hull. > >Sean > > >On April 4, 2014 12:58:28 PM MDT, Joe Perkel >wrote: >>Please confirm or rebuke the following train of thought. >> >>If one were to use an unsupported cylinder of sufficient sizing for >the >>intended design depth,...then that same design is free to use external >>framing to form an external shape of choice? >> >>Assume uneven spacing of said frames. >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from my iPhone >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >-- >Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 17:42:13 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 14:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396647733.72063.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, my humble opinion is that you will increase the weight of your hull by making it a uniform thickness. This will mean that it will reduce the amount of lead weight you? can put down low to lower the centre of gravity. When you empty your ballast tanks you may topple over & have to do a wet exit via your new moon pool. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 7:58 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes Please confirm or rebuke the following train of thought. If one were to use an unsupported cylinder of sufficient sizing for the intended design depth,...then that same design is free to use external framing to form an external shape of choice? Assume uneven spacing of said frames. Joe Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 18:04:00 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators Message-ID: <1396649040.53201.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi,? I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit of clamping pressure at one?end of the motion. One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability.? Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 18:07:34 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:07:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Shapes In-Reply-To: <3c6d0a25-4315-4e79-8e74-760010467d17@email.android.com> References: <79dedeed-f07a-4e8e-880f-6cf9f7210bc5@email.android.com> <3c6d0a25-4315-4e79-8e74-760010467d17@email.android.com> Message-ID: <9949ED91-2690-476E-9163-D366A7C4DA7F@yahoo.com> Sean, Because I really don't know how to do it. As internal stiffener designs go. I have a ready template in the K-350. I would like to go outside with a double hull design if I could do it right and answer ongoing maintenance. Some interesting reduced scale replica options present themselves this way. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 4, 2014, at 5:29 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > That said, if you are building outside the hull envelope anyway, why not design an optimized hull with external framing? It requires full penetration 100% NDT welding, but is otherwise stronger than an internally stiffened design. > > Sean > > > On April 4, 2014 3:25:16 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: >> >> You are likely to run into a problem with total weight, and hence carrying capacity. The reason we use stiffeners at all is to create a more efficient structure, where the various modes of failure all have similar probabilities. Unstiffened cylinders save the additional work and welding of a multi-part structure, but have to be comparatively thicker to withstand the buckling modes, meaning you have a structure which has more strength than is necessary for some modes of failure, and consequently is heavier. While you are correct that you can add additional superstructure to the outside of the unstiffened cylinder without reducing its strength, you might end up having to use the superstructure to attach syntactic foam blocks to offset the necessarily heavy hull. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On April 4, 2014 12:58:28 PM MDT, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>> Please confirm or rebuke the following train of thought. >>> >>> If one were to use an unsupported cylinder of sufficient sizing for the intended design depth,...then that same design is free to use external framing to form an external shape of choice? >>> >>> Assume uneven spacing of said frames. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 4 18:10:19 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <1396649040.53201.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1396649040.53201.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1396649419.67199.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. No need for an actuator Hank On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi,? I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit of clamping pressure at one?end of the motion. One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability.? Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 19:15:52 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <1396649419.67199.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1396649040.53201.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1396649419.67199.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1396653352.67087.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Hank, my problem is that I need to have a holding force at the end of the 180 degrees of rotation at one end, & I can't see any simple linkage that will do it. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators Alan, you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. No need for an actuator Hank On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi,? I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit of clamping pressure at one?end of the motion. One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability.? Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kocpnt at tds.net Sat Apr 5 09:13:08 2014 From: kocpnt at tds.net (kocpnt tds.net) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 08:13:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <1396649419.67199.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1396649040.53201.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1396649419.67199.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, If you use a thru hull, a linear actuator working at 12, 24 or 36 volts works well as well as giving more positive locations than air. They are simple and robust however slower than an air cylinder. You can find some examples at www.surpluscenter.com Best Regards, Jim K On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:10 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Alan, > you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. > No need for an actuator > Hank > On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James < > alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, > I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic > rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. > I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit > of clamping pressure at one end of the motion. > One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there > reliability. > Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external > rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sat Apr 5 10:43:27 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 10:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators Message-ID: <20295.4016b977.4071708f@aol.com> Hi Alan, Could you use a sealed-unit worm gear operated by a small electric motor? That would hold at 180 degrees or any other position you desire. Jim In a message dated 4/5/2014 8:13:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kocpnt at tds.net writes: Hi Alan, If you use a thru hull, a linear actuator working at 12, 24 or 36 volts works well as well as giving more positive locations than air. They are simple and robust however slower than an air cylinder. You can find some examples at _www.surpluscenter.com_ (http://www.surpluscenter.com/) Best Regards, Jim K On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:10 PM, hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > wrote: Alan, you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. No need for an actuator Hank On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > wrote: Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit of clamping pressure at one end of the motion. One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability. Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 15:39:45 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 12:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <20295.4016b977.4071708f@aol.com> References: <20295.4016b977.4071708f@aol.com> Message-ID: <1396726785.70234.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jim K & T, thats got me re-thinking things. I might be better to rotate via an electric motor inside the hull & hold with pneumatics outside. I've got an idea those rotary actuators are expensive. Alan? ________________________________ From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators Hi Alan, Could you use a sealed-unit worm gear operated by a small electric motor?? That would?hold at 180 degrees or any other?position you desire. Jim ? In a message dated 4/5/2014 8:13:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kocpnt at tds.net writes: Hi Alan, > > >If you use a thru hull, a linear actuator working at 12, 24 or 36 volts works well as well as giving more positive locations than air. They are simple and robust however slower than an air cylinder. > > >You can find some examples at www.surpluscenter.com > > >Best Regards, > > > > >Jim K > > > >On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:10 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Alan, >>you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. >>No need for an actuator >>Hank >>On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James wrote: >> >>Hi,? >>I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic >>rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. >>I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit >>of clamping pressure at one?end of the motion. >>One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability.? >>Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external >>rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. >>Alan >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Sun Apr 6 21:41:40 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 19:41:40 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <1396726785.70234.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20295.4016b977.4071708f@aol.com> <1396726785.70234.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53420254.6010204@telus.net> I have built manipulators in the past using a small hydraulic motor to rotate the inner half of a hydraulic slip ring, (outer half, motor and arm structure all attached) with manipulator jaws attached that were actuated hydraulically through the slip ring. Not sure why you're against hydraulics, but there's no reason you couldn't do the same thing with an electric stepper motor and pneumatic actuation. Sean On 2014-04-05 13:39, Alan James wrote: > Thanks Jim K & T, > thats got me re-thinking things. I might be better to rotate via an > electric > motor inside the hull & hold with pneumatics outside. I've got an idea > those > rotary actuators are expensive. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators > > Hi Alan, > Could you use a sealed-unit worm gear operated by a small electric > motor? That would hold at 180 degrees or any other position you desire. > Jim > > In a message dated 4/5/2014 8:13:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > kocpnt at tds.net writes: > > Hi Alan, > > If you use a thru hull, a linear actuator working at 12, 24 or 36 > volts works well as well as giving more positive locations than > air. They are simple and robust however slower than an air cylinder. > > You can find some examples at www.surpluscenter.com > > > Best Regards, > > > Jim K > > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:10 PM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > Alan, > you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a > watts link. > No need for an actuator > Hank > On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James > > wrote: > Hi, > I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either > pneumatic > rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating > underwater. > I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held > with a bit > of clamping pressure at one end of the motion. > One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those > items, & there reliability. > Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an > external > rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. > Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 7 20:51:32 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 17:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] transducer Message-ID: <1396918292.55865.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does anyone happen to have an extra 9khz transducer for an UQC ?under their bench.?? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 00:29:03 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 23:29:03 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 01:08:37 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 01:08:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66B10EE7-1548-4C03-8BB0-BE51E59F912A@AOL.com> Scott, Shoot holes? Hell no! I'm liking the idea. The 5-7 years is a long time unless you are including the development time with the K. You say the word I'll be out there with spare jeans in one hand and a set of wrenches in the other. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 12:29 AM, swaters wrote: > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 06:21:24 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 03:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators In-Reply-To: <53420254.6010204@telus.net> References: <20295.4016b977.4071708f@aol.com> <1396726785.70234.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53420254.6010204@telus.net> Message-ID: <1396952484.14970.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Sean, sounds a good idea, I will look in to it a bit more. I'm not against hydraulics, but with a ready sauce of energy in compressed air, I will save space,? complexity & limit noise?by going with pneumatics over hydraulics.? The sub is for recreational purposes to 500 ft. Regards Alan ________________________________ From: Sean T. Stevenson To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 7, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators I have built manipulators in the past using a small hydraulic motor to rotate the inner half of a hydraulic slip ring, (outer half, motor and arm structure all attached) with manipulator jaws attached that were actuated hydraulically through the slip ring.? Not sure why you're against hydraulics, but there's no reason you couldn't do the same thing with an electric stepper motor and pneumatic actuation. Sean On 2014-04-05 13:39, Alan James wrote: Thanks Jim K & T, >thats got me re-thinking things. I might be better to rotate via an electric >motor inside the hull & hold with pneumatics outside. I've got an idea those >rotary actuators are expensive. >Alan? > > > >________________________________ > From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:43 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Rotary Actuators > > > > >Hi Alan, >Could you use a sealed-unit worm gear operated by a small electric motor?? That would?hold at 180 degrees or any other?position you desire. >Jim >? >In a message dated 4/5/2014 8:13:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kocpnt at tds.net writes: > >>Hi Alan, >> >> >>If you use a thru hull, a linear actuator working at 12, 24 or 36 volts works well as well as giving more positive locations than air. They are simple and robust however slower than an air cylinder. >> >> >>You can find some examples at www.surpluscenter.com >> >> >>Best Regards, >> >> >> >> >>Jim K >> >> >> >>On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:10 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Alan, >>>you can rotate 180 degrees with a single air cylinder and a watts link. >>>No need for an actuator >>>Hank >>>On Friday, April 4, 2014 4:04:18 PM, Alan James wrote: >>> >>>Hi,? >>>I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with either pneumatic >>>rack & pinion actuators, or rotary vane actuators, operating underwater. >>>I need to rotate something through 180 degrees & have it held with a bit >>>of clamping pressure at one?end of the motion. >>>One concern is seawater getting in to the gearing of those items, & there reliability.? >>>Another option, could be a normal pneumatic cylinder with an external >>>rack & pinion added. Am trying not to have to go to hydraulics. >>>Alan >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 07:12:17 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 04:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <66B10EE7-1548-4C03-8BB0-BE51E59F912A@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1396955537.34276.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

For that depth I would suggest copying what was done with Idabel, spherical shell(s). (I don't know what it weighs)

If I may also suggest that this is a great opportunity to do a reduced scale version of an existing commercial design such as Alvin, Nautile, Shinkai, etc.

The twilight zone would be cool. We've reached a point I believe where more people have gone into space then have travelled to the abyss.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 8 07:15:50 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 04:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <66B10EE7-1548-4C03-8BB0-BE51E59F912A@AOL.com> References: <66B10EE7-1548-4C03-8BB0-BE51E59F912A@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1396955750.80783.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Wow that is deep, Karl Stanley built one, so why not you.? Hank On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:08:59 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Scott, Shoot holes? Hell no! I'm liking the idea. The 5-7 years is a long time unless you are including the development time with the K. You say the word I'll be out there with spare jeans in one hand and a set of wrenches in the other. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 12:29 AM, swaters wrote: I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 07:20:42 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 06:20:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: Haha. Cool! Thanks Vance! The 5-7 years includes design time and learning how to use CAD. I would be ok with it being shorter than that too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneVance Bradley wrote:Scott, Shoot holes? Hell no! I'm liking the idea. The 5-7 years is a long time unless you are including the development time with the K. You say the word I'll be out there with spare jeans in one hand and a set of wrenches in the other. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 12:29 AM, swaters wrote: I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 09:01:41 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 08:01:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the sphears Joe.? What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush depth or rated vs crush ratio?? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Scott, Wow that is deep, Karl Stanley built one, so why not you.? Hank On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:08:59 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: Scott, Shoot holes? Hell no! I'm liking the idea. The 5-7 years is a long time unless you are including the development time with the K. You say the word I'll be out there with spare jeans in one hand and a set of wrenches in the other. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 12:29 AM, swaters wrote: I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Tue Apr 8 09:33:04 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 07:33:04 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5343FA90.9040501@telus.net> On 2014-04-08 07:01, swaters wrote: > Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the > sphears Joe. > > What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush > depth or rated vs crush ratio? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > Bare ABS rules give you 1.25 over predicted failure. 1.5 - 2.0 is common in actual practice. For a 1000m hull a 2.0 SF would necessitate a lot of extraneous material. Perhaps take the service conditions into account? (i.e. will 1000m dives will be typical or exceptional?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 10:06:28 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 07:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1396965988.69541.YahooMailBasic@web140902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Your biggest challenges beyond technical are going to be budgetary for both fabrication and operations. Whether you can succeed with a 5-ton weight limit for the parameters you have provided will depend upon the design. Using spheres will get you the most depth for the least amount of displacement but will also make interior design and occupant accommodations more challenging than a cylinder. For that depth and weight you are looking at a big trailer, big tow vehicle, and big fuel transport budget. Bionic Guppy is 7-ton so you may want to talk to JimK about any transport issues he's run into. BG is also designed for ramp use and Jim could provide input with issues related to launch/recovery at a ramp. I can help you run numbers on the hull calculator if you give me the general diameter that you want to go with. I think BG is 48 inches and fits two occupants side-by-side in front of large dome and pilot behind them. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 12:29 AM I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.3) Learn to use CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are1) Hold 3 people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 10:39:30 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 09:39:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <59ygo4yvgmwf9snijipagsac.1396967240250@email.android.com> Jon, The reason I am aiming for 10,500 is I can tow it with a 1 ton truck. I am not worried about transport and launching if I can keep it at that weight or less and I have the equipment to do it with my businesses. I would like to make it a cylinder, but may have to go to spheres. I would say you are right about a cylinder idea of 48". I would like to go with external rings if possible.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace wrote:Your biggest challenges beyond technical are going to be budgetary for both fabrication and operations.? Whether you can succeed with a 5-ton weight limit for the parameters you have provided will depend upon the design.? Using spheres will get you the most depth for the least amount of displacement but will also make interior design and occupant accommodations more challenging than a cylinder.? For that depth and weight you are looking at a big trailer, big tow vehicle, and big fuel transport budget.? Bionic Guppy is 7-ton so you may want to talk to JimK about any transport issues he's run into.? BG is also designed for ramp use and Jim could provide input with issues related to launch/recovery at a ramp. I can help you run numbers on the hull calculator if you give me the general diameter that you want to go with.? I think BG is 48 inches and fits two occupants side-by-side in front of large dome and pilot behind them. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 12:29 AM I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.3) Learn to use CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are1) Hold 3 people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 10:43:02 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 09:43:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <0hmyev93pip4ba251bvuadpo.1396968099404@email.android.com> Hard to say, but I would think in designing this sub to go deep, that I would use it alot to go on deep dive and not many shallow dives. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote:On 2014-04-08 07:01, swaters wrote: Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the sphears Joe.? What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush depth or rated vs crush ratio?? Thanks, Scott Waters Bare ABS rules give you 1.25 over predicted failure.? 1.5 - 2.0 is common in actual practice.? For a 1000m hull a 2.0 SF would necessitate a lot of extraneous material.? Perhaps take the service conditions into account? (i.e. will 1000m dives will be typical or exceptional?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Apr 8 11:13:34 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 10:13:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <0hmyev93pip4ba251bvuadpo.1396968099404@email.android.com> References: <0hmyev93pip4ba251bvuadpo.1396968099404@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1CCD2644-749E-49AF-A992-0331BB365E4E@aol.com> Scott, It sounds like a great project to design and build a sub with that deep capability. The continental shelf is somewhat shallower than that, so generally you would have to get a good distance off shore for any deep dives (some exceptions). That brings up the issue of longer distance sea transport and support. It might be a good idea to identify specifically the dive sites you would want to go to, their depths, distance from shore, availability of sea transport and surface support (and cost), etc. Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 9:43 AM, swaters wrote: > > Hard to say, but I would think in designing this sub to go deep, that I would use it alot to go on deep dive and not many shallow dives. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: >> On 2014-04-08 07:01, swaters wrote: >> Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the sphears Joe. >> >> What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush depth or rated vs crush ratio? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters > > Bare ABS rules give you 1.25 over predicted failure. 1.5 - 2.0 is common in actual practice. For a 1000m hull a 2.0 SF would necessitate a lot of extraneous material. Perhaps take the service conditions into account? (i.e. will 1000m dives will be typical or exceptional?). > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 11:42:58 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 10:42:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: Good idea Jim. I was baseing the depth off of Nuytco's deep rover and Triton subs 300/3. I figured that if that was a popular design depth that it made sence.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJim Todd wrote:Scott, It sounds like a great project to design and build a sub with that deep capability. ?The continental shelf is somewhat shallower than that, so generally you would have to get a good distance off shore for any deep dives (some exceptions). ?That brings up the issue of longer distance sea transport and support. ?It might be a good idea to identify specifically the dive sites you would want to go to, their depths, distance from shore, availability of sea transport and surface support (and cost), etc.? Jim? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 9:43 AM, swaters wrote: Hard to say, but I would think in designing this sub to go deep, that I would use it alot to go on deep dive and not many shallow dives. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: On 2014-04-08 07:01, swaters wrote: Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the sphears Joe. What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush depth or rated vs crush ratio?? Thanks, Scott Waters Bare ABS rules give you 1.25 over predicted failure.? 1.5 - 2.0 is common in actual practice.? For a 1000m hull a 2.0 SF would necessitate a lot of extraneous material.? Perhaps take the service conditions into account? (i.e. will 1000m dives will be typical or exceptional?). _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Tue Apr 8 12:37:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 08 Apr 2014 16:37 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5343FA90.9040501@telus.net> References: <5343FA90.9040501@telus.net> Message-ID: <1WXZ29-05FIrA0@fwd23.t-online.de> GL says 1,2 from work to test depth (for work depth over 300 m). And 1,73 from work to destroy depth (for depth over 600 m.) It says 2,0 from work to destroy depth if the water depth in the dive area is deeper than the work depth. So question number one: is the bottom in the dive area deeper than 1000 M ? Yes SF = 2,0 No : SF 1,73 I think 1,25 ABS is from work to test depth not to destroy depth ? A large dome for 1000 its a issue himself. vbr Carsten "Sean T. Stevenson" schrieb: On 2014-04-08 07:01, swaters wrote: Is there any pictures of Karls boat? I appriciate the idea about the sphears Joe. What is a good safety rating on a 1000m sub in terms of design crush depth or rated vs crush ratio? Thanks, Scott Waters Bare ABS rules give you 1.25 over predicted failure. 1.5 - 2.0 is common in actual practice. For a 1000m hull a 2.0 SF would necessitate a lot of extraneous material. Perhaps take the service conditions into account? (i.e. will 1000m dives will be typical or exceptional?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Tue Apr 8 12:39:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 08 Apr 2014 16:39 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1396965988.69541.YahooMailBasic@web140902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1396965988.69541.YahooMailBasic@web140902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1WXZ3b-3CtaFc0@fwd21.t-online.de> Another cost issue: The towing boat or crane boat to reach the dive spot? vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: > Your biggest challenges beyond technical are going to be budgetary for both fabrication and operations. Whether you can succeed with a 5-ton weight limit for the parameters you have provided will depend upon the design. Using spheres will get you the most depth for the least amount of displacement but will also make interior design and occupant accommodations more challenging than a cylinder. For that depth and weight you are looking at a big trailer, big tow vehicle, and big fuel transport budget. Bionic Guppy is 7-ton so you may want to talk to JimK about any transport issues he's run into. BG is also designed for ramp use and Jim could provide input with issues related to launch/recovery at a ramp. > > I can help you run numbers on the hull calculator if you give me the general diameter that you want to go with. I think BG is 48 inches and fits two occupants side-by-side in front of large dome and pilot behind them. > > Jon > > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 12:29 AM > > I am playing > with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I > am thinking.1) This project needs to be as > challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to > build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of > bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved > on in design and ability.3) Learn to use > CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to > complete > My initial goals are1) Hold 3 > people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) > Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very > effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic > dome front > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the > main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not > considering? > Thanks,Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent > from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 13:13:14 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 12:13:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <2i09bqi3fjuklbjoibdkb5x2.1396977010129@email.android.com> Very true. If possible towing would be preffered over crane just because of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get this boat way out to depth.? I fear my goal of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my business with excavator arms and hydrolic tooling.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneCarsten Standfu? wrote:Another cost issue: The towing boat or crane boat to reach the dive spot??? vbr Carsten "Jon Wallace" schrieb: > Your biggest challenges beyond technical are going to be budgetary for both fabrication and operations. Whether you can succeed with a 5-ton weight limit for the parameters you have provided will depend upon the design. Using spheres will get you the most depth for the least amount of displacement but will also make interior design and occupant accommodations more challenging than a cylinder. For that depth and weight you are looking at a big trailer, big tow vehicle, and big fuel transport budget. Bionic Guppy is 7-ton so you may want to talk to JimK about any transport issues he's run into. BG is also designed for ramp use and Jim could provide input with issues related to launch/recovery at a ramp. > > I can help you run numbers on the hull calculator if you give me the general diameter that you want to go with. I think BG is 48 inches and fits two occupants side-by-side in front of large dome and pilot behind them. > > Jon > > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 12:29 AM > > I am playing > with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I > am thinking.1) This project needs to be as > challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to > build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of > bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved > on in design and ability.3) Learn to use > CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to > complete > My initial goals are1) Hold 3 > people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) > Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very > effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic > dome front > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the > main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not > considering? > Thanks,Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent > from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 14:00:07 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 11:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <2i09bqi3fjuklbjoibdkb5x2.1396977010129@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1396980007.91911.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM Very true. If possible towing would be preffered over crane just because of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get this boat way out to depth.?I fear my goal of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my business with excavator arms and hydrolic tooling.?Thanks,Scott Waters From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 14:13:59 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:13:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1396980007.91911.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1396980007.91911.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <407DA6DB-78A2-41B5-BBA7-D95E1BF440E7@AOL.com> Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. > > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM > > Very true. If > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my > business with excavator arms and hydrolic > tooling. Thanks,Scott > Waters > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 14:27:04 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <407DA6DB-78A2-41B5-BBA7-D95E1BF440E7@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1396981624.94663.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 3.5 k daily,..Wow!

Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :)

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 15:05:24 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 14:05:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: I'm in! Haha -Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:3.5 k daily,..Wow! Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :) Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Vance Bradley ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 6:13:59 PM Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one.? Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. > > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance.? He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM > > Very true. If > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my > business with excavator arms and hydrolic > tooling. Thanks,Scott > Waters > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 15:12:29 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396984349.49563.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Apr 8 17:05:01 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> Hmm... how much does it cost for each day it sits in port? In a message dated 4/8/2014 1:27:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: 3.5 k daily,..Wow! Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :) Joe _ Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad_ (http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS) ____________________________________ From: Vance Bradley ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 6:13:59 PM Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace <_jon.wallace at yahoo.com_ (javascript:return) > wrote: > > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. > > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (javascript:return) > wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM > > Very true. If > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my > business with excavator arms and hydrolic > tooling. Thanks,Scott > Waters > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 17:10:38 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:10:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> References: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <681C44B2-B0A3-4396-8A13-8BEAFEF2418D@AOL.com> Crew salary, dock fees, insurance..... Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 5:05 PM, JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > > Hmm... how much does it cost for each day it sits in port? > > In a message dated 4/8/2014 1:27:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: > 3.5 k daily,..Wow! > > Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :) > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Vance Bradley ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 6:13:59 PM > > Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. > > > > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM > > > > Very true. If > > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because > > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get > > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal > > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge > > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my > > business with excavator arms and hydrolic > > tooling. Thanks,Scott > > Waters > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 17:40:55 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:40:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> References: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <2871C0A9-94AD-45DA-A880-24AD0F09F302@yahoo.com> We will follow the Walmart business model, everyone part-time without benefits and dock in Panama! Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 5:05 PM, JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > Hmm... how much does it cost for each day it sits in port? > > In a message dated 4/8/2014 1:27:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: > 3.5 k daily,..Wow! > > Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :) > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Vance Bradley ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 6:13:59 PM > > Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. > > > > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM > > > > Very true. If > > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because > > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get > > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal > > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge > > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my > > business with excavator arms and hydrolic > > tooling. Thanks,Scott > > Waters > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 17:53:17 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:53:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <2871C0A9-94AD-45DA-A880-24AD0F09F302@yahoo.com> References: <1d.764fadb0.4075be7d@aol.com> <2871C0A9-94AD-45DA-A880-24AD0F09F302@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58935726-792A-41D8-B17F-19C7B7DC1648@AOL.com> That'll work until the drug people take a shine to your boat. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 5:40 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > We will follow the Walmart business model, everyone part-time without benefits and dock in Panama! > > Joe > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 8, 2014, at 5:05 PM, JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: >> >> Hmm... how much does it cost for each day it sits in port? >> >> In a message dated 4/8/2014 1:27:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: >> 3.5 k daily,..Wow! >> >> Let's partner on an 85' workboat with an "A" Frame retrieval system! :) >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> From: Vance Bradley ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >> Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 6:13:59 PM >> >> Ship time is now about $3500/day plus fuel locally for an 85-foot workboat with an A-frame launch/retrieval system. >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Apr 8, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> > >> > I think Jim Todd's suggestion of scoping out perspective dive sites is a good one. Check out the online NOAA charts to find distances to deep water, get estimates on what a work-boat support ship will cost per day, and you'll get an idea of the cost for site access. >> > >> > Karl Stanley has a deep drop off within submersible power distance. He doesn't have the costs associated with traveling 24-30 miles off shore to find that kind of deep water. >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------- >> > On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: >> > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >> > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> > Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 1:13 PM >> > >> > Very true. If >> > possible towing would be preffered over crane just because >> > of cost. But you are right, I need to consider how to get >> > this boat way out to depth. I fear my goal >> > of very able tooling and manipulator arms will be a huge >> > goal. I have no experience in manipulators except my >> > business with excavator arms and hydrolic >> > tooling. Thanks,Scott >> > Waters >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 8 18:00:45 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scott's new sub Message-ID: <1396994445.70933.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, You may be biting off to much, going from a k350 to a k3,000 is a big leap.? I like your go big or go home attitude, but perhaps a jump to say a k1,000 is in order.?? Sell it to fund the k3,000. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 19:14:29 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:14:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <5prj8ubx44do45gmhnorcedu.1396998531634@email.android.com> So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAlan James wrote:Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 19:18:26 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 19:18:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5prj8ubx44do45gmhnorcedu.1396998531634@email.android.com> References: <5prj8ubx44do45gmhnorcedu.1396998531634@email.android.com> Message-ID: <50F8DF19-230D-4418-AD5A-E82BF202BD9E@AOL.com> Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > From: swaters > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 19:48:30 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:48:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneVance Bradley wrote:Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 20:06:28 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397001988.98092.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Best way is to create a Submarine account on SUBDB.INFO and share the files from there. When you have something to share let me know and we'll create the account...you'll need a name for the submarine even if it's temporary. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 7:48 PM Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure??Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of??I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research).Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott,in general people design their boats with a crush depth oftwice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 xthere proposed maximum operating depth.So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters.Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.3) Learn to use CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are1) Hold 3 people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From freepetesub at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 20:56:11 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397004971.67855.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alot of Cad programs alow you to export files to common formats such as jpeg,bitmap, pdf. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 4:48 PM Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure??Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of??I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research).Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott,in general people design their boats with a crush depth oftwice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 xthere proposed maximum operating depth.So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters.Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.3) Learn to use CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are1) Hold 3 people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alecsmyth at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 21:24:53 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 21:24:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A vietnamese psub, supposedly with AIP Message-ID: http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/science-it/98682/businessman-tests-his-mini-submarine-in-lake.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 21:44:31 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 21:44:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A vietnamese psub, supposedly with AIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71880F4C-DCE1-4FE3-82A6-C7C777881333@AOL.com> That's cool. It proves that our shared malady knows no boundaries. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/science-it/98682/businessman-tests-his-mini-submarine-in-lake.html > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 21:52:50 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 21:52:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A vietnamese psub, supposedly with AIP In-Reply-To: <71880F4C-DCE1-4FE3-82A6-C7C777881333@AOL.com> References: <71880F4C-DCE1-4FE3-82A6-C7C777881333@AOL.com> Message-ID: Nice find Alec. It is always interesting to see what types of homebuilts exist outside the psubs community. ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > That's cool. It proves that our shared malady knows no boundaries. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > > http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/science-it/98682/businessman-tests-his-mini-submarine-in-lake.html > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 22:03:46 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 22:03:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> References: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> Message-ID: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: > Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? > Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my > head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD > files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off > of? > I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall > psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like > sonar and manipulator arms and things. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next > question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi > capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* swaters > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I > am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of > difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to > be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to > overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Tue Apr 8 22:08:55 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 22:08:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: <40rkwwttb40qnmtp1rs3r58u.1397000506287@email.android.com> Message-ID: <81CA43D6-28D4-4195-8D35-75CECE262CB7@AOL.com> He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > > Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). > > I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. > > >> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >> Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? >> Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? >> I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Vance Bradley wrote: >> Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>> >>> So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> Alan James wrote: >>> Scott, >>> in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>> twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>> there proposed maximum operating depth. >>> So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>> Alan >>> >>> From: swaters >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>> >>> I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>> 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>> 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>> 3) Learn to use CAD >>> 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>> >>> My initial goals are >>> 1) Hold 3 people >>> 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>> 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>> 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>> 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>> >>> Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 22:13:47 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:13:47 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: Ok. Thanks Jon and Pete. I know this discussion has happened over and over, but I never felt like a good conclusion has been made, but what is the best CAD for a first timer to CAD, but still has all the capibilities that is needed to design a sub and do pressure testing? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePete Niedermayr wrote:Alot of Cad programs alow you to export files to? common formats such as jpeg,bitmap, pdf. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/8/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 4:48 PM Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure??Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of??I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research).Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott,in general people design their boats with a crush depth oftwice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 xthere proposed maximum operating depth.So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters.Alan ?????? ? From: swaters ? ? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine ??? I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.3) Learn to use CAD?4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are1) Hold 3 people2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)4) ? Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 22:14:54 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:14:54 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneVance Bradley wrote:He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 22:24:56 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 22:24:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! $125K for 2500 - 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr > wrote: > > Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am > sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) > depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform > them). > > I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a > better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be > looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major > issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ > Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: > >> Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? >> Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my >> head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD >> files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off >> of? >> I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall >> psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like >> sonar and manipulator arms and things. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone >> >> Vance Bradley wrote: >> Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >> >> So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next >> question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi >> capability? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone >> >> Alan James wrote: >> Scott, >> in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >> twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >> there proposed maximum operating depth. >> So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* swaters >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >> >> I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I >> am thinking. >> 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of >> difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >> 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs >> to be improved on in design and ability. >> 3) Learn to use CAD >> 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >> >> My initial goals are >> 1) Hold 3 people >> 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >> 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >> 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator >> arm and tooling >> 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >> >> Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to >> overcome? What complications am I not considering? >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 8 22:42:50 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 19:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1397011370.9033.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >Vance Bradley wrote: > >He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > >Sent from my iPhone > > >On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > > >Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >> >> >>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >> >> >> >>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >> >>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>Thanks, >>>Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>> >>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>Vance >>> >>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>> >>> >>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>Alan James wrote: >>>> >>>>Scott, >>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> >>>>From: swaters >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>> >>>> >>>>My initial goals are >>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>> >>>> >>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Apr 8 23:05:08 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 23:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: The $125k was several years ago, don't remember just when. In current dollars it would be somewhat higher. Jim In a message dated 4/8/2014 9:43:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 8 23:09:19 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 22:09:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <2m8jjw7ia6k8shhiq5ib78xb.1397012707019@email.android.com> I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 06:55:05 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 03:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5prj8ubx44do45gmhnorcedu.1396998531634@email.android.com> References: <5prj8ubx44do45gmhnorcedu.1396998531634@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397040905.45404.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Scott, G.L., Section 4, Design Loads, Table 4.1 says that for your designated depth, the collapse diving pressure divided by your nominal diving depth, has to be more than 1.73, & your test diving pressure has to be more than or equal to 1.2 x your nominal diving?pressure. So for a maximum operating depth of 1000 meters, build to a crush depth of at least 1,730 meters & test to a minimum of 1200 meters. In table 4.2 it is a bit confusing, but I am reading it as saying the view ports are to be tested to 1.5 x your nominal dive depth.? Re CAD programs; I bought Rhino 5, Orca, (which is a marine design plug-in for Rhino 5) & scan & solve. Scan & solve is a basic FEA plug-in for Rhino. I had advice from a qualified person in the submersible design field before purchasing. You can get in the ball park with the Scan & Solve FEA & then hand the design on to a qualified?person with a more powerful program for refinement. I looked at Solid Works, but it was very complex & expensive & if you aren't going to use it 40 hours a week you are gong to struggle.? It would be a really good move for you, buying a CAD program.? I also purchased a course on Rhino from Infinite Skills & in hindsight think that was a smart thing to do. All the best with the new project. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD? 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Apr 9 07:06:34 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 12:06:34 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <2m8jjw7ia6k8shhiq5ib78xb.1397012707019@email.android.com> References: <2m8jjw7ia6k8shhiq5ib78xb.1397012707019@email.android.com> Message-ID: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: > I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built > my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired > out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a > comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs > is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for > acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional > build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 > feet. > Hank > On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr < > spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote: > Wow! $125K for 2500 - 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom > value! > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr > wrote: > > Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am > sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) > depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform > them). > > I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a > better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be > looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major > issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ > Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: > > Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? > Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my > head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD > files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off > of? > I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall > psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like > sonar and manipulator arms and things. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? > Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi > capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > *From:* swaters > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what > I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of > difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to > be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to > overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular(c) Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 08:42:52 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 05:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: <2m8jjw7ia6k8shhiq5ib78xb.1397012707019@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397047372.86328.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different.? I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James ? On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >hank pronk wrote: > >I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? >Hank >On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > >Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? > > > >On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > >$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Vance Bradley wrote: >> >>He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >> >>On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >> >>Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >>> >>> >>>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >>> >>>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>> >>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>> >>>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>>Vance >>>> >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>Alan James wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Scott, >>>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>>Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>From: swaters >>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>My initial goals are >>>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 09:13:48 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 06:13:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <20140409061348.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.049972d573.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 9 09:26:06 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 09:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <5535b.6948df6f.4076a46e@aol.com> That $125,000 figure is now about $170,000 in today's dollars. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 7:46:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 09:37:01 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 06:37:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <20140409063701.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.acdf6bf3de.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 9 10:06:51 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 10:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <570b4.c84706.4076adfb@aol.com> Scott, Putting together a really cool shop is about as much fun as building a sub. And you can't let a facility like that go to waste. Roll on! Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 8:38:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland <_jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com_ (mailto:jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com) > wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 10:17:53 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:17:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <9ktlbvyta85uold5it1w99r8.1397053059396@email.android.com> Haha! Agreed. Thanks Jim Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJimToddPsub at aol.com wrote:Scott, Putting together a really cool shop is about as much fun as building a sub. And you can't let a facility like that go to waste.? Roll on! Jim ? In a message dated 4/9/2014 8:38:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision ? Thanks, Scott Waters ? ? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. ? http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James ? On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ? 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 10:28:00 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409063701.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.acdf6bf3de.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397053680.58308.YahooMailBasic@web140901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I was going to caution you about the price as well but it sounds like you already have the shop financed. Keep in mind that Karl Stanley had numerous donations and did not self fund ALL the tools, material, and manpower necessary to build IDABEL. When someone states "it cost me $X" that doesn't necessarily translate to what it will cost someone else. Again, I think fabrication is only part of the financials you have to think about. Over time I suspect regular use of the sub in the depths it is designed for is going to cost factors more than the cost of the vessel itself. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/9/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 9:37 AM The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision ? Thanks, Scott Waters ? From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 10:46:53 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:46:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <921yhit3nnpwwi5ipht0nfhw.1397054585807@email.android.com> Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 12:36:42 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 04:36:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409061348.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.049972d573.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409061348.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.049972d573.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <7639B807-073A-49F2-899B-3BF60D9668F5@yahoo.com> Wow, that student version of Rhino is cheap. You could buy that for now & get the Orca & scan & solve later on when you are profficient with Rhino. I bought all 3 programs through a local distributor. Jay Jeffries, who used to be on Psubs, sells Rhino & Orca. He is a Naval architect, marine engineer, marine surveyor, nuclear technician etc. Someone may know his contact details. I lost contact. They offer a free evaluation version on the site you linked to, but it won't mean a lot unless you buy a good instruction series or go to tech. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/04/2014, at 1:13 am, wrote: > > I believe I can get a student license in these. My wife Katy (who does all the design work for me on the Plasma robot in our shop) is a college student, so that might help a lot. > Are these the right links to get the CADs? > Rhino 5: http://www.rhino3d.com/sales/north-america/United_States > Scan&Solve http://www.intact-solutions.com/store/ > Orca http://www.orca3d.com/Orca3dJ/index.php/buy > > I am still in my research phase of this project and will be in the design phase for a few years. I believe getting good at CAD is then next step for me along with research. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: Alan James > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:55 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Hi Scott, > G.L., Section 4, Design Loads, Table 4.1 says that for your designated depth, the collapse diving pressure divided by your nominal diving depth, has to be more than 1.73, & your test diving pressure has to be more than or equal to 1.2 x your nominal diving pressure. > So for a maximum operating depth of 1000 meters, build to a crush depth of at least 1,730 meters & test to a minimum of 1200 meters. In table 4.2 it is a bit confusing, but I am reading it as saying the view ports are to > be tested to 1.5 x your nominal dive depth. > Re CAD programs; I bought Rhino 5, Orca, (which is a marine design plug-in for Rhino 5) & scan & solve. > Scan & solve is a basic FEA plug-in for Rhino. I had advice from a qualified person in the submersible design > field before purchasing. You can get in the ball park with the Scan & Solve FEA & then hand the design on to a qualified person with a more powerful program for refinement. I looked at Solid Works, but it was very complex > & expensive & if you aren't going to use it 40 hours a week you are gong to struggle. > It would be a really good move for you, buying a CAD program. > I also purchased a course on Rhino from Infinite Skills & in hindsight think that was a smart thing to do. > All the best with the new project. > Alan > > > > From: swaters > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > From: swaters > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 12:54:22 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 04:54:22 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems Message-ID: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. They aren't going in to my Spam. I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs problem? Alan Sent from my iPad From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 13:28:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 17:28 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5535b.6948df6f.4076a46e@aol.com> References: <5535b.6948df6f.4076a46e@aol.com> Message-ID: <1WXwIW-0eldYW0@fwd03.t-online.de> Still cheap.. may calculate the acrylic first. Will be the biggest single price item. And not worry about the cost. If you later have to double the figures.. so what.. I calculate 6 years and need 12. But it match the cost figure per year - was exact double the money as expected.. The last offer I saw for a commercial 1000m for two was over 1 Million and that was 20 years ago.. If you planing that long 7 years you cn start to collect useful hadware just now. A CO2 meter for 50 bucks here , 20 highpressure vale in good condition cheap there. About the pressure tank: They are nearly free of cost and huge: Atlantic ocean, Pacific ocean.. just the money to tow the boat out. vbr Carsten schrieb: That $125,000 figure is now about $170,000 in today's dollars. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 7:46:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500  3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 13:33:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 17:33 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409063701.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.acdf6bf3de.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409063701.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.acdf6bf3de.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1WXwNE-2PGo1g0@fwd08.t-online.de> Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." schrieb: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500  3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 13:33:48 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <921yhit3nnpwwi5ipht0nfhw.1397054585807@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397064828.79349.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce.

As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative."


Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 14:05:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 18:05 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397064828.79349.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397064828.79349.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1WXwsC-0NOWzA0@fwd28.t-online.de> Scott Rhino is mostly a modeller for nices shapes and surfaces - not a real CAD programm. Rinoi is nice if you like to design something organic. Like the exterior of a motoryacht. For a submarine use a 2D or 3D Autocad, Megacad or simillar or Inventor if you like to go 3D. I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. vbr Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Scott, For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce. As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative." Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 2:46:53 PM Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 14:07:27 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 11:07:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <20140409110727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.775d3c204b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 14:20:24 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409110727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.775d3c204b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397067624.33476.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Carsten,

Yes correct, I forgot to mention that I also use the "plug in" Orca which is marine specific.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 14:20:49 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 11:20:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Message-ID: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:32:04 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 14:32:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> I like ghat idea Scott! We should have PSUBS instructables library. I vote for a manipulator, because you happen to have that nice XY cutting table on hand and it seems a lot of the parts I've seen for manipulators are made that way. As a generic contribution of my own, I'll offer up the recent 3D printed scrubber, and I'm currently working on a super-simple way to drop thrusters - but that one isn't ready for the covers to come off just yet. Best, Alec > On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:20 PM, wrote: > > So here is some out of the box thinking... > > If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be? You can have more than one answer. > > Still being in the research phase of a new submarine project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I should do something else like make certain parts or kits available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, or some kind of design for something that is lacking in psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes me sick. > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 15:01:07 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:01:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Absolutely, viable PSUB manipulator designs that can easily be shared and continuously improved with group input. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Private wrote: > I like ghat idea Scott! We should have PSUBS instructables library. > > I vote for a manipulator, because you happen to have that nice XY cutting table on hand and it seems a lot of the parts I've seen for manipulators are made that way. > > As a generic contribution of my own, I'll offer up the recent 3D printed scrubber, and I'm currently working on a super-simple way to drop thrusters - but that one isn't ready for the covers to come off just yet. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:20 PM, wrote: > >> So here is some out of the box thinking... >> >> If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be? You can have more than one answer. >> >> Still being in the research phase of a new submarine project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I should do something else like make certain parts or kits available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, or some kind of design for something that is lacking in psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes me sick. >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 15:16:56 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:16:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1WXwsC-0NOWzA0@fwd28.t-online.de> References: <1397064828.79349.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1WXwsC-0NOWzA0@fwd28.t-online.de> Message-ID: Scott / Carsten, >> I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. See the link. Orca is a marine design program plug in for Rhino. http://www.orca3d.com/Orca3dJ/ Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/04/2014, at 6:05 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: > > Scott Rhino is mostly a modeller for nices shapes and surfaces - not a real CAD programm. > Rinoi is nice if you like to design something organic. Like the exterior of a motoryacht. > For a submarine use a 2D or 3D Autocad, Megacad or simillar or Inventor if you like to go 3D. > I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. > > vbr Carsten > > "Joe Perkel" schrieb: > Scott, > > For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce. > > As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative." > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: swaters ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 2:46:53 PM > > Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 9 15:24:57 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software Message-ID: <8e8b6.12a4eaba.4076f888@aol.com> Changing the thread title: Scott, I bought TurboCAD Pro Platinum 18 with two training CDs. http://www.imsidesign.com/ It seems to be a great program with full volumetric and parametric capabilities (important). I think Steve McQueen uses it. Besides all the features, I chose it because of the huge discount for not being the very latest release. A new release comes out at least once per year. The version updates are reasonable, but it's not at all necessary to get each one as they're released. I didn't buy AutoCAD because of the high cost, however with the eligibility to get the educational version that consideration might disappear. I've just told all I know on the subject, so I'm going to leave it to others to expound on it. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 2:17:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com writes: Scott / Carsten, >> I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. See the link. Orca is a marine design program plug in for Rhino. http://www.orca3d.com/Orca3dJ/ Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2014, at 6:05 am, "Carsten Standfu? " <_MerlinSub at t-online.de_ (mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de) > wrote: Scott Rhino is mostly a modeller for nices shapes and surfaces - not a real CAD programm. Rinoi is nice if you like to design something organic. Like the exterior of a motoryacht. For a submarine use a 2D or 3D Autocad, Megacad or simillar or Inventor if you like to go 3D. I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. vbr Carsten "Joe Perkel" <_josephperkel at yahoo.com_ (mailto:josephperkel at yahoo.com) > schrieb: Scott, For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce. As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative." Joe_ Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad_ (http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS) ____________________________________ From: swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 2:46:53 PM Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles = _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 15:31:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 19:31 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure tight winch as attachment to my sub. "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Absolutely, viable PSUB manipulator designs that can easily be shared and continuously improved with group input. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Private wrote: I like ghat idea Scott! We should have PSUBS instructables library. I vote for a manipulator, because you happen to have that nice XY cutting table on hand and it seems a lot of the parts I've seen for manipulators are made that way. As a generic contribution of my own, I'll offer up the recent 3D printed scrubber, and I'm currently working on a super-simple way to drop thrusters - but that one isn't ready for the covers to come off just yet. Best, Alec On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:20 PM, wrote: So here is some out of the box thinking... If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be? You can have more than one answer. Still being in the research phase of a new submarine project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I should do something else like make certain parts or kits available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, or some kind of design for something that is lacking in psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes me sick. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 15:32:59 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 12:32:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software Message-ID: <20140409123259.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74897c8c42.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 16:04:27 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 Message-ID: <1397073867.23652.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-)?? I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next.? That is why I have a fleet of subs.? If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K?.? Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget.? All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow.? I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:08:58 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:08:58 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software In-Reply-To: <20140409123259.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74897c8c42.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409123259.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74897c8c42.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <9BB8BE26-5ED9-438A-B695-5641E1FB0521@yahoo.com> Scott, get as much information on it as you can before purchasing. The initial cost is negligible compared with the hours you spend learning it. It would be a bummer spending hundreds of hours learning a program & finding you could have purchased something more relevant. I looked at Solid Works & went to a 3 hr seminar on updates from 2012 to 2013. The program was so huge, it scared me off. It would have been ok if I were intending to use it 40 hrs a week, but for just designing subs, I would have got totally overwhelmed. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/04/2014, at 7:32 am, wrote: > > Haha. I appreciate the info. I feel like last time this discussion was kind of like this with no real conclusion and I was very confused as what to do, me being a first timer to CAD. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software > From: JimToddPsub at aol.com > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 12:24 pm > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Changing the thread title: > Scott, > > I bought TurboCAD Pro Platinum 18 with two training CDs. http://www.imsidesign.com/ > It seems to be a great program with full volumetric and parametric capabilities (important). I think Steve McQueen uses it. Besides all the features, I chose it because of the huge discount for not being the very latest release. A new release comes out at least once per year. The version updates are reasonable, but it's not at all necessary to get each one as they're released. I didn't buy AutoCAD because of the high cost, however with the eligibility to get the educational version that consideration might disappear. > > I've just told all I know on the subject, so I'm going to leave it to others to expound on it. > > Jim > > In a message dated 4/9/2014 2:17:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com writes: > Scott / Carsten, > >> I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. > See the link. Orca is a marine design program plug in for Rhino. > http://www.orca3d.com/Orca3dJ/ > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 10/04/2014, at 6:05 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: >> >> Scott Rhino is mostly a modeller for nices shapes and surfaces - not a real CAD programm. >> Rinoi is nice if you like to design something organic. Like the exterior of a motoryacht. >> For a submarine use a 2D or 3D Autocad, Megacad or simillar or Inventor if you like to go 3D. >> I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> "Joe Perkel" schrieb: >> Scott, >> >> For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce. >> >> As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative." >> >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> From: swaters ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >> Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 2:46:53 PM >> >> Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > = > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:19:35 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:19:35 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> Message-ID: <996A4AAD-6F3D-4D64-8F00-005CAC0DE768@yahoo.com> Carsten, could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & attach the winch above the exit hatch. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/04/2014, at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: > > I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure tight winch as attachment to my sub. > > "Joe Perkel" schrieb: > Absolutely, viable PSUB manipulator designs that can easily be shared and continuously improved with group input. > > Joe > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Private wrote: >> >> I like ghat idea Scott! We should have PSUBS instructables library. >> >> I vote for a manipulator, because you happen to have that nice XY cutting table on hand and it seems a lot of the parts I've seen for manipulators are made that way. >> >> As a generic contribution of my own, I'll offer up the recent 3D printed scrubber, and I'm currently working on a super-simple way to drop thrusters - but that one isn't ready for the covers to come off just yet. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:20 PM, wrote: >>> >>> So here is some out of the box thinking... >>> >>> If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be? You can have more than one answer. >>> >>> Still being in the research phase of a new submarine project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I should do something else like make certain parts or kits available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, or some kind of design for something that is lacking in psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes me sick. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:40:50 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1397076050.45619.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Carsten,

Copy Nautile's Robin using a combination of borrowed ideas from off the shelf technology courtesy of companies like Seabotix and Video Ray.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:53:12 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 13:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397076792.92018.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Retire from PSUBS? Sub-building is only one challenge. How about taking on a leadership role...we need to move towards making PSUBS a non-profit organization, create a board of directors, fight for our rights when government tries to limit our hobby, and counter other organizations who try to label us as a potential problem. We need to get ABS and ASME as involved with us as they are with other organizations. We also need to expand the group, more members, more documented info, more online tools for design and operations, larger conventions with more participation. There's lots to do...retire from PSUBS??...that's not in my vocabulary. I think I'm going to get a couple people to nominate you for some work we need done. :) -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/9/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group To: "psubs" Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 2:20 PM So here is some out of the box thinking... ? If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be? You can have more than one answer. ? Still being in the research phase of a new submarine project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I should do something else like make certain parts or kits available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, or some kind of design for something that is lacking in psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes me sick. ? Thanks, Scott Waters ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 17:26:47 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:26:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Message-ID: <20140409142647.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.dd94d1a2d5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 17:55:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 21:55 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software In-Reply-To: <9BB8BE26-5ED9-438A-B695-5641E1FB0521@yahoo.com> References: <20140409123259.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74897c8c42.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <9BB8BE26-5ED9-438A-B695-5641E1FB0521@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1WY0Sb-37Fo2a0@fwd19.t-online.de> Scott waste not so much money for auxillaries like a pressure dock test or a cad programm. Use the Atlantic or Pacific and a paper and a pencil. Take the money safe into the sub.. vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Scott, get as much information on it as you can before purchasing. The initial cost is negligible compared with the hours you spend learning it. It would be a bummer spending hundreds of hours learning a program & finding you could have purchased something more relevant. I looked at Solid Works & went to a 3 hr seminar on updates from 2012 to 2013. The program was so huge, it scared me off. It would have been ok if I were intending to use it 40 hrs a week, but for just designing subs, I would have got totally overwhelmed. Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2014, at 7:32 am, wrote: Haha. I appreciate the info. I feel like last time this discussion was kind of like this with no real conclusion and I was very confused as what to do, me being a first timer to CAD. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software From: JimToddPsub at aol.com Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 12:24 pm To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Changing the thread title: Scott, I bought TurboCAD Pro Platinum 18 with two training CDs. http://www.imsidesign.com/ It seems to be a great program with full volumetric and parametric capabilities (important). I think Steve McQueen uses it. Besides all the features, I chose it because of the huge discount for not being the very latest release. A new release comes out at least once per year. The version updates are reasonable, but it's not at all necessary to get each one as they're released. I didn't buy AutoCAD because of the high cost, however with the eligibility to get the educational version that consideration might disappear. I've just told all I know on the subject, so I'm going to leave it to others to expound on it. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 2:17:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com writes: Scott / Carsten, >> I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. See the link. Orca is a marine design program plug in for Rhino. http://www.orca3d.com/Orca3dJ/ Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2014, at 6:05 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: Scott Rhino is mostly a modeller for nices shapes and surfaces - not a real CAD programm. Rinoi is nice if you like to design something organic. Like the exterior of a motoryacht. For a submarine use a 2D or 3D Autocad, Megacad or simillar or Inventor if you like to go 3D. I am not sure if Rino can give figures like center of graphity, of bouanvy, weights, areas and so on. vbr Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Scott, For CAD I must of course recommend what I use, Rhino3d with Flamingo NXT renderer. I have not seen nicer renderings for marine designs than this combination can produce. As for inspiration, think "out of the box," look for it in odd places. Bigger need not be necessarily better, but "inspired," "imaginative." Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 2:46:53 PM Very true. I am still in the research phase and will put together a full spreadsheet. I do the same thing when I build new stores. It is possible to find the project is not feasable and move on to the next idea too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles = _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanceind at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 17:57:13 2014 From: lanceind at gmail.com (Daniel Lance Lance) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 17:57:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409110727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.775d3c204b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409110727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.775d3c204b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Scott, A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . Just my two cents, Dan Lance On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > Thanks Carsten for the encouragement > Thanks Alan for all the CAD info > > -Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: "Carsten Standfu? " > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible > to reach. > > "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is > hard.." > > > > schrieb: > > The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process > of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 > crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every > tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 > back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one > day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about > submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how > to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I > had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our > family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to > build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is > the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I > compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator > and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level > and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are > capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked > together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with > the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: hank pronk > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott > wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building > Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. > (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. > I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build > a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic > assessment of your abilities we can all do it. > Hank > On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Scott, > Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, > your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. > > http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional > This is not too difficult to use. > Regards > James > > > On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: > > I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built > my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired > out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a > comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs > is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for > acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional > build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 > feet. > Hank > On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr < > spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote: > Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom > value! > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr > wrote: > > Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am > sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) > depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform > them). > > I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a > better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be > looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major > issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ > Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: > > Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? > Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my > head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD > files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off > of? > I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall > psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like > sonar and manipulator arms and things. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? > Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi > capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > *From:* swaters > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what > I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of > difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to > be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to > overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 18:00:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 22:00 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <996A4AAD-6F3D-4D64-8F00-005CAC0DE768@yahoo.com> References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> <996A4AAD-6F3D-4D64-8F00-005CAC0DE768@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1WY0Xy-01k4Dg0@fwd08.t-online.de> No should start from the sail. The diver chamber need to much compress gases to be useful just for a lock out with the ROV. The hole idea of The ROV is to safe time, gas and decompression time and use it for a first lock out before we decide to open the lock out chamber for the divers - and the saturation time starts to run. Must be good for 1000 feet. cable can be short say 300 feet . vrb Carsten Carsten, could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & attach the winch above the exit hatch. Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2014, at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure tight winch as attachment to my sub. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Apr 9 18:04:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 09 Apr 2014 22:04 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: References: <20140409110727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.775d3c204b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1WY0bo-3zejwG0@fwd15.t-online.de> Or go for easier and cheaper steel - more wall thickness - more foam - proably less cost -more displacement. Its worth to think about a full acrylic sub.. Make a matrix. 01 mild steel sub, 02 high tensile steel sub, 03 full acrlic sub etc.. compare cost, weight, hours and so on.. vbr carsten "Daniel Lance Lance" schrieb: Scott, A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . Just my two cents, Dan Lance On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: Thanks Carsten for the encouragement Thanks Alan for all the CAD info -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: "Carsten Standfu? " Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." schrieb: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 18:06:27 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 15:06:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <20140409150627.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.788d7c66d8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 18:12:23 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409150627.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.788d7c66d8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409150627.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.788d7c66d8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397081543.69829.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer.? Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. Pay for a design in material that is workable On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. -Scott Waters? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >From: Daniel Lance Lance >Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Scott, >?A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . >Just my two cents, >Dan Lance > > > >On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > >Thanks Carsten for the encouragement >>Thanks Alan for all the CAD info >> >>-Scott Waters? >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>> >>>From: "Carsten Standfu? " >>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am >>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>>Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to?reach. >>> >>>"We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.."? >>> >>> >>> >>> schrieb: >>>The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>Scott Waters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>> >>>>From: hank pronk >>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am >>>> >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different.? I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? >>>>>I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? >>>>>Hank >>>>>On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Scott, >>>>>Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. >>>>> >>>>>http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional >>>>> >>>>>This is not too difficult to use. >>>>>Regards >>>>>James >>>>> >>>>>? >>>>>On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: >>>>> >>>>>I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>> >>>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? >>>>>>Hank >>>>>>On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>>>>>>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>>>>>>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>>>>>>>Vance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>Alan James wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>>>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>>>>>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>>>>>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>>>>>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>>>>>>>Alan >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>From: swaters >>>>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>>>>>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>>>>>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>>>>>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>>>>>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>My initial goals are >>>>>>>>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>>>>>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>>>>>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>>>>>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>>>>>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>? >>> >>>________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Wed Apr 9 18:20:54 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:20:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 In-Reply-To: <1397073867.23652.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397073867.23652.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B636C2C-6C59-4C4C-856A-A7BB33086AB7@AOL.com> Are you kidding. It has to be DEEP-WATERS or something, right? Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-) > I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next. That is why I have a fleet of subs. If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K . Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget. All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow. > I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 9 18:28:50 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <96690.4b868604.407723a2@aol.com> Regarding acrylic domes and flat ports, what effect does calendar age and number of dive cycles have on life span especially for a deep diver such as this? It seems that this as well as other overhaul costs/schedule would need to be factored into the project. I've wondered about the life span of the dome on Idabel. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 5:12:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Scott, Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer. Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. Pay for a design in material that is workable On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: Daniel Lance Lance <_lanceind at gmail.com_ (mailto:lanceind at gmail.com) > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Scott, A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . Just my two cents, Dan Lance On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Thanks Carsten for the encouragement Thanks Alan for all the CAD info -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: "Carsten Standfu? " <_MerlinSub at t-online.de_ (mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de) > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > schrieb: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland <_jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com_ (mailto:jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com) > wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca) > wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr <_spiritofcalypso at gmail.com_ (mailto:spiritofcalypso at gmail.com) > wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley <_VBra676539 at AOL.com_ (mailto:VBra676539 at AOL.com) > wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters <_swaters at waters-ks.com_ (mailto:swaters at waters-ks.com) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? 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URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 18:29:37 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 15:29:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 18:31:03 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 15:31:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 Message-ID: <20140409153103.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b45b4c5b3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:36:28 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <20140409142647.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.dd94d1a2d5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409142647.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.dd94d1a2d5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397082988.13343.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Jon, I didn't receive your post either & wasn't in spam. Glad to hear you are positive about continuing on in Psubs. You are doing an awesome job, it's much appreciated. >>> ? ?If someone on psubs could come up with something to help the whole group what would it be?? ? ? ?I would suggest bringing the K250 or K350 plans in to the 21st century. Have CAD files with 3D drawings, & files for sending to machine shops. Update the? design to include saddle tanks & whatever to improve them. Have components that are currently available, with links to suppliers. Alternatively adopt the Sea Urchin (I think) that Phil had mused about putting out as a kit.? The group revolves a lot around these boats & from following other peoples progress building them, it appears that life could be made a lot easier for future members. Alan ________________________________ From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Jon, I'll plan the 2015 psubs convention in June :) I would have been glad to plan one in 2014, I am just afraid with the massive?expansion and store remodels we have been doing I would have done a crappy job. I'll contact you off list of some other things I would be happy to do. Thanks, Scott Waters ? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group >From: Jon Wallace >Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 1:53 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Retire from PSUBS? Sub-building is only one challenge. How about taking on a leadership role...we need to move towards making PSUBS a non-profit organization, create a board of directors, fight for our rights when government tries to limit our hobby, and counter other organizations who try to label us as a potential problem. We need to get ABS and ASME as involved with us as they are with other organizations. We also need to expand the group, more members, more documented info, more online tools for design and operations, larger conventions with more participation. There's lots to do...retire from PSUBS??...that's not in my vocabulary. I think I'm going to get a couple people to nominate you for some work we need done. :) > > >-------------------------------------------- >On Wed, 4/9/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group >To: "psubs" >Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 2:20 PM > >So >here is some out of the box thinking... >? >If someone on psubs could come up with something to >help the whole group what would it be? You can have more >than one answer. >? >Still being in the research phase of a new submarine >project, maybe my whole goal is wrong. Maybe rather than >building a sub to push the envelope of our group, maybe I >should do something else like make certain parts or kits >available, or design a solution for a psubs manipulator arm, >or some kind of design for something that is lacking in >psubs. I am still figuring out what to do, but the idea of >simply retiring from psubs now that I finished my sub makes >me sick. >? >Thanks, >Scott Waters >? > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 18:42:18 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397083338.66003.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Karl mentioned one time how old his dome is and if I recall it is over 20yrs old. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:30:37 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >From: hank pronk >Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Scott, >Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer.? Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. >Pay for a design in material that is workable >On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: > > >Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. >-Scott Waters? > >-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>From: Daniel Lance Lance >>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> >>Scott, >>?A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . >>Just my two cents, >>Dan Lance >> >> >> >>On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >> >> >>>Thanks Carsten for the encouragement >>>Thanks Alan for all the CAD info >>> >>>-Scott Waters? >>> >>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>> >>>>From: "Carsten Standfu? " >>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am >>>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to?reach. >>>> >>>>"We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.."? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> schrieb: >>>> >>>>>The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision >>>>> >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>> >>>>>From: hank pronk >>>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am >>>>> >>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different.? I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? >>>>>>I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? >>>>>>Hank >>>>>>On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional >>>>>> >>>>>>This is not too difficult to use. >>>>>>Regards >>>>>>James >>>>>> >>>>>>? >>>>>>On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? >>>>>>>Hank >>>>>>>On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>>>>>>>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>>>>>>>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>>>>>>>>Vance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>>Alan James wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>>>>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>>>>>>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>>>>>>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>>>>>>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>>>>>>>>Alan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>From: swaters >>>>>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>>>>>>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>>>>>>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>>>>>>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>>>>>>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>My initial goals are >>>>>>>>>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>>>>>>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>>>>>>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>>>>>>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>>>>>>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>? >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>________________________________ >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:53:02 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 15:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water.? That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. Alan ________________________________ From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. ? Thanks, Scott Waters ? -------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >From: hank pronk >Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > >Scott, >Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer.? Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. >Pay for a design in material that is workable >On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: > > >Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. >-Scott Waters? >? >-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>From: Daniel Lance Lance >>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> >>Scott, >>?A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . >>Just my two cents, >>Dan Lance >> >> >> >>On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >> >> >>>Thanks Carsten for the encouragement >>>Thanks Alan for all the CAD info >>>? >>>-Scott Waters? >>>? >>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>> >>>>From: "Carsten Standfu? " >>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am >>>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to?reach. >>>> >>>>"We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.."? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> schrieb: >>>> >>>>>The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>> >>>>>From: hank pronk >>>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am >>>>> >>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different.? I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? >>>>>>I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? >>>>>>Hank >>>>>>On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. >>>>>>? >>>>>>http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional >>>>>> >>>>>>This is not too difficult to use. >>>>>>Regards >>>>>>James >>>>>> >>>>>>? >>>>>>On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? >>>>>>>Hank >>>>>>>On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>>>>>>>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>>>>>>>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>>>>>>>>Vance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>>Alan James wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>>>>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>>>>>>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>>>>>>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>>>>>>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>>>>>>>>Alan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>From: swaters >>>>>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>>>>>>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>>>>>>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>>>>>>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>>>>>>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>My initial goals are >>>>>>>>>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>>>>>>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>>>>>>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>>>>>>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>>>>>>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>? _______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanceind at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 19:14:57 2014 From: lanceind at gmail.com (Daniel Lance Lance) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:14:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397081543.69829.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20140409150627.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.788d7c66d8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397081543.69829.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe Paul Morehouse could weigh in on this . On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:12 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Scott, > Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer. Someone who does this > for a living, explore all the options. > Pay for a design in material that is workable > On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" < > swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote: > Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. > -Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: Daniel Lance Lance > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Scott, > A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure > hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working > with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I > am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built > from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me > correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The > other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong > please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains > you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from > scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the > learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required > to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it > can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your > inheritance . > Just my two cents, > Dan Lance > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > > Thanks Carsten for the encouragement > Thanks Alan for all the CAD info > > -Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: "Carsten Standfu? " > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible > to reach. > > "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is > hard.." > > > > schrieb: > > The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every > process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a > 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about > every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my > K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of > one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about > submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how > to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I > had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our > family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to > build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is > the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I > compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator > and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level > and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are > capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked > together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with > the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: hank pronk > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott > wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building > Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. > (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. > I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build > a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic > assessment of your abilities we can all do it. > Hank > On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Scott, > Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, > your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. > > http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional > This is not too difficult to use. > Regards > James > > > On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: > > I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built > my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired > out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a > comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs > is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for > acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional > build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 > feet. > Hank > On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr < > spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote: > Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom > value! > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr > wrote: > > Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am > sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) > depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform > them). > > I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a > better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be > looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major > issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ > Douglas S. > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: > > Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? > Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my > head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD > files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off > of? > I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall > psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like > sonar and manipulator arms and things. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: > > So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? > Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi > capability? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Alan James wrote: > Scott, > in general people design their boats with a crush depth of > twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x > there proposed maximum operating depth. > So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. > Alan > > *From:* swaters > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what > I am thinking. > 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of > difficulty as it was to build my first submarine > 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to > be improved on in design and ability. > 3) Learn to use CAD > 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete > > My initial goals are > 1) Hold 3 people > 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less > 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) > 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm > and tooling > 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front > > Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to > overcome? What complications am I not considering? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Wed Apr 9 19:22:04 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:22:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> As a comparison. The 6' sphere Perry used for the 3000' ARMS bells and the PC-16 were .75" wall HY-100. More expensive, but 40%(ish) lighter. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: > > Scott, > I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. > That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. > Alan > > From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. > On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: hank pronk > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Scott, > Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer. Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. > Pay for a design in material that is workable > On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: > Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. > -Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: Daniel Lance Lance > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Scott, > A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . > Just my two cents, > Dan Lance > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > Thanks Carsten for the encouragement > Thanks Alan for all the CAD info > > -Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: "Carsten Standfu? " > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. > > "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." > > > > schrieb: > The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > From: hank pronk > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. > I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. > Hank > On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Scott, > Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. > > http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional > This is not too difficult to use. > Regards > James > > > On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: > I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. > Hank > On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: > $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Vance Bradley wrote: > He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >> Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). >> >> I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >> Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? >> Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? >> I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Vance Bradley wrote: >> Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>> >>> So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> Alan James wrote: >>> Scott, >>> in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>> twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>> there proposed maximum operating depth. >>> So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>> Alan >>> >>> From: swaters >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>> >>> I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>> 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>> 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>> 3) Learn to use CAD >>> 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>> >>> My initial goals are >>> 1) Hold 3 people >>> 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>> 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>> 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>> 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>> >>> Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 19:39:09 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1397086749.77625.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Quick math, that sphere is 1,300 lbs buoyant, not bad.? How likely is it a sphere that thick can be rolled to within 1/8 in.? Probably can be done. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:22:26 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: As a comparison. The 6' sphere Perry used for the 3000' ARMS bells and the PC-16 were .75" wall HY-100. More expensive, but 40%(ish) lighter.? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: Scott, >I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water.? >That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > > >Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. >On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. > >Thanks, >Scott Waters > >-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>From: hank pronk >>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> >>Scott, >>Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer.? Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. >>Pay for a design in material that is workable >>On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: >> >> >>Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. >>-Scott Waters? >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>From: Daniel Lance Lance >>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> >>> >>>Scott, >>>?A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . >>>Just my two cents, >>>Dan Lance >>> >>> >>> >>>On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Thanks Carsten for the encouragement >>>>Thanks Alan for all the CAD info >>>> >>>>-Scott Waters? >>>> >>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>> >>>>>From: "Carsten Standfu? " >>>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am >>>>>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to?reach. >>>>> >>>>>"We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.."? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> schrieb: >>>>> >>>>>>The?good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal?lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we?could be producing?ideas and inventions?right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>>> >>>>>>From: hank pronk >>>>>>Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am >>>>>> >>>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.? The two subs are totally different.? I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own? pressure vessel fab shop.? (maybe)? Otherwise it just?isn't realistic for that cost.?? >>>>>>>I do not mean to imply that?Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.? As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.? >>>>>>>Hank >>>>>>>On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>>Have a look at this.?As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.? Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is not too difficult to use. >>>>>>>Regards >>>>>>>James >>>>>>> >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000.? >>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>hank pronk wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.? Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.? If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.? >>>>>>>>Hank >>>>>>>>On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value!? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. >>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S.? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure?? >>>>>>>>>>>Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of?? >>>>>>>>>>>I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Vance Bradley wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). >>>>>>>>>>>Vance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? >>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>>>Alan James wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Scott, >>>>>>>>>>>>in general people design their boats with a crush depth of >>>>>>>>>>>>twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x >>>>>>>>>>>>there proposed maximum operating depth. >>>>>>>>>>>>So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. >>>>>>>>>>>>Alan >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>From: swaters >>>>>>>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. >>>>>>>>>>>>1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine >>>>>>>>>>>>2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. >>>>>>>>>>>>3) Learn to use CAD? >>>>>>>>>>>>4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>My initial goals are >>>>>>>>>>>>1) Hold 3 people >>>>>>>>>>>>2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less >>>>>>>>>>>>3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) >>>>>>>>>>>>4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling >>>>>>>>>>>>5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>Scott Waters >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>? >>>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 19:41:17 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] welding a sphere Message-ID: <1397086877.4195.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan, How long would it take to weld two 1.23in thick heads together. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 19:45:06 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:45:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <1WY0Xy-01k4Dg0@fwd08.t-online.de> References: <20140409112049.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.79a2ce9740.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <892458D3-8AF1-4891-8880-AA1147EDBDC2@gmail.com> <1WXyDD-0ikqWW0@fwd02.t-online.de> <996A4AAD-6F3D-4D64-8F00-005CAC0DE768@yahoo.com> <1WY0Xy-01k4Dg0@fwd08.t-online.de> Message-ID: Scott, I think a manipulator arm would be a great kit and if it materializes I will be one of your first kit buyers. What kind of muscle would you use (electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc.)? ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:00 PM, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: > No should start from the sail. > The diver chamber need to much compress gases to be useful just for a lock > out with the ROV. > The hole idea of The ROV is to safe time, gas and decompression time and > use it for a first lock > out before we decide to open the lock out chamber for the divers - and the > saturation time starts to run. > > Must be good for 1000 feet. cable can be short say 300 feet . > > vrb Carsten > > > Carsten, > could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? > Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & > attach the winch above the exit hatch. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/04/2014 , at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " < > MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote: > > I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure > tight winch as attachment to my sub. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Wed Apr 9 20:18:45 2014 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 20:18:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CAD software In-Reply-To: <1WY0Sb-37Fo2a0@fwd19.t-online.de> References: <20140409123259.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74897c8c42.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <9BB8BE26-5ED9-438A-B695-5641E1FB0521@yahoo.com> <1WY0Sb-37Fo2a0@fwd19.t-online.de> Message-ID: <5345E365.1020808@ohiohills.com> I have a free one called Delftship. It used to be called FreeShip. So far, it's been difficult to use, but it does calculate all the usual buoyancy and balance numbers. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 20:41:41 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 19:41:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Message-ID: Douglas, Not quite sure yet. I will need to do more research.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneDouglas Suhr wrote:Scott, I think a manipulator arm would be a great kit and if it materializes I will be one of your first kit buyers. What kind of muscle would you use (electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc.)? ~ Douglas S. ? On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:00 PM, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: No should start from the sail. The diver chamber need to much compress gases to be useful just for a lock out with the ROV. The hole idea of The ROV is to safe time, gas and decompression time and use it for a first lock out before we decide to open the lock out chamber for the divers - and the saturation time starts to run. Must be good for 1000 feet.? cable can be short say 300 feet . vrb Carsten Carsten, could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & attach the winch above the exit hatch. Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2014, at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure tight winch as attachment to my sub.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Apr 9 21:16:53 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 21:16:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> Wow, big difference here...ABS calculator shows 2.5 inch thickness for 72inch sphere with maximum working pressure of 2578 psi utilizing the ABS/ASME recommended usage factor of .67 which takes into account material fatigue. I don't think the UnderPressure program considers usage factor. If you discount the usage factor then the ABS calculator comes up with 1.75 inch thickness with max working pressure of 2679 psi. A thickness of 1.5 inches provides 2303 psi, below your 2543 psi requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: > Scott, > I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. > That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere > in the ball park. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "swaters at waters-ks.com" > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on > a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with > HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 > feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. > On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find > things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am > going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive > and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Apr 9 21:19:50 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 21:19:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. Jon On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: > Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. > I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. > They aren't going in to my Spam. > I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs > problem? > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From mwidman at nc.rr.com Wed Apr 9 21:30:29 2014 From: mwidman at nc.rr.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 21:30:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 21:36:45 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 21:36:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: Mark, you came through for me. Jon, I got your first email as well as this one. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Mark wrote: > Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been > reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the > email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. > > Regards, > > Mark Widman > Director, GDSN & Data Quality > GS1 Global, USA > mark.widman at gs1.org > 910-638-5229 > > Sent from iPhone. > > > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my > yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is > filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't > need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, > I'll have to check. > > > > Jon > > > > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: > >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. > >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. > >> They aren't going in to my Spam. > >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs > >> problem? > >> Alan > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 21:38:54 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 21:38:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 In-Reply-To: <20140409153103.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b45b4c5b3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140409153103.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b45b4c5b3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Scott, Is your wife's enthusiasm contagious? If so I have a new friend for her to hang out with! :) Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:31 PM, wrote: > I haven't named it yet. haha. It may not have a name if the project estimation goes up past the $200,000 mark. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 > From: Vance Bradley > Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:20 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Are you kidding. It has to be DEEP-WATERS or something, right? > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-) >> I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next. That is why I have a fleet of subs. If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K . Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget. All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow. >> I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 21:49:16 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397094556.1150.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah me too. I posted a reply about exporting cad files. I saw Scott thanked Jon and myself for the reply but didn't see Jon's or my posts. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/9/14, Jon Wallace wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 6:19 PM It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either.? Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you?? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. Jon On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: > Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. > I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. > They aren't going in to my Spam. > I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs > problem? > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 22:08:58 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397095738.19217.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm a bit confused Jon, Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth of??5709 feet (2543 psi). You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The working pressure I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Wow, big difference here...ABS calculator shows 2.5 inch thickness for 72inch sphere with maximum working pressure of 2578 psi utilizing the ABS/ASME recommended usage factor of .67 which takes into account material fatigue. I don't think the UnderPressure program considers usage factor.? If you discount the usage factor then the ABS calculator comes up with 1.75 inch thickness with max working pressure of 2679 psi.? A thickness of 1.5 inches provides 2303 psi, below your 2543 psi requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: Scott, >I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water.? >That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > > > > >Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. >On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. >? >Thanks, >Scott Waters >? > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Apr 9 22:31:22 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 22:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems Message-ID: <9e032.74a02339.40775c7a@aol.com> Mark, I received it. Jim In a message dated 4/9/2014 8:30:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mwidman at nc.rr.com writes: Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 22:33:09 2014 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 14:33:09 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> Came thru to me Mark However I have the same problem I cannot get to see if the post has gone thru Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2014 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems Mark, you came through for me. Jon, I got your first email as well as this one. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Mark wrote: Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9658 (20140410) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 22:37:21 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 21:37:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 Message-ID: Might be. Haha. She's pretty cool. Always nice to have her in the shop helping me. She is also very good at using the plasma robot and programing design cut paths.? Thanks,? Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:Scott, Is your wife's enthusiasm contagious? If so I have a new friend for her to hang out with! :) Joe? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:31 PM, wrote: I haven't named it yet. haha. It may not have a name if the project estimation goes up?past the $200,000 mark. ? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 From: Vance Bradley Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:20 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Are you kidding. It has to be DEEP-WATERS or something, right? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-) I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next. That is why I have a fleet of subs. If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K . Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget. All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow. I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 22:46:47 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1397098007.58433.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Can you feed your plasma robot cad files ? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/9/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 7:37 PM Might be. Haha. She's pretty cool. Always nice to have her in the shop helping me. She is also very good at using the plasma robot and programing design cut paths.?Thanks,?Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Scott, Is your wife's enthusiasm contagious?If so I have a new friend for her to hang out with! :) Joe? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:31 PM, wrote: I haven't named it yet. haha. It may not have a name if the project estimation goes up?past the $200,000 mark. ? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 From: Vance Bradley Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:20 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Are you kidding. It has to be DEEP-WATERS or something, right? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-)?? I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next.? That is why I have a fleet of subs.? If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K?.? Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget.? All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow.? I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jonw at psubs.org Wed Apr 9 23:21:19 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 23:21:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397095738.19217.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> <1397095738.19217.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53460E2F.9030004@psubs.org> As far as I'm aware, ABS doesn't deal with crush depth only maximum working pressure which incorporates usage factors (n), in this case of n=.67. If n=1 could be considered "crush depth", then the calculator shows crush occurring at 2287 psi with 1.5 inch thick hemisphere and max working depth of 1532 psi with a usage factor of n=.67 which is right in the parameters that he is looking for. The problem with using n=1 as an indicator of crush depth, I believe, is that there's no way to guarantee it's an accurate representation of when the hull will fail because actual fabrication variables resulting in less than ideal geometric structures can lower the calculated result. When using ABS/ASME we should always be solving for max working pressure, not crush depth. So your observation is correct, and solving for a working depth of ~3000 feet results in a much thinner hemisphere. I didn't know what Scott was using for a safety factor so just plugged the numbers to get 2578 psi from the ABS calculator, but that obviously is over-built for what Scott's intended use is. Using a thickness of 1.25 inches, ABS is showing max working pressure of 1268 psi or 2849 feet, just slightly less than his 3000 foot requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 10:08 PM, Alan James wrote: > I'm a bit confused Jon, > Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth of 5709 feet > (2543 psi). > You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The > working pressure > I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. > Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 23:33:44 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 22:33:44 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 Message-ID: Ummmm.... Katy says she isn't sure and would have to try it. She thinks it does, but it has to be in 2-D Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePete Niedermayr wrote: Can you feed your plasma robot cad files ? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/9/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 7:37 PM Might be. Haha. She's pretty cool. Always nice to have her in the shop helping me. She is also very good at using the plasma robot and programing design cut paths.?Thanks,?Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Scott, Is your wife's enthusiasm contagious?If so I have a new friend for her to hang out with! :) Joe? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:31 PM, wrote: I haven't named it yet. haha. It may not have a name if the project estimation goes up?past the $200,000 mark. ? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k3000 From: Vance Bradley Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:20 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Are you kidding. It has to be DEEP-WATERS or something, right? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:04 PM, hank pronk wrote: Scott, see how I named your new sub,,K3000 :-)?? I could not agree with you more, I spend so much time on sub projects that I get scared about what will I do next.? That is why I have a fleet of subs.? If you can afford 125K then you can afford 250K?.? Carsten is right, who cares if you go over budget.? All you need is wife that is on board and good cash flow.? I say go for it, I just wish I lived closer to your shop. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Apr 9 23:37:18 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 22:37:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <212ypuqgus2xknvjk358v1so.1397100993705@email.android.com> Jon,? I haven't thought as far as that yet. Mostly still seeing if this project is even feasable still. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace wrote: As far as I'm aware, ABS doesn't deal with crush depth only maximum working pressure which incorporates usage factors (n), in this case of n=.67.? If n=1 could be considered "crush depth", then the calculator shows crush occurring at 2287 psi with 1.5 inch thick hemisphere and max working depth of 1532 psi with a usage factor of n=.67 which is right in the parameters that he is looking for.? The problem with using n=1 as an indicator of crush depth, I believe, is that there's no way to guarantee it's an accurate representation of when the hull will fail because actual fabrication variables resulting in less than ideal geometric structures can lower the calculated result.? When using ABS/ASME we should always be solving for max working pressure, not crush depth. So your observation is correct, and solving for a working depth of ~3000 feet results in a much thinner hemisphere.? I didn't know what Scott was using for a safety factor so just plugged the numbers to get 2578 psi from the ABS calculator, but that obviously is over-built for what Scott's intended use is.? Using a thickness of 1.25 inches, ABS is showing max working pressure of 1268 psi or 2849 feet, just slightly less than his 3000 foot requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 10:08 PM, Alan James wrote: I'm a bit confused Jon, Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth of??5709 feet (2543 psi). You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The working pressure I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Wed Apr 9 23:45:29 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 21:45:29 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <534613D9.9020804@telus.net> Scott, my pressure hull optimization software project has been sitting idle on the back burner for some time now. Nevertheless, some of the modules work, so I ran your numbers through the spherical shell calculator. The results shown below are in compliance with the most recent ABS rules, with no additional safety factor added. I used your 6' dimension as the inner diameter, and incremented shell thickness 0.0001 m at a time until the desired working depth was reached. Executive summary: 0.0378 m (1.4882 in) for A516 gr 70, and 0.0208 m (0.8189 in) for HY-80. Details below: Let me know if you want to run additional scenarios. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jibiefjg.png Type: image/png Size: 70163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hibihdjg.png Type: image/png Size: 69536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 23:57:03 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 20:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <212ypuqgus2xknvjk358v1so.1397100993705@email.android.com> References: <212ypuqgus2xknvjk358v1so.1397100993705@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397102223.78180.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, just did a quick Google & these people make 1.5" segmented hemispheres 6ft in diameter. http://www.cmforming.com/tankheads-and-accessories.htm http://www.cmforming.com/pdfs/hemispherical-asme-code-type.pdf You may have to compromise depth to line up with what's available if there is a stock item somewhere. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Jon,? I haven't thought as far as that yet. Mostly still seeing if this project is even feasable still. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Jon Wallace wrote: As far as I'm aware, ABS doesn't deal with crush depth only maximum working pressure which incorporates usage factors (n), in this case of n=.67.? If n=1 could be considered "crush depth", then the calculator shows crush occurring at 2287 psi with 1.5 inch thick hemisphere and max working depth of 1532 psi with a usage factor of n=.67 which is right in the parameters that he is looking for.? The problem with using n=1 as an indicator of crush depth, I believe, is that there's no way to guarantee it's an accurate representation of when the hull will fail because actual fabrication variables resulting in less than ideal geometric structures can lower the calculated result.? When using ABS/ASME we should always be solving for max working pressure, not crush depth. So your observation is correct, and solving for a working depth of ~3000 feet results in a much thinner hemisphere.? I didn't know what Scott was using for a safety factor so just plugged the numbers to get 2578 psi from the ABS calculator, but that obviously is over-built for what Scott's intended use is.? Using a thickness of 1.25 inches, ABS is showing max working pressure of 1268 psi or 2849 feet, just slightly less than his 3000 foot requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 10:08 PM, Alan James wrote: I'm a bit confused Jon, >Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth of??5709 feet (2543 psi). >You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The working pressure >I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. >Alan > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 00:56:54 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 00:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5345F105.8030000@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D122906DA9ADD9-2094-463B2@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> Alvin's new hull could not be built to ABS specs due to the ridiculous standards required for such a pressure vessel. The hull is Navy certified and the rest of the boat is ABS and Navy combined. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Wow, big difference here...ABS calculator shows 2.5 inch thickness for 72inch sphere with maximum working pressure of 2578 psi utilizing the ABS/ASME recommended usage factor of .67 which takes into account material fatigue. I don't think the UnderPressure program considers usage factor. If you discount the usage factor then the ABS calculator comes up with 1.75 inch thickness with max working pressure of 2679 psi. A thickness of 1.5 inches provides 2303 psi, below your 2543 psi requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: Scott, I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. Alan From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 00:57:30 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 00:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D1229083457BF5-2094-463BF@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> Got it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 00:58:07 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 22:58:07 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <534613D9.9020804@telus.net> References: <534613D9.9020804@telus.net> Message-ID: <534624DF.3000104@telus.net> Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat. With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m before going negative. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: ihidfjgg.png Type: image/png Size: 73716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 01:06:21 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 01:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <1397086749.77625.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> <1397086749.77625.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D12291BEED6714-2094-464A8@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> Hank The spheres at Perry were not spun, but fabricated much as the DW hulls are done using pressed segments. In the thicker material, it is very difficult to hold a nominal thickness without going really heavy and then machining the result. Hank, is that figure for the .75" thickness or the 1.25"? Displacement is something like 7250# in seawater (6'OD). I would hope for a little better payload out of that than...what, less than 20%? Something like that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Quick math, that sphere is 1,300 lbs buoyant, not bad. How likely is it a sphere that thick can be rolled to within 1/8 in. Probably can be done. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:22:26 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: As a comparison. The 6' sphere Perry used for the 3000' ARMS bells and the PC-16 were .75" wall HY-100. More expensive, but 40%(ish) lighter. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: Scott, I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. Alan From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer. Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. Pay for a design in material that is workable On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: Daniel Lance Lance Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . Just my two cents, Dan Lance On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: Thanks Carsten for the encouragement Thanks Alan for all the CAD info -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: "Carsten Standfu? " Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." schrieb: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 01:20:41 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 23:20:41 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <8D12291BEED6714-2094-464A8@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> <1397086749.77625.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D12291BEED6714-2094-464A8@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <53462A29.6060705@telus.net> On 2014-04-09 23:06, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > Hank > > The spheres at Perry were not spun, but fabricated much as the DW > hulls are done using pressed segments. In the thicker material, it is > very difficult to hold a nominal thickness without going really heavy > and then machining the result. > > Hank, is that figure for the .75" thickness or the 1.25"? Displacement > is something like 7250# in seawater (6'OD). I would hope for a little > better payload out of that than...what, less than 20%? Something like > that. > > Vance Vance - according to ABS, I get a working depth of 1055.2 m for the 3/4" shell, and a payload of 17000 N, or over 3800 lbs. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cgebaceh.png Type: image/png Size: 74939 bytes Desc: not available URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Thu Apr 10 02:30:13 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 02:30:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <53462A29.6060705@telus.net> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> <1397086749.77625.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D12291BEED6714-2094-464A8@webmail-va016.sysops.aol.com> <53462A29.6060705@telus.net> Message-ID: <4DB21822-E2C5-4CCE-AEA5-63EC9AE087D4@AOL.com> Sean, 50% of displacement sounds pretty good. Idabel weighs 9000 pounds and has to have some foam. It would be cool to see something a ton lighter with more elbow room and even more depth capability with no syntactic. Not sure if it's possible, but with care, it might be close. All the external shell and tankage would have to be fiberglass or aluminum to keep the weight down, one supposes, but with modern batteries...who knows. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2014, at 1:20 AM, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > >> On 2014-04-09 23:06, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: >> Hank >> >> The spheres at Perry were not spun, but fabricated much as the DW hulls are done using pressed segments. In the thicker material, it is very difficult to hold a nominal thickness without going really heavy and then machining the result. >> >> Hank, is that figure for the .75" thickness or the 1.25"? Displacement is something like 7250# in seawater (6'OD). I would hope for a little better payload out of that than...what, less than 20%? Something like that. >> >> Vance > > Vance - according to ABS, I get a working depth of 1055.2 m for the 3/4" shell, and a payload of 17000 N, or over 3800 lbs. > > Sean > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Apr 10 04:18:07 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 09:18:07 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott\All I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. I think there is scope for several club type projects. Just off the top of my head. Club designed sub plans. Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub but kept super simple for the first time builder. Manipulator arm Re-designed hatch for K boats Single sideband UW radio O2 monitor I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of Franks saucer sub and get it finished. im sure he'd have liked to see it in the water. Anyway, just thinking aloud, Kind Regards James On 10 April 2014 01:41, swaters wrote: > Douglas, > Not quite sure yet. I will need to do more research. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Douglas Suhr wrote: > Scott, I think a manipulator arm would be a great kit and if it > materializes I will be one of your first kit buyers. What kind of muscle > would you use (electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc.)? ~ Douglas S. > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:00 PM, "Carsten Standfu? " > wrote: > >> No should start from the sail. >> The diver chamber need to much compress gases to be useful just for a >> lock out with the ROV. >> The hole idea of The ROV is to safe time, gas and decompression time and >> use it for a first lock >> out before we decide to open the lock out chamber for the divers - and >> the saturation time starts to run. >> >> Must be good for 1000 feet. cable can be short say 300 feet . >> >> vrb Carsten >> >> >> Carsten, >> could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? >> Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & >> attach the winch above the exit hatch. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 10/04/2014 , at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " < >> MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote: >> >> I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure >> tight winch as attachment to my sub. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Apr 10 06:14:29 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 11:14:29 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I take it back on the O2 monitor, there is a diagram and parts list of one in the Oxy Hackers book. On 10 April 2014 09:18, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects. Just off the top > of my head. > > Club designed sub plans. Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub but > kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished. im sure he'd have liked to see it > in the water. > > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > > > > On 10 April 2014 01:41, swaters wrote: > >> Douglas, >> Not quite sure yet. I will need to do more research. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Douglas Suhr wrote: >> Scott, I think a manipulator arm would be a great kit and if it >> materializes I will be one of your first kit buyers. What kind of muscle >> would you use (electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc.)? ~ Douglas S. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:00 PM, "Carsten Standfu? " < >> MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote: >> >>> No should start from the sail. >>> The diver chamber need to much compress gases to be useful just for a >>> lock out with the ROV. >>> The hole idea of The ROV is to safe time, gas and decompression time and >>> use it for a first lock >>> out before we decide to open the lock out chamber for the divers - and >>> the saturation time starts to run. >>> >>> Must be good for 1000 feet. cable can be short say 300 feet . >>> >>> vrb Carsten >>> >>> >>> Carsten, >>> could you launch your rov from your diver lock out? >>> Have a way of opening & closing the hatch automatically & >>> attach the winch above the exit hatch. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 10/04/2014 , at 7:31 am, "Carsten Standfu? " < >>> MerlinSub at t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>> I need drawings etc for a small ROV with docking station with a pressure >>> tight winch as attachment to my sub. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 10 06:30:55 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 03:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <4DB21822-E2C5-4CCE-AEA5-63EC9AE087D4@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1397125855.45190.YahooMailMobile@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vanca That is a quick calc for 1.25in that gives 1,300 lbs positive buoyancy I figured a spun head might be to much, but just looking for the cheapest solution. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Apr 10 07:26:41 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 06:26:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <2r848luiweyncqksgyc1chht.1397129162181@email.android.com> Wow. Thanks Sean. I really appriciate the calculations! Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote:Scott, my pressure hull optimization software project has been sitting idle on the back burner for some time now.? Nevertheless, some of the modules work, so I ran your numbers through the spherical shell calculator.? The results shown below are in compliance with the most recent ABS rules, with no additional safety factor added.? I used your 6' dimension as the inner diameter, and incremented shell thickness 0.0001 m at a time until the desired working depth was reached.? Executive summary:? 0.0378 m (1.4882 in) for A516 gr 70, and 0.0208 m (0.8189 in) for HY-80.? Details below: Let me know if you want to run additional scenarios. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jibiefjg.png Type: image/png Size: 70163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hibihdjg.png Type: image/png Size: 69536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Apr 10 07:35:19 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 06:35:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Message-ID: <0puxcxyya1l5jeaikd9o9946.1397129659493@email.android.com> Awesome Alan! Thanks! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAlan James wrote:Scott, just did a quick Google & these people make 1.5" segmented hemispheres 6ft in diameter. http://www.cmforming.com/tankheads-and-accessories.htm http://www.cmforming.com/pdfs/hemispherical-asme-code-type.pdf You may have to compromise depth to line up with what's available if there is a stock item somewhere. Alan From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Jon,? I haven't thought as far as that yet. Mostly still seeing if this project is even feasable still. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Jon Wallace wrote: As far as I'm aware, ABS doesn't deal with crush depth only maximum working pressure which incorporates usage factors (n), in this case of n=.67.? If n=1 could be considered "crush depth", then the calculator shows crush occurring at 2287 psi with 1.5 inch thick hemisphere and max working depth of 1532 psi with a usage factor of n=.67 which is right in the parameters that he is looking for.? The problem with using n=1 as an indicator of crush depth, I believe, is that there's no way to guarantee it's an accurate representation of when the hull will fail because actual fabrication variables resulting in less than ideal geometric structures can lower the calculated result.? When using ABS/ASME we should always be solving for max working pressure, not crush depth. So your observation is correct, and solving for a working depth of ~3000 feet results in a much thinner hemisphere.? I didn't know what Scott was using for a safety factor so just plugged the numbers to get 2578 psi from the ABS calculator, but that obviously is over-built for what Scott's intended use is.? Using a thickness of 1.25 inches, ABS is showing max working pressure of 1268 psi or 2849 feet, just slightly less than his 3000 foot requirement. Jon On 4/9/2014 10:08 PM, Alan James wrote: I'm a bit confused Jon, Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth of??5709 feet (2543 psi). You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The working pressure I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Apr 10 07:53:10 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 06:53:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> Sean, When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then might have to do some more thinking Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote:Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat.? With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m before going negative. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ibdaaaae.png Type: image/png Size: 74000 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ihidfjgg.png Type: image/png Size: 73716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Apr 10 08:44:06 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:44:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> References: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> Message-ID: <53469216.4000304@psubs.org> Max working depth...his calculator shows a .67 usage factor. I'm hoping Sean is going to include English units in the final product :) On 4/10/2014 7:53 AM, swaters wrote: > Sean, > When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then might have to do some more thinking > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 08:58:43 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 06:58:43 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> References: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> Message-ID: Per ABS, it is the maximum allowable working pressure, which corresponds to a critical limit pressure multiplied by a prescribed usage factor. Failure is not deterministic - if you performed destructive external pressure to failure tests on 1000 identical hulls, the resulting failure pressures would follow a bell curve distribution, and the "crush depth" could be said to be either the peak, or a prescribed number of standard deviations in advance of it, such that eg. 99% of such hulls are still intact at that pressure. I don't know specifically how the ABS rules equations were derived, so I can't speak to how ABS defines the failure pressure. In any case, the usage factor puts the maximum allowable working pressure well below the region where you need to worry about where exactly the line is. This is much more apparent when you look at the stiffened cylinder calculations, as there are a half-dozen or so ways such a hull can fail, so the usage factors are similar with the exception of a strength failure, which has a lower factor. This is because strength failures are much more predictable than buckling failures, so the line is clearer (bell curve is narrower), and the lower usage factor ensures that such a failure will occur before any of the other modes. ABS language does not include "crush" or "failure" - only "critical" pressures, which they do not elaborate on the definition of, and "maximum allowable working pressures". Consensus seems to be that it is imprudent to design for typical working depth at the ABS maximum allowable, but what additional safety factor should be incorporated is unclear. There is some safety inherent in the ABS usage factor, and according to their own rules, a hull designed to operate at MAWP should pass classification. That said, additional safety over and above the MAWP is probably prudent, and would be achieved simply by designing for a MAWP deeper than your operating depth, but such safety is arbitrary and at the designer's discretion. Sean On April 10, 2014 5:53:10 AM MDT, swaters wrote: >Sean, >When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the >design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that >boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then >might have to do some more thinking >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" > wrote:Further to this discussion, additional safety >factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working >pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity >(net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner >diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, >meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes >heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat.? With >HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m >before going negative. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 09:03:44 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:03:44 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <53469216.4000304@psubs.org> References: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> <53469216.4000304@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56f965e8-6c00-42a7-9f2e-257cd5aeb241@email.android.com> Metric is easier to debug, but yes, it will have the archaic units as well. ;-) Sean On April 10, 2014 6:44:06 AM MDT, Jon Wallace wrote: > >Max working depth...his calculator shows a .67 usage factor. I'm >hoping Sean is going to include English units in the final product :) > > > >On 4/10/2014 7:53 AM, swaters wrote: >> Sean, >> When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the >design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that >boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then >might have to do some more thinking >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 09:34:41 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:34:41 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <0puxcxyya1l5jeaikd9o9946.1397129659493@email.android.com> References: <0puxcxyya1l5jeaikd9o9946.1397129659493@email.android.com> Message-ID: <7be24f9f-6003-4f1f-b7af-c19d5950229d@email.android.com> If shipping cost is no object: http://www.edmontonexchanger.com/pressure-vessel-components/overview-of-services/ Sean On April 10, 2014 5:35:19 AM MDT, swaters wrote: >Awesome Alan! Thanks! >-Scott Waters > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAlan James > wrote:Scott, >just did a quick Google & these people make 1.5" segmented hemispheres >6ft in diameter. >http://www.cmforming.com/tankheads-and-accessories.htm >http://www.cmforming.com/pdfs/hemispherical-asme-code-type.pdf >You may have to compromise depth to line up with what's available if >there is a stock item >somewhere. >Alan > > > >From: swaters >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:37 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine > >Jon,? >I haven't thought as far as that yet. Mostly still seeing if this >project is even feasable still. >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >Jon Wallace wrote: > >As far as I'm aware, ABS doesn't deal with crush depth only maximum >working pressure which incorporates usage factors (n), in this case of >n=.67.? If n=1 could be considered "crush depth", then the calculator >shows crush occurring at 2287 psi with 1.5 inch thick hemisphere and >max working depth of 1532 psi with a usage factor of n=.67 which is >right in the parameters that he is looking for.? The problem with using >n=1 as an indicator of crush depth, I believe, is that there's no >way to guarantee it's an accurate representation of when the hull will >fail because actual fabrication variables resulting in less than ideal >geometric structures can lower the calculated result.? When using >ABS/ASME we should always be solving for max working pressure, >not crush depth. > >So your observation is correct, and solving for a working depth of >~3000 feet results in a much thinner hemisphere.? I didn't know what >Scott was using for a safety factor so just plugged the numbers to get >2578 psi from the ABS calculator, but that obviously is over-built for >what Scott's intended use is.? Using a thickness of 1.25 inches, ABS is >showing max working pressure of 1268 psi or 2849 feet, just slightly >less than his 3000 foot requirement. > >Jon > > >On 4/9/2014 10:08 PM, Alan James wrote: >I'm a bit confused Jon, >Scott was asking for the thickness for a crush depth >of??5709 feet (2543 psi). >You are saying 2.5 for a maximum working pressure of 2578 psi. The >working pressure >I thought was the design depth or maximum operating depth. >Alan > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Apr 10 12:19:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 10 Apr 2014 16:19 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine In-Reply-To: <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> References: <20140409152937.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.53056df81a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1397083982.32806.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <65B9DDE5-2D3E-4E83-842E-A6D0208D199B@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1WYHhp-1DFtrM0@fwd29.t-online.de> Another to compare: Depthstar 4000 1965 Diameter Sphere 2000 mm Thichness 30,5 mm HY-80 Deep rate 1220 m 3 persons 9,0 ts total 1 Mill.USD (1965) vbr Carsten "Vance Bradley" schrieb: As a comparison. The 6' sphere Perry used for the 3000' ARMS bells and the PC-16 were .75" wall HY-100. More expensive, but 40%(ish) lighter. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Alan James wrote: Scott, I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park. Alan From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer. Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options. Pay for a design in material that is workable On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" wrote: Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea. -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: Daniel Lance Lance Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance . Just my two cents, Dan Lance On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, wrote: Thanks Carsten for the encouragement Thanks Alan for all the CAD info -Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: "Carsten Standfu? " Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach. "We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.." schrieb: The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine From: hank pronk Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build. The two subs are totally different. I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own pressure vessel fab shop. (maybe) Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost. I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000. As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it. Hank On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland wrote: Scott, Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok. Join a local tiddlywinks class or something. http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional This is not too difficult to use. Regards James On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters wrote: I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way. Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be. If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet. Hank On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters wrote: $125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them). I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters wrote: Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Vance Bradley wrote: Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research). Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters wrote: So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Alan James wrote: Scott, in general people design their boats with a crush depth of twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x there proposed maximum operating depth. So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters. Alan From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking. 1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine 2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability. 3) Learn to use CAD 4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete My initial goals are 1) Hold 3 people 2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less 3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m) 4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling 5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Apr 10 12:34:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 10 Apr 2014 16:34 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <2r848luiweyncqksgyc1chht.1397129162181@email.android.com> References: <2r848luiweyncqksgyc1chht.1397129162181@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1WYHvQ-4P7glU0@fwd28.t-online.de> Okay Sean.. and now again with carbon fiber ?n a ceramic matrix.. :-O & :-) vbr Carsten "swaters" schrieb: > Wow. Thanks Sean. I really appriciate the calculations! Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote:Scott, my pressure hull optimization software project has been sitting idle on the back burner for some time now. Nevertheless, some of the modules work, so I ran your numbers through the spherical shell calculator. The results shown below are in compliance with the most recent ABS rules, with no additional safety factor added. I used your 6' dimension as the inner diameter, and incremented shell thickness 0.0001 m at a time until the desired working depth was reached. Executive summary: 0.0378 m (1.4882 in) for A516 gr 70, and 0.0208 m (0.8189 in) for HY-80. Details below: Let me know if you want to run additional scenarios. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitestar456 at manx.net Thu Apr 10 12:51:39 2014 From: whitestar456 at manx.net (Graham Bayliss) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:51:39 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> Message-ID: <000001cf54dd$24d10f20$6e732d60$@net> Hi I am receiving you no problem GRAHAM -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: 10 April 2014 02:30 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems Could someone please confirm that they received this email? I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 12:58:54 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 10:58:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <1WYHvQ-4P7glU0@fwd28.t-online.de> References: <2r848luiweyncqksgyc1chht.1397129162181@email.android.com> <1WYHvQ-4P7glU0@fwd28.t-online.de> Message-ID: I would need material properties of both materials, volume fraction of each, and composite lay-up (fiber orientations and layer thicknesses). I'm not sure how to account for lay direction on a sphere, though. Sean On April 10, 2014 10:34:00 AM MDT, "Carsten Standfu? " wrote: >Okay Sean.. and now again with carbon fiber ?n a ceramic matrix.. > >:-O & :-) vbr Carsten > >"swaters" schrieb: >> Wow. Thanks Sean. I really appriciate the calculations! >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" > wrote:Scott, my pressure hull optimization software >project has been sitting idle on the back burner for some time now. >Nevertheless, some of the modules work, so I ran your numbers through >the spherical shell calculator. The results shown below are in >compliance with the most recent ABS rules, with no additional safety >factor added. I used your 6' dimension as the inner diameter, and >incremented shell thickness 0.0001 m at a time until the desired >working >depth was reached. Executive summary: 0.0378 m (1.4882 in) for A516 >gr >70, and 0.0208 m (0.8189 in) for HY-80. Details below: > > > > > >Let me know if you want to run additional scenarios. > >Sean > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 15:00:12 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 15:00:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live or Memorex Message-ID: <62046172-12A5-4842-A1C5-0D14DC1AE0D1@yahoo.com> Question, is it possible with today's technology to at least equal or possibly exceed the human eye for direct forward viewing with live camera technology? Nothing would be more streamlined for long surface transits than a fully enclosed bow section. I would leave side ports. Joe Sent from my iPhone From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 15:37:53 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397158673.66236.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> G.L. seems a lot simpler.? The collapse diving pressure divided by your nominal diving pressure must be? bigger than 1.73 at 600 + meters depth. And tested to 1.2 x NDP. Alan ________________________________ From: Sean T. Stevenson To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Per ABS, it is the maximum allowable working pressure, which corresponds to a critical limit pressure multiplied by a prescribed usage factor. Failure is not deterministic - if you performed destructive external pressure to failure tests on 1000 identical hulls, the resulting failure pressures would follow a bell curve distribution, and the "crush depth" could be said to be either the peak, or a prescribed number of standard deviations in advance of it, such that eg. 99% of such hulls are still intact at that pressure. I don't know specifically how the ABS rules equations were derived, so I can't speak to how ABS defines the failure pressure. In any case, the usage factor puts the maximum allowable working pressure well below the region where you need to worry about where exactly the line is. This is much more apparent when you look at the stiffened cylinder calculation! s, as there are a half-dozen or so ways such a hull can fail, so the usage factors are similar with the exception of a strength failure, which has a lower factor. This is because strength failures are much more predictable than buckling failures, so the line is clearer (bell curve is narrower), and the lower usage factor ensures that such a failure will occur before any of the other modes.? ABS language does not include "crush" or "failure" - only "critical" pressures, which they do not elaborate on the definition of, and "maximum allowable working pressures".? Consensus seems to be that it is imprudent to design for typical working depth at the ABS maximum allowable, but what additional safety factor should be incorporated is unclear. There is some safety inherent in the ABS usage factor, and according to their own rules, a hull designed to operate at MAWP should pass classification. That said, additional safety over and above the MAWP is probably prudent, and would be ! achieved simply by designing for a MAWP deeper than your operating depth, but such safety is arbitrary and at the designer's discretion. Sean On April 10, 2014 5:53:10 AM MDT, swaters wrote: Sean, >When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then might have to do some more thinking >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: >Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat.? With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m before going negative. > > > > > > >________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Thu Apr 10 15:54:40 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 15:54:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <1397158673.66236.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <27w8c64dbco5lesr139tu07e.1397130551077@email.android.com> <1397158673.66236.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <879646D2-8640-4633-BB15-CFF090168DA5@AOL.com> Scott, Have a look at the old Opsub. 66" OD sphere of HY-80. 2000 feet. 5 tons. Modernize it with a big window and an Acrylic dome hatch. Smaller motors and battery pod and you could get it down to Idabel size or maybe less. It was set up to carry three people but would probably be better with two. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Alan James wrote: > > G.L. seems a lot simpler. > The collapse diving pressure divided by your nominal diving pressure must be > bigger than 1.73 at 600 + meters depth. And tested to 1.2 x NDP. > Alan > > > From: Sean T. Stevenson > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 12:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Per ABS, it is the maximum allowable working pressure, which corresponds to a critical limit pressure multiplied by a prescribed usage factor. Failure is not deterministic - if you performed destructive external pressure to failure tests on 1000 identical hulls, the resulting failure pressures would follow a bell curve distribution, and the "crush depth" could be said to be either the peak, or a prescribed number of standard deviations in advance of it, such that eg. 99% of such hulls are still intact at that pressure. I don't know specifically how the ABS rules equations were derived, so I can't speak to how ABS defines the failure pressure. In any case, the usage factor puts the maximum allowable working pressure well below the region where you need to worry about where exactly the line is. This is much more apparent when you look at the stiffened cylinder calculation! s, as there are a half-dozen or so ways such a hull can fail, so the usage factors are similar with the exception of a strength failure, which has a lower factor. This is because strength failures are much more predictable than buckling failures, so the line is clearer (bell curve is narrower), and the lower usage factor ensures that such a failure will occur before any of the other modes. ABS language does not include "crush" or "failure" - only "critical" pressures, which they do not elaborate on the definition of, and "maximum allowable working pressures". Consensus seems to be that it is imprudent to design for typical working depth at the ABS maximum allowable, but what additional safety factor should be incorporated is unclear. There is some safety inherent in the ABS usage factor, and according to their own rules, a hull designed to operate at MAWP should pass classification. That said, additional safety over and above the MAWP is probably prudent, and would be ! achieved simply by designing for a MAWP deeper than your operating depth, but such safety is arbitrary and at the designer's discretion. > Sean > > > On April 10, 2014 5:53:10 AM MDT, swaters wrote: > Sean, > When you are talking about boyancy of the sphere, is the 1152m the design depth or crush depth. If it is the design depth, then that boyancy vs shell thickness in ASME 516 gr 70 is perfect! If not then might have to do some more thinking > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat. With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m before going negative. > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 16:37:02 2014 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:37:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <534624DF.3000104@telus.net> References: <534613D9.9020804@telus.net> <534624DF.3000104@telus.net> Message-ID: <534700fe.470a430a.6dbf.ffffb4f2@mx.google.com> Hi Sean, that is a sexy programme. Is it a rendition of the one on psubs with Visual basic or another programme that you have developed? Love this stuff. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2014 4:58 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush depth beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point in this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant at only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than that, the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to stay afloat. With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending depth to 2347 m before going negative. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9658 (20140410) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 74000 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 73716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psubs2001 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 17:18:03 2014 From: psubs2001 at yahoo.com (Ray Keefer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 14:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Another data point, I just got an email from psubs stating that due to excessive bounce backs I have three chances to re-enable my account or loose it. I have a yahoo email address. Might be related. Regards, Ray On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:36 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: Came thru to me Mark However I have the same problem I cannot get to see if the post has gone thru ? Chs Hugh ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Suhr Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2014 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems ? Mark, you came through for me. Jon, I got your first email as well as this one. ~ Douglas S. ?? ? On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Mark wrote: Could someone please confirm that they received this email? ?I've been reluctant to post messages because I don't believe there going thru the email server. ?I've posted emails in the past with no responses. Regards, Mark Widman Director, GDSN & Data Quality GS1 Global, USA mark.widman at gs1.org 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:19 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > It's something to do with yahoo.com because when I send posts from my yahoo account I don't get my own messages either. ?Perhaps yahoo is filtering the mail because it knows you sent it and is assuming you don't need it sent back to you? ?Could be a mail setting on the server as well, I'll have to check. > > Jon > > >> On 4/9/2014 12:54 PM, Alan wrote: >> Hi, I'm not receiving my own posts. >> I can see others are getting them, as they are replying to them. >> They aren't going in to my Spam. >> I can receive mail from myself, so are wondering if it is a Psubs >> problem? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9658 (20140410) __________ ? The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ? http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9658 (20140410) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Apr 10 21:05:24 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:05:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <534700fe.470a430a.6dbf.ffffb4f2@mx.google.com> References: <534613D9.9020804@telus.net> <534624DF.3000104@telus.net> <534700fe.470a430a.6dbf.ffffb4f2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2d1ad984-2104-4909-b187-db511b006805@email.android.com> I haven't actually used the other tools that are available. I wrote the code from scratch on the basis of the equations provided in the ABS rules. This has allowed me to to error check and verify all of the calculations, make sure they are consistent with the most recent revision of the rules, as well as learn what's going on "under the hood", so to speak. The interface that I posted screenshots from was never intended as an operating interface - those controls and indicators were just for testing the spherical shell module, although it worked as a standalone program in this instance. I hope to create a fancier GUI for the main application when (if?) I finish it. I wrote it in LabVIEW, for no reason other than I am familiar with it from my industrial work, and it's easier to debug than C. Sean On April 10, 2014 2:37:02 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton wrote: >Hi Sean, that is a sexy programme. Is it a rendition of the one on >psubs >with Visual basic or another programme that you have developed? Love >this >stuff. Regards, Hugh > > > > > > > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson >Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2014 4:58 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > > >Further to this discussion, additional safety factor or design crush >depth >beyond the ABS maximum allowable working pressure may be a moot point >in >this example, as the payload capacity (net buoyancy) of the shell in >question (A516 grade 70, 6' inner diameter) becomes negatively buoyant >at >only 1152 m working depth, meaning that if you design for deeper than >that, >the shell becomes heavy enough that you need supplemental buoyancy to >stay >afloat. With HY-80, the situation improves significantly, extending >depth >to 2347 m before going negative. > > > > > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature >database 9658 (20140410) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 08:25:44 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 05:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete Message-ID: <1397219144.22322.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A cheap alternative to a super strong sphere hull is re-enforced concrete. I feel like hiding under a blanket while I say this,lol. I know it is way out there, but concrete is super strong under compression. It is not so good for impact resistance. Concrete is a very easy material to work with and form into a sphere shape. I have no idea what thickness would be needed. Properly engineered I would trust it. Hank From jonw at psubs.org Fri Apr 11 09:30:19 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:30:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> The mail problems for yahoo users is due to more stringent spam control being exercised by YAHOO. I've cleared everybody's "bounce" count and you can ignore the "bounce" message if you got one. I've also implemented a software change that should satisfy yahoo and stop the delivery problems. We'll see. Jon From jonw at psubs.org Fri Apr 11 09:49:06 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:49:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5347F2D2.2060805@psubs.org> A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago. It had a good start but stalled soon afterward. That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it. I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter. Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects. Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans. Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished. im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 09:59:26 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 21:59:26 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397219144.22322.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397219144.22322.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5347F53E.5010208@archivale.com> A huge amount of work was done on concrete for pressure-resisting structures, including long term, deep exposure tests, by the US Naval Civil Engineering Laboratory. Most of the reports are available for downloading free of charge from DTIC. Excellent results were achieved with concrete having NO reinforcement. There has been limited work done with prestressed concrete and even less done with reinforced concrete and ferrocement, which can reasonably be expected to give much more efficient and distortion-tolerant structures. Marc On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk wrote: > A cheap alternative to a super strong sphere hull is re-enforced concrete. I feel like hiding under a blanket while I say this,lol. I know it is way out there, but concrete is super strong under compression. It is not so good for impact resistance. Concrete is a very easy material to work with and form into a sphere shape. I have no idea what thickness would be needed. Properly engineered I would trust it. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Apr 11 14:54:26 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:54:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy National Submarine Day Message-ID: <20140411115426.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.183494c280.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 15:15:26 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5347F53E.5010208@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete. I would not ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete stands in comparison. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 AM A huge amount of work was done on concrete for pressure-resisting structures, including long term, deep exposure tests, by the US Naval Civil Engineering Laboratory. Most of the reports are available for downloading free of charge from DTIC. Excellent results were achieved with concrete having NO reinforcement. There has been limited work done with prestressed concrete and even less done with reinforced concrete and ferrocement, which can reasonably be expected to give much more efficient and distortion-tolerant structures. Marc On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk wrote: > A cheap alternative to a super strong sphere hull is re-enforced concrete. I feel like hiding under a blanket while I say this,lol.? I know it is way out there, but concrete is super strong under compression.? It is not so good for impact resistance.? Concrete is a very easy material to work with and form into a sphere shape.? I have no idea what thickness would be needed.? Properly engineered I would trust it. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Apr 11 15:16:59 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:16:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine Message-ID: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 15:22:36 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine In-Reply-To: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397244156.50068.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, they will not act the same at depth. The deeper you go the more force you need to push the outside rod out. The extra force is not a biggy. Keep the rod dia small 5/8 is good. Then take the area of the cross section of the rod and multiply that area by the water pressure and you have the amount of extra force. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine To: "psubs" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 3:16 PM I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 15:27:05 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine In-Reply-To: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397244425.97255.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, I think know what your up to and it is a good idea. You can use a longer stroke cylinder inside the sub with a smaller bore. That gives you more power, you could actually have four foot pedals like brakes in your car to operate an arm. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine To: "psubs" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 3:16 PM I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Apr 11 15:39:23 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:39:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine Message-ID: <20140411123923.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.7f29ad910a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 15:54:07 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine In-Reply-To: <20140411123923.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.7f29ad910a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1397246047.3793.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> oopps, your secret is safe with me, Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 3:39 PM haha. Shhhh.?Keep the secret Hank. I think I have a breakthrough idea for psubs. Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine From: hank pronk Date: Fri, April 11, 2014 12:27 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Scott, I think know what your up to and it is a good idea. You can use a longer stroke cylinder inside the sub with a smaller bore. That gives you more power, you could actually have four foot pedals like brakes in your car to operate an arm. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine To: "psubs" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 3:16 PM I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From psubs2001 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 15:58:46 2014 From: psubs2001 at yahoo.com (Ray Keefer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397246326.83914.YahooMailNeo@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jon. Yahoo keeps mucking with their mail tool to make it more hip. They keep forgetting a fundamental issue, it is a mail tool. And it already works! On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: The mail problems for yahoo users is due to more stringent spam control being exercised by YAHOO.? I've cleared everybody's "bounce" count and you can ignore the "bounce" message if you got one.? I've also implemented a software change that should satisfy yahoo and stop the delivery problems.? We'll see. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 20:26:36 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 08:26:36 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5348883C.8070602@archivale.com> I don't have hard numbers, but remember that resistance to mostly compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most practical steel structures buckle under compression long before reaching their actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there due to its stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer to using its full compressive strength. That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its cost and ease of maintenance. Marc PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant reports that I have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete. I would not ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete stands in comparison. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 AM > > A huge amount of work was done on > concrete for pressure-resisting structures, including long > term, deep exposure tests, by the US Naval Civil Engineering > Laboratory. Most of the reports are available for > downloading free of charge from DTIC. > > Excellent results were achieved with concrete having NO > reinforcement. There has been limited work done with > prestressed concrete and even less done with reinforced > concrete and ferrocement, which can reasonably be expected > to give much more efficient and distortion-tolerant > structures. > > Marc > > On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > A cheap alternative to a super strong sphere hull is > re-enforced concrete. I feel like hiding under a blanket > while I say this,lol. I know it is way out there, but > concrete is super strong under compression. It is not > so good for impact resistance. Concrete is a very easy > material to work with and form into a sphere shape. I > have no idea what thickness would be needed. Properly > engineered I would trust it. > > Hank > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 21:03:00 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 18:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5348883C.8070602@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM I don't have hard numbers, but remember that resistance to mostly compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most practical steel structures buckle under compression long before reaching their actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there due to its stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer to using its full compressive strength. That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its cost and ease of maintenance. Marc PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant reports that I have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete.? I would not ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel.? But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete stands in comparison. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 AM > >???A huge amount of work was done on >???concrete for pressure-resisting structures, including long >???term, deep exposure tests, by the US Naval Civil Engineering >???Laboratory. Most of the reports are available for >???downloading free of charge from DTIC. > >???Excellent results were achieved with concrete having NO >???reinforcement. There has been limited work done with >???prestressed concrete and even less done with reinforced >???concrete and ferrocement, which can reasonably be expected >???to give much more efficient and distortion-tolerant >???structures. > >???Marc > >???On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk wrote: >???> A cheap alternative to a super strong sphere hull is >???re-enforced concrete. I feel like hiding under a blanket >???while I say this,lol.? I know it is way out there, but >???concrete is super strong under compression.? It is not >???so good for impact resistance.? Concrete is a very easy >???material to work with and form into a sphere shape.? I >???have no idea what thickness would be needed.? Properly >???engineered I would trust it. >???> Hank >???> >???> _______________________________________________ >???> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> > >???-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???_______________________________________________ >???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Apr 11 21:05:45 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 20:05:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <5np4e945p2admdphk4n9iaa8.1397264263967@email.android.com> A crazy question someone might know the answer too. If a psub member wanted to do some kind of private contract or side jobs or something with a submarine or as a commercial diver is there any way to do that? If so what kind of jobs are out there and how would someone go about doing them. I do volunteer work with the local public service diving and sometimes do side jobs installing docks and maintanceing docks and search and recovery. If there was some way me and my dive team could travel to the ocean and do some side jobs for fun / a little cash it would be cool. I don't know a whole lot about what is available out there. Ultimately if I did build a deep diving sub, commercial work would really be a good excuse to go dive. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 21:33:39 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:33:39 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534897F3.3010408@archivale.com> EXACTLY. Marc On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM > > I don't have hard numbers, but > remember that resistance to mostly > compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most > practical > steel structures buckle under compression long before > reaching their > actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there > due to its > stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer > to using > its full compressive strength. > > That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its > cost and ease > of maintenance. > > Marc > > PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant > reports that I > have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. > > On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would > be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete. I would not > ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. > But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete > stands in comparison. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 > AM > > > > A huge amount of work was done on > > concrete for pressure-resisting > structures, including long > > term, deep exposure tests, by the US > Naval Civil Engineering > > Laboratory. Most of the reports are > available for > > downloading free of charge from DTIC. > > > > Excellent results were achieved with > concrete having NO > > reinforcement. There has been limited > work done with > > prestressed concrete and even less > done with reinforced > > concrete and ferrocement, which can > reasonably be expected > > to give much more efficient and > distortion-tolerant > > structures. > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > A cheap alternative to a super > strong sphere hull is > > re-enforced concrete. I feel like > hiding under a blanket > > while I say this,lol. I know it > is way out there, but > > concrete is super strong under > compression. It is not > > so good for impact resistance. > Concrete is a very easy > > material to work with and form into a > sphere shape. I > > have no idea what thickness would be > needed. Properly > > engineered I would trust it. > > > Hank > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 21:42:03 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:42:03 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534899EB.4050907@archivale.com> I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of Portland cement cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will help me proselytize new adherents... Marc On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM > > I don't have hard numbers, but > remember that resistance to mostly > compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most > practical > steel structures buckle under compression long before > reaching their > actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there > due to its > stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer > to using > its full compressive strength. > > That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its > cost and ease > of maintenance. > > Marc > > PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant > reports that I > have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. > > On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would > be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete. I would not > ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. > But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete > stands in comparison. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 > AM > > > > A huge amount of work was done on > > concrete for pressure-resisting > structures, including long > > term, deep exposure tests, by the US > Naval Civil Engineering > > Laboratory. Most of the reports are > available for > > downloading free of charge from DTIC. > > > > Excellent results were achieved with > concrete having NO > > reinforcement. There has been limited > work done with > > prestressed concrete and even less > done with reinforced > > concrete and ferrocement, which can > reasonably be expected > > to give much more efficient and > distortion-tolerant > > structures. > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > A cheap alternative to a super > strong sphere hull is > > re-enforced concrete. I feel like > hiding under a blanket > > while I say this,lol. I know it > is way out there, but > > concrete is super strong under > compression. It is not > > so good for impact resistance. > Concrete is a very easy > > material to work with and form into a > sphere shape. I > > have no idea what thickness would be > needed. Properly > > engineered I would trust it. > > > Hank > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 21:49:44 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:49:44 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: <5np4e945p2admdphk4n9iaa8.1397264263967@email.android.com> References: <5np4e945p2admdphk4n9iaa8.1397264263967@email.android.com> Message-ID: <53489BB8.7030307@archivale.com> This is exactly what I've been thinking about for years. Salvage work in particular is still very much a free-for-all, depending heavily on opportunity, initiative and personal contacts. If you had your own support vessel, or your sub were big enough to serve as its own support vessel, the world would be your oyster. It was Simon Lake's memoirs that got me thinking along these lines. Once he had the capability, he created his own opportunities by submitting what amounted to business plans to people with the necessary means to capitalize the venture. He did the job, collected his share, made sure his "angels" got the rewards they expected, and moved on. It was Lake's memoirs, too, that got me thinking in terms of bottom-crawling capability. Best, Marc On 4/12/2014 9:05 AM, swaters wrote: > A crazy question someone might know the answer too. If a psub member > wanted to do some kind of private contract or side jobs or something > with a submarine or as a commercial diver is there any way to do that? > If so what kind of jobs are out there and how would someone go about > doing them. I do volunteer work with the local public service diving and > sometimes do side jobs installing docks and maintanceing docks and > search and recovery. If there was some way me and my dive team could > travel to the ocean and do some side jobs for fun / a little cash it > would be cool. I don't know a whole lot about what is available out > there. Ultimately if I did build a deep diving sub, commercial work > would really be a good excuse to go dive. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 21:50:44 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 18:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534899EB.4050907@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397267444.31359.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, I built a concrete hull for a sub once. I took a 500 gal propane tank and split it like a hot dog bun and mad a mold from it. The inside mold floated in the concrete and the hull thickness was thin at the top and thick on the bottom. It was a failure but when I opened the mold the outside of the hull was perfect. It was a cheap experiment. Now I know how to do it. I work with concrete all the time in different ways. My company does concrete cutting, concrete demolition and concrete line pumping. My problem is, I am not a mathematician or an engineer. I like the idea, but can not implement it due the lack of engineering. There is no room for guessing with submarines. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:42 PM I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of Portland cement cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will help me proselytize new adherents... Marc On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM > >???I don't have hard numbers, but >???remember that resistance to mostly >???compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most >???practical >???steel structures buckle under compression long before >???reaching their >???actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there >???due to its >???stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer >???to using >???its full compressive strength. > >???That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its >???cost and ease >???of maintenance. > >???Marc > >???PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant >???reports that I >???have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. > >???On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: >???> A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would >???be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete.? I would not >???ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. >???But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete >???stands in comparison. >???> Hank >???> -------------------------------------------- >???> On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc >???wrote: >???> >???>???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???>???To: "Personal Submersibles General >???Discussion" >???>???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 >???AM >???> >???>???A huge amount of work was done on >???>???concrete for pressure-resisting >???structures, including long >???>???term, deep exposure tests, by the US >???Naval Civil Engineering >???>???Laboratory. Most of the reports are >???available for >???>???downloading free of charge from DTIC. >???> >???>???Excellent results were achieved with >???concrete having NO >???>???reinforcement. There has been limited >???work done with >???>???prestressed concrete and even less >???done with reinforced >???>???concrete and ferrocement, which can >???reasonably be expected >???>???to give much more efficient and >???distortion-tolerant >???>???structures. >???> >???>???Marc >???> >???>???On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk >???wrote: >???>???> A cheap alternative to a super >???strong sphere hull is >???>???re-enforced concrete. I feel like >???hiding under a blanket >???>???while I say this,lol.? I know it >???is way out there, but >???>???concrete is super strong under >???compression.? It is not >???>???so good for impact resistance. >???Concrete is a very easy >???>???material to work with and form into a >???sphere shape.? I >???>???have no idea what thickness would be >???needed.? Properly >???>???engineered I would trust it. >???>???> Hank >???>???> >???>???> >???_______________________________________________ >???>???> Personal_Submersibles mailing >???list >???>???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>???> >???> >???>???-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???>???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???>???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???>???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???>???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???>???_______________________________________________ >???>???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???>???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> >???> >???> _______________________________________________ >???> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> > >???-- >???Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???_______________________________________________ >???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 22:14:56 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:14:56 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397267444.31359.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397267444.31359.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5348A1A0.7070405@archivale.com> Great minds think alike. I suggested to a friend, who had bought a fiberglas tank packaged as a 20-foot ISO container, that he split it on a vertical diametral plane, hinge it at one end and use it as a female mold for making submarine hulls or submarine habitat modules. I was thinking in terms of laminated ferrocement technique, so no inner mold required, which is good because I would have no idea how to keep it centered. I went to a lot of trouble to work out how to support the weight of the growing FC structure and how to integrate at least some of the necessary appendages and hull penetrations, but I never heard from the friend again on this topic. I guess he wrote it off to momentary mental aberration. Concrete is still, despite NCEL, very much an unknown quantity in submarine engineering terms. Besides the NCEL reports, some information is available from the offshore oil industry, which builds gigantic semi-submersible platforms which may extend to depths of hundreds of meters, but even that data is hard to get hold of and hard to interpret for our purposes. My plan, when I finally build my ferrocement or prestressed sub, is to build two hulls (take two - they're cheap!). One will be sacrificed by ballasting to slightly negative buoyancy and sinking it, unoccupied, in waters deep enough to be certain to exceed its crush depth, then recording the depth where the first failure occurs and the final crush depth. That will be used to calibrate the code used to design the second hull. Considering the fact that the test hull will be only that - no fittings or equipment of any kind other than the data recording module which will be recovered - and considering the cost differential between concrete and steel - I think I can bring in the test hull and the final hull for much less than a single equivalent steel hull. And as for maintenance...he he. Best, Marc On 4/12/2014 9:50 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > I built a concrete hull for a sub once. I took a 500 gal propane tank and split it like a hot dog bun and mad a mold from it. The inside mold floated in the concrete and the hull thickness was thin at the top and thick on the bottom. It was a failure but when I opened the mold the outside of the hull was perfect. It was a cheap experiment. Now I know how to do it. I work with concrete all the time in different ways. My company does concrete cutting, concrete demolition and concrete line pumping. My problem is, I am not a mathematician or an engineer. I like the idea, but can not implement it due the lack of engineering. There is no room for guessing with submarines. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:42 PM > > I think I will post those reports to > Dropbox. > > Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of > Portland cement > cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will > help me > proselytize new adherents... > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Marc, > > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. > The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, > not thousands. Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 > PM > > > > I don't have hard numbers, but > > remember that resistance to mostly > > compressive loading is a structural > STABILITY problem. Most > > practical > > steel structures buckle under > compression long before > > reaching their > > actual compression limit. Concrete has > an advantage there > > due to its > > stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest > that it comes much closer > > to using > > its full compressive strength. > > > > That said, my primary interest in > concrete is due to its > > cost and ease > > of maintenance. > > > > Marc > > > > PS. If anybody is interested, I will > add the relevant > > reports that I > > have to my public Dropbox folder and > post the link. > > > > On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > A six foot od sphere built in > 1.25in thick steel would > > be equal in weight to 4in thick > concrete. I would not > > ever expect 4in concrete to compare to > 1.25 steel. > > But, it would be interesting to know > where the concrete > > stands in comparison. > > > Hank > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > To: "Personal > Submersibles General > > Discussion" > > > Received: > Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 > > AM > > > > > > A huge amount of > work was done on > > > concrete for > pressure-resisting > > structures, including long > > > term, deep > exposure tests, by the US > > Naval Civil Engineering > > > Laboratory. Most > of the reports are > > available for > > > downloading free > of charge from DTIC. > > > > > > Excellent > results were achieved with > > concrete having NO > > > reinforcement. > There has been limited > > work done with > > > prestressed > concrete and even less > > done with reinforced > > > concrete and > ferrocement, which can > > reasonably be expected > > > to give much > more efficient and > > distortion-tolerant > > > structures. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > On 4/11/2014 > 8:25 PM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > > > A cheap > alternative to a super > > strong sphere hull is > > > re-enforced > concrete. I feel like > > hiding under a blanket > > > while I say > this,lol. I know it > > is way out there, but > > > concrete is > super strong under > > compression. It is not > > > so good for > impact resistance. > > Concrete is a very easy > > > material to work > with and form into a > > sphere shape. I > > > have no idea > what thickness would be > > needed. Properly > > > engineered I > would trust it. > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- Archivale > catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations > (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations > (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 22:32:11 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 19:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5348A1A0.7070405@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397269931.53328.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, I would think that one test is not enough especially with concrete. I would want in the range of ten tests to failure just because of the unknown. I like it but just can't get there from here. It will take some serious resources to prove the concept. I may make a sphere in the winter and destroy it just to satisfy my curiosity. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:14 PM Great minds think alike. I suggested to a friend, who had bought a fiberglas tank packaged as a 20-foot ISO container, that he split it on a vertical diametral plane, hinge it at one end and use it as a female mold for making submarine hulls or submarine habitat modules. I was thinking in terms of laminated ferrocement technique, so no inner mold required, which is good because I would have no idea how to keep it centered. I went to a lot of trouble to work out how to support the weight of the growing FC structure and how to integrate at least some of the necessary appendages and hull penetrations, but I never heard from the friend again on this topic. I guess he wrote it off to momentary mental aberration. Concrete is still, despite NCEL, very much an unknown quantity in submarine engineering terms. Besides the NCEL reports, some information is available from the offshore oil industry, which builds gigantic semi-submersible platforms which may extend to depths of hundreds of meters, but even that data is hard to get hold of and hard to interpret for our purposes. My plan, when I finally build my ferrocement or prestressed sub, is to build two hulls (take two - they're cheap!). One will be sacrificed by ballasting to slightly negative buoyancy and sinking it, unoccupied, in waters deep enough to be certain to exceed its crush depth, then recording the depth where the first failure occurs and the final crush depth. That will be used to calibrate the code used to design the second hull. Considering the fact that the test hull will be only that - no fittings or equipment of any kind other than the data recording module which will be recovered - and considering the cost differential between concrete and steel - I think I can bring in the test hull and the final hull for much less than a single equivalent steel hull. And as for maintenance...he he. Best, Marc On 4/12/2014 9:50 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > I built a concrete hull for a sub once.? I took a 500 gal propane tank and split it like a hot dog bun and mad a mold from it.? The inside mold floated in the concrete and the hull thickness was thin at the top and thick on the bottom.? It was a failure but when I opened the mold the outside of the hull was perfect.? It was a cheap experiment.? Now I know how to do it.? I work with concrete all the time in different ways.? My company does concrete cutting, concrete demolition and concrete line pumping.? My problem is, I am not a mathematician or an engineer.? I like the idea, but can not implement it due the lack of engineering. There is no room for guessing with submarines. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:42 PM > >???I think I will post those reports to >???Dropbox. > >???Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of >???Portland cement >???cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will >???help me >???proselytize new adherents... > >???Marc > >???On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: >???> Marc, >???> Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. >???The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, >???not thousands. Hank >???> -------------------------------------------- >???> On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc >???wrote: >???> >???>???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???>???To: "Personal Submersibles General >???Discussion" >???>???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 >???PM >???> >???>???I don't have hard numbers, but >???>???remember that resistance to mostly >???>???compressive loading is a structural >???STABILITY problem. Most >???>???practical >???>???steel structures buckle under >???compression long before >???>???reaching their >???>???actual compression limit. Concrete has >???an advantage there >???>???due to its >???>???stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest >???that it comes much closer >???>???to using >???>???its full compressive strength. >???> >???>???That said, my primary interest in >???concrete is due to its >???>???cost and ease >???>???of maintenance. >???> >???>???Marc >???> >???>???PS. If anybody is interested, I will >???add the relevant >???>???reports that I >???>???have to my public Dropbox folder and >???post the link. >???> >???>???On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk >???wrote: >???>???> A six foot od sphere built in >???1.25in thick steel would >???>???be equal in weight to 4in thick >???concrete.? I would not >???>???ever expect 4in concrete to compare to >???1.25 steel. >???>???But, it would be interesting to know >???where the concrete >???>???stands in comparison. >???>???> Hank >???>???> >???-------------------------------------------- >???>???> On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc >??? >???>???wrote: >???>???> >???>???>???Subject: Re: >???[PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???>???>???To: "Personal >???Submersibles General >???>???Discussion" >???>???>???Received: >???Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 >???>???AM >???>???> >???>???>???A huge amount of >???work was done on >???>???>???concrete for >???pressure-resisting >???>???structures, including long >???>???>???term, deep >???exposure tests, by the US >???>???Naval Civil Engineering >???>???>???Laboratory. Most >???of the reports are >???>???available for >???>???>???downloading free >???of charge from DTIC. >???>???> >???>???>???Excellent >???results were achieved with >???>???concrete having NO >???>???>???reinforcement. >???There has been limited >???>???work done with >???>???>???prestressed >???concrete and even less >???>???done with reinforced >???>???>???concrete and >???ferrocement, which can >???>???reasonably be expected >???>???>???to give much >???more efficient and >???>???distortion-tolerant >???>???>???structures. >???>???> >???>???>???Marc >???>???> >???>???>???On 4/11/2014 >???8:25 PM, hank pronk >???>???wrote: >???>???>???> A cheap >???alternative to a super >???>???strong sphere hull is >???>???>???re-enforced >???concrete. I feel like >???>???hiding under a blanket >???>???>???while I say >???this,lol.? I know it >???>???is way out there, but >???>???>???concrete is >???super strong under >???>???compression.? It is not >???>???>???so good for >???impact resistance. >???>???Concrete is a very easy >???>???>???material to work >???with and form into a >???>???sphere shape.? I >???>???>???have no idea >???what thickness would be >???>???needed.? Properly >???>???>???engineered I >???would trust it. >???>???>???> Hank >???>???>???> >???>???>???> >???>???_______________________________________________ >???>???>???> >???Personal_Submersibles mailing >???>???list >???>???>???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???>???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>???>???> >???>???> >???>???>???-- Archivale >???catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???>???>???Polymath weblog: >???http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???>???>???Translations >???(ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???>???>???Translations >???(BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???>???>???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???>???>???_______________________________________________ >???>???>???Personal_Submersibles >???mailing list >???>???>???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???>???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>???> >???>???> >???>???> >???_______________________________________________ >???>???> Personal_Submersibles mailing >???list >???>???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>???> >???> >???>???-- >???>???Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???>???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???>???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???>???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???>???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???>???_______________________________________________ >???>???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???>???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???>???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> >???> >???> _______________________________________________ >???> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> > >???-- >???Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???_______________________________________________ >???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From cast55 at telus.net Fri Apr 11 22:34:10 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 20:34:10 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5348A622.9010706@telus.net> Hank, There are countless varieties of concrete, all with different mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an effective comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario (6' OD, 4in thick shell) with average material properties for ordinary concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 fsw! See below. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iggefgjj.png Type: image/png Size: 83202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 22:44:22 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:44:22 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397269931.53328.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397269931.53328.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5348A886.9090708@archivale.com> Actually, the consistency of the results of the NCEL tests on un-reinforced concrete is what encourages me to consider only one final check on the numbers for the hull as a whole. I expect even better consistency from ferrocement because of the absence of coarse aggregate, which is the major source of "scatter" in finished concrete properties. The presence of reinforcement in the form of fine, distributed mesh with high surface adhesion also builds confidence. It will also be possible to build small test panels to cheaply test the properties of the cured composite on land without investing in a complete hull. Currently trying to recover some of my Dropbox and local hard drive space so I can post the reports that I have, Marc On 4/12/2014 10:32 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > I would think that one test is not enough especially with concrete. I would want in the range of ten tests to failure just because of the unknown. I like it but just can't get there from here. It will take some serious resources to prove the concept. I may make a sphere in the winter and destroy it just to satisfy my curiosity. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:14 PM > > Great minds think alike. I suggested > to a friend, who had bought a fiberglas tank packaged as a > 20-foot ISO container, that he split it on a vertical > diametral plane, hinge it at one end and use it as a female > mold for making submarine hulls or submarine habitat > modules. I was thinking in terms of laminated ferrocement > technique, so no inner mold required, which is good because > I would have no idea how to keep it centered. I went to a > lot of trouble to work out how to support the weight of the > growing FC structure and how to integrate at least some of > the necessary appendages and hull penetrations, but I never > heard from the friend again on this topic. I guess he wrote > it off to momentary mental aberration. > > Concrete is still, despite NCEL, very much an unknown > quantity in submarine engineering terms. Besides the NCEL > reports, some information is available from the offshore oil > industry, which builds gigantic semi-submersible platforms > which may extend to depths of hundreds of meters, but even > that data is hard to get hold of and hard to interpret for > our purposes. > > My plan, when I finally build my ferrocement or prestressed > sub, is to build two hulls (take two - they're cheap!). One > will be sacrificed by ballasting to slightly negative > buoyancy and sinking it, unoccupied, in waters deep enough > to be certain to exceed its crush depth, then recording the > depth where the first failure occurs and the final crush > depth. That will be used to calibrate the code used to > design the second hull. Considering the fact that the test > hull will be only that - no fittings or equipment of any > kind other than the data recording module which will be > recovered - and considering the cost differential between > concrete and steel - I think I can bring in the test hull > and the final hull for much less than a single equivalent > steel hull. And as for maintenance...he he. > > Best, > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:50 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Marc, > > I built a concrete hull for a sub once. I took a > 500 gal propane tank and split it like a hot dog bun and mad > a mold from it. The inside mold floated in the > concrete and the hull thickness was thin at the top and > thick on the bottom. It was a failure but when I > opened the mold the outside of the hull was perfect. > It was a cheap experiment. Now I know how to do > it. I work with concrete all the time in different > ways. My company does concrete cutting, concrete > demolition and concrete line pumping. My problem is, I > am not a mathematician or an engineer. I like the > idea, but can not implement it due the lack of engineering. > There is no room for guessing with submarines. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:42 > PM > > > > I think I will post those reports to > > Dropbox. > > > > Right now I feel like I'm one of a > tiny deviant cult of > > Portland cement > > cultists within the psubs community. > Maybe the reports will > > help me > > proselytize new adherents... > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > Marc, > > > Not only is it dirt cheap, > concrete is so easy to form. > > The material cost for a 6 foot sphere > is in the hundreds, > > not thousands. Hank > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > To: "Personal > Submersibles General > > Discussion" > > > Received: > Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 > > PM > > > > > > I don't have > hard numbers, but > > > remember that > resistance to mostly > > > compressive > loading is a structural > > STABILITY problem. Most > > > practical > > > steel structures > buckle under > > compression long before > > > reaching their > > > actual > compression limit. Concrete has > > an advantage there > > > due to its > > > stiffness - the > NCEL tests suggest > > that it comes much closer > > > to using > > > its full > compressive strength. > > > > > > That said, my > primary interest in > > concrete is due to its > > > cost and ease > > > of maintenance. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > PS. If anybody > is interested, I will > > add the relevant > > > reports that I > > > have to my > public Dropbox folder and > > post the link. > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 > 3:15 AM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > > > A six foot > od sphere built in > > 1.25in thick steel would > > > be equal in > weight to 4in thick > > concrete. I would not > > > ever expect 4in > concrete to compare to > > 1.25 steel. > > > But, it would be > interesting to know > > where the concrete > > > stands in > comparison. > > > > Hank > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, > 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > To: > "Personal > > Submersibles General > > > Discussion" > > > > > Received: > > Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 > > > AM > > > > > > > > A > huge amount of > > work was done on > > > > concrete > for > > pressure-resisting > > > structures, > including long > > > > term, > deep > > exposure tests, by the US > > > Naval Civil > Engineering > > > > Laboratory. > Most > > of the reports are > > > available for > > > > downloading > free > > of charge from DTIC. > > > > > > > > Excellent > > results were achieved with > > > concrete having > NO > > > > reinforcement. > > There has been limited > > > work done with > > > > prestressed > > concrete and even less > > > done with > reinforced > > > > concrete > and > > ferrocement, which can > > > reasonably be > expected > > > > to > give much > > more efficient and > > > distortion-tolerant > > > > structures. > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > On > 4/11/2014 > > 8:25 PM, hank pronk > > > wrote: > > > > > > A cheap > > alternative to a super > > > strong sphere > hull is > > > > re-enforced > > concrete. I feel like > > > hiding under a > blanket > > > > while > I say > > this,lol. I know it > > > is way out > there, but > > > > concrete > is > > super strong under > > > compression. > It is not > > > > so > good for > > impact resistance. > > > Concrete is a > very easy > > > > material > to work > > with and form into a > > > sphere > shape. I > > > > have > no idea > > what thickness would be > > > needed. > Properly > > > > engineered > I > > would trust it. > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > > list > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Archivale > > catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > Polymath > weblog: > > http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > Translations > > (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > Translations > > (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > Ducted > fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Archivale > catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations > (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations > (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Fri Apr 11 22:49:07 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:49:07 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5348A622.9010706@telus.net> References: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5348A622.9010706@telus.net> Message-ID: <5348A9A3.4040606@archivale.com> Is that yield strength compression only, or tension and compression? If the latter, it is optimistic. The great weakness of un-reinforced Portland cement concrete is of course poor tensile strength. The stiffness, on the other hand, is high, and accounts for good structural stability in concrete structures due to buckling resistance. If it were possible to guarantee pure and consistent compressive stressing, then even sidewalk-grade concrete, with no steel, could be used at very great depths. Marc On 4/12/2014 10:34 AM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > Hank, > > There are countless varieties of concrete, all with different mechanical > properties, so it is difficult to make an effective comparison, but just > for fun, I ran your scenario (6' OD, 4in thick shell) with average > material properties for ordinary concrete, and it turns out it's good to > over 1000 fsw! See below. > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From cast55 at telus.net Fri Apr 11 23:00:53 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 21:00:53 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5348A9A3.4040606@archivale.com> References: <1397243726.61720.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5348A622.9010706@telus.net> <5348A9A3.4040606@archivale.com> Message-ID: <5348AC65.7020608@telus.net> The value used was an average for compressive strength only, which for a featureless spherical shell is a pretty safe bet. Once you start putting holes in it, all bets are off, but this is a theoretical exercise. Such a hull would fail ABS anyway because it doesn't meet the material requirements of 4/3.1, unless under 4/3.5 in conjunction with extensive testing. For the purpose of this exercise, buckling is less of a concern with concrete due to the necessarily high t/D ratio. This applies exclusively to spheres. Cylindrical hulls introduce tensile loads, at which point the low tensile strength of concrete becomes a problem without reinforcement. Sean On 2014-04-11 20:49, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Is that yield strength compression only, or tension and compression? > If the latter, it is optimistic. The great weakness of un-reinforced > Portland cement concrete is of course poor tensile strength. The > stiffness, on the other hand, is high, and accounts for good > structural stability in concrete structures due to buckling resistance. > > If it were possible to guarantee pure and consistent compressive > stressing, then even sidewalk-grade concrete, with no steel, could be > used at very great depths. > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 10:34 AM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> Hank, >> >> There are countless varieties of concrete, all with different mechanical >> properties, so it is difficult to make an effective comparison, but just >> for fun, I ran your scenario (6' OD, 4in thick shell) with average >> material properties for ordinary concrete, and it turns out it's good to >> over 1000 fsw! See below. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 23:48:30 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 20:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: <53489BB8.7030307@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397274510.90563.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

Delta, is essentially a PSUB with a mission and Delta Oceanographic's is the entity.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 02:21:22 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534899EB.4050907@archivale.com> References: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <534899EB.4050907@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397283682.4098.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, >>Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult?....... ? ?Well you are an American of French heritage hiding away on an obscure seldom visited South East Asian Island populated by man hungry women & Moslem rebels. Alan ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of Portland cement cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will help me proselytize new adherents... Marc On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >? Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM > >? I don't have hard numbers, but >? remember that resistance to mostly >? compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most >? practical >? steel structures buckle under compression long before >? reaching their >? actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there >? due to its >? stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer >? to using >? its full compressive strength. > >? That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its >? cost and ease >? of maintenance. > >? Marc > >? PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant >? reports that I >? have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. > >? On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: >? > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would >? be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete.? I would not >? ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. >? But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete >? stands in comparison. >? > Hank >? > -------------------------------------------- >? > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc >? wrote: >? > >? >? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >? >? To: "Personal Submersibles General >? Discussion" >? >? Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 >? AM >? > >? >? A huge amount of work was done on >? >? concrete for pressure-resisting >? structures, including long >? >? term, deep exposure tests, by the US >? Naval Civil Engineering >? >? Laboratory. Most of the reports are >? available for >? >? downloading free of charge from DTIC. >? > >? >? Excellent results were achieved with >? concrete having NO >? >? reinforcement. There has been limited >? work done with >? >? prestressed concrete and even less >? done with reinforced >? >? concrete and ferrocement, which can >? reasonably be expected >? >? to give much more efficient and >? distortion-tolerant >? >? structures. >? > >? >? Marc >? > >? >? On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk >? wrote: >? >? > A cheap alternative to a super >? strong sphere hull is >? >? re-enforced concrete. I feel like >? hiding under a blanket >? >? while I say this,lol.? I know it >? is way out there, but >? >? concrete is super strong under >? compression.? It is not >? >? so good for impact resistance. >? Concrete is a very easy >? >? material to work with and form into a >? sphere shape.? I >? >? have no idea what thickness would be >? needed.? Properly >? >? engineered I would trust it. >? >? > Hank >? >? > >? >? > >? _______________________________________________ >? >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing >? list >? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? > >? > >? >? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >? >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >? >? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >? >? Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >? >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >? >? _______________________________________________ >? >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > >? > >? > _______________________________________________ >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > > >? -- >? Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >? Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >? _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 02:21:58 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397283718.4098.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jon, Test. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems The mail problems for yahoo users is due to more stringent spam control being exercised by YAHOO.? I've cleared everybody's "bounce" count and you can ignore the "bounce" message if you got one.? I've also implemented a software change that should satisfy yahoo and stop the delivery problems.? We'll see. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sat Apr 12 02:56:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 12 Apr 2014 06:56 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic In-Reply-To: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1WYrs5-1Sqjom0@fwd27.t-online.de> Hi Scott, 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? Thanks, Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 05:58:50 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:58:50 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397283682.4098.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397264580.75181.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <534899EB.4050907@archivale.com> <1397283682.4098.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53490E5A.4020202@archivale.com> I never thought of it quite that way. Sheesh, that makes concrete boat advocacy look almost...well, normal. Marc On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James wrote: > Marc, >>>Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult ....... > Well you are an American of French heritage hiding away on an obscure > seldom visited South East Asian Island populated by man hungry women > & Moslem rebels. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:42 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. > > Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of Portland cement > cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will help me > proselytize new adherents... > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Marc, > > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material > cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM > > > > I don't have hard numbers, but > > remember that resistance to mostly > > compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most > > practical > > steel structures buckle under compression long before > > reaching their > > actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there > > due to its > > stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer > > to using > > its full compressive strength. > > > > That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its > > cost and ease > > of maintenance. > > > > Marc > > > > PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant > > reports that I > > have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. > > > > On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would > > be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete. I would not > > ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. > > But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete > > stands in comparison. > > > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > > Discussion" > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 > > AM > > > > > > A huge amount of work was done on > > > concrete for pressure-resisting > > structures, including long > > > term, deep exposure tests, by the US > > Naval Civil Engineering > > > Laboratory. Most of the reports are > > available for > > > downloading free of charge from DTIC. > > > > > > Excellent results were achieved with > > concrete having NO > > > reinforcement. There has been limited > > work done with > > > prestressed concrete and even less > > done with reinforced > > > concrete and ferrocement, which can > > reasonably be expected > > > to give much more efficient and > > distortion-tolerant > > > structures. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > > > A cheap alternative to a super > > strong sphere hull is > > > re-enforced concrete. I feel like > > hiding under a blanket > > > while I say this,lol. I know it > > is way out there, but > > > concrete is super strong under > > compression. It is not > > > so good for impact resistance. > > Concrete is a very easy > > > material to work with and form into a > > sphere shape. I > > > have no idea what thickness would be > > needed. Properly > > > engineered I would trust it. > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 08:40:53 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5348A622.9010706@telus.net> Message-ID: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Sean, Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if re-enforcement is beneficial given the sphere shape. Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under 1,000 dollars. Amazing! Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM Hank, There are countless varieties of concrete, all with different mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an effective comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario (6' OD, 4in thick shell) with average material properties for ordinary concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 fsw!? See below. Sean -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 08:58:36 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 05:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic In-Reply-To: <1WYrs5-1Sqjom0@fwd27.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1397307516.69720.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Carsten, I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an even lighter load on your arm. Hank Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Scott,? 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2? 1000 meter depth = 100 bar? or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic?stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout?just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? ? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From cast55 at telus.net Sat Apr 12 09:37:09 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:37:09 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04bedb7c-ddfa-4e21-a095-e5d98e613659@email.android.com> Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in mesh, and pour a sphere of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber reinforced concrete around it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate bubbles. The shape might be a bit strange, given that your openings need be reinforced with a pad sufficent to replace the material missing in the opening, and your concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build a bunch of them, strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side until failure. Sean On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk wrote: >Hi Sean, >Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, >considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if re-enforcement is beneficial >given the sphere shape. >Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in the >sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under 1,000 >dollars. Amazing! >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM > > > > > > > > Hank, > > > > There are countless varieties of concrete, all with > different > mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an > effective > comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario > (6' OD, 4in > thick shell) with average material properties for > ordinary > concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 > fsw!? See below. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Sat Apr 12 11:20:36 2014 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 11:20:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534959C4.4020806@ohiohills.com> I'm having a mail problem, too, but it's not the same thing. Maybe. I cannot download mail -- the last thing I received was at 9:37 AM Eastern, in the USA. Mail continues to arrive at my ISP (Ohiohills) and is loaded into the online version. I cannot read the online mail sent since then (I can see only titles). I can send mail from offline -- uploading it -- but nothing downloads. I have changed nothing. I've contacted my ISP. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From whitestar456 at manx.net Sat Apr 12 13:30:50 2014 From: whitestar456 at manx.net (Graham Bayliss) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:30:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <5347F2D2.2060805@psubs.org> References: <5347F2D2.2060805@psubs.org> Message-ID: <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> Hi Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion. Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago. It had a good start but stalled soon afterward. That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it. I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter. Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects. Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans. Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished. im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 16:07:08 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> References: <5347F2D2.2060805@psubs.org> <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> Message-ID: <1397333228.58024.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Graham, I'm not quite following the idea, but Hydrospace have made submersibles with inflatable ballast tanks. They used them on their spherical hull subs that open? up like a clam shell. This was to give more freeboard. They did away with them when they changed the entry at the top of the sphere. ? To comply to certification they needed 2 ballast bags on either side. The bags are inside an open ended cylinder, so that when they collapse there is limited drag when going through the water. There are a lot of ready made lift bags on the net with over expansion valves in them. Why not make the ballast tanks out of fiberglass if you are worried about corrosion, or have a large inspection port in the bottom? http://www.seamagine.com/OCEANPEARL2.html Alan ________________________________ From: Graham Bayliss To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 5:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Hi? Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion.? Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago.? It had a good start but stalled soon afterward.? That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it.? I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter.? Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects.? Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans.? Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished.? im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sat Apr 12 16:25:50 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Message-ID: <2122.563b3ba3.407afb4e@aol.com> Hi Graham, If I'm following you correctly, the holes you drill to let the water out will also let water re-enter and compress the bellows as you go deeper and the water pressure increases. That is, the bellows would still be subject to changing volume as your depth changes. It wouldn't function as a VBT (hard tank). However perhaps I'm not clearly understanding your description. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/12/2014 12:31:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, whitestar456 at manx.net writes: Hi Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion. Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago. It had a good start but stalled soon afterward. That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it. I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter. Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects. Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans. Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished. im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Sat Apr 12 18:23:33 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:23:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic References: <1397307516.69720.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101cf569d$d73a4c50$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> How to solve the problem of depth figuring in on the situation is to use double ended cylinders. With a rod of the same size sticking out of each end of each cylinder the effect of water pressure balances out. The force is the same in either direction. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hank pronk" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Hi Carsten, I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an even lighter load on your arm. Hank Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Scott, 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? Thanks, Scott Waters -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Sat Apr 12 18:47:09 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:47:09 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Message-ID: <5gevnmjplus8oi794iok1tbf.1397342797911@email.android.com> Dan, You are brilliant! Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Dan H." wrote:How to solve the problem of depth figuring in on the situation is to use double ended cylinders.? With a rod of the same size sticking out of each end of each cylinder the effect of water pressure balances out.? The force is the same in either direction. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hank pronk" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Hi Carsten, I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an even lighter load on your arm. Hank Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Scott, 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? Thanks, Scott Waters -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 19:13:14 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:13:14 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <04bedb7c-ddfa-4e21-a095-e5d98e613659@email.android.com> References: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <04bedb7c-ddfa-4e21-a095-e5d98e613659@email.android.com> Message-ID: <5349C88A.10301@archivale.com> Fiber-reinforced mortar is very difficult to apply to reinforcement consisting of fine mesh. It's been a subject of discussion on the Ferrocement forum for some time - people wanting the benefit of distributed fiber reinforcement while retaining the advantage of multiple layers of mesh - namely the ability to dispense completely with molds. As for rebar, it has only one function in a ferrocement structure, namely giving the bare armature enough stiffness and strength to hold the weight of the uncured mortar without distortion. In the final structure it actually causes stress concentrations. The US Navy compared FC structures with and without rebar years ago and the latter won hands down in terms of structural efficiency and durability. If you have a mold - male or female - you don't need the rebar. Plain mesh works just fine. Martin Iorns' laminated ferrocement technique also works just fine. In that technique, instead of forcing mortar into multiple layers of mesh, mesh and mortar layers are applied in alternation. And if you have fiber-reinforced mortar and some way to hold it in place while curing, you don't need mesh (though you can still use it, with Iorns' technique)! But with FC we're not talking about pouring the matrix - the panels are too thin to do that reliably, vibrator or no vibrator. Instead, plastering technique has to be used. This is not entirely a bad thing, since it allows half the mold to be dispensed with and gives the applicators a good view of their work, so that they can catch voids and sand pockets in the making and correct them. Marc On 4/12/2014 9:37 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in mesh, and pour a sphere > of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber reinforced concrete around > it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate bubbles. The shape might > be a bit strange, given that your openings need be reinforced with a pad > sufficent to replace the material missing in the opening, and your > concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build a bunch of them, > strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side until failure. > > Sean > > > > On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk > wrote: > > Hi Sean, > Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if re-enforcement is beneficial given the sphere shape. > Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under 1,000 dollars. Amazing! > Hank > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM > > > > > > > > Hank, > > > > There are countless varieties of concrete, all with > different > mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an > effective > comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario > (6' OD, 4in > > thick shell) with average material properties for > ordinary > concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 > fsw! See below. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jumachine at comcast.net Sat Apr 12 19:43:28 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:43:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic References: <5gevnmjplus8oi794iok1tbf.1397342797911@email.android.com> Message-ID: <002801cf56a9$018a5b20$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Nope! Just experienced...... LOL Ben there ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Dan, You are brilliant! Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone "Dan H." wrote: How to solve the problem of depth figuring in on the situation is to use double ended cylinders. With a rod of the same size sticking out of each end of each cylinder the effect of water pressure balances out. The force is the same in either direction. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hank pronk" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Hi Carsten, I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an even lighter load on your arm. Hank Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Scott, 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? Thanks, Scott Waters -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Sat Apr 12 20:06:53 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:06:53 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5349C88A.10301@archivale.com> References: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <04bedb7c-ddfa-4e21-a095-e5d98e613659@email.android.com> <5349C88A.10301@archivale.com> Message-ID: <5349D51D.7010502@telus.net> I wasn't thinking about fine mesh as in the sort of backing you would use as a shotcrete / gunnite form, but rather a large (e.g. 3-4") wire mesh just to discourage cracking. In any case, interesting about the reinforcement actually working against you. I wouldn't have expected that, but then I know only enough about concrete to be dangerous. ;-) I had another thought - could you use two concentric steel spheres of relatively light gauge, that could be spun without too much regard for perfect roundness or shape control, as forms for your concrete, that would remain in place after the pour - the outer one serving as impact protection, and the inner one serving as a base to weld your interior fixtures to? Sean On 2014-04-12 17:13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Fiber-reinforced mortar is very difficult to apply to reinforcement > consisting of fine mesh. It's been a subject of discussion on the > Ferrocement forum for some time - people wanting the benefit of > distributed fiber reinforcement while retaining the advantage of > multiple layers of mesh - namely the ability to dispense completely > with molds. > > As for rebar, it has only one function in a ferrocement structure, > namely giving the bare armature enough stiffness and strength to hold > the weight of the uncured mortar without distortion. In the final > structure it actually causes stress concentrations. The US Navy > compared FC structures with and without rebar years ago and the latter > won hands down in terms of structural efficiency and durability. > > If you have a mold - male or female - you don't need the rebar. Plain > mesh works just fine. Martin Iorns' laminated ferrocement technique > also works just fine. In that technique, instead of forcing mortar > into multiple layers of mesh, mesh and mortar layers are applied in > alternation. And if you have fiber-reinforced mortar and some way to > hold it in place while curing, you don't need mesh (though you can > still use it, with Iorns' technique)! > > But with FC we're not talking about pouring the matrix - the panels > are too thin to do that reliably, vibrator or no vibrator. Instead, > plastering technique has to be used. This is not entirely a bad thing, > since it allows half the mold to be dispensed with and gives the > applicators a good view of their work, so that they can catch voids > and sand pockets in the making and correct them. > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:37 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in mesh, and pour a sphere >> of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber reinforced concrete around >> it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate bubbles. The shape might >> be a bit strange, given that your openings need be reinforced with a pad >> sufficent to replace the material missing in the opening, and your >> concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build a bunch of them, >> strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side until failure. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk >> wrote: >> >> Hi Sean, >> Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, >> considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if re-enforcement is >> beneficial given the sphere shape. >> Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in >> the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under >> 1,000 dollars. Amazing! >> Hank >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hank, >> >> >> >> There are countless varieties of concrete, all with >> different >> mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an >> effective >> comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario >> (6' OD, 4in >> >> thick shell) with average material properties for >> ordinary >> concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 >> fsw! See below. >> >> >> >> Sean From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 20:43:04 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5349D51D.7010502@telus.net> Message-ID: <1397349784.17066.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I would make a mould and pour the concrete. We pump concrete into Styrofoam forms all the time and they are plumb full of re-bar. The local batch plant and I experimented to find a perfect mix. They deliver a 4in slump 35mpa mix with 3/8 aggregate and lots of flyash. When the truck arrives we add plasticizer to make the mix into a 6in slump,and it flows like water and does not plug up the 2in line. The plasticizer lasts for 20 min and does not weaken the mix like adding water would. Building a sphere mold would be easy peezy. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 8:06 PM I wasn't thinking about fine mesh as in the sort of backing you would use as a shotcrete / gunnite form, but rather a large (e.g. 3-4") wire mesh just to discourage cracking.? In any case, interesting about the reinforcement actually working against you.? I wouldn't have expected that, but then I know only enough about concrete to be dangerous. ;-)? ? I had another thought - could you use two concentric steel spheres of relatively light gauge, that could be spun without too much regard for perfect roundness or shape control, as forms for your concrete, that would remain in place after the pour - the outer one serving as impact protection, and the inner one serving as a base to weld your interior fixtures to? Sean On 2014-04-12 17:13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Fiber-reinforced mortar is very difficult to apply to reinforcement > consisting of fine mesh. It's been a subject of discussion on the > Ferrocement forum for some time - people wanting the benefit of > distributed fiber reinforcement while retaining the advantage of > multiple layers of mesh - namely the ability to dispense completely > with molds. > > As for rebar, it has only one function in a ferrocement structure, > namely giving the bare armature enough stiffness and strength to hold > the weight of the uncured mortar without distortion. In the final > structure it actually causes stress concentrations. The US Navy > compared FC structures with and without rebar years ago and the latter > won hands down in terms of structural efficiency and durability. > > If you have a mold - male or female - you don't need the rebar. Plain > mesh works just fine. Martin Iorns' laminated ferrocement technique > also works just fine. In that technique, instead of forcing mortar > into multiple layers of mesh, mesh and mortar layers are applied in > alternation. And if you have fiber-reinforced mortar and some way to > hold it in place while curing, you don't need mesh (though you can > still use it, with Iorns' technique)! > > But with FC we're not talking about pouring the matrix - the panels > are too thin to do that reliably, vibrator or no vibrator. Instead, > plastering technique has to be used. This is not entirely a bad thing, > since it allows half the mold to be dispensed with and gives the > applicators a good view of their work, so that they can catch voids > and sand pockets in the making and correct them. > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:37 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in mesh, and pour a sphere >> of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber reinforced concrete around >> it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate bubbles. The shape might >> be a bit strange, given that your openings need be reinforced with a pad >> sufficent to replace the material missing in the opening, and your >> concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build a bunch of them, >> strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side until failure. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk >> wrote: >> >>? ???Hi Sean, >>? ???Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, >> considering it is only 30mpa.? I wonder if re-enforcement is >> beneficial given the sphere shape. >>? ???Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in >> the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under >> 1,000 dollars.? Amazing! >>? ???Hank >>? ? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>? ???On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >> >>? ? ???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>? ? ???To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >>? ? ???Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? ???Hank, >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ???There are countless varieties of concrete, all with >>? ? ???different >>? ? ? ? ? ???mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an >>? ? ???effective >>? ? ? ? ? ???comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario >>? ? ???(6' OD, 4in >> >>? ???thick shell) with average material properties for >>? ? ???ordinary >>? ? ? ? ? ???concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 >>? ? ???fsw!? See below. >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ???Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 20:49:21 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> Message-ID: <1397350161.65727.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Grayham, I see two problems with your idea, first the bellows will be dragging against the tubes causing them to wear at the edges. The second problem may be balance. You will be pushing water out from one end with a bellows causing the sub to tip until the bellows is extended. Once extended it will be level again. That may not matter depending on the size of bellows. Why wouldn't you use a bag that expands inside the tube, it would be self leveling and would not have the wearing problem. I bought a set of ballast bags for a wake boat to try your idea out. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Graham Bayliss wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 1:30 PM Hi? Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion.? Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago.? It had a good start but stalled soon afterward.? That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it.? I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter.? Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects.? Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans.? Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished.? im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 20:58:47 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <53490E5A.4020202@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397350727.12178.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, If I am not mistaken, the strongest concrete mix uses 3/4in fractured rock with sand, Portland and water. I would think a sand mix without rock would not be as strong. Also think of the skill you would need to trowel a sphere. Anyways it is pretty crazy what Sean has shown us with the calculations. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 5:58 AM I never thought of it quite that way. Sheesh, that makes concrete boat advocacy look almost...well, normal. Marc On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James wrote: > Marc, >>>Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult ....... >? ???Well you are an American of French heritage hiding away on an obscure > seldom visited South East Asian Island populated by man hungry women > & Moslem rebels. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:42 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. > > Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of Portland cement > cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports will help me > proselytize new adherents... > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: >? > Marc, >? > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so easy to form. The material > cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not thousands. Hank >? > -------------------------------------------- >? > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: >? > >? >? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >? >? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > >? >? Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 PM >? > >? >? I don't have hard numbers, but >? >? remember that resistance to mostly >? >? compressive loading is a structural STABILITY problem. Most >? >? practical >? >? steel structures buckle under compression long before >? >? reaching their >? >? actual compression limit. Concrete has an advantage there >? >? due to its >? >? stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest that it comes much closer >? >? to using >? >? its full compressive strength. >? > >? >? That said, my primary interest in concrete is due to its >? >? cost and ease >? >? of maintenance. >? > >? >? Marc >? > >? >? PS. If anybody is interested, I will add the relevant >? >? reports that I >? >? have to my public Dropbox folder and post the link. >? > >? >? On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk wrote: >? >? > A six foot od sphere built in 1.25in thick steel would >? >? be equal in weight to 4in thick concrete.? I would not >? >? ever expect 4in concrete to compare to 1.25 steel. >? >? But, it would be interesting to know where the concrete >? >? stands in comparison. >? >? > Hank >? >? > -------------------------------------------- >? >? > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > >? >? wrote: >? >? > >? >? >? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >? >? >? To: "Personal Submersibles General >? >? Discussion" > >? >? >? Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 9:59 >? >? AM >? >? > >? >? >? A huge amount of work was done on >? >? >? concrete for pressure-resisting >? >? structures, including long >? >? >? term, deep exposure tests, by the US >? >? Naval Civil Engineering >? >? >? Laboratory. Most of the reports are >? >? available for >? >? >? downloading free of charge from DTIC. >? >? > >? >? >? Excellent results were achieved with >? >? concrete having NO >? >? >? reinforcement. There has been limited >? >? work done with >? >? >? prestressed concrete and even less >? >? done with reinforced >? >? >? concrete and ferrocement, which can >? >? reasonably be expected >? >? >? to give much more efficient and >? >? distortion-tolerant >? >? >? structures. >? >? > >? >? > Marc >? >? > >? >? >? On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank pronk >? >? wrote: >? >? >? > A cheap alternative to a super >? >? strong sphere hull is >? >? >? re-enforced concrete. I feel like >? >? hiding under a blanket >? >? >? while I say this,lol.? I know it >? >? is way out there, but >? >? >? concrete is super strong under >? >? compression.? It is not >? >? >? so good for impact resistance. >? >? Concrete is a very easy >? >? >? material to work with and form into a >? >? sphere shape.? I >? >? >? have no idea what thickness would be >? >? needed.? Properly >? >? >? engineered I would trust it. >? >? >? > Hank >? >? >? > >? >? >? > >? >? _______________________________________________ >? >? >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing >? >? list >? >? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? >? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >? > >? >? > >? >? >? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >? >? >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >? >? >? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >? >? >? Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >? >? >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >? >? >? _______________________________________________ >? >? >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >? >? > >? >? > >? >? > _______________________________________________ >? >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? > >? > >? >? -- >? >? Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >? >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >? >? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >? >? Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >? >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >? >? _______________________________________________ >? >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > >? > >? > _______________________________________________ >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From cast55 at telus.net Sat Apr 12 21:04:50 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:04:50 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397349784.17066.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397349784.17066.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5349E2B2.4030308@telus.net> Do you have the mechanical properties for that particular concrete? (elastic modulus, Poisson's ratio, density)? Sean On 2014-04-12 18:43, hank pronk wrote: > I would make a mould and pour the concrete. We pump concrete into Styrofoam forms all the time and they are plumb full of re-bar. The local batch plant and I experimented to find a perfect mix. They deliver a 4in slump 35mpa mix with 3/8 aggregate and lots of flyash. When the truck arrives we add plasticizer to make the mix into a 6in slump,and it flows like water and does not plug up the 2in line. The plasticizer lasts for 20 min and does not weaken the mix like adding water would. Building a sphere mold would be easy peezy. > Hank From cast55 at telus.net Sat Apr 12 21:10:20 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:10:20 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine In-Reply-To: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140411121659.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.453bd9bd3b.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <5349E3FC.8080504@telus.net> I just wanted to point out that with a single-rod double-acting cylinder, the flow out is not equivalent to the flow in for any given stroke, owing to the unequal areas as a result of the rod on one side. The only way this would work is to connect head end to head end, rod end to rod end, in which case the direction of stroke would be reversed. Alternatively, a cylinder with a rod on each side would eliminate both that problem and the pressure compensation problem. Sean On 2014-04-11 13:16, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > I have a question maybe someone can answer. > If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with > oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on > outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to > the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow > of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one > cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface > function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more > force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 21:11:06 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5349E2B2.4030308@telus.net> Message-ID: <1397351466.31735.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sean, All I have it the formula, and a test sample was sent away for testing by the batch plant. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 9:04 PM Do you have the mechanical properties for that particular concrete? (elastic modulus, Poisson's ratio, density)? Sean On 2014-04-12 18:43, hank pronk wrote: > I would make a mould and pour the concrete.? We pump concrete into Styrofoam forms all the time and they are plumb full of re-bar.? The local batch plant and I experimented to find a perfect mix.? They deliver a 4in slump 35mpa mix with 3/8 aggregate and lots of flyash.? When the truck arrives we add plasticizer to make the mix into a 6in slump,and it flows like water and does not plug up the 2in line.? The plasticizer lasts for 20 min and does not weaken the mix like adding water would.? Building a sphere mold would be easy peezy. > Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 21:52:06 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> Message-ID: <1397353926.1123.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Graham, You didn't mention if you are mounting these tubes horizontal or vertical. If they are vertical, disregard what I said. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Graham Bayliss wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 1:30 PM Hi? Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion.? Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago.? It had a good start but stalled soon afterward.? That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it.? I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter.? Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects.? Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans.? Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished.? im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 22:27:07 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:27:07 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5349D51D.7010502@telus.net> References: <1397306453.49788.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <04bedb7c-ddfa-4e21-a095-e5d98e613659@email.android.com> <5349C88A.10301@archivale.com> <5349D51D.7010502@telus.net> Message-ID: <5349F5FB.7080708@archivale.com> Why not? But again you're talking about pouring, which means you are limiting yourself to very thick walls. Okay for a homebrew bathyscaphe, I guess... It would be fun to test this on a small scale, though... Marc On 4/13/2014 8:06 AM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > I wasn't thinking about fine mesh as in the sort of backing you would > use as a shotcrete / gunnite form, but rather a large (e.g. 3-4") wire > mesh just to discourage cracking. In any case, interesting about the > reinforcement actually working against you. I wouldn't have expected > that, but then I know only enough about concrete to be dangerous. > ;-) I had another thought - could you use two concentric steel > spheres of relatively light gauge, that could be spun without too much > regard for perfect roundness or shape control, as forms for your > concrete, that would remain in place after the pour - the outer one > serving as impact protection, and the inner one serving as a base to > weld your interior fixtures to? > > Sean > > > On 2014-04-12 17:13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> Fiber-reinforced mortar is very difficult to apply to reinforcement >> consisting of fine mesh. It's been a subject of discussion on the >> Ferrocement forum for some time - people wanting the benefit of >> distributed fiber reinforcement while retaining the advantage of >> multiple layers of mesh - namely the ability to dispense completely >> with molds. >> >> As for rebar, it has only one function in a ferrocement structure, >> namely giving the bare armature enough stiffness and strength to hold >> the weight of the uncured mortar without distortion. In the final >> structure it actually causes stress concentrations. The US Navy >> compared FC structures with and without rebar years ago and the latter >> won hands down in terms of structural efficiency and durability. >> >> If you have a mold - male or female - you don't need the rebar. Plain >> mesh works just fine. Martin Iorns' laminated ferrocement technique >> also works just fine. In that technique, instead of forcing mortar >> into multiple layers of mesh, mesh and mortar layers are applied in >> alternation. And if you have fiber-reinforced mortar and some way to >> hold it in place while curing, you don't need mesh (though you can >> still use it, with Iorns' technique)! >> >> But with FC we're not talking about pouring the matrix - the panels >> are too thin to do that reliably, vibrator or no vibrator. Instead, >> plastering technique has to be used. This is not entirely a bad thing, >> since it allows half the mold to be dispensed with and gives the >> applicators a good view of their work, so that they can catch voids >> and sand pockets in the making and correct them. >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/12/2014 9:37 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >>> Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in mesh, and pour a sphere >>> of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber reinforced concrete around >>> it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate bubbles. The shape might >>> be a bit strange, given that your openings need be reinforced with a pad >>> sufficent to replace the material missing in the opening, and your >>> concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build a bunch of them, >>> strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side until failure. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Sean, >>> Thank you for the calculation. That figure is quite interesting, >>> considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if re-enforcement is >>> beneficial given the sphere shape. >>> Imagine if you could figure out a safe way to make an opening in >>> the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a hull for under >>> 1,000 dollars. Amazing! >>> Hank >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> >>> >>> >>> There are countless varieties of concrete, all with >>> different >>> mechanical properties, so it is difficult to make an >>> effective >>> comparison, but just for fun, I ran your scenario >>> (6' OD, 4in >>> >>> thick shell) with average material properties for >>> ordinary >>> concrete, and it turns out it's good to over 1000 >>> fsw! See below. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 22:27:45 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic In-Reply-To: <001101cf569d$d73a4c50$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1397307516.69720.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001101cf569d$d73a4c50$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1397356065.99631.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Wow, I hadn't thought of that either. What a gem. You could use that for pneumatic cylinders also. Alan ________________________________ From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic How to solve the problem of depth figuring in on the situation is to use double ended cylinders.? With a rod of the same size sticking out of each end of each cylinder the effect of water pressure balances out.? The force is the same in either direction. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hank pronk" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic Hi Carsten, I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an even lighter load on your arm. Hank Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Scott, 1 bar = 0,1 N/mm2 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 (or 1 kg/mm2) A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 mm2 means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is 1267 N or 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. If you make a drawing of your schematic you will see that it is not selfcompensating. Means you need a inside force of that amout just to compensate. If you asume you can take a pressure of 0,013 ts with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to be the 10 times more diameter thn the outside one. By the way the same force works on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. vbr Carsten schrieb: I have a question maybe someone can answer. If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely filled with oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a submarine and on outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side connected to the head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the flow of one makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the one cylinder that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface function the same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force you would have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? Thanks, Scott Waters -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 22:28:26 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:28:26 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397349784.17066.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397349784.17066.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5349F64A.7010500@archivale.com> Amazing. You don't get any segregation of the aggregate? Marc On 4/13/2014 8:43 AM, hank pronk wrote: > I would make a mould and pour the concrete. We pump concrete into Styrofoam forms all the time and they are plumb full of re-bar. The local batch plant and I experimented to find a perfect mix. They deliver a 4in slump 35mpa mix with 3/8 aggregate and lots of flyash. When the truck arrives we add plasticizer to make the mix into a 6in slump,and it flows like water and does not plug up the 2in line. The plasticizer lasts for 20 min and does not weaken the mix like adding water would. Building a sphere mold would be easy peezy. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/12/14, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 8:06 PM > > I wasn't thinking about fine mesh as > in the sort of backing you would > use as a shotcrete / gunnite form, but rather a large (e.g. > 3-4") wire > mesh just to discourage cracking. In any case, > interesting about the > reinforcement actually working against you. I wouldn't > have expected > that, but then I know only enough about concrete to be > dangerous. > ;-) I had another thought - could you use two > concentric steel > spheres of relatively light gauge, that could be spun > without too much > regard for perfect roundness or shape control, as forms for > your > concrete, that would remain in place after the pour - the > outer one > serving as impact protection, and the inner one serving as a > base to > weld your interior fixtures to? > > Sean > > > On 2014-04-12 17:13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Fiber-reinforced mortar is very difficult to apply to > reinforcement > > consisting of fine mesh. It's been a subject of > discussion on the > > Ferrocement forum for some time - people wanting the > benefit of > > distributed fiber reinforcement while retaining the > advantage of > > multiple layers of mesh - namely the ability to > dispense completely > > with molds. > > > > As for rebar, it has only one function in a ferrocement > structure, > > namely giving the bare armature enough stiffness and > strength to hold > > the weight of the uncured mortar without distortion. In > the final > > structure it actually causes stress concentrations. The > US Navy > > compared FC structures with and without rebar years ago > and the latter > > won hands down in terms of structural efficiency and > durability. > > > > If you have a mold - male or female - you don't need > the rebar. Plain > > mesh works just fine. Martin Iorns' laminated > ferrocement technique > > also works just fine. In that technique, instead of > forcing mortar > > into multiple layers of mesh, mesh and mortar layers > are applied in > > alternation. And if you have fiber-reinforced mortar > and some way to > > hold it in place while curing, you don't need mesh > (though you can > > still use it, with Iorns' technique)! > > > > But with FC we're not talking about pouring the matrix > - the panels > > are too thin to do that reliably, vibrator or no > vibrator. Instead, > > plastering technique has to be used. This is not > entirely a bad thing, > > since it allows half the mold to be dispensed with and > gives the > > applicators a good view of their work, so that they can > catch voids > > and sand pockets in the making and correct them. > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/12/2014 9:37 PM, Sean T. Stevenson wrote: > >> Build a geodesic dome out of rebar, cover it in > mesh, and pour a sphere > >> of ultra high strength (no aggregate) fiber > reinforced concrete around > >> it, vibrating the hell out of it to eliminate > bubbles. The shape might > >> be a bit strange, given that your openings need be > reinforced with a pad > >> sufficent to replace the material missing in the > opening, and your > >> concrete shell is quite thick. You'd have to build > a bunch of them, > >> strain gauge them all, and lower them over the side > until failure. > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> > >> On April 12, 2014 6:40:53 AM MDT, hank pronk > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Sean, > >> Thank you for the > calculation. That figure is quite interesting, > >> considering it is only 30mpa. I wonder if > re-enforcement is > >> beneficial given the sphere shape. > >> Imagine if you could figure > out a safe way to make an opening in > >> the sphere for ports and hatch, you could build a > hull for under > >> 1,000 dollars. Amazing! > >> Hank > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> On Fri, 4/11/14, Sean T. > Stevenson > wrote: > >> > >> Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > >> To: "Personal > Submersibles General Discussion" > >> > >> Received: Friday, > April 11, 2014, 10:34 PM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hank, > >> > >> > >> > >> > There are countless varieties of concrete, > all with > >> different > >> > mechanical properties, so it is difficult > to make an > >> effective > >> > comparison, but just for fun, I ran your > scenario > >> (6' OD, 4in > >> > >> thick shell) with average > material properties for > >> ordinary > >> > concrete, and it turns out it's good to > over 1000 > >> fsw! See > below. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 22:40:58 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:40:58 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397350727.12178.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397350727.12178.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5349F93A.6010203@archivale.com> Actually, all else being equal, using only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to show off the aggregate. You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly with the matrix long after cure. Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this effect. Best, Marc de Piolenc Ferrocement freak On 4/13/2014 8:58 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > If I am not mistaken, the strongest concrete mix uses 3/4in fractured rock with sand, Portland and water. I would think a sand mix without rock would not be as strong. Also think of the skill you would need to trowel a sphere. Anyways it is pretty crazy what Sean has shown us with the calculations. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 5:58 AM > > I never thought of it quite that way. > Sheesh, that makes concrete boat > advocacy look almost...well, normal. > > Marc > > On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James wrote: > > Marc, > >>>Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant > cult ....... > > Well you are an American of > French heritage hiding away on an obscure > > seldom visited South East Asian Island populated by man > hungry women > > & Moslem rebels. > > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:42 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. > > > > Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of > Portland cement > > cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports > will help me > > proselytize new adherents... > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > > Marc, > > > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so > easy to form. The material > > cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not > thousands. Hank > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 > PM > > > > > > I don't have hard numbers, but > > > remember that resistance to mostly > > > compressive loading is a structural > STABILITY problem. Most > > > practical > > > steel structures buckle under > compression long before > > > reaching their > > > actual compression limit. Concrete has > an advantage there > > > due to its > > > stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest > that it comes much closer > > > to using > > > its full compressive strength. > > > > > > That said, my primary interest in > concrete is due to its > > > cost and ease > > > of maintenance. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > PS. If anybody is interested, I will > add the relevant > > > reports that I > > > have to my public Dropbox folder and > post the link. > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > > A six foot od sphere built in > 1.25in thick steel would > > > be equal in weight to 4in thick > concrete. I would not > > > ever expect 4in concrete to compare to > 1.25 steel. > > > But, it would be interesting to know > where the concrete > > > stands in comparison. > > > > Hank > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > To: "Personal Submersibles > General > > > Discussion" > > > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, > 2014, 9:59 > > > AM > > > > > > > > A huge amount of work was > done on > > > > concrete for > pressure-resisting > > > structures, including long > > > > term, deep exposure tests, > by the US > > > Naval Civil Engineering > > > > Laboratory. Most of the > reports are > > > available for > > > > downloading free of charge > from DTIC. > > > > > > > > Excellent results were > achieved with > > > concrete having NO > > > > reinforcement. There has > been limited > > > work done with > > > > prestressed concrete and > even less > > > done with reinforced > > > > concrete and ferrocement, > which can > > > reasonably be expected > > > > to give much more efficient > and > > > distortion-tolerant > > > > structures. > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank > pronk > > > wrote: > > > > > A cheap alternative to > a super > > > strong sphere hull is > > > > re-enforced concrete. I > feel like > > > hiding under a blanket > > > > while I say this,lol. > I know it > > > is way out there, but > > > > concrete is super strong > under > > > compression. It is not > > > > so good for impact > resistance. > > > Concrete is a very easy > > > > material to work with and > form into a > > > sphere shape. I > > > > have no idea what thickness > would be > > > needed. Properly > > > > engineered I would trust > it. > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing > > > list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > Translations (ProZ > profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > Translations (BeWords > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 12 22:55:29 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <5349F93A.6010203@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very scientific .lol Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM Actually, all else being equal, using only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to show off the aggregate. You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly with the matrix long after cure. Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this effect. Best, Marc de Piolenc Ferrocement freak On 4/13/2014 8:58 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > If I am not mistaken, the strongest concrete mix uses 3/4in fractured rock with sand, Portland and water.? I would think a sand mix without rock? would not be as strong.? Also think of the skill you would need to trowel a sphere.? Anyways it is pretty crazy what Sean has shown us with the calculations. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >???Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >???Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 5:58 AM > >???I never thought of it quite that way. >???Sheesh, that makes concrete boat >???advocacy look almost...well, normal. > >???Marc > >???On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James wrote: >???> Marc, >???>>>Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant >???cult ....... >???>? ???Well you are an American of >???French heritage hiding away on an obscure >???> seldom visited South East Asian Island populated by man >???hungry women >???> & Moslem rebels. >???> Alan >???> >???> >???------------------------------------------------------------------------ >???> *From:* Marc de Piolenc >???> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >???> *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:42 PM >???> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???> >???> I think I will post those reports to Dropbox. >???> >???> Right now I feel like I'm one of a tiny deviant cult of >???Portland cement >???> cultists within the psubs community. Maybe the reports >???will help me >???> proselytize new adherents... >???> >???> Marc >???> >???> On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk wrote: >???>? > Marc, >???>? > Not only is it dirt cheap, concrete is so >???easy to form. The material >???> cost for a 6 foot sphere is in the hundreds, not >???thousands. Hank >???>? > >???-------------------------------------------- >???>? > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc ???> > >???wrote: >???>? > >???>? >? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???>? >? To: "Personal Submersibles General >???Discussion" >???> ???> >???>? >? Received: Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 >???PM >???>? > >???>? >? I don't have hard numbers, but >???>? >? remember that resistance to mostly >???>? >? compressive loading is a structural >???STABILITY problem. Most >???>? >? practical >???>? >? steel structures buckle under >???compression long before >???>? >? reaching their >???>? >? actual compression limit. Concrete has >???an advantage there >???>? >? due to its >???>? >? stiffness - the NCEL tests suggest >???that it comes much closer >???>? >? to using >???>? >? its full compressive strength. >???>? > >???>? >? That said, my primary interest in >???concrete is due to its >???>? >? cost and ease >???>? >? of maintenance. >???>? > >???>? >? Marc >???>? > >???>? >? PS. If anybody is interested, I will >???add the relevant >???>? >? reports that I >???>? >? have to my public Dropbox folder and >???post the link. >???>? > >???>? >? On 4/12/2014 3:15 AM, hank pronk >???wrote: >???>? >? > A six foot od sphere built in >???1.25in thick steel would >???>? >? be equal in weight to 4in thick >???concrete.? I would not >???>? >? ever expect 4in concrete to compare to >???1.25 steel. >???>? >? But, it would be interesting to know >???where the concrete >???>? >? stands in comparison. >???>? >? > Hank >???>? >? > >???-------------------------------------------- >???>? >? > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc >??????> > >???>? >? wrote: >???>? >? > >???>? >? >? Subject: Re: >???[PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >???>? >? >? To: "Personal Submersibles >???General >???>? >? Discussion" ???> > >???>? >? >? Received: Friday, April 11, >???2014, 9:59 >???>? >? AM >???>? >? > >???>? >? >? A huge amount of work was >???done on >???>? >? >? concrete for >???pressure-resisting >???>? >? structures, including long >???>? >? >? term, deep exposure tests, >???by the US >???>? >? Naval Civil Engineering >???>? >? >? Laboratory. Most of the >???reports are >???>? >? available for >???>? >? >? downloading free of charge >???from DTIC. >???>? >? > >???>? >? >? Excellent results were >???achieved with >???>? >? concrete having NO >???>? >? >? reinforcement. There has >???been limited >???>? >? work done with >???>? >? >? prestressed concrete and >???even less >???>? >? done with reinforced >???>? >? >? concrete and ferrocement, >???which can >???>? >? reasonably be expected >???>? >? >? to give much more efficient >???and >???>? >? distortion-tolerant >???>? >? >? structures. >???>? >? > >???>? >? > Marc >???>? >? > >???>? >? >? On 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank >???pronk >???>? >? wrote: >???>? >? >? > A cheap alternative to >???a super >???>? >? strong sphere hull is >???>? >? >? re-enforced concrete. I >???feel like >???>? >? hiding under a blanket >???>? >? >? while I say this,lol. >???I know it >???>? >? is way out there, but >???>? >? >? concrete is super strong >???under >???>? >? compression.? It is not >???>? >? >? so good for impact >???resistance. >???>? >? Concrete is a very easy >???>? >? >? material to work with and >???form into a >???>? >? sphere shape.? I >???>? >? >? have no idea what thickness >???would be >???>? >? needed.? Properly >???>? >? >? engineered I would trust >???it. >???>? >? >? > Hank >???>? >? >? > >???>? >? >? > >???>? > >???_______________________________________________ >???>? >? >? > Personal_Submersibles >???mailing >???>? >? list >???>? >? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> >???>? >? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>? >? >? > >???>? >? > >???>? >? >? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???>? >? >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???>? >? >? Translations (ProZ >???profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???>? >? >? Translations (BeWords >???profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???>? >? >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???>? >? > >???_______________________________________________ >???>? >? >? Personal_Submersibles >???mailing list >???>? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> >???>? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> >???>? >? > >???>? >? > >???>? >? > >???_______________________________________________ >???>? >? > Personal_Submersibles mailing >???list >???>? >? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> >???>? >? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>? >? > >???>? > >???>? >? -- >???>? >? Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???>? >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???>? >? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???>? >? Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???>? >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???>? > >???_______________________________________________ >???>? >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???>? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >??? >???>? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>? > >???>? > >???>? > >???_______________________________________________ >???>? > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???>? > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >??? >???>? > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???>? > >???> >???> -- >???> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???> _______________________________________________ >???> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >??? >???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> >???> >???> >???> >???> _______________________________________________ >???> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >???> > >???-- >???Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >???Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >???Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >???Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >???Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >???_______________________________________________ >???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 23:06:51 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 11:06:51 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5349FF4B.4060006@archivale.com> Thanks - good to know. Marc On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" > Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. > That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very scientific .lol > > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM > > Actually, all else being equal, using > only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse > aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as > bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect > in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to > show off the aggregate. > > You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, > to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert > with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate > will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly > with the matrix long after cure. > > Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of > fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a > super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that > the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING > cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. > Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement > on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this > effect. > > Best, > Marc de Piolenc > Ferrocement freak > > On 4/13/2014 8:58 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Marc, > > If I am not mistaken, the strongest concrete mix uses > 3/4in fractured rock with sand, Portland and water. I > would think a sand mix without rock would not be as > strong. Also think of the skill you would need to > trowel a sphere. Anyways it is pretty crazy what Sean > has shown us with the calculations. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, > 5:58 AM > > > > I never thought of it quite that way. > > Sheesh, that makes concrete boat > > advocacy look almost...well, normal. > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James > wrote: > > > Marc, > > >>>Right now I feel like I'm > one of a tiny deviant > > cult ....... > > > Well you > are an American of > > French heritage hiding away on an > obscure > > > seldom visited South East Asian > Island populated by man > > hungry women > > > & Moslem rebels. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 > 1:42 PM > > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] > concrete > > > > > > I think I will post those reports > to Dropbox. > > > > > > Right now I feel like I'm one of > a tiny deviant cult of > > Portland cement > > > cultists within the psubs > community. Maybe the reports > > will help me > > > proselytize new adherents... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > > Marc, > > > > Not only is it dirt > cheap, concrete is so > > easy to form. The material > > > cost for a 6 foot sphere is in > the hundreds, not > > thousands. Hank > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc > de Piolenc > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > To: "Personal > Submersibles General > > Discussion" > > > > > > > > > Received: > Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 > > PM > > > > > > > > I don't have > hard numbers, but > > > > remember that > resistance to mostly > > > > compressive > loading is a structural > > STABILITY problem. Most > > > > practical > > > > steel structures > buckle under > > compression long before > > > > reaching their > > > > actual > compression limit. Concrete has > > an advantage there > > > > due to its > > > > stiffness - the > NCEL tests suggest > > that it comes much closer > > > > to using > > > > its full > compressive strength. > > > > > > > > That said, my > primary interest in > > concrete is due to its > > > > cost and ease > > > > of maintenance. > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > PS. If anybody > is interested, I will > > add the relevant > > > > reports that I > > > > have to my > public Dropbox folder and > > post the link. > > > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 > 3:15 AM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > > > > A six foot > od sphere built in > > 1.25in thick steel would > > > > be equal in > weight to 4in thick > > concrete. I would not > > > > ever expect 4in > concrete to compare to > > 1.25 steel. > > > > But, it would be > interesting to know > > where the concrete > > > > stands in > comparison. > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > On Fri, > 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > > To: > "Personal Submersibles > > General > > > > Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, > > 2014, 9:59 > > > > AM > > > > > > > > > > A > huge amount of work was > > done on > > > > > > concrete for > > pressure-resisting > > > > structures, > including long > > > > > term, > deep exposure tests, > > by the US > > > > Naval Civil > Engineering > > > > > > Laboratory. Most of the > > reports are > > > > available for > > > > > > downloading free of charge > > from DTIC. > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent results were > > achieved with > > > > concrete having > NO > > > > > > reinforcement. There has > > been limited > > > > work done with > > > > > > prestressed concrete and > > even less > > > > done with > reinforced > > > > > > concrete and ferrocement, > > which can > > > > reasonably be > expected > > > > > to > give much more efficient > > and > > > > > distortion-tolerant > > > > > > structures. > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > On > 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank > > pronk > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > A cheap alternative to > > a super > > > > strong sphere > hull is > > > > > > re-enforced concrete. I > > feel like > > > > hiding under a > blanket > > > > > while > I say this,lol. > > I know it > > > > is way out > there, but > > > > > > concrete is super strong > > under > > > > > compression. It is not > > > > > so > good for impact > > resistance. > > > > Concrete is a > very easy > > > > > > material to work with and > > form into a > > > > sphere > shape. I > > > > > have > no idea what thickness > > would be > > > > needed. > Properly > > > > > > engineered I would trust > > it. > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing > > > > list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > > > Translations (ProZ > > profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > > > Translations (BeWords > > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Archivale > catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > Translations > (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > Translations > (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Apr 12 23:52:59 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 11:52:59 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534A0A1B.5060305@archivale.com> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. Marc On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Marc, > We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" > Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. > That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very scientific .lol > > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM > > Actually, all else being equal, using > only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse > aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as > bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect > in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to > show off the aggregate. > > You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, > to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert > with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate > will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly > with the matrix long after cure. > > Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of > fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a > super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that > the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING > cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. > Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement > on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this > effect. > > Best, > Marc de Piolenc > Ferrocement freak > > On 4/13/2014 8:58 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > Marc, > > If I am not mistaken, the strongest concrete mix uses > 3/4in fractured rock with sand, Portland and water. I > would think a sand mix without rock would not be as > strong. Also think of the skill you would need to > trowel a sphere. Anyways it is pretty crazy what Sean > has shown us with the calculations. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, > 5:58 AM > > > > I never thought of it quite that way. > > Sheesh, that makes concrete boat > > advocacy look almost...well, normal. > > > > Marc > > > > On 4/12/2014 2:21 PM, Alan James > wrote: > > > Marc, > > >>>Right now I feel like I'm > one of a tiny deviant > > cult ....... > > > Well you > are an American of > > French heritage hiding away on an > obscure > > > seldom visited South East Asian > Island populated by man > > hungry women > > > & Moslem rebels. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 > 1:42 PM > > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] > concrete > > > > > > I think I will post those reports > to Dropbox. > > > > > > Right now I feel like I'm one of > a tiny deviant cult of > > Portland cement > > > cultists within the psubs > community. Maybe the reports > > will help me > > > proselytize new adherents... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 9:03 AM, hank pronk > wrote: > > > > Marc, > > > > Not only is it dirt > cheap, concrete is so > > easy to form. The material > > > cost for a 6 foot sphere is in > the hundreds, not > > thousands. Hank > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, 4/11/14, Marc > de Piolenc > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > To: "Personal > Submersibles General > > Discussion" > > > > > > > > > Received: > Friday, April 11, 2014, 8:26 > > PM > > > > > > > > I don't have > hard numbers, but > > > > remember that > resistance to mostly > > > > compressive > loading is a structural > > STABILITY problem. Most > > > > practical > > > > steel structures > buckle under > > compression long before > > > > reaching their > > > > actual > compression limit. Concrete has > > an advantage there > > > > due to its > > > > stiffness - the > NCEL tests suggest > > that it comes much closer > > > > to using > > > > its full > compressive strength. > > > > > > > > That said, my > primary interest in > > concrete is due to its > > > > cost and ease > > > > of maintenance. > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > PS. If anybody > is interested, I will > > add the relevant > > > > reports that I > > > > have to my > public Dropbox folder and > > post the link. > > > > > > > > On 4/12/2014 > 3:15 AM, hank pronk > > wrote: > > > > > A six foot > od sphere built in > > 1.25in thick steel would > > > > be equal in > weight to 4in thick > > concrete. I would not > > > > ever expect 4in > concrete to compare to > > 1.25 steel. > > > > But, it would be > interesting to know > > where the concrete > > > > stands in > comparison. > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > On Fri, > 4/11/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > > > > To: > "Personal Submersibles > > General > > > > Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > Received: Friday, April 11, > > 2014, 9:59 > > > > AM > > > > > > > > > > A > huge amount of work was > > done on > > > > > > concrete for > > pressure-resisting > > > > structures, > including long > > > > > term, > deep exposure tests, > > by the US > > > > Naval Civil > Engineering > > > > > > Laboratory. Most of the > > reports are > > > > available for > > > > > > downloading free of charge > > from DTIC. > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent results were > > achieved with > > > > concrete having > NO > > > > > > reinforcement. There has > > been limited > > > > work done with > > > > > > prestressed concrete and > > even less > > > > done with > reinforced > > > > > > concrete and ferrocement, > > which can > > > > reasonably be > expected > > > > > to > give much more efficient > > and > > > > > distortion-tolerant > > > > > > structures. > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > On > 4/11/2014 8:25 PM, hank > > pronk > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > A cheap alternative to > > a super > > > > strong sphere > hull is > > > > > > re-enforced concrete. I > > feel like > > > > hiding under a > blanket > > > > > while > I say this,lol. > > I know it > > > > is way out > there, but > > > > > > concrete is super strong > > under > > > > > compression. It is not > > > > > so > good for impact > > resistance. > > > > Concrete is a > very easy > > > > > > material to work with and > > form into a > > > > sphere > shape. I > > > > > have > no idea what thickness > > would be > > > > needed. > Properly > > > > > > engineered I would trust > > it. > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing > > > > list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > > > Translations (ProZ > > profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > > > Translations (BeWords > > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > > list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Archivale > catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > > Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > > Translations > (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > > Translations > (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From cast55 at telus.net Sun Apr 13 02:16:35 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:16:35 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534A0A1B.5060305@archivale.com> References: <1397357729.93839.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <534A0A1B.5060305@archivale.com> Message-ID: <534A2BC3.8010601@telus.net> I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. Working pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while the compressive strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. Sphere may not be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of pretensioned reinforcement. Results: On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. > > Marc > > On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> Marc, >> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and >> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays >> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash >> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines >> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like >> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are >> the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches >> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use >> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat >> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very >> scientific .lol >> >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >> >> Actually, all else being equal, using >> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse >> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as >> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect >> in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to >> show off the aggregate. >> >> You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, >> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert >> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate >> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly >> with the matrix long after cure. >> >> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of >> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that >> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING >> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement >> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >> effect. >> >> Best, >> Marc de Piolenc >> Ferrocement freak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jgijfcba.png Type: image/png Size: 111116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Apr 13 03:46:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?=) Date: 13 Apr 2014 07:46 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic In-Reply-To: <001101cf569d$d73a4c50$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1397307516.69720.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001101cf569d$d73a4c50$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1WZF7D-3y7b160@fwd11.t-online.de> Oh boy - so genius simple.. :-) vbr Carsten "Dan H." schrieb: > How to solve the problem of depth figuring in on the situation is to use > double ended cylinders. With a rod of the same size sticking out of each > end of each cylinder the effect of water pressure balances out. The force > is the same in either direction. > > Dan H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hank pronk" > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic > > > Hi Carsten, > I am not sure about your math, I get a much different figure. > A 1/2 in rod has an area of .19in > multiply by 1,000 foot depth salt water 445psi = 87.33 lbs > With a 10 to 1 lever that would be 8.7 lbs to push with your arm. > Also you want a smaller cylinder inside with a longer stroke and you get an > even lighter load on your arm. > Hank > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new submarine inside to outside hydraulic > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 2:56 AM > > > > > > E-Mail Software 6.0 > > Hi Scott, > > 1 bar = 0,1 > N/mm2 > > 1000 meter depth = 100 bar or 10 N/mm2 > (or 1 > kg/mm2) > > A Hydraulic stamp of a 1/2 inch has a surface of 126 > > mm2 > means the outside waterpressure on the cylinder stamp is > 1267 > N or > 127 Kg or 0,13 ts. > > If you make a drawing of your schematic you > will see > that it is not selfcompensating. > Means you need a inside force of > that > amout just to compensate. > If you asume you can take a pressure > of 0,013 > ts > with some comfore by hand you inside zylinder piston has to > be > the 10 > times more diameter thn the outside one. > > By the way the same > force works > on your troughulls cables of the same diameter. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > schrieb: > > I have a question maybe someone can answer. > If you have two hydraulic cylinders that are completely > filled with > oil (no air pockets anywhere in the system) one in a > submarine and on > outside of a submarine. Each cylinder has the rod side > connected to the > head side of the other cylinder so when on rod extends, the > flow of one > makes the other cylinder do the same exact thing. Would the > one cylinder > that does the same as the other cylinder on the surface > function the > same way at depth? Or would the deeper you go the more force > you would > have trying to push the rod into the cylinder? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitestar456 at manx.net Sun Apr 13 06:23:20 2014 From: whitestar456 at manx.net (Graham Bayliss) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 11:23:20 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group In-Reply-To: <1397353926.1123.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <000501cf5674$f337cff0$d9a76fd0$@net> <1397353926.1123.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cf5702$6537caa0$2fa75fe0$@net> Thank you for your reply i now have a better idea of how to apply my idea i will use a lift bag and encase it in a box. I will try it to see how it works on a model first and the try it on the sub, Thank you for your input. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk Sent: 13 April 2014 02:52 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group Graham, You didn't mention if you are mounting these tubes horizontal or vertical. If they are vertical, disregard what I said. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Graham Bayliss wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 1:30 PM Hi? Has anyone experimented with a different variable ballast tank I am thinking of making a tube of gas pipe which is made of thick plastic inside I plan to fit a bellows air bag, this will be blown up by the air line which blows the water out of the steel ballast tank . One end of the tank will be fixed so as to hold the bellows in place the other end of the tank will be drilled with holes to allow the water to escape and the bellows to expand. The pressure will blow the air out of the bellows when the return vale is opened. This method also eliminates the fear of what the inside of the steel ballast tank is doing due to sea water corrosion.? Has anyone any views as to why this method will not work. The builder of Casper 11 Graham Bayliss -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: 11 April 2014 14:49 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question for the group A club designed sub "OSS - Open Source Submarine" was attempted years ago.? It had a good start but stalled soon afterward.? That kind of project is difficult to complete unless someone with a clear vision and desire to lead the effort takes charge of it.? I don't think I have it linked from the main site anymore but the page still exists at www.psubs.org/oss if you want to look at it or revive it. Franks saucer sub was taken over by his daughter.? Her intent was to finish it and she did write into PSUBS shortly after Frank's death notifying us of that intent, however I have never heard back from them again and don't know what ultimately became of the sub. On 4/10/2014 4:18 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Scott\All > I like the idea of the "club" manipulator. > > I think there is scope for several club type projects.? Just off the > top of my head. > Club designed sub plans.? Perhaps based on the K250 or Emile's Eurosub > but kept super simple for the first time builder. > Manipulator arm > Re-designed hatch for K boats > Single sideband UW radio > O2 monitor > I always thought it would be nice for someone or group to get hold of > Franks saucer sub and get it finished.? im sure he'd have liked to see > it in the water. > Anyway, just thinking aloud, > Kind Regards > James > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 10:35:33 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534A2BC3.8010601@telus.net> Message-ID: <1397399733.56206.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to go big and unwieldy.
Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall.


Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jgijfcba.png Type: image/png Size: 111116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 13:44:06 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:44:06 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete Message-ID: <14tm4w1q27951lxrktsm6lpm.1397410846431@email.android.com> One thing if you do decide to try a sub made of concrete, is to be sure you cut tru holes with dimond or carbon rather than any kind of impaction device (hammer drill). Using a impaction weakens the integraty around the hole itself. If you do try this, let me know and I can get you all kinds of deals with dimond cutting materials through my business. We buy thousands of dollars of it every year :) Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to go big and unwieldy. Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Sean T. Stevenson ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete Sent: Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement.? Working pressure came out to more than 1700 m.? That said, while the compressive strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension.? Sphere may not be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of pretensioned reinforcement.? Results: On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. Marc On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: Marc, We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines left.? The jagged sand won't flow through the hose.? Fly ash is like little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose.? These are the things that make me think a mold? is the way to go.? Four inches wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler.? I would still use the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage.? I know, very scientific .lol Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete ? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM ? Actually, all else being equal, using ? only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse ? aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as ? bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect ? in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to ? show off the aggregate. ? You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, ? to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert ? with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate ? will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly ? with the matrix long after cure. ? Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of ? fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a ? super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that ? the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING ? cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. ? Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement ? on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this ? effect. ? Best, ? Marc de Piolenc ? Ferrocement freak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jgijfcba.png Type: image/png Size: 111116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 13 14:20:21 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <14tm4w1q27951lxrktsm6lpm.1397410846431@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397413221.49285.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Good point, A concrete sphere sub would need all the penetrations cast in place, then tightened after 28 days with through bolds perhaps. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/13/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, April 13, 2014, 1:44 PM One thing if you do decide to try a sub made of concrete, is to be sure you cut tru holes with dimond or carbon rather than any kind of impaction device (hammer drill). Using a impaction weakens the integraty around the hole itself. If you do try this, let me know and I can get you all kinds of deals with dimond cutting materials through my business. We buy thousands of dollars of it every year :)Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to go big and unwieldy. Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Sean T. Stevenson ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete Sent: Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement.? Working pressure came out to more than 1700 m.? That said, while the compressive strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension.? Sphere may not be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of pretensioned reinforcement.? Results: On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. Marc On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: Marc, We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines left.? The jagged sand won't flow through the hose.? Fly ash is like little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose.? These are the things that make me think a mold? is the way to go.? Four inches wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler.? I would still use the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage.? I know, very scientific .lol Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete ? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM ? Actually, all else being equal, using ? only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse ? aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as ? bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect ? in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to ? show off the aggregate. ? You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, ? to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert ? with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate ? will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly ? with the matrix long after cure. ? Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of ? fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a ? super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that ? the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING ? cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. ? Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement ? on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this ? effect. ? Best, ? Marc de Piolenc ? Ferrocement freak -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From pilotfishp at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 14:25:51 2014 From: pilotfishp at gmail.com (Antoine Delafargue) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:25:51 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project hull Message-ID: psubers, This week Michael (future copilot and pedaller) and I went to Amsterdam to see our hull at Emile's. Was great to see the good works from Emile exactly as planned. Paul the designer was there too. Quite productive and intense work sessions. Nothing beats a physical meeting with pen and paper discussions... Finally we could feel the space inside the hull where we ll spend a week, and test the delicate switching between pilot and back seats. Felt roomier than we envisioned, ouf. At the end we got to dive in Emile's sub in a nearby lake, (with surface help from the nearby Scuba Academie dive shop). It was Michael first submarine dive, and the second one for me. A lot in one day!! some pics at www.pilotfishproject.com and a little video to share with you: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project/294329844027226 regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 15:44:13 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail test Message-ID: <1397418253.53862.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Testing mail for multiple copies, delay time, and inbox receipt.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 17:16:06 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery Message-ID: <1397423766.56722.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I can no longer see my own posts in my inbox.

Is this email visible to the group?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Apr 13 17:18:12 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:18:12 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: <1397423766.56722.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397423766.56722.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <672A8DA8-83DC-4B38-BEDC-E7465451D43C@aol.com> I received it, Joe. -Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 13, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > > I can no longer see my own posts in my inbox. > > Is this email visible to the group? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 17:22:24 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: <672A8DA8-83DC-4B38-BEDC-E7465451D43C@aol.com> Message-ID: <1397424144.35063.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jim

It seems to have been a glitch that lasted about three days, now apparently and mysteriously self resolved.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 17:44:05 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:44:05 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project hull Message-ID: <502lb2f8ajnjf770mgviv626.1397425422000@email.android.com> Very cool video! Thank you!! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAntoine Delafargue wrote:psubers,? This week Michael (future copilot and pedaller) and I went to Amsterdam to see our hull at Emile's. Was great to see the good works from Emile exactly as planned. Paul the designer was there too. Quite productive and intense work sessions. Nothing beats a physical meeting with pen and paper discussions... Finally we could feel the space inside the hull where we ll spend a week, and test the delicate switching between pilot and back seats. Felt roomier than we envisioned, ouf. At the end we got to dive in Emile's sub in a nearby lake, (with surface help from the nearby Scuba Academie dive shop). It was Michael first submarine dive, and the second one for me. A lot in one day!! some pics at www.pilotfishproject.com and a little video to share with you: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project/294329844027226 regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 17:45:17 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <4ejnpc4f6f3st9cfnjp63fm8.1397425505033@email.android.com> How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past?? How does a group like that charge for work?? This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Apr 13 18:13:03 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 15:13:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <20140413151303.4471E42E@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 18:32:17 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a combination of diver and sub together with comms doing tasks? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneBrian Cox wrote:Hi Scott, ??????????????? I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there.? I know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, which is some sort of government related survey of different species of fish around the oil platforms.? Seems like a highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess it's better that no survey.? You can see them on youtube counting fish from the sub.? I tried to get some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any information.???I think the best?way is to create your own work. ? Brian?? --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past?? How does a group like that charge for work?? This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Apr 13 18:40:01 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (Brian Cox) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 15:40:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <20140413154001.4471E5EF@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 18:51:56 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:51:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <8p2o1m7y4jjvmxx4t37a9e01.1397429271493@email.android.com> I know we have some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of work is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in order to be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What are the benifits from the employer to use a sub rather that divers?? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneBrian Cox wrote:Well, seeing as how there ain't too many?subs out there, I would say what ever the traffic will bear.? You're right to estimate relative to similar activities.? You have to cover your basic operational costs, your time and what the sub itself could charge per hour or per job.? Degree of difficulty and also degree of risk involved. ? Brian --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a combination of diver and sub together with comms doing tasks? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Hi Scott, ??????????????? I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there.? I know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, which is some sort of government related survey of different species of fish around the oil platforms.? Seems like a highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess it's better that no survey.? You can see them on youtube counting fish from the sub.? I tried to get some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any information.???I think the best?way is to create your own work. ? Brian?? --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past?? How does a group like that charge for work?? This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 13 19:45:00 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: <8p2o1m7y4jjvmxx4t37a9e01.1397429271493@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397432700.19654.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Put a manipulator on your sub and go salvage something that gets you on the news. Free exposure, if you build it they will come. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/13/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, April 13, 2014, 6:51 PM I know we have some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of work is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in order to be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What are the benifits from the employer to use a sub rather that divers??Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Well, seeing as how there ain't too many?subs out there, I would say what ever the traffic will bear.? You're right to estimate relative to similar activities.? You have to cover your basic operational costs, your time and what the sub itself could charge per hour or per job.? Degree of difficulty and also degree of risk involved.?Brian --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a combination of diver and sub together with comms doing tasks?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Hi Scott,??????????????? I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there.? I know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, which is some sort of government related survey of different species of fish around the oil platforms.? Seems like a highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess it's better that no survey.? You can see them on youtube counting fish from the sub.? I tried to get some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any information.???I think the best?way is to create your own work.?Brian?? --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past??How does a group like that charge for work??This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 20:06:30 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:06:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: Haha. Ok Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Scott, Put a manipulator on your sub and go salvage something that gets you on the news.? Free exposure, if you build it they will come. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/13/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, April 13, 2014, 6:51 PM I know we have some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of work is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in order to be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What are the benifits from the employer to use a sub rather that divers??Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Well, seeing as how there ain't too many?subs out there, I would say what ever the traffic will bear.? You're right to estimate relative to similar activities.? You have to cover your basic operational costs, your time and what the sub itself could charge per hour or per job.? Degree of difficulty and also degree of risk involved.?Brian --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a combination of diver and sub together with comms doing tasks?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Hi Scott,??????????????? I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there.? I know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, which is some sort of government related survey of different species of fish around the oil platforms.? Seems like a highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess it's better that no survey.? You can see them on youtube counting fish from the sub.? I tried to get some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any information.???I think the best?way is to create your own work.?Brian?? --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past??How does a group like that charge for work??This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 20:20:17 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 20:20:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott, Location, location! Come back to Florida and contract with the Rosenthal school for reef monitoring and specimen collection. I thought about it myself but, my little WWII "Das Bootie" won't be up to the job! :) Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 8:06 PM, swaters wrote: > Haha. Ok > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > Scott, > Put a manipulator on your sub and go salvage something that gets you on the news. Free exposure, if you build it they will come. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 4/13/14, swaters wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, April 13, 2014, 6:51 PM > > I know we have > some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of work > is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in > order to be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What > are the benifits from the employer to use a sub rather that > divers? Thanks,Scott > Waters > > > Sent > from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > Brian Cox wrote: > Well, seeing as how there > ain't too many subs out there, I would say what > ever the traffic will bear. You're right to > estimate relative to similar activities. You have to > cover your basic operational costs, your time and what the > sub itself could charge per hour or per job. Degree of > difficulty and also degree of risk > involved. Brian > > --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > > From: swaters > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 > > Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge > for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard > for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a > combination of diver and sub together with comms doing > tasks?Thanks,Scott Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? > Smartphone > Brian Cox wrote: > Hi > Scott, > I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there. I > know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, > which is some sort of government related survey of different > species of fish around the oil platforms. Seems like a > highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess > it's better that no survey. You can see them on > youtube counting fish from the sub. I tried to get > some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few > miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any > information. I think the best way is > to create your own > work. Brian > > --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > > From: swaters > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 > > How does delta > oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to > find their web site or just through their connections in the > past? How does a group like that charge for > work? This is a realm I know nothing about > and would love to learn more > about.Thanks,Scott > Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? > Smartphone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Apr 13 20:31:32 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 20:31:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: <8p2o1m7y4jjvmxx4t37a9e01.1397429271493@email.android.com> References: <8p2o1m7y4jjvmxx4t37a9e01.1397429271493@email.android.com> Message-ID: <534B2C64.1000105@psubs.org> Scott, Real commercial work is going to cost you certification so be prepared to really beef up your fabrication budget. ROV's are the primary work tool these days so you'll be competing primarily against them. For non-ROV work you'll be competing against Nuytco and others of that caliber. The amount of work you get will be determined by the value your submarine offers for a particular job and the price point to perform the work. You'll need to honestly assess the capabilities of your submarine against the competition to determine if you can compete against them. For an odd job, local, not-really-serious but would like to make a buck, commercial work; just negotiate the best rate you can get when someone needs your services. Forget about certification and avoid work that requires such rating. You can follow the lead of work boats and barges for pricing your services. You likely want to charge a couple hundred bucks just to hitch up and move the sub out of the driveway, some fee for fuel and travel expenses, and some per hour fee for vessel and pilot with something like a 3-4 hour minimum. It's a great dream, I'd love to live it, but I think you're looking at hundreds of thousands to get to the point where you have a steady revenue stream that makes it financially feasible. Not impossible, but difficult without lots of capital. Jon On 4/13/2014 6:51 PM, swaters wrote: > I know we have some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of > work is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in order to > be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What are the benifits > from the employer to use a sub rather that divers? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 20:45:39 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation Message-ID: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. ?So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases.? Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with ?main induction and exhaust vents. ?All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. ? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Sun Apr 13 21:16:11 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:16:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation In-Reply-To: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Airflow in constrained spaces is often difficult to model. Alternatives include water cooled motors, or simply effectively heat sinking the motor housings to the hull and using passive water cooling to the ambient seawater. Ultimately, that's where the heat is going anyway. Unless you can use it for some purpose (cabin heat, humidity control etc.) you might as well sink it as directly as possible. Sean On April 13, 2014 6:45:39 PM MDT, Joe Perkel wrote: >I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor >cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros >or cons >that I may be missing. >In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the >torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. ?So the idea >being that the aft ends of both >will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery >compartments. >I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft >machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter >will be >42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace >around >these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases.? Each >motor pod could be connected with vent >pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself >force >vented to the outside with ?main >induction and exhaust vents. ?All this >for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units >would be >intermittent duty. >The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, >therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal >constraints. >? >Joe > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 21:33:00 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:33:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation In-Reply-To: References: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7E6CF671-CC60-4FB2-9332-AA86968E710C@yahoo.com> Sean, Northern climates have nice cool seas, but I'm dealing with tropical temps here averaging in the 80's in summer. With hot seas, which scheme would be best? I simply am not certain, my gut says relying on the ambient water may not do the job. I could be wrong. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 9:16 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > Airflow in constrained spaces is often difficult to model. Alternatives include water cooled motors, or simply effectively heat sinking the motor housings to the hull and using passive water cooling to the ambient seawater. Ultimately, that's where the heat is going anyway. Unless you can use it for some purpose (cabin heat, humidity control etc.) you might as well sink it as directly as possible. > > Sean > > > On April 13, 2014 6:45:39 PM MDT, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >> I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. >> In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. >> I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases. Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with main induction and exhaust vents. All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. >> The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sun Apr 13 21:47:02 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation Message-ID: <91519.4524f9db.407c9815@aol.com> Joe, Since the water doesn't have to be re-cooled as it does in a closed-loop system, I think the ambient water should be quite adequate. The heat transfer rate of water is much higher than air and you have an essentially limitless supply. Jim In a message dated 4/13/2014 8:33:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: Sean, Northern climates have nice cool seas, but I'm dealing with tropical temps here averaging in the 80's in summer. With hot seas, which scheme would be best? I simply am not certain, my gut says relying on the ambient water may not do the job. I could be wrong. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 9:16 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" <_cast55 at telus.net_ (mailto:cast55 at telus.net) > wrote: Airflow in constrained spaces is often difficult to model. Alternatives include water cooled motors, or simply effectively heat sinking the motor housings to the hull and using passive water cooling to the ambient seawater. Ultimately, that's where the heat is going anyway. Unless you can use it for some purpose (cabin heat, humidity control etc.) you might as well sink it as directly as possible. Sean On April 13, 2014 6:45:39 PM MDT, Joe Perkel <_josephperkel at yahoo.com_ (mailto:josephperkel at yahoo.com) > wrote: I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases. Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with main induction and exhaust vents. All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. Joe ____________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles = _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Sun Apr 13 21:52:11 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:52:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation In-Reply-To: <7E6CF671-CC60-4FB2-9332-AA86968E710C@yahoo.com> References: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <7E6CF671-CC60-4FB2-9332-AA86968E710C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534B3F4B.7010302@telus.net> A couple of things - first, the specific heat capacity of water is much greater than that of air, so effective cooling can be effected even with small delta-T's. Second, if you think about the latent and sensible sources of heat generated by the submarine's systems and its occupants, if you can't lose that heat to the seawater, where else is it going to go? Even circulating the air to cool the motors will result in a temperature rise of the air, which is subsequently transferred to everything it touches. When surfaced, you have two ways of losing that heat: to the air, or to the surrounding water. When submerged, the water is your only option. Now, this can be done passively, which necessitates relying on a delta-T between the sub and the water, or actively, which requires energy input (i.e. air conditioning) but permits you to expel water or air at a higher temperature than the ambient medium. Either way, if you can't lose heat to the environment, the only possible outcome is a rise in temperature of your closed system. Sean On 2014-04-13 19:33, Joe Perkel wrote: > Sean, > > Northern climates have nice cool seas, but I'm dealing with tropical > temps here averaging in the 80's in summer. With hot seas, which > scheme would be best? I simply am not certain, my gut says relying on > the ambient water may not do the job. I could be wrong. > > Joe > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2014, at 9:16 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" > wrote: > >> Airflow in constrained spaces is often difficult to model. >> Alternatives include water cooled motors, or simply effectively heat >> sinking the motor housings to the hull and using passive water >> cooling to the ambient seawater. Ultimately, that's where the heat is >> going anyway. Unless you can use it for some purpose (cabin heat, >> humidity control etc.) you might as well sink it as directly as possible. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> On April 13, 2014 6:45:39 PM MDT, Joe Perkel > > wrote: >> >> I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling >> and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or >> cons that I may be missing. >> In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) >> length exceed needed battery capacity. So the idea being that >> the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated >> from the battery compartments. >> I'm thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft >> machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull >> diameter will be 42" and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave >> a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to >> use fan cooled motor cases. Each motor pod could be connected >> with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery >> space itself force vented to the outside with main induction and >> exhaust vents. All this for continuous surface running of >> course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. >> The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, >> therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal >> constraints. >> >> >> >> Joe >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Apr 13 22:07:50 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:07:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation In-Reply-To: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534B42F6.5000603@psubs.org> A good part of the year in your climate the outside air is likely to be hotter than the sea. I'm not convinced there's a clear benefit outweighing the sea as a heat sink. On 4/13/2014 8:45 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and > would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons > that I may be missing. > In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length > exceed needed battery capacity. So the idea being that the aft ends of > both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery > compartments. > I'm thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery > space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be > 42" and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace > around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor > cases.Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and > output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the > outside with main induction and exhaust vents. All this for continuous > surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be > intermittent duty. > The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore > not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 22:16:27 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Ventilation In-Reply-To: <534B42F6.5000603@psubs.org> References: <1397436339.13636.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534B42F6.5000603@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397441787.89062.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? Jon /Sean / Jim, If I can simplify the motor cooling with ambient water, all the better, I prefer the simplicity of that method. But, I must, must, have air-conditioning! I must reduce cabin humidity and temperature to comfortable levels, this is a manned steel drum in the tropical sun! Plus, I want my electronics dry. My intent is to isolate the machine space with a thermal bulkhead with the required lines and piping routed through as appropriate. That machine space then force ventilated to the outside in the sail for extended surface transits. I was figuring that since I?m doing all this ventilating anyway that I would feed these outside motor pods into this environment. But I do like the idea of keeping down the number of thru hulls if I don?t need them and just use the passing water. That bulkhead need not be neither structural nor watertight, simply a thermal barrier with manhole access to the goodies beyond. The space can be monitored with sensors and video and a fire suppression system could be discharged without impacting the occupants??? ? Joe On Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:11 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: A good part of the year in your climate the outside air is likely to be hotter than the sea.? I'm not convinced there's a clear benefit outweighing the sea as a heat sink. On 4/13/2014 8:45 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. >In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. ?So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. >I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases.? Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with ?main induction and exhaust vents. ?All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. >The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. >? >Joe > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Sun Apr 13 22:46:30 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:46:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial In-Reply-To: <4ejnpc4f6f3st9cfnjp63fm8.1397425505033@email.android.com> References: <4ejnpc4f6f3st9cfnjp63fm8.1397425505033@email.android.com> Message-ID: <99040CC0-CED8-4E8E-A5DA-CADA1FA38D78@AOL.com> Scott, Prices range up from $3500/day (plus consumables) and more for a sub and crew with ship costs above that. If your customer supplies the vessel, they pay. If you arrange for it, then I'd say costs times 150% plus consumables at the least. For an observation sub/support vessel back in the day we charged $14K/day. Five years later HBOI was running $16K//day. Who knows how much it costs for Alvin today. Kittredge usually charged $1K/day if he could get it for a sub and pilot. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 13, 2014, at 5:45 PM, swaters wrote: > > How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past? > How does a group like that charge for work? > This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sun Apr 13 23:30:48 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:30:48 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397399733.56206.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397399733.56206.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534B5668.7080405@archivale.com> Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick and very little freeboard. Any lives lost? Marc On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to > go big and unwieldy. > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson ; > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ; > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM > > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. Working > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while the compressive > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. Sphere may not > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: > > > > > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >>> Marc, >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very >>> scientific .lol >>> >>> Hank >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >>> >>> Actually, all else being equal, using >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to >>> show off the aggregate. >>> >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly >>> with the matrix long after cure. >>> >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >>> effect. >>> >>> Best, >>> Marc de Piolenc >>> Ferrocement freak > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 23:39:54 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:39:54 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: <89i3302sh8iu4qkf3lotcc7j.1397446380476@email.android.com> Good information guys. I feel like my K boat is only good for a observation boat currently, until I design a good manipulator arm. It's a dream of mine to go into sub work for a living, but I probably ought to stay with what I am good at and keep growing retail stores to fuel my hobby. I really enjoy the little bit of low vis lake work I do a few times a year. Maybe some day an oprotunity will come up.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneVance Bradley wrote:Scott, Prices range up from $3500/day (plus consumables) and more for a sub and crew with ship costs above that. If your customer supplies the vessel, they pay. If you arrange for it, then I'd say costs times 150% plus consumables at the least. For an observation sub/support vessel back in the day we charged $14K/day. Five years later HBOI was running $16K//day. Who knows how much it costs for Alvin today. Kittredge usually charged $1K/day if he could get it for a sub and pilot. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 5:45 PM, swaters wrote: How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past?? How does a group like that charge for work?? This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Apr 13 23:43:53 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:43:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Message-ID: Joe, I'd love to live back in Florida again. My little sister live in Summerland Key, Fl and my brother lives in the US Virgin Islands St. Thomas. Wish I could just scoop up all my stores in the mid west and move. :( -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:Scott, Location, location!? Come back to Florida and contract with the Rosenthal school for reef monitoring and specimen collection. I thought about it myself but, my little WWII "Das Bootie" won't be up to the job! :) Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 8:06 PM, swaters wrote: Haha. Ok Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, Put a manipulator on your sub and go salvage something that gets you on the news.? Free exposure, if you build it they will come. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/13/14, swaters wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, April 13, 2014, 6:51 PM I know we have some retired commercial divers in psubs. What kind of work is out there for subs like ours realistically. I know in order to be effective we need tooling and manipulators. What are the benifits from the employer to use a sub rather that divers??Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Well, seeing as how there ain't too many?subs out there, I would say what ever the traffic will bear.? You're right to estimate relative to similar activities.? You have to cover your basic operational costs, your time and what the sub itself could charge per hour or per job.? Degree of difficulty and also degree of risk involved.?Brian --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:32:17 -0500 Makes sence Brian. How do you know what to charge for stuff like that? Is there some kind of industry standard for per hour sub work or any kind of guidelines? Maybe a combination of diver and sub together with comms doing tasks?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Brian Cox wrote: Hi Scott,??????????????? I think they do pick up odd jobs here and there.? I know they do the fish count out here by the Channel Islands, which is some sort of government related survey of different species of fish around the oil platforms.? Seems like a highly unscientific and random kind of survey but I guess it's better that no survey.? You can see them on youtube counting fish from the sub.? I tried to get some info from those guys, since they used to be based a few miles from me, but they were not interested in sharing any information.???I think the best?way is to create your own work.?Brian?? --- swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:45:17 -0500 How does delta oceanographics find work? Do they just wait for people to find their web site or just through their connections in the past??How does a group like that charge for work??This is a realm I know nothing about and would love to learn more about.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 23:49:05 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 20:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project hull In-Reply-To: <502lb2f8ajnjf770mgviv626.1397425422000@email.android.com> References: <502lb2f8ajnjf770mgviv626.1397425422000@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397447345.50013.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks for the update Antoine, Can relate to that. I visited Emile last year & went for a dive in that lake. Great fun. If Emile put a few through hulls in now, before the paint job. And plugged them up; it would be a simple?operation to add some side thrusters & battery pods for a later modification. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project hull Very cool video! Thank you!! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Antoine Delafargue wrote: psubers,? This week Michael (future copilot and pedaller) and I went to Amsterdam to see our hull at Emile's. Was great to see the good works from Emile exactly as planned. Paul the designer was there too. Quite productive and intense work sessions. Nothing beats a physical meeting with pen and paper discussions... Finally we could feel the space inside the hull where we ll spend a week, and test the delicate switching between pilot and back seats. Felt roomier than we envisioned, ouf. At the end we got to dive in Emile's sub in a nearby lake, (with surface help from the nearby Scuba Academie dive shop). It was Michael first submarine dive, and the second one for me. A lot in one day!! some pics at www.pilotfishproject.com and a little video to share with you: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project/294329844027226 regards, Antoine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sun Apr 13 23:51:35 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioning Message-ID: <40cce.51b343d.407cb547@aol.com> Joe, There have been several prior threads over the past few years regarding non-compressor, onboard A-C systems such as modified ice chests with computer fans. The cooling medium doesn't have to be ice. It could even be steel bricks that have been cooled in a freezer or in a container of dry ice if you're prepared to safely handle steel that's been cooled to less that -109 F. Obviously the dry ice doesn't go into the sub. You'll still get humidity reduction from the condensation on the cooling medium. Triton, U-Boat Worx, and some others have onboard A-C systems that might be compressor based. Maybe those who toured Triton can answer that. I'd certainly like to see the specs on weight, capacity, battery draw, etc. I don't plan on a mechanical system myself, but will depend on surface cooling from a system on the tender. That's very similar to what Nuytco uses. I'll use a small passive system onboard when necessary. Jim. In a message dated 4/13/2014 9:16:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: Jon /Sean / Jim, If I can simplify the motor cooling with ambient water, all the better, I prefer the simplicity of that method. But, I must, must, have air-conditioning! I must reduce cabin humidity and temperature to comfortable levels, thi s is a manned steel drum in the tropical sun! Plus, I want my electronics dry. My intent is to isolate the machine space with a thermal bulkhead with the required lines and piping routed through as appropriate. That machine space then force ventilated to the outside in the sail for extended surface transits. I was figuring that since I?m doing all this ventilating anyway that I would feed these outside motor pods into this environment. But I do like the idea of keeping down the number of thru hulls if I don?t need them and just use the passing water. That bulkhead need not be neither structural nor watertight, simply a thermal barrier with manhole access to the goodies beyond. The space can be monitored with sensors and video and a fire suppression system could be discharged without impacting the occupants??? Joe On Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:11 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: A good part of the year in your climate the outside air is likely to be hotter than the sea. I'm not convinced there's a clear benefit outweighing the sea as a heat sink. On 4/13/2014 8:45 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases. Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with main induction and exhaust vents. All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 00:01:35 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:01:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioning Message-ID: <2sv5blvryke3d60ncd543lrb.1397448047818@email.android.com> I never did get to see their a/c system when we toured triton. I wish I would have.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJimToddPsub at aol.com wrote:Joe, ? There?have been?several prior threads over the past few years?regarding non-compressor, onboard A-C systems such as modified ice chests with computer fans.? The cooling medium doesn't have to be ice.? It could even be steel bricks that have been cooled in a freezer or in a container of dry ice if you're prepared to safely handle steel that's been cooled to less that -109 F.? Obviously the dry ice doesn't go into the sub.? You'll still get humidity reduction from the condensation on the cooling medium. ? Triton, U-Boat Worx, and some others have onboard A-C systems that might be? compressor based.? Maybe those who toured Triton can answer that.? I'd certainly like to see the specs on weight, capacity, battery draw, etc.? ? I don't plan on a mechanical system myself, but will depend on surface cooling from a system on the tender.? That's very similar to what Nuytco uses.? I'll use a small passive system onboard when necessary.? ? Jim. ? In a message dated 4/13/2014 9:16:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: ? Jon /Sean / Jim, If I can simplify the motor cooling with ambient water, all the better, I prefer the simplicity of that method. But, I must, must, have air-conditioning! I must reduce cabin humidity and temperature to comfortable levels, this is a manned steel drum in the tropical sun! Plus, I want my electronics dry. My intent is to isolate the machine space with a thermal bulkhead with the required lines and piping routed through as appropriate. That machine space then force ventilated to the outside in the sail for extended surface transits. I was figuring that since I?m doing all this ventilating anyway that I would feed these outside motor pods into this environment. But I do like the idea of keeping down the number of thru hulls if I don?t need them and just use the passing water. That bulkhead need not be neither structural nor watertight, simply a thermal barrier with manhole access to the goodies beyond. The space can be monitored with sensors and video and a fire suppression system could be discharged without impacting the occupants??? ? Joe On Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:11 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: A good part of the year in your climate the outside air is likely to be hotter than the sea.? I'm not convinced there's a clear benefit outweighing the sea as a heat sink. On 4/13/2014 8:45 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. ?So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases.? Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with ?main induction and exhaust vents. ?All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 01:21:11 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioning In-Reply-To: <40cce.51b343d.407cb547@aol.com> References: <40cce.51b343d.407cb547@aol.com> Message-ID: <1397452871.11356.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, I didn't see the AC unit but was told it used up a lot of power. I know my ambient had me cooking while travelling on the surface under the summer sun, but cooled instantaneously when diving. ? ?I am considering having two snorkel valves with a fan on one of them & it's hose pointed at me, for surface transit. The snorkels will be good for? holding on to for?entry. Any comment on this idea is appreciated. I mentioned during the G.L. summary that air conditioning is a requirement, but noted that some boats like the Curasub have an exemption for some reason. Alan ________________________________ From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 3:51 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioning Joe, ? There?have been?several prior threads over the past few years?regarding non-compressor, onboard A-C systems such as modified ice chests with computer fans.? The cooling medium doesn't have to be ice.? It could even be steel bricks that have been cooled in a freezer or in a container of dry ice if you're prepared to safely handle steel that's been cooled to less that -109 F.? Obviously the dry ice doesn't go into the sub.? You'll still get humidity reduction from the condensation on the cooling medium. ? Triton, U-Boat Worx, and some others have onboard A-C systems that might be? compressor based.? Maybe those who toured Triton can answer that.? I'd certainly like to see the specs on weight, capacity, battery draw, etc.? ? I don't plan on a mechanical system myself, but will depend on surface cooling from a system on the tender.? That's very similar to what Nuytco uses.? I'll use a small passive system onboard when necessary.? ? Jim. ? In a message dated 4/13/2014 9:16:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: ? >Jon /Sean / Jim, >If I can simplify the motor cooling with ambient water, all the better, I prefer the simplicity of that method. But, I must, must, have air-conditioning! I must reduce cabin humidity and temperature to comfortable levels, this is a manned steel drum in the tropical sun! Plus, I want my electronics dry. >My intent is to isolate the machine space with a thermal bulkhead with the required lines and piping routed through as appropriate. That machine space then force ventilated to the outside in the sail for extended surface transits. I was figuring that since I?m doing all this ventilating anyway that I would feed these outside motor pods into this environment. But I do like the idea of keeping down the number of thru hulls if I don?t need them and just use the passing water. >That bulkhead need not be neither structural nor watertight, simply a thermal barrier with manhole access to the goodies beyond. The space can be monitored with sensors and video and a fire suppression system could be discharged without impacting the occupants??? >? >Joe >On Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:11 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > >A good part of the year in your climate the outside air is likely to be hotter than the sea.? I'm not convinced there's a clear benefit outweighing the sea as a heat sink. > > >On 4/13/2014 8:45 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >I am considering a scheme for dealing with electric motor cooling and would like input on the viability of the idea and any pros or cons that I may be missing. >>In looking at my SeeHund replica, note that the torpedo/pod(s) length exceed needed battery capacity. ?So the idea being that the aft ends of both will house electric motors that are isolated from the battery compartments. >>I?m thinking to ventilate these aft motor units into the aft machinery space within the main hull. Incidentally, the hull diameter will be 42? and the torpedoes #14 pipe. This will leave a significant airspace around these motor units allowing me to use fan cooled motor cases.? Each motor pod could be connected with vent pipes for intake and output airflow, then the machinery space itself force vented to the outside with ?main induction and exhaust vents. ?All this for continuous surface running of course. Submerged, the motor units would be intermittent duty. >>The centerline unit would be fully enclosed and not vented, therefore not as attractive for continuous duty due to thermal constraints. >>? >>Joe >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 01:24:39 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems In-Reply-To: <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> References: <12337630-7284-4EC2-9629-12282D8B4183@yahoo.com> <5345F1B6.70801@psubs.org> <534602e8.24d9440a.77a0.38c7@mx.google.com> <1397164683.6062.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5347EE6B.5020006@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1397453079.59294.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon,? I'm still not seeing my posts other than at the bottom of other peoples emails. I did reply to the "bounce" message, maybe that put a spanner in the works. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mail Problems The mail problems for yahoo users is due to more stringent spam control being exercised by YAHOO.? I've cleared everybody's "bounce" count and you can ignore the "bounce" message if you got one.? I've also implemented a software change that should satisfy yahoo and stop the delivery problems.? We'll see. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 02:02:47 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 02:02:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot Fish Project hull In-Reply-To: <502lb2f8ajnjf770mgviv626.1397425422000@email.android.com> References: <502lb2f8ajnjf770mgviv626.1397425422000@email.android.com> Message-ID: Antoine, great to hear about such progress on the Pilot Fish Project sub. I am eagerly awaiting to hear more about this project in the coming months. Good luck! ~ Douglas S. On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM, swaters wrote: > Very cool video! Thank you!! > -Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Antoine Delafargue wrote: > psubers, > > This week Michael (future copilot and pedaller) and I went to Amsterdam to > see our hull at Emile's. Was great to see the good works from Emile exactly > as planned. Paul the designer was there too. Quite productive and intense > work sessions. Nothing beats a physical meeting with pen and paper > discussions... > > Finally we could feel the space inside the hull where we ll spend a week, > and test the delicate switching between pilot and back seats. Felt roomier > than we envisioned, ouf. > > At the end we got to dive in Emile's sub in a nearby lake, (with surface > help from the nearby Scuba Academie dive shop). It was Michael first > submarine dive, and the second one for me. A lot in one day!! > > some pics at www.pilotfishproject.com > > and a little video to share with you: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project/294329844027226 > > regards, > Antoine > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 06:52:34 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 03:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534B5668.7080405@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Marc,

Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 07:06:01 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 04:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioning In-Reply-To: <2sv5blvryke3d60ncd543lrb.1397448047818@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1397473561.77806.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim,

I've been studying the a/c and ventilation systems of the fleet boats for some years now. I plan a miniaturized version of those systems. There are several <=5K BTU marine air units on the market that are designed for small boats without gensets. Exhaust water will be expelled overboard on the surface, and diverted through a keel cooler for submerged ops. Condensed water has to be scavenged. All these systems require space and power, SeaHunter has plenty of convenient battery space in those torpedo pods. A dedicated machinery space is a must.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Apr 14 09:27:42 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:27:42 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... Marc On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Marc, > > Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: * Marc de Piolenc ; > *To: * ; > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > *Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM > > Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick and very > little freeboard. Any lives lost? > > Marc > > On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to > > go big and unwieldy. > > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on > > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. > > > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson >; > > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >; > > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM > > > > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace > > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. Working > > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while the compressive > > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you > > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. Sphere may not > > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of > > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: > > > > > > > > > > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >>> Marc, > >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and > >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" > >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays > >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash > >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines > >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like > >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are > >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches > >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. > >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use > >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat > >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very > >>> scientific .lol > >>> > >>> Hank > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM > >>> > >>> Actually, all else being equal, using > >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse > >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as > >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect > >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to > >>> show off the aggregate. > >>> > >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, > >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert > >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate > >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly > >>> with the matrix long after cure. > >>> > >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of > >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a > >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that > >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING > >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. > >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement > >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this > >>> effect. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Marc de Piolenc > >>> Ferrocement freak > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jimrudholm at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 10:21:57 2014 From: jimrudholm at gmail.com (Jim Rudholm) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:21:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> Message-ID: Plenty of photos at: concretesubmarine.com On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... > > Marc > > On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Marc, >> >> Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From: * Marc de Piolenc ; >> *To: * ; >> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> *Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM >> >> Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick and very >> little freeboard. Any lives lost? >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to >> > go big and unwieldy. >> > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on >> > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. >> > >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > >> >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson >; >> > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > >; >> > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM >> > >> > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra >> high-performace >> > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. >> Working >> > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while the >> compressive >> > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you >> > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. Sphere may not >> > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of >> > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>> Marc, >> >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and >> >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >> >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays >> >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash >> >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines >> >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like >> >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are >> >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches >> >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >> >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use >> >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat >> >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very >> >>> scientific .lol >> >>> >> >>> Hank >> >>> -------------------------------------------- >> >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc > > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >> >>> >> >>> Actually, all else being equal, using >> >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse >> >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as >> >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect >> >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to >> >>> show off the aggregate. >> >>> >> >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, >> >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert >> >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate >> >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly >> >>> with the matrix long after cure. >> >>> >> >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of >> >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >> >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that >> >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING >> >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >> >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement >> >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >> >>> effect. >> >>> >> >>> Best, >> >>> Marc de Piolenc >> >>> Ferrocement freak >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 11:14:10 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:14:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: <672A8DA8-83DC-4B38-BEDC-E7465451D43C@aol.com> References: <1397423766.56722.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <672A8DA8-83DC-4B38-BEDC-E7465451D43C@aol.com> Message-ID: Joe, if you can read this: I haven't received anything from you in some time. The only time I see your messages is when someone else responds to you and your message is attached underneath their response (in this case Jim's response). ~ Douglas S. On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Jim Todd wrote: > I received it, Joe. > -Jim > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > I can no longer see my own posts in my inbox. > > Is this email visible to the group? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 11:37:09 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:37:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <20140414083708.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.ba7ee694c1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jibiefjg.png Type: image/png Size: 70163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hibihdjg.png Type: image/png Size: 69536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jimrudholm at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 13:43:17 2014 From: jimrudholm at gmail.com (Jim Rudholm) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:43:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> Message-ID: Here are a few photos of my party barge, 26' x 8', built in 1968. Also some photos of Martin Iron's Fibersteel mold and a hull in West Sacramento, CA. I had returned from two years with the Navy in Japan and had picked up several cargo parachutes at a surplus store. These made for an interesting air inflated building, they were treated with a plastic preservative coating, but the UV eventually deteriorated the nylon. https://plus.google.com/photos/110939032764686627267/albums/5294994060907444593?banner=pwa JimR On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jim Rudholm wrote: > Plenty of photos at: > concretesubmarine.com > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> Marc, >>> >>> Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From: * Marc de Piolenc ; >>> *To: * ; >>> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>> *Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM >>> >>> Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick and very >>> little freeboard. Any lives lost? >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to >>> > go big and unwieldy. >>> > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on >>> > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. >>> > >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> com?.src=iOS> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson >; >>> > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > >; >>> > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>> > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM >>> > >>> > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra >>> high-performace >>> > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. >>> Working >>> > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while the >>> compressive >>> > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you >>> > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. Sphere may >>> not >>> > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort >>> of >>> > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >>> >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly >>> ash. >>> >> >>> >> Marc >>> >> >>> >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>> Marc, >>> >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall >>> and >>> >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >>> >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays >>> >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash >>> >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines >>> >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. Fly ash is like >>> >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. These are >>> >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to go. Four inches >>> >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >>> >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I would still use >>> >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat >>> >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, very >>> >>> scientific .lol >>> >>> >>> >>> Hank >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>> >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> Actually, all else being equal, using >>> >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse >>> >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as >>> >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect >>> >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to >>> >>> show off the aggregate. >>> >>> >>> >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, >>> >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert >>> >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate >>> >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly >>> >>> with the matrix long after cure. >>> >>> >>> >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of >>> >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >>> >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that >>> >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING >>> >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >>> >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement >>> >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >>> >>> effect. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc de Piolenc >>> >>> Ferrocement freak >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Mon Apr 14 14:24:53 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:24:53 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <20140414083708.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.ba7ee694c1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414083708.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.ba7ee694c1.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <7ddbdc62-5ccf-47ef-bbc8-4fff46dfbc26@email.android.com> At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no problem. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:29:04 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:29:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: References: <1397423766.56722.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <672A8DA8-83DC-4B38-BEDC-E7465451D43C@aol.com> Message-ID: <8E9DB659-8E34-4C29-B7D7-D1353D96497D@yahoo.com> Douglas, Strange things are happening to my emails. I don't know if its my device(s) or the account. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Joe, if you can read this: I haven't received anything from you in some time. The only time I see your messages is when someone else responds to you and your message is attached underneath their response (in this case Jim's response). ~ Douglas S. > > > On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Jim Todd wrote: >> I received it, Joe. >> -Jim >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 13, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> >>> I can no longer see my own posts in my inbox. >>> >>> Is this email visible to the group? >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From groplias2 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:33:39 2014 From: groplias2 at yahoo.com (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:33:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1397500419.3858.YahooMailNeo@web173204.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> the concrete yacht submarine is at the bottom of Attersee, Austria, in 50 m depth and is a turist atraction now. As far as Wilfried the builder told me it sank because some buglars damaged the hatch and after a long time rain came in and one day it sank. No body was on the boat, because it was in a kind of winter pause. In youtube there are several videos showing the boat. Search under Atterse u boot. Best wishes Juergen Jim Rudholm schrieb am 12:45 Montag, 14.April 2014: ?Here are a few photos of my party barge, 26' x 8', built in 1968. ?Also some photos of ?Martin Iron's Fibersteel mold and a hull in West Sacramento, CA. ?I had returned from two years with the Navy in Japan and had picked up several cargo parachutes at a surplus store. These made for an interesting ?air inflated building, they were treated with a plastic preservative coating, but the UV eventually deteriorated the nylon. https://plus.google.com/photos/110939032764686627267/albums/5294994060907444593?banner=pwa JimR On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jim Rudholm wrote: Plenty of photos at: >concretesubmarine.com > > > >On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... >> >>Marc >> >>On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>Marc, >>> >>>Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>*From: * Marc de Piolenc ; >>>*To: * ; >>>*Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>>*Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM >>> >>>Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick and very >>>little freeboard. Any lives lost? >>> >>>Marc >>> >>>On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>?> It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is a tendency to >>>?> go big and unwieldy. >>>?> Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub yacht? It's on >>>?> the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> Joe >>>?> >>>?> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>?> *From: * Sean T. Stevenson >; >>>?> *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>?> >; >>>?> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>>?> *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM >>>?> >>>?> I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra high-performace >>>?> concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber reinforcement. ?Working >>>?> pressure came out to more than 1700 m. ?That said, while the compressive >>>?> strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 MPa, so you >>>?> absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. ?Sphere may not >>>?> be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably require some sort of >>>?> pretensioned reinforcement. ?Results: >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >>>?>> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer properties of fly ash. >>>?>> >>>?>> Marc >>>?>> >>>?>> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >>>?>>> Marc, >>>?>>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we fill the wall and >>>?>>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >>>?>>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete together, it stays >>>?>>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must use fly ash >>>?>>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there are no fines >>>?>>> left. ?The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. ?Fly ash is like >>>?>>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the hose. ?These are >>>?>>> the things that make me think a mold ?is the way to go. ?Four inches >>>?>>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >>>?>>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. ?I would still use >>>?>>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I drove my bob-cat >>>?>>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. ?I know, very >>>?>>> scientific .lol >>>?>>> >>>?>>> Hank >>>?>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>?>>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc >>> wrote: >>>?>>> >>>?>>> ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >>>?>>> ?To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>?>>> ?Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >>>?>>> >>>?>>> ?Actually, all else being equal, using >>>?>>> ?only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. Coarse >>>?>>> ?aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable - as >>>?>>> ?bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative effect >>>?>>> ?in some applications where the fresh concrete is brushed to >>>?>>> ?show off the aggregate. >>>?>>> >>>?>>> ?You have to be careful, in very high-strength applications, >>>?>>> ?to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically inert >>>?>>> ?with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous aggregate >>>?>>> ?will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting slowly >>>?>>> ?with the matrix long after cure. >>>?>>> >>>?>>> ?Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of >>>?>>> ?fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >>>?>>> ?super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is that >>>?>>> ?the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING >>>?>>> ?cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >>>?>>> ?Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash cement >>>?>>> ?on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >>>?>>> ?effect. >>>?>>> >>>?>>> ?Best, >>>?>>> ?Marc de Piolenc >>>?>>> ?Ferrocement freak >>> >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> >>>?> _______________________________________________ >>>?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>?> >>> >>>-- >>>Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>>Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>>Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>>Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>>Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>-- >>Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 15:09:37 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:09:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 15:27:42 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:27:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys Message-ID: <20140414122742.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.397b08779d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 15:44:24 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1397504664.95454.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah me too. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 4/14/14, Douglas Suhr wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, April 14, 2014, 8:14 AM Joe, if you can read this: I haven't received anything from you in some time. The only time I see your messages is when someone else responds to you and your message is attached underneath their response (in this case Jim's response). ~ Douglas S.? On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Jim Todd wrote: I received it, Joe.-Jim Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I can no longer see my own posts in my inbox. Is this email visible to the group? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From JimToddPsub at aol.com Mon Apr 14 15:50:02 2014 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys Message-ID: <3e791.43bf4464.407d95e9@aol.com> Cool stuff, Scott. Glad the gantry worked out. Jim In a message dated 4/14/2014 2:28:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: I just loaded some pictures of my new toys on my account under KW-350 Trustworthy A picture of my trailer extension I built for launching the sub (extends up to 30'!) A picture of my new gantry lift for loading the sub on and off of trailers Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 15:50:34 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:50:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys In-Reply-To: <20140414122742.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.397b08779d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414122742.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.397b08779d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Just checked out your pictures Scott, very nice! Is that extension 15 feet with one full length doubler for 30 feet?and how do you carry it on the trailer? I love the gantry lift. That's the one you found in TX, correct? ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:27 PM, wrote: > I just loaded some pictures of my new toys on my account under KW-350 > Trustworthy > > A picture of my trailer extension I built for launching the sub (extends > up to 30'!) > > A picture of my new gantry lift for loading the sub on and off of trailers > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Mon Apr 14 16:17:27 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:17:27 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <6e81dc9c-f78e-4e35-92c6-bc3d2e05cdba@email.android.com> I am working on it, but it's a hobby project. I am only able to put in small bits of time here and there owing to my other commitments. As soon as I have something that I'm comfortable releasing as a community utility, I'll have Jon set it up on the website. Sean On April 14, 2014 1:09:37 PM MDT, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: >Sean, > >I don't believe I know the geometry. I guess in short term, I am >looking for the pros and cons on a deep submarine for cylinder with >ribs compared to a sphere. > > > >Thanks, > >Scott Waters > > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations >From: "Sean T. Stevenson" >Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 11:24 am >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the >forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly >constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no >problem. > >Sean > >_____________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 16:35:45 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:35:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: Sean, That's really cool. I truely appriciate your efforts.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone"Sean T. Stevenson" wrote:I am working on it, but it's a hobby project. I am only able to put in small bits of time here and there owing to my other commitments. As soon as I have something that I'm comfortable releasing as a community utility, I'll have Jon set it up on the website. Sean On April 14, 2014 1:09:37 PM MDT, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: Sean, I don't believe I know the geometry. I guess in short term, I am looking for the pros and cons on a deep submarine?for cylinder with?ribs compared to a sphere. ? Thanks, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations From: "Sean T. Stevenson" Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 11:24 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no problem. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Mon Apr 14 16:35:50 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:35:50 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <837c90d7-881a-45be-a384-52e2e691d522@email.android.com> That really comes down to the effective use of space. Sphere is stronger, displaces less, weighs less for same depth, and is simpler (no stiffeners). However, diameter is the only factor you can change to play with available space, which you may not be able to use effectively. Cylinder allows you to play with both diameter and length, as as such is more versatile, but will be heavier for same depth and space, requires stiffening / more welding. Spheres are also difficult to fabricate to strict tolerance - either to spin them and carry extraneous weight to meet minimum thickness, or you press segments and weld them together, which allows better thickness control but is a lot of welding. Sean On April 14, 2014 1:09:37 PM MDT, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: >Sean, > >I don't believe I know the geometry. I guess in short term, I am >looking for the pros and cons on a deep submarine for cylinder with >ribs compared to a sphere. > > > >Thanks, > >Scott Waters > > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations >From: "Sean T. Stevenson" >Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 11:24 am >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the >forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly >constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no >problem. > >Sean > >_____________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 17:37:30 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:37:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: <20140414143730.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b7ddac46ad.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 17:44:42 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:44:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys Message-ID: <20140414144442.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b93e98bbef.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 17:57:05 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:57:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question Message-ID: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Mon Apr 14 18:03:39 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 18:03:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question In-Reply-To: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Alvin carried steel drop weights which were dropped at depth. The new system is like the Mirs and the Pisces before them-- vbts and high pressure pumps. Titanium hulls don't compress at depth so are actually more buoyant at 20,000 feet than at the surface due to increased water density. All that has to be taken into account. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:57 PM, wrote: > > I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea submarines. How do they go up and down? > Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I have never understood it. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 18:25:35 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:25:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question Message-ID: <20140414152535.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.0c72b9b0cc.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Mon Apr 14 19:21:58 2014 From: cast55 at telus.net (Sean T. Stevenson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question In-Reply-To: References: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1447132759.3501856.1397517718188.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net> Vance - that doesn't seem accurate. Compressibility of a material is the inverse of its bulk modulus. For ASTM A516 grade 70 carbon steel, the bulk modulus is 140 GPa, and for ASTM B265 grade 5 titanium it is 110 GPa. So the steel actually performs better in that regard. Was the Alvin sphere made from some atypical alloy? Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Bradley" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:03:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question Alvin carried steel drop weights which were dropped at depth. The new system is like the Mirs and the Pisces before them-- vbts and high pressure pumps. Titanium hulls don't compress at depth so are actually more buoyant at 20,000 feet than at the surface due to increased water density. All that has to be taken into account. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:57 PM, < swaters at waters-ks.com > wrote: I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea submarines. How do they go up and down? Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I have never understood it. Thanks, Scott Waters
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobtravis at comcast.net Mon Apr 14 20:08:18 2014 From: bobtravis at comcast.net (Bob Travis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:08:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question In-Reply-To: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <42D6D830-88C5-4B3C-A04B-8B7A3427DA0A@comcast.net> Scott, My name is Bob and I'm working on a K-350. I have looked at your photos of Trustworthy and was wondering if I could contact you off line with some specific questions? Thanks, Bob Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 2:57 PM, wrote: > > I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea submarines. How do they go up and down? > Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I have never understood it. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Apr 14 20:21:57 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:21:57 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question Message-ID: Most deffenetly Bob! I will do anything to help a fellow psubber! Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneBob Travis wrote:Scott, My name is Bob and I'm working on a K-350. I have looked at your photos of Trustworthy and was wondering if I could contact you off line with some specific questions? Thanks, Bob Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2014, at 2:57 PM, wrote: I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea submarines. How do they go up and down? Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I have never understood it. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From VBra676539 at AOL.com Mon Apr 14 20:40:25 2014 From: VBra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:40:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question In-Reply-To: <1447132759.3501856.1397517718188.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net> References: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1447132759.3501856.1397517718188.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: <3F205D05-3263-4463-9DDE-F49C3DCFCA08@AOL.com> I don't recall the specific mix for Alvin. You are right of course for comparable wall thicknesses, but the way I understand it from tabletop descriptions, steel compresses more. The Mirs are maraging steel and have seawater vbts to compensate buoyancy variables. The new Alvin iteration is equipped the same way. The Ti sphere Is 3.5" wall, I think, which I speculate to be effectively non or near noncompressable for the given operating pressure of 11,000 psi. Or so the story goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 7:21 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > > Vance - that doesn't seem accurate. Compressibility of a material is the inverse of its bulk modulus. For ASTM A516 grade 70 carbon steel, the bulk modulus is 140 GPa, and for ASTM B265 grade 5 titanium it is 110 GPa. So the steel actually performs better in that regard. Was the Alvin sphere made from some atypical alloy? > > Sean > > > From: "Vance Bradley" > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:03:39 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question > > Alvin carried steel drop weights which were dropped at depth. The new system is like the Mirs and the Pisces before them-- vbts and high pressure pumps. Titanium hulls don't compress at depth so are actually more buoyant at 20,000 feet than at the surface due to increased water density. All that has to be taken into account. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:57 PM, wrote: > > I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea submarines. How do they go up and down? > Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I have never understood it. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 21:14:52 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:14:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys In-Reply-To: <20140414144442.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b93e98bbef.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140414144442.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b93e98bbef.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Very good point Scott, its not just the sub itself that needs to be thought of. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:44 PM, wrote: > Douglas, > Yes, it is around 15' slightly longer because of the coupler and doubles > to 30'. It is heavy, but two people can lift it off of the trailer or one > person can maneuver it off and roll it. The nice thing about it is how > stout it is. It rides right along side of the submarine. The 8,000lb gantry > lift I got from Texas of Craig's list(Thanks Jim!!!). The chain hoist is a > harbor freight 5 ton, and the geared trolly is from Northern tool. > > One main thing I learned after building my sub, is building the sub is > only half of what you need. All the support stuff and maintenance stuff is > just as much part of the equation. > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New toys > From: Douglas Suhr > Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 12:50 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Just checked out your pictures Scott, very nice! Is that extension 15 feet > with one full length doubler for 30 feet?and how do you carry it on the > trailer? I love the gantry lift. That's the one you found in TX, correct? ~ > Douglas S. > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:27 PM, wrote: > >> I just loaded some pictures of my new toys on my account under KW-350 >> Trustworthy >> >> A picture of my trailer extension I built for launching the sub (extends >> up to 30'!) >> >> A picture of my new gantry lift for loading the sub on and off of trailers >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 21:40:43 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:40:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question In-Reply-To: <3F205D05-3263-4463-9DDE-F49C3DCFCA08@AOL.com> References: <20140414145705.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.119c6760c6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <1447132759.3501856.1397517718188.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net> <3F205D05-3263-4463-9DDE-F49C3DCFCA08@AOL.com> Message-ID: Personally, I am very much in favor of diving with slight positive buoyancy and using downward thrust for diving as SeaMagine and many other seem to be doing these days. Obviously this is a very power intensive way of diving, but if you can spare the power (or better yet increase your power capacity) I feel its the best (and safest) way to go. If a power failure occurs, you are automatically on your way up, no drop weights wasted. Having dedicated thrusters for this purpose is best because multitasking with horizontal mobility would be difficult. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > I don't recall the specific mix for Alvin. You are right of course for > comparable wall thicknesses, but the way I understand it from tabletop > descriptions, steel compresses more. The Mirs are maraging steel and have > seawater vbts to compensate buoyancy variables. The new Alvin iteration is > equipped the same way. The Ti sphere Is 3.5" wall, I think, which I > speculate to be effectively non or near noncompressable for the given > operating pressure of 11,000 psi. Or so the story goes. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2014, at 7:21 PM, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: > > Vance - that doesn't seem accurate. Compressibility of a material is the > inverse of its bulk modulus. For ASTM A516 grade 70 carbon steel, the bulk > modulus is 140 GPa, and for ASTM B265 grade 5 titanium it is 110 GPa. So > the steel actually performs better in that regard. Was the Alvin sphere > made from some atypical alloy? > > Sean > > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Vance Bradley" > *To: *"Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent: *Monday, April 14, 2014 4:03:39 PM > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep sea question > > Alvin carried steel drop weights which were dropped at depth. The new > system is like the Mirs and the Pisces before them-- vbts and high pressure > pumps. Titanium hulls don't compress at depth so are actually more buoyant > at 20,000 feet than at the surface due to increased water density. All that > has to be taken into account. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:57 PM, wrote: > > I have a question I have never understood about really deep sea > submarines. How do they go up and down? > Submarines that use compressed air at 3,000 psi like ours could only go so > deep before the water pressure is to great for the HP air. What do > submarines like Alvin do? This is probably a really stupid question, but I > have never understood it. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Apr 14 22:46:27 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:46:27 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> Message-ID: <534C9D83.3050204@archivale.com> I had blundered into that photo collection some time ago, forgot to bookmark it and couldn't find my way back. Thanks! What was the reason for the wavy cross-section of the barge hull? Marc On 4/15/2014 1:43 AM, Jim Rudholm wrote: > Here are a few photos of my party barge, 26' x 8', built in 1968. > Also some photos of Martin Iron's Fibersteel mold and a hull in West > Sacramento, CA. I had returned from two years with the Navy in Japan > and had picked up several cargo parachutes at a surplus store. These > made for an interesting air inflated building, they were treated with a > plastic preservative coating, but the UV eventually deteriorated the nylon. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/110939032764686627267/albums/5294994060907444593?banner=pwa > > JimR > > > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jim Rudholm > wrote: > > Plenty of photos at: > concretesubmarine.com > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Marc de Piolenc > > wrote: > > Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... > > Marc > > On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Marc, > > Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > > > ------------------------------__------------------------------__------------ > *From: * Marc de Piolenc >; > *To: * >; > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > *Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM > > Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick > and very > little freeboard. Any lives lost? > > Marc > > On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is > a tendency to > > go big and unwieldy. > > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub > yacht? It's on > > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. > > > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------__------------------------------__------------ > > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson >; > > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >; > > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM > > > > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra > high-performace > > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber > reinforcement. Working > > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while > the compressive > > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 > MPa, so you > > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. > Sphere may not > > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably > require some sort of > > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: > > > > > > > > > > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer > properties of fly ash. > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >>> Marc, > >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we > fill the wall and > >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" > >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete > together, it stays > >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must > use fly ash > >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there > are no fines > >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. > Fly ash is like > >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the > hose. These are > >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to > go. Four inches > >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. > >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I > would still use > >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I > drove my bob-cat > >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, > very > >>> scientific .lol > >>> > >>> Hank > >>> ------------------------------__-------------- > >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc > > > wrote: > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete > >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.__org > > >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM > >>> > >>> Actually, all else being equal, using > >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. > Coarse > >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable > - as > >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative > effect > >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is > brushed to > >>> show off the aggregate. > >>> > >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength > applications, > >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically > inert > >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous > aggregate > >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting > slowly > >>> with the matrix long after cure. > >>> > >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form of > >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a > >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is > that > >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed DURING > >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. > >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash > cement > >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this > >>> effect. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Marc de Piolenc > >>> Ferrocement freak > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 15 09:22:21 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 06:22:21 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub Message-ID: <20140415062221.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.508363ccf5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimrudholm at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 10:31:06 2014 From: jimrudholm at gmail.com (Jim Rudholm) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 07:31:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete In-Reply-To: <534C9D83.3050204@archivale.com> References: <1397472754.92981.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <534BE24E.9060706@archivale.com> <534C9D83.3050204@archivale.com> Message-ID: Marc, I wanted a catamaran for stability. The design gave an easy layup of both cross wires and plaster mesh. It was also easy to plaster as there were no sharp corners. Thickness was about 5/8", I don't remember the weight. I had a book by Pier Luigi Nervi showing one of his folded roof designs for a Turin Exhibition hall. There was also a landing craft built by the R. G. LeTourneau Co. with the bottom segments of pipe welded into a corrugated pattern. It did not need longitudinal framing or stringers, just transverse bulkheads. My barge did not have any frames, just light steel sheet 'C' section deck beams on 16" centers for the plywood deck. I doubt the solid f-c bulwarks were necessary. It was sold and was made into a houseboat for one of the central California lakes. JimR On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > I had blundered into that photo collection some time ago, forgot to > bookmark it and couldn't find my way back. Thanks! > > What was the reason for the wavy cross-section of the barge hull? > > Marc > > > On 4/15/2014 1:43 AM, Jim Rudholm wrote: > >> Here are a few photos of my party barge, 26' x 8', built in 1968. >> Also some photos of Martin Iron's Fibersteel mold and a hull in West >> Sacramento, CA. I had returned from two years with the Navy in Japan >> and had picked up several cargo parachutes at a surplus store. These >> made for an interesting air inflated building, they were treated with a >> plastic preservative coating, but the UV eventually deteriorated the >> nylon. >> >> https://plus.google.com/photos/110939032764686627267/ >> albums/5294994060907444593?banner=pwa >> >> JimR >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jim Rudholm > > wrote: >> >> Plenty of photos at: >> concretesubmarine.com >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Marc de Piolenc >> > wrote: >> >> Fascinating. I think that counts as water pollution in Europe... >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/14/2014 6:52 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >> Marc, >> >> Strictly from my foggy memory, but I believe it was scuttled. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> > > >> >> >> ------------------------------__---------------------------- >> --__------------ >> >> *From: * Marc de Piolenc > >; >> *To: * > >; >> >> *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> *Sent: * Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:30:48 AM >> >> Really - it sank? Mind you, it did have walls 6 inches thick >> and very >> little freeboard. Any lives lost? >> >> Marc >> >> On 4/13/2014 10:35 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > It seems to me that with reduced cost materials there is >> a tendency to >> > go big and unwieldy. >> > Wasn't that the case with that one fellows concrete sub >> yacht? It's on >> > the bottom of a lake somewhere if I recall. >> > >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> > > >> >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------__---------------------------- >> --__------------ >> >> > *From: * Sean T. Stevenson > >; >> >> > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> >; >> >> > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> > *Sent: * Sun, Apr 13, 2014 6:16:35 AM >> > >> > I ran that same 6' diameter 4" shell, but using an ultra >> high-performace >> > concrete with no aggregate, but with steel fiber >> reinforcement. Working >> > pressure came out to more than 1700 m. That said, while >> the compressive >> > strength of this stuff is 160 MPa, the tensile is only 8 >> MPa, so you >> > absolutely have to avoid putting this stuff in tension. >> Sphere may not >> > be an issue, but a cylindrical hull would probably >> require some sort of >> > pretensioned reinforcement. Results: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 2014-04-12 21:52, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> >> I had forgotten about the lubricant/plasticizer >> properties of fly ash. >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 4/13/2014 10:55 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>> Marc, >> >>> We don't get segregation at all, when pumping it we >> fill the wall and >> >>> then let it flow, I call it "ride the wave" >> >>> Also pumping the concrete helps hold the concrete >> together, it stays >> >>> in a cylinder shape until it hits the wave. We must >> use fly ash >> >>> because the aggregate and sand is washed so well there >> are no fines >> >>> left. The jagged sand won't flow through the hose. >> Fly ash is like >> >>> little ball bearings and makes it flow through the >> hose. These are >> >>> the things that make me think a mold is the way to >> go. Four inches >> >>> wall thickness would be a breeze for this mix. >> >>> That makes sense that the rock is a cheap filler. I >> would still use >> >>> the pea gravel mix, I have made a test panel and I >> drove my bob-cat >> >>> over a 2in thick 4by4 panel with no breakage. I know, >> very >> >>> scientific .lol >> >>> >> >>> Hank >> >>> ------------------------------__-------------- >> >> >>> On Sat, 4/12/14, Marc de Piolenc >> >> >> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] concrete >> >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.__org >> >> >> >>> Received: Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:40 PM >> >>> >> >>> Actually, all else being equal, using >> >>> only fine aggregate (sand) will give a stronger mix. >> Coarse >> >>> aggregate is needed mainly to make the mix affordable >> - as >> >>> bulk filler, in other words - and also for decorative >> effect >> >>> in some applications where the fresh concrete is >> brushed to >> >>> show off the aggregate. >> >>> >> >>> You have to be careful, in very high-strength >> applications, >> >>> to make sure that the coarse aggregate is chemically >> inert >> >>> with respect to the cement matrix. Some siliceous >> aggregate >> >>> will weaken the concrete in the long term by reacting >> slowly >> >>> with the matrix long after cure. >> >>> >> >>> Confusingly, very fine silica incorporated in the form >> of >> >>> fly ash, rice husk ash or silica fume can give a >> >>> super-HIGH-strength mix. The reason for the effect is >> that >> >>> the very fine silica reacts with the alkali formed >> DURING >> >>> cure and actually strengthens the cement matrix. >> >>> Unfortunately, much of the fly-ash and volcanic ash >> cement >> >>> on the market is too coarsely ground to harness this >> >>> effect. >> >>> >> >>> Best, >> >>> Marc de Piolenc >> >>> Ferrocement freak >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >> >> > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___ >> submersibles >> > submersibles> >> > >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog >> >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 >> >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc >> >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _________________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___ >> submersibles >> > submersibles> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___ >> submersibles >> > submersibles> >> >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog >> >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 >> >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc >> >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _________________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___ >> submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Apr 15 12:27:09 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:27:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub In-Reply-To: <20140415062221.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.508363ccf5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140415062221.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.508363ccf5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <534D5DDD.2010702@psubs.org> Some things to consider. The discussion started with a purpose of commercial diving for profit. I think you'll have a very tough time finding a public grant to underwrite that purpose. I believe searching for a grant would mean setting up a non-profit and building the submarine primarily for non-profit use, ie underwater conservation as you've indicated. However, that means Scott Waters would not own a 3k capable sub, the non-profit would and they could also limit your use of it. Steve Jobs started APPLE but was also dumped by them. Ken Olsen started Digital Equipment Company but was dumped by them. The corporate world is littered with such illustrative cases. So even if you founded the non-profit and was a founding executive of it there is no guarantee that you would remain one and be able to get the full use out of the submarine that you intended. You might also have to justify why a 3k capable sub is necessary for underwater conservation, ie how many things worth conserving are located between 1k and 3k feet? At those depths which are out of reach for virtually 99.9% of the worlds population, who is going to benefit from such conservation? For example, a grant for a K-250 would be factors easier because you could justify researching and conserving hundreds of miles of coral reef within easy access of sport divers and glass-bottom boats in the shallow Florida waters which would serve to educate thousands of visitors each year. You would probably be better off getting a private group of investors whom share your love of fabrication and underwater exploration, and forming a time-share agreement for use of the submarine between them. That limits your own investment and likely gets you enough time to do the kind of things you want to do with the submarine when it's your time to use it. Or go back to your commercial diving purpose and find a handful of investors to form a corporation for that purpose. As long as you're still connected with your hardware business, sharing the profits of the commercial submarine may not be too bad starting off. As the business grew you might eventually be able to buy out some of the beginning investors and gain more profit. Your self-admittance (honorable and honest, certainly) that you are not a very good engineer or fabricator is not going to provide the kind of confidence that serious investors, public or private, are going to be looking for especially when you are trying to sell the idea of a vessel that will require very good engineering and fabrication. You would likely get back a counter stating, yeah we're in but not if you build it. Now the "group" goes out to bid for a commercially built submarine at a price that you can't afford to participate in and all of a sudden you're out and they are running away with your idea. Having good business abilities and being able to pull resources together is a great gift but such a manager whom also has a devoted interest in submarines probably isn't necessary. Some investors may feel that having a manager not emotionally tied to the project would be a better choice to ensure budgets stay within reason. Jon On 4/15/2014 9:22 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > So I believe in order to reach this goal of a extremely deep diving > very work capable submarine I am going to have to really tap some > resources. I think I have a few choices > *Devote as much of my own money to making this project possible which > I worry is not enough. > *Stop working on the sub project and focus on growing my business for > a number of years and "someday" get back to it when I have the resources. > *Earn a grant(s) to make this project possible > I know asking for a grant is like a business plan. The contributor > wants to see the plan, the aimed goal, as many securities as possible, > and a benefit to themselves to contributing. I believe in order to > truly reach my next goal that I have to work towards a grant. I have > two main questions for the group > 1) Who would be good prospects for a grant, how do I approach them, > and does anyone have any experience they could pass along the way? > 2) What kind of goals could this submarine be geared towards that > would be attractive to a contributor? I don't believe "Underwater > conservation" is good enough, they would want specifics. > I am not a very good engineer, not the best fabricator, but have good > business abilities and good at pulling resources to make things > possible. I think with the help of everyone on psubs this can be a > reality. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 15 14:20:34 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:20:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub Message-ID: <20140415112034.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.9b3a1a8485.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Apr 15 14:58:57 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:58:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub In-Reply-To: <20140415112034.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.9b3a1a8485.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140415112034.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.9b3a1a8485.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <534D8171.9050706@psubs.org> Scott, If you just need someone to manage the commercial diving business, I'm available. Just need a six figure salary, full benefits, and 10 year contract. :) Jon On 4/15/2014 2:20 PM, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: > Good points Jon. > I will be asking a lot of questions to explore how to go about this > project. I guess when I say I am not a good engineer, I am referring > to the physics and metallurgy aspect that Sean has been helping me out > with. As far as designing part I am pretty good at that. And when it > comes to fabrication, I am a good welder and decent machinist, but for > they things I can't do or are uncomfortable doing, I contract them out. > I understand the scare of going not for profit. Perhaps a business may > be the way to go. I am really good at that as it is. The part I don't > know is what I would consider the "sales" side of commercial work. > Meaning how do you go about getting jobs and bid on projects. The > other slight problem is in a vessel like that, I wouldn't be able to > ditch my existing business to devote 100% of my time to a commercial > submarine, so I would need someone to manage the business. > Good thing is, I spend a lot of time researching and asking questions > before I pull the trigger on a project. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 15 16:24:50 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:24:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub Message-ID: <20140415132450.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e8d34e4b80.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 19:20:14 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:20:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub In-Reply-To: <534D5DDD.2010702@psubs.org> References: <20140415062221.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.508363ccf5.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <534D5DDD.2010702@psubs.org> Message-ID: Scott will have a diorama like Steve Jobs in his garage at the top of the Spaceship Earth exhibit at Epcot once he discovers the luminescent intelligent civilization living in the depths of Kansas lakes! :) Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Some things to consider. The discussion started with a purpose of commercial diving for profit. I think you'll have a very tough time finding a public grant to underwrite that purpose. I believe searching for a grant would mean setting up a non-profit and building the submarine primarily for non-profit use, ie underwater conservation as you've indicated. However, that means Scott Waters would not own a 3k capable sub, the non-profit would and they could also limit your use of it. Steve Jobs started APPLE but was also dumped by them. Ken Olsen started Digital Equipment Company but was dumped by them. The corporate world is littered with such illustrative cases. So even if you founded the non-profit and was a founding executive of it there is no guarantee that you would remain one and be able to get the full use out of the submarine that you intended. > > You might also have to justify why a 3k capable sub is necessary for underwater conservation, ie how many things worth conserving are located between 1k and 3k feet? At those depths which are out of reach for virtually 99.9% of the worlds population, who is going to benefit from such conservation? For example, a grant for a K-250 would be factors easier because you could justify researching and conserving hundreds of miles of coral reef within easy access of sport divers and glass-bottom boats in the shallow Florida waters which would serve to educate thousands of visitors each year. > > You would probably be better off getting a private group of investors whom share your love of fabrication and underwater exploration, and forming a time-share agreement for use of the submarine between them. That limits your own investment and likely gets you enough time to do the kind of things you want to do with the submarine when it's your time to use it. Or go back to your commercial diving purpose and find a handful of investors to form a corporation for that purpose. As long as you're still connected with your hardware business, sharing the profits of the commercial submarine may not be too bad starting off. As the business grew you might eventually be able to buy out some of the beginning investors and gain more profit. > > Your self-admittance (honorable and honest, certainly) that you are not a very good engineer or fabricator is not going to provide the kind of confidence that serious investors, public or private, are going to be looking for especially when you are trying to sell the idea of a vessel that will require very good engineering and fabrication. You would likely get back a counter stating, yeah we're in but not if you build it. Now the "group" goes out to bid for a commercially built submarine at a price that you can't afford to participate in and all of a sudden you're out and they are running away with your idea. Having good business abilities and being able to pull resources together is a great gift but such a manager whom also has a devoted interest in submarines probably isn't necessary. Some investors may feel that having a manager not emotionally tied to the project would be a better choice to ensure budgets stay within reason. > > Jon > > > On 4/15/2014 9:22 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com wrote: >> So I believe in order to reach this goal of a extremely deep diving very work capable submarine I am going to have to really tap some resources. I think I have a few choices >> *Devote as much of my own money to making this project possible which I worry is not enough. >> *Stop working on the sub project and focus on growing my business for a number of years and "someday" get back to it when I have the resources. >> *Earn a grant(s) to make this project possible >> >> I know asking for a grant is like a business plan. The contributor wants to see the plan, the aimed goal, as many securities as possible, and a benefit to themselves to contributing. I believe in order to truly reach my next goal that I have to work towards a grant. I have two main questions for the group >> >> 1) Who would be good prospects for a grant, how do I approach them, and does anyone have any experience they could pass along the way? >> 2) What kind of goals could this submarine be geared towards that would be attractive to a contributor? I don't believe "Underwater conservation" is good enough, they would want specifics. >> >> I am not a very good engineer, not the best fabricator, but have good business abilities and good at pulling resources to make things possible. I think with the help of everyone on psubs this can be a reality. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Apr 15 19:35:08 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:35:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new sub Message-ID: <20140415163508.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.9d90f2a194.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 00:25:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:25:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: <1397504664.95454.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1397504664.95454.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: test test test From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 00:27:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:27:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: References: <1397504664.95454.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ok ok ok Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 16, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > > test test test > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 00:29:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery Message-ID: Got it, Got it, Got it. In a message dated 4/15/2014 11:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: test test test _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 00:31:53 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:31:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery Message-ID: Copy. Test recieved. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePersonal Submersibles General Discussion wrote:Ok ok ok Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 16, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > > test test test > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 00:48:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:48:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Failed Delivery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To all YAHOO users -------------------------- I've cleared the "bounce" database again so please disregard the message about disabling your account if more bounces occur. The problem is spam control that yahoo has recently implemented which requires that email sent to you, from you, actually came from you. So let me explain. xyz at yahoo.com sends a message to our mailing list and the list software rewrites the headers so it can forward that mail to everyone on the list including xyz at yahoo.com. You will note in the past the "FROM:" address would have the senders email address, in this example "xyz at yahoo.com" when actually the email came from the psubs.org mailing list software. This is normal for mailing lists but yahoo doesn't permit it anymore in favor of reducing spam. Yahoo now checks to see if mail "From: xyz at yahoo.com" actually came from yahoo.com, and admits that this tactic breaks a lot of existing mailing list practices. I have temporarily changed the software to rewrite the FROM header as personal_submersibles at psubs.org instead of the actual sender of the email. This is not ideal since it hides the original authors identity and makes it virtually impossible for the receiver to identify who's in the discussion unless they absolutely include their name in the body of the message. We'll use this method temporarily to get past the immediate yahoo rejections that people are seeing but I think it's not going to be something we want to keep implemented long term. Those of us with yahoo accounts may have to just move over to google. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 01:25:42 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:55:42 +0930 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Sean, I don't believe I know the geometry. I guess in short term, I am looking for the pros and cons on a deep submarine for cylinder with ribs compared to a sphere. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations From: "Sean T. Stevenson" Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 11:24 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no problem. Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 01:57:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:57:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , > Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been > away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. > Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for > material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few > problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and > maybe others on how to use it correctly? > In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness > of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to > roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I > want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project > Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; > A Sphere 2 meters diameter > A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long > ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, > however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight > that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me > andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) > The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for > 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. > Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me > Thank you > Les > > P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look > completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the > above how would I calculate the > volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum > submergance > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 11:12:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image002.png Type: image/unknown Size: 3109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 12:41:10 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, You missed a step, If the sphere is welded to the cylinder like a giant deep worker. Then your calculation needs to remove part of the volume of the sphere. The portion of sphere volume that intrudes into the cylinder needs to be removed from the total volume. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/16/14, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Wednesday, April 16, 2014, 11:12 AM Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. ? In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. ? To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? ? Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. ? Add the three figures together: Sphere???????? 4.189 Cylinder?????? 4.524 Head??????????? 0.905 ??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume ? As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. ? Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. ? Best regards, Jim T. ? In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les ? P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? ??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 13:09:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: True, Hank, and Sean alluded to that consideration. Same applies to the CT/hatch. I was limiting my comments to the basics to avoid getting into that as well as several others not mentioned which would have to be addressed later. Good observation though, and it is big "detail" such as I was referencing in the last paragraph of my post. For now I only addressed how to calculate volume of two basic shapes in order to get a general idea of displacement and resultant weight. Also the length of the cylinder as specified by Les might already include the tank head whether hemispherical or other. I didn't ask because I just wanted to give him the tools and so he could run his own basic calcs. I have some questions of my own to ask later. Jim. In a message dated 4/16/2014 11:41:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, You missed a step, If the sphere is welded to the cylinder like a giant deep worker. Then your calculation needs to remove part of the volume of the sphere. The portion of sphere volume that intrudes into the cylinder needs to be removed from the total volume. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/16/14, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Wednesday, April 16, 2014, 11:12 AM Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 16:52:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test: Please ignore Message-ID: I got another message that my account is being deactivated due to excessive bounce backs. This test is to gather clues as to what is happening. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 17:16:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:16:57 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePersonal Submersibles General Discussion wrote:Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. ? In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. ? To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? ? Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. ? Add the three figures together: Sphere???????? 4.189 Cylinder?????? 4.524 Head??????????? 0.905 ??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume ? As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. ? Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. ? Best regards, Jim T. ? In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les ? P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? ??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image002.png Type: image/unknown Size: 3109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 17:28:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:28:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads > V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > Hi Les, > The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. > > In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. > > To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. > > Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. > > Add the three figures together: > Sphere 4.189 > Cylinder 4.524 > Head 0.905 > 9.618 m3 Total volume > > As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. > > Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. > > Best regards, > Jim T. > > In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? > > Sean > > >> On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >> Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >> Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >> Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >> In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >> Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >> A Sphere 2 meters diameter >> A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >> ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >> The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >> Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me >> Thank you >> Les >> >> P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the >> volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 17:43:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:43:20 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: Ok. I figured as much.? Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePersonal Submersibles General Discussion wrote:Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. ? In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. ? To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? ? Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. ? Add the three figures together: Sphere???????? 4.189 Cylinder?????? 4.524 Head??????????? 0.905 ??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume ? As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. ? Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. ? Best regards, Jim T. ? In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les ? P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the ? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 17:47:46 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Les, I've been using this free design software for years. It doesn't do everything but is good for rough calculation on basic shapes like cylinders, hemispheres, tubes.? It will show you the weight of your material, the displacement?& crush depth. Alan Under Pressure Design Software | Deep Sea Power & Light Under Pressure Design Software | Deep Sea Power &... Design Loop allows variation of single parameter Calculates both thin wall and thick wall collapse pressures Equations from Roark & Young?s f... View on www.deepsea.com Preview by Yahoo ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les ? P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? ??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: swaters at waters-ks.com >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:39 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > >Sean, >I don't believe I know the geometry. I guess in short term, I am looking for the pros and cons on a deep submarine?for cylinder with?ribs compared to a sphere. >? >Thanks, >Scott Waters? >? >-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations >>From: "Sean T. Stevenson" >>Date: Mon, April 14, 2014 11:24 am >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> >>At present, it will calculate stiffened cylindrical hulls in the forward direction only. The optimization routine is not properly constrained yet. If you already know the geometry you want to use, no problem. >>Sean >> >>________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 21:43:15 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:13:15 +0930 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations References: Message-ID: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 16 23:02:10 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure? > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter? length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder?1.2m x 4 meters long ?indicated that it need be3/4" wall for 314psi?at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder? okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared??= 175.9ft squared?.? Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared)? therefore ? 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared =??8858 lbs (all soft conv)? = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, ?not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming?I am right the?original question I was wanting, was an indication of how? thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight?I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if?weight feasability works then?I?can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate ?physical ?weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not ?confused everyone Cheers Les ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > >Uh...no. > > >Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > >This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads >>V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>Hi Les, >>The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 xr3or V = 4.1888 xr xr xr. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. >>In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. >>To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? >>? >>Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x.63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. >>Add the three figures together: >>Sphere???????? 4.189 >>Cylinder?????? 4.524 >>Head??????????? 0.905 >>??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume >>As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. >>Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. >>Best regards, >>Jim T. >>? >>In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? >>> >>>Sean >>> >>> >>>On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >>>>Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >>>>Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >>>>In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >>>>Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >>>>A Sphere 2 meters diameter >>>>A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >>>>?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >>>>The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >>>>Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me >>>>Thank you >>>>Les >>>>? >>>>P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? >>>>??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? >>>>? >>>> >>>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 01:14:13 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 01:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: Hi Les, The figure of 9858 kg (21,688 lb.) is based solely on the combined volume of the sphere, cylinder, and endcap of the sub. That is, it will displace that many kg or lb of seawater when submerged. Therefore the total vessel must weigh that much in order to submerge (nuetral) whether your hull is 1/4" thick or 2" thick. That includes the sphere, cylinder, radios, lead weights, occupants, lunch, and everything else. Those things that are exterior will increase the displacement some and therefore the total weight requirement as well. Since you don't know the weight and volume (displacement) of those yet, you can't calculate them. However based on your dimensions, the sub would have to weigh in the neighborhood of 11 tons. See the first sentence of Sean's post. If you're comfortable with that, then you can proceed to the other steps in evaluating the feasibility of the project. It's way beyond anything I would desire to tackle. The weight of the water that enters your exterior ballast tanks will not contribute to meeting the required weight of the sub since that water only offsets the displacement of the tanks themselves. Adding more or bigger exterior ballast tanks does not increase the sub's ability to submerge (other than by the weight of the materials composing the tanks). The tanks are for adding buoyancy to the extent of the amount of air within them. Now if your hull and other components total more than 11 tons, you'll need to add static flotation such as syntactic foam to compensate for the excess weight. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with your ballast tanks, but it's not as safe. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/16/2014 8:44:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: _Personal Submersibles General Discussion_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) To: _Personal Submersibles General Discussion_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 01:28:11 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 23:28:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Calculating volume using surface area multiplied by thickness is not accurate unless you use calculus and integrate between the radius limits. Fortunately, this is how we derive the rule-of-thumb formulas for volume, which are simpler and easier to use. For a spherical shell, V = (4/3) ? ? ? (ro^3 - ri^3) For a cylindrical shell, V = ? ? (ro^2 - ri^2) ? L Once you have your material volume, multiply by its density to get the mass. Sean On April 16, 2014 7:43:15 PM MDT, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and >around......good mental exercise??? let us start again >Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated >that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an >indicator) >I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, >the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the >surface area of the cylinder >easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did >the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared >Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared >Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore >289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = >3.95 ton approx. >This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 >Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done >I am sure >Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an >indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size >stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how >much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if >weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as >joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. >The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required >for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of >additional fabricated external tanks >I hope I have not confused everyone >Cheers >Les > > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > > Uh...no. > > > Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion > wrote: > > >This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder >with two hemispherical heads > V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > >Personal Submersibles General Discussion > wrote: > > Hi Les, > >The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . >Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've >done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal >carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it >now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead >and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified >formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can >use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by >plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. > > > >In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius >is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. >Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are >calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet >containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that >formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a >cylinder by dividing it by 2. > > > >To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a >circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For >your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long >cylinder. > > > >Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and >you get a volume of .905 m3. > > > > Add the three figures together: > > Sphere 4.189 > > Cylinder 4.524 > > Head 0.905 > > 9.618 m3 Total volume > > > >As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your >sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to >submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce >that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the >weight of the water in those internal tanks. > > > >Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve >written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of >all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. >That can be done later. > > > > Best regards, > > Jim T. > > >In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the >displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of >seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope >calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, >for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) >gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for >superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are >your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? > > Sean > > > On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been >away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for >material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few >problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and >maybe others on how to use it correctly? >In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of >steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to >roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I >want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project > Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; > A Sphere 2 meters diameter > A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, >however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight >that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me >andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for >250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush >depth. > Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me > Thank you > Les > >P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look >completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the >above how would I calculate the >volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 01:41:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:11:00 +0930 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations References: Message-ID: Hi again Jim , please have patience with me, either I am completely not thinking straight or we are talking apples and oranges ? I am talking about dry air surface land weight , you make a cylinder out of 3/4" steel plate 1.2m diam 4m long with same material end caps What weight are you going to have to lift it with a crane? cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les, The figure of 9858 kg (21,688 lb.) is based solely on the combined volume of the sphere, cylinder, and endcap of the sub. That is, it will displace that many kg or lb of seawater when submerged. Therefore the total vessel must weigh that much in order to submerge (nuetral) whether your hull is 1/4" thick or 2" thick. That includes the sphere, cylinder, radios, lead weights, occupants, lunch, and everything else. Those things that are exterior will increase the displacement some and therefore the total weight requirement as well. Since you don't know the weight and volume (displacement) of those yet, you can't calculate them. However based on your dimensions, the sub would have to weigh in the neighborhood of 11 tons. See the first sentence of Sean's post. If you're comfortable with that, then you can proceed to the other steps in evaluating the feasibility of the project. It's way beyond anything I would desire to tackle. The weight of the water that enters your exterior ballast tanks will not contribute to meeting the required weight of the sub since that water only offsets the displacement of the tanks themselves. Adding more or bigger exterior ballast tanks does not increase the sub's ability to submerge (other than by the weight of the materials composing the tanks). The tanks are for adding buoyancy to the extent of the amount of air within them. Now if your hull and other components total more than 11 tons, you'll need to add static flotation such as syntactic foam to compensate for the excess weight. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with your ballast tanks, but it's not as safe. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/16/2014 8:44:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 02:26:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 23:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Les, in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are 1056.3 ?kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure? > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter? length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder?1.2m x 4 meters long ?indicated that it need be3/4" wall for 314psi?at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder? okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared??= 175.9ft squared?.? Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared)? therefore ? 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared =??8858 lbs (all soft conv)? = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, ?not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming?I am right the?original question I was wanting, was an indication of how? thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight?I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if?weight feasability works then?I?can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate ?physical ?weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not ?confused everyone Cheers Les ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > >Uh...no. > > >Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > >This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads >>V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >> >>Hi Les, >>The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 xr3or V = 4.1888 xr xr xr. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. >>In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. >>To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? >>? >>Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x.63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. >>Add the three figures together: >>Sphere???????? 4.189 >>Cylinder?????? 4.524 >>Head??????????? 0.905 >>??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume >>As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. >>Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. >>Best regards, >>Jim T. >>? >>In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? >>> >>>Sean >>> >>> >>>On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >>>>Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >>>>Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >>>>In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >>>>Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >>>>A Sphere 2 meters diameter >>>>A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >>>>?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >>>>The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >>>>Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me >>>>Thank you >>>>Les >>>>? >>>>P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? >>>>??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? >>>>? >>>> >>>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 02:28:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 02:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Message-ID: Les, I'm talking about how much the whole sub would have to weigh while sitting on a dock or trailer regardless of how much any individual component such as the sphere weighs. You have to start with displacement to determine the weight you'll need to design to. For example, if the dimensions calculate to a volume equal to 22 tons of displacement, then you can begin to add up the weight of the interior items and the net-weight-in-water of the exterior items to see where you stand. If you have an exterior item that weighs 10 lb in air but would displace 1 lb in water, it has a net-weight-in-water (NWW) of 9 lb. So: Hull + radios + electrical system + ballast tanks + all other item + payload (people) = 20 tons on land. You're still 2 tons shy. This means you're going to have to add 2 tons of something (lead weights or whatever) in order to make the sub submerge. No matter how you slice it, it all has to add up to a weight equal to the displacement. For these purposes I'm ignoring the role of motors in powering down to the desired depth when you have a slight positive buoyancy. Jim In a message dated 4/17/2014 12:41:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi again Jim , please have patience with me, either I am completely not thinking straight or we are talking apples and oranges ? I am talking about dry air surface land weight , you make a cylinder out of 3/4" steel plate 1.2m diam 4m long with same material end caps What weight are you going to have to lift it with a crane? cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: _Personal Submersibles General Discussion_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les, The figure of 9858 kg (21,688 lb.) is based solely on the combined volume of the sphere, cylinder, and endcap of the sub. That is, it will displace that many kg or lb of seawater when submerged. Therefore the total vessel must weigh that much in order to submerge (nuetral) whether your hull is 1/4" thick or 2" thick. That includes the sphere, cylinder, radios, lead weights, occupants, lunch, and everything else. Those things that are exterior will increase the displacement some and therefore the total weight requirement as well. Since you don't know the weight and volume (displacement) of those yet, you can't calculate them. However based on your dimensions, the sub would have to weigh in the neighborhood of 11 tons. See the first sentence of Sean's post. If you're comfortable with that, then you can proceed to the other steps in evaluating the feasibility of the project. It's way beyond anything I would desire to tackle. The weight of the water that enters your exterior ballast tanks will not contribute to meeting the required weight of the sub since that water only offsets the displacement of the tanks themselves. Adding more or bigger exterior ballast tanks does not increase the sub's ability to submerge (other than by the weight of the materials composing the tanks). The tanks are for adding buoyancy to the extent of the amount of air within them. Now if your hull and other components total more than 11 tons, you'll need to add static flotation such as syntactic foam to compensate for the excess weight. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with your ballast tanks, but it's not as safe. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/16/2014 8:44:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: _Personal Submersibles General Discussion_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) To: _Personal Submersibles General Discussion_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 03:11:03 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 00:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Les a correction, looking at it again (after being emailed off list by Jim; thanks Jim) I forgot to add in the weight of the cylinder to the calculation should be the displacement = 6869 + the hull weight of 2380.7 = 9149.7 which is more in line with Sean & Jim. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are 1056.3 ?kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure? > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter? length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder?1.2m x 4 meters long ?indicated that it need be3/4" wall for 314psi?at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder? okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared??= 175.9ft squared?.? Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared)? therefore ? 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared =??8858 lbs (all soft conv)? = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, ?not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming?I am right the?original question I was wanting, was an indication of how? thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight?I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if?weight feasability works then?I?can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate ?physical ?weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not ?confused everyone Cheers Les ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > >Uh...no. > > >Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > >This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads >>V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >> >>Hi Les, >>The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 xr3or V = 4.1888 xr xr xr. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. >>In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. >>To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? >>? >>Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x.63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. >>Add the three figures together: >>Sphere???????? 4.189 >>Cylinder?????? 4.524 >>Head??????????? 0.905 >>??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume >>As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. >>Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. >>Best regards, >>Jim T. >>? >>In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? >>> >>>Sean >>> >>> >>>On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >>>>Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >>>>Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >>>>In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >>>>Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >>>>A Sphere 2 meters diameter >>>>A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >>>>?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >>>>The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >>>>Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me >>>>Thank you >>>>Les >>>>? >>>>P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? >>>>??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? >>>>? >>>> >>>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 03:56:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 17:26:21 +0930 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations References: Message-ID: Hi again Jim Yes we are on different page my initial calc was purly to find out how much lighter the shell material would be if I used stiffeners for the same depth. I had not gotten to your stage......and I would still like to know this? However now the embarrasing part...... I was however considering using the water as ballast weight ......which you have now reminded me that it is okay after neutral bouyancy for submerging but not possible to use water tanks to it to creat neutral bouancy ...........dont know where my thinking was. Thanks for your patience Cheers >From dumb Aussie Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, I'm talking about how much the whole sub would have to weigh while sitting on a dock or trailer regardless of how much any individual component such as the sphere weighs. You have to start with displacement to determine the weight you'll need to design to. For example, if the dimensions calculate to a volume equal to 22 tons of displacement, then you can begin to add up the weight of the interior items and the net-weight-in-water of the exterior items to see where you stand. If you have an exterior item that weighs 10 lb in air but would displace 1 lb in water, it has a net-weight-in-water (NWW) of 9 lb. So: Hull + radios + electrical system + ballast tanks + all other item + payload (people) = 20 tons on land. You're still 2 tons shy. This means you're going to have to add 2 tons of something (lead weights or whatever) in order to make the sub submerge. No matter how you slice it, it all has to add up to a weight equal to the displacement. For these purposes I'm ignoring the role of motors in powering down to the desired depth when you have a slight positive buoyancy. Jim In a message dated 4/17/2014 12:41:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi again Jim , please have patience with me, either I am completely not thinking straight or we are talking apples and oranges ? I am talking about dry air surface land weight , you make a cylinder out of 3/4" steel plate 1.2m diam 4m long with same material end caps What weight are you going to have to lift it with a crane? cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les, The figure of 9858 kg (21,688 lb.) is based solely on the combined volume of the sphere, cylinder, and endcap of the sub. That is, it will displace that many kg or lb of seawater when submerged. Therefore the total vessel must weigh that much in order to submerge (nuetral) whether your hull is 1/4" thick or 2" thick. That includes the sphere, cylinder, radios, lead weights, occupants, lunch, and everything else. Those things that are exterior will increase the displacement some and therefore the total weight requirement as well. Since you don't know the weight and volume (displacement) of those yet, you can't calculate them. However based on your dimensions, the sub would have to weigh in the neighborhood of 11 tons. See the first sentence of Sean's post. If you're comfortable with that, then you can proceed to the other steps in evaluating the feasibility of the project. It's way beyond anything I would desire to tackle. The weight of the water that enters your exterior ballast tanks will not contribute to meeting the required weight of the sub since that water only offsets the displacement of the tanks themselves. Adding more or bigger exterior ballast tanks does not increase the sub's ability to submerge (other than by the weight of the materials composing the tanks). The tanks are for adding buoyancy to the extent of the amount of air within them. Now if your hull and other components total more than 11 tons, you'll need to add static flotation such as syntactic foam to compensate for the excess weight. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with your ballast tanks, but it's not as safe. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/16/2014 8:44:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 04:01:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 04:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Okay Alan, I give up. The weight of the hull in water? What does that mean? Displacement is calculated at the outer skin diameter of the pressure hull which, along with the displacement of externally added bits and pieces, give you a total payload number in pounds or kilos (depending on your preference). So if we're talking about a 12,000 pound displacement in seawater for a finished sub, for instance, then you have a crane weight in air of the same amount less the variable payload (crew, vbt fluids, etc., call that 1,000 pounds for convenience). If your pressure hull weighs 5500 pounds, for instance, then during the design phase you have essentially the other 5500 pounds of that 11,000 (12,000 minus the adjustable payload reserve of 1,000 pounds) to play with in permanent gear and so on (motors, decking, electrical distribution, batteries, drop weights, ballast tanks, guard rails, and so on). The 11,000 pound total is your deadweight, or crane weight. Add crew and ham sandwiches and pee bottles, plus some variable ballast water and, all things being equal, you vent the mains and reach (or at least strive for) neutral buoyancy. I have this feeling that we are all talking about the same thing, only backwards. After all, don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand, or is that hurricanes? I get those two mixed up. In any case, was that what you just said, only different? I'm guessing the weight in water means the weight OF water displaced by the hull. Yes, no? Or am I missing something? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 3:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les a correction, looking at it again (after being emailed off list by Jim; thanks Jim) I forgot to add in the weight of the cylinder to the calculation should be the displacement = 6869 + the hull weight of 2380.7 = 9149.7 which is more in line with Sean & Jim. Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are 1056.3 kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 04:19:02 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 04:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Les and Jim, Sorry, saw this late. I gave a similar answer on another email. You figure the displacement (which would include hard variable ballast tanks if mounted externally). That way you add water, which changes the sub's weight without changing its displacement). Main ballast or fairwater tanks are an entirely different issue, as they do in fact change the sub's displacement for surface work. Keep in mind, however, that syntactic foam (as a for instance) is AIR--hollow glass micro balloons in an epoxy matrix, so it is in fact a method to use air for overall buoyancy. It is not a controllable quantity beyond the design and fabrication phase. Syntactic imposes weight and displacement issues of its own (roughly 50% lift per cubic whatever--A cubic foot of syntactic as an example, weighs about 30 pounds and the other 34 pounds of the displaced volume is positive. Without it, Alvin would be dragging its shiny new butt in the dirt all the time, and we certainly couldn't have that. My apologies if this has become patently obvious by now. It's late, or early depending on whether you are on night shift or not (I am). In either case, my reading glasses are fogging up down here at the gateway to the Florida Keys. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 3:56 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi again Jim Yes we are on different page my initial calc was purly to find out how much lighter the shell material would be if I used stiffeners for the same depth. I had not gotten to your stage......and I would still like to know this? However now the embarrasing part...... I was however considering using the water as ballast weight ......which you have now reminded me that it is okay after neutral bouyancy for submerging but not possible to use water tanks to it to creat neutral bouancy ...........dont know where my thinking was. Thanks for your patience Cheers >From dumb Aussie Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, I'm talking about how much the whole sub would have to weigh while sitting on a dock or trailer regardless of how much any individual component such as the sphere weighs. You have to start with displacement to determine the weight you'll need to design to. For example, if the dimensions calculate to a volume equal to 22 tons of displacement, then you can begin to add up the weight of the interior items and the net-weight-in-water of the exterior items to see where you stand. If you have an exterior item that weighs 10 lb in air but would displace 1 lb in water, it has a net-weight-in-water (NWW) of 9 lb. So: Hull + radios + electrical system + ballast tanks + all other item + payload (people) = 20 tons on land. You're still 2 tons shy. This means you're going to have to add 2 tons of something (lead weights or whatever) in order to make the sub submerge. No matter how you slice it, it all has to add up to a weight equal to the displacement. For these purposes I'm ignoring the role of motors in powering down to the desired depth when you have a slight positive buoyancy. Jim In a message dated 4/17/2014 12:41:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi again Jim , please have patience with me, either I am completely not thinking straight or we are talking apples and oranges ? I am talking about dry air surface land weight , you make a cylinder out of 3/4" steel plate 1.2m diam 4m long with same material end caps What weight are you going to have to lift it with a crane? cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les, The figure of 9858 kg (21,688 lb.) is based solely on the combined volume of the sphere, cylinder, and endcap of the sub. That is, it will displace that many kg or lb of seawater when submerged. Therefore the total vessel must weigh that much in order to submerge (nuetral) whether your hull is 1/4" thick or 2" thick. That includes the sphere, cylinder, radios, lead weights, occupants, lunch, and everything else. Those things that are exterior will increase the displacement some and therefore the total weight requirement as well. Since you don't know the weight and volume (displacement) of those yet, you can't calculate them. However based on your dimensions, the sub would have to weigh in the neighborhood of 11 tons. See the first sentence of Sean's post. If you're comfortable with that, then you can proceed to the other steps in evaluating the feasibility of the project. It's way beyond anything I would desire to tackle. The weight of the water that enters your exterior ballast tanks will not contribute to meeting the required weight of the sub since that water only offsets the displacement of the tanks themselves. Adding more or bigger exterior ballast tanks does not increase the sub's ability to submerge (other than by the weight of the materials composing the tanks). The tanks are for adding buoyancy to the extent of the amount of air within them. Now if your hull and other components total more than 11 tons, you'll need to add static flotation such as syntactic foam to compensate for the excess weight. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with your ballast tanks, but it's not as safe. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 4/16/2014 8:44:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 04:32:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 01:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vance, .>>don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand. ? No that's bath tubs. It's how this "American" program I'm using states it. It has readings for weight in air & weight in water. If you weigh 200lb & jump in the water & you are neutrally buoyant then it would say you way nothing in water & your air weight was 200lb. It is helpful to see at an instant what weight you would need to add to achieve neutral buoyancy. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Okay Alan, I give up. The weight of the hull in water? What does that mean? Displacement is calculated at the outer skin diameter of the pressure hull which, along with the displacement of externally added bits and pieces, give you a total payload number in pounds or kilos (depending on your preference). So if we're talking about a 12,000 pound displacement in seawater for a finished sub, for instance, then you have a crane weight in air of the same amount less the variable payload (crew, vbt fluids, etc., call that 1,000 pounds for convenience). If your pressure hull weighs 5500 pounds, for instance, then during the design phase you have essentially the other 5500 pounds of that 11,000 (12,000 minus the adjustable payload reserve of 1,000 pounds) to play with in permanent gear and so on (motors, decking, electrical distribution, batteries, drop weights, ballast tanks, guard rails, and so on). The 11,000 pound total is your deadweight, or crane weight. Add crew and ham sandwiches and pee bottles, plus some variable ballast water and, all things being equal, you vent the mains and reach (or at least strive for) neutral buoyancy. I have this feeling that we are all talking about the same thing, only backwards. After all, don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand, or is that hurricanes? I get those two mixed up. In any case, was that what you just said, only different? I'm guessing the weight in water means the weight OF water displaced by the hull. Yes, no? Or am I missing something? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 3:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les a correction, looking at it again (after being emailed off list by Jim; thanks Jim) I forgot to add in the weight of the cylinder to the calculation should be the displacement = 6869 + the hull weight of 2380.7 = 9149.7 which is more in line with Sean & Jim. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are 1056.3 ?kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure? > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter? length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder?1.2m x 4 meters long ?indicated that it need be3/4" wall for 314psi?at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder? okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared??= 175.9ft squared?.? Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared)? therefore ? 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared =??8858 lbs (all soft conv)? = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, ?not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming?I am right the?original question I was wanting, was an indication of how? thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight?I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if?weight feasability works then?I?can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate ?physical ?weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not ?confused everyone Cheers Les ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > >Uh...no. > > >Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > > >This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads >>V = 4.1888?x?r?x?r?x?length? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >> >>Hi Les, >>The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is .? Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that).? To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy:? 1.333333.? So it now reads V=1.3333 ??r3.? Since ??= 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888.? Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 xr3or V = 4.1888 xr xr xr. ?You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3.? The 4.1888 is a constant. >>In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters.? Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes.? If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier.? You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. >>To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. ?A = ??r2 . ?For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder.? >>? >>Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end:? V = 4.1888 x.63 and you get a volume of? .905 m3. >>Add the three figures together: >>Sphere???????? 4.189 >>Cylinder?????? 4.524 >>Head??????????? 0.905 >>??????????????????? 9.618 m3 Total volume >>As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s.? Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water.? Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure.? Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. >>Don?t worry about dumb questions.? I?ve had a few.? If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all.? I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail.? That can be done later. >>Best regards, >>Jim T. >>? >>In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >>>Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant.? Back of envelope calcs:? a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg.? Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark.? Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? >>> >>>Sean >>> >>> >>>On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>> >>>Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >>>>Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >>>>Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners?but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >>>>In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of?steel ?and??approx size of??ring stiffener?size and quantity,?to roughly calculate the weight of what?I wish to build, to see if what?I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >>>>Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >>>>A Sphere 2 meters diameter >>>>A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >>>>?( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >>>>The desired depth is 300m,?( 984ft ) (?452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) (?379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >>>>Sorry to be? pain but can any-one help me >>>>Thank you >>>>Les >>>>? >>>>P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely?dumb ....just as an indication, with something?like the above how would?I calculate the? >>>>??????? volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance ? >>>>? >>>> >>>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 04:43:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 04:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see that. And the hurricane bathtub thing, too. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 4:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Vance, .>>don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand. No that's bath tubs. It's how this "American" program I'm using states it. It has readings for weight in air & weight in water. If you weigh 200lb & jump in the water & you are neutrally buoyant then it would say you way nothing in water & your air weight was 200lb. It is helpful to see at an instant what weight you would need to add to achieve neutral buoyancy. Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Okay Alan, I give up. The weight of the hull in water? What does that mean? Displacement is calculated at the outer skin diameter of the pressure hull which, along with the displacement of externally added bits and pieces, give you a total payload number in pounds or kilos (depending on your preference). So if we're talking about a 12,000 pound displacement in seawater for a finished sub, for instance, then you have a crane weight in air of the same amount less the variable payload (crew, vbt fluids, etc., call that 1,000 pounds for convenience). If your pressure hull weighs 5500 pounds, for instance, then during the design phase you have essentially the other 5500 pounds of that 11,000 (12,000 minus the adjustable payload reserve of 1,000 pounds) to play with in permanent gear and so on (motors, decking, electrical distribution, batteries, drop weights, ballast tanks, guard rails, and so on). The 11,000 pound total is your deadweight, or crane weight. Add crew and ham sandwiches and pee bottles, plus some variable ballast water and, all things being equal, you vent the mains and reach (or at least strive for) neutral buoyancy. I have this feeling that we are all talking about the same thing, only backwards. After all, don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand, or is that hurricanes? I get those two mixed up. In any case, was that what you just said, only different? I'm guessing the weight in water means the weight OF water displaced by the hull. Yes, no? Or am I missing something? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 3:11 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les a correction, looking at it again (after being emailed off list by Jim; thanks Jim) I forgot to add in the weight of the cylinder to the calculation should be the displacement = 6869 + the hull weight of 2380.7 = 9149.7 which is more in line with Sean & Jim. Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Les, in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are 1056.3 kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Hi Les (or Gidday) The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure > 1.87. At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. Cheers Alan From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks I hope I have not confused everyone Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations Uh...no. Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hi Les, The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. Add the three figures together: Sphere 4.189 Cylinder 4.524 Head 0.905 9.618 m3 Total volume As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? Sean On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; A Sphere 2 meters diameter A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me Thank you Les P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 10:04:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:04:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just wanted to add that the form is similar for elliptical shells, only you must take into consideration that, for example, a 2:1 semi-elliptical head only has true 2:1 shape on one side of the shell (typically the inside), since you are adding constant thickness to that shape in all directions, as opposed to a concentric ellipsoid. Thus, for major inner radius r, the volume of such a head would be: V = {4/3 ? ? ? [(r+t)(r+t)((r/2)+t)-(r)(r)(r/2)]}/2 Sean On April 16, 2014 11:28:11 PM MDT, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >Calculating volume using surface area multiplied by thickness is not >accurate unless you use calculus and integrate between the radius >limits. Fortunately, this is how we derive the rule-of-thumb formulas >for volume, which are simpler and easier to use. For a spherical >shell, > >V = (4/3) ? ? ? (ro^3 - ri^3) > >For a cylindrical shell, > >V = ? ? (ro^2 - ri^2) ? L > >Once you have your material volume, multiply by its density to get the >mass. > >Sean From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 10:41:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:41:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vance, Counterclockwise and typhoon. Hmm, "the Spanish fleet was sunk by a typhoon"....just doesn't sound quite right does it? Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:43 AM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > I see that. And the hurricane bathtub thing, too. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 4:33 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Vance, > .>>don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand. > No that's bath tubs. > It's how this "American" program I'm using states it. It has readings for weight in air & weight in water. > If you weigh 200lb & jump in the water & you are neutrally buoyant then it would say you way nothing > in water & your air weight was 200lb. It is helpful to see at an instant what weight you would need to > add to achieve neutral buoyancy. > Alan > > > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 8:01 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Okay Alan, I give up. The weight of the hull in water? What does that mean? Displacement is calculated at the outer skin diameter of the pressure hull which, along with the displacement of externally added bits and pieces, give you a total payload number in pounds or kilos (depending on your preference). > > So if we're talking about a 12,000 pound displacement in seawater for a finished sub, for instance, then you have a crane weight in air of the same amount less the variable payload (crew, vbt fluids, etc., call that 1,000 pounds for convenience). > > If your pressure hull weighs 5500 pounds, for instance, then during the design phase you have essentially the other 5500 pounds of that 11,000 (12,000 minus the adjustable payload reserve of 1,000 pounds) to play with in permanent gear and so on (motors, decking, electrical distribution, batteries, drop weights, ballast tanks, guard rails, and so on). The 11,000 pound total is your deadweight, or crane weight. Add crew and ham sandwiches and pee bottles, plus some variable ballast water and, all things being equal, you vent the mains and reach (or at least strive for) neutral buoyancy. > > I have this feeling that we are all talking about the same thing, only backwards. After all, don't toilets flush counter clockwise in New Zealand, or is that hurricanes? I get those two mixed up. In any case, was that what you just said, only different? I'm guessing the weight in water means the weight OF water displaced by the hull. Yes, no? Or am I missing something? > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 3:11 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Les a correction, > looking at it again (after being emailed off list by Jim; thanks Jim) > I forgot to add in the weight of the cylinder to the calculation > should be the displacement = 6869 + the hull weight of 2380.7 > = 9149.7 which is more in line with Sean & Jim. > Alan > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:26 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Les, > in my calculations the dry weight of the sphere & the cylinder are > 1056.3 kg + 1,324.4 kg = 2,380.7 kg. > The weight of the sphere & cylinder in water is -3378.9 liters + -3490.1 kg. > Which means that for these two items alone you are going to have to make your sub weigh > 3378.9 kg + 3490.1 kg = 6869 kg to get it neutrally buoyant. > Alan > > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Hi Les (or Gidday) > The 2 meter inside diameter sphere made from 516 / 70 steel needs a crush depth of > 561 meters to fit G.Ls perameters of the colapse dive pressure / nominal diving pressure > > 1.87. > At 10.8mm thick you get a crush depth of 559.75 M. > It will weigh 1056.3 kg & be -3378.9 kg water weight salt. (need a lot of lead) > A tube 1.2M ID & 4 meters long of same material at 11.3mm thick crushes at 561 meters, > weighs 1,324.4 kg with a -3490.1 kg water weight. > In my program I am showing no advantage in having stiffeners at this thickness & diameter. > Someone might want to confirm this but I ran this tube as a 500mm, a 1 meter & 2 meter > length & got the same crush depth for the diameter & thickness. > Cheers Alan > > > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Thanks Guys for your response ...and my head goes around and around......good mental exercise??? let us start again > Psubs calcs for unstiffened cylinder 1.2m x 4 meters long indicated that it need be 3/4" wall for 314psi at 706fsw (good I have an indicator) > I Needed to know the actual physical lifting weight of the two items, the 2m sphere and the 1.2d x 4m cylinder okay so I calculated the surface area of the cylinder > easy enough A = 2 (pi) r h + 2(pi) r squared = 175.9ft squared . Did the same for a sphere 4(pi)r squared = 113.097 ft squared > Total area of sphere and cylinder = 289 ft squared > Multiplied by 30.65 lbs (for 3/4 steel plate per ft.squared) therefore 289ft squared x 30.65 lbs /foot squared = 8858 lbs (all soft conv) = 3.95 ton approx. > This figure aligns with sean? I think, not sure about Jim T 's 21,688 Lb unless he forgot already had it in lbs not kgs., as we all have done I am sure > Anyway presuming I am right the original question I was wanting, was an indication of how thinner steel plate I could use with what size stiffeners at what spaces to have the same depth capabilities and how much physical weight I might loose. This is all for an indication ...if weight feasability works then I can bother about details such as joining taper for sphere/cylinder etc.other equip weight etc. > The submersing tank question was again what volume of water required for this size craft so I again could calculate physical weight of additional fabricated external tanks > I hope I have not confused everyone > Cheers > Les > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations > > Uh...no. > > Do a sphere calc and add it to a cylinder calc. > > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:16 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > >> This may be a dumb question, but is finding the volume of a cylinder with two hemispherical heads >> V = 4.1888 x r x r x length? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >> Hi Les, >> The basic formula for the volume of a sphere is . Don't accidentally plug in the diameter instead of the radius (I've done that). To simplify the formula, convert the 4/3 to a decimal carried to as many places as you wish for accuracy: 1.333333. So it now reads V=1.3333 ? r3. Since ? = 3.14159 (rounded), you can go ahead and multiply it by your 1.333333 to get 4.1888. Your simplified formula now reads V = 4.1888 x r3 or V = 4.1888 x r x r x r. You can use that simplified formula for calculating the volume of any sphere by plugging in the r3. The 4.1888 is a constant. >> In your case since the diameter of the sphere is 2 meters, your radius is 1 meter and the volume of your sphere is 4.1888 cubic meters. Having the simplified formula saves a lot number crunching when you are calculating different sizes. If you can set up a spreadsheet containing that formula it will be even easier. You can also use that formula to calculate the volume of a hemispherical tank head on a cylinder by dividing it by 2. >> To calculate the volume of a cylinder, first calculate the area of a circle of that radius and multiply it by the length. A = ? r2 . For your radius of 0.6 meters, A = 1.13 m2 or 4.524 m3 for a 4 meter long cylinder. >> >> Add a hemispherical tank head on the other end: V = 4.1888 x .63 and you get a volume of .905 m3. >> Add the three figures together: >> Sphere 4.189 >> Cylinder 4.524 >> Head 0.905 >> 9.618 m3 Total volume >> As you can see, these figures pretty well match up with Sean?s. Your sub would have to weigh at least 9858 kg (21,688 lb) in air in order to submerge in sea water. Adding external ballast tanks will not reduce that figure. Adding internal ballast tanks will reduce it by the weight of the water in those internal tanks. >> Don?t worry about dumb questions. I?ve had a few. If anything I?ve written above is inaccurate, someone will correct it for the benefit of all. I wanted to keep it simple instead of adding too much detail. That can be done later. >> Best regards, >> Jim T. >> >> In a message dated 4/16/2014 12:58:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> Les, the total mass of the trimmed-out craft will be exactly the displacement volume of your proposed craft multiplied by the density of seawater, if you expect to be neutrally buoyant. Back of envelope calcs: a 2m sphere is 4.189 m^3, a cylinder 1.2m OD x 4m is 4.524 m^3, for a total of 8.713 m^3. Multiplying by 1025 kg/m^3 (seawater density) gives 8930.825 kg. Subtract some for the common volume, add some for superstructure, conning tower etc., but that's the ballpark. Or are your worried about the dry weight of the steel used in construction? >> >> Sean >> >> >> On 2014-04-15 23:25, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: >>> Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , >>> Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. >>> Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and maybe others on how to use it correctly? >>> In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project >>> Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; >>> A Sphere 2 meters diameter >>> A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long >>> ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) >>> The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. >>> Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me >>> Thank you >>> Les >>> >>> P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the above how would I calculate the >>> volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum submergance >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 13:27:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:27:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: <20140414120936.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.366eb019f4.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Something to remember with the Excel Spreadsheet ABS Calculator, you need to "enable macros" for it to work correctly. When you open the document you should have the option to "Enable Macros" somewhere within the MS Excel tool bar (sometimes a pop-up box). If you don't enable macros the calculator won't work correctly. It really is beneficial to play with it and learn how to manipulate the figures. If at first you don't succeed, just keep trying and ask for specific help, i.e. I put the number 16 in box D32 and nothing happened. Jon On 4/16/2014 1:25 AM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > Hello everybody ,anybody, Les here , > Attatched myself to this email for convenience (similar subject) been > away from psubs for quite some time wanting to start again. > Now it might sound dumb, but I tried to follow the calc sheet for > material and depth etc with ring stiffeners but ufortunately had a few > problems, perhaps a sample calc attached to it would assist me and > maybe others on how to use it correctly? > In between time I do need to get a rough indication of the thickness > of steel and approx size of ring stiffener size and quantity, to > roughly calculate the weight of what I wish to build, to see if what I > want to do is feasible or not...WEIGHT IS CRITICAL for my project > Can anyone help me please my reqirements are; > A Sphere 2 meters diameter > A Cylinder attached to that 1.2m diameter x 4meters long > ( I understand there will be a flaring attatchment to the sphere, > however at this point for the exercise, just to calc the min weight > that would be possible on these two items would be an indicator for me > andd give me a mental appreciation of my limitations ) > The desired depth is 300m, ( 984ft ) ( 452 psi ) or I could settle for > 250 meters( 820ft ) ( 379 psi ) both maximum dive depth not crush depth. > Sorry to be pain but can any-one help me > Thank you > Les > P.S. In for a penny in for a pound, guess I will make myself look > completely dumb ....just as an indication, with something like the > above how would I calculate the > volume hence the size required for soft tanks for maximum > submergance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 20:43:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 20:43:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Phil on CNN Message-ID: If anyone is watching Anderson Cooper right now, Phil Nuytten is being interviewed (in a submersible) pertaining to Flight 370. What an inspiration you are Phil. ~ Douglas S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 21:25:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 21:25:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Phil on CNN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wish I would have know. There should be an app that notifies us of all "sub" related items in news events, TV/Radio listings, Netflix,YouTube etc. Interested to know how others handle staying on top of sub news? Steve On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > If anyone is watching Anderson Cooper right now, Phil Nuytten is being > interviewed (in a submersible) pertaining to Flight 370. What an > inspiration you are Phil. ~ Douglas S. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 21:55:24 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Personal Submersibles General Discussion) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 18:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus Message-ID: To All, I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert". My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link. Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. Anyone else get that? This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the list via me. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 22:27:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 19:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test - do not reply Message-ID: <1397788034.1112.YahooMailBasic@web140902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> yahoo spam test - from jon Wallace - do not reply From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 22:43:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 19:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] YAHOO mail accounts Message-ID: <1397789023.92732.YahooMailBasic@web140901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've updated the mailing list software and taken advantage of a new option that helps get past the problems that YAHOO accounts are experiencing without hiding the senders identification. This should work in most cases but probably not all, in other words some messages to the list may be missing the senders ID in the "From:" header of the email. So it will be important to continue signing our names at the bottom of the message. The bigger problem for PSUBS users is that you won't receive the senders email address automatically or be able to reply to them privately unless you know already know it or they include it in a signature block at the bottom of their message. This issue is caused by strict anti-spam policies at YAHOO which in fact break adopted email rules. YAHOO account owners are likely to see similar problems on other mailing lists that they participate in. The general feeling from the internet community, as best as I can determine, is essentially "screw yahoo, get an account on some other free service". We'll need to see how this new mechanism works for us and if the group at large feels it presents enough of a problem we'll go back to the original configuration and ask YAHOO users to switch to some other service. About 20% of our mailing list is comprised of YAHOO email addresses. Jon jonw at psubs.org From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 17 23:32:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus Message-ID: <3eaa1.24757289.4081f6e6@aol.com> I didn't get that one, but I got another one from Hank's address with "Contri buted" in the subject line. I have my own address in my address book so if I receive an email from myself, I immediately know it's been invaded. If that happens I change my password. The last occurrence was about two years ago on a different screen name. Jim _jimtoddpsub at aol.com_ (mailto:jimtoddpsub at aol.com) In a message dated 4/17/2014 8:55:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: To All, I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert". My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link. Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. Anyone else get that? This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the list via me. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 06:03:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 03:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus In-Reply-To: <3eaa1.24757289.4081f6e6@aol.com> References: <3eaa1.24757289.4081f6e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1397815413.35655.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jim. Yes I have my address in the address book also. Alan ________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus I didn't get that one, but?I got another one from Hank's address with "Contri buted" in the subject line.? ? I have my own address in my address book so if I receive an email from myself, I immediately know it's been invaded.? If that happens I change my password.? The last occurrence was about two years ago on a different screen name. ? Jim??? ?jimtoddpsub at aol.com ? In a message dated 4/17/2014 8:55:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: To All, >I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert". >My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link. >Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. >Anyone else get that? >This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the list >via me. >Alan > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 06:58:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:58:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus In-Reply-To: <1397815413.35655.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <3eaa1.24757289.4081f6e6@aol.com> <1397815413.35655.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I received an official "looking" phishing message in my hotmail account warning me to "update" or be suspended. Pretty good scam up until the point and I quote,.."this account user is been advice to update" I figure perhaps English lessons are in order. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2014, at 6:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Jim. > Yes I have my address in the address book also. > Alan > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 3:32 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus > > I didn't get that one, but I got another one from Hank's address with "Contri buted" in the subject line. > > I have my own address in my address book so if I receive an email from myself, I immediately know it's been invaded. If that happens I change my password. The last occurrence was about two years ago on a different screen name. > > Jim > jimtoddpsub at aol.com > > In a message dated 4/17/2014 8:55:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > To All, > I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert". > My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link. > Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. > Anyone else get that? > This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the list > via me. > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 07:52:13 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 07:52:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did not get. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > To All, > I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert". > My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link. > Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. > Anyone else get that? > This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to > people on the list > via me. > Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 10:39:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 07:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1397831990.63741.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> All go to CNN dr Nuytten os on in a min -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/18/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 18, 2014, 7:52 AM Did not get. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: To All,I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert".My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link.Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. Anyone else get that?This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the listvia me.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 11:39:51 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:39:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus Message-ID: Does anyone have a link to this on CNN or youtube? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote:All go to CNN dr Nuytten os on in a min -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/18/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Virus To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, April 18, 2014, 7:52 AM Did not get. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: To All,I had an off list email from Hank entitled "Expert".My computer brought up a warning when I clicked on the link.Hank didn't send it. So don't try opening it. Anyone else get that?This isn't new, My email provider was hacked a while back & sent stuff to people on the listvia me.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 18 11:55:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 09:55:09 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K3000 spherical shell calculations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53514ADD.9060406@telus.net> Les, the crane weight of the completed sub will necessarily be the full dead weight of the vessel in service, which is displacement volume multiplied by the density of seawater. Of course, you can lessen this by ballasting once the vessel is launched / slipped to the water (provided it has sufficient stability in that condition), in which case the crane weight will be the weight of the hull material, superstructure, permanently installed systems etc. - everything except crew, consumables, mobile equipment and free ballast, but you will need to figure that on the basis of your specific design. To calculate just the material weight of your hull components, you can use the volume formulas I included in another post, multiplied by the density of the steel or your selected material. Stiffener webs and flanges are just cylindrical shells. Sean On 2014-04-16 23:41, Personal Submersibles General Discussion wrote: > Hi again Jim , please have patience with me, either I am completely > not thinking straight or we are talking apples and oranges ? > I am talking about dry air surface land weight , you make a > cylinder out of 3/4" steel plate 1.2m diam 4m long with same material > end caps > What weight are you going to have to lift it with a crane? > cheers > Les -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 20 07:36:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 07:36:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Summersville dive plan Message-ID: Hi all, We tentatively have three subs planning to dive May 19th and 20th at Summersville. Mark Ragan and Scott and Katy Waters are planning to bring their K350s, and I'll be there with Snoopy. We have Greg Cottrell and Dan Lance as crew, and two support divers who are not PSUBS members. I have to write to the Corp of Engineers soon about the plans, and that includes the boats and people present. Would anyone else like to join in? If so please let me know. Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 20 09:00:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Smyth, Alec via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 13:00:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Summersville dive plan Message-ID: Hi all, We tentatively have three subs planning to dive May 19th and 20th at Summersville. Mark Ragan and Scott and Katy Waters are planning to bring their K350s, and I'll be there with Snoopy. We have Greg Cottrell and Dan Lance as crew, and two support divers who are not PSUBS members. I have to write to the Corp of Engineers soon about the plans, and that includes the boats and people present. Would anyone else like to join in? If so please let me know. Thanks, Alec The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 20 21:17:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Mark via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:17:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Summersville dive plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, My son and I would love to attend as spectators. David is a senior Mechanical Engineering student at North Carolina State University and as a senior project we too are building a two man submarine. With your permission we would love to meet with you and see first hand successful submarine implementations. Please let me know if we are welcome to attend. Regards, Mark... Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:00 AM, "Smyth, Alec via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Hi all, > > We tentatively have three subs planning to dive May 19th and 20th at Summersville. Mark Ragan and Scott and Katy Waters are planning to bring their K350s, and I'll be there with Snoopy. We have Greg Cottrell and Dan Lance as crew, and two support divers who are not PSUBS members. > > I have to write to the Corp of Engineers soon about the plans, and that includes the boats and people present. Would anyone else like to join in? If so please let me know. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 20 21:17:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Mark via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:17:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Summersville dive plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, My son and I would love to attend as spectators. David is a senior Mechanical Engineering student at North Carolina State University and as a senior project we too are building a two man submarine. With your permission we would love to meet with you and see first hand successful submarine implementations. Please let me know if we are welcome to attend. Regards, Mark... Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:00 AM, "Smyth, Alec via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Hi all, > > We tentatively have three subs planning to dive May 19th and 20th at Summersville. Mark Ragan and Scott and Katy Waters are planning to bring their K350s, and I'll be there with Snoopy. We have Greg Cottrell and Dan Lance as crew, and two support divers who are not PSUBS members. > > I have to write to the Corp of Engineers soon about the plans, and that includes the boats and people present. Would anyone else like to join in? If so please let me know. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 20 22:29:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:29:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Summersville dive plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mark, You are of course very welcome to attend. The only thing is the list isn't showing me your email address. Could you send me the names and contact info (cell phone?) off list please? My email is alecsmyth at gmail.com. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Mark via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > My son and I would love to attend as spectators. David is a senior > Mechanical Engineering student at North Carolina State University and as a > senior project we too are building a two man submarine. With your > permission we would love to meet with you and see first hand successful > submarine implementations. Please let me know if we are welcome to attend. > > Regards, > > Mark... > > Sent from iPhone. > > On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:00 AM, "Smyth, Alec via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > We tentatively have three subs planning to dive May 19th and 20th at > Summersville. Mark Ragan and Scott and Katy Waters are planning to bring > their K350s, and I'll be there with Snoopy. We have Greg Cottrell and Dan > Lance as crew, and two support divers who are not PSUBS members. > > > > I have to write to the Corp of Engineers soon about the plans, and that > includes the boats and people present. Would anyone else like to join in? > If so please let me know. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Alec > > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It > contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named > addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or > disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us > immediately and then destroy it > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 07:46:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 04:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Message-ID: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml

I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 08:44:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 08:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 09:51:13 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:51:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:09:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance,

Unfortunately the gen-sets are additional, not a cheap hobby by any means.

For the two smallest motors, they recommend Honda gas portable units @ 1 & 2 kilo watts. These are relatively cheap but unsuitable and dangerous for inside a PSUB. However, at 50 lbs or so, I'm considering the possibility of placing one in the well ventilated space in the sail aft of the CT for surface transit only, then handing it to the support boat on site. (Maybe!) Being self contained and simply feeding the BUS bar via a dedicated through hull, this eliminates exhaust, induction, ventilation, and cooling through hulls and systems. CO buildup and intrusion underway would not be an issue with the space I have in mind. Still, it's an inconvenient arrangement.

Better still is a 3kw dedicated marine gen-set inside. What bothers me here besides cost and complexity is the introduction of an accelerant inside. But, this would be quite the little U-Boat. Lots to look at here.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:18:01 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> A beer can sized nuclear reactor, steam generators the size of coffee cans, a turbine? Oh, wait. That does away with Elco. Hmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 10:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Vance, Unfortunately the gen-sets are additional, not a cheap hobby by any means. For the two smallest motors, they recommend Honda gas portable units @ 1 & 2 kilo watts. These are relatively cheap but unsuitable and dangerous for inside a PSUB. However, at 50 lbs or so, I'm considering the possibility of placing one in the well ventilated space in the sail aft of the CT for surface transit only, then handing it to the support boat on site. (Maybe!) Being self contained and simply feeding the BUS bar via a dedicated through hull, this eliminates exhaust, induction, ventilation, and cooling through hulls and systems. CO buildup and intrusion underway would not be an issue with the space I have in mind. Still, it's an inconvenient arrangement. Better still is a 3kw dedicated marine gen-set inside. What bothers me here besides cost and complexity is the introduction of an accelerant inside. But, this would be quite the little U-Boat. Lots to look at here. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: via Personal_Submersibles ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 12:44:16 PM Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:25:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:25:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> References: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1DE75463-1009-48B7-9BD4-A9C26C956DC3@yahoo.com> Dilithium crystals Vance!...Dilithium crystals! Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:18 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A beer can sized nuclear reactor, steam generators the size of coffee cans, a turbine? Oh, wait. That does away with Elco. Hmm. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 10:10 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > > Vance, > > Unfortunately the gen-sets are additional, not a cheap hobby by any means. > > For the two smallest motors, they recommend Honda gas portable units @ 1 & 2 kilo watts. These are relatively cheap but unsuitable and dangerous for inside a PSUB. However, at 50 lbs or so, I'm considering the possibility of placing one in the well ventilated space in the sail aft of the CT for surface transit only, then handing it to the support boat on site. (Maybe!) Being self contained and simply feeding the BUS bar via a dedicated through hull, this eliminates exhaust, induction, ventilation, and cooling through hulls and systems. CO buildup and intrusion underway would not be an issue with the space I have in mind. Still, it's an inconvenient arrangement. > > Better still is a 3kw dedicated marine gen-set inside. What bothers me here besides cost and complexity is the introduction of an accelerant inside. But, this would be quite the little U-Boat. Lots to look at here. > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: via Personal_Submersibles ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 12:44:16 PM > > Joe, > > A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > > Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml > > I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:44:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <1DE75463-1009-48B7-9BD4-A9C26C956DC3@yahoo.com> References: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> <1DE75463-1009-48B7-9BD4-A9C26C956DC3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D12C50802AC151-82C-40DF4@webmail-vd009.sysops.aol.com> The problem being that you need dilithium crystals to get far enough into space to mine dilithium crystals. It's a conundrum. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 10:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Dilithium crystals Vance!...Dilithium crystals! Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:18 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A beer can sized nuclear reactor, steam generators the size of coffee cans, a turbine? Oh, wait. That does away with Elco. Hmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 10:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Vance, Unfortunately the gen-sets are additional, not a cheap hobby by any means. For the two smallest motors, they recommend Honda gas portable units @ 1 & 2 kilo watts. These are relatively cheap but unsuitable and dangerous for inside a PSUB. However, at 50 lbs or so, I'm considering the possibility of placing one in the well ventilated space in the sail aft of the CT for surface transit only, then handing it to the support boat on site. (Maybe!) Being self contained and simply feeding the BUS bar via a dedicated through hull, this eliminates exhaust, induction, ventilation, and cooling through hulls and systems. CO buildup and intrusion underway would not be an issue with the space I have in mind. Still, it's an inconvenient arrangement. Better still is a 3kw dedicated marine gen-set inside. What bothers me here besides cost and complexity is the introduction of an accelerant inside. But, this would be quite the little U-Boat. Lots to look at here. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: via Personal_Submersibles ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 12:44:16 PM Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:49:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:49:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <8D12C50802AC151-82C-40DF4@webmail-vd009.sysops.aol.com> References: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> <1DE75463-1009-48B7-9BD4-A9C26C956DC3@yahoo.com> <8D12C50802AC151-82C-40DF4@webmail-vd009.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <53568187.5010007@ohiohills.com> On 4/22/2014 10:44 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The problem being that you need dilithium crystals to get far enough > into space to mine dilithium crystals. It's a conundrum. The Chinese will provide them. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:50:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:50:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: <20140422075027.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.38208d4d6d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 10:56:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <53568187.5010007@ohiohills.com> References: <1398175787.25824.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C4CCDB8C6A1-2624-42B07@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> <1DE75463-1009-48B7-9BD4-A9C26C956DC3@yahoo.com> <8D12C50802AC151-82C-40DF4@webmail-vd009.sysops.aol.com> <53568187.5010007@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <8D12C5238DB0232-24BC-41586@webmail-m286.sysops.aol.com> And flood the market at cut rate prices. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 10:50 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors On 4/22/2014 10:44 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The problem being that you need dilithium crystals to get far enough into space to mine dilithium crystals. It's a conundrum. The Chinese will provide them. M This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 11:49:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:49:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question Message-ID: I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to going back to the AC mode. It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? Thanks, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 11:55:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 12:18:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:18:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: <20140422091832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.97c368a81d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 12:22:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:22:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <20140422091832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.97c368a81d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140422091832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.97c368a81d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Scott, you're quite welcome. I must have been a procurement officer in a past life. Jim T. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 22, 2014, at 11:18 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > You are amazing!!! I am the proud new owner of 10 Steinke hoods. I figure at the next conference if anyone would like one or two for their sub I will have them. > > Thanks again, > Scott Waters > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 8:55 am > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: > http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html > This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. > -Jim > > In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 12:37:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:37:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <20140422091832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.97c368a81d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140422091832.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.97c368a81d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Scott, did you contact Bud via email or by phone? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jim, > You are amazing!!! I am the proud new owner of 10 Steinke hoods. I figure > at the next conference if anyone would like one or two for their sub I will > have them. > > Thanks again, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 8:55 am > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: > http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html > This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. > -Jim > > In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I > saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety > addition to my sub. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 13:30:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 22 Apr 2014 17:30 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> References: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> Message-ID: <1WceWc-1Sk8e00@fwd00.t-online.de> Hi Scott - Check them. If the neckshirt is to hard to get it over: Bring it to a divesuit shop and let them make and glue new skirt from neopren. If they have a capsule with water paint maker - remove this. The capsule tend to leak or break if old and can be nicly couloring your interior. One unit can be marked on the outside bag as training unit. I did it with my 10 units that way. Video with training unit in action at 00:20 + 03.00 + 4:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvFelmuKA vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 13:37:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:37:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: David, I contacted him by phone Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneDavid Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Hi Scott, did you contact Bud via email or by phone? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim, You are amazing!!! I am the proud new owner of 10 Steinke hoods. I figure at the next conference if anyone would like one or two for their sub I will have them. ? Thanks again, Scott Waters? ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 8:55 am To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim ? In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 13:49:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:49:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm, I was unaware of the "ball" technique and did not do that at all. Which is not to say it isn't a good idea, I just don't know. I do recall the tungsten forming a little ball on its tip, but I was not switching to DC+, and in fact the reason I remember it was because I think I spent a lot of effort trying to grind off the little ball before just giving up because it would happen all the time! The current I think will just depend on the mass of the pieces you are welding and the thickness of wire. Start small and dial up as necessary, or just set it high and use the pedal to control it. The one thing I do remember was the main challenge I ran into. Aluminum is a very good thermal conductor, but absorbs very little heat. Therefore, the problem is when you are welding a little thing to a large thing. Lets say you are putting in X amount of heat (as represented by the current setting). Both pieces start absorbing heat, but the little piece can melt before the big one has even puddled on the surface. In that case, try adding a heat sink of some sort to the little piece. For instance, bolt it to a steel plate. What you need to do is let the little piece conduct away more heat so the big piece can puddle. If you are welding similar-sized pieces, it is not very hard, but welding little aluminum tabs onto a big chunk of aluminum is tricky. Hope that helps, I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to aluminum welding. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 > together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. > > I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc > on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to > going back to the AC mode. > > It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum > piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? > > Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? > > Thanks, > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 13:50:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:50:00 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: Thank you for the info Carsten. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone""Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles" wrote:Hi Scott - Check them. If the neckshirt is to hard to get it over: Bring it to a divesuit shop and let them make and glue new skirt from neopren.?? If they have a capsule with water paint maker - remove this. The capsule tend to leak or break if old and can be nicly couloring your interior. One unit can be marked on the outside bag as training unit. I did it with my 10 units that way. Video with training unit in action at 00:20 + 03.00 + 4:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvFelmuKA vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim ? In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 14:11:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:11:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the video series (2 parts) I was referring to that mentions the "ball" technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZWJt3fFJ6Hk Anyway I was able to get my tack weld done after several times. It was also older, pitted Aluminum (I did wire brush it clean). Steve On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hmmm, I was unaware of the "ball" technique and did not do that at all. > Which is not to say it isn't a good idea, I just don't know. I do recall > the tungsten forming a little ball on its tip, but I was not switching to > DC+, and in fact the reason I remember it was because I think I spent a lot > of effort trying to grind off the little ball before just giving up because > it would happen all the time! > > The current I think will just depend on the mass of the pieces you are > welding and the thickness of wire. Start small and dial up as necessary, or > just set it high and use the pedal to control it. > > The one thing I do remember was the main challenge I ran into. Aluminum is > a very good thermal conductor, but absorbs very little heat. Therefore, the > problem is when you are welding a little thing to a large thing. Lets say > you are putting in X amount of heat (as represented by the current > setting). Both pieces start absorbing heat, but the little piece can melt > before the big one has even puddled on the surface. In that case, try > adding a heat sink of some sort to the little piece. For instance, bolt it > to a steel plate. What you need to do is let the little piece conduct away > more heat so the big piece can puddle. If you are welding similar-sized > pieces, it is not very hard, but welding little aluminum tabs onto a big > chunk of aluminum is tricky. > > Hope that helps, I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to aluminum > welding. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 >> together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. >> >> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc >> on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to >> going back to the AC mode. >> >> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >> >> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 14:56:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: <1523c.2453b256.40881552@aol.com> Carsten, I've wondered how long a Steinke hood is good in storage. Do any of the components deteriorate over time and require replacement? Thanks, Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 12:50:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thank you for the info Carsten. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone ""Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi Scott - Check them. If the neckshirt is to hard to get it over: Bring it to a divesuit shop and let them make and glue new skirt from neopren. If they have a capsule with water paint maker - remove this. The capsule tend to leak or break if old and can be nicly couloring your interior. One unit can be marked on the outside bag as training unit. I did it with my 10 units that way. Video with training unit in action at 00:20 + 03.00 + 4:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvFelmuKA vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 15:45:13 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:45:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting Compound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, did you end up using this product? Were you happy with it? Steve On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:11 AM, James Frankland < jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've done quite a bit of research into potting compounds and i think > this is one im going to use for my side thruster penetrators. > > I'm 99% sure this will be fine, but as im a worrier, i thought id ask > just in case someone spots some glaring error ive not noticed. > > http://www.resintech.co.uk/downloads/tds/RT310.pdf > > many thanks all, > Regards > James > > > > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal > CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database > because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages > from our organization. > > If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the > link below or send a blank email message to: > removeme-personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an > automated process and should be complete within five minutes of > our server receiving your request. > > PSUBS.ORG > PO Box 53 > Weare, NH 03281 > 603-529-1100 > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 15:57:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:57:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sodasorb Message-ID: <20140422125728.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.8fe58bbe49.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 16:23:07 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:23:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> Message-ID: <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> Ken, I have had a lot of expense with LiFePO4's. Battery management system BMS is critical and they do not like sitting unused. OK on a daily use vehicle but as they are made in China the individual cell quality is dubious and they need to be matched. It has cost me a lot and I am not in the water. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 1:51 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9706 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 16:31:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Christopher Graca via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:31:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Ken, do the LiFePO4's have the same problems if they are stored at a lower voltage, and then just recharged while re-balancing the individual cell voltages prior to use? -Chris On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ken, I have had a lot of expense with LiFePO4?s. Battery management > system BMS is critical and they do not like sitting unused. OK on a daily > use vehicle but as they are made in China the individual cell quality is > dubious and they need to be matched. It has cost me a lot and I am not in > the water. Chs Hugh > > > > > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Ken Martindale > via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 April 2014 1:51 a.m. > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > > > > Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. > > > > Ken Martindale > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *On Behalf Of *via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > > > > Joe, > > > > A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub > for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's > 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. > Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? > > > > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors > > Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining > to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching > http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml > > I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these > particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully > engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be > inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an > experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a > comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface > transit standpoint for the Seehund. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 9706 (20140422) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 16:33:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Christopher Graca via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:33:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sorry, was directing the question to Hugh On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Christopher Graca wrote: > Ken, > > do the LiFePO4's have the same problems if they are stored at a lower > voltage, and then just recharged while re-balancing the individual cell > voltages prior to use? > > -Chris > > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Ken, I have had a lot of expense with LiFePO4?s. Battery management >> system BMS is critical and they do not like sitting unused. OK on a daily >> use vehicle but as they are made in China the individual cell quality is >> dubious and they need to be matched. It has cost me a lot and I am not in >> the water. Chs Hugh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Ken Martindale >> via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 April 2014 1:51 a.m. >> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors >> >> >> >> Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. >> >> >> >> Ken Martindale >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> *On Behalf Of *via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors >> >> >> >> Joe, >> >> >> >> A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub >> for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's >> 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. >> Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? >> >> >> >> Vance >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors >> >> Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining >> to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching >> http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml >> >> I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these >> particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully >> engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be >> inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an >> experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a >> comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface >> transit standpoint for the Seehund. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 9706 (20140422) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 16:58:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:58:48 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5356d80d.8462440a.7a44.ffffba5c@mx.google.com> Hi Chris, The problem is the BMS. They draw off current to charge up and balance the other cells. When you buy a battery of the cells such as a 12 volt assembly they have about between 4-8 of these BMS boards in them so they are a mess of wires under the cover. IF they were hooked up to a solar cell charger they might be OK. Also if you unhook the BMS inside then they should last longer but even doing this you get some cell failures. You need to hook them up to a computer with a program you can download and then you can see what is happening at cell level. There are a number of brands and there is a supplier in UK who has a MK 4 BMS version which he sells to the military with a high success rate. It is a study in itself to get into the do?s and don?ts. Leave the fancy stuff alone unless you have deep pockets and are a techo. Thundersky do a simple one that is used by a lot of EV enthusiasts. Here is an excerpt from a blog I have a pack of Thundersky 160ah 40 pieces to give about 128v nominal. The've got about 6300+ miles on them now in pretty harsh swedish environment. Last winter I did some close to 2C runs in -28degC and this winter I have run the car in -27degC. I run it every day. I had one cell go busbar on me, but other then that they work fine. They DO NOT LIKE the cold here, below freezing is not that fun. I had a Endless BMS, but I run BMS free now. No LVC/HVC just pack voltage. I have probably overcharged them before I got the charger to work properly. And I can see big differences in Ri. Probably from overcharge. I did not have the cellog when I started using the pack. Over all really happy. Enough to plan a second pack for another car. I never draw abowe 2C from the pack. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Graca via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 8:32 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Ken, do the LiFePO4's have the same problems if they are stored at a lower voltage, and then just recharged while re-balancing the individual cell voltages prior to use? -Chris On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ken, I have had a lot of expense with LiFePO4?s. Battery management system BMS is critical and they do not like sitting unused. OK on a daily use vehicle but as they are made in China the individual cell quality is dubious and they need to be matched. It has cost me a lot and I am not in the water. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 1:51 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9706 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 17:01:25 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:01:25 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> References: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5356d8ad.49a4420a.78e1.ffffcd77@mx.google.com> Thanks Jim and Carsten. I am trying to get 4 of them. Cheers, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 3:56 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9707 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 17:20:25 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:20:25 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> References: <7196f.236fcae4.4087eb0a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5356dd1f.91ae420a.645a.fffff539@mx.google.com> Hi Scott, did you get an email for Bud as I cant raise him on his old email it bounces back. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 3:56 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9707 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 17:39:39 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:39:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: I just simply called him. He was really nice.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneHugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Hi Scott,? did you get an email for Bud as I cant raise him on his old email? it bounces back.? Hugh ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 3:56 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood ? Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim ? In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9707 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 18:07:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 18:07:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors In-Reply-To: References: <1398167174.31939.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D12C3FB4EAF87C-2494-4178F@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com> <008301cf5e31$ecdf4f60$c69dee20$@rr.com> <5356cfb7.612b440a.46ce.fffff121@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <014601cf5e77$39bcfe00$ad36fa00$@rr.com> The same problems as the Lion cells? You can?t get away without a good BMS. Thanks, Ken From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Graca via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:32 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Ken, do the LiFePO4's have the same problems if they are stored at a lower voltage, and then just recharged while re-balancing the individual cell voltages prior to use? -Chris On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ken, I have had a lot of expense with LiFePO4?s. Battery management system BMS is critical and they do not like sitting unused. OK on a daily use vehicle but as they are made in China the individual cell quality is dubious and they need to be matched. It has cost me a lot and I am not in the water. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 1:51 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Be nice to use the LiFePo4 batteries for the Sub batteries. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:44 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Joe, A good idea. Paul M. reckons the dsl/elec hybrid makes for the best psub for the obvious reasons, and so did Captain K. Autonomy is good. If it's 7-8K for the entire system, I would suggest that it ain't bad, considering. Then maybe add a variation on Hank's shaftless coupling, perhaps? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elco Motors Very interesting and informative data on Elco's marine website pertaining to sizing, rates of discharge, range, and hybrid matching http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-600.shtml I don't think its possible to scratch build the reliability of these particular types of products in the electric boat industry, these are fully engineered systems. At 7-8k, its an expensive motor and would have to be inside with a rotating shaft seal arrangement, but coming from an experimental aircraft perspective the price points on these motors is a comparative bargain. I'm looking at these from a long distance surface transit standpoint for the Seehund. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9706 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9708 (20140422) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 19:28:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:28:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just left in its original mill finish. As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . Hope this helps, Dan Lance On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 > together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. > > I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc > on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to > going back to the AC mode. > > It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum > piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? > > Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? > > Thanks, > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 19:52:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 18:52:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little.? I am showing *80 cubic feet of O2 per person *23 lbs sodasorb per person Is this right? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 20:01:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:01:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure they where off. Lots to learn! Steve On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon shielding > gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a tungsten > melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap aluminum > . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a balled end is > not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But unless you have > an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments you really > don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting depends on > the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are trying to > join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick piece first > , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is very difficult > to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should be nice and > "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never hurt > anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is easy > to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just left > in its original mill finish. > As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would > recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . > Hope this helps, > Dan Lance > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 >> together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. >> >> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc >> on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to >> going back to the AC mode. >> >> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >> >> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 21:51:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 18:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> References: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1398217878.43227.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, G.L. rules has a recomendation for O2 calculations of15 l/h (liters per hour) resting & 40 l/h working. For CO2 production 22 l/h average. However you might want to tailor that to your personal O2 requirements. You are probably best to get the figures for your brand of Sodasorb off their web site as not all absorbants perform the?same. Alan ________________________________ From: swaters via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 11:52 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little.? I am showing *80 cubic feet of O2 per person *23 lbs sodasorb per person Is this right? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 21:55:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:55:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> References: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> Message-ID: <53571D86.4060203@psubs.org> You need to base the amount necessary on estimated respiration calculations. There are two papers on PSUBS that adequately describe how to do this and will benefit your knowledge base. Alec can probably provide real time data in terms of use within SNOOPY which may or may not be scalable to a K350. Jon On 4/22/2014 7:52 PM, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 > hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little. > I am showing > *80 cubic feet of O2 per person > *23 lbs sodasorb per person > > Is this right? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 22:01:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:01:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: I used the calculations and it just seemes like alot more than everyone else carries. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You need to base the amount necessary on estimated respiration calculations.? There are two papers on PSUBS that adequately describe how to do this and will benefit your knowledge base.? Alec can probably provide real time data in terms of use within SNOOPY which may or may not be scalable to a K350. Jon On 4/22/2014 7:52 PM, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little.? I am showing *80 cubic feet of O2 per person *23 lbs sodasorb per person Is this right? Thanks, Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 22:27:39 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:27:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5357251B.5040702@psubs.org> The calcs are pretty straight forward so the question might be are you sure everyone else is actually carrying 72 hours worth per passenger? Alec did some real-world testing a while ago...closed the hatch and tested his scrubber...and published the results. Perhaps he can share them again. That might give some insight as to whether the suggested calculations are too conservative. Jon On 4/22/2014 10:01 PM, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I used the calculations and it just seemes like alot more than > everyone else carries. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 22:32:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:32:20 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: Ok. That would be cool. I am not going off of real world experience, just clacs. I am using intersorb 812 just like Alec. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The calcs are pretty straight forward so the question might be are you sure everyone else is actually carrying 72 hours worth per passenger?? Alec did some real-world testing a while ago...closed the hatch and tested his scrubber...and published the results.? Perhaps he can share them again.? That might give some insight as to whether the suggested calculations are too conservative. Jon On 4/22/2014 10:01 PM, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used the calculations and it just seemes like alot more than everyone else carries. Thanks, Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 22:41:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop Mechanism Message-ID: <1398220917.41356.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> HI all, I was thinking about ways of dropping a manipulator today & came up with the attached drawings. I have seen Phils method of using quick connects, but thought this was simpler. You mount your manipulator on the red plate. To drop it the hydraulic piston retracts untill the plate slides out from under? the guides & the plate & manipulator topple off.? The hydraulic cylinder could either be operated manually or by? power. If manually then the hoses could be cut first. If by power, the hoses would need to be long enough for the length of travel? of the plate. This system would be easy to test prior to a dive. Any merit in it? Can it be done better? Has this been used before? Thanks. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: drop mechanism bottom.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 87850 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: drop mechanism.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 76160 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 22 23:13:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:13:31 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> References: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> Message-ID: <53572FDB.70103@telus.net> According to the ABS rules, per (11/35.3), you need sufficient oxygen for the mission duration PLUS the 72 hour reserve. Per (8/7.1), oxygen: 0.038 kg (0.084 lb) per hour, per person, at 1 atm. x 72 hours emergency duration = 2.736 kg (6.032 lb) per person for 72 hours. 2.736 kg x (1000g/kg) x (mol O2/31.9988g O2) x (22.4 liters / mol O2) = 1915 liters (@ STP, ideal gas assumptions) = 68 cubic feet oxygen per person for emergency reserve, additional oxygen appropriate to mission duration. Sean On 2014-04-22 17:52, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 > hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little. > I am showing > *80 cubic feet of O2 per person > *23 lbs sodasorb per person > > Is this right? > Thanks, > Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 02:21:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:21:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting Compound Message-ID: <20140422232112.44626DAD@m0005309.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 05:00:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:00:19 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting Compound In-Reply-To: <20140422232112.44626DAD@m0005309.ppops.net> References: <20140422232112.44626DAD@m0005309.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve\Brian, Yes, i did end up using the RT310 epoxy. I had a real pain initially. I didnt mix it properly and so i wasnt 100% sure it cured inside the thruster penetrators. So i heated it and broke it all out. Then i conducted a load of experiments with different types of epoxy and ended up using the RT310 anyway. there was another called Eli Chems low viscosity epoxy that was also very good. I almost used that. The only other thing i can say is that Resin Tech were hopeless. They were not really interested in sending such a small amount. Well, they were, it just took me ages of ringing and badgering to get the product. Eli chem were a lot better and the product was in convenient ready to mix sachets. The section on the experiments i did starts here on my site. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page24592.htm Just keep pressing the "Next" button until you get to the results. There are some other things about lights and stuff in between. The brass rods running through the penetrators are 4mm diameter. Kind Regards James F On 23 April 2014 07:21, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, > What is the largest gage wire you are running through an > epoxy fitting? > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting Compound > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:45:13 -0400 > > James, did you end up using this product? Were you happy with it? > > Steve > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:11 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've done quite a bit of research into potting compounds and i think > this is one im going to use for my side thruster penetrators. > > I'm 99% sure this will be fine, but as im a worrier, i thought id ask > just in case someone spots some glaring error ive not noticed. > > http://www.resintech.co.uk/downloads/tds/RT310.pdf > > many thanks all, > Regards > James > > > > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal > CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database > because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages > from our organization. > > If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the > link below or send a blank email message to: > removeme-personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an > automated process and should be complete within five minutes of > our server receiving your request. > > PSUBS.ORG > PO Box 53 > Weare, NH 03281 > 603-529-1100 > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 09:02:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 06:02:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: <20140423060200.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.c55ee1fe67.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 09:48:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 07:48:06 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <20140423060200.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.c55ee1fe67.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140423060200.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.c55ee1fe67.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <13de6cc8-c157-4483-aa16-dac6e2a88f70@email.android.com> I'm sorry - I was short on time last night or I would have addressed the scrubbing as well. The design expected CO2 production rate is set by the rules in a similar manner. You need to look at the data sheet of your chosen scrubber media to find it's scrubbing capacity, efficiency, etc., then size the media volume accordingly (mission duration + 72 hours), and make sure that the flow path, flow rate / dwell time and so forth are sufficient to meet the rated capacity. Also, you might want to separate mission and emergency scrubbers to conserve media. Sean On April 23, 2014 7:02:00 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, > >Seems like your results on O2 are the same that I found. I have (2) 80 >cubic foot O2 tanks on my 2 man submarine. I am pretty sure most >psubbers are not sticking to the mission time plus 72 hour requirement. >I believe my figuring of 23 lbs of intersorb 812 per person is also >close to correct and most psubbers are not carrying that as well. It >seemed like a lot to me at the beginning based on my observations of >other psubs, but I think it is correct. > >Thanks, > >Scott Waters > > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 8:13 pm >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >According to the ABS rules, per (11/35.3), you need sufficient oxygen >for the mission duration PLUS the 72 hour reserve. > >Per (8/7.1), oxygen: 0.038 kg (0.084 lb) per hour, per person, at 1 >atm. > >x 72 hours emergency duration = 2.736 kg (6.032 lb) per person for 72 >hours. > >2.736 kg x (1000g/kg) x (mol O2/31.9988g O2) x (22.4 liters / mol O2) = >1915 liters (@ STP, ideal gas assumptions) > >= 68 cubic feet oxygen per person for emergency reserve, additional >oxygen appropriate to mission duration. > >Sean > > > >On 2014-04-22 17:52, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 >hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little. > >I am showing > >*80 cubic feet of O2 per person > >*23 lbs sodasorb per person > > >Is this right? > >Thanks, > >Scott Waters > >_____________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 10:03:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 07:03:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: <20140423070308.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.662dbc40ae.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 10:32:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:32:16 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a sausage before you get it into the pool. Just my 2p. Kind Regards James F On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band (2% > thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure they > where off. Lots to learn! > > Steve > > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Steve, >> Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon shielding >> gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a tungsten >> melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap aluminum >> . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a balled end is >> not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But unless you have >> an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments you really >> don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting depends on >> the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are trying to >> join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick piece first >> , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is very difficult >> to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should be nice and >> "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never hurt >> anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is easy >> to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just left >> in its original mill finish. >> As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would >> recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . >> Hope this helps, >> Dan Lance >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 >>> together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. >>> >>> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc >>> on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to >>> going back to the AC mode. >>> >>> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >>> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >>> >>> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aluminium.doc Type: application/msword Size: 270848 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 13:43:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 23 Apr 2014 17:43 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <53572FDB.70103@telus.net> References: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> <53572FDB.70103@telus.net> Message-ID: <1Wd1Cm-3nF42y0@fwd16.t-online.de> Hi Sean, in praxis we use 0,25 l/min or (0,25 x 60=) 15 L/h O2 per hour and person. 15 l/h x 72 h = 1080 Liters. Divided by a pressure in the bottle of 200 atm. is a 5 Liter bottle per person for emergency storage only. This is close to the GL figure for resting person. But if you are in a emergency 72 hour situation one person will rest and all other sleep.. So on more than one person sub the figures over 72 hours will be lower. By the way -if I am in Sgt.Peppers the flowmeter is some what by 0,2 L/h.. Emile can give you actual flowmeter figures for a three person sub. vbr Carsten - "If you are not sure - double it.." (unkown submarine engineer) "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: According to the ABS rules, per (11/35.3), you need sufficient oxygen for the mission duration PLUS the 72 hour reserve. Per (8/7.1), oxygen: 0.038 kg (0.084 lb) per hour, per person, at 1 atm. x 72 hours emergency duration = 2.736 kg (6.032 lb) per person for 72 hours. 2.736 kg x (1000g/kg) x (mol O2/31.9988g O2) x (22.4 liters / mol O2) = 1915 liters (@ STP, ideal gas assumptions) = 68 cubic feet oxygen per person for emergency reserve, additional oxygen appropriate to mission duration. Sean On 2014-04-22 17:52, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little. I am showing *80 cubic feet of O2 per person *23 lbs sodasorb per person Is this right? Thanks, Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 13:58:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 23 Apr 2014 17:58 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood In-Reply-To: <1523c.2453b256.40881552@aol.com> References: <1523c.2453b256.40881552@aol.com> Message-ID: <1Wd1R1-0emjke0@fwd07.t-online.de> Difficult to say. On the unit I have some of the tempoary glues to fix for example zippers covers gives way. The neck skirt was extremly hard and the water signal maker tends to leak. They are pretty old. From the 90ies or so. But on a price of 15 USD - means less than 1% of the original price I would suggest the following formular: Unit to use x 2, plus one training unit, puls 1 for destroy test, plus a additional amout for later sale for Psubs friends. For a 3 person sub this means 3 x 2 +1 + 1 + 2 = 10 units = 150 USD. Or in case of real use 50 USD per life. say remainig life after successfull emergency exist is 40 years this means : 50 /40 = 1.25 USD per year of life. But it depents stroong on how old are you and how often you have to emergency exit your sub.. Statistic is nice.. isn't it ? Even if the units have problems: Bring them to a cpompany built rubber boats or duiver suits. Strip them an rebuild them. Will be much cheaper than to purchase new ones. By the way I order one forward. test them, calculate the fixing cost and order than 9 more. If you can choose ask the guy if he can look for the samp outside of the bag and select younger building years... vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Carsten, I've wondered how long a Steinke hood is good in storage. Do any of the components deteriorate over time and require replacement? Thanks, Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 12:50:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thank you for the info Carsten. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone ""Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi Scott - Check them. If the neckshirt is to hard to get it over: Bring it to a divesuit shop and let them make and glue new skirt from neopren. If they have a capsule with water paint maker - remove this. The capsule tend to leak or break if old and can be nicly couloring your interior. One unit can be marked on the outside bag as training unit. I did it with my 10 units that way. Video with training unit in action at 00:20 + 03.00 + 4:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvFelmuKA vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 14:59:11 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <1Wd1Cm-3nF42y0@fwd16.t-online.de> References: <2tj9lxn8f38awyavaxvv7unp.1398206846763@email.android.com> <53572FDB.70103@telus.net> <1Wd1Cm-3nF42y0@fwd16.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1398279551.71963.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Carsten's tank size is based on a fill of 3000psi. My dive shop will only fill O2 to 2000psi.? Find out where you are most likely to get the tank filled & ask what pressure they will fill to. I had to do an O2 providers course before they would fill my tanks. Alan ________________________________ From: "Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support E-Mail Software 6.0 Hi Sean, in praxis we use 0,25 l/min or (0,25 x 60=) 15 L/h O2 per hour and person. 15 l/h x 72? h = 1080 Liters. Divided by a pressure in the bottle of 200 atm. is a 5 Liter bottle per person for emergency storage only. This is close to the GL figure for resting person. But?if you are in a emergency 72 hour situation one person will rest and all other sleep.. So on more than one person sub the figures over 72 hours will be lower. By the way -if I am?in Sgt.Peppers the flowmeter is some what by 0,2 L/h.. Emile can give you actual flowmeter figures for a three person sub. vbr Carsten?? - "If you are not sure - double it.." (unkown submarine engineer) "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: According to the ABS rules, per (11/35.3), you need sufficient oxygen for the mission duration PLUS the 72 hour reserve. > >Per (8/7.1), oxygen:? 0.038 kg (0.084 lb) per hour, per person, at 1 atm. > >x 72 hours emergency duration = 2.736 kg (6.032 lb) per person for 72 hours. > >2.736 kg x (1000g/kg) x (mol O2/31.9988g O2) x (22.4 liters / mol O2) = 1915 liters (@ STP, ideal gas assumptions) > >= 68 cubic feet oxygen per person for emergency reserve, additional oxygen appropriate to mission duration. > >Sean > > > >On 2014-04-22 17:52, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little.? >>I am showing >>*80 cubic feet of O2 per person >>*23 lbs sodasorb per person >> >> >>Is this right? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 15:38:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:38:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support Message-ID: <20140423123845.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.fd6b63ae0c.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 18:14:26 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Steinke hood Message-ID: <6fe00.4dcee704.40899542@aol.com> Thanks, Carsten, Considering your formula based on the age and projected life span of the owner/pilot, I'll provide in my will for who should inherit my Steinke hood. Hopefully it will still be in unused condition. Jim T. In a message dated 4/23/2014 12:59:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Difficult to say. On the unit I have some of the tempoary glues to fix for example zippers covers gives way. The neck skirt was extremly hard and the water signal maker tends to leak. They are pretty old. From the 90ies or so. But on a price of 15 USD - means less than 1% of the original price I would suggest the following formular: Unit to use x 2, plus one training unit, puls 1 for destroy test, plus a additional amout for later sale for Psubs friends. For a 3 person sub this means 3 x 2 +1 + 1 + 2 = 10 units = 150 USD. Or in case of real use 50 USD per life. say remainig life after successfull emergency exist is 40 years this means : 50 /40 = 1.25 USD per year of life. But it depents stroong on how old are you and how often you have to emergency exit your sub.. Statistic is nice.. isn't it ? Even if the units have problems: Bring them to a cpompany built rubber boats or duiver suits. Strip them an rebuild them. Will be much cheaper than to purchase new ones. By the way I order one forward. test them, calculate the fixing cost and order than 9 more. If you can choose ask the guy if he can look for the samp outside of the bag and select younger building years... vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Carsten, I've wondered how long a Steinke hood is good in storage. Do any of the components deteriorate over time and require replacement? Thanks, Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 12:50:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Thank you for the info Carsten. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone ""Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi Scott - Check them. If the neckshirt is to hard to get it over: Bring it to a divesuit shop and let them make and glue new skirt from neopren. If they have a capsule with water paint maker - remove this. The capsule tend to leak or break if old and can be nicly couloring your interior. One unit can be marked on the outside bag as training unit. I did it with my 10 units that way. Video with training unit in action at 00:20 + 03.00 + 4:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvFelmuKA vbr Carsten "via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: Scott, here's the beauty of the venerable Psubs archive: http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0504/msg00219.html This is from 2005 thanks to Alec. -Jim In a message dated 4/22/2014 9:51:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Does anyone know where to get / or how to make a Steinke hood? I thought I saw Cliff had one for the R-300. That would be a really nice safety addition to my sub. Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 18:44:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:44:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support In-Reply-To: <20140423070308.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.662dbc40ae.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140423070308.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.662dbc40ae.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <5358426f.a3b2440a.6a5f.ffffaea3@mx.google.com> >From what I recall I believe it was 20kg for 2 people which is close. However I need to test. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 24 April 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support No problem Sean, I believe my amount it right, it just didn't look consistent with the rest of psubs, but just based on the little amounts of O2 that a lot of psubbers are carrying, I don't believe most are carrying enough sodasorb either. I came up with 23lbs per person (46 lbs total). Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: Wed, April 23, 2014 6:48 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion I'm sorry - I was short on time last night or I would have addressed the scrubbing as well. The design expected CO2 production rate is set by the rules in a similar manner. You need to look at the data sheet of your chosen scrubber media to find it's scrubbing capacity, efficiency, etc., then size the media volume accordingly (mission duration + 72 hours), and make sure that the flow path, flow rate / dwell time and so forth are sufficient to meet the rated capacity. Also, you might want to separate mission and emergency scrubbers to conserve media. Sean On April 23, 2014 7:02:00 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Seems like your results on O2 are the same that I found. I have (2) 80 cubic foot O2 tanks on my 2 man submarine. I am pretty sure most psubbers are not sticking to the mission time plus 72 hour requirement. I believe my figuring of 23 lbs of intersorb 812 per person is also close to correct and most psubbers are not carrying that as well. It seemed like a lot to me at the beginning based on my observations of other psubs, but I think it is correct. Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Life support From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 8:13 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion According to the ABS rules, per (11/35.3), you need sufficient oxygen for the mission duration PLUS the 72 hour reserve. Per (8/7.1), oxygen: 0.038 kg (0.084 lb) per hour, per person, at 1 atm. x 72 hours emergency duration = 2.736 kg (6.032 lb) per person for 72 hours. 2.736 kg x (1000g/kg) x (mol O2/31.9988g O2) x (22.4 liters / mol O2) = 1915 liters (@ STP, ideal gas assumptions) = 68 cubic feet oxygen per person for emergency reserve, additional oxygen appropriate to mission duration. Sean On 2014-04-22 17:52, swaters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have been trying to make sure I have suffecent life support for 72 hours per ABS. It seems like the research varys a little. I am showing *80 cubic feet of O2 per person *23 lbs sodasorb per person Is this right? Thanks, Scott Waters _____ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9711 (20140423) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 19:02:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc Message-ID: <1398294169.10042.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What do I enter if I don't want to have hull stiffners. I want to compare results with the Psubs online calculator Thanks Pete From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 20:34:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 20:34:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc In-Reply-To: <1398294169.10042.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398294169.10042.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53585C13.2010805@psubs.org> You have to put in some kind of value and as I recall, very small numbers can come up with some weird results. If you use 36" OD, 72" length, and .25" thickness for the shell, and then enter .1" for the stiffeners, you'll see that the bottom line calculation (line 92) is a max depth of 1 foot. However, if you look at line 51 which is the maximum Pa for inter-stiffener strength you'll note that it is 61.2 psi which matches the results of the unstiffened online calculator. Note that both of these results correspond to a "n" of .8 which you can manipulate in the excel spreadsheet but is hard-wired in the unstiffened calculator. So I think the answer is that you have to use very small number for lines 18 through 21 (try .001) but ignore line 92 and find the lowest Pa between lines 51, 56, 63, and 71 to determine the maximum allowable operating pressure. Jon On 4/23/2014 7:02 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What do I enter if I don't want to have hull stiffners. I want to compare results with the Psubs online calculator > > Thanks Pete > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 23 20:50:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc In-Reply-To: <53585C13.2010805@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1398300619.51972.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Jon. What is n ? Is that the safety margin ? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/23/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2014, 5:34 PM You have to put in some kind of value and as I recall, very small numbers can come up with some weird results.? If you use 36" OD, 72" length, and .25" thickness for the shell, and then enter .1" for the stiffeners, you'll see that the bottom line calculation (line 92) is a max depth of 1 foot.? However, if you look at line 51 which is the maximum Pa for inter-stiffener strength you'll note that it is 61.2 psi which matches the results of the unstiffened online calculator.? Note that both of these results correspond to a "n" of .8 which you can manipulate in the excel spreadsheet but is hard-wired in the unstiffened calculator. So I think the answer is that you have to use very small number for lines 18 through 21 (try .001) but ignore line 92 and find the lowest Pa between lines 51, 56, 63, and 71 to determine the maximum allowable operating pressure. Jon On 4/23/2014 7:02 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What do I enter if I don't want to have hull stiffners. I want to compare results with the Psubs online calculator > > Thanks Pete > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 08:48:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:48:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc In-Reply-To: <1398300619.51972.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398300619.51972.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53590829.1050801@psubs.org> Yes, you can think of it as a safety margin. On 4/23/2014 8:50 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Jon. What is n ? Is that the safety margin ? > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 08:54:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 06:54:40 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc In-Reply-To: <53585C13.2010805@psubs.org> References: <1398294169.10042.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <53585C13.2010805@psubs.org> Message-ID: Per the ABS rules, different equations are provided for unstiffened cylinders, primarily because the absence of stiffeners which meet the "heavy stiffener" criteria means that the overall length of the section considered for the overall buckling calculation is increased to encompass the length of the cylinder in question, the length of any adjoining conical sections and subsequent cylindrical sections (up to the first instance of a "heavy" stiffener), and 40% of the inside length of adjoining heads. Thus, you must know this total effective length to properly evaluate the proposed section. Sean On April 23, 2014 6:34:27 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >You have to put in some kind of value and as I recall, very small >numbers can come up with some weird results. If you use 36" OD, 72" >length, and .25" thickness for the shell, and then enter .1" for the >stiffeners, you'll see that the bottom line calculation (line 92) is a >max depth of 1 foot. However, if you look at line 51 which is the >maximum Pa for inter-stiffener strength you'll note that it is 61.2 psi > >which matches the results of the unstiffened online calculator. Note >that both of these results correspond to a "n" of .8 which you can >manipulate in the excel spreadsheet but is hard-wired in the >unstiffened >calculator. > >So I think the answer is that you have to use very small number for >lines 18 through 21 (try .001) but ignore line 92 and find the lowest >Pa >between lines 51, 56, 63, and 71 to determine the maximum allowable >operating pressure. > >Jon > > > > >On 4/23/2014 7:02 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> What do I enter if I don't want to have hull stiffners. I want to >compare results with the Psubs online calculator >> >> Thanks Pete >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:00:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:00:23 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc In-Reply-To: <1398300619.51972.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398300619.51972.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The "n" is actually supposed to be the Greek letter "eta", and is labeled in the ABS rules as "usage factor". Its value is prescribed by the rules for each section / failure type. The usage factor is a multiplier applied to the critical pressure for each failure mode, to get a prescribed maximum allowable working pressure for that mode. Sean On April 23, 2014 6:50:19 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Jon. What is n ? Is that the safety margin ? >-------------------------------------------- >On Wed, 4/23/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS Hull Calc >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2014, 5:34 PM > > > You have to put in some kind of value and as I recall, very > small numbers can come up with some weird results.? If > you use 36" OD, 72" length, and .25" thickness for the > shell, and then enter .1" for the stiffeners, you'll see > that the bottom line calculation (line 92) is a max depth of > 1 foot.? However, if you look at line 51 which is the > maximum Pa for inter-stiffener strength you'll note that it > is 61.2 psi which matches the results of the unstiffened > online calculator.? Note that both of these results > correspond to a "n" of .8 which you can manipulate in the > excel spreadsheet but is hard-wired in the unstiffened > calculator. > > So I think the answer is that you have to use very small > number for lines 18 through 21 (try .001) but ignore line 92 > and find the lowest Pa between lines 51, 56, 63, and 71 to > determine the maximum allowable operating pressure. > > Jon > > > > > On 4/23/2014 7:02 PM, Pete Niedermayr via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What do I enter if I don't want to have hull stiffners. > I want to compare results with the Psubs online calculator > > > > Thanks Pete > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:17:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Dean Cropp via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:17:27 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?windows-1252?q?HDPE_Sub_hull=85=3F?= Message-ID: <73D40E70-F1BF-49D4-AB1B-AC9401653A25@bigpond.com> Hi everyone.. I an still toying with two designs of PSUB, one larger, steel and with an AUX diesel engine 3PAX?. But also with a smaller 2PAX more mobile system and have been looking into the possibility of using HDPE as a hull material for a small 100msw PSUB http://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-pipe-systems/pe-pressure-pipe/ There is off the shelf (Sort of) 1000mm OD pipe here in Australia with a 60mm wall thickness but I have also come across a 1360mm-OD and 1650mm-OD pipe again with 60mm wall thickness that may be available. HDPE can be welded, drilled and tapped quite well and using fittings/penatrators made of delrin with o'ring seals has worked well on some camera housings I have made. Has anyone looked further into this? is the wall thickness enough to just have bulkheads instead of stiffeners? no corrosion problems and it is super slippy in the water! I have always looked at having HDPE battery pods, what not the whole sub? Dean Cropp ~ Underwater DOP ~ Ocean Wrangler ~ Sydney : Australia p: 0416287833 (Int p: +61 416 287 833) e: croppycam at bigpond.com s: croppycam w: www.accessallangles.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:20:44 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:20:44 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as 0.25 Lpm The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring constant fiddling. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:27:46 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 06:27:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Message-ID: <20140424062746.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.5ac8389fb0.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:48:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:48:09 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: James, I got mine from this address dekromte at hotmail.com He has a lot in stock so ask what you need. Cost just GBP 15,- Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: donderdag 24 april 2014 15:21 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Hi all, Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as 0.25 Lpm The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring constant fiddling. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:52:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?b?SERQRSBTdWIgaHVsbOKApj8=?= Message-ID: <4e3ac.54883b42.408a7131@aol.com> Dean, Here's one summary on the pros and cons of HDPE. http://www.ides.com/pm/HDPE.asp Jim T. In a message dated 4/24/2014 8:18:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi everyone.. I an still toying with two designs of PSUB, one larger, steel and with an AUX diesel engine 3PAX?. But also with a smaller 2PAX more mobile system and have been looking into the possibility of using HDPE as a hull material for a small 100msw PSUB http://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-pipe-systems/pe-pressure-pipe/ There is off the shelf (Sort of) 1000mm OD pipe here in Australia with a 60mm wall thickness but I have also come across a 1360mm-OD and 1650mm-OD pipe again with 60mm wall thickness that may be available. HDPE can be welded, drilled and tapped quite well and using fittings/penatrators made of delrin with o'ring seals has worked well on some camera housings I have made. Has anyone looked further into this? is the wall thickness enough to just have bulkheads instead of stiffeners? no corrosion problems and it is super slippy in the water! I have always looked at having HDPE battery pods, what not the whole sub? Dean Cropp ~ Underwater DOP ~ Ocean Wrangler ~ Sydney : Australia p: 0416287833 (Int p: +61 416 287 833) e: _croppycam at bigpond.com_ (mailto:croppycam at bigpond.com) s: croppycam w: _www.accessallangles.com_ (http://www.accessallangles.com/) = _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:58:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:58:09 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: <20140424062746.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.5ac8389fb0.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140424062746.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.5ac8389fb0.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Scott, Almost there, but its the wrong fitting. I need a bull nose like you'd fit straight to a welding cylinder. I made my system to take that sort as thats what my current reg was. Id prefer not to change it as its all been cleaned etc and is really super simple. Emile, i'll try that guy. Thanks Regards James On 24 April 2014 14:27, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > > > http://www.onlinemedicalsupply.com/p-8020-regulator-oxygen-0-8-lpm-540-cga.aspx?utm_source=GoogleProducts&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AllProducts&gclid=CK3Ajeuc-b0CFWEV7AodxTMANg#.U1kRH1KPLcs > > This is what I have in my sub. Flow rate down to 1/8 liter > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:20 am > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Hi all, > > Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd > like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as > 0.25 Lpm > > The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring > constant fiddling. > > Thanks > James > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 09:58:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:58:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do an eBay search for *pediatric* oxygen regulator. Pediatric ones have a max flow of 4 lpm and finer graduations. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 9:20 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd > like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as > 0.25 Lpm > > The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring > constant fiddling. > > Thanks > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 10:03:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:03:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: References: <20140424062746.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.5ac8389fb0.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: How about this one? Pediatric with a CGA540 fitting. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Drive-Medical-CGA-540-Pediatric-Oxygen-Regulator-0-4-LPM-LPM-DISS-fitting-18307G-/191076918767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7d1265ef On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 9:58 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Almost there, but its the wrong fitting. I need a bull nose like you'd > fit straight to a welding cylinder. I made my system to take that sort as > thats what my current reg was. Id prefer not to change it as its all been > cleaned etc and is really super simple. > > Emile, i'll try that guy. Thanks > > Regards > James > > On 24 April 2014 14:27, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, >> >> >> http://www.onlinemedicalsupply.com/p-8020-regulator-oxygen-0-8-lpm-540-cga.aspx?utm_source=GoogleProducts&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AllProducts&gclid=CK3Ajeuc-b0CFWEV7AodxTMANg#.U1kRH1KPLcs >> >> This is what I have in my sub. Flow rate down to 1/8 liter >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:20 am >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> Hi all, >> >> Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd >> like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as >> 0.25 Lpm >> >> The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring >> constant fiddling. >> >> Thanks >> James >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 10:07:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:07:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Message-ID: <20140424070731.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.6600a18d72.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 10:20:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:20:12 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: <20140424070731.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.6600a18d72.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140424070731.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.6600a18d72.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: This is the sort of fitting i need. I can see im going to have to change the adapter if i cant find one. On 24 April 2014 15:07, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > ok. here ya go > > > http://www.amazon.com/OXYGEN-Regulators-0-8-LPM-EA/dp/B004GC4IFG/ref=sr_1_6?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1398348350&sr=1-6&keywords=Medline+oxygen > > Mine is plumbed into my system which allows bottle selection so I used > NPT. Here is the one that hooks up directly to a bottle. > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:58 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Hi Scott, > > Almost there, but its the wrong fitting. I need a bull nose like you'd > fit straight to a welding cylinder. I made my system to take that sort as > thats what my current reg was. Id prefer not to change it as its all been > cleaned etc and is really super simple. > > Emile, i'll try that guy. Thanks > > Regards > James > > On 24 April 2014 14:27, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, >> >> >> http://www.onlinemedicalsupply.com/p-8020-regulator-oxygen-0-8-lpm-540-cga.aspx?utm_source=GoogleProducts&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AllProducts&gclid=CK3Ajeuc-b0CFWEV7AodxTMANg#.U1kRH1KPLcs >> >> This is what I have in my sub. Flow rate down to 1/8 liter >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:20 am >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> Hi all, >> >> Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd >> like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as >> 0.25 Lpm >> >> The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring >> constant fiddling. >> >> Thanks >> James >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Regulator.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 15696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 10:50:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:50:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Message-ID: <20140424075033.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.856670498f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 11:17:10 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:17:10 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: <20140424075033.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.856670498f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20140424075033.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.856670498f.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Scott, Its to hook up to my internal system. I made it with a female bull nose adapter so i could just screw the reg i had into it. See picture. Ideally id like to get another bull nose reg but one that has smaller flow rate. Then i could just remove the old one and replace it. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page27952.htm Thanks james On 24 April 2014 15:50, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > > Are you looking for a CGA fitting to hook onto a welding bottle or a > fitting to fit on a medical O2 bottle? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 7:20 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > This is the sort of fitting i need. I can see im going to have to change > the adapter if i cant find one. > > > > > On 24 April 2014 15:07, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> ok. here ya go >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/OXYGEN-Regulators-0-8-LPM-EA/dp/B004GC4IFG/ref=sr_1_6?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1398348350&sr=1-6&keywords=Medline+oxygen >> >> Mine is plumbed into my system which allows bottle selection so I used >> NPT. Here is the one that hooks up directly to a bottle. >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:58 am >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> Almost there, but its the wrong fitting. I need a bull nose like you'd >> fit straight to a welding cylinder. I made my system to take that sort as >> thats what my current reg was. Id prefer not to change it as its all been >> cleaned etc and is really super simple. >> >> Emile, i'll try that guy. Thanks >> >> Regards >> James >> >> On 24 April 2014 14:27, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> James, >>> >>> >>> http://www.onlinemedicalsupply.com/p-8020-regulator-oxygen-0-8-lpm-540-cga.aspx?utm_source=GoogleProducts&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AllProducts&gclid=CK3Ajeuc-b0CFWEV7AodxTMANg#.U1kRH1KPLcs >>> >>> This is what I have in my sub. Flow rate down to 1/8 liter >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator >>> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 6:20 am >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators? I'd >>> like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as >>> 0.25 Lpm >>> >>> The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring >>> constant fiddling. >>> >>> Thanks >>> James >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 15:13:38 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:13:38 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did anyone get my response and attachment to this post about aluminium welding? I was braced for a firestorm of criticism but nobody said anything. Either everyone agrees, doesnt care or didnt get it....which is it? :) Kind Regards James F On 23 April 2014 15:32, James Frankland wrote: > Hi All, > I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but > im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to > say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is > just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. > Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a > certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the > diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning > as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The > only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to > straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a > sausage before you get it into the pool. > > Just my 2p. > Kind Regards > James F > > On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band >> (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure >> they where off. Lots to learn! >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon >>> shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a >>> tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap >>> aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a >>> balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But >>> unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments >>> you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting >>> depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are >>> trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick >>> piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is >>> very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should >>> be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never >>> hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is >>> easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just >>> left in its original mill finish. >>> As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would >>> recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . >>> Hope this helps, >>> Dan Lance >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack >>>> 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern >>>> thruster. >>>> >>>> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an >>>> arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior >>>> to going back to the AC mode. >>>> >>>> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >>>> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >>>> >>>> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 15:24:53 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:24:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, I got it and added to my files. Thanks! I was just trying not to clog the archives with a "thanks" response. Steve On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 3:13 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Did anyone get my response and attachment to this post about aluminium > welding? I was braced for a firestorm of criticism but nobody said > anything. Either everyone agrees, doesnt care or didnt get it....which is > it? :) > > Kind Regards > James F > > On 23 April 2014 15:32, James Frankland wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but >> im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to >> say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is >> just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. >> Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a >> certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the >> diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning >> as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The >> only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to >> straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a >> sausage before you get it into the pool. >> >> Just my 2p. >> Kind Regards >> James F >> >> On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band >>> (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure >>> they where off. Lots to learn! >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon >>>> shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a >>>> tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap >>>> aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a >>>> balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But >>>> unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments >>>> you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting >>>> depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are >>>> trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick >>>> piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is >>>> very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should >>>> be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never >>>> hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is >>>> easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just >>>> left in its original mill finish. >>>> As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would >>>> recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . >>>> Hope this helps, >>>> Dan Lance >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack >>>>> 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern >>>>> thruster. >>>>> >>>>> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an >>>>> arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior >>>>> to going back to the AC mode. >>>>> >>>>> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >>>>> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >>>>> >>>>> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 15:28:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:28:47 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no prob. I was just really suprised no-one said anything at all, i didnt think it had got through! On 24 April 2014 20:24, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, I got it and added to my files. Thanks! I was just trying not > to clog the archives with a "thanks" response. > Steve > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 3:13 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Did anyone get my response and attachment to this post about aluminium >> welding? I was braced for a firestorm of criticism but nobody said >> anything. Either everyone agrees, doesnt care or didnt get it....which is >> it? :) >> >> Kind Regards >> James F >> >> On 23 April 2014 15:32, James Frankland wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but >>> im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to >>> say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is >>> just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. >>> Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a >>> certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the >>> diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning >>> as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The >>> only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to >>> straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a >>> sausage before you get it into the pool. >>> >>> Just my 2p. >>> Kind Regards >>> James F >>> >>> On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band >>>> (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure >>>> they where off. Lots to learn! >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon >>>>> shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a >>>>> tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap >>>>> aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a >>>>> balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But >>>>> unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments >>>>> you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting >>>>> depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are >>>>> trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick >>>>> piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is >>>>> very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should >>>>> be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never >>>>> hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is >>>>> easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just >>>>> left in its original mill finish. >>>>> As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would >>>>> recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . >>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>> Dan Lance >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to >>>>>> tack 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern >>>>>> thruster. >>>>>> >>>>>> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an >>>>>> arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior >>>>>> to going back to the AC mode. >>>>>> >>>>>> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an >>>>>> Aluminum piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >>>>>> >>>>>> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 16:43:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1398372225.2926.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, have a look at this American site.http://www.emtmedicalco.com/REGULATORS-FLOWMETERS-YS-TS-FITTINGS_c8.htm I have ordered a few things from them & found them reliable. Great range of products & fittings, a real psubbers lolly shop. Alan REGULATORS OXYGEN, AIR, NITROUS & ENTONOX REGULATORS View on www.emtmedicalco.com Preview by Yahoo ________________________________ From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 regulator Hi all, ? Does anyone have a good source for medical oxygen flow regulators?? I'd like the click type with a bull nose fitting, but one that goes as low as 0.25 Lpm ? The one i have does a minimum of 1 Lpm and its too much, requiring constant fiddling. ? Thanks James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 17:57:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:57:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 calcs Message-ID: <20140424145727.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.ac2b047a7a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 24 20:24:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:24:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James , I have spent thousands of hours welding aluminum and I agree with your conclusions . The ability to fine tune the frequency and balance control makes all the difference in the world . A big ball at the end of the tungsten just doesn't conduct weld current very efficiently . Inverter type welding machines designed for use on aluminum are terrific. I wouldn't go back to an old transformer type with the add on hi frequency box for all the money in the world. ( the stone age of aluminum welding ) . Dan Lance On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 3:13 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Did anyone get my response and attachment to this post about aluminium > welding? I was braced for a firestorm of criticism but nobody said > anything. Either everyone agrees, doesnt care or didnt get it....which is > it? :) > > Kind Regards > James F > > On 23 April 2014 15:32, James Frankland wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but >> im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to >> say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is >> just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. >> Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a >> certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the >> diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning >> as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The >> only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to >> straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a >> sausage before you get it into the pool. >> >> Just my 2p. >> Kind Regards >> James F >> >> On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band >>> (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure >>> they where off. Lots to learn! >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon >>>> shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a >>>> tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap >>>> aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a >>>> balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But >>>> unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments >>>> you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting >>>> depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are >>>> trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick >>>> piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is >>>> very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should >>>> be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never >>>> hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is >>>> easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just >>>> left in its original mill finish. >>>> As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would >>>> recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . >>>> Hope this helps, >>>> Dan Lance >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack >>>>> 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern >>>>> thruster. >>>>> >>>>> I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an >>>>> arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior >>>>> to going back to the AC mode. >>>>> >>>>> It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum >>>>> piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? >>>>> >>>>> Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 25 00:12:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 00:12:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?windows-1252?q?HDPE_Sub_hull=85=3F?= In-Reply-To: <73D40E70-F1BF-49D4-AB1B-AC9401653A25@bigpond.com> References: <73D40E70-F1BF-49D4-AB1B-AC9401653A25@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <5359E0A6.7000508@psubs.org> For an 1828mm cylinder the ABS calculators are showing 25 feet maximum depth. The material properties I found were Modulus of Elasticity: 150000psi Yield Stress: 4000psi Poisson Ratio: .5 Jon On 4/24/2014 9:17 AM, Dean Cropp via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi everyone.. > > I an still toying with two designs of PSUB, one larger, steel and with > an AUX diesel engine 3PAX?. But also with a smaller 2PAX more mobile > system and have been looking into the possibility of using HDPE as a > hull material for a small 100msw PSUB > > http://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-pipe-systems/pe-pressure-pipe/ > > There is off the shelf (Sort of) 1000mm OD pipe here in Australia with > a 60mm wall thickness but I have also come across a 1360mm-OD and > 1650mm-OD pipe again with 60mm wall thickness that may be available. > HDPE can be welded, drilled and tapped quite well and using > fittings/penatrators made of delrin with o'ring seals has worked well > on some camera housings I have made. > > Has anyone looked further into this? is the wall thickness enough to > just have bulkheads instead of stiffeners? no corrosion problems and > it is super slippy in the water! > > I have always looked at having HDPE battery pods, what not the whole sub? > > > Dean Cropp > > ~ Underwater DOP ~ Ocean Wrangler ~ > Sydney : Australia > > p: 0416287833 (Int p: +61 416 287 833) > e: croppycam at bigpond.com > s: croppycam > w: www.accessallangles.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 25 00:22:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 00:22:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?windows-1252?q?HDPE_Sub_hull=85=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5359E0A6.7000508@psubs.org> References: <73D40E70-F1BF-49D4-AB1B-AC9401653A25@bigpond.com> <5359E0A6.7000508@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5359E2FD.40507@psubs.org> Sorry, scratch that previous message...I used the wrong thickness (damn metric numbers)...for 60mm thickness I get 102psi or 229 fsw max working depth. You'll need to find the exact properties of the material that you purchase. Even so, such pipe is likely not manufactured precisely and is likely to have significantly less performance than the calculator would suggest. I can relate a real world example...Lea Nichols built punched in PVC properties for a dive light and calculated failure somewhere over 100 feet however in real use the light imploded in less than 30 feet of water. Jon On 4/25/2014 12:12 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > For an 1828mm cylinder the ABS calculators are showing 25 feet maximum > depth. The material properties I found were > > Modulus of Elasticity: 150000psi > Yield Stress: 4000psi > Poisson Ratio: .5 > > Jon > > > On 4/24/2014 9:17 AM, Dean Cropp via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi everyone.. >> >> I an still toying with two designs of PSUB, one larger, steel and >> with an AUX diesel engine 3PAX?. But also with a smaller 2PAX more >> mobile system and have been looking into the possibility of using >> HDPE as a hull material for a small 100msw PSUB >> >> http://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-pipe-systems/pe-pressure-pipe/ >> >> There is off the shelf (Sort of) 1000mm OD pipe here in Australia >> with a 60mm wall thickness but I have also come across a 1360mm-OD >> and 1650mm-OD pipe again with 60mm wall thickness that may be >> available. HDPE can be welded, drilled and tapped quite well and >> using fittings/penatrators made of delrin with o'ring seals has >> worked well on some camera housings I have made. >> >> Has anyone looked further into this? is the wall thickness enough to >> just have bulkheads instead of stiffeners? no corrosion problems and >> it is super slippy in the water! >> >> I have always looked at having HDPE battery pods, what not the whole sub? >> >> >> Dean Cropp >> >> ~ Underwater DOP ~ Ocean Wrangler ~ >> Sydney : Australia >> >> p: 0416287833 (Int p: +61 416 287 833) >> e: croppycam at bigpond.com >> s: croppycam >> w: www.accessallangles.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 00:10:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Land N Sea via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:10:50 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <112D7BBAA6ED4320884D407914F3BF04@LandNSeaPC> James, There are several things that can make a good welder look bad when doing aluminum if they fail to do some basic things but once you have it, it?s real easy. As far as the ball on the end of the electrode, You can do it the way it shows on the video or I just slightly round the end on a bench grinder and it will work fine. It will ball on pretty much anything. I was told you couldn?t use a sharp electrode like you would use for welding stainless steel but that will work too and it will round it?s self out relatively quickly but it?s better to start out with a blunt one. Less chance of transferring any tungsten to the parent metal if it is a super critical weld. When welding dissimilar thicknesses, if you can, put the thick one above the thin one, favor your heat on the thick one and let gravity do the work for you. If it is super thin you can put your heat on the filler rod and let it fuse in but that is a little tricky. It is also important to try and use the proper sized electrode. I usually use 1/8? but also have two smaller sizes for the thinner stuff. There are trimixes for your shielding gas that they claim will give you better penetration but they are pretty spendy and I have all ways used straight argon with great results. Aluminum is a lot pickier than steel when it comes to contaminants. For good results, It is imperative that you clean the aluminum before welding it. Even when I am building something with new aluminum from the mill, I all ways clean the edges where I am going to weld. Aluminum is porous and it may not look contaminated but it doesn?t take much. They make special grinding discs specifically for aluminum as well as stainless steel wire wheels and brushes and do not use them on steel or you will contaminate them. I?ve herd people say they have used some sort of solvent but I don?t feel that it gets as deep into the pours as actually grinding the top layer off. I get people all the time that bring me stuff that has been out on the ocean and contaminated with salt air/water and it just won?t take a good weld unless you can physically remove the top layer to get to clean metal. If you were to leave a new piece of aluminum out doors for a while and then put a piece of aluminum next to it that has been cleaned with a grinding wheel and run a bead on both, you will not only see the difference when welding it but you will hear the difference as well. Should have a nice smooth hiss rather than a crackle. There are even things like wave signs that help with the cleaning action and penetration but I don?t think you can vary that on the cheaper machines and I believe they are factory set. Hope this helps Rick P. From: Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:24 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum Welding Technique Question James , I have spent thousands of hours welding aluminum and I agree with your conclusions . The ability to fine tune the frequency and balance control makes all the difference in the world . A big ball at the end of the tungsten just doesn't conduct weld current very efficiently . Inverter type welding machines designed for use on aluminum are terrific. I wouldn't go back to an old transformer type with the add on hi frequency box for all the money in the world. ( the stone age of aluminum welding ) . Dan Lance On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 3:13 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone get my response and attachment to this post about aluminium welding? I was braced for a firestorm of criticism but nobody said anything. Either everyone agrees, doesnt care or didnt get it....which is it? :) Kind Regards James F On 23 April 2014 15:32, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I was going to write my 2 pence worth (UK version) in reply to this, but im just going to attach a sheet i wrote which covers all i was going to say. I know there are a lot of expert welders on the forum, so this is just my personal take on it. I can get good results most times. Personally, i dislike the "balled electrode" thinking. It will ball to a certain extent of course, but I dont like it to become bigger than the diameter of the electrode. With correct frequency and as little cleaning as you can get away with, i can keep the ball small and arc tight. The only thing not on this sheet is that torch angle is important. As near to straight up and down as possible, this prevents the rod turning into a sausage before you get it into the pool. Just my 2p. Kind Regards James F On 23 April 2014 01:01, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Dan. I did use 100% argon gas but my tungsten has a red band (2% thoriated). I am also getting to know my machine settings so I'm sure they where off. Lots to learn! Steve On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve, Are you using pure tungsten ( green band on one end ) and argon shielding gas ? . With the torch set on DC+ you will usually experience a tungsten melt down. Just set the machine on AC and run a pass on some scrap aluminum . You will get a balled end . Not to complicate things but a balled end is not exactly the most preferred condition in the world. But unless you have an inverter type machine with lots of parameter adjustments you really don't have much choice. Alec is correct the amperage setting depends on the thickness of the material you are working with . If you are trying to join a thin piece to a thick piece its ok to preheat the thick piece first , just don't exceed 250 degrees F. Old oxidized aluminum is very difficult to weld unless the crusty white scale is removed . It should be nice and "shiny" before you start . And of course a little preheat never hurt anybody . Aluminum is a near perfect material for marine use , it is easy to cut , form , shape and weld . It can be painted , anodized or just left in its original mill finish. As far getting welding advice from Youtube , the only source I would recommend is "Welding Tips and Tricks" . This guy is really, really good . Hope this helps, Dan Lance On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I attempted some Aluminum welding this weekend. I needed to tack 2 together pieces of a trolling motor mount I modified for my stern thruster. I watched a video that said it is important to first first strike an arc on DC+ for a few seconds to create a "ball" on the tungsten tip prior to going back to the AC mode. It was unclear in the video if the arc was being struck on an Aluminum piece or the Steel welding table surface. Does it matter? Also they said the amp range should be set to 55-75. Seem OK? Thanks, Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 17:02:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners Message-ID: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? Thanks Pete -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hull A.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 79520 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hull B.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 78745 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 17:08:35 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:08:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation Message-ID: All, I am evaluating my K-250 hard hatch/tower ring mating. This hard hatch was custom made for this K-250 by the previous owner. When the hatch is closed (w/o-ring removed) and the interior of the sub is brightly lit I notice I can see light between the hatch and hatch ring in places. The "gaps" are not huge and I believe with the o-ring installed no light would be seen. However I believe it tells me there are some flatness issues in this interface. In a perfect world I should see no light. My questions are, what is a precise way to identify the "high points" and is grinding the hatch surface vs. the tower ring the right surface to modify? Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 18:48:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1398552486.75361.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Steve, Been there, you can use feeler gauges to identify the high spots. Depending how much it is, I think your best to leave it alone. I have deep tested with .002in distortion with no issues. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/26/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, April 26, 2014, 5:08 PM All, I am evaluating my K-250 hard hatch/tower ring mating. This hard hatch was custom made for this K-250 by the previous owner.? When the hatch is closed (w/o-ring removed) and the interior of the sub is brightly lit I notice I can see light between the hatch and hatch ring in places. The "gaps" are not huge and I believe with the o-ring installed no light would be seen. However I believe it tells me there are some flatness issues in this interface. In a perfect world I should see no light. My questions are, what is a precise way to identify the "high points" and is grinding the hatch surface vs. the tower ring the right surface to modify? Steve -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 18:53:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:53:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <535C38F4.8090004@psubs.org> A Sean question I think, but I believe Figure A is correct for a "T" rib whether inside or outside. Jon On 4/26/2014 5:02 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? > > Thanks Pete > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 19:18:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D12FBD03079717-5F4-16ACE@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> The PC-14s, Aquarius, Curasub, et al use leg in T sections. ABS has not allowed anything similar to a doubler plate in many years, which the leg out design would give you. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Apr 26, 2014 5:03 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? Thanks Pete _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 20:41:53 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:41:53 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <535C5251.8060602@telus.net> They are both permissible, provided that the stiffener section is symmetrical, and the web to hull weld is full penetration. Vance refers to a "doubler plate" which is typically a reinforcement joined by perimeter welding only, which would be prohibited. Any partial penetration weld joint creates an artificial crack at the interface which can precipitate a failure. All of your pressure boundary welds must be full-penetration and 100% NDT inspected for defects. With a thick section like the posted example against the hull, you can see how the acceptable technique would be difficult to accomplish, both to first create the fully fused full-penetration weld and then to do your subsequent 100% NDT inspection. The amount of heat you would drive into the hull cylinder when welding the thick version is also apt to cause more warpage / shrinkage of the joint than welding the narrow version. Additionally, the purpose of the stiffener at all is to increase the area moment of inertia of the combined hull / stiffener section, which the version with the flange / outstand AWAY from the hull does more effectively (more efficiently for the same weight of material), in addition to being simpler to properly fabricate and inspect. Sean On 2014-04-26 15:02, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? > > Thanks Pete From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 20:52:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:52:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, This is normal. With Snoopy you can see light in places, even with the o-ring installed. The light disappears just hand-tightening the dogs. Best, Alec > On Apr 26, 2014, at 5:08 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All, I am evaluating my K-250 hard hatch/tower ring mating. This hard hatch was custom made for this K-250 by the previous owner. > > When the hatch is closed (w/o-ring removed) and the interior of the sub is brightly lit I notice I can see light between the hatch and hatch ring in places. The "gaps" are not huge and I believe with the o-ring installed no light would be seen. > > However I believe it tells me there are some flatness issues in this interface. In a perfect world I should see no light. > > My questions are, what is a precise way to identify the "high points" and is grinding the hatch surface vs. the tower ring the right surface to modify? > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 20:58:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <535C5251.8060602@telus.net> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <535C5251.8060602@telus.net> Message-ID: <8D12FCAE55D6A24-5F4-16F67@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> Sean, Thanks for that. It just never occurred to me that you could actually get enough penetration (without excessive warpage) to qualify. And it seems not. My doubler plate analogy notwithstanding, of course. I was thinking back to the old days when Perry used doublers. ABS put the kibosh on that, and it was a big change to install doubled thicknesses (for lift pads, for instance). We ground a few old doublers down on a couple of bells and found (surprise, surprise) rust. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Apr 26, 2014 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners They are both permissible, provided that the stiffener section is symmetrical, and the web to hull weld is full penetration. Vance refers to a "doubler plate" which is typically a reinforcement joined by perimeter welding only, which would be prohibited. Any partial penetration weld joint creates an artificial crack at the interface which can precipitate a failure. All of your pressure boundary welds must be full-penetration and 100% NDT inspected for defects. With a thick section like the posted example against the hull, you can see how the acceptable technique would be difficult to accomplish, both to first create the fully fused full-penetration weld and then to do your subsequent 100% NDT inspection. The amount of heat you would drive into the hull cylinder when welding the thick version is also apt to cause more warpage / shrinkage of the joint than welding the narrow version. Additionally, the purpose of the stiffener at all is to increase the area moment of inertia of the combined hull / stiffener section, which the version with the flange / outstand AWAY from the hull does more effectively (more efficiently for the same weight of material), in addition to being simpler to properly fabricate and inspect. Sean On 2014-04-26 15:02, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? > > Thanks Pete _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 21:47:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 13:47:49 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <8D12FCAE55D6A24-5F4-16F67@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <535C5251.8060602@telus.net> <8D12FCAE55D6A24-5F4-16F67@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <535c61d0.6a14450a.331c.ffffb547@mx.google.com> I think that GL may allow it as I noticed that Carsten's sub used I section stiffeners and his explanation is that with a full seal weld the oxygen will form a light rust initially but then the available oxygen is all used up and no further rusting will take place. Pressure vessels often have a breather hole in doubler plates possibly to eliminate pressure from the heat of welding. I don't know if they are supposed to be welded up after the seal weld. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2014 12:58 p.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners Sean, Thanks for that. It just never occurred to me that you could actually get enough penetration (without excessive warpage) to qualify. And it seems not. My doubler plate analogy notwithstanding, of course. I was thinking back to the old days when Perry used doublers. ABS put the kibosh on that, and it was a big change to install doubled thicknesses (for lift pads, for instance). We ground a few old doublers down on a couple of bells and found (surprise, surprise) rust. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Apr 26, 2014 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners They are both permissible, provided that the stiffener section is symmetrical, and the web to hull weld is full penetration. Vance refers to a "doubler plate" which is typically a reinforcement joined by perimeter welding only, which would be prohibited. Any partial penetration weld joint creates an artificial crack at the interface which can precipitate a failure. All of your pressure boundary welds must be full-penetration and 100% NDT inspected for defects. With a thick section like the posted example against the hull, you can see how the acceptable technique would be difficult to accomplish, both to first create the fully fused full-penetration weld and then to do your subsequent 100% NDT inspection. The amount of heat you would drive into the hull cylinder when welding the thick version is also apt to cause more warpage / shrinkage of the joint than welding the narrow version. Additionally, the purpose of the stiffener at all is to increase the area moment of inertia of the combined hull / stiffener section, which the version with the flange / outstand AWAY from the hull does more effectively (more efficiently for the same weight of material), in addition to being simpler to properly fabricate and inspect. Sean On 2014-04-26 15:02, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures in the ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs (Curasub and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both correct ? > > Thanks Pete _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9727 (20140426) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 26 22:24:25 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:24:25 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners In-Reply-To: <8D12FCAE55D6A24-5F4-16F67@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> References: <1398546174.30056.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <535C5251.8060602@telus.net> <8D12FCAE55D6A24-5F4-16F67@webmail-d295.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2530a092-b57b-48da-918f-c0ed9db8c1fc@email.android.com> I used to see doubler plates used all the time on mining machinery, despite the fact that these details are extremely sensitive to fatigue. Fatigue seems to be overlooked by a lot of junior designers. Failure after failure, and every time the same solution: cut it out, and replace with a casting which accomplishes the same thing but with only full penetration welding, and of course the casting allows for generous radii and mitigation of stress concentrations that you can't achieve with plate fabrication. Full penetration is required on hull welds. I would employ it everywhere I couldn't afford a failure. Sean On April 26, 2014 6:58:12 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, > > >Thanks for that. It just never occurred to me that you could actually >get enough penetration (without excessive warpage) to qualify. And it >seems not. My doubler plate analogy notwithstanding, of course. I was >thinking back to the old days when Perry used doublers. ABS put the >kibosh on that, and it was a big change to install doubled thicknesses >(for lift pads, for instance). We ground a few old doublers down on a >couple of bells and found (surprise, surprise) rust. > > >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Sat, Apr 26, 2014 8:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Stiffeners > > >They are both permissible, provided that the stiffener section is >symmetrical, and the web to hull weld is full penetration. Vance >refers >to a "doubler plate" which is typically a reinforcement joined by >perimeter welding only, which would be prohibited. Any partial >penetration weld joint creates an artificial crack at the interface >which can precipitate a failure. All of your pressure boundary welds >must be full-penetration and 100% NDT inspected for defects. With a >thick section like the posted example against the hull, you can see how >the acceptable technique would be difficult to accomplish, both to >first >create the fully fused full-penetration weld and then to do your >subsequent 100% NDT inspection. The amount of heat you would drive >into >the hull cylinder when welding the thick version is also apt to cause >more warpage / shrinkage of the joint than welding the narrow version. >Additionally, the purpose of the stiffener at all is to increase the >area moment of inertia of the combined hull / stiffener section, which >the version with the flange / outstand AWAY from the hull does more >effectively (more efficiently for the same weight of material), in >addition to being simpler to properly fabricate and inspect. > >Sean > > > >On 2014-04-26 15:02, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I have been looking at external stiffeners and I see that the figures >in the >ABS Hull Calculator shows them as (see Hull B pdf ) where as some subs >(Curasub >and Aquarius) seem to have them as (see Hull B pdf). Are they both >correct ? >> >> Thanks Pete >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 27 07:50:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 07:50:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I wasn't really sure. I know this hatch/tower ring has historically functioned. This hatch is pretty beefy in my opinion. I have bigger fish to fry so I will move on for now. I had the hatch on as I am evaluating how I can make it open from the exterior. I would like to do this by only having to create 2 penetrations. ? ? On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > This is normal. With Snoopy you can see light in places, even with the > o-ring installed. The light disappears just hand-tightening the dogs. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > On Apr 26, 2014, at 5:08 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > All, I am evaluating my K-250 hard hatch/tower ring mating. This hard > hatch was custom made for this K-250 by the previous owner. > > > > When the hatch is closed (w/o-ring removed) and the interior of the sub > is brightly lit I notice I can see light between the hatch and hatch ring > in places. The "gaps" are not huge and I believe with the o-ring installed > no light would be seen. > > > > However I believe it tells me there are some flatness issues in this > interface. In a perfect world I should see no light. > > > > My questions are, what is a precise way to identify the "high points" > and is grinding the hatch surface vs. the tower ring the right surface to > modify? > > > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hard Hatch Compressed.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29223 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 28 05:31:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:31:36 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch/Hatch Ring Flatness Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had both my hatch and tower machined flat before installation. Even with that there still seems to be a tiny gap. I fiddled around with the hinge mounting for ages, trying to eliminate the gap, but found like Alec says, with the dogs tightened, it dissapears. It doesnt leak. Regards James On 27 April 2014 12:50, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > OK, I wasn't really sure. I know this hatch/tower ring has historically > functioned. This hatch is pretty beefy in my opinion. I have bigger fish > to fry so I will move on for now. I had the hatch on as I am evaluating > how I can make it open from the exterior. I would like to do this by only > having to create 2 penetrations. > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> This is normal. With Snoopy you can see light in places, even with the >> o-ring installed. The light disappears just hand-tightening the dogs. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> > On Apr 26, 2014, at 5:08 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > All, I am evaluating my K-250 hard hatch/tower ring mating. This hard >> hatch was custom made for this K-250 by the previous owner. >> > >> > When the hatch is closed (w/o-ring removed) and the interior of the sub >> is brightly lit I notice I can see light between the hatch and hatch ring >> in places. The "gaps" are not huge and I believe with the o-ring installed >> no light would be seen. >> > >> > However I believe it tells me there are some flatness issues in this >> interface. In a perfect world I should see no light. >> > >> > My questions are, what is a precise way to identify the "high points" >> and is grinding the hatch surface vs. the tower ring the right surface to >> modify? >> > >> > Steve >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hard Hatch Compressed.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29223 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 29 23:11:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thundersky batteries Message-ID: <1398827490.1490.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Somebody might be interested in this, it's a ThunderskyLifepo4 battery that an electric vehicle enthusiast has disected. He has added an L shaped perspex container around it to let the innards come in to view. There is a comment from the manufacturer that it is recommended they are stored upright? due to the structure of the cells. Hugh mentioned these batteries a little while back, & Herve Jaubert had bought some for his ambients but don't know how they performed. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/orientaton-prismatic-lifepo4-cells-importanti-78410p2.html Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: