From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 09:36:48 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:36:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 Message-ID: Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making plans to attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans? The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never attended one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party in town that could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, but I'm also woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not sure I can squeeze it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I will sure try to make it. ~ Douglas S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 12:35:39 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:35:39 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Douglas, I attended last year and learned a lot. I may not be able to attend this year as I am heading to Hawaii the last week in February, and the wife may not let me go to the Big Easy by myself again. LOL Hope you can make it. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making plans to > attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans? > > The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never attended > one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party in town that > could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, but I'm also > woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not sure I can squeeze > it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I will sure try to make it. > ~ Douglas S. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Jan 2 13:44:29 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 13:44:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C5B38D.3060309@psubs.org> I highly recommend attendance at least once because I've always found it very interesting. However it is rather expensive with I think a $500 entry fee, and it is geared toward the deep pockets of the oil and gas industry. The floor displays are extremely interesting but you will find little, if anything, applicable to the home-built budget. I'll never forget the first time I attended wearing my PSUBS-Rose-Colored-Glasses and stopped at DeepSea Power and Light to look at a small LED flashlight that was on "sale" that day only for a miniscule $6000 (warrantied to 20,000 feet of course). On the other hand, there are bunches of interesting professionals in attendance and your chances of bumping into someone of the caliber of Phil Nuytten (who usually attends) is pretty good. Vance, Dan Lance, Pete Hoffman, and Mike Caudle are usually regular attendees. Jon On 1/2/2014 9:36 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making > plans to attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans? > > The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never > attended one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party > in town that could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, > but I'm also woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not > sure I can squeeze it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I > will sure try to make it. ~ Douglas S. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 14:39:44 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1388691584.94443.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi David, I went in one of the two tourist subs they have operating out of Waikiki on Oahu. Have you been in them? Nice experience? but nothing like diving in?a small submarine. Alan? ________________________________ From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 3, 2014 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 Hi Douglas, I attended last year and learned a lot. I may not be able to attend this year as I am heading to Hawaii the last week in February, and the wife may not let me go to the Big Easy by myself again. LOL Hope you can make it. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making plans to attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans?? > > >The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never attended one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party in town that could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, but I'm also woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not sure I can squeeze it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I will sure try to make it. ~ Douglas S.? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 14:52:45 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:52:45 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 In-Reply-To: <1388691584.94443.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388691584.94443.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I've been on both the one in Wakiki, and in Kona. Pretty cool, but not as cozy as the snoopy. David On Jan 2, 2014 11:43 AM, "Alan James" wrote: > Hi David, > I went in one of the two tourist subs they have operating out > of Waikiki on Oahu. Have you been in them? Nice experience > but nothing like diving in a small submarine. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, January 3, 2014 6:35 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 > > Hi Douglas, > I attended last year and learned a lot. I may not be able to attend this > year as I am heading to Hawaii the last week in February, and the wife may > not let me go to the Big Easy by myself again. LOL Hope you can make it. > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: > > Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making plans to > attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans? > > The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never attended > one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party in town that > could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, but I'm also > woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not sure I can squeeze > it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I will sure try to make it. > ~ Douglas S. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 2 20:16:38 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 17:16:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box Message-ID: <1388711798.17090.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Gamma has an electrical junction between the motor and controller.? With the modification to the shaft seal assembly, the motor is closer to the controller now?and I could simply connect the cables directly to the motor.?? Is there a reason why the junction needs to be there.? A golf cart has the cables running directly to the motor.? Also the electrical panel has a main junction for all the functions.? That makes it like a rat nest of wires.? Why can't? the function wires simply run directly to the switch, witch is also the breaker in my case.? Any advice on this matter would be appreciated.? I personally like as few wires as possible and as short as possible and with as few connection points as possible. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Thu Jan 2 20:53:13 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 01:53:13 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sonic switch Message-ID: <20140102175305.SM00228@[66.162.33.185]> Hi All, ? ? I'm looking to try an activate a solenoid valve by using a wireless signal under water.? At perhaps 30 ft or so, was thinking of lowering a transmitter on a wire to the proximity of a scuba bottle. Bottle has a solenoid on it, and then at activate it from the surface via wire going near the device.? Is there any components out there that would be available for not an outrageous amount of money? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 23:28:59 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:28:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 In-Reply-To: References: <1388691584.94443.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for clueing me in guys. Sounds like a lot of fun. ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:52 PM, David Colombo wrote: > Hi Alan, I've been on both the one in Wakiki, and in Kona. Pretty cool, > but not as cozy as the snoopy. David > On Jan 2, 2014 11:43 AM, "Alan James" wrote: > >> Hi David, >> I went in one of the two tourist subs they have operating out >> of Waikiki on Oahu. Have you been in them? Nice experience >> but nothing like diving in a small submarine. >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* David Colombo >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, January 3, 2014 6:35 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention 2014 >> >> Hi Douglas, >> I attended last year and learned a lot. I may not be able to attend this >> year as I am heading to Hawaii the last week in February, and the wife may >> not let me go to the Big Easy by myself again. LOL Hope you can make it. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: >> >> Just curious if anyone has made plans or is thinking about making plans >> to attend Underwater Intervention 2014 in New Orleans? >> >> The dates are Feb. 11-13 which isn't too far away. I have never attended >> one of these events, but they seem to be about the only party in town that >> could top a PSUBS conference. I am considering attending, but I'm also >> woking a pretty tight schedule here at home so I'm not sure I can squeeze >> it in. If there is a psubs contingent attending I will sure try to make it. >> ~ Douglas S. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 3 08:53:30 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 08:53:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box In-Reply-To: <1388711798.17090.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1388711798.17090.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D6A251DAFB74-11C8-105C6@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> If it's just a junction box (no breaker) then I agree. What's the point? Makes you wonder why that was done in the first place. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 8:17 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box Gamma has an electrical junction between the motor and controller. With the modification to the shaft seal assembly, the motor is closer to the controller now and I could simply connect the cables directly to the motor. Is there a reason why the junction needs to be there. A golf cart has the cables running directly to the motor. Also the electrical panel has a main junction for all the functions. That makes it like a rat nest of wires. Why can't the function wires simply run directly to the switch, witch is also the breaker in my case. Any advice on this matter would be appreciated. I personally like as few wires as possible and as short as possible and with as few connection points as possible. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 18:12:05 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 15:12:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <8D0D6A251DAFB74-11C8-105C6@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 1/3/14, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Friday, January 3, 2014, 5:53 AM If it's just a junction box (no breaker) then I agree. What's the point? Makes you wonder why that was done in the first place. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 8:17 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box Gamma has an electrical junction between the motor and controller.? With the modification to the shaft seal assembly, the motor is closer to the controller now?and I could simply connect the cables directly to the motor.?? Is there a reason why the junction needs to be there.? A golf cart has the cables running directly to the motor.? Also the electrical panel has a main junction for all the functions.? That makes it like a rat nest of wires.? Why can't? the function wires simply run directly to the switch, witch is also the breaker in my case.? Any advice on this matter would be appreciated.? I personally like as few wires as possible and as short as possible and with as few connection points as possible. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Jan 3 18:20:21 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 18:20:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness Message-ID: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> Hey Pete, You must just be special; I'm only receiving one copy of each email. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 18:42:35 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 12:42:35 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <676B1642-77AC-4A52-BB4E-BCDDA5F2F7FE@yahoo.com> Hi pete, I've also been getting multiple copies on my Yahoo account, & not just from Psubs. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 4/01/2014, at 12:20 pm, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > > Hey Pete, > You must just be special; I'm only receiving one copy of each email. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Niedermayr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 5:12 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness > > Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 3 18:43:18 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 18:43:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D6F4B676020B-954-157F7@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> No, it's only you.....No, it's only you.....No, it's only you.....No, it's..... -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 1/3/14, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Friday, January 3, 2014, 5:53 AM If it's just a junction box (no breaker) then I agree. What's the point? Makes you wonder why that was done in the first place. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 8:17 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box Gamma has an electrical junction between the motor and controller. With the modification to the shaft seal assembly, the motor is closer to the controller now and I could simply connect the cables directly to the motor. Is there a reason why the junction needs to be there. A golf cart has the cables running directly to the motor. Also the electrical panel has a main junction for all the functions. That makes it like a rat nest of wires. Why can't the function wires simply run directly to the switch, witch is also the breaker in my case. Any advice on this matter would be appreciated. I personally like as few wires as possible and as short as possible and with as few connection points as possible. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 19:08:58 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 19:08:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <8D0D6F4B676020B-954-157F7@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> References: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0D6F4B676020B-954-157F7@webmail-d136.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8EE21F10-DCD8-406D-A574-32941DA84399@yahoo.com> Vance beat me to it Vance beat me to it Many multiple copies and only on yahoo. This has been getting progressively worse over time Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:43 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > No, it's only you.....No, it's only you.....No, it's only you.....No, it's..... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Niedermayr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 6:12 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness > > Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 1/3/14, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Friday, January 3, 2014, 5:53 AM > > If it's > just a junction box (no breaker) then I agree. What's > the point? Makes you wonder why that was done in the first > place. > Vance > > > > > > > -----Original > Message----- > > From: hank pronk > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 8:17 pm > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electrical junction box > > > > > > > > > > > > Gamma has an electrical junction between the motor and > controller. With the modification to the shaft seal > assembly, the motor is closer to the controller now and > I could simply connect the cables directly to the > motor. Is there a reason why the junction needs > to be there. A golf cart has the cables running > directly to the motor. Also the electrical panel has a > main junction for all the functions. That makes it > like a rat nest of wires. Why can't the > function wires simply run directly to the switch, witch is > also the breaker in my case. Any advice on this matter > would be appreciated. I personally like as few wires > as possible and as short as possible and with as few > connection points as > possible. > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Fri Jan 3 20:42:27 2014 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:42:27 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52C76703.9090809@ohiohills.com> On 1/3/2014 6:12 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message So far, all I see is one copy of each. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jonw at psubs.org Fri Jan 3 21:02:31 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:02:31 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <52C76703.9090809@ohiohills.com> References: <1388790725.37587.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52C76703.9090809@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <52C76BB7.60509@psubs.org> Like the others, I received multiple copies only on my yahoo account. Jon On 1/3/2014 8:42 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > On 1/3/2014 6:12 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: >> Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message > So far, all I see is one copy of each. > > > M > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From freepetesub at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 22:16:08 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 19:16:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <52C76BB7.60509@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1388805368.25513.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> well, I hope the NSA forwards this to yahoo and they fix it. Just kidding---Really No I mean It was a joke guyyyyyyyyyyysssssssssss.......... -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 1/3/14, Jon Wallace wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, January 3, 2014, 6:02 PM Like the others, I received multiple copies only on my yahoo account. Jon On 1/3/2014 8:42 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > On 1/3/2014 6:12 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: >> Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message > So far, all I see is one copy of each. > > > M > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 22:48:51 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 22:48:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <1388805368.25513.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52C76BB7.60509@psubs.org> <1388805368.25513.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No issues from my gmail account. Seems it must be a Yahoo thing. On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > well, I hope the NSA forwards this to yahoo and they fix it. Just > kidding---Really No I mean It was a joke guyyyyyyyyyyysssssssssss.......... > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 1/3/14, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Friday, January 3, 2014, 6:02 PM > > > Like the others, I received multiple copies only on my yahoo > account. > Jon > > > On 1/3/2014 8:42 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > > On 1/3/2014 6:12 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > >> Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple > copies of the same message > > So far, all I see is one copy of each. > > > > > > M > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because > avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 22:54:08 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 19:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <1388805368.25513.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1388807648.11331.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim, you forgot the trigger words for the NSA filter,...

"Infidels",... "Martyr"'...."Obamacare"

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 20:34:30 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 17:34:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions Message-ID: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle?

The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the pressure hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside.

Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions?

Thanks

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Sat Jan 4 20:41:02 2014 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 20:41:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The ASME boiler code has all that. And the conical transition welds are NOT reinforced any mire than a hemi to a cylinder would be. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 4, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle? > > The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the pressure hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside. > > Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions? > > Thanks > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 21:02:48 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 18:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: References: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1388887368.65996.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, precisely what I was looking for. Joe On Saturday, January 4, 2014 8:42 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: The ASME boiler code has all that. And the conical transition welds are NOT reinforced any mire than a hemi to a cylinder would be. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 4, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle? > >The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the pressure hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside. > >Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions? > >Thanks > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 22:05:48 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 22:05:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A transition from cylinder to cone is a major stress point, particularly if we're speaking of the transition at the larger end of the cone. If you visualize which way the plate on each side of the discontinuity will flex under pressure, you will see they are rotating in opposite directions around the point they are joined, and this means they will try to "split open" the weld by increasing the angle at which they intersect. I'm aware of three approaches to address the problem: 1 - Weld it as if it were a normal cylinder to endcap transition. This of course will work, but the difficulty is determining up to what pressure it will work. The standard math (e.g. ABS spreadsheet) will not take the discontinuity into account. Stiffening the cone as if it were a cylinder can limit the flexing of the cone, and I've seen diagrams of stiffeners placed directly on the discontinuity. See for instance Figure 1 on the ABS spreadsheet. 2 - Use a curved transition piece, similar to the knuckle of a regular endcap. 3 - Use a forged ring for the transition piece. This puts a whole lot more material at the discontinuity, since we're now talking a roughly triangular section rather than plate. Obviously #2 and #3 are MUCH more expensive than #1 but will also get you much deeper. I don't have any easy math to tell you how much, you would want to do FEA on it for sure, whichever of the three approaches you took. Best, Alec On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is > accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint > reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle? > > The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the pressure > hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside. > > Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions? > > Thanks > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 01:28:56 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 22:28:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1388903336.3691.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec,

It appears that the ASME texts are not so readily available for perusal and come at significant cost. I think then that's its fair to say that it is simply not important enough for me to consider further and just stick with the template I have on hand, which is the K-350's end capped cylinder, simple enough I should think.

Thanks for the well described analysis, that alone is quite helpful.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 5 09:05:55 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 09:05:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Message-ID: <8D0D836626C155B-27FC-1B8AA@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's which required a whole 'nother thought process. If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). Sort of a step-down, step-up option. The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. Vance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 10:59:50 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 07:59:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <8D0D836626C155B-27FC-1B8AA@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388937590.4634.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance,

The cone in consideration is in fact a motor room, with a golf cart motor inside for better air cooling. Also a compressor to finish blowing down the large volume tanks once surfaced, ventilation, and dehumidification equipment all housed. Contemplating all this for a shallow water (250' operational), 36 OD, about 18 - 20' length overall.

Would the same tank fabricators give me internally flanged separating hull sections without sacrificing the kids first car?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 5 12:03:50 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 12:03:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1388937590.4634.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388937590.4634.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D84F3D909338-C6C-1CD8D@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> Hmm. I have seen some bolted grain tanks and that sort of thing. I don't see why they couldn't do it the other way. Probably could, come to think of it. They handle big stuff so could probably do bolt patterns and surface machining as well. The problem for local shops would be to handle a structure that size, of course, and the tank fab people would be set up to do it already. I'll bet it isn't as expensive as you think. Maybe less than a used car, anyway, although it might not be much less, depending on the car. You'll learn to love bolted sections, though. Man does it make fit-out easier. Not to mention overhauls. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 11:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Vance, The cone in consideration is in fact a motor room, with a golf cart motor inside for better air cooling. Also a compressor to finish blowing down the large volume tanks once surfaced, ventilation, and dehumidification equipment all housed. Contemplating all this for a shallow water (250' operational), 36 OD, about 18 - 20' length overall. Would the same tank fabricators give me internally flanged separating hull sections without sacrificing the kids first car? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 2:05:55 PM Joe, Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's which required a whole 'nother thought process. If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). Sort of a step-down, step-up option. The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 13:32:41 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 10:32:41 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <8D0D836626C155B-27FC-1B8AA@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D836626C155B-27FC-1B8AA@webmail-d280.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, on the SeaQuestor sub I have a tapered cone attached to the main hull. Transition is just welded with no tapered collar. With our std t ribs placed, one of which is at the transition, the FEA showed no adverse loads down to 1200' on the design analysis. Since 500' is our planned depth, we decided not to pursue a transition collar. David On Jan 5, 2014 6:06 AM, wrote: > Joe, > > Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on > order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats > had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required > a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, > they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating > a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it > for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the > double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's > which required a whole 'nother thought process. > > If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long > conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, > so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at > Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" > and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two > short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO > with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). > Sort of a step-down, step-up option. > > The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full > length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor > of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat > with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, > they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively > shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and > reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran > the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have > no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. > > Vance > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 5 13:33:54 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 10:33:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <8D0D84F3D909338-C6C-1CD8D@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> References: <1388937590.4634.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0D84F3D909338-C6C-1CD8D@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1388946834.17927.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, A 36in hull dia will give you a 18in deep hemi.? That seems plenty of room for your motor etc.? I would go hemi and buy the kid a nice car.? I am wiring my motor etc today and am sure happy to be sitting comfortably in the back of gamma with the larger dia hull. Hank On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:04:13 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hmm. I have seen some bolted grain tanks and that sort of thing. I don't see why they couldn't do it the other way. Probably could, come to think of it. They handle big stuff so could probably do bolt patterns and surface machining as well. The problem for local shops would be to handle a structure that size, of course, and the tank fab people would be set up to do it already. I'll bet it isn't as expensive as you think. Maybe less than a used car, anyway, although it might not be much less, depending on the car. You'll learn to love bolted sections, though. Man does it make fit-out easier. Not to mention overhauls. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 11:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Vance, The cone in consideration is in fact a motor room, with a golf cart motor inside for better air cooling. Also a compressor to finish blowing down the large volume tanks once surfaced, ventilation, and dehumidification equipment all housed. Contemplating all this for a shallow water (250' operational), 36 OD, about 18 - 20' length overall. Would the same tank fabricators give me internally flanged separating hull sections without sacrificing the kids first car? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 2:05:55 PM Joe, Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's which required a whole 'nother thought process. If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). Sort of a step-down, step-up option. The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sun Jan 5 19:51:36 2014 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 08:51:36 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: <1388903336.3691.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388903336.3691.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52C9FE18.5060505@archivale.com> Many ASME publications, including the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, are available on the BitTorrent network. Get a BitTorrent client like uTorrent and install it, then start searching. A good place to find technical material is btdigg.org. Marc de Piolenc On 1/5/2014 2:28 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Alec, > > It appears that the ASME texts are not so readily available for perusal > and come at significant cost. I think then that's its fair to say that > it is simply not important enough for me to consider further and just > stick with the template I have on hand, which is the K-350's end capped > cylinder, simple enough I should think. > > Thanks for the well described analysis, that alone is quite helpful. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: * Alec Smyth ; > *To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ; > *Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions > *Sent: * Sun, Jan 5, 2014 3:05:48 AM > > A transition from cylinder to cone is a major stress point, particularly > if we're speaking of the transition at the larger end of the cone. If > you visualize which way the plate on each side of the discontinuity will > flex under pressure, you will see they are rotating in opposite > directions around the point they are joined, and this means they will > try to "split open" the weld by increasing the angle at which they > intersect. I'm aware of three approaches to address the problem: > > 1 - Weld it as if it were a normal cylinder to endcap transition. This > of course will work, but the difficulty is determining up to what > pressure it will work. The standard math (e.g. ABS spreadsheet) will not > take the discontinuity into account. Stiffening the cone as if it were a > cylinder can limit the flexing of the cone, and I've seen diagrams of > stiffeners placed directly on the discontinuity. See for instance Figure > 1 on the ABS spreadsheet. > > 2 - Use a curved transition piece, similar to the knuckle of a regular > endcap. > > 3 - Use a forged ring for the transition piece. This puts a whole lot > more material at the discontinuity, since we're now talking a roughly > triangular section rather than plate. > > Obviously #2 and #3 are MUCH more expensive than #1 but will also get > you much deeper. I don't have any easy math to tell you how much, you > would want to do FEA on it for sure, whichever of the three approaches > you took. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Joe Perkel > wrote: > > Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is > accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint > reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle? > > The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the > pressure hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside. > > Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions? > > Thanks > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 21:08:15 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:08:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1388946834.17927.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1388974095.8298.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks gentlemen, for those informative responses.

I come away from this particular subject with a renewed perspective on my mission, which is a safe but fun boat for sport diving depths, day and night. So my mind remains open to various ideas. Hull transitions come into play in trying to shape the end product a bit more "boat like" while attempting to keep overall dimensions in check.

Thanks again!

Joe


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 21:08:16 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:08:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1388946834.17927.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1388974096.17565.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks gentlemen, for those informative responses.

I come away from this particular subject with a renewed perspective on my mission, which is a safe but fun boat for sport diving depths, day and night. So my mind remains open to various ideas. Hull transitions come into play in trying to shape the end product a bit more "boat like" while attempting to keep overall dimensions in check.

Thanks again!

Joe


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 21:08:18 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1388946834.17927.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks gentlemen, for those informative responses.

I come away from this particular subject with a renewed perspective on my mission, which is a safe but fun boat for sport diving depths, day and night. So my mind remains open to various ideas. Hull transitions come into play in trying to shape the end product a bit more "boat like" while attempting to keep overall dimensions in check.

Thanks again!

Joe


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 21:10:58 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:10:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: <52C9FE18.5060505@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1388974258.73206.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Marc,

That's an amazing file repository, I just bookmarked it, thanks!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Jan 5 21:15:56 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:15:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Transitions In-Reply-To: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388885670.91218.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52CA11DC.7080806@psubs.org> See ABS Rules for Underwater Vehicles, Section 6, Chapter 21. I agree with Hank, a hemi will probably give you the space you need and be much less complicated to engineer. Jon On 1/4/2014 8:34 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Busby is unclear as to how a transition from cylinder to cone is > accomplished (fabricated). Ala PC 14 for example. Is the weld joint > reinforced or is it simply an abrupt change in angle? > > The issue is relevant in an attempt to reduce volume within the > pressure hull where only machinery/equipment is intended to reside. > > Is there a text or diagram somewhere that covers such transitions? > > Thanks > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 07:30:16 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:30:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> David,

Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 7 08:33:56 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:33:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, There is a cone section for sale with a good picture on? psubs?.? That will give you an idea of how it was done.? I am not sure if the dia of the cone is still the dia of the hull.? You could ask the seller how far back from the cylinder it was cut off. Hank On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel ; To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2014 2:08:18 AM Thanks gentlemen, for those informative responses. I come away from this particular subject with a renewed perspective on my mission, which is a safe but fun boat for sport diving depths, day and night. So my mind remains open to various ideas. Hull transitions come into play in trying to shape the end product a bit more "boat like" while attempting to keep overall dimensions in check. Thanks again! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 6:33:54 PM Joe, A 36in hull dia will give you a 18in deep hemi.? That seems plenty of room for your motor etc.? I would go hemi and buy the kid a nice car.? I am wiring my motor etc today and am sure happy to be sitting comfortably in the back of gamma with the larger dia hull. Hank On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:04:13 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hmm. I have seen some bolted grain tanks and that sort of thing. I don't see why they couldn't do it the other way. Probably could, come to think of it. They handle big stuff so could probably do bolt patterns and surface machining as well. The problem for local shops would be to handle a structure that size, of course, and the tank fab people would be set up to do it already. I'll bet it isn't as expensive as you think. Maybe less than a used car, anyway, although it might not be much less, depending on the car. You'll learn to love bolted sections, though. Man does it make fit-out easier. Not to mention overhauls. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 11:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Vance, The cone in consideration is in fact a motor room, with a golf cart motor inside for better air cooling. Also a compressor to finish blowing down the large volume tanks once surfaced, ventilation, and dehumidification equipment all housed. Contemplating all this for a shallow water (250' operational), 36 OD, about 18 - 20' length overall. Would the same tank fabricators give me internally flanged separating hull sections without sacrificing the kids first car? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 2:05:55 PM Joe, Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's which required a whole 'nother thought process. If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). Sort of a step-down, step-up option. The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 7 09:28:30 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:28:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0D9CBDEC14CA5-CF8-2BA1B@webmail-d277.sysops.aol.com> That's the PC15 motor room section. It was cut precisely through the weld, and retains the 54" OD that it was built to. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 8:34 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Joe, There is a cone section for sale with a good picture on psubs . That will give you an idea of how it was done. I am not sure if the dia of the cone is still the dia of the hull. You could ask the seller how far back from the cylinder it was cut off. Hank On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2014 2:08:18 AM Thanks gentlemen, for those informative responses. I come away from this particular subject with a renewed perspective on my mission, which is a safe but fun boat for sport diving depths, day and night. So my mind remains open to various ideas. Hull transitions come into play in trying to shape the end product a bit more "boat like" while attempting to keep overall dimensions in check. Thanks again! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 6:33:54 PM Joe, A 36in hull dia will give you a 18in deep hemi. That seems plenty of room for your motor etc. I would go hemi and buy the kid a nice car. I am wiring my motor etc today and am sure happy to be sitting comfortably in the back of gamma with the larger dia hull. Hank On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:04:13 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hmm. I have seen some bolted grain tanks and that sort of thing. I don't see why they couldn't do it the other way. Probably could, come to think of it. They handle big stuff so could probably do bolt patterns and surface machining as well. The problem for local shops would be to handle a structure that size, of course, and the tank fab people would be set up to do it already. I'll bet it isn't as expensive as you think. Maybe less than a used car, anyway, although it might not be much less, depending on the car. You'll learn to love bolted sections, though. Man does it make fit-out easier. Not to mention overhauls. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 11:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Vance, The cone in consideration is in fact a motor room, with a golf cart motor inside for better air cooling. Also a compressor to finish blowing down the large volume tanks once surfaced, ventilation, and dehumidification equipment all housed. Contemplating all this for a shallow water (250' operational), 36 OD, about 18 - 20' length overall. Would the same tank fabricators give me internally flanged separating hull sections without sacrificing the kids first car? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Sent: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 2:05:55 PM Joe, Tank fabricators will do a cone with a pre-formed transition knuckle on order. It gives you a matched cylinder for your hull. The early Perry boats had that sort of thing, although they were fabricated in house and required a double weld (at the cylinder and between the knuckle and cone). Later, they stopped doing it. That would have added to the expense of fabricating a hull, and one supposes that the engineers figured out they didn't need it for the pressures in question. Everything they built was limited to the double-continental shelf standard (1200 feet or less) except for the 16's which required a whole 'nother thought process. If Cliff Redus gets back online, you can ask him. The R300 has long conical section(s) aft of the crew compartment, and Cliff is an engineer, so you have to figure he's been all through this. One other variation at Perry comes to mind, which is the 1202. The diver lock out section was 54" and the pressure hull was the standard 48" PC-12 size. The DLO has two short 48" OD cylindrical sections welded to the elliptical heads of the DLO with mating flanges for the motor room and crew compartment interface(s). Sort of a step-down, step-up option. The PC-18 class of DLO sub was an extension of that. They went to full length 54" OD hull for both compartments, ditched the motor room in favor of a pivoting 10hp thruster/rudder assembly aft, and got a shorter boat with roughly the same displacement overall. NOTE: Based on our experience, they also reduced the gas storage and battery pod length, effectively shortening mission endurance, but also shortening the boat about 7 feet and reducing crane weight by over 2 tons. Not a bad trade-off, and Intersub ran the hell out of the 18s, so it must have been a decent compromise. I have no experience with them, but the other pilots liked them a lot. Vance _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 09:30:31 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (seaquestor at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 06:30:31 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Message-ID: Hi Joe, the FEA model has it placed slightly toward the non cone side, but not any particular dimension. Primarily to stay away from the taper so to not add additional weld depth. Also, just to be clear, the ribs are on the outside the hull. We changed our design after seeing the presentation by Steve on the rework of his sub and a comment by Vance at the Psubs conference. That one change has opened the door to a better interior design that is not being predicated on rib spacing. It also means the a large number of design drawings are in the revision process. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 Joe Perkel wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Jan 7 14:09:40 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:09:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52CC50F4.2020703@psubs.org> Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. Jon On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 15:45:24 2014 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:45:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <52CC50F4.2020703@psubs.org> References: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52CC50F4.2020703@psubs.org> Message-ID: <52cc676b.64f7440a.3864.ffffc434@mx.google.com> Hi All, I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort. I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space. This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone. This survived an FEA analysis. The end of the cone is where my window was attached. This was a 48" shell . Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. Jon On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 16773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 16:02:35 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:02:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <52cc676b.64f7440a.3864.ffffc434@mx.google.com> References: <1388974098.2666.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389097816.16522.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389101636.89623.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52CC50F4.2020703@psubs.org> <52cc676b.64f7440a.3864.ffffc434@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Love it. In a way what Carsten did is similar to that too, making the "cone" as a series of conical steps so the angles are smaller at each inflection point. Alec On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized > stiffener there of some sort. I could not afford the room as an intrusion > of internal space. > > This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is > 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone. This survived an FEA > analysis. The end of the cone is where my window was attached. > > This was a 48? shell . Regards, Hugh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Jon Wallace > *Sent:* Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m. > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions > > > > > Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy > stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of > cone-to-cylinder transition. > > The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to > it. > > Jon > > > > On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel > wrote: > > David, > > Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 16773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Jan 7 16:45:48 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:45:48 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Message-ID: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> Would the same apply to a cylinder to sphere transition?? On mine I'm planning on a 1" thick collar welded to the sphere then the cylinder to that . brian -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 12:45:24 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitionsHi All,? I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort.? I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space.This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone.? This survived an FEA analysis.? The end of the cone is where my window was attached.This was a 48? shell? .? Regards,? Hugh??????From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon WallaceSent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m.To: Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions? Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. JonOn Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote:David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 16:51:03 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:51:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1389131463.7238.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Interesting Hugh thank you.

In the end both Hank and Jon are correct in that for the 36" OD hull the point is quite moot. Still, a very interesting subject and some valuable references gained.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 16773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 17:23:25 2014 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:23:25 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <52cc7e60.68f2440a.1c82.ffffe658@mx.google.com> Brian, Not if the sphere is a hemisphere. If it is a lesser part of a sphere then it depends on the angle of joining. Theoretically the sphere would only need to be half the thickness of the shell. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of brian Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:46 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Would the same apply to a cylinder to sphere transition? On mine I'm planning on a 1" thick collar welded to the sphere then the cylinder to that . brian -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 12:45:24 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Hi All, I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort. I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space. This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone. This survived an FEA analysis. The end of the cone is where my window was attached. This was a 48? shell . Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. Jon On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9261 (20140107) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 7 19:29:55 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:29:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <8D0DA1FE35AFBE5-2694-2DA9C@webmail-d271.sysops.aol.com> Wouldn't you figure that like an ASME nozzle--like a conning tower? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Would the same apply to a cylinder to sphere transition? On mine I'm planning on a 1" thick collar welded to the sphere then the cylinder to that . brian -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 12:45:24 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Hi All, I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort. I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space. This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone. This survived an FEA analysis. The end of the cone is where my window was attached. This was a 48? shell . Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. Jon On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 19:51:17 2014 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:51:17 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions In-Reply-To: <8D0DA1FE35AFBE5-2694-2DA9C@webmail-d271.sysops.aol.com> References: <201401071345742.SM08784@[66.162.33.185]> <8D0DA1FE35AFBE5-2694-2DA9C@webmail-d271.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52cca106.25e3440a.5789.44f1@mx.google.com> I think I missed the point thinking the sphere end was part of the Hull. What Vance is saying is like a leg tube into a sphere where he is quite correct. Sorry missed the point. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 1:30 p.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Wouldn't you figure that like an ASME nozzle--like a conning tower? Vance -----Original Message----- From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Would the same apply to a cylinder to sphere transition? On mine I'm planning on a 1" thick collar welded to the sphere then the cylinder to that . brian -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 12:45:24 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Hi All, I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort. I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space. This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone. This survived an FEA analysis. The end of the cone is where my window was attached. This was a 48? shell . Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. Jon On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9262 (20140107) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 21:04:18 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 21:04:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email woes Message-ID: Aside from multiple repetitions, it would seem about 1 in about 6 of my responses are lost completely. My apologies for unintentional detachment. Joe From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Wed Jan 8 02:02:48 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 07:02:48 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions Message-ID: <201401072302476.SM00228@[66.162.33.185]> What I was concerned about was the cylinder, I have ribs every 12", where the cylinder meets the sphere (at the end of the cylinder) I guess I need a rib as close to that weld as practical.? Seems like the 1" thick "nozzel" would serve the same purpose as the rib.? -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 2:23:25 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitionsBrian,Not if the sphere is a hemisphere.? If it is a lesser part of a sphere then it depends on the angle of joining.? Theoretically the sphere would only need to be half the thickness of the shell.? ???From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of brianSent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:46 a.m.To: Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions?Would the same apply to a cylinder to sphere transition?? On mine I'm planning on a 1" thick collar welded to the sphere then the cylinder to that . brian -----Original Message----- From: "Hugh Fulton" Sent 1/7/2014 12:45:24 PM To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitionsHi All,? I have been through that problem and you have to have a good sized stiffener there of some sort.? I could not afford the room as an intrusion of internal space.This is the solution and the angle of the additional reinforcing cone is 22.5 degrees being half the 45 degrees of the cone.? This survived an FEA analysis.? The end of the cone is where my window was attached.This was a 48? shell? .? Regards,? Hugh??????From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon WallaceSent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:10 a.m.To: Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical transitions? Joe, ABS says stiffened cones are to have their ends bounded by two heavy stiffeners each located as close as possible to the point of cone-to-cylinder transition. The stiffener is not located on the weld line but as close as possible to it. JonOn Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:30:16 AM, Joe Perkel wrote:David, Is that T ring directly on the weld line, or offset any distance? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9257 (20140106) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9261 (20140107) __________?The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.?http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 9261 (20140107) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:37:02 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Message-ID: <1389397022.97508.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". ? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. ? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. ? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. ? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. ? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. ? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. ? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. ? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. ? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. ? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. ? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. ? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% ? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. ? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. ? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From proair2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 22:22:03 2014 From: proair2000 at yahoo.com (anthony parker) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:22:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389410523.48448.YahooMailNeo@web185001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> then i'm special too, because i have been receiving the same thing some times 5 or more of the same email ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 3, 2014 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness ?Hey Pete, You must just be special; I'm only receiving one copy of each email. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sat Jan 11 00:54:00 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:54:00 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness In-Reply-To: <1389410523.48448.YahooMailNeo@web185001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0D6F181F5B2DB-1EC0-141B4@webmail-va021.sysops.aol.com> <1389410523.48448.YahooMailNeo@web185001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52D0DC78.6070606@psubs.org> I've noticed my multiple copies have ceased. On 1/10/2014 10:22 PM, anthony parker wrote: > then i'm special too, because i have been receiving the same thing > some times 5 or more of the same email > > *From:* "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Friday, January 3, 2014 6:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness > > Hey Pete, > You must just be special; I'm only receiving one copy of each email. > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Niedermayr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 5:12 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Email weirdness > > Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same message > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 11 14:51:15 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:51:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Message-ID: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From k6fee at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 15:11:15 2014 From: k6fee at yahoo.com (keith tollett) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:11:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389471075.711.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, What grit and method of sanding an polishing did you use on the windows? If you could do a quick tutorial,I at the very least, would find it very helpful. Thanks Keith On Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:53 AM, hank pronk wrote: Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 11 15:27:55 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:27:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <1389471075.711.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389471075.711.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389472075.74991.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Keith, On windows that were just lightly scratched, I sanded with 600 grit with water then 1500 grit.? It only took two sanding steps.? When there were deeper scratches, I wet sanded with 400 grit then 600, and finished with 1500 grit.? When I had to remove gouges that you would think impossible, I started with 220 grit and then 400 then 600 and finished with 1500?grit and always wet of coarse.? I polished with 3M 05937 compound in one step with a very smooth pad.? I started polishing with a more coarse compound? but found the fine stuff worked in one step.? I polished the windows in a fixture so they did not move around and I could flip the windows over quickly and often to avoid building up heat.? The windows stayed cool with no trouble.? Hank On Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:11:15 PM, keith tollett wrote: Hank, What grit and method of sanding an polishing did you use on the windows? If you could do a quick tutorial,I at the very least, would find it very helpful. Thanks Keith On Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:53 AM, hank pronk wrote: Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Jan 11 15:47:10 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:47:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389469875.14904.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DD256EF1E8A1-1E54-4C647@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> Sounds great, Hank. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:51 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma. I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy. It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went. I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Jan 11 15:59:37 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:59:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389397022.97508.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389397022.97508.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DD272C2D6070-AF4-4D241@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 16:00:09 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:00:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <8D0DD256EF1E8A1-1E54-4C647@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389474009.94534.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.
Hank"

Sir, I'd like to place an order for menu item # 1, a manned submersible combo with a side of batteries! To go of course!

Truly an impressive turnaround time Hank! Phenomenal achievement, I hope you enjoy it immensely!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 11 16:11:36 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <1389474009.94534.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0DD256EF1E8A1-1E54-4C647@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> <1389474009.94534.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389474696.93934.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Thanks',? this was a big effort that took? aprox? 500 hr?of work and two trips to the emergency.? I am just lucky that my business allows me so much free time or it would? take years. Hank On Saturday, January 11, 2014 2:00:09 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: "The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week. Hank" Sir, I'd like to place an order for menu item # 1, a manned submersible combo with a side of batteries! To go of course! Truly an impressive turnaround time Hank! Phenomenal achievement, I hope you enjoy it immensely! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Sent: Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:47:10 PM Sounds great, Hank. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:51 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From k6fee at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 18:48:29 2014 From: k6fee at yahoo.com (k6fee at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:48:29 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Message-ID: <0hfwtcd38mj06d14hto342wc.1389484061280@email.android.com> Hi Hank, Thanks for the great info on window cleaning!! Keith hank pronk wrote: >Hi Keith, >On windows that were just lightly scratched, I sanded with 600 grit with water then 1500 grit.? It only took two sanding steps.? When there were deeper scratches, I wet sanded with 400 grit then 600, and finished with 1500 grit.? When I had to remove gouges that you would think impossible, I started with 220 grit and then 400 then 600 and finished with 1500?grit and always wet of coarse.? I polished with 3M 05937 compound in one step with a very smooth pad.? I started polishing with a more coarse compound? but found the fine stuff worked in one step.? I polished the windows in a fixture so they did not move around and I could flip the windows over quickly and often to avoid building up heat.? The windows stayed cool with no trouble.? >Hank > > > > >On Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:11:15 PM, keith tollett wrote: > >Hank, > >What grit and method of sanding an polishing did you use on the windows? If you could do a quick tutorial,I at the very least, would find it very helpful. > >Thanks > >Keith > > > > > >On Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:53 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. >The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Jan 11 20:16:59 2014 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 01:16:59 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Message-ID: <201401111716414.SM00228@[66.162.33.185]> Hank,??? Did you use a motorized sander? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 1/11/2014 12:27:55 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windowsHi Keith,On windows that were just lightly scratched, I sanded with 600 grit with water then 1500 grit.? It only took two sanding steps.? When there were deeper scratches, I wet sanded with 400 grit then 600, and finished with 1500 grit.? When I had to remove gouges that you would think impossible, I started with 220 grit and then 400 then 600 and finished with 1500?grit and always wet of coarse.? I polished with 3M 05937 compound in one step with a very smooth pad.? I started polishing with a more coarse compound? but found the fine stuff worked in one step.? I polished the windows in a fixture so they did not move around and I could flip the windows over quickly and often to avoid building up heat.? The windows stayed cool with no trouble.? Hank On Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:11:15 PM, keith tollett wrote:Hank, What grit and method of sanding an polishing did you use on the windows? If you could do a quick tutorial,I at the very least, would find it very helpful. Thanks Keith On Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:53 AM, hank pronk wrote:Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep.The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 02:22:53 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 23:22:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows In-Reply-To: <201401111716414.SM00228@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201401111716414.SM00228@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1389511373.86073.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, No I used the old fashioned elbow grease.? It only takes about 5 to 10 min to sand them out. Hank On Saturday, January 11, 2014 6:16:59 PM, brian wrote: Hank,??? Did you use a motorized sander? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 1/11/2014 12:27:55 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sanded and polished windows Hi Keith, On windows that were just lightly scratched, I sanded with 600 grit with water then 1500 grit.? It only took two sanding steps.? When there were deeper scratches, I wet sanded with 400 grit then 600, and finished with 1500 grit.? When I had to remove gouges that you would think impossible, I started with 220 grit and then 400 then 600 and finished with 1500?grit and always wet of coarse.? I polished with 3M 05937 compound in one step with a very smooth pad.? I started polishing with a more coarse compound? but found the fine stuff worked in one step.? I polished the windows in a fixture so they did not move around and I could flip the windows over quickly and often to avoid building up heat.? The windows stayed cool with no trouble.? Hank On Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:11:15 PM, keith tollett wrote: Hank, What grit and method of sanding an polishing did you use on the windows? If you could do a quick tutorial,I at the very least, would find it very helpful. Thanks Keith On Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:53 AM, hank pronk wrote: Today I sanded and polished the windows for Gamma.? I ended up doing it myself because my guy is busy.? It work out great and I am surprised how easy and fast it went.? I even managed to remove some gouges about .040 deep. The sub was painted yesterday and will be dive ready by the end of the week.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 04:20:37 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:20:37 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DD272C2D6070-AF4-4D241@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389397022.97508.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DD272C2D6070-AF4-4D241@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? > Best regards, > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James > To: psubs.org > Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > Hi all, > This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. > It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". > All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. > It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. > The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. > Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. > All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. > Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. > The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. > Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off > valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. > The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. > Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. > Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. > Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in > buoyancy plus 10% > Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. > The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum > inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. > The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. > Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 07:18:04 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 04:18:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan,

I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity?

On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Jan 12 09:27:10 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:27:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 09:39:03 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:39:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 10:11:42 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:11:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 10:30:38 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:30:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov.? The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning.? We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral.? When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time.? I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded.?? It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 10:34:28 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:34:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389540868.21617.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Just a note, I have for some reason the dive procedure for Delta that stays with the sub.? Delta's dive procedure says to dive 15lbs negative buoyant. On , hank pronk wrote: Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov.? The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning.? We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral.? When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time.? I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded.?? It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 11:20:03 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:20:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDC948370168-AA8-5325D@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> Roger that. Yeah, the variable loads you were dealing with definitely made things more complex. Our problem was getting the hell off the surface as quickly as possible and out of the surge. I've got some film somewhere of me diving a 12-boat about twenty feet of Beryl Alpha (500,000 ton concrete platform in the North Sea). In twelve foot seas!!! The wave surge against the platform ledge was probably nearly twenty feet. What you want to do in that case is get deep, and be quick about it. Different parameters than you had. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 10:31 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov. The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning. We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral. When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time. I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded. It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 11:22:15 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:22:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389540868.21617.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389540868.21617.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDC996A9F05E-AA8-5327A@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> Sounds about right. If you have a long way to go once submerged, just rack the rudder over, goose the throttle, and ride her down the dive plane in a tight little spiral. That ought to give the gyro compass something to think about! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 10:35 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Just a note, I have for some reason the dive procedure for Delta that stays with the sub. Delta's dive procedure says to dive 15lbs negative buoyant. On , hank pronk wrote: Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov. The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning. We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral. When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time. I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded. It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 11:29:37 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:29:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DDC996A9F05E-AA8-5327A@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389540868.21617.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDC996A9F05E-AA8-5327A@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389544177.57033.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, That is really something, must have been hair raising.? That separates the men from the boys Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:22:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Sounds about right. If you have a long way to go once submerged, just rack the rudder over, goose the throttle, and ride her down the dive plane in a tight little spiral. That ought to give the gyro compass something to think about! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 10:35 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Just a note, I have for some reason the dive procedure for Delta that stays with the sub.? Delta's dive procedure says to dive 15lbs negative buoyant. On , hank pronk wrote: Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov.? The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning.? We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral.? When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time.? I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded.?? It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 11:30:27 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:30:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance, ? I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat. ? However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either continuously having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever. ? How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant?forward motion on the dive plane? ? I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, isn't very?fine buoyancy control a must then? ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 11:34:01 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:34:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389544177.57033.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389540638.5442.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389540868.21617.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDC996A9F05E-AA8-5327A@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <1389544177.57033.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDCB3BDC1441-1DC0-52FE4@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com> The real men are the ones who could pretend it wasn't a big deal, and do it with a straight face. Then drink their after dive whiskey without spilling a drop. It helped to be stone cold crazy, which we were. Scary, yes. But damn it was fun!!! -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 11:30 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, That is really something, must have been hair raising. That separates the men from the boys Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:22:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Sounds about right. If you have a long way to go once submerged, just rack the rudder over, goose the throttle, and ride her down the dive plane in a tight little spiral. That ought to give the gyro compass something to think about! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 10:35 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Just a note, I have for some reason the dive procedure for Delta that stays with the sub. Delta's dive procedure says to dive 15lbs negative buoyant. On , hank pronk wrote: Vance, Most of my experience comes from my log salvage rov. The rov lifted logs with two mbt's and I had some crazy runaways in the beginning. We had to put buoyancy tanks on the rov to get it closer to neutral. When the rov was closer to neutral it was okay to control but it sank slower costing us cycle time. I guess the key here is to start with a sub that is fairly close to neutral when you start your dive with mbt's flooded. It will be fun to figure out and I will be alone on the lake so no risk of hitting an onlooker. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:12:04 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 11:38:38 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:38:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDCBE0DB7E50-1DC0-53026@webmail-m278.sysops.aol.com> You'll have thrusters for hovering adjustments, yes? That will help. But you are right. You need to be very close on the trim--as in spot on. Otherwise you spend all your time fiddling with things instead of taking pictures of mermaids. Remember, however, that even a small sub has a lot more mass than you do as a swimmer. That makes a difference in the RATE of change, so you have more time for adjustments. Whether you are using a bubble or a VBT or both, neutral is what you want (unless you are diving positive with a thruster offset, which is the same thing, only different). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 11:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat. However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either continuously having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever. How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant forward motion on the dive plane? I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, isn't very fine buoyancy control a must then? Joe From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 12 11:57:12 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:57:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389545832.42058.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, My little yellow sub has a 3 litre vbt and it worked perfect in the test pool.? that is all you need for getting it perfect.? When I did my life support test in the pool, I had it neutral for at least 15 min.? that is according to my friend that was monitoring and recording everything.? I couldn't really tell because I had no reference, I just took directions.? I would design for a small tank just in case you find you need it.? Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:33:37 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, ? I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat. ? However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either continuously having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever. ? How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant?forward motion on the dive plane? ? I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, isn't very?fine buoyancy control a must then? ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 14:02:05 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389545832.42058.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389545832.42058.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389553325.32705.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? I'm looking over a variation of something?Jim said for solo compensation. ? Picture James Frankland's boat with the floorboard in section. Assuming at least a 3 - 4" space, either a water tank/bladder or soft weight belts/bags handed down the hatch does the trick nicely. ? Alvin Jr. is going to have external ribs and a single centerline battery box. This space under the floor-board?at 4" x 72" yields 4500 Cubic inches.?The sub?will also have two dedicated infinitely variable vertical thrusters. ? Vance's comments about mass drives home Alec's previous comments about the VBT?and make sense to me?now. I'm going to ixnay the VBT in favor?of a closely monitored?weight and fine vertical thrust profile. ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Joe, My little yellow sub has a 3 litre vbt and it worked perfect in the test pool.? that is all you need for getting it perfect.? When I did my life support test in the pool, I had it neutral for at least 15 min.? that is according to my friend that was monitoring and recording everything.? I couldn't really tell because I had no reference, I just took directions.? I would design for a small tank just in case you find you need it.? Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:33:37 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, ? I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat. ? However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either continuously having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever. ? How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant?forward motion on the dive plane? ? I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, isn't very?fine buoyancy control a must then? ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Jan 12 14:26:28 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:26:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389553325.32705.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389544227.79790.YahooMailNeo@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389545832.42058.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389553325.32705.YahooMailNeo@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DDE353A7201C-AF4-53F4D@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Hank, et al, The preliminary size for the fore/aft VBTs is 12 liters each or 26 lb of buoyancy each. One reason for this is if I pick up a load with the arm, I can compensate for the load to that extent. On the other hand I could plumb for VBTs but not install them until I've done some test dives and see how it goes without VBTs. The tanks could end up being smaller, and they don't have to both be the same size. Lead is about 11 times the density of sea water, so it doesn't take up nearly as much room. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank, I'm looking over a variation of something Jim said for solo compensation. Picture James Frankland's boat with the floorboard in section. Assuming at least a 3 - 4" space, either a water tank/bladder or soft weight belts/bags handed down the hatch does the trick nicely. Alvin Jr. is going to have external ribs and a single centerline battery box. This space under the floor-board at 4" x 72" yields 4500 Cubic inches. The sub will also have two dedicated infinitely variable vertical thrusters. Vance's comments about mass drives home Alec's previous comments about the VBT and make sense to me now. I'm going to ixnay the VBT in favor of a closely monitored weight and fine vertical thrust profile. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Joe, My little yellow sub has a 3 litre vbt and it worked perfect in the test pool. that is all you need for getting it perfect. When I did my life support test in the pool, I had it neutral for at least 15 min. that is according to my friend that was monitoring and recording everything. I couldn't really tell because I had no reference, I just took directions. I would design for a small tank just in case you find you need it. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:33:37 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat. However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either continuously having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever. How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant forward motion on the dive plane? I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, isn't very fine buoyancy control a must then? Joe From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 16:31:53 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389562313.79137.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Joe, It says in section 7 D 4.1... "The capacity of compensating tanks has to be big enough to compensate for all the changes in buoyancy expected to arise during the planned diving duties plus a? reserve capacity of at least 10%. I presume you could use the compensating tanks as a supplement to adjusting buoyancy with weights. ? ?I wonder how those tourist subs get on with fifty people of differing weights who aren't weighed before hand. And what about the trim? "Excuse me madam could you move to the front of the submarine & swap seats with that skinny gentleman". Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 18:16:24 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:16:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance, I thought I'd heard that the Deep Workers had a plastic compensating tank under the seat. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 12 19:32:08 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming In-Reply-To: <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DE0E0699F347-1B18-556D2@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> They did at one time use a snowmobile seat/gas tank combo to serve both purposes. I think that has gone by the wayside in favor of a small tank under the hull to get the acrylic dome high enough for the pilot to see and maneuver when on the surface. Perhaps it's an optional thing. I'm not sure. They've built a couple of dozen subs by now with the Russian DW-3000s, and there are probably some evolutionary differences between the early models and the later ones. I do think the seat deal was ingenious, and could well serve along with a hand pump as an upgrade for a new build or even a re-build K-sub in lieu of George's heavy trim tank. Having said that, maybe the hand pump is too slow or something. I have no direct experience with them. We'll just have to ask Phil for clarification when he gets time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, I thought I'd heard that the Deep Workers had a plastic compensating tank under the seat. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 20:41:03 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 17:41:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system In-Reply-To: <8D0DE0E0699F347-1B18-556D2@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DE0E0699F347-1B18-556D2@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389577263.80388.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, I found this description of their system, but not sure if its correct or what? the "colored water" is all about. DeepWorker uses soft ballast together with another ballast system known as ?hard? ballast. In the hard ballast system, colored water is contained within an enclosed small bladder outside the sub. After the pilot dumps all the air from the soft ballast tank in order to lower the sub below the surface, the sub remains slightly buoyant. To sink, the pilot opens a valve to allow a small amount of the colored water into the sub, which adds weight. The water begins to fill a tank in the pilot?s seat, and the sub descends. When the sub is neutrally buoyant (neither sinking nor rising), the pilot shuts off the valve. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming They did at one time use a snowmobile seat/gas tank combo to serve both purposes. I think that has gone by the wayside in favor of a small tank under the hull to get the acrylic dome high enough for the pilot to see and maneuver when on the surface. Perhaps it's an optional thing. I'm not sure. They've built a couple of dozen subs by now with the Russian DW-3000s, and there are probably some evolutionary differences between the early models and the later ones. I do think the seat deal was ingenious, and could well serve along with a hand pump as an upgrade for a new build or even a re-build K-sub in lieu of George's heavy trim tank. Having said that, maybe the hand pump is too slow or something. I have no direct experience with them. ?We'll just have to ask Phil for clarification when he gets time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, I thought I'd heard that the Deep Workers had a plastic compensating tank under the seat. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability?in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far?for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well? as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ? ?This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.??What all does?"compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >? ?All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim?requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >? ?It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >? ?The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >? ?Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >? ?All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped?together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >? ?Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >? ?The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >? ?Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >? ?The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >? ?Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >? ?Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up?bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >? ?Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >? ?Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >? ?The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum? >inflow / outflow?and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >? ?The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 00:44:19 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:44:19 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Message-ID: Hi guys, I've been searching the database looking for a discussion on the best choice of a compass for use in my submersible. I looking for dash mount, limited to 3" dia. My tablet will provide headings while on the surface, but not so much under water. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Jan 13 11:55:08 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:55:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0DE97596F201F-1BC-56C2B@webmail-d167.sysops.aol.com> David, Are the headings per your tablet from GPS coupled with inertial input? Jim -----Original Message----- From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 11:45 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Hi guys, I've been searching the database looking for a discussion on the best choice of a compass for use in my submersible. I looking for dash mount, limited to 3" dia. My tablet will provide headings while on the surface, but not so much under water. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 12:10:49 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:10:49 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <8D0DE97596F201F-1BC-56C2B@webmail-d167.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0DE97596F201F-1BC-56C2B@webmail-d167.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, when we were at the convention, I had downloaded Nav charts and installed them onto a program I have on my nexus tablet which has a GPS system. I was able to not only able to navigate around the shallow coral heads on our way to conch reef, I was able to set way points and see lat long positions and speed. The other software provides compass headings. Not sure if that program is using GPS and inertial sensors. Most likely though. On Jan 13, 2014 8:56 AM, wrote: > David, > Are the headings per your tablet from GPS coupled with inertial input? > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: David Colombo > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 11:45 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice > > Hi guys, I've been searching the database looking for a discussion on > the best choice of a compass for use in my submersible. I looking for dash > mount, limited to 3" dia. My tablet will provide headings while on the > surface, but not so much under water. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 12:18:40 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:18:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1389633520.47445.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> David,

Here's an electric directional gyro for $1,300. Cute one too!

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ssp-10-05077.php?clickkey=88319

Joe



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Mon Jan 13 12:30:35 2014 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:30:35 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I am fine with a Raymarine fluxgate compass with rhe sensor mounted in the mast or (nonferro) bow compartment. The sensor http://www.raymarine-shop.nl/Raymarine-electronisch-kompas-instrument-fluxga te/Raymarine-Fluxgate-kompas-gever-M81190 Needs just a very small pressure tight Alu housing. Regards, Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens David Colombo Verzonden: maandag 13 januari 2014 6:44 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Hi guys, I've been searching the database looking for a discussion on the best choice of a compass for use in my submersible. I looking for dash mount, limited to 3" dia. My tablet will provide headings while on the surface, but not so much under water. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 18:14:49 2014 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:14:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1389654889.63457.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'll have to put one in my winkelwagen ! -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 1/13/14, Emile van Essen wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Monday, January 13, 2014, 9:30 AM David, ? I am fine with a Raymarine fluxgate compass with rhe sensor mounted in the mast or (nonferro) bow compartment. The sensor http://www.raymarine-shop.nl/Raymarine-electronisch-kompas-instrument-fluxgate/Raymarine-Fluxgate-kompas-gever-M81190 Needs just a very small pressure tight Alu housing. ? Regards, Emile ? Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens David Colombo Verzonden: maandag 13 januari 2014 6:44 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice ? Hi guys, I've been searching the database looking ?for a discussion on the best choice of a compass for use in my?submersible.? I looking for dash mount, limited to 3" dia. My tablet will provide headings while on the surface, but not so much under water. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 18:52:12 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:52:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion Message-ID: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field?

For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 13 19:05:48 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:05:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears.? Hank On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 19:19:10 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:19:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D3F7CA0-25B3-4E66-80DC-B61F06DE56B3@yahoo.com> Perfect Hank, thanks! Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:05 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? > > For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 19:53:38 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:53:38 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Joe, if you look in the Stachiw book on acrylic you'll see that light is distorted as it moves through acrylic, & the longer it travels through it the more distortion. So looking straight through a thin section, not so bad, but looking through the curves formed in an object made of acrylic would give more distortion. The impact resistance would be a problem for a ballast tank. When forming a rounded shape from acrylic there is a thinning at the apex. For a blown hemisphere dome the thickness at the apex is about a 3rd of the original sheet thickness. So you would have to start with a relatively thick sheet. You would have to connect it to the hull, & this would be a problem as these connections would be stress points that could produce cracking. Hope that's thrown cold water on the idea. (sorry can't find smiley button on ipad) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/01/2014, at 1:05 pm, hank pronk wrote: > > Joe, > If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? > > For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Mon Jan 13 20:09:30 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:09:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the Arduino UNO. The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped producing them. There are others however but probably more expensive. The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). Jon From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Jan 13 20:40:29 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:40:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0DEE0BDC33894-2600-5D504@webmail-m155.sysops.aol.com> Pretty much zero distortion with water on both sides if the acrylic is properly formed. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: [ No Name ] Sent: Mon, Jan 13, 2014 6:53 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 22:02:53 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:02:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I don't have that text yet, every time I think to buy one I get a weeks worth of groceries instead! :) Joe On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Alan wrote: > Joe, > if you look in the Stachiw book on acrylic you'll see that light is distorted > as it moves through acrylic, & the longer it travels through it the more distortion. > So looking straight through a thin section, not so bad, but looking through > the curves formed in an object made of acrylic would give more distortion. > The impact resistance would be a problem for a ballast tank. When > forming a rounded shape from acrylic there is a thinning at the apex. > For a blown hemisphere dome the thickness at the apex is about a 3rd of the > original sheet thickness. So you would have to start with a relatively thick sheet. > You would have to connect it to the hull, & this would be a problem as these > connections would be stress points that could produce cracking. > Hope that's thrown cold water on the idea. (sorry can't find smiley button on ipad) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/01/2014, at 1:05 pm, hank pronk wrote: > >> Joe, >> If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? >> >> For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 22:25:10 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389669910.34150.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, it is do-able if you stick to a basic shape.? You could blow 2 ellipticle hemispheres & join them at the flanges & mount them under a frame that extends from the hull. Greg's the best person for advice on this. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion Alan, I don't have that text yet, every time I think to buy one I get a weeks worth of groceries instead! :) ?Joe On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Alan wrote: Joe, if you look in the Stachiw book on acrylic you'll see that light is distorted as it moves through acrylic, & the longer it travels through it the more distortion. So looking straight through a thin section, not so bad, but looking through? the curves formed in an object made of acrylic would give more distortion. The impact resistance would be a problem for a ballast tank. When? forming a rounded shape from acrylic there is a thinning at the apex.? For a blown hemisphere dome the thickness at the apex is about a 3rd of the? original sheet thickness. So you would have to start with a relatively thick sheet. You would have to connect it to the hull, & this would be a problem as these connections would be stress points that could produce cracking. Hope that's thrown cold water on the idea. (sorry can't find smiley button on ipad) Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/01/2014, at 1:05 pm, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears.? >Hank > > > >On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? > >For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 22:45:47 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:45:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> References: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Jon, I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications & has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive. http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do, but may be forced down this path.? Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the Arduino UNO.? The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped producing them.? There are others however but probably more expensive.? The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 22:50:39 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:50:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion In-Reply-To: <1389669910.34150.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389657132.27387.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389657948.3821.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1389669910.34150.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D1AC592-25B6-477A-AF99-FB6864454DDE@yahoo.com> Very basic Alan. I was thinking along the lines of flat slabs like Nekton. Joe On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi Joe, > it is do-able if you stick to a basic shape. > You could blow 2 ellipticle hemispheres & join them at the flanges & > mount them under a frame that extends from the hull. > Greg's the best person for advice on this. > Alan > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic & distortion > > Alan, > > I don't have that text yet, every time I think to buy one I get a weeks worth of groceries instead! :) > > Joe > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Alan wrote: > > > Joe, > if you look in the Stachiw book on acrylic you'll see that light is distorted > as it moves through acrylic, & the longer it travels through it the more distortion. > So looking straight through a thin section, not so bad, but looking through > the curves formed in an object made of acrylic would give more distortion. > The impact resistance would be a problem for a ballast tank. When > forming a rounded shape from acrylic there is a thinning at the apex. > For a blown hemisphere dome the thickness at the apex is about a 3rd of the > original sheet thickness. So you would have to start with a relatively thick sheet. > You would have to connect it to the hull, & this would be a problem as these > connections would be stress points that could produce cracking. > Hope that's thrown cold water on the idea. (sorry can't find smiley button on ipad) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/01/2014, at 1:05 pm, hank pronk wrote: > >> Joe, >> If the acrylic is wet on both sides it disappears. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> What can I get away with as far as transparent see thru panels and not horribly distort the visual field? >> >> For example, large transparent panels that double as MBT shell. Any rules of thumb, curvature direction, compound curves vs developable surfaces, etc? >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 22:59:56 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:59:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice find Alan. I'm going to spend some time looking over that site. I have to admit though, I feel the same as you in terms of not wanting to run my compass off a computer. To me, computers should be benefitted from but not relied upon unconditionally. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi Jon, > I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for > marine applications > & has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking > attractive. > http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html > It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't > want to do, > but may be forced down this path. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jon Wallace > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice > > > A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis > accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the > Arduino UNO. The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped > producing them. There are others however but probably more expensive. > The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Mon Jan 6 23:29:51 2014 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 20:29:51 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system In-Reply-To: <1389577263.80388.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DE0E0699F347-1B18-556D2@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> <1389577263.80388.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F9DAC9BD21B4E46A6538A29C8FB6510@PhillPC> Hi, Guys! Happy New Year y?all Re: Seat VBT: The system was one we (Nuytco) used in the earliest DeepWorker model subs ? starting around ?97. The seats were black, roto-cast plastic designed for use on/in snowmobiles, home-built race cars, dune buggies and the like ? and they were hollow. We came up with the idea of using them as a VBT that could be very precisely trimmed immediately pre-dive and could be easily changed (made heavier or lighter) during the dive. The seat was drilled and tapped for an inlet and outlet line. The water inlet line/hose had a needle valve on the inside of the hull at a convenient spot for the pilot to reach. The outlet line/hose led to a simple, manually-operated hydraulic hand pump and from there to a second on/off valve in front of a non-return valve plumbed through a hull penetrator. To use, the DW was trimmed to be buoyant with the seat empty. while the pilot was floating on the surface and the load line cast off, he opened the inlet valve to allow water into the seat until the dome went under and then the inlet valve was then shut off. This made the hull slightly negative and it would sink slowly, or faster with additional down thrusting. This, for pilots who like to dive a bit heavy. To lighten up, the outlet valve is opened and the water pumped out until the sub became buoyant ? just a few strokes, usually. We did try using a heavy duty plastic bag full of fresh water attached to the inlet side to avoid the plankton and assorted little critters when diving in sea water ? but we wound up just flushing the seat tank with fresh, soapy water after an ocean dive and that worked fine. All and all, a pretty neat systems except for a few downsides: Ambient water is pretty cold at depth and chills the butt and back ? and, you have to studiously remember to shut the inlet valve, particularly at any appreciable depth, because even with a needle valve the water comes in fast. We had a hole in the top of the seat as an over-flow and sometimes got sprayed by the overflow if something distracted you while allowing water in, and a few other minor things. At the time we had this system in place, we were training a bunch ( (40 ? 50) scientists as DW pilots over a two year period ? the experienced pilots had no problem with the seat VBT but we figured it was just too many things going on for new trainees, and so reverted to a conventional nylon box with holes in the bottom as the VBT, and that?s what we use today. Speaking of which, we brought a couple of DW?s back from a series of science dives in California, a month or so ago ? after a few days in the shop one the DWs developed an extreme case of ?body odor? - turned out to be a squid decomposing in the VBT! Finally, colored water ?? We don?t have any colored water in any of our sub models . . well, that?s not quite true, I guess. We do have our handy-dandy, always reliable MRE?s! Yup, yet another acronym ? in this case, short for ?MISSION RANGE EXTENDERS? ? a wide mouth, screw-top plastic bottle that holds about a quart or a little more. We sometimes use two, one full of, say, apple juice and the other one empty. The idea is to pass the full one through you to the empty MRE ? and make sure you don?t get mixed up! Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:41 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system Thanks Vance, I found this description of their system, but not sure if its correct or what the "colored water" is all about. DeepWorker uses soft ballast together with another ballast system known as ?hard? ballast. In the hard ballast system, colored water is contained within an enclosed small bladder outside the sub. After the pilot dumps all the air from the soft ballast tank in order to lower the sub below the surface, the sub remains slightly buoyant. To sink, the pilot opens a valve to allow a small amount of the colored water into the sub, which adds weight. The water begins to fill a tank in the pilot?s seat, and the sub descends. When the sub is neutrally buoyant (neither sinking nor rising), the pilot shuts off the valve. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming They did at one time use a snowmobile seat/gas tank combo to serve both purposes. I think that has gone by the wayside in favor of a small tank under the hull to get the acrylic dome high enough for the pilot to see and maneuver when on the surface. Perhaps it's an optional thing. I'm not sure. They've built a couple of dozen subs by now with the Russian DW-3000s, and there are probably some evolutionary differences between the early models and the later ones. I do think the seat deal was ingenious, and could well serve along with a hand pump as an upgrade for a new build or even a re-build K-sub in lieu of George's heavy trim tank. Having said that, maybe the hand pump is too slow or something. I have no direct experience with them. We'll just have to ask Phil for clarification when he gets time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, I thought I'd heard that the Deep Workers had a plastic compensating tank under the seat. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats. The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for posting that. What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Hi all, This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in buoyancy plus 10% Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 23:57:26 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system In-Reply-To: <3F9DAC9BD21B4E46A6538A29C8FB6510@PhillPC> References: <1389529084.30566.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDB9837C95BC-AF4-51878@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> <1389537543.94766.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0DDBFBBEF29B2-7E7C-53F13@webmail-vd021.sysops.aol.com> <1389568584.2416.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0DE0E0699F347-1B18-556D2@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> <1389577263.80388.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <3F9DAC9BD21B4E46A6538A29C8FB6510@PhillPC> Message-ID: <1389675446.84809.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Happy New Year and thanks for that explanation Phil, I don't know where the article got the colored water from. But you've got me thinking now. The variable ballast tank could double? as a head if placed strategically. Alan ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system Hi, Guys! Happy New Year y?all Re: Seat VBT: The system was one we (Nuytco) used in the earliest DeepWorker model subs ? starting around ?97. The seats were black, roto-cast plastic designed for use on/in snowmobiles, home-built race cars, dune buggies and the like ? and they were hollow. We came up with the idea of using them as a VBT that could be very precisely trimmed immediately pre-dive and could be easily changed (made heavier or lighter) during the dive.? The seat was drilled and tapped for an inlet and outlet line. The water inlet line/hose had a needle valve on the inside of the hull at a convenient spot? for the pilot to reach. The outlet line/hose led to a simple, manually-operated hydraulic hand pump and from there to a? second on/off valve in front of a non-return valve plumbed through a hull penetrator. To use, the DW was trimmed to be buoyant with the seat empty. while the pilot was floating on the surface and the load line cast off, he opened the inlet valve to allow water into the seat until the dome went under and then the inlet valve was then shut off. This made the hull slightly negative and it would sink slowly, or faster with additional down thrusting. This, for pilots who like to dive a bit heavy. To lighten up, the outlet valve is opened and the water pumped out until the sub became buoyant ? just a few strokes, usually. We did try using a heavy duty plastic bag full of fresh water attached to the inlet side to avoid the plankton and assorted little critters when diving in sea water ? but we wound up just flushing the seat tank with fresh, soapy water after an ocean dive and that worked fine. All and all, a pretty neat systems except for a few downsides: Ambient water is pretty cold at depth and chills the butt and back ? and, you have to studiously remember to shut the inlet valve, particularly at any appreciable depth, because even with a needle valve the water comes in fast. We had a hole in the top of the seat as an over-flow? and sometimes got sprayed by the overflow if something distracted you while allowing water in, and a few other minor things. At the time we had this system in place, we were training a bunch ( (40 ? 50) scientists as DW pilots over a two year period ? the experienced pilots had no problem with the seat VBT but we figured it was just too many things going on for new trainees, and so reverted to a conventional nylon box with holes in the bottom as the VBT, and that?s what we use today.? Speaking of which, we brought a couple of DW?s back from a series of science dives in California, a month or so ago ? after a few days in the shop one the DWs developed an extreme case of ?body odor?? - turned out to be a squid decomposing in the VBT! ? Finally, colored water ?? We don?t have any colored water in any of our sub models . . well, that?s not quite true, I guess. We do have our handy-dandy, always reliable MRE?s! Yup, yet another acronym ? in this case, short for ?MISSION RANGE EXTENDERS? ? a wide mouth, screw-top plastic bottle that holds about a quart or a little more. We sometimes use two, one full of, say, apple juice and the other one empty. The idea is to pass the full one through you to the empty MRE ? and make sure you don?t get mixed up! Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:41 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deep Worker 2000 Ballast system ? Thanks Vance, I found this description of their system, but not sure if its correct or what the "colored water" is all about. DeepWorker uses soft ballast together with another ballast system known as ?hard? ballast. In the hard ballast system, colored water is contained within an enclosed small bladder outside the sub. After the pilot dumps all the air from the soft ballast tank in order to lower the sub below the surface, the sub remains slightly buoyant. To sink, the pilot opens a valve to allow a small amount of the colored water into the sub, which adds weight. The water begins to fill a tank in the pilot?s seat, and the sub descends. When the sub is neutrally buoyant (neither sinking nor rising), the pilot shuts off the valve. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming ? They did at one time use a snowmobile seat/gas tank combo to serve both purposes. I think that has gone by the wayside in favor of a small tank under the hull to get the acrylic dome high enough for the pilot to see and maneuver when on the surface. Perhaps it's an optional thing. I'm not sure. They've built a couple of dozen subs by now with the Russian DW-3000s, and there are probably some evolutionary differences between the early models and the later ones. I do think the seat deal was ingenious, and could well serve along with a hand pump as an upgrade for a new build or even a re-build K-sub in lieu of George's heavy trim tank. Having said that, maybe the hand pump is too slow or something. I have no direct experience with them.? We'll just have to ask Phil for clarification when he gets time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Vance, I thought I'd heard that the Deep Workers had a plastic compensating tank under the seat. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming ? Hank and all, VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought. For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts. On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Jim, Joe, When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water.? I will place it where the passenger is normally.? There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving.? I will not need to screw with weights in and out.? I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer.? Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so? I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it.? Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt.? In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without. Hank On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Hi Joe, ? I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger.? That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned.? It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger.? Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum.? Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable. ? Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but it's difficult when the sub is in the water.? In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.? The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy. ? I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy.? The capacity of each is not yet determined.? The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point. ? Best regards, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Alan, I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity? On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ? From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM Hi jim, here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage, changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy." ?? This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all compensating tanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: >Hi Alan, >Thanks for posting that.? What all does "compensating tanks" refer to? >Best regards, >Jim >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming > > >Hi all, >This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming. >It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy". >?? All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged. >?? It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving. >?? The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank. >?? Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter. >?? All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim. >?? Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank. >?? The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening. >?? Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off >valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe. >?? The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off. >?? Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure. >?? Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused. >?? Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in >buoyancy plus 10% >?? Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings. >?? The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum >inflow / outflow and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull. >?? The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks. >Alan > > > > > > >? >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 02:02:25 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:02:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: References: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389682945.22106.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Douglas, I'll do a bit of homework on this. I had a look at the Triton 3000 when it visited N.Z. & it was monitoring just about everything off a computer. They were talking of moving to smaller computers & maybe strapping them to their thighs, so that the screen didn't impinge on their view. Other submersibles I've seen similarly monitor a lot of functions off the computer. I like this little computer with a 4.8" screen. http://www.dynamism.com/top-notebooks/viliv-s5-premium.shtml It runs windows so would be compatable with the Ocean Server compass. Cheers, Alan ? ________________________________ From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Nice find Alan. I'm going to spend some time looking over that site. I have to admit though, I feel the same as you in terms of not wanting to run my compass off a computer. To me, computers should be benefitted from but not relied upon unconditionally. ~ Douglas S. ? On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Jon, >I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications >& has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive. >http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html > >It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do, >but may be forced down this path.? >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Jon Wallace > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice > > > > >A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis >accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the >Arduino UNO.? The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped >producing them.? There are others however but probably more expensive.? >The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). > >Jon > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Tue Jan 14 09:23:02 2014 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:23:02 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <1389682945.22106.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389682945.22106.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I think Triton use a PLC, because I spied a switch labeled "PLC Off" on their control panel. Years ago I got a PLC, a touch screen, and all the associated sensors together, and wrote the code for it. Cliff and I picked the same equipment and shared our code, and you may have seen his R-300 runs everything off a touch screen. It's a very neat approach because you can let the PLC concentrate on background monitoring (e.g. O2 levels, pressures) while letting the pilot concentrate on the driving. Personally, I'm headed in the opposite direction nowadays, designing my new boat to have minimal electronics for reliability and ease of maintenance. But I still have a box full of all this hardware, and if anyone is interested in installing it on their sub they can have it for a tiny fraction of what it would cost new. A PLC is a sort of industrial computer, much simpler and more rugged than a PC. It has no hard drive to fail, and you won't get the "blue screen of death" like on a PC. The logic runs in a continuous loop, monitoring parameters and taking action when conditions you specify are met. For instance, for life support you can say if cabin pressure drops below X, then open a valve to inject O2. Later in the loop, a similar clause would close the valve if cabin pressure rises above Y. The scrubber would remove CO2 continuously, and the PLC add O2 to keep the cabin pressure between X and Y. Other alarms would go off if tank pressures are getting too low, if max depth is exceeded, etc. etc. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Hi Douglas, I'll do a bit of homework on this. I had a look at the Triton 3000 when it visited N.Z. & it was monitoring just about everything off a computer. They were talking of moving to smaller computers & maybe strapping them to their thighs, so that the screen didn't impinge on their view. Other submersibles I've seen similarly monitor a lot of functions off the computer. I like this little computer with a 4.8" screen. http://www.dynamism.com/top-notebooks/viliv-s5-premium.shtml It runs windows so would be compatable with the Ocean Server compass. Cheers, Alan ________________________________ From: Douglas Suhr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Nice find Alan. I'm going to spend some time looking over that site. I have to admit though, I feel the same as you in terms of not wanting to run my compass off a computer. To me, computers should be benefitted from but not relied upon unconditionally. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Alan James > wrote: Hi Jon, I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications & has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive. http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do, but may be forced down this path. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the Arduino UNO. The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped producing them. There are others however but probably more expensive. The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 14 10:24:37 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DW seat opportunity Message-ID: <1389713077.63150.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> If I were lucky enough to have a old style DW I would take advantage of the seat vbt.? Prior to launch I would fill the seat with hot water.? I would pump out hot water as needed to achieve desire buoyancy.? MMMM nice warm butt.? If I were in tropical climates I would fill it with ice water.? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 13:58:06 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:58:06 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DW seat opportunity In-Reply-To: <1389713077.63150.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389713077.63150.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ha... a heated seat! I like your thinking Hank. And cold would be great for diving down in FL too. ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:24 AM, hank pronk wrote: > If I were lucky enough to have a old style DW I would take advantage of > the seat vbt. Prior to launch I would fill the seat with hot water. I > would pump out hot water as needed to achieve desire buoyancy. MMMM nice > warm butt. If I were in tropical climates I would fill it with ice water. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 15:02:56 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:02:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: References: <52D48E4A.5070303@psubs.org> <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389682945.22106.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389729776.16253.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, Thanks for the explanation, I'm a bit vague on these things & it looks like I'll have to learn. I'm probably about 6 months off making a decision on a PLC but that looks like what I need. I had been looking at using a rebreather system for life support, where they monitor the input of 3 O2 sensors & take the average reading of the closest 2.? James Cameron had his life support system?based?on the rebreather & built ?by?Ambient? Pressure?Diving who make the Inspiration rebreather. I was going to approach APD but It seems a relatively easy system to replicate on a PLC.? I like the electronic compass I posted, with the yaw pitch & roll & graphics software. They state.......?The 5000-US software includes a USB to serial port driver, facilitating a quick connection between the compass and your Windows based system. Compasses can also be connected to a host system using Microsoft Hyperterm or other terminal programs. I am not sure if I can connect this to a PLC with Microsoft Hyperterm. But buying something with the graphics program already written would be a big advantage. Any knowledge as to whether I can connect this to any PLC? I took a photo of the Triton computer/PLC. (attached bottom of page) It does have a windows logo? on the keyboard?but I think the screen detaches & runs independantly, so may be a PLC.? All confusing?to me. See what you think. Alan ________________________________ From: "Smyth, Alec" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Hi Alan, ? I think Triton use a PLC, because I spied a switch labeled ?PLC Off? on their control panel. Years ago I got a PLC, a touch screen, and all the associated sensors together, and wrote the code for it. Cliff and I picked the same equipment and shared our code, and you may have seen his R-300 runs everything off a touch screen. It?s a very neat approach because you can let the PLC concentrate on background monitoring (e.g. O2 levels, pressures) while letting the pilot concentrate on the driving. Personally, I?m headed in the opposite direction nowadays, designing my new boat to have minimal electronics for reliability and ease of maintenance. But I still have a box full of all this hardware, and if anyone is interested in installing it on their sub they can have it for a tiny fraction of what it would cost new. ? A PLC is a sort of industrial computer, much simpler and more rugged than a PC. It has no hard drive to fail, and you won?t get the ?blue screen of death? like on a PC. The logic runs in a continuous loop, monitoring parameters and taking action when conditions you specify are met. For instance, for life support you can say if cabin pressure drops below X, then open a valve to inject O2. Later in the loop, a similar clause would close the valve if cabin pressure rises above Y. The scrubber would remove CO2 continuously, and the PLC add O2 to keep the cabin pressure between X and Y. Other alarms would go off if tank pressures are getting too low, if max depth is exceeded, etc. etc. ? ? Best, Alec ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice ? Hi Douglas, I'll do a bit of homework on this. I had a look at the Triton 3000 when it visited N.Z. & it was monitoring just about everything off a computer. They were talking of moving to smaller computers & maybe strapping them to their thighs, so that the screen didn't impinge on their view. Other submersibles I've seen similarly monitor a lot of functions off the computer. I like this little computer with a 4.8" screen. http://www.dynamism.com/top-notebooks/viliv-s5-premium.shtml It runs windows so would be compatable with the Ocean Server compass. Cheers, Alan ? ? ________________________________ From:Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice ? Nice find Alan. I'm going to spend some time looking over that site. I have to admit though, I feel the same as you in terms of not wanting to run my compass off a computer. To me, computers should be benefitted from but not relied upon unconditionally. ~ Douglas S. ? ? On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Jon, >I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications >& has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive. >http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html >It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do, >but may be forced down this path.? >Alan >? >? > >________________________________ > >From:Jon Wallace > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent:Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice >? > >A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis >accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the >Arduino UNO.? The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped >producing them.? There are others however but probably more expensive.? >The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). > >Jon > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Triton PC.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 121526 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 17:00:01 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:00:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389736801.20793.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan, I am aware of that one as well. They have a model that talks "serial" which means it could interface with a microprocessor like the arduino. Any three axis tilt compensated IC compass will also provide yaw, pitch, and roll in addition to compass readings. Scott Waters was lucky enough to pick up one of the last HMC models from Honeywell which I coded up for him. Honeywell is no longer making that particular model but it was highly accurate and only cost $150 with the breakout board. Remaining Honeywell models are in the near $400 (US) price range. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 1/13/14, Alan James wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, January 13, 2014, 10:45 PM Hi Jon,I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications& has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive.http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do,but may be forced down this path.?Alan From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis accelerometer) would work connected to a small microcontroller like the Arduino UNO.? The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped producing them.? There are others however but probably more expensive.? The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 19:03:01 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:03:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <1389736801.20793.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389671147.26282.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1389736801.20793.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389744181.847.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Jon, it doesn't look like it does what I thought it did. The software provided seems to be just a demo. I was hoping it was something I could plug in & voila, I had graphics of a compass on a screen. G.L. seems to require a duplication of a lot of the monitoring equipment as well as alarms for everything, so I'll continue going through the manual? till I know?exactly what I need, then look at my options. Perhaps we could develop a G.L. & ABS compliant module as a Psubs ?group project??? It could monitor battery levels & amp draw, ballast levels, control & monitor? the O2 delivery system & CO2 levels, incorporate the digital compass & display?cabin pressure etc. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Alan, I am aware of that one as well.? They have a model that talks "serial" which means it could interface with a microprocessor like the arduino. Any three axis tilt compensated IC compass will also provide yaw, pitch, and roll in addition to compass readings.? Scott Waters was lucky enough to pick up one of the last HMC models from Honeywell which I coded up for him.? Honeywell is no longer making that particular model but it was highly accurate and only cost $150 with the breakout board.? Remaining Honeywell models are in the near $400 (US) price range. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 1/13/14, Alan James wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, January 13, 2014, 10:45 PM Hi Jon,I found this off the shelf unit for $250- (made in USA) It is designed for marine applications& has yaw, pitch & roll which is a G.L. requirement. So it's looking attractive.http://www.ocean-server.com/compass.html It looks like I would have to run it off a computer though, which I didn't want to do,but may be forced down this path.?Alan ? ? ? ? From: Jon Wallace ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:09 PM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice ? ? A tilt-compensated electronic compass (three axis, plus three axis accelerometer) would work connected ? to a small microcontroller like the Arduino UNO.? The HMC6352 was the standard but Honeywell stopped producing them.? There are others however but probably more expensive.? The display could be a nice four digit LED (under two inches). Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 17:09:47 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Piping systems, Pumps & Compressors Message-ID: <1389823787.47733.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi people, I have omitted the summary on Vessels & Apparatus Under Pressure as there wasn't much of consequence that hadn't previously been covered, and are now on to Piping Systems, Pumps & Compressors. Some good stuff here. ? ?Pipes which go through the pressure hull are to be fitted with two shut off devices. One of which is located at the hull wall. ? ?Pipes passing through spaces inadequate for maintenance are to be one piece. ? ?Manual shut off devices are to be closed by turning in the clockwise direction. ? ?All sea valves & essential shut off valves are to be clearly indicated. ? ?Each hose is to be designed for the burst pressure, which is for liquids, 4x & for gases, 5x the maximum allowable working pressure. ? ?Generally submersibles are to be equipped with a bilge system capable of? removing water from condensation or leakage from all spaces in the sub. ? ?In the bilge system, two non return valves are required. The wording for their placement is?"two non return valves are to be mounted in front of the freeing connections. One?of these non-return valves is to be placed in the pipe in front?of each suction." (not sure what they mean). ? ?Bilge pumps are to be of self priming type. ? ?If you are using the bilge pump to also operate your trimming & compensating systems, valves have to be fitted so that from the event of wrongly operating valves or partially opened valves, no seawater can get in the submersible. The bilge system has to have?a back up pump, & with?an interconnected bilge / trim / compensating system;?the back up pump ?must?be able to?service all systems. Where diving tanks are emptied by pumps, the back up pump has to be connected to the? emergency power supply. The air supply for the diving ballast tanks has to be sufficient to blow the tanks 4x at the surface & 1.5x at the nominated diving depth. And enough to blow the compensating tanks 3 times completely at nominated diving depth. (I'm not sure if this is additional to the ballast tank requirements) The compressed air supply is to be carried in two separate banks of receivers with the same total volume & fitted with valves so that no unintentional pressure equalization can occur between different systems. Where pressure reducing valves are fitted these are to be redundant. In single cases provision can be made for bypassing with manual control. In addition, a safety valve is to be fitted on the low pressure side of the pressure reducing valve, or equally safe alternative. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 19:32:48 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:32:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Piping systems, Pumps & Compressors In-Reply-To: <1389823787.47733.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1389832368.94861.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Very informative Alan, thank you.

I'm going to assume that the "in front of suction" is meant that placement is upstream of the pump.

The HP volumes are particularly interesting.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 20:58:57 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:58:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Piping systems, Pumps & Compressors In-Reply-To: <1389832368.94861.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1389832368.94861.YahooMailIosMobile@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <729A4251-2148-4018-A7FB-992FC80CF80D@yahoo.com> Joe, it could mean both are on the outlet side of the pump & one has to come directly off the pump. I have just printed out the 2014 ABS regulations so will see if they have a similar requirement that may help with the interpretation. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/01/2014, at 1:32 pm, Joe Perkel wrote: > > > Very informative Alan, thank you. > > I'm going to assume that the "in front of suction" is meant that placement is upstream of the pump. > > The HP volumes are particularly interesting. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Alan James ; > To: psubs.org ; > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Piping systems, Pumps & Compressors > Sent: Wed, Jan 15, 2014 10:09:47 PM > > Hi people, > I have omitted the summary on Vessels & Apparatus Under Pressure > as there wasn't much of consequence that hadn't previously been covered, > and are now on to Piping Systems, Pumps & Compressors. > Some good stuff here. > Pipes which go through the pressure hull are to be fitted with two shut off > devices. One of which is located at the hull wall. > Pipes passing through spaces inadequate for maintenance are to be one piece. > Manual shut off devices are to be closed by turning in the clockwise direction. > All sea valves & essential shut off valves are to be clearly indicated. > Each hose is to be designed for the burst pressure, which is for liquids, 4x & > for gases, 5x the maximum allowable working pressure. > Generally submersibles are to be equipped with a bilge system capable of > removing water from condensation or leakage from all spaces in the sub. > In the bilge system, two non return valves are required. The wording for their placement is "two non return valves are to be mounted in front of the freeing connections. One of these non-return valves is to be placed in the pipe in front of each suction." (not sure what they mean). > Bilge pumps are to be of self priming type. > If you are using the bilge pump to also operate your trimming & compensating > systems, valves have to be fitted so that from the event of wrongly operating valves > or partially opened valves, no seawater can get in the submersible. The bilge system has to have a back up pump, & with an interconnected bilge / trim / compensating system; the back up pump must be able to service all systems. > Where diving tanks are emptied by pumps, the back up pump has to be connected to the > emergency power supply. > The air supply for the diving ballast tanks has to be sufficient to blow the tanks 4x at the surface & 1.5x at the nominated diving depth. And enough to blow the compensating tanks > 3 times completely at nominated diving depth. (I'm not sure if this is additional to the ballast tank requirements) > The compressed air supply is to be carried in two separate banks of receivers with the same total volume & fitted with valves so that no unintentional pressure equalization can occur between different systems. > Where pressure reducing valves are fitted these are to be redundant. In single cases provision can be made for bypassing with manual control. In addition, a safety valve is to be fitted on the low pressure side of the pressure reducing valve, or equally safe alternative. > Alan > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 22:08:42 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:08:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Hydraulic & Oxygen Systems Message-ID: <1389928122.52926.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hydraulic Systems ? ?The Hydraulic system is to be built to GL rules, Machinery Installations (1-1-2), section 14. standard. ? ?All pipes which are passing through the pressure hull have to be at least to "pipe class 1 " standard. ? ?Hydraulic fluid is selected so that if water mixes with it, it doesn't seriously impair the system. ? ?Hydraulic systems require a closed circuit safety valve to prevent over-pressurization. ? ?They require filters & provision made for venting & de-watering the system. ? ?Hydraulic fluid tanks are to be fitted with level indicators. ? ?Hydraulic lines shouldn't be routed close to oxygen systems ? ?All the necessary indicating devices are to be fitted. Oxygen Systems ? ?Any level of O2 of more than 25% is treated as an O2 line. ? ?Everything needs to be cleaned & degreased prior to assembly. ? ?In piping systems containing O2, only spindle valves are allowed. Ball valves are allowed as emergency shut off valves if they are marked as such & secured against unintentional use. ? ?Where possible the O2 pressure is to be reduced at the bottle. ? ??High pressure O2 lines shouldn't be routed through accommodation spaces or engine rooms etc. ? ?For O2 lines with operating pressures above 40 bar (580psi), high alloyed Cr-Ni-steels with a content of Cr & Ni of together at least 22%, or Cr-Si-steels with a Cr content of at least 22% are to be used. ? ?Spindle valves for pipes wider than 15mm & operating at more than 40 bar, have to have their spindle gear? outside the gas space. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 10:42:58 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 07:42:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <52D9448E.2080600@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1389973378.70512.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, I'm not aware of any Plug'n'Play modules like that. The closest thing would be the unit that Cliff Redus uses in his sub. Once you have the framework in place you can add sensors that "plug in" and communicate with the main processor all using the same protocol. However, I don't know if there are sensors for everything that a cert authority would require and it's a relatively expensive setup compared to combinations of sensors from other manufacturers. For any modern PC or MAC you would need to have serial communication for all devices which you could then display via a custom Java app or VisualBasic or even a perl script that displayed info via HTML using custom graphics. The problem is most small individual sensors such as temp, pressure, etc use either an ADC or a protocol like I2C or SPI to communicate with the processor. Even most O2 and CO2 sensors use these methods although more expensive models do have a serial option. However, getting every sensor you need to output in serial is probably not going to happen. Then you have the issue of condensation and other water infiltration destroying the electronic components, hence Alec's route of simplifying his next sub with analog vs electronic. Replacing a notebook or laptop is still going to be a multi-hundred dollar event. Replacing a small microprocessor is going to be about $30 (US). So you don't get the fancy graphics with a microprocessor but you get adequate information display with cheap replacement costs. My current project takes a pseudo-PNP approach in that it is comprised of individual sensor modules that plug into the microprocessor. If any sensor fails you disconnect it from the processor module and replace only that sensor. If the processor fails, disconnect all the sensors, replace the microprocessor module, and plug all the sensors back in. Display is on 7-segment LED and character cell LCD, so is not fancy, but is functional. I will also be able to log all sensor data to an SD card for post dive analysis which can of course be as graphical fancy as I choose. And of course MATILDA will provide voice alarm capability. As with everything, compromise reigns. I started out looking for a PNP PC based solution but eventually gravitated to a microprocessor due to cost, availability, and convenience. A certified sub budget will get you a PNP solution, but my recreational budget won't get me there. We can likely come up with a microprocessor solution that complies with GL or ABS although my personal project won't comply with it, limited to water pressure (and depth), vertical rate of movement (feet per minute), water temp, cabin temp, cabin pressure, cabin humidity, O2, CO2, and various MATILDA voice alarms. However, it's merely a matter of identifying the required sensors that have the capability to satisfy the cert authority's specifications. Jon -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:03:01 -0800 (PST) From: Alan James Reply-To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Jon, it doesn't look like it does what I thought it did. The software provided seems to be just a demo. I was hoping it was something I could plug in & voila, I had graphics of a compass on a screen. G.L. seems to require a duplication of a lot of the monitoring equipment as well as alarms for everything, so I'll continue going through the manual till I know exactly what I need, then look at my options. Perhaps we could develop a G.L. & ABS compliant module as a Psubs group project??? It could monitor battery levels & amp draw, ballast levels, control & monitor the O2 delivery system & CO2 levels, incorporate the digital compass & display cabin pressure etc. Alan From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 17 17:20:43 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:20:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test Message-ID: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test.? So far it is holding just fine. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 17:28:58 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:28:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> Way to go Hank!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test. So far it is holding just fine. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 17 17:33:06 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:33:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' Vance, This is a very big step Hank On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Way to go Hank!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test.? So far it is holding just fine. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 17:50:10 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E1ED9C6187EA-23D4-4AFE@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> Yes sir, it is. Lots of work to get to this point. Well done. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test Thanks' Vance, This is a very big step Hank On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Way to go Hank!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test. So far it is holding just fine. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 18:20:01 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:20:01 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That must be the fastest restoration ever, great job. Please post more pictures! Best, Alec On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Thanks' Vance, > This is a very big step > Hank > > > On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > Way to go Hank!!! > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test > > After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test. So > far it is holding just fine. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 17 19:34:09 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 16:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390005249.31373.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, I will post some pictures early next week.? The rebuild has gone well and I am pleased with the out come.? Hank On Friday, January 17, 2014 4:20:21 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: That must be the fastest restoration ever, great job. Please post more pictures! Best, Alec On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' Vance, >This is a very big step >Hank > > > >On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Way to go Hank!!! >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test > > >After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test.? So far it is holding just fine. >Hank >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Fri Jan 17 19:46:21 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:46:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: <1390005249.31373.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390005249.31373.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, good job! Wish I was moving my project ahead as quick as yours. would be interested in knowing how you are planning on moving forward with in water testing? Thanks for sharing. Steve On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 7:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Alec, > I will post some pictures early next week. The rebuild has gone well and > I am pleased with the out come. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 17, 2014 4:20:21 PM, Alec Smyth > wrote: > That must be the fastest restoration ever, great job. Please post more > pictures! > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Thanks' Vance, > This is a very big step > Hank > > > On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > Way to go Hank!!! > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test > > After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test. So > far it is holding just fine. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 17 20:04:51 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:04:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test In-Reply-To: References: <1389997243.82560.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E1EAA5BE91B6-23D4-48FB@webmail-d283.sysops.aol.com> <1389997986.12094.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390005249.31373.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390007091.54459.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Steve, Thanks", This project went quickly because I am having a very slow year at work.? This has given me lots of time to work on the sub.? I plan to take the sub to a lake 5hr from home called Slocan Lake.? I hope to do a test dive to 100 feet or so in a few weeks.? This all hinges on weather, I want the temperature to be at least above freezing when I go out there. Hank On Friday, January 17, 2014 5:46:41 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: Hank, good job!? Wish I was moving my project ahead as quick as yours. would be interested in knowing how you are planning on moving forward with in water testing? Thanks for sharing. Steve On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 7:34 PM, hank pronk wrote: Alec, >I will post some pictures early next week.? The rebuild has gone well and I am pleased with the out come.? >Hank > > > >On Friday, January 17, 2014 4:20:21 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > >That must be the fastest restoration ever, great job. Please post more pictures! > > > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:33 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Thanks' Vance, >>This is a very big step >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:29:28 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >> >>Way to go Hank!!! >>Vance >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: hank pronk >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Fri, Jan 17, 2014 5:22 pm >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacume test >> >> >>After aprox 20 yrs Nekton Gamma is having it's first vacuum test.? So far it is holding just fine. >>Hank >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 22:32:51 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice In-Reply-To: <1389973378.70512.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52D9448E.2080600@psubs.org> <1389973378.70512.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390015971.17424.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks for that detailed explanation Jon. You seemed to have covered most needs in your unit. Some of G.L.s requirements are a bit over the top for a small submersible; for instance who needs a ballast tank level indicator. When you are under the water they're empty. I have been looking at a product, c-more micro series & c-more panel series of touch screen monitors that are supplied with graphics programing software that has a library of dials, displays, graphs etc. They start at $324- & link to most PLCs on the market. As well as monitor, you can control functions from the touch screen, so much the same as Cliff's set up. Thought they were very reasonably priced and take a lot of hard work out of the process. Below is an intro video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7yp-7kry1U http://c-more.automationdirect.com/hardware/models.html They refer to the Automation directs "Click PLC" which looks like a good option. As you mention G.L. could have a problem with this in a marine environment. Alan ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Hi Alan, I'm not aware of any Plug'n'Play modules like that.? The closest thing would be the unit that Cliff Redus uses in his sub.? Once you have the framework in place you can add sensors that "plug in" and communicate with the main processor all using the same protocol.? However, I don't know if there are sensors for everything that a cert authority would require and it's a relatively expensive setup compared to combinations of sensors from other manufacturers. For any modern PC or MAC you would need to have serial communication for all devices which you could then display via a custom Java app or VisualBasic or even a perl script that displayed info via HTML using custom graphics.? The problem is most small individual sensors such as temp, pressure, etc use either an ADC or a protocol like I2C or SPI to communicate with the processor.? Even most O2 and CO2 sensors use these methods although more expensive models do have a serial option.? However, getting every sensor you need to output in serial is probably not going to happen. Then you have the issue of condensation and other water infiltration destroying the electronic components, hence Alec's route of simplifying his next sub with analog vs electronic.? Replacing a notebook or laptop is still going to be a multi-hundred dollar event.? Replacing a small microprocessor is going to be about $30 (US).? So you don't get the fancy graphics with a microprocessor but you get adequate information display with cheap replacement costs. My current project takes a pseudo-PNP approach in that it is comprised of individual sensor modules that plug into the microprocessor.? If any sensor fails you disconnect it from the processor module and replace only that sensor.? If the processor fails, disconnect all the sensors, replace the microprocessor module, and plug all the sensors back in.? Display is on 7-segment LED and character cell LCD, so is not fancy, but is functional.? I will also be able to log all sensor data to an SD card for post dive analysis which can of course be as graphical fancy as I choose.? And of course MATILDA will provide voice alarm capability. As with everything, compromise reigns.? I started out looking for a PNP PC based solution but eventually gravitated to a microprocessor due to cost, availability, and convenience.? A certified sub budget will get you a PNP solution, but my recreational budget won't get me there. We can likely come up with a microprocessor solution that complies with GL or ABS although my personal project won't comply with it, limited to water pressure (and depth), vertical rate of movement (feet per minute), water temp, cabin temp, cabin pressure, cabin humidity, O2, CO2, and various MATILDA voice alarms.? However, it's merely a matter of identifying the required sensors that have the capability to satisfy the cert authority's specifications. Jon -------- Original Message -------- Subject:??? Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Choice Date:??? Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:03:01 -0800 (PST) From:??? Alan James Reply-To:??? Personal Submersibles General Discussion To:??? Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hi Jon, it doesn't look like it does what I thought it did. The software provided seems to be just a demo. I was hoping it was something I could plug in & voila, I had graphics of a compass on a screen. G.L. seems to require a duplication of a lot of the monitoring equipment as well as alarms for everything, so I'll continue going through the manual till I know exactly what I need, then look at my options. Perhaps we could develop a G.L. & ABS compliant module as a Psubs group project??? It could monitor battery levels & amp draw, ballast levels, control & monitor the O2 delivery system & CO2 levels, incorporate the digital compass & display cabin pressure etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 18:24:40 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:24:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Message-ID: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. ? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. ? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. ? ?Propellers need shielding. ? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? be capable of manual control. ? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. ? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. ? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. ? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) ? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) ? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject to the above requirement. ? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. ? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us & their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. Regards Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From haavard.hardy at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 03:05:18 2014 From: haavard.hardy at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hardy?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 09:05:18 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? 2014/1/20 Alan James > This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. > In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems > are subject to G.L. rules for > machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. > The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. > Propellers need shielding. > Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues > running, & the motors need to > be capable of manual control. > The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to > guarantee safe operation. > Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. > The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. > Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), > need to be equipped with > auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) > The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees > one side to 30 degrees the other > within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) > If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an > alternative power supply that can > be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used > for maneuvering are also subject > to the above requirement. > There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any > failure of the steering gear. > There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some > operations, but probably don't concern us > & their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. > Regards Alan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 05:31:44 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 02:31:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Havard, I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & certification of submersibles &? summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come from the U.S.A where they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible classifyer. Alan ________________________________ From: H?vard Hardy To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? 2014/1/20 Alan James This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. >? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for >machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. >? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. >? ?Propellers need shielding. >? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? >be capable of manual control. >? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. >? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. >? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. >? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with >auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) >? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other >within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) >? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can >be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject >to the above requirement. >? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. >? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us >& their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. >Regards Alan > > > > >? > > >? >? ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From haavard.hardy at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 05:41:49 2014 From: haavard.hardy at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hardy?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:41:49 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ahh okey! :) only 5 mil people in Norway, havent found anyone that have buildt a sub here befor, think i am the first one! havent found any rules or classification & certification here in norway. so i am going after the ones you have inn Usa. 2014/1/20 Alan James > Hi Havard, > I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & > certification of submersibles & > summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come > from the U.S.A where > they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible > classifyer. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* H?vard Hardy > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment > > sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? > > > 2014/1/20 Alan James > > This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. > In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems > are subject to G.L. rules for > machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. > The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. > Propellers need shielding. > Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues > running, & the motors need to > be capable of manual control. > The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to > guarantee safe operation. > Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. > The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. > Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), > need to be equipped with > auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) > The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees > one side to 30 degrees the other > within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) > If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an > alternative power supply that can > be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used > for maneuvering are also subject > to the above requirement. > There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any > failure of the steering gear. > There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some > operations, but probably don't concern us > & their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. > Regards Alan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 11:55:13 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 08:55:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390236913.14770.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan,

I'm going to assume that auxiliary steering means a secondary means of moving the primary surface. As in a sailboat using a tiller as backup for an inop pedestal.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 13:45:27 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:45:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <1390173880.23408.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390243527.11464.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Havard, I'm in New Zealand, ?G.L. is based in Hamburg, Germany.? We have a member in Rostock, Germany, Carsten, who overseas?certification for Swiss Lloyds, which focuses on smaller submersibles. Most home builders wouldn't build to classification standard. But the rules are there for a reason &?there are some good safety guidelines that can be found in them. Alan ? ________________________________ From: H?vard Hardy To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Ahh okey! :) only 5 mil people in Norway, havent found anyone that have buildt a sub here befor, think i am the first one! havent found any rules or?classification & certification here in norway. so i am going after the ones you have inn Usa.? 2014/1/20 Alan James Hi Havard, >I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & certification of submersibles &? >summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come from the U.S.A where >they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible classifyer. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: H?vard Hardy >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment > > > >sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? > > > >2014/1/20 Alan James > >This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. >>? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for >>machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. >>? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. >>? ?Propellers need shielding. >>? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? >>be capable of manual control. >>? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. >>? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. >>? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. >>? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with >>auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) >>? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other >>within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) >>? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can >>be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject >>to the above requirement. >>? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. >>? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us >>& their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. >>Regards Alan >> >> >> >> >>? >> >> >>? >>? ? >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 13:55:28 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390236913.14770.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390236913.14770.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390244128.64588.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, it could be. Hopefully when I read through ABS it will shed some light on areas of uncertainty in G.L.. At the moment I intend to have two horizontal thrusters, two rotating vertical thrusters & no rudder. This will mean I would have to have a malfunction on two motors on the same side to loose steering. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Alan, I'm going to assume that auxiliary steering means a secondary means of moving the primary surface. As in a sailboat using a tiller as backup for an inop pedestal. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 10:31:44 AM Hi Havard, I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & certification of submersibles &? summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come from the U.S.A where they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible classifyer. Alan ________________________________ From: H?vard Hardy To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? 2014/1/20 Alan James This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. >? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for >machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. >? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. >? ?Propellers need shielding. >? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? >be capable of manual control. >? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. >? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. >? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. >? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with >auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) >? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other >within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) >? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can >be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject >to the above requirement. >? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. >? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us >& their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. >Regards Alan > > > > >? > > >? >? ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 13:58:21 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:58:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390244128.64588.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390236913.14770.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390244128.64588.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390244301.81292.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am shocked that the motors do not need to be jettisonable Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 11:55:47 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Joe, it could be. Hopefully when I read through ABS it will shed some light on areas of uncertainty in G.L.. At the moment I intend to have two horizontal thrusters, two rotating vertical thrusters & no rudder. This will mean I would have to have a malfunction on two motors on the same side to loose steering. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Alan, I'm going to assume that auxiliary steering means a secondary means of moving the primary surface. As in a sailboat using a tiller as backup for an inop pedestal. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 10:31:44 AM Hi Havard, I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & certification of submersibles &? summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come from the U.S.A where they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible classifyer. Alan ________________________________ From: H?vard Hardy To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? 2014/1/20 Alan James This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. >? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for >machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. >? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. >? ?Propellers need shielding. >? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? >be capable of manual control. >? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. >? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. >? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. >? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with >auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) >? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other >within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) >? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can >be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject >to the above requirement. >? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. >? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us >& their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. >Regards Alan > > > > > > > > >? ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 14:44:10 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:44:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment In-Reply-To: <1390244301.81292.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390213904.24935.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390236913.14770.YahooMailIosMobile@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390244128.64588.YahooMailNeo@web141205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390244301.81292.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390247050.69763.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, I guess some thrusters can't be made jettisonable very easily, like your rear thruster on Gamma & thrusters mounted inside exostructures, otherwise they probably would have made that rule. ? ?When I was a kid I used to rip the lid off suitcases & sail down the creek in them with 1" of freeboard.? Must have?been all of 5 years old to fit in one of them. No worries about G.L. compliancy in those days. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment I am shocked that the motors do not need to be jettisonable Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 11:55:47 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Joe, it could be. Hopefully when I read through ABS it will shed some light on areas of uncertainty in G.L.. At the moment I intend to have two horizontal thrusters, two rotating vertical thrusters & no rudder. This will mean I would have to have a malfunction on two motors on the same side to loose steering. Alan From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Alan, I'm going to assume that auxiliary steering means a secondary means of moving the primary surface. As in a sailboat using a tiller as backup for an inop pedestal. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 10:31:44 AM Hi Havard, I'm going through the Germanic Lloyds rules for classification & certification of submersibles &? summarizing it for people that may be interested. Most of the group come from the U.S.A where they have the American Bureau of Shipping as the main submersible classifyer. Alan From: H?vard Hardy To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Propulsion & Manoeuvring Equipment sorry, have to ask.. G.L rules? 2014/1/20 Alan James This is section 10 of 15. We are slowly getting there. >? ?In addition to the following rules, the propulsion & steering systems are ?subject to G.L. rules for >machinery installations & the rudders to G.L. rules on hull structures. >? ?The motors are to be designed to be used continuously. >? ?Propellers need shielding. >? ?Electronic motor controllers shouldn't fail so the motor continues running, & the motors need to? >be capable of manual control. >? ?The propulsion equipment needs to be fitted with indicators & alarms to guarantee safe operation. >? ?Effective reverse thrust for braking has to be provided. >? ?The stress in the rudder stock can't exceed .5 of the yield stress. >? ?Independent submersibles (operated off shore without support ship), need to be equipped with >auxiliary steering gear (bit foggy about what this means) >? ?The steering gear needs to be able to move the rudder from 35 degrees one side to 30 degrees the other >within 28 seconds (how's that for nit picking) >? ?If horizontal rudders are a necessity on your sub, they need to have an alternative power supply that can >be operated from the control stand. The "slewing" movements of motors used for maneuvering are also subject >to the above requirement. >? ?There needs to be rudder position indicators & indicators to signal any failure of the steering gear. >? ?There are rules for dynamic positioning that are required for some operations, but probably don't concern us >& their equipment is examined on a case by case basis. >Regards Alan > > > > >? > > >? >? ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 15:14:54 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:14:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Message-ID: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Jan 20 15:43:17 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:43:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E43761ED460F-2278-DA49@webmail-va009.sysops.aol.com> She looks shiny as a new penny, Hank. Terrific job! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 3:15 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 16:13:20 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:13:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <8D0E43761ED460F-2278-DA49@webmail-va009.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E43761ED460F-2278-DA49@webmail-va009.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390252400.69490.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Thanks, I will give her a smooth paint job after the first test etc.? They tend to get banged up before everything is sorted.? How do like the white with yellow tail?? I like it, and since I wrote the check, I get to pick the colour?:-)? I just got the manipulator working, turns out the pump is working fine.? The valve is sticking and causing the pump to over load.? I will tear the valve apart tomorrow and find the problem.? I mounted the valve right behind the nose cone so I can take it apart without removing it.? Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:43:36 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: She looks shiny as a new penny, Hank. Terrific job!? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 3:15 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 16:36:16 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:36:16 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390252400.69490.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E43761ED460F-2278-DA49@webmail-va009.sysops.aol.com> <1390252400.69490.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5E506708-C3D7-4B0D-B446-B20FC18858C6@gmail.com> Congrats, she's just a spectacular boat. Everything looks just absolutely optimal - functional, pretty, and tough as nails. Best, Alec > On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:13 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Vance, > Thanks, I will give her a smooth paint job after the first test etc. They tend to get banged up before everything is sorted. How do like the white with yellow tail? I like it, and since I wrote the check, I get to pick the colour :-) > I just got the manipulator working, turns out the pump is working fine. The valve is sticking and causing the pump to over load. I will tear the valve apart tomorrow and find the problem. I mounted the valve right behind the nose cone so I can take it apart without removing it. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:43:36 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > She looks shiny as a new penny, Hank. Terrific job! > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 3:15 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:08:49 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:08:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390255729.67521.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Mon Jan 20 17:20:59 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:20:59 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390255729.67521.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390255729.67521.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5DA3FC72EA784BA6AA97C78B81139654@LandNSeaPC> Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 17:27:34 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:27:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <5DA3FC72EA784BA6AA97C78B81139654@LandNSeaPC> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390255729.67521.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5DA3FC72EA784BA6AA97C78B81139654@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1390256854.22656.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Jan 20 19:08:42 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:08:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390252400.69490.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E43761ED460F-2278-DA49@webmail-va009.sysops.aol.com> <1390252400.69490.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E45413CA96E8-1738-B96D@webmail-m222.sysops.aol.com> Good news about the hydraulics. Paint is fine. If it gets boring, add some red stripes for contrast. Speaking of banged up, a testament to how tough these little guys are--back in the 70s, the sister sub Beta rolled off a trailer in Washington state and down an embankment. They winched her up with a wrecker, touched up the paint and mopped out the battery compartment and still made their scheduled dive the next morning. Let's see anybody else try that and get away with that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, Thanks, I will give her a smooth paint job after the first test etc. They tend to get banged up before everything is sorted. How do like the white with yellow tail? I like it, and since I wrote the check, I get to pick the colour :-) I just got the manipulator working, turns out the pump is working fine. The valve is sticking and causing the pump to over load. I will tear the valve apart tomorrow and find the problem. I mounted the valve right behind the nose cone so I can take it apart without removing it. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:43:36 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: She looks shiny as a new penny, Hank. Terrific job! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 20, 2014 3:15 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 20:08:28 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 20:08:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390256854.22656.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390248894.63867.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390255729.67521.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5DA3FC72EA784BA6AA97C78B81139654@LandNSeaPC> <1390256854.22656.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. > Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: > Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? > > Rick > > From: Alan James > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Wow, well done Hank. > It's great being able to follow the progress. > I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. > We could all dive in one. > Alan > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 20:43:43 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 17:43:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 21:42:47 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 18:42:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >Hank > > > >On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: > >Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? > >Rick > > >From: Alan James >Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > >Wow, well done Hank. >It's great being able to follow the progress. >I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >We could all dive in one. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > > >I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From haavard.hardy at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 02:54:16 2014 From: haavard.hardy at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hardy?=) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:54:16 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] main pressure hull thicknes? Message-ID: i was thinking about calling a estmatet cost of the main pressute hull here in norway. just so i have clue about what it would cost to build a sub. but cant really find ut how thick the pressute hul have to be.. i am thinking that it would have to be 10 - 12 mm thick? whit ribs. to get to 500 meteres safe. tried using the design tool on the web paige, but the site dosent work.. Diameter 1 meter. length: 4.5 meters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From haavard.hardy at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 03:00:21 2014 From: haavard.hardy at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hardy?=) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:00:21 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk > Joe, > Thank you, > The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is > reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I > assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when > towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel < > josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: > BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what > holds it there? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > * From: * Joe Perkel ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > * Sent: * Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM > > Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! > > Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware > referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. > > A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. > > Joe > > On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. > Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took > it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. > Pretty nice set up. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea < > landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote: > Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each > arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting > capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep > the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any > construction pictures of it while you went? > > Rick > > *From:* Alan James > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Wow, well done Hank. > It's great being able to follow the progress. > I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good > collection of subs now. > We could all dive in one. > Alan > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as > promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump > is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked > into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Jan 21 04:52:11 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:52:11 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > where can i see this pictures?:) > > > 2014/1/21 hank pronk > >> Joe, >> Thank you, >> The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is >> reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I >> assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when >> towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel < >> josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: >> BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and >> what holds it there? >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> *From: *Joe Perkel ; >> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; >> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >> *Sent: *Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >> >> Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >> >> Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware >> referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. >> >> A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >> >> Joe >> >> On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >> Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took >> it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. >> Pretty nice set up. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea < >> landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote: >> Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each >> arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting >> capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep >> the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any >> construction pictures of it while you went? >> >> Rick >> >> *From:* Alan James >> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >> >> Wow, well done Hank. >> It's great being able to follow the progress. >> I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good >> collection of subs now. >> We could all dive in one. >> Alan >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >> >> I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as >> promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump >> is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked >> into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 08:34:55 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 05:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James Thank you, If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism.? You would have no trouble replicating it.?? Hank? On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) > > > >2014/1/21 hank pronk > >Joe, >>Thank you, >>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >>From: Joe Perkel ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >> >> >>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >> >> >>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >> >> >>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >> >> >>Joe >> >>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>> >>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>> >>>Rick >>> >>> >>>From: Alan James >>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>We could all dive in one. >>>Alan >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>> >>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 09:21:20 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:21:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] main pressure hull thicknes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1390314080.22687.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Which design tool did you try to use? -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 1/21/14, H?vard Hardy wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] main pressure hull thicknes? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, January 21, 2014, 2:54 AM i was thinking about calling a estmatet cost of the main pressute hull here in norway. just so i have clue about what it would cost to build a sub. but cant really find ut how thick the pressute hul have to be.. i am thinking that it would have to be 10 - 12 mm thick? whit ribs. to get to 500 meteres safe.? tried using the design tool on the web paige, but the site dosent work.. Diameter 1 meter. length: 4.5 meters. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 09:26:45 2014 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:26:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1390314405.33717.YahooMailBasic@web140901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> WWW.PSUBS.ORG -> PSUBS Community -> Projects & Photos At left top select "Submitter" and press the "Search" button. Then click "Hank Pronk" in the left menu which will show all his projects in the main window. Click on "Gamma Restoration". Direct link is http://www.psubs.org/projects/1327775450/gammarestoration Jon -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 1/21/14, H?vard Hardy wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Tuesday, January 21, 2014, 3:00 AM where can i see this pictures?:) From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Jan 21 10:11:23 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:11:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, That would be good actually thanks. Im probably going to make a new hatch soon enough. Ive got a spare dish. What are the ribs doing that are underneath the black locking bars? Are they strengtheners for the dish? or part of the latch mechanism? or a bit of both maybe? Regards James On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: > James > Thank you, > If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism. You > would have no trouble replicating it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hank, > Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that > hatch locking mechanism! > > Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. > > Kind regards > James > > On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > > where can i see this pictures?:) > > > 2014/1/21 hank pronk > > Joe, > Thank you, > The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is > reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I > assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when > towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel < > josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: > BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and > what holds it there? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > *From: *Joe Perkel ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > *Sent: *Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM > > Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! > > Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware > referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. > > A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. > > Joe > > On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. > Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took > it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. > Pretty nice set up. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea < > landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote: > Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each > arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting > capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep > the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any > construction pictures of it while you went? > > Rick > > *From:* Alan James > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Wow, well done Hank. > It's great being able to follow the progress. > I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good > collection of subs now. > We could all dive in one. > Alan > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as > promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump > is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked > into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 10:24:41 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 07:24:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, The ribs are for strengthening the dish.? The hatch is quite light, mind you it is only 18in dia.? Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:11:46 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, That would be good actually thanks.? Im probably going to make a new hatch soon enough.? Ive got a spare dish.??? What are the ribs doing that are underneath the black locking bars?? Are they strengtheners for the dish?? or part of the latch mechanism?? or a bit of both maybe? Regards James On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: James >Thank you, >If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism.? You would have no trouble replicating it.?? >Hank? > > > >On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >Hank, >Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? > >Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. > >Kind regards >James > > >On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > >where can i see this pictures?:) >> >> >> >>2014/1/21 hank pronk >> >>Joe, >>>Thank you, >>>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>>From: Joe Perkel ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >>> >>> >>>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >>> >>> >>>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >>> >>> >>>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >>> >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>> >>>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>>Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>>> >>>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>>> >>>>Rick >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Alan James >>>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>> >>>> >>>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>>We could all dive in one. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>>From: hank pronk >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>>Hank >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 10:49:20 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:49:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E4D77B43EDE2-1A88-231D@webmail-m157.sysops.aol.com> The designer tells me that on reflection, he would make some changes should another Nekton ever be built. A thicker forward and aft hemisphere to get away from the cruciform ribbing for one, and a slightly thicker hatch dish to get rid of those tiny ribs, for another. As Hank will tell you, whoever welded those subs up (and I know who it was) wasn't afraid of welding. And a good bit of it could have been avoided with just the changes mentioned. The dished head ribbing was a belt and suspenders approach from a day long before the computer analysis and risk analysis software that is currently available. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 10:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures James, The ribs are for strengthening the dish. The hatch is quite light, mind you it is only 18in dia. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:11:46 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, That would be good actually thanks. Im probably going to make a new hatch soon enough. Ive got a spare dish. What are the ribs doing that are underneath the black locking bars? Are they strengtheners for the dish? or part of the latch mechanism? or a bit of both maybe? Regards James On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: James Thank you, If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism. You would have no trouble replicating it. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Jan 21 11:15:00 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:15:00 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting. What thickness is the hatch? roughly. On 21 January 2014 15:24, hank pronk wrote: > James, > The ribs are for strengthening the dish. The hatch is quite light, mind > you it is only 18in dia. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:11:46 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hank, > That would be good actually thanks. Im probably going to make a new hatch > soon enough. Ive got a spare dish. What are the ribs doing that are > underneath the black locking bars? Are they strengtheners for the dish? > or part of the latch mechanism? or a bit of both maybe? > Regards > James > > On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: > > James > Thank you, > If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism. You > would have no trouble replicating it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hank, > Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that > hatch locking mechanism! > > Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. > > Kind regards > James > > On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > > where can i see this pictures?:) > > > 2014/1/21 hank pronk > > Joe, > Thank you, > The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is > reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I > assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when > towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel < > josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: > BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and > what holds it there? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > *From: *Joe Perkel ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > *Sent: *Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM > > Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! > > Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware > referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. > > A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. > > Joe > > On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. > Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took > it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. > Pretty nice set up. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea < > landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote: > Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each > arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting > capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep > the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any > construction pictures of it while you went? > > Rick > > *From:* Alan James > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Wow, well done Hank. > It's great being able to follow the progress. > I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good > collection of subs now. > We could all dive in one. > Alan > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as > promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump > is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked > into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 11:23:00 2014 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (seaquestor at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:23:00 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Message-ID: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobtravis at comcast.net Tue Jan 21 13:05:43 2014 From: bobtravis at comcast.net (bobtravis at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:05:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> PSUB Group, ? I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat.? The plans call for a number of Bussman fuses?like the "?Bussman fusetron FRN-R 50 AMPS".? I have found these fuses at the local hardware store.? In talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical).? So I went to an electrical warehouse for some advise.? I received a bunch of blank looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your application".?? I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats.? Can anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info?? Will the Bussman fuse work for this application?? And if not, what would be an alternative?? ? Thanks for your help! ? Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 13:54:12 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:54:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390330452.40234.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, The dome is 3/8 or .625 in not that heavy for the depth. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:15:00 AM, James Frankland wrote: Interesting.? What thickness is the hatch?? roughly. On 21 January 2014 15:24, hank pronk wrote: James, >The ribs are for strengthening the dish.? The hatch is quite light, mind you it is only 18in dia.? >Hank > > > >On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:11:46 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >Hank, >That would be good actually thanks.? Im probably going to make a new hatch soon enough.? Ive got a spare dish.??? What are the ribs doing that are underneath the black locking bars?? Are they strengtheners for the dish?? or part of the latch mechanism?? or a bit of both maybe? >Regards >James > > >On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: > >James >>Thank you, >>If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism.? You would have no trouble replicating it.?? >>Hank? >> >> >> >>On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland wrote: >> >>Hank, >>Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? >> >>Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. >> >>Kind regards >>James >> >> >>On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: >> >>where can i see this pictures?:) >>> >>> >>> >>>2014/1/21 hank pronk >>> >>>Joe, >>>>Thank you, >>>>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>>>Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>> >>>>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >>>> >>>>Joe >>>> >>>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Joe Perkel ; >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >>>> >>>> >>>>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >>>> >>>> >>>>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >>>> >>>> >>>>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >>>> >>>> >>>>Joe >>>> >>>>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>>>Hank >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>>>> >>>>>Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>From: Alan James >>>>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>>>We could all dive in one. >>>>>Alan >>>>> >>>>>From: hank pronk >>>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>>>Hank >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 13:58:16 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-)?? The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder.? The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new.? The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic.? They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated.? Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) > > > >2014/1/21 hank pronk > >Joe, >>Thank you, >>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >>From: Joe Perkel ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >> >> >>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >> >> >>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >> >> >>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >> >> >>Joe >> >>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>> >>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>> >>>Rick >>> >>> >>>From: Alan James >>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>We could all dive in one. >>>Alan >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>> >>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 14:16:46 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:16:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390330452.40234.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390268623.48273.YahooMailIosMobile@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1390272167.42698.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390311295.57508.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390317881.73431.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390330452.40234.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E4F4753B0513-2114-3D84@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> Hank, As I remember it, the dome segment for Perry hatches for 1000 foot service are quarter inch nominal. They are, however, heavily reinforced by a large hatch mating ring and by the typical Perry viewport frame, so I guess that's the difference. Steve McQueen had one built, so maybe he'll chime in. As to Gamma, she has a narrow hatch ring, so maybe it just doesn't quite reinforce enough for the thinner material. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures James, The dome is 3/8 or .625 in not that heavy for the depth. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:15:00 AM, James Frankland wrote: Interesting. What thickness is the hatch? roughly. On 21 January 2014 15:24, hank pronk wrote: James, The ribs are for strengthening the dish. The hatch is quite light, mind you it is only 18in dia. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:11:46 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, That would be good actually thanks. Im probably going to make a new hatch soon enough. Ive got a spare dish. What are the ribs doing that are underneath the black locking bars? Are they strengtheners for the dish? or part of the latch mechanism? or a bit of both maybe? Regards James On 21 January 2014 13:34, hank pronk wrote: James Thank you, If you like I can take detail pictures of the hatch latch mechanism. You would have no trouble replicating it. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:52:31 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 14:17:58 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:17:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-) The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder. The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new. The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic. They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Jan 21 15:49:36 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:49:36 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> References: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob, take a look at this document. It might help. www.term.pl/pdf/*bussman*/usa_cale.pdf Steve On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > PSUB Group, > > I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat. The > plans call for a number of Bussman fuses like the " Bussman fusetron FRN-R > 50 AMPS". I have found these fuses at the local hardware store. In > talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were > rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes > sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical). So I went > to an electrical warehouse for some advise. I received a bunch of blank > looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your > application". I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB > website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical > systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats. Can > anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info? Will the Bussman > fuse work for this application? And if not, what would be an alternative? > > Thanks for your help! > > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Jan 21 15:53:30 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:53:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: References: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob, sorry the path did not link well. Try this one. https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=F1mKUqqPEYjt4gTmxoH4Aw&ved=0CBQQ1S4#q=www.term.pl%2Fpdf%2Fbussman%2Fusa_cale.pdf On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > Bob, take a look at this document. It might help. > www.term.pl/pdf/*bussman*/usa_cale.pdf > > Steve > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > >> PSUB Group, >> >> I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat. The >> plans call for a number of Bussman fuses like the " Bussman fusetron FRN-R >> 50 AMPS". I have found these fuses at the local hardware store. In >> talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were >> rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes >> sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical). So I went >> to an electrical warehouse for some advise. I received a bunch of blank >> looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your >> application". I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB >> website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical >> systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats. Can >> anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info? Will the Bussman >> fuse work for this application? And if not, what would be an alternative? >> >> Thanks for your help! >> >> Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Jan 21 16:15:49 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:15:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: References: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob, long story short the fuse you mentioned is rated for 250 VAC or 125 VDC (or less) applications. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdatasheet.octopart.com%2FFRN-R15-Bussman-datas On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > Bob, sorry the path did not link well. Try this one. > > > https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=F1mKUqqPEYjt4gTmxoH4Aw&ved=0CBQQ1S4#q=www.term.pl%2Fpdf%2Fbussman%2Fusa_cale.pdf > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > >> Bob, take a look at this document. It might help. >> www.term.pl/pdf/*bussman*/usa_cale.pdf >> >> Steve >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:05 PM, wrote: >> >>> PSUB Group, >>> >>> I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat. The >>> plans call for a number of Bussman fuses like the " Bussman fusetron FRN-R >>> 50 AMPS". I have found these fuses at the local hardware store. In >>> talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were >>> rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes >>> sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical). So I went >>> to an electrical warehouse for some advise. I received a bunch of blank >>> looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your >>> application". I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB >>> website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical >>> systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats. Can >>> anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info? Will the Bussman >>> fuse work for this application? And if not, what would be an alternative? >>> >>> Thanks for your help! >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 16:19:18 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:19:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone.? I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines.? I won't mention any names? :-) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-)?? The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder.? The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new.? The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic.? They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated.? Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) > > > >2014/1/21 hank pronk > >Joe, >>Thank you, >>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> From: Joe Perkel ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >> >> >>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >> >> >>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >> >> >>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >> >> >>Joe >> >>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>> >>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>> >>>Rick >>> >>> >>>From: Alan James >>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>We could all dive in one. >>>Alan >>> >>> From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>> >>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobtravis at comcast.net Tue Jan 21 16:23:08 2014 From: bobtravis at comcast.net (Bob Travis) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:23:08 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: References: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <891F5388-D2BD-4408-9762-DB1D987D424F@comcast.net> Thanks Steve! I am digging through this now. And does that mean the Bussman would work since it's rated up to 125VDC? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 21, 2014, at 1:15 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > > Bob, long story short the fuse you mentioned is rated for 250 VAC or 125 VDC (or less) applications. > > http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdatasheet.octopart.com%2FFRN-R15-Bussman-datas > > > > >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: >> Bob, sorry the path did not link well. Try this one. >> >> https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=F1mKUqqPEYjt4gTmxoH4Aw&ved=0CBQQ1S4#q=www.term.pl%2Fpdf%2Fbussman%2Fusa_cale.pdf >> >> >>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: >>> Bob, take a look at this document. It might help. >>> www.term.pl/pdf/bussman/usa_cale.pdf >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:05 PM, wrote: >>>> PSUB Group, >>>> >>>> I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat. The plans call for a number of Bussman fuses like the " Bussman fusetron FRN-R 50 AMPS". I have found these fuses at the local hardware store. In talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical). So I went to an electrical warehouse for some advise. I received a bunch of blank looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your application". I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats. Can anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info? Will the Bussman fuse work for this application? And if not, what would be an alternative? >>>> >>>> Thanks for your help! >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Jan 21 18:38:45 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:38:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bussman fuse for K boat In-Reply-To: <891F5388-D2BD-4408-9762-DB1D987D424F@comcast.net> References: <293979029.21965093.1390327017519.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <395236627.21973469.1390327543320.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <891F5388-D2BD-4408-9762-DB1D987D424F@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes it is acceptable for your application of 36VDC. On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Bob Travis wrote: > Thanks Steve! I am digging through this now. And does that mean the > Bussman would work since it's rated up to 125VDC? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 21, 2014, at 1:15 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > > Bob, long story short the fuse you mentioned is rated for 250 VAC or 125 > VDC (or less) applications. > > > http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdatasheet.octopart.com%2FFRN-R15-Bussman-datas > > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > >> Bob, sorry the path did not link well. Try this one. >> >> >> https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=F1mKUqqPEYjt4gTmxoH4Aw&ved=0CBQQ1S4#q=www.term.pl%2Fpdf%2Fbussman%2Fusa_cale.pdf >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: >> >>> Bob, take a look at this document. It might help. >>> www.term.pl/pdf/*bussman*/usa_cale.pdf >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:05 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> PSUB Group, >>>> >>>> I have a few questions about the electrical plans for the K boat. The >>>> plans call for a number of Bussman fuses like the " Bussman fusetron FRN-R >>>> 50 AMPS". I have found these fuses at the local hardware store. In >>>> talking with the electrical guy there, he indicated that these fuses were >>>> rated for a 120V AC application and not for a 36 V DC system (which makes >>>> sense to me but I know very little about anything electrical). So I went >>>> to an electrical warehouse for some advise. I received a bunch of blank >>>> looks and a "sorry, we can't help you with any fuses for your >>>> application". I did some searches through the archives on the PSUB >>>> website and found some very interesting discussions about electrical >>>> systems, but nothing about the fuses that were used with the K Boats. Can >>>> anyone direct me to where I might find some of this info? Will the Bussman >>>> fuse work for this application? And if not, what would be an alternative? >>>> >>>> Thanks for your help! >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 19:29:54 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:29:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone. I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines. I won't mention any names :-) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-) The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder. The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new. The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic. They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 19:37:19 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:37:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, It is pretty busy inside the mbt now and the hyd lines travel through the cutter, so it is easy to lose track of them.? That's my story and I am sticking to it.? :- ) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:29:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone.? I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines.? I won't mention any names? :-) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-)?? The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder.? The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new.? The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic.? They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated.? Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) > > > >2014/1/21 hank pronk > >Joe, >>Thank you, >>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> >> >> From: Joe Perkel ; >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >> >> >>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >> >> >>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >> >> >>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >> >> >>Joe >> >>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>> >>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>> >>>Rick >>> >>> >>>From: Alan James >>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>We could all dive in one. >>>Alan >>> >>> From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>> >>> >>> >>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 19:56:22 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:56:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E523E7069EFA-6C4-6813@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> Roger that. Good tactic. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, It is pretty busy inside the mbt now and the hyd lines travel through the cutter, so it is easy to lose track of them. That's my story and I am sticking to it. :- ) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:29:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone. I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines. I won't mention any names :-) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-) The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder. The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new. The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic. They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Jan 21 21:19:49 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:19:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E52F8F4550F2-1628-6D08@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> Hey Hank, My experience routing lines, cables, wires, etc. falls into two categories: (a) those where I color-coded them (both ends and points between). (b) those where I wish I had color-coded them. When I picked up the motor home from a shop once the driver's power window wouldn't go down. I then pressed "Up" and it worked fine. Thanks for pics and the narrative; looking forward to seeing Gamma in the flesh sometime. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, It is pretty busy inside the mbt now and the hyd lines travel through the cutter, so it is easy to lose track of them. That's my story and I am sticking to it. :- ) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:29:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Vance, The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone. I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines. I won't mention any names :-) Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank, Did you move the solenoid package inside? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures David, thanks' your correct, I get after it :-) The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder. The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new. The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic. They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated. Hank On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. Best Regards, David Colombo SeaQuestor Industries 804 College Ave. Santa Rosa, CA. 707.536.1424 James Frankland wrote: Hank, Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism! Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. Kind regards James On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: where can i see this pictures?:) 2014/1/21 hank pronk Joe, Thank you, The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Joe Perkel ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. Joe On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. Pretty nice set up. Hank On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures Wow, well done Hank. It's great being able to follow the progress. I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. We could all dive in one. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 02:14:45 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:14:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: <8D0E52F8F4550F2-1628-6D08@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52F8F4550F2-1628-6D08@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: >From the looks of your photos you're doing an excellent job Hank. I look forward to meeting you (and your submersible) in person. ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:19 PM, wrote: > Hey Hank, > > My experience routing lines, cables, wires, etc. falls into two categories: > (a) those where I color-coded them (both ends and points between). > (b) those where I wish I had color-coded them. > > When I picked up the motor home from a shop once the driver's power window > wouldn't go down. I then pressed "Up" and it worked fine. > > Thanks for pics and the narrative; looking forward to seeing Gamma in the > flesh sometime. > > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 6:37 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Vance, > It is pretty busy inside the mbt now and the hyd lines travel through the > cutter, so it is easy to lose track of them. That's my story and I am > sticking to it. :- ) > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:29:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it > myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Vance, > The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone. > I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb > ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines. I > won't mention any names :-) > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > Hank, > Did you move the solenoid package inside? > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > David, > thanks' your correct, I get after it :-) The hydraulic cylinder on the > side of the sub is the swing cylinder. The hydraulic cylinder at the base > of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new. The > cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic. They work well for > this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd > system is not compensated. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" < > seaquestor at gmail.com> wrote: > Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the > hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your > using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. > > *Best Regards,* > *David Colombo* > *SeaQuestor Industries* > > *804 College Ave.* > *Santa Rosa, CA.* > *707.536.1424 <707.536.1424>* > > > > > > > > James Frankland wrote: > > Hank, > Gamma looks fantastic! Youve done a great job. Im so jealous of that > hatch locking mechanism! > > Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects. Look for Gamma, or Hank. > > Kind regards > James > > On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > > where can i see this pictures?:) > > > 2014/1/21 hank pronk > > Joe, > Thank you, > The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way. There is > reference in the operating information to remove the retaining strap. I > assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way. As for when > towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel < > josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote: > BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what > holds it there? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > *From: *Joe Perkel ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > *Sent: *Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM > > Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! > > Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware > referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands. > > A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. > > Joe > > On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. > Rick, the arm came with the sub. I rebuilt it, that simply means I took > it apart and painted it. I put new seals and rods in the cylinders. > Pretty nice set up. > Hank > > > On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea < > landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net> wrote: > Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each > arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting > capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep > the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any > construction pictures of it while you went? > > Rick > > *From:* Alan James > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > Wow, well done Hank. > It's great being able to follow the progress. > I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good > collection of subs now. > We could all dive in one. > Alan > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as > promised. I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump > is not pumping oil. I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked > into the pump, that will be an easy fix. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 02:57:51 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:57:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames Message-ID: <1390377471.89046.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have a couple of questions reference external framing. The K350 conning tower reinforcement ring straddles three frames.

If moving frames outside, what is to be done with those three frames? Or should they be left in place?

I notice Gamma has two internal frames and what could be described as a conning tower skirt as opposed to a ring.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 07:45:54 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:45:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames In-Reply-To: <1390377471.89046.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390377471.89046.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E58705EAEC90-D74-8813@webmail-m268.sysops.aol.com> Look at pics of the PC-8/14. The rings land on the reinforcement collar. I think they are on 19" centers on the 8-window conning tower boats (28"OD tower) and 15" centers on the 6-window boats (24"OD tower). On the other hand, Aquarius and Curasub, along with all the Nektons have no bisected ring at the conning tower centerline at all. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 2:58 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames I have a couple of questions reference external framing. The K350 conning tower reinforcement ring straddles three frames. If moving frames outside, what is to be done with those three frames? Or should they be left in place? I notice Gamma has two internal frames and what could be described as a conning tower skirt as opposed to a ring. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 22 08:24:45 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 05:24:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures In-Reply-To: References: <1390330696.77637.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E4F4A0946189-2114-3DB6@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> <1390339158.83407.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52034A4737A-6C4-65C1@webmail-m167.sysops.aol.com> <1390351039.33660.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E52F8F4550F2-1628-6D08@webmail-m170.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390397085.36116.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Douglas, Jim Thank you Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 12:15:08 AM, Douglas Suhr wrote: From the looks of your photos you're doing an excellent job Hank. I look forward to meeting you (and your submersible) in person. ~ Douglas S.? On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:19 PM, wrote: Hey Hank, >? >My experience routing lines, cables, wires, etc. falls into two categories: >????(a) those where I color-coded them (both ends and points between). >????(b) those where I wish?I had color-coded them. >? >When I picked up the motor home from a shop once the driver's?power window wouldn't go down.? I then pressed "Up" and it worked fine. >? >Thanks for pics and the narrative; looking forward to seeing?Gamma in the flesh sometime. >? >Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 6:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > >Vance, >It is pretty busy inside the mbt now and the hyd lines travel through the cutter, so it is easy to lose track of them.? That's my story and I am sticking to it.? :- ) >Hank > > > >On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 5:29:54 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >First time I ever heard of a mix-up with hydraulic lines. Never did it myself, of course. Never admitted to it, anyway. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > >Vance, >The solenoid package is inside the front mbt right behind the nose cone.? I just finished sorting out the hydraulic issue and it seems that some dumb ass that put the hyd lines to the valve assembly mixed up two lines.? I won't mention any names? :-) >Hank > > > >On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:18:32 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: > >Hank, >Did you move the solenoid package inside? >Vance > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:58 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures > > >David, >thanks' your correct, I get after it :-)?? The hydraulic cylinder on the side of the sub is the swing cylinder.? The hydraulic cylinder at the base of the arm in the front is the jettisoning cylinder and it is new.? The cylinders in the arm are air cylinders not hydraulic.? They work well for this application because they have o-ring seals witch is good if your hyd system is not compensated.? >Hank > > > >On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:23:00 AM, "seaquestor at gmail.com" wrote: > >Hank, All I can say is Wow!!! You don't mess around. Great job. Is the hydraulic ram on the exterior arm new? What is the manufacture / model your using. I need steering control on my rear thrusters. > > >Best Regards, >David Colombo >SeaQuestor Industries > > >804 College Ave. >Santa Rosa, CA. >707.536.1424 > > > > > > > > > > > >James Frankland wrote: > > >Hank, >Gamma?looks fantastic!? Youve done a great job.? Im so jealous of that hatch locking mechanism!? > >Havard, pics are on psubs.org in projects.? Look for Gamma, or Hank. > >Kind regards >James > > >On 21 January 2014 08:00, H?vard Hardy wrote: > >where can i see this pictures?:) >> >> >> >>2014/1/21 hank pronk >> >>Joe, >>>Thank you, >>>The arm is swung into a parallel position when under way.? There is reference in the?operating information to remove the retaining strap.? I assume when in transport the arm is secured in some way.? As for when towing, the hydraulic cylinder that controls swing will hold it strait.? >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:44:06 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>BTW, how flush does that arm fold against the hull for towing and what holds it there? >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> From: Joe Perkel ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 1:08:28 AM >>> >>> >>>Hank your commitment and results are an inspiration! >>> >>> >>>Kudos also to Vance for insuring that a piece of historical hardware referenced in the Busby text, went to your very capable hands.? >>> >>> >>>A decision I'm certain was not arbitrary. >>> >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>On Jan 20, 2014, at 5:27 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>> >>>Thanks' guys, I am pretty pleased with how it is turning out. >>>>Rick, the arm came with the sub.? I rebuilt it, that simply means I took it apart and painted it.? I put new seals and rods in the cylinders.? Pretty?nice set up. >>>>Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:20:59 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>>> >>>>Impressive looking manipulator! How did you figure out how long each arm should be, size rams, claw construction, what will be the lifting capacity of the arm fully extended? did you make a VBT up forward to keep the sub trimmed while picking up a load? What are the arms made of? any construction pictures of it while you went? >>>> >>>>Rick >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Alan James >>>>Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:08 PM >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>> >>>> >>>>Wow, well done Hank. >>>>It's great being able to follow the progress. >>>>I think we should have a psub conference at your place. You have a good collection of subs now. >>>>We could all dive in one. >>>>Alan >>>> >>>> From: hank pronk >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:14 AM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new Gamma pictures >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I just posted four new pictures showing my progress of gamma as promised.? I was hoping to operate the manipulator today but the hyd pump is not pumping oil.? I am hoping the oil is to heavy and cold to get sucked into the pump, that will be an easy fix. >>>>Hank >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Wed Jan 22 11:00:31 2014 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:00:31 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames In-Reply-To: <1390377471.89046.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390377471.89046.YahooMailIosMobile@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66C2E77E-E569-45B8-BC02-DA07BE1D64AF@AOL.com> The skirt on the Nektons is an extended doubler plate. No longer legal as a nozzle reinforcement. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:57 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I have a couple of questions reference external framing. The K350 conning tower reinforcement ring straddles three frames. > > If moving frames outside, what is to be done with those three frames? Or should they be left in place? > > I notice Gamma has two internal frames and what could be described as a conning tower skirt as opposed to a ring. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 12:38:13 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames In-Reply-To: <66C2E77E-E569-45B8-BC02-DA07BE1D64AF@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1390412293.18403.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance,

I don't have a pic or drawing of PC8 without the MBT's, but there is one of PC 14 in the Busby text with the rings as you described. Now I see how to place them and the rationale where the shell is concerned as opposed to having anything to do with the CT ring itself. Moving these outside really opens up the inside dramatically.

I suppose one could do an erector set type tubular AL frame inside wherever equipment has to be hung ala Alvin's birdcage.

Thanks Vance, that reference to PC 14 was helpful!


Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 12:54:26 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:54:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames In-Reply-To: <1390412293.18403.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390412293.18403.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E5B21F779882-28F0-B3F2@webmail-m131.sysops.aol.com> As to mounting things inside, we machined about a jillion little lugs to weld here and there on the inner hull. Half inch SS rod drilled and tapped for 1/4 20, each about 3/4" long. All the manifolds and gauges and whatnot were assembled on flat panels which were then screwed to the lugs. Once in, all you have to do is bend tubing to hook everything up and you're done. It's a nice way to do things, utilitarian, easy to maintain (and leak check), and dead simple when it comes time to paint or whatever. We used airtight zero boxes for the electrical distribution and so on. They mounted the same way (usually bolted through from the inside with rubber washers for a clean installation). All this is/was done on paper first, so the weld shop could just measure it out, and then the mounting holes were matched and drilled in the fab shop during outfitting (that would be me doing a whole lot of that in the pictures). A bit time consuming, but simple as pie. I prefer this kind of thing to slick flush-mounted everything style panels, primarily because it is so simple to maintain. And as a side note, panel mounted valves don't stress fittings and tubing when operated, so that was another plus, operationally speaking. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames Vance, I don't have a pic or drawing of PC8 without the MBT's, but there is one of PC 14 in the Busby text with the rings as you described. Now I see how to place them and the rationale where the shell is concerned as opposed to having anything to do with the CT ring itself. Moving these outside really opens up the inside dramatically. I suppose one could do an erector set type tubular AL frame inside wherever equipment has to be hung ala Alvin's birdcage. Thanks Vance, that reference to PC 14 was helpful! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Vance Bradley ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:00:31 PM The skirt on the Nektons is an extended doubler plate. No longer legal as a nozzle reinforcement. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:57 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: I have a couple of questions reference external framing. The K350 conning tower reinforcement ring straddles three frames. If moving frames outside, what is to be done with those three frames? Or should they be left in place? I notice Gamma has two internal frames and what could be described as a conning tower skirt as opposed to a ring. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 22 13:50:36 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:50:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Message-ID: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork.? It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 14:05:39 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E5BC13308986-D50-B433@webmail-va023.sysops.aol.com> Practice makes perfect. Try tying a bowline in some wet rope. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 1:51 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 14:16:47 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:16:47 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130D27D1-41FA-44DF-8D94-9FC83DD741A9@yahoo.com> That's cool! Now, set the lighting with a shot over your shoulder in "The Thinker" position with Gamma moving a chess piece on a board, and you have a frame able wall portrait. Joe On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:50 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 14:42:24 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:42:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390419744.18793.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sounds like a great thing to do if you've just had an argument with your wife. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:50 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork.? It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Jan 22 14:51:06 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:51:06 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <130D27D1-41FA-44DF-8D94-9FC83DD741A9@yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <130D27D1-41FA-44DF-8D94-9FC83DD741A9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd buy a ticket to do that if you were selling 'em. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:16 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > That's cool! > > Now, set the lighting with a shot over your shoulder in "The Thinker" position with Gamma moving a chess piece on a board, and you have a frame able wall portrait. > > Joe > >> On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:50 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >> Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 14:57:32 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:57:32 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, to indicate diving and surfacing! Best, Alec On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light > pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that > does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Wed Jan 22 15:25:37 2014 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14BB4EEC-5AE2-4272-99DA-2EC66241166D@AOL.com> There is a technical term, especially if you do it alone all the time. Manipubation. I hear you can go blind if you do it too much. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, to indicate diving and surfacing! > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, that does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Wed Jan 22 16:03:20 2014 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:03:20 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From greg at snyderemail.com Wed Jan 22 16:34:39 2014 From: greg at snyderemail.com (greg at snyderemail.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:34:39 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <14BB4EEC-5AE2-4272-99DA-2EC66241166D@AOL.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14BB4EEC-5AE2-4272-99DA-2EC66241166D@AOL.com> Message-ID: HAHA! Funny stuff... I spent 30 minutes at Target once waiting on my wife using two of those "reach the top shelf" grippers while sitting IN a shopping cart with one of my kids. We were playing "submarine". I guess that would make me a public manipubator... Happy new Year one and all! Greg There is a technical term, especially if you do it alone all the time. Manipubation. I hear you can go blind if you do it too much. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, to > indicate diving and surfacing! > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM, hank pronk > wrote: > Okay, just because I sit in my submarine in a dark shop with a light > pointing on the floor picking up water bottles with the manipulator, > that does not make me a dork. It is very necessary practice, isn't it ? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 22 16:36:51 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:36:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 17:09:13 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:09:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 18:34:35 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? ? ?You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof ?to add a bit of realism. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 22 18:43:56 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:43:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? ? ?You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof ?to add a bit of realism. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 21:41:57 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:41:57 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames In-Reply-To: <8D0E5B21F779882-28F0-B3F2@webmail-m131.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390412293.18403.YahooMailIosMobile@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5B21F779882-28F0-B3F2@webmail-m131.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3862F183-D6F5-42FC-BF6C-3BF45019E0E3@yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, this goes in my keep file as a reminder. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Jan 22, 2014, at 12:54 PM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > As to mounting things inside, we machined about a jillion little lugs to weld here and there on the inner hull. Half inch SS rod drilled and tapped for 1/4 20, each about 3/4" long. All the manifolds and gauges and whatnot were assembled on flat panels which were then screwed to the lugs. Once in, all you have to do is bend tubing to hook everything up and you're done. It's a nice way to do things, utilitarian, easy to maintain (and leak check), and dead simple when it comes time to paint or whatever. We used airtight zero boxes for the electrical distribution and so on. They mounted the same way (usually bolted through from the inside with rubber washers for a clean installation). All this is/was done on paper first, so the weld shop could just measure it out, and then the mounting holes were matched and drilled in the fab shop during outfitting (that would be me doing a whole lot of that in the pictures). A bit time consuming, but simple as pie. I prefer this kind of thing to slick flush-mounted everything style panels, primarily because it is so simple to maintain. And as a side note, panel mounted valves don't stress fittings and tubing when operated, so that was another plus, operationally speaking. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 12:39 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames > > Vance, > > I don't have a pic or drawing of PC8 without the MBT's, but there is one of PC 14 in the Busby text with the rings as you described. Now I see how to place them and the rationale where the shell is concerned as opposed to having anything to do with the CT ring itself. Moving these outside really opens up the inside dramatically. > > I suppose one could do an erector set type tubular AL frame inside wherever equipment has to be hung ala Alvin's birdcage. > > Thanks Vance, that reference to PC 14 was helpful! > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Vance Bradley ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External Frames > Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:00:31 PM > > The skirt on the Nektons is an extended doubler plate. No longer legal as a nozzle reinforcement. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:57 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> >> I have a couple of questions reference external framing. The K350 conning tower reinforcement ring straddles three frames. >> >> If moving frames outside, what is to be done with those three frames? Or should they be left in place? >> >> I notice Gamma has two internal frames and what could be described as a conning tower skirt as opposed to a ring. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 01:45:17 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:45:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Electrical Equipment Part 1 Message-ID: <1390459517.49239.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry I'm going to short change you in this summary. I am just covering the?electrical rules for submersibles which are an adjunct & take priority over the G.L. rules "Electrical Installations," (190 pages), which ?cover all sea going ships. If you know how to?design your 1 person submersible to G.L. electrical standards, you should be able to do the same for a?480 meter long super tanker. ? ?The materials used in construction of electrical machines, cables & apparatus are to be resistant to moist & salty sea air, seawater & oil vapors. They aren't allowed to be hygroscopic & have to be flame resistant & self-extinguishing. ? ?Materials with high tracking resistance are to be used to support live parts. ? ?Pressure hull wall penetrators, underwater plug connectors & appliances directly connected to bus bars are designed for the next higher nominal insulation rating. ? ?Materials & insulation for electrical equipment used in water are assessed case by case. ? ?Networks with earthed neutrals aren't permitted. Max of 50 volts for mobile appliances used in confined or damp spaces.? ? ?Chapter 2 section 11 B provides IP rating requirements for various electrical equipment. This section also provides dimensional rules for protective conductors. ? ?All electrical equipment essential for the safety of the submersible & it's crew is to be connected to? an independent main & emergency power supply system. ? ?The main power source has to consist of at least 2 mutually independent, redundant power generating systems. Exceptions may be permitted for vehicles with restricted range of service or accompanied by a support ship. I am not sure whether this means that if you have a 24V system, that you could have 2 banks of 24V & draw from them simultaneously or 1 bank at a time if required. To be continued..... Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 05:31:13 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:31:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle Message-ID: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts ?when pressurized?with air.? Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Jan 23 08:17:20 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle In-Reply-To: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E654947EDA6A-1670-84A@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Thanks, Alan, I wasn't able to view the videos within the link, however I opened Youtube, searched "Air muscle" and was able to see one of them that way as well as others. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 4:31 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts when pressurized with air. Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 08:26:16 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:26:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle In-Reply-To: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390483576.86305.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I could not find the air muscle area in the site.? I assume it is the same idea as an air bag in truck suspension.? There are two problems with using air bags in underwater service.? You could only use the bag at one depth at a time because the air would expand or compress at different depths.? You could deflate the bag then change depth and start over.? In an arm application the bag would be erratic to operate, it would have a bounce to it.? Mind you the deeper you went the less bounce because there would be more resistance.? The bag system would be good for leak resistance, but what do you do with the return air.? You would have to dump it overboard.? I did look at air powering an arm, both direct air to cylinder and air over hydraulic.? My uneducated conclusion was, to complicated and not much duration.? My log salvage rov had an air powered grapple.? We did that for speed and environmental issues.? We had a constant air supply to the rov though. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:31:33 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts ?when pressurized?with air.? Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 08:42:04 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:42:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle In-Reply-To: <1390483576.86305.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390483576.86305.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390484524.41495.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I also just had a look on youtube,? that is pretty cool.? I see they took the bounce out by encasing the bag in a stretchy sock.? Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:26:16 AM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, I could not find the air muscle area in the site.? I assume it is the same idea as an air bag in truck suspension.? There are two problems with using air bags in underwater service.? You could only use the bag at one depth at a time because the air would expand or compress at different depths.? You could deflate the bag then change depth and start over.? In an arm application the bag would be erratic to operate, it would have a bounce to it.? Mind you the deeper you went the less bounce because there would be more resistance.? The bag system would be good for leak resistance, but what do you do with the return air.? You would have to dump it overboard.? I did look at air powering an arm, both direct air to cylinder and air over hydraulic.? My uneducated conclusion was, to complicated and not much duration.? My log salvage rov had an air powered grapple.? We did that for speed and environmental issues.? We had a constant air supply to the rov though. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:31:33 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts ?when pressurized?with air.? Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at pettersen-prod.com Thu Jan 23 08:47:34 2014 From: jon at pettersen-prod.com (Jon Eide Pettersen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:47:34 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Message-ID: Hi! I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) Regards, Jon Eide Pettersen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 09:10:04 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:10:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jon, Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling motors. Best, Alec On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: > Hi! > > I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a > magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for > electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. > > I'm posting my progress at my personal website, > http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. > > Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in > the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge > needed :) > > > Regards, > Jon Eide Pettersen > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 10:16:30 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:16:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built by a competent home machinist. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Hi Jon, Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling motors. Best, Alec On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: Hi! I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) Regards, Jon Eide Pettersen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 10:17:11 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0E66552D8E286-1A00-1218@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> Looking good, Jon. Very interesting. Thanks for chiming in here. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Eide Pettersen To: Psubs org Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:48 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Hi! I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) Regards, Jon Eide Pettersen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at pettersen-prod.com Thu Jan 23 13:21:48 2014 From: jon at pettersen-prod.com (Jon Eide Pettersen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 19:21:48 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the kind words! The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the narrowest. Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the commercial DPVs made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the propeller kit is 67$. I bought it directly from dive-x here: http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and that the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are plastic and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or entanglement. The scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop in case this happens. Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used by dive-x: http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They also have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would be suitable for use in a submersible? http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg - Jon Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: > And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and > drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built > by a competent home machinist. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project > > Hi Jon, > > Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we > recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick > question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) > is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those > to trolling motors. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen > > wrote: > > Hi! > > I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle > with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC > motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries > coupled in series. > > I'm posting my progress at my personal website, > http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. > > Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a > submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the > funding and knowledge needed :) > > > Regards, > Jon Eide Pettersen > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 13:33:08 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:33:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1390501988.14574.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Look at that! We agonized over these very components and I spent many hours spinning my wheels for nothing. This is a gold mine!

I second Alec's comments, well done site and documentation,

Fabulous leads Jon, thank you and welcome!


Joe


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 14:02:17 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle In-Reply-To: <1390484524.41495.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390483576.86305.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390484524.41495.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390503737.86784.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Jim & Hank, there are lots of good examples if you do an image search on air muscle or fluidic muscle. And yes Hank you would have to dump the air either back in to the hull for small one off operations, or out a through hull. Some other applications might be the opening of the lid of a sample bin, or pan & tilt mechanism for lights or camera. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle Alan, I also just had a look on youtube,? that is pretty cool.? I see they took the bounce out by encasing the bag in a stretchy sock.? Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:26:16 AM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, I could not find the air muscle area in the site.? I assume it is the same idea as an air bag in truck suspension.? There are two problems with using air bags in underwater service.? You could only use the bag at one depth at a time because the air would expand or compress at different depths.? You could deflate the bag then change depth and start over.? In an arm application the bag would be erratic to operate, it would have a bounce to it.? Mind you the deeper you went the less bounce because there would be more resistance.? The bag system would be good for leak resistance, but what do you do with the return air.? You would have to dump it overboard.? I did look at air powering an arm, both direct air to cylinder and air over hydraulic.? My uneducated conclusion was, to complicated and not much duration.? My log salvage rov had an air powered grapple.? We did that for speed and environmental issues.? We had a constant air supply to the rov though. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:31:33 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts ?when pressurized?with air.? Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 14:10:46 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:10:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0E685F475C5A4-1848-3057@webmail-d203.sysops.aol.com> Jon, Might as well ask. What's your total investment going to be? This looks like a pretty good experimental option for subs, at the very least. I'm with you on the motors. It will be interesting to see just how tough they are. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Eide Pettersen To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Thanks for the kind words! The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the narrowest. Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the commercial DPVs made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the propeller kit is 67$. I bought it directly from dive-x here: http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and that the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are plastic and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or entanglement. The scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop in case this happens. Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used by dive-x:http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They also have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would be suitable for use in a submersible?http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg - Jon Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built by a competent home machinist. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Hi Jon, Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling motors. Best, Alec On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: Hi! I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) Regards, Jon Eide Pettersen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 14:17:35 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle In-Reply-To: <1390503737.86784.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390473073.99234.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390483576.86305.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390484524.41495.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390503737.86784.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390504655.54254.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, pretty impressive stuff, I like it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:02:17 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi Jim & Hank, there are lots of good examples if you do an image search on air muscle or fluidic muscle. And yes Hank you would have to dump the air either back in to the hull for small one off operations, or out a through hull. Some other applications might be the opening of the lid of a sample bin, or pan & tilt mechanism for lights or camera. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Muscle Alan, I also just had a look on youtube,? that is pretty cool.? I see they took the bounce out by encasing the bag in a stretchy sock.? Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:26:16 AM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, I could not find the air muscle area in the site.? I assume it is the same idea as an air bag in truck suspension.? There are two problems with using air bags in underwater service.? You could only use the bag at one depth at a time because the air would expand or compress at different depths.? You could deflate the bag then change depth and start over.? In an arm application the bag would be erratic to operate, it would have a bounce to it.? Mind you the deeper you went the less bounce because there would be more resistance.? The bag system would be good for leak resistance, but what do you do with the return air.? You would have to dump it overboard.? I did look at air powering an arm, both direct air to cylinder and air over hydraulic.? My uneducated conclusion was, to complicated and not much duration.? My log salvage rov had an air powered grapple.? We did that for speed and environmental issues.? We had a constant air supply to the rov though. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:31:33 AM, Alan James wrote: Hi Psubbers, was looking through a robotics book & came across an actuator called an "air muscle". It's basically a balloon with attachments on either end that contracts ?when pressurized?with air.? Here is an instructable on how to make one. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/?ALLSTEPS They are a cheap alternative to a pneumatic cylinder & can generate more lifting force in the 3&1/2 to 6 bar range. As we all carry compressed air, I thought there may be some application that it could be useful for, such as opening the ballast valves remotely or releasing emergency buoys etc. They are used on robotic arms, so perhaps a manipulator could be, or has been made with them. Anybody had any experience with them??? I also found them under fluidic muscle. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 14:26:41 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:26:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: <1390501988.14574.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390501988.14574.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As soon as I saw the pictures I recognized the prop and shroud as the very ones we'd been trying to source! I keep spotting these adjustable props on DPVs but just didn't know where to get them as spares. :) Alec On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Look at that! We agonized over these very components and I spent many > hours spinning my wheels for nothing. This is a gold mine! > > I second Alec's comments, well done site and documentation, > > Fabulous leads Jon, thank you and welcome! > > > Joe > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Jon Eide Pettersen ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project > * Sent: * Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:21:48 PM > > Thanks for the kind words! > > The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the narrowest. > Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the commercial DPVs > made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the propeller kit is 67$. > I bought it directly from dive-x here: > http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. > > A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and that > the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are plastic > and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or entanglement. The > scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop in case this happens. > Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used by dive-x: > http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf > > I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the > build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They also > have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would be > suitable for use in a submersible? > http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg > > > - Jon > > > Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: > > And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and drive? > It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built by a > competent home machinist. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project > > Hi Jon, > > Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we > recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick > question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and > how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling > motors. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen < > jon at pettersen-prod.com> wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a >> magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for >> electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. >> >> I'm posting my progress at my personal website, >> http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. >> >> Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in >> the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge >> needed :) >> >> >> Regards, >> Jon Eide Pettersen >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 14:27:10 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:27:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-sadsmile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 15:51:38 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390510298.34294.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Rick, Same 54 deg here in Miami, 29 in Sebring last week! It's been horrible I had to break out the sweaters too. A few more degrees south and our respective Governors should seek Federal relief dollars :) Joe On Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:27 PM, Land N Sea wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? ?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Thu Jan 23 16:20:49 2014 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:20:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: > I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. > I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. > I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > > Rick > > From: hank pronk > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > Alan, > Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hank, > can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against > it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? > You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. > Alan > > > > From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) > Hank > > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > > to indicate diving and surfacing! > You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used > to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making > airplane-engine noises. > > > M > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at pettersen-prod.com Thu Jan 23 16:24:11 2014 From: jon at pettersen-prod.com (Jon Eide Pettersen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:24:11 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: <8D0E685F475C5A4-1848-3057@webmail-d203.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> <8D0E685F475C5A4-1848-3057@webmail-d203.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Vance, The motor and controller was 244$ including shipping, duct and shroud was around 200$ including shipping and import fee. Magnets, bearings and sensors were around 100$ in total I think. Batteries will be around 125$, and I spent 80$ on delrin. The tube which is the main body was kindly donated from a business that liked my project, and the aluminium stock I was lucky have left over from a previous project. Keep in mind that Norway is quite expensive so some of the parts are propably cheaper elsewhere. Anyway, I think a total of 750$ sounds right. The motor is probably intented for some kind of industrial use, as it is very heavy and thick-walled. Here is a thread from endless-sphere with some pics and testing of the 800w edition: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=45443&sid=c3f78cf1221ba9251d90820d229764e1 - Jon Den 23.01.2014 20:10, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: > Jon, > Might as well ask. What's your total investment going to be? This > looks like a pretty good experimental option for subs, at the very > least. I'm with you on the motors. It will be interesting to see just > how tough they are. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Eide Pettersen > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 1:24 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project > > Thanks for the kind words! > > The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the > narrowest. Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the > commercial DPVs made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the > propeller kit is 67$. I bought it directly from dive-x here: > http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. > > A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and > that the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are > plastic and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or > entanglement. The scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop > in case this happens. Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used > by dive-x: > http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf > > I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the > build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They > also have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would > be suitable for use in a submersible? > http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg > > > - Jon > > > Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: >> And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and >> drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built >> by a competent home machinist. >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alec Smyth >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since >> we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. >> Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka >> shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about >> adapting those to trolling motors. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen >> > wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle >> with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC >> motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries >> coupled in series. >> >> I'm posting my progress at my personal website, >> http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. >> >> Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a >> submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the >> funding and knowledge needed :) >> >> >> Regards, >> Jon Eide Pettersen >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 17:05:46 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:05:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> <8D0E685F475C5A4-1848-3057@webmail-d203.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0E69E66C83D25-424-42A6@webmail-m204.sysops.aol.com> Thanks Jon. It looks to me that this could be a good alternative for the home builder. Any idea of the bollard pull your unit will produce? Even at Norwegian prices, I think you could probably build something like I'm thinking about for a thousand dollars--or 6000 kroner, whichever comes first. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Eide Pettersen To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Vance, The motor and controller was 244$ including shipping, duct and shroud was around 200$ including shipping and import fee. Magnets, bearings and sensors were around 100$ in total I think. Batteries will be around 125$, and I spent 80$ on delrin. The tube which is the main body was kindly donated from a business that liked my project, and the aluminium stock I was lucky have left over from a previous project. Keep in mind that Norway is quite expensive so some of the parts are propably cheaper elsewhere. Anyway, I think a total of 750$ sounds right. The motor is probably intented for some kind of industrial use, as it is very heavy and thick-walled. Here is a thread from endless-sphere with some pics and testing of the 800w edition:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=45443&sid=c3f78cf1221ba9251d90820d229764e1 - Jon Den 23.01.2014 20:10, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: Jon, Might as well ask. What's your total investment going to be? This looks like a pretty good experimental option for subs, at the very least. I'm with you on the motors. It will be interesting to see just how tough they are. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Eide Pettersen To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Thanks for the kind words! The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the narrowest. Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the commercial DPVs made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the propeller kit is 67$. I bought it directly from dive-x here: http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and that the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are plastic and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or entanglement. The scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop in case this happens. Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used by dive-x: http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They also have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would be suitable for use in a submersible? http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg - Jon Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built by a competent home machinist. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project Hi Jon, Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling motors. Best, Alec On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: Hi! I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) Regards, Jon Eide Pettersen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Thu Jan 23 17:11:18 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:11:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jon, interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. Steve On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: > Hi! > > I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a > magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for > electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. > > I'm posting my progress at my personal website, > http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. > > Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in > the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge > needed :) > > > Regards, > Jon Eide Pettersen > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 17:13:33 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:13:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390515213.62908.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, If you google robotic arm calculator, you come up with a few options for calculators that you input your criteria to. You will be able to play around ?& work out the best option quickly. This is the first one I came across. http://www.robotshop.com/blog/en/robot-arm-torque-calculator-9712 Alan ________________________________ From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? ?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 18:57:21 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:57:21 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> Message-ID: <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 19:05:28 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:05:28 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulator In-Reply-To: <1390515213.62908.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390515213.62908.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D10693DCF914E3B92725E77A0509B9C@LandNSeaPC> Thanks Alan I?ll give it a try. The only thing that might throw a wrench into it would be if the calk's were based on the arm being attached to a solid and fixed object? Rick From: Alan James Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulator Hi Rick, If you google robotic arm calculator, you come up with a few options for calculators that you input your criteria to. You will be able to play around & work out the best option quickly. This is the first one I came across. http://www.robotshop.com/blog/en/robot-arm-torque-calculator-9712 Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 19:12:50 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:12:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > >Rick > > >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > > >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 19:36:29 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:36:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 19:43:02 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.?? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > >Rick > > >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > > >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 19:54:12 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:54:12 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 19:58:55 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:58:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1390525135.69564.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, Trust me, pneumatics are what Gamma has and it is the way to go. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:54:41 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > >Rick > > >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > > >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 20:03:12 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:03:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390525135.69564.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> <1390525135.69564.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390525392.44382.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, When you say pneumatics loose there punch, are you thinking that they use air pressure?? You use pneumatic cylinders with hydraulic oil as if they were hydraulic cylinders.? Maybe we have our wires crossed here. Hank On , hank pronk wrote: Rick, Trust me, pneumatics are what Gamma has and it is the way to go. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:54:41 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > >Rick > > >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > > >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Jan 23 20:15:12 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:15:12 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <1390525392.44382.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> <1390525135.69564.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390525392.44382.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8163C5E2684D415C9BA4BEB90FC0750A@LandNSeaPC> Yes air, when I hear pneumatic, I think air as I have used both in the commercial diving industry and hydraulics were the best way to go for use at any depth. How does the word pneumatic get attached to a hydraulic ram? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:03 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, When you say pneumatics loose there punch, are you thinking that they use air pressure? You use pneumatic cylinders with hydraulic oil as if they were hydraulic cylinders. Maybe we have our wires crossed here. Hank On , hank pronk wrote: Rick, Trust me, pneumatics are what Gamma has and it is the way to go. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:54:41 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Jan 23 20:17:07 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 20:17:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Message-ID: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 20:29:54 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:29:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork In-Reply-To: <8163C5E2684D415C9BA4BEB90FC0750A@LandNSeaPC> References: <1390416636.18760.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E03218.9040009@ohiohills.com> <1390426611.29584.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E5D5B77E67EB-2464-CAD8@webmail-m235.sysops.aol.com> <1390433675.79644.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390434236.68070.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <157A456B-911C-4698-A425-E450FF1692BE@AOL.com> <7DB01E1556414E65A5A8DCB6E2266AC8@LandNSeaPC> <1390522370.75970.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9C3AD54B8CF54A36BCCEBABDCE985BAC@LandNSeaPC> <1390524182.3536.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <6809A57DB93F4A31AD6C9A8BD82CC37B@LandNSeaPC> <1390525135.69564.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390525392.44382.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8163C5E2684D415C9BA4BEB90FC0750A@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <1390526994.56588.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, The pneumatic cylinders are air cylinders that work off air pressure.? They are mostly aluminum so won't rust and are light weight.? Also they have a smaller dia rod and that helps to reduce hyd pressure to actuate at depth. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:15:41 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Yes air, when I hear pneumatic, I think air as I have used both in the commercial diving industry and hydraulics were the best way to go for use at any depth. How does the word pneumatic get attached to a hydraulic ram? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:03 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, When you say pneumatics loose there punch, are you thinking that they use air pressure?? You use pneumatic cylinders with hydraulic oil as if they were hydraulic cylinders.? Maybe we have our wires crossed here. Hank On , hank pronk wrote: Rick, Trust me, pneumatics are what Gamma has and it is the way to go. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:54:41 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. > >Rick > > >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > > >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:00:56 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 21:00:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0E6BF412F9079-103C-583C@webmail-vd010.sysops.aol.com> Jim, I've seen that presentation before. The arms were developed for use with all electric ROVs. I've never used them, but they look nice, which often translates to expensive. I'm thinking if there was any benefit in them for a battery powered vehicle, Phil Nuytten would have been on them like paint on a park bench. And he isn't. Must be a reason. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:17 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 21:27:25 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:27:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. ?Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. ? Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, ? Moving the thread title back to Manipulators:? My?intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic.? Do you have any thoughts on that?? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE ? Thanks, Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, ? Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. ? Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. >? >Rick >? >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork >? >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > >? >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >? >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:31:02 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 21:31:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E6C3758F96AA-103C-5A97@webmail-vd010.sysops.aol.com> Alan and all, I had a couple of beers and lunch with Frank not long before he got really sick. I say really sick because he was already pretty damned sick at the conference. He was his usual self when I saw him last, only a bit more pissed at the circumstances. Frank was a good egg. He is missed. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:43:25 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 21:43:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Message-ID: <8D0E6C530487AFB-1670-5AFA@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Vance, Good point. One possible reason on that particular model at least is that it's rated for less depth that the DW. Light weight is a big consideration for me, and my operating depth is just 300 feet. I'll definitely want to look at what Dr. Phil has done before I get down the road on manipulators. Jim -----Original Message----- From: vbra676539 To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I've seen that presentation before. The arms were developed for use with all electric ROVs. I've never used them, but they look nice, which often translates to expensive. I'm thinking if there was any benefit in them for a battery powered vehicle, Phil Nuytten would have been on them like paint on a park bench. And he isn't. Must be a reason. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:17 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 21:44:00 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E6C3758F96AA-103C-5A97@webmail-vd010.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E6C3758F96AA-103C-5A97@webmail-vd010.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390531440.90985.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I enjoyed my discussions with Frank; he thought outside the box & was always looking for a cheap alternative. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan and all, I had a couple of beers and lunch with Frank not long before he got really sick. I say really sick because he was already pretty damned sick at the conference. He was his usual self when I saw him last, only a bit more pissed at the circumstances. Frank was a good egg. He is missed. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. ?Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. ? Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, ? Moving the thread title back to Manipulators:? My?intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic.? Do you have any thoughts on that?? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE ? Thanks, Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, ? Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. ? Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. >? >Rick >? >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork >? >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > >? >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >? >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:51:23 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 21:51:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E6C64D36A8CE-1670-5B85@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Alan, All good points as well. I know I'm not going to try to develop and modify the components myself on whatever system I end up with. Rather I expect to take what has already been proven and incorporate it. Ideally that will mean getting a complete system off the shelf unless it is just too expensive. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 22:15:54 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 19:15:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E6C64D36A8CE-1670-5B85@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E6C64D36A8CE-1670-5B85@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390533354.33943.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, another problem is the speed, stroke & power. They are all inter-related & it can be hard finding basic data like how long does it take to finish it's 4" stroke. From memory,?the performance in these respects was a bit disappointing. There was a bit of interest by people in the lenco trim tab actuator. I think Lenco are in Florida. They may be what Cliff is using. I saw a cut away display model and it?had plastic gearing in it, which probably wouldn't be compatible with compensating oils aside from silicone. For 300ft, what about pneumatic. We all carry an air supply, and the cylinders would be lighter than the actuators. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, All good points as well.? I know I'm not going to try to develop and modify the components myself on whatever system I end up with.? Rather I expect to take what has already been proven?and incorporate it.? Ideally that will mean getting a complete system off the shelf? unless it is just too expensive. Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. ?Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. ? Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, ? Moving the thread title back to Manipulators:? My?intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic.? Do you have any thoughts on that?? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE ? Thanks, Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal.? Hank? On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, ? Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? ? Rick ? From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap.? Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor.? It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. ? Rick ? From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork ? Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. >I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. >I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. >? >Rick >? >From: hank pronk >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork >? >Alan, >Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open.? The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy.? I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: > >Hank, >can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against >it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? >?? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof? to add a bit of realism. >Alan > > > > >? >From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > >? >Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork > > >The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper.? The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it.? So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time.? I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water"? I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) >Hank > > > >On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > >On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly >> you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, >> to indicate diving and surfacing! >You're right: you gotta have the right sounds.? I have a friend who used >to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making >airplane-engine noises. > > >M > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >http://www.avast.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Thu Jan 23 22:43:48 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:43:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390533354.33943.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0E6B92195B2B1-1670-546B@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390530445.42027.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E6C64D36A8CE-1670-5B85@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> <1390533354.33943.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E6CD9FC94F10-1670-5F04@webmail-m205.sysops.aol.com> Hi Alan, All those are certainly concerns for me. Come to think of it I believe it was possibly Phil who mentioned a particular arm that he was impressed with its smooth operation. He also wrote a piece about three years ago on jettisoning the arm. I could very well end up with pneumatic; it's a ways down the road yet for me so I don't have to make a decision soon. More education to garner first. The arm in the link I posted earlier has an operating depth limit of 300 meters. Here's another one: http://robotnik.es/en/products/robotic-arms/underwater-electric-arm One place the website says the operating depth is 6000 meters, however on that same page it specifies 3000 meters. That's pretty much beyond the need of anything I've seen on Psubs, and we would have to find lots of Rick's doubloons to afford it. Cheers Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, another problem is the speed, stroke & power. They are all inter-related & it can be hard finding basic data like how long does it take to finish it's 4" stroke. From memory, the performance in these respects was a bit disappointing. There was a bit of interest by people in the lenco trim tab actuator. I think Lenco are in Florida. They may be what Cliff is using. I saw a cut away display model and it had plastic gearing in it, which probably wouldn't be compatible with compensating oils aside from silicone. For 300ft, what about pneumatic. We all carry an air supply, and the cylinders would be lighter than the actuators. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, All good points as well. I know I'm not going to try to develop and modify the components myself on whatever system I end up with. Rather I expect to take what has already been proven and incorporate it. Ideally that will mean getting a complete system off the shelf unless it is just too expensive. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Jim, I had a lot of discussion with a previous member, Frank Dalgleish, about using linear actuators underwater. Frank has since passed on. I ended up with about 8 actuators & pulled a few to bits to try & compensate them. One of the problems I encountered was that the small motors didn't like the compensating oil & had what Phil describes as a "herky jerky" movement caused by the brushes being flung off the commutator by the centrifugal force of the oil. On bigger motors it wouldn't be such a problem & the spring tension can be changed to compensate, but the small motors are generally a sealed unit. I had to drill the motor casing to inject oil in to them. Aside from that; with the piston moving in & out, it is displacing the compensating oil, & you need a flexible external bag for both this & to maintain the internal pressure at ambient. Obviously someone has got it right by the link you posted. (posted a link to that a few years back) You could perfect it, but I think it would be more trouble than its worth as you end up with something like a hydraulic cylinder anyway except with a hydraulic system you have one motor for all the cylinders, whereas with linear actuators you have one motor per cylinder. Cliff replaced his hydraulic cylinders with actuators but they caused him grief at conference. He may want to comment. Hope that saved you 200 hrs of research. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Hank, Moving the thread title back to Manipulators: My intention has been to buy or build an all-electric manipulator instead of hydraulic or pneumatic. Do you have any thoughts on that? Here's one I found online last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Qz-CxkBE Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hank, I was under the impression that pneumatics loose their punch with depth and that is why people usually go with hydraulics? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The cylinders are pneumatic but you can use hydraulic if they use an o-ring for the shaft seal. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36:58 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Hank, Do you have any data on the rams that you have and they are hydraulic and not pneumatic correct? Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:12 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Rick, The nice thing about a manipulator for a sub is, you want it to be slow and slow is cheap. Go with big cylinders and a small pump with a restrictor. It will be so easy to operate it you won't believe it. Hank On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:57:21 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Most of what I plan to use the arm for is for gathering all the gold doubloons that fell out of Captain Cooks pockets while he was here in Kealakekua bay wind surfing, but I would settle for an old bottle or two off his ship if I had to. I was more wondering if I came across an abandoned small anchor or something else that weighed around 50 Lb.'s or so if it would up end the boat much? I would rather not use the forward MBT to keep the trim because of having to dump air at the proper rate while ascending. Tagging it with a line and letting the guys in the support boat lift it also sounds good but I would have to master the manip technique. Rick From: Vance Bradley Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Manips are for manipulating, not lifting. Most light arms can do 50-60#. for lifting you could hook on a (releasable) cables and lift with the MBTs. Better yet, take a line down to attach and let your surface crew haul away, or do what we fit at HBOI and in the North Sea. Take a lift bag down rolled into a PVC tube with a blow and go hose from your air banks. Hook up, back away to deploy the bag, inflate and run away (to get out from under the load) Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 23, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I am planning on fabricating my own manipulator for my K-350 that will be hydraulic and was wondering if anybody that had experience using one on a boat that size would be able to let me know about how much an arm would be able to pick fully extended and if a VBT up forward was mandatory to keep the trim. I am planning on making the manipulator out of two sections, each about 2? long giving me a 4? reach fully extended which will get me out just past my forward MBT. I realize that the lifting capacity is based on a number of things like the rated capacity of the rams and where they are attached to the arms so if you know that as well that would be great. It?s freezing here on the big Island! I woke up to a chilling 54 degrees and had to put on a sweat shirt just to walk up to my shop. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:43 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Alan, Yes I could spring load it, It does take some effort to pull the fingers open. The oil has to travel through a pretty small line and all I have here is a pail of 5/30 and that is a bit heavy. I don't heat my shop at night so it gets chilly by morning. Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:34:35 PM, Alan James wrote: Hank, can you mount a wedge somewhere so you can push the manipulator grippers up against it to wedge them open? Or have a compression spring temporarily mounted across the grippers? You could hang some plastic fish from the garage roof to add a bit of realism. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork Hey, she's a banker. It's all black or white with them. Except for the ones with mad manibubators in the shop out back, one supposes. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I am not a dork The only problem is, Gamma's manipulator has a power only to close gripper. The gripper opens with outside water pressure pushing against it. So I have to jump out of the sub to open the gripper each time. I was trying to explain this to my wife and she replied "can't you just put it in a pail of water" I am still laughing inside of coarse :-) Hank On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:03:46 PM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/22/2014 2:57 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > That is indeed a very necessary practice, but for it to work properly > you also have to make loud "AOUUUUUGAH" klaxon sounds every so often, > to indicate diving and surfacing! You're right: you gotta have the right sounds. I have a friend who used to sit in the incomplete fuselage of his biplane in his garage, making airplane-engine noises. M --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at pettersen-prod.com Fri Jan 24 02:33:53 2014 From: jon at pettersen-prod.com (Jon Eide Pettersen) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:33:53 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project In-Reply-To: <8D0E69E66C83D25-424-42A6@webmail-m204.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E665397B7B76-1A00-1206@webmail-vm040.sysops.aol.com> <8D0E685F475C5A4-1848-3057@webmail-d203.sysops.aol.com> <8D0E69E66C83D25-424-42A6@webmail-m204.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The Tahoe benchmark from 2009 tested a couple of scooters with similar prop and shroud as the one I'm using. Bollard pull was around 35-46 lbs with power consumption in the range of 450W-520W. The motor I'm using peaks at around 700W so I think I will get a slightly higher thrust. The report can be read here: http://www.tahoebenchmark.com/pdfs/2009/2009TahoeBenchmarkV2.pdf - Jon > Den 23. jan. 2014 kl. 23:07 skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: > > Thanks Jon. It looks to me that this could be a good alternative for the home builder. Any idea of the bollard pull your unit will produce? Even at Norwegian prices, I think you could probably build something like I'm thinking about for a thousand dollars--or 6000 kroner, whichever comes first. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Eide Pettersen > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 4:24 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project > > Vance, > The motor and controller was 244$ including shipping, duct and shroud was around 200$ including shipping and import fee. Magnets, bearings and sensors were around 100$ in total I think. Batteries will be around 125$, and I spent 80$ on delrin. The tube which is the main body was kindly donated from a business that liked my project, and the aluminium stock I was lucky have left over from a previous project. Keep in mind that Norway is quite expensive so some of the parts are propably cheaper elsewhere. Anyway, I think a total of 750$ sounds right. > > The motor is probably intented for some kind of industrial use, as it is very heavy and thick-walled. Here is a thread from endless-sphere with some pics and testing of the 800w edition: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=45443&sid=c3f78cf1221ba9251d90820d229764e1 > > - Jon > > > Den 23.01.2014 20:10, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: >> Jon, >> Might as well ask. What's your total investment going to be? This looks like a pretty good experimental option for subs, at the very least. I'm with you on the motors. It will be interesting to see just how tough they are. >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jon Eide Pettersen >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 1:24 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project >> >> Thanks for the kind words! >> >> The nozzle/shroud has an inside diameter of around 303mm at the narrowest. Both the nozzle and the prop are replacement parts for the commercial DPVs made by dive-xtras. The shroud cost 70.50$, while the propeller kit is 67$. I bought it directly from dive-x here: http://www.dive-xtras.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=7. >> >> A nice feature with the propeller is that it has variable pitch, and that the blades can be replaced individually. However, the blades are plastic and I'm not sure how well they would survive an impact or entanglement. The scooters from dive-x have a clutch to save the prop in case this happens. Here is a drawing of the propeller assembly used by dive-x: http://www.dive-xtras.com/pages/support/diagrams/linedrawings/propellerassembly.pdf >> >> I bought the motor from www.goldenmotor.com. I'm not impressed by the build quality, but it was very cheap and hopefully it will work. They also have 650w and 800w editions of the same motor, perhaps this would be suitable for use in a submersible? http://www.goldenmotor.com/BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg >> >> >> - Jon >> >> >> Den 23.01.2014 16:16, skrev vbra676539 at aol.com: >>> And barring that, how about a 36 volt 3/4 hp PM motor, housing and drive? It would be sweet to cook something DIY up that could be built by a competent home machinist. >>> Vance >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alec Smyth >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 9:10 am >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diver propulsion vehicle project >>> >>> Hi Jon, >>> >>> Welcome! That is a nicely documented project, and very timely since we recently had threads about kort nozzles and magnetic couplers. Quick question... could you tell me what diameter that nozzle (aka shroud) is and how much it and the prop cost? I'm curious about adapting those to trolling motors. >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jon Eide Pettersen wrote: >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> I'm currently designing and building a diver propulsion vehicle with a magnetically coupled drive. I will use a 48v 500w BLDC motor intended for electric trikes, powered by 4 SLA batteries coupled in series. >>>> >>>> I'm posting my progress at my personal website, http://pettersen-prod.com/project/dpv/index.html. >>>> >>>> Anyway, hope you find this interesting! I hope to build a submersible in the future, but this will suffice until I have the funding and knowledge needed :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Jon Eide Pettersen >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 03:20:53 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 00:20:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Message-ID: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Fri Jan 24 11:42:37 2014 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:42:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > Vance, > a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of > balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with > trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a > vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. > Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be > accentuated in our case. > Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing > about with the trim while operating the manipulator. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 13:09:42 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:09:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1390586982.4215.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan ________________________________ From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, >a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >accentuated in our case. >Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >Alan > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 14:01:35 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390586982.4215.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility.

It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 15:11:29 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:11:29 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: > > > I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > > It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > From: Alan James ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > Thanks Vance, > that's shed some light on the subject. > Alan > > From: Vance Bradley > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > Alan, > I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: >> >> Vance, >> a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >> balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >> trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >> vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >> Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >> accentuated in our case. >> Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >> about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >> Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 24 16:50:42 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:50:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Fri Jan 24 17:12:24 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:12:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> Message-ID: <006e01cf1951$5c5abe90$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> To all. A few years back I was working on a manipulator design but shelved it for lack of a suitable small multi function hydraulic valve. I was looking for a small manually operated valve. I was going to use air cylinders for their compact design and reasonable pressure, plastic hoses rated to around 800 PSI and a multi section manual operated control valve. I didn't want to design a build a valve too. Has any one found something I missed? Maybe a gallon or less / minute flow at maybe 300 to 600 PSI is what I was thinking about. Hank, The arm you have is a beautiful design. What are you using for control valves? Thanks, Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 17:31:55 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <006e01cf1951$5c5abe90$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> <006e01cf1951$5c5abe90$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1390602715.35136.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan, My valve is a 6 bank double acting 24v solenoid valve.? The valve started it's life as a standard valve, then the solenoids were encased in a bolt on box then oil filled and pressure compensated with a bladder(hose)? I also made a hose cutter so I can jettison the arm.?? I once built an arm that ran off convertible top hyd?pumps.? You can use one pump per function and it is a pump/valve all in one.? They cost about 150 bucks on ebay and come with the cylinders.? That is the way to go in my opinion.? you buy four pumps and your done, the pumps just run in reverse for opposite oil flow,,,very simple.? Oh ya I tested one and it gave me 1,200psi Hank On Friday, January 24, 2014 3:15:56 PM, Dan H. wrote: To all. A few years back I was working on a?manipulator design but shelved it for lack?of a suitable small multi function hydraulic valve.? I was looking for a small manually operated valve.? I was going to use air cylinders for their compact design and reasonable pressure, plastic hoses rated to around 800 PSI and a multi section manual operated control valve.? I didn't want to design a build a valve too.? Has any one found something I missed?? Maybe a gallon or less / minute flow at maybe 300 to 600 PSI is what I was thinking about. ? Hank, The arm you have is a beautiful design.? What are you using for control valves? ? Thanks, Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 11:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 17:39:11 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:39:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] radio repair Message-ID: <1390603151.42167.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Can anyone point me in the direction of a person that can overhaul my radio's.? I have schematics and manuals for them. Thank you Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 19:11:00 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390602715.35136.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> <006e01cf1951$5c5abe90$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1390602715.35136.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390608660.62397.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan If you like I can take a picture of the valve so you can see how they modified it. Hank On Friday, January 24, 2014 3:31:55 PM, hank pronk wrote: Dan, My valve is a 6 bank double acting 24v solenoid valve.? The valve started it's life as a standard valve, then the solenoids were encased in a bolt on box then oil filled and pressure compensated with a bladder(hose)? I also made a hose cutter so I can jettison the arm.?? I once built an arm that ran off convertible top hyd?pumps.? You can use one pump per function and it is a pump/valve all in one.? They cost about 150 bucks on ebay and come with the cylinders.? That is the way to go in my opinion.? you buy four pumps and your done, the pumps just run in reverse for opposite oil flow,,,very simple.? Oh ya I tested one and it gave me 1,200psi Hank On Friday, January 24, 2014 3:15:56 PM, Dan H. wrote: To all. A few years back I was working on a?manipulator design but shelved it for lack?of a suitable small multi function hydraulic valve.? I was looking for a small manually operated valve.? I was going to use air cylinders for their compact design and reasonable pressure, plastic hoses rated to around 800 PSI and a multi section manual operated control valve.? I didn't want to design a build a valve too.? Has any one found something I missed?? Maybe a gallon or less / minute flow at maybe 300 to 600 PSI is what I was thinking about. ? Hank, The arm you have is a beautiful design.? What are you using for control valves? ? Thanks, Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 11:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 19:20:54 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:20:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there? just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Fri Jan 24 20:10:01 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 20:10:01 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390608660.62397.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390551653.44509.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3C872DAF-EB0A-4C55-89A4-EC5AE4DA52D3@AOL.com> <006e01cf1951$5c5abe90$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1390602715.35136.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390608660.62397.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2DBE5188-8988-4605-BD6F-FC276B6EFCCC@comcast.net> That would be great. Thanks Dan H. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2014, at 7:11 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Dan > If you like I can take a picture of the valve so you can see how they modified it. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 24, 2014 3:31:55 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Dan, > My valve is a 6 bank double acting 24v solenoid valve. The valve started it's life as a standard valve, then the solenoids were encased in a bolt on box then oil filled and pressure compensated with a bladder(hose) I also made a hose cutter so I can jettison the arm. I once built an arm that ran off convertible top hyd pumps. You can use one pump per function and it is a pump/valve all in one. They cost about 150 bucks on ebay and come with the cylinders. That is the way to go in my opinion. you buy four pumps and your done, the pumps just run in reverse for opposite oil flow,,,very simple. Oh ya I tested one and it gave me 1,200psi > Hank > > > On Friday, January 24, 2014 3:15:56 PM, Dan H. wrote: > To all. > A few years back I was working on a manipulator design but shelved it for lack of a suitable small multi function hydraulic valve. I was looking for a small manually operated valve. I was going to use air cylinders for their compact design and reasonable pressure, plastic hoses rated to around 800 PSI and a multi section manual operated control valve. I didn't want to design a build a valve too. Has any one found something I missed? Maybe a gallon or less / minute flow at maybe 300 to 600 PSI is what I was thinking about. > > Hank, The arm you have is a beautiful design. What are you using for control valves? > > Thanks, Dan H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vance Bradley > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 11:42 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > Alan, > I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > >> Vance, >> a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >> balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >> trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >> vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >> Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >> accentuated in our case. >> Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >> about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amsjohn at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 25 00:51:35 2014 From: amsjohn at sbcglobal.net (John Hodorek) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:51:35 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How's it going Psubs? Message-ID: <201401250551.s0P5p33r004238@whoweb.com> http://dcl.wangxtra.com/support/facebook.php?krdkfnsqdb1301sxmauc amsjohn at sbcglobal.net \-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\- Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:51:35 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Jan 25 08:40:06 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 08:40:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma Nose Message-ID: <8D0E7EA173BC6CE-2098-E057@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Good morning, Hank, I've been looking over the new Gamma pics. That thing looks like a work of art; love it! Could you describe the nose cone for us? Is it a separate chamber or is it completely open to the MBT? What's in it? Thanks, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 08:45:19 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 05:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma Nose In-Reply-To: <8D0E7EA173BC6CE-2098-E057@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0E7EA173BC6CE-2098-E057@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390657519.29761.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Thank you, the nose cone is open to the mbt giving it more volume.? The nose cone has two 150w lights in it as well.? The nose is bolted on from the front with an o-ring seal.? Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:40:26 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Good morning, Hank, ? I've been looking over the new Gamma pics.? That thing looks like a work of art; love it!? Could you describe the nose cone for us?? Is it a separate chamber or is it completely open to the MBT?? What's in it? ? Thanks, Jim ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 12:12:44 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:12:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Message-ID: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Jan 25 12:24:15 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:24:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that true? I hate buying tampons, !! Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 12:29:41 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:29:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 12:32:56 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:32:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] valve photo Message-ID: <1390671176.80635.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dan I posted a picture of the hyd valve for Gamma's manipulator.? You will notice the salt water corrosion on the aluminum, that is as clean as I could get it.? The nylon lines come off the opposite side. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Jan 25 12:41:31 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:41:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E80BD102DD38-25D4-E97A@webmail-m219.sysops.aol.com> Hmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Vance, I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator. I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original. I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks. I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that true? I hate buying tampons, !! Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 12:44:01 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:44:01 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :) Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Vance, > I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator. I have made no > changes to the hp system, it is all original. I have a compressor on > board to re-fill the hp tanks. I like how convenient it is to fill the hp > tanks without taking them out of the sub. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a > two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a > BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel > the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. > What air do you need to pump? > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters > > Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe > the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need > to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder > and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that > true? I hate buying tampons, !! > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen.fordyce at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 14:14:21 2014 From: stephen.fordyce at gmail.com (Stephen Fordyce) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:14:21 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife > by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to > teach :) > > Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some > Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are > about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see > Gamma. > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Vance, >> I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator. I have made no >> changes to the hp system, it is all original. I have a compressor on >> board to re-fill the hp tanks. I like how convenient it is to fill the hp >> tanks without taking them out of the sub. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < >> vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: >> You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a >> two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a >> BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel >> the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. >> What air do you need to pump? >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hank pronk >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >> >> Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe >> the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need >> to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder >> and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that >> true? I hate buying tampons, !! >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Jan 25 14:28:08 2014 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:28:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I?ve used tampons in LP air filter systems for keeping the moisture down in my breathing air but don?t think they will help with odder. Our SAT systems had a separate canister of activated charcoal that sat inline with the scrubber canisters for smells from the toilet (and farts) which worked pretty well but I do remember once calling out to the system control house to activate the inside bids for us it was so bad the charcoal couldn?t keep up with it! Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 7:12 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that true? I hate buying tampons, !! Hank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 15:37:43 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:37:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Steve, I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Hi guys, I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? > > >Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? > > > > >On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >Vance, >>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >> >>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>Vance >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: hank pronk >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >> >> >>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>Hank >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen.fordyce at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 16:29:14 2014 From: stephen.fordyce at gmail.com (Stephen Fordyce) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 08:29:14 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: > Steve, > I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp > tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke. Odour > makes no difference because it is for such a short time. having said that, > since I know nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle > and use that for all emergencies. Thanks' for the input, that was very > helpful. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce < > stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi guys, > I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air > compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 > links as explaining the final filtration process really well. > http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html > http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 > But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you > have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The > activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly > :). > Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours > to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff > about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. > Cheers, > Steve > On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > > Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife > by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to > teach :) > > Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some > Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are > about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see > Gamma. > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Vance, > I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator. I have made no > changes to the hp system, it is all original. I have a compressor on > board to re-fill the hp tanks. I like how convenient it is to fill the hp > tanks without taking them out of the sub. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a > two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a > BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel > the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. > What air do you need to pump? > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters > > Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe > the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need > to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder > and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that > true? I hate buying tampons, !! > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 16:40:59 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Steve, The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Hi guys, >I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >Cheers, >Steve > >On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > >Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >> >> >>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>> >>> >>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 19:53:42 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:53:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390697622.8096.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> That looks good Hank, is this the same animal? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UWn7sVcT8A Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Steve, The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Hi guys, >I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >Cheers, >Steve > >On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > >Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >> >> >>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>> >>> >>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 20:05:29 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:05:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390697622.8096.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390697622.8096.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390698329.70450.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I can't look at it without an account.? Tell me what to look for and I will find it. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:54:05 PM, Alan James wrote: That looks good Hank, is this the same animal? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UWn7sVcT8A Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Steve, The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Hi guys, >I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >Cheers, >Steve > >On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > >Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >> >> >>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>> >>> >>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 20:46:17 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:46:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390698329.70450.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390697622.8096.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390698329.70450.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390700777.69215.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, this is the image from the video. & a description of it. I thought anyone could look at youtube videos. Alan "Your ultimate Dream Compressor " For Scuba & Paint Ball . This is the one that outlasted all it's class !! All Stainless Steel and Aluminum ( US Airforce Technology ) Manufactored by Cornelius ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Alan, I can't look at it without an account.? Tell me what to look for and I will find it. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:54:05 PM, Alan James wrote: That looks good Hank, is this the same animal? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UWn7sVcT8A Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Steve, The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Hi guys, >I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >Cheers, >Steve > >On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > >Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >> >> >>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>> >>> >>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 20:58:31 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:58:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compressor In-Reply-To: <1390700777.69215.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390697622.8096.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390698329.70450.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390700777.69215.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390701511.83095.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry Hank, the image didn't transfer for some reason. I give up. Here is the URL again for the video. Trying it again as for some reason when I cut & paste links they aren't showing up as a hyperlink & the recipient has to copy & paste. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UWn7sVcT8A Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Hank, this is the image from the video. & a description of it. I thought anyone could look at youtube videos. Alan "Your ultimate Dream Compressor " For Scuba & Paint Ball . This is the one that outlasted all it's class !! All Stainless Steel and Aluminum ( US Airforce Technology ) Manufactored by Cornelius ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Alan, I can't look at it without an account.? Tell me what to look for and I will find it. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:54:05 PM, Alan James wrote: That looks good Hank, is this the same animal? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UWn7sVcT8A Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters Steve, The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. Cheers, Steve On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Hi guys, >I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >Cheers, >Steve > >On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > >Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >> >> >>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>Vance, >>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>> >>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>Vance >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>> >>> >>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>Hank >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen.fordyce at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 22:10:17 2014 From: stephen.fordyce at gmail.com (Stephen Fordyce) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 14:10:17 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh that is too cool! Great pickup. On 26/01/2014 8:42 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: > Steve, > The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got > them working. The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi. and it came > out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light. It is about the > size of a kids lunch box. There is no place here for 150 miles to get > scuba tanks filled. It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is > why I want my own air supply. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce < > stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote: > Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you > get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of > rare. > Cheers, > Steve > On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: > > Steve, > I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp > tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke. Odour > makes no difference because it is for such a short time. having said that, > since I know nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle > and use that for all emergencies. Thanks' for the input, that was very > helpful. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce < > stephen.fordyce at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi guys, > I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air > compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 > links as explaining the final filtration process really well. > http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html > http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 > But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you > have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The > activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly > :). > Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours > to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff > about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. > Cheers, > Steve > On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: > > Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife > by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to > teach :) > > Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some > Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are > about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see > Gamma. > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Vance, > I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator. I have made no > changes to the hp system, it is all original. I have a compressor on > board to re-fill the hp tanks. I like how convenient it is to fill the hp > tanks without taking them out of the sub. > Hank > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" < > vbra676539 at aol.com> wrote: > You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a > two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a > BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel > the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. > What air do you need to pump? > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters > > Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now. Since I may need to breathe > the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-) I need > to filter the air. I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder > and filling it with tampons. I read that tampons work for this. Is that > true? I hate buying tampons, !! > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 25 23:01:30 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:01:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters In-Reply-To: References: <1390669964.31352.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E80967D855B7-109C-EA90@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> <1390670981.56070.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390682263.11359.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390686059.29506.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390708890.17759.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Mine is a little different.? The motor is part of the compressor, direct drive.? The whole thing is half the size of the one in the video.? Same compressor pump though, three stage.? Hank On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:10:41 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: Oh that is too cool! Great pickup. On 26/01/2014 8:42 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: Steve, >The compressor is a 24v Cornelius and I bought two of them on ebay and got them working.? The compressor is 1.9cuft per min at 3,000psi.?and it came out of a US military aircraft so it is tiny and light.? It is about the size of a kids lunch box.? There is no place here for 150 miles to get scuba tanks filled.? It would be very troublesome to get air here, that is why I want my own air supply. >Hank > > > >On Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:29:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > >Fair enough Hank, no worries. What compressor is it and where did you get it? Something small enough to go in a sub but still do HP is kind of rare. >Cheers, >Steve >On 26/01/2014 7:38 AM, "hank pronk" wrote: > >Steve, >>I have a bailout bottle with clean air, so I really only wanted the hp tank air to breathable for surfacing while the sub is full of smoke.? Odour makes no difference because it is for such a short time.? having said that, since I know? nothing about filtration, I will get a larger bail out bottle and use that for all emergencies.??Thanks' ?for the input, that was very helpful. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:14:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: >> >>Hi guys, >>I've spent a good amount of time messing around with HP breathing air compressors (I have my own for SCUBA diving) and can volunteer these 2 links as explaining the final filtration process really well. >>http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html >>http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16 >>But in a nutshell, if you're going to be breathing it, especially if you have to bail out at depth, I wouldn't be trusting my life to tampons... The activated carbon and molecular sieve are pretty cheap, and much more manly :). >>Using an old hydraulic cylinder also has high potential for adding odours to your air that no filtration will get rid of - there is some good stuff about that in some the Airspeedpress books on diy oxygen systems. >>Cheers, >>Steve >> >>On 26/01/2014 4:44 AM, "Douglas Suhr" wrote: >> >>Never heard that one before! Hank, just tell 'em you're helping your wife by gathering supplies for that "girls puberty class" she volunteers to teach :)? >>> >>> >>>Joking aside, if tampons really work I might ask you to grab me some Depends because I'll be peeing myself! But this is what us psubbers are about: Innovation and improvisation. Good work Hank. Can't wait to see Gamma.? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> >>>Vance, >>>>I am taking air off the manifold for the scuba regulator.?I have made no changes to the hp system, it is all original.? ?I have a compressor on board to re-fill the hp tanks.? I like how convenient it is to fill the hp tanks without taking them out of the sub. >>>>Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:24:35 AM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: >>>> >>>>You lost me here. A compressor? Why not tap into the HP system with a two charging blocks and clamp on scuba 1st/2nd stage regulators? You need a BIBS of some sort, and the simpler the better, as smoke tends to unravel the nerves a bit with a couple of hundred feet of water over your head. What air do you need to pump? >>>>Vance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: hank pronk >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 12:13 pm >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] tampon filters >>>> >>>> >>>>Gamma has an onboard hp compressor now.? Since I may need to breathe the air from the main hp tanks in case of smoke or passing gas :-)? I need to filter the air.? I am making a filter housing from a hydraulic cylinder and filling it with tampons.? I read that tampons work for this.? Is that true?? I hate buying tampons, !! >>>>Hank >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 14:54:17 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:54:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but? couldn't initiate a purchase.? http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there? just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 15:17:38 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:17:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390767458.47560.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry having trouble with the links. Try copy & pasting this. http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231?currency=USD Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but? couldn't initiate a purchase.? http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there? just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a? >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.? >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than?the working?subs you were in so the problem would be? >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Sun Jan 26 15:23:49 2014 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 15:23:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] valve photo References: <1390671176.80635.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501cf1ad4$86057fd0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Thanks for posting the pics Hank. That's a pretty big valve unit. I have an old backhoe and a bucket truck. The backhoe has manual operated valves and the bucket truck is electric from the bucket to the valves down on the truck. It's far easier to move the backhoe right where I want it with the ability to feather the valve. I hadn't considered electrically operated valves because I thought the movements would be to jerky. How do you find operating the electric over hydraulic? Thanks, Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:32 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] valve photo Dan I posted a picture of the hyd valve for Gamma's manipulator. You will notice the salt water corrosion on the aluminum, that is as clean as I could get it. The nylon lines come off the opposite side. Hank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Sun Jan 19 15:52:39 2014 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 12:52:39 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 26 15:43:48 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:43:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] valve photo In-Reply-To: <007501cf1ad4$86057fd0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1390671176.80635.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <007501cf1ad4$86057fd0$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1390769028.62912.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Dan I had the same concerns, but the arm is smooth as silk, the swing is a bit jerky but it has a way to short stroke on the cylinder.? The small hyd lines and low flow pump are the key.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:23:49 PM, Dan H. wrote: Thanks for posting the pics Hank. ? That's a pretty big valve unit.? ? I have an old backhoe and a bucket truck.? The backhoe has manual operated valves and the bucket truck is electric from the bucket to the valves down on the truck.? It's far easier to move the backhoe right where I want it with the ability to feather the valve.? I hadn't considered electrically operated valves because I thought?the movements would be to jerky.? How do you find operating the electric over hydraulic? ? Thanks, Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 12:32 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] valve photo > > >Dan >I posted a picture of the hyd valve for Gamma's manipulator.? You will notice the salt water corrosion on the aluminum, that is as clean as I could get it.? The nylon lines come off the opposite side. >Hank > >________________________________ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 26 16:47:33 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 13:47:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> Message-ID: <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features.? The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels.? If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes.? Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining.? The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy.? A lower budget? sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow?it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is?already ?designed for the upgrades.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sun Jan 26 17:41:22 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:41:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Urchin Message-ID: <8D0E8FEDF361FC3-2098-14B9E@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Hi Phil, Could you also find some pics of the Sea Urchin to post? I don't recall what it looks like, and I haven't been able to locate any pics. Thanks, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 17:48:31 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 14:48:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> Message-ID: <1390776511.54778.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank)?& antiquated parts, it might be timely to? ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them. ?But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 26 18:52:13 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:52:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> Makes you wonder what that kit would cost these days. Those of us who went to the Vancouver conference saw the SU up on a shelf. Luckily, I got to see it some years earlier when the Jules habitat people had it down in the Keys. It's a great looking little sub up close, as one would expect from the kids at 216 East Esplanade. I'm thinking she might be a little tight for someone of my currently svelte build, so that would be something to ponder ahead of time. But very cool, simple to operate, simple to maintain. No flat ports though, Hank. It's built with two domes, front and top. And a bit of squirm room for the pilot to get from sitting upright to lying down, but not much more than that. It's a minimalist's dream, and was very light, too, as I recall. I'd take one, given the opportunity. It would be a blast to run in Florida. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features. The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels. If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes. Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining. The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy. A lower budget sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is already designed for the upgrades. Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 26 19:15:11 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 16:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390781711.91840.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I got nothing against domes, :-) ?just the cost of them and really they don't shine until you go very deep.? You can't beat the cool factor of the dome,? unfortunately the average garage submarine builder will not peer through one. Also the garage sub guy will not have a ship or barge to launch a sub with domes.? ? I think you could build a Gamma type sub for 300 feet for a pretty reasonable price.? The geniuses in?the?Nekton subs is the simple construction and yet it is so robust.??The design can be simplified further yet to reduce the cost.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:52:13 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Makes you wonder what that kit would cost these days. Those of us who went to the Vancouver conference saw the SU up on a shelf. Luckily, I got to see it some years earlier when the Jules habitat people had it down in the Keys. It's a great looking little sub up close, as one would expect from the kids at 216 East Esplanade. I'm thinking she might be a little tight for someone of my currently svelte build, so that would be something to ponder ahead of time. But very cool, simple to operate, simple to maintain. No flat ports though, Hank. It's built with two domes, front and top. And a bit of squirm room for the pilot to get from sitting upright to lying down, but not much more than that. It's a minimalist's dream, and was very light, too, as I recall. I'd take one, given the opportunity. It would be a blast to run in Florida. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features.? The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels.? If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes.? Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining.? The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy.? A lower budget? sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow?it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is?already ?designed for the upgrades.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 26 19:19:21 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 19:19:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390781711.91840.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> <1390781711.91840.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E90C8F11774D-11CC-15C31@webmail-vm034.sysops.aol.com> Hank You are preaching to the choir about the Nektons. Bullet proof is good! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, I got nothing against domes, :-) just the cost of them and really they don't shine until you go very deep. You can't beat the cool factor of the dome, unfortunately the average garage submarine builder will not peer through one. Also the garage sub guy will not have a ship or barge to launch a sub with domes. I think you could build a Gamma type sub for 300 feet for a pretty reasonable price. The geniuses in the Nekton subs is the simple construction and yet it is so robust. The design can be simplified further yet to reduce the cost. Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:52:13 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Makes you wonder what that kit would cost these days. Those of us who went to the Vancouver conference saw the SU up on a shelf. Luckily, I got to see it some years earlier when the Jules habitat people had it down in the Keys. It's a great looking little sub up close, as one would expect from the kids at 216 East Esplanade. I'm thinking she might be a little tight for someone of my currently svelte build, so that would be something to ponder ahead of time. But very cool, simple to operate, simple to maintain. No flat ports though, Hank. It's built with two domes, front and top. And a bit of squirm room for the pilot to get from sitting upright to lying down, but not much more than that. It's a minimalist's dream, and was very light, too, as I recall. I'd take one, given the opportunity. It would be a blast to run in Florida. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features. The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels. If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes. Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining. The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy. A lower budget sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is already designed for the upgrades. Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 26 19:29:07 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 16:29:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E90C8F11774D-11CC-15C31@webmail-vm034.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> <1390781711.91840.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E90C8F11774D-11CC-15C31@webmail-vm034.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390782547.34220.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, Sorry, didn't mean to preach, can you tell I like Nekton subs :-) Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:19:43 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank You are preaching to the choir about the Nektons. Bullet proof is good! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, I got nothing against domes, :-) ?just the cost of them and really they don't shine until you go very deep.? You can't beat the cool factor of the dome,? unfortunately the average garage submarine builder will not peer through one. Also the garage sub guy will not have a ship or barge to launch a sub with domes.? ? I think you could build a Gamma type sub for 300 feet for a pretty reasonable price.? The geniuses in?the?Nekton subs is the simple construction and yet it is so robust.??The design can be simplified further yet to reduce the cost.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:52:13 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Makes you wonder what that kit would cost these days. Those of us who went to the Vancouver conference saw the SU up on a shelf. Luckily, I got to see it some years earlier when the Jules habitat people had it down in the Keys. It's a great looking little sub up close, as one would expect from the kids at 216 East Esplanade. I'm thinking she might be a little tight for someone of my currently svelte build, so that would be something to ponder ahead of time. But very cool, simple to operate, simple to maintain. No flat ports though, Hank. It's built with two domes, front and top. And a bit of squirm room for the pilot to get from sitting upright to lying down, but not much more than that. It's a minimalist's dream, and was very light, too, as I recall. I'd take one, given the opportunity. It would be a blast to run in Florida. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features.? The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels.? If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes.? Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining.? The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy.? A lower budget? sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow?it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is?already ?designed for the upgrades.? Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Jan 26 19:45:10 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 19:45:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390782547.34220.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390772853.72917.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E908C53C33E3-2444-14DED@webmail-d182.sysops.aol.com> <1390781711.91840.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E90C8F11774D-11CC-15C31@webmail-vm034.sysops.aol.com> <1390782547.34220.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E9102A58A02E-11CC-15DCD@webmail-vm034.sysops.aol.com> Never a doubt!!! -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, Sorry, didn't mean to preach, can you tell I like Nekton subs :-) Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:19:43 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Hank You are preaching to the choir about the Nektons. Bullet proof is good! Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Vance, I got nothing against domes, :-) just the cost of them and really they don't shine until you go very deep. You can't beat the cool factor of the dome, unfortunately the average garage submarine builder will not peer through one. Also the garage sub guy will not have a ship or barge to launch a sub with domes. I think you could build a Gamma type sub for 300 feet for a pretty reasonable price. The geniuses in the Nekton subs is the simple construction and yet it is so robust. The design can be simplified further yet to reduce the cost. Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:52:13 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Makes you wonder what that kit would cost these days. Those of us who went to the Vancouver conference saw the SU up on a shelf. Luckily, I got to see it some years earlier when the Jules habitat people had it down in the Keys. It's a great looking little sub up close, as one would expect from the kids at 216 East Esplanade. I'm thinking she might be a little tight for someone of my currently svelte build, so that would be something to ponder ahead of time. But very cool, simple to operate, simple to maintain. No flat ports though, Hank. It's built with two domes, front and top. And a bit of squirm room for the pilot to get from sitting upright to lying down, but not much more than that. It's a minimalist's dream, and was very light, too, as I recall. I'd take one, given the opportunity. It would be a blast to run in Florida. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I would think a sea urchin kit is a great idea, providing it has variable features. The sub would need to appeal to both budget levels. If it were designed so it could have low cost flat viewports or domes. Perhaps different levels of completion for the people who can do their own machining. The kit could accommodate different kinds of thruster packages again helping the low budget guy. A lower budget sub could get you into the water and as your finances allow it, the upgrades could be made because the sub is already designed for the upgrades. Hank On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:34:12 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Sun Jan 19 21:05:09 2014 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 18:05:09 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390776511.54778.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390776511.54778.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? >From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them. But I might get shot for saying that. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 22:01:37 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 19:01:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: References: <1390590095.57372.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E765765E3AEC-AFC-A936@webmail-vm009.sysops.aol.com> <1390609254.89426.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390766057.15480.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A8526F1A208419AA8AAF33E07A92857@PhillPC> <1390776511.54778.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390791697.768.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Phil, I follow; you design it so everything is dead-headed in it's stowed position. Alan ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 23:18:57 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:18:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Electrical Equipment Part 2 Message-ID: <1390796337.5262.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ? ?The emergency power supply has to be adequate to simultaneously supply any electrical system needed for surfacing plus emergency lighting, emergency? communications equipment, life support equipment, essential monitoring & alarm equipment such as fire alarm system, breathing air monitoring, H2 monitoring, locating equipment & signal lamps. ? ?For charging there needs to be an indicator on the main switchboard to show whether? the shore connection line is live. ? ?The batteries have to be sufficient for the mission when charged to 80% ( that's how I interpret it) ? ?All equipment running off batteries has to be able to operate at a voltage of 25% (30% if operating while charging) above normal voltage or 25% below. It looks like they require the battery voltage to be above the lower limits in the above paragraph, at the end of your day. I got a bit lost here, they refer you to GL rules for ships electrical installations (1-1-3), section 1, F. & section 3, C. ? ?Batteries aren't allowed to leak at angles of up to 45 degrees. ? ?Where the battery capacity is 1000 Ah or more the battery is to be divided in to smaller units so that in the event of a fault there is still some operational ability. ? ?The use of rigid interconnection links between batteries is to be avoided. ? ?The rating data of the battery is to be indicated on "rating plates". ? ?The weight of the biggest battery can't exceed 100kg. ? ?Electrical distribution systems are to be designed so that a fault in one circuit can't impair the operation of another circuit or the power supply. ? ?Circuits at protective low voltage aren't allowed to be routed with higher voltage circuits in a joint conductor bundle or cable duct. ? ?All consumer circuits are to be fitted with switches. The switching action has to be on all poles. ? ?Fuses may be used for overload protection up to a rated current of 63 A ??? don't know whether? this includes circuit breakers,?seems a bit low. ? ?A continuously operating insulation monitoring system is to be installed with an alarm on the control stand that is tripped if the insulation value drops below a preset limit. (in general 50ohm for 1V) ? ?Electrical enclosures outside the hull are to be G.L. approved. ? ?There is a chart for the selection & dimensioning of wires in the electrical rules for ships 1-1-3 section 12. ? ?Only halogen free materials are to be used in wire insulations. ? ?Bus bar temperatures aren't allowed to exceed 100 C. ? ?Where bus bars are used for connecting equipment only sealed or insulated systems may be employed. This does not include switchboards & enclosed electrical service spaces. ? ?Pressure hull penetrations are to be gas & watertight, even if they are damaged or shorn off. ( there goes the blue globe cable glands) ? ?The positive & negative conductors from a power source aren't allowed to pass through the same hull penetration. ? ?Electrical conductors within the penetrating device shall be of solid material. ? ?The minimum insulation resistance is 5 MOhm for the type test. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Jan 27 07:58:01 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:58:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Message-ID: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphonePhil Nuytten wrote:There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ? From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan ? From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 27 08:33:37 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 05:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1390829617.49917.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:04:19 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:04:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390829617.49917.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390831459.77033.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

You're that supply officer on M.A.S.H that can get a pizza oven from a machine gun requisition,..aren't you?!

I'll never look at eBay the same.

Thanks for all these tips!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Jan 27 10:04:22 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:04:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repurposing and procurement In-Reply-To: <1390831459.77033.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390831459.77033.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E98831F15816-2098-180B6@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Joe, I used to be in a group (Gadget Works) composed mostly of engineers and similar geeks. Members would bring old or non-working mechanical devices or small appliances to meetings. We would tear them down for the motors, gears, sensors, etc. and scrap the remainder. The parts were categorized in bins and were freely available to members for whatever devices they wanted to build. The tear-down was a great activity for kids to do in order to learn how things are designed and assembled. They also learned how to use tools and test equipment such as multi-meters, and they were free to design and build as well. I asked the service manager at a boat shop to give me a call if they were throwing out old trolling motors. About a week later he called and told me they had one on the trash pile. I picked it up along with a number of other items. There was nothing wrong with the motor itself, just other control components. I had only expected to get something to experiment on instead of risking ruining a new motor. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 8:07 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Hank, You're that supply officer on M.A.S.H that can get a pizza oven from a machine gun requisition,..aren't you?! I'll never look at eBay the same. Thanks for all these tips! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:33:37 PM Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car. The seat has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts. Also you can use the linier actuators and slides. that is how I made my first arm a life time ago. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? >From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them. But I might get shot for saying that. Alan From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Mon Jan 27 10:17:19 2014 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:17:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390829617.49917.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390829617.49917.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52E6787F.8060903@ohiohills.com> On 1/27/2014 8:33 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Scott, > You can also pick up an old power seat from a car. The seat has three > or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive > shafts. Also you can use the linier actuators and slides. that is > how I made my first arm a life time ago. > American Science & Surplus (sciplus.com) has those motors -- and lots of similar toys -- available. I've bought lots of good stuff like that. Mike --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 27 10:55:31 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:55:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <52E6787F.8060903@ohiohills.com> References: <1390829617.49917.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52E6787F.8060903@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <1390838131.23517.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I think the saying goes, Invention is the mother of necessity.? You would be amazed at what you can do when your dispirit.? Once I needed a 12v dc power source on my log salvage rov.? I had 120v ac going down already.? Remember I was BROKE so I bought a new battery charger at Canadian Tire with a boost feature.? I took it home and had no time to get fancy because I had to produce logs the next day.? I took the battery charger apart and stuffed all the components in a plastic Tupperware container (wife pissed at me) then drilled holes to let wires in and out.? I drove out to the rov (5hrs) strapped the assembly to the side of the rov hooked up the wires and had 12v.? The power supply was not sealed in any way.? I figured it would work and it did for at least a year.? I never took the machine out of the water and that is what saved it.? When I finished logging I tried to put the charger back together but it went up in smoke. lol. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 8:17:47 AM, Michael Holt wrote: On 1/27/2014 8:33 AM, hank pronk wrote: Scott, >You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. > American Science & Surplus (sciplus.com) has those motors -- and lots of similar toys -- available.? I've bought lots of good stuff like that.? Mike ________________________________ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Jan 27 11:14:39 2014 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:14:39 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Message-ID: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ? From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan ? From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 14:08:54 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:08:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> References: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important, as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive and a reasonable amount of power.? Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? >From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Jan 27 14:37:53 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:37:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E9AE671A32F6-2098-1A652@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Alan, I'm a big fan of worm gears as well. It yields very high mechanical advantage which gives you a lot of power from a small motor and great controlability for more precise movements and positioning. As I recall you used an automotive remote mirror system for a camera mount. Pretty slick idea! Any comments on what you ran into when doing that? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important, as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive and a reasonable amount of power. Alan From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car. The seat has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts. Also you can use the linier actuators and slides. that is how I made my first arm a life time ago. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? >From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them. But I might get shot for saying that. Alan From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 15:17:52 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <8D0E9AE671A32F6-2098-1A652@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> References: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E9AE671A32F6-2098-1A652@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390853872.44443.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, I've been slack & haven't had the sub in the water since I built that. Too busy on the new boat. It is air compensated directly from the hull which is at ambient pressure. With the window winder unit, it could be air compensated by plumbing in a hose connector where the wires come out & running the wires though tubing. You then have a Y connection & run air in to this line at a pressure above ambient. That is what I did with my 4 motors on my ambient sub. Hugh came up with the good idea of using a certain type of pressure regulator set at 4psi that vents overpressure & adjusts for ambient, to equalize motors. This would be ideal. If you could mount the unit with the drive shaft pointing down it would help additionally in keeping water out. Another thought is the big 24v motors they have on some large linear actuators.? On a lot of actuators they bolt on to the side of the unit & contain the gearing. I have a couple I picked up cheaply second hand. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I'm a big fan of worm gears as well.? It yields very high mechanical advantage which gives you a lot of power from?a small motor and great controlability for more precise movements and positioning.? As I recall you used an automotive remote mirror system for a camera mount.? Pretty slick idea!? Any comments on what you ran into?when doing that? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important, as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive and a reasonable amount of power.? Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? >From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 27 15:26:33 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 12:26:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390853872.44443.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E9AE671A32F6-2098-1A652@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> <1390853872.44443.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390854393.7922.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Electric window motors are excellent because they are water proof to a point. At least in the old cars they were. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 1:18:16 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, I've been slack & haven't had the sub in the water since I built that. Too busy on the new boat. It is air compensated directly from the hull which is at ambient pressure. With the window winder unit, it could be air compensated by plumbing in a hose connector where the wires come out & running the wires though tubing. You then have a Y connection & run air in to this line at a pressure above ambient. That is what I did with my 4 motors on my ambient sub. Hugh came up with the good idea of using a certain type of pressure regulator set at 4psi that vents overpressure & adjusts for ambient, to equalize motors. This would be ideal. If you could mount the unit with the drive shaft pointing down it would help additionally in keeping water out. Another thought is the big 24v motors they have on some large linear actuators.? On a lot of actuators they bolt on to the side of the unit & contain the gearing. I have a couple I picked up cheaply second hand. Alan ? ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I'm a big fan of worm gears as well.? It yields very high mechanical advantage which gives you a lot of power from?a small motor and great controlability for more precise movements and positioning.? As I recall you used an automotive remote mirror system for a camera mount.? Pretty slick idea!? Any comments on what you ran into?when doing that? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important, as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive and a reasonable amount of power.? Alan ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ________________________________ From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan > > >________________________________ > From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > > > >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 15:54:06 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 12:54:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators In-Reply-To: <1390854393.7922.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <6t2t1birkhk4c5cvfxetgeoo.1390839239128@email.android.com> <1390849734.48437.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D0E9AE671A32F6-2098-1A652@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> <1390853872.44443.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1390854393.7922.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390856046.43463.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, another plus with the window motors is that you can buy the control unit for the 4 windows & you are set up with the forward & reverse on 4 degrees of motion. You could gear the system for more lifting power, however that's a trade off for speed. I found the one I bought was quite strong & they have been known to be capable of killing people by strangulation. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, Electric window motors are excellent because they are water proof to a point. At least in the old cars they were. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 1:18:16 PM, Alan James wrote: Jim, I've been slack & haven't had the sub in the water since I built that. Too busy on the new boat. It is air compensated directly from the hull which is at ambient pressure. With the window winder unit, it could be air compensated by plumbing in a hose connector where the wires come out & running the wires though tubing. You then have a Y connection & run air in to this line at a pressure above ambient. That is what I did with my 4 motors on my ambient sub. Hugh came up with the good idea of using a certain type of pressure regulator set at 4psi that vents overpressure & adjusts for ambient, to equalize motors. This would be ideal. If you could mount the unit with the drive shaft pointing down it would help additionally in keeping water out. Another thought is the big 24v motors they have on some large linear actuators.? On a lot of actuators they bolt on to the side of the unit & contain the gearing. I have a couple I picked up cheaply second hand. Alan ? From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I'm a big fan of worm gears as well.? It yields very high mechanical advantage which gives you a lot of power from?a small motor and great controlability for more precise movements and positioning.? As I recall you used an automotive remote mirror system for a camera mount.? Pretty slick idea!? Any comments on what you ran into?when doing that? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important, as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive and a reasonable amount of power.? Alan From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? >From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 19:20:43 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:20:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repurposing and procurement In-Reply-To: <8D0E98831F15816-2098-180B6@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> References: <1390831459.77033.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E98831F15816-2098-180B6@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1390868443.97905.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Treasures in the junk-pile, I'm loving it! I'm learning from you guys to be a little less "off-the-shelf" minded. Joe On Monday, January 27, 2014 10:07 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, ? I used to be in a group (Gadget Works) composed mostly of engineers and similar geeks.? Members would bring old or non-working mechanical devices or small appliances to meetings.? We would tear them down for the motors, gears, sensors, etc. and scrap the remainder.? The parts were categorized in bins and were freely available to members for whatever devices they wanted to build.? The tear-down was a great activity for kids to do in order to learn how things are designed and assembled.? They also learned how to use tools and test equipment such as multi-meters, and they were free to design and build as well. ? I asked the service manager at a boat shop to give me a call if they were throwing out old trolling motors.? About a week later he called and told me they had one on the trash pile.? I picked it up along with a number of other items.? There was nothing wrong with the motor itself, just other control components.? I had only expected to get something to experiment?on instead of risking ruining a new motor. ? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 8:07 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Hank, You're that supply officer on M.A.S.H that can get a pizza oven from a machine gun requisition,..aren't you?! I'll never look at eBay the same. Thanks for all these tips! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:33:37 PM Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car.? The seat?has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts.? Also you can use the?linier actuators and slides.? that is how I made my first arm? a life time ago. Hank?? ? On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston? (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a? swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion? on the ROV!) Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them.? But I might get shot for saying that. Alan ? From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System? pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth? by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a? Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil ? From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan ? From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators ? I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. > >It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad >? >From: Alan James ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators >Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM > > >Thanks Vance, >that's shed some light on the subject. >Alan >? >From: Vance Bradley >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators > >? >Alan, >I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: > > >Vance, >>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of >>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with >>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a >>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. >>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be >>accentuated in our case. >>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing >>about with the trim while operating the manipulator. >>Alan >> >>? >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Jan 27 20:17:53 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:17:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repurposing and procurement In-Reply-To: <1390868443.97905.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1390831459.77033.YahooMailIosMobile@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0E98831F15816-2098-180B6@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> <1390868443.97905.YahooMailNeo@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0E9DDE7272023-2098-1CCA0@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> Hi Joe, One of the big advantages of working on things from "alternate procurement" is that I can experiment more boldly. If it turns out not to work, so what. If I screw up an item while trying to tap it, etc., so what; I've just learned how NOT to do it and can keep working on a free piece until I learn how to do it right or discover the best approach. When it comes to preparing the real thing I might use another salvage piece or I might opt to go for a brand new one with no wear on moving parts or no corrosion to deal with. Still it's a great feeling when the free/cheap piece works out right the first time! By the way, I just took a look at some of the other stuff I got off the discard pile with the motor. Looks like it might be really good material for a manipulator. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repurposing and procurement Treasures in the junk-pile, I'm loving it! I'm learning from you guys to be a little less "off-the-shelf" minded. Joe On Monday, January 27, 2014 10:07 AM, "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" wrote: Joe, I used to be in a group (Gadget Works) composed mostly of engineers and similar geeks. Members would bring old or non-working mechanical devices or small appliances to meetings. We would tear them down for the motors, gears, sensors, etc. and scrap the remainder. The parts were categorized in bins and were freely available to members for whatever devices they wanted to build. The tear-down was a great activity for kids to do in order to learn how things are designed and assembled. They also learned how to use tools and test equipment such as multi-meters, and they were free to design and build as well. I asked the service manager at a boat shop to give me a call if they were throwing out old trolling motors. About a week later he called and told me they had one on the trash pile. I picked it up along with a number of other items. There was nothing wrong with the motor itself, just other control components. I had only expected to get something to experiment on instead of risking ruining a new motor. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 8:07 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Hank, You're that supply officer on M.A.S.H that can get a pizza oven from a machine gun requisition,..aren't you?! I'll never look at eBay the same. Thanks for all these tips! Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:33:37 PM Scott, You can also pick up an old power seat from a car. The seat has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts. Also you can use the linier actuators and slides. that is how I made my first arm a life time ago. Hank On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters wrote: Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Phil Nuytten wrote: There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description. I tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea Urchin. Would appreciate seeing any pictures of it. One question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive & ascend from causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with this? >From the frustration I've heard from K boat builders through ambiguities in the plans, dangerous elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace them. But I might get shot for saying that. Alan From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ?Sea Urchin? sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions (extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all, CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves ? one for each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well ? the exhaust into the cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve ? same one used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I?ll try to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit ? ala Kitteridge - but don?t know how much interest there would be. Phil From: Alan James Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US. Not sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but couldn't initiate a purchase. http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231 Alan From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance, I'll have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are problems that come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a concertina with water pressure changes. Alan From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry. That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet (according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about $500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the running inch). Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace for a week. For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator a good option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic system. And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items. Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel wrote: I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility. It seems to me that a permanently mounted air source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. Joe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad From: Alan James ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance, that's shed some light on the subject. Alan From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Alan, I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James wrote: Vance, a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be accentuated in our case. Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing about with the trim while operating the manipulator. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 01:31:19 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Automation, Communication, Navigation, & locating equipment Message-ID: <1390890679.30669.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, here's more Bling for your submarine complements of G.L. ? ?Computer aided operating systems are permitted, details to be agreed with G.L. there is a 43 page document Automation I-1-4 that is background reading for this. ? ?Any fault occurring in an automated system can't lead to a critical operating condition. ? ?Any inadmissible variations in ?the operating parameters of the automated system are to actuate visible &?audible alarms. ? ?Automatic monitoring & automated functions have to be able to be switched to manual operation. ? ?The function of essential indicating lamps has to be check-able during operation. Shutdown heating is recommended to prevent condensation inside electrical units (not sure what? this involves) ? ?Forced ventilation of automation equipment is to be avoided if possible. ? ?Any cooling system for electronics needs to be monitored to ensure it is functioning. ? ?Potentiometers for equipment trimming & operating point setting that are accessible, need to be able to be locked in position. ? ?The emergency power supply is to be monitored & failure is to be alarmed. ? ?There is a substantial list of electronics & monitoring equipment needed on the control stand. It can be found section 12 B 2.1 & covers navigational & speed indicators, vehicle atmosphere, electrical equipment, safety equipment/indicators, steering & control systems, sensors & actuators. ? ?An underwater telephone to the communicate with the support ship needs to have a minimum range? of twice the nominal dive depth. ? ?The underwater telephone is to be fed from the emergency power supply & is to be capable of acting? as a standby telephone system when the sub is on the surface. ? A signal system like flashing lights are needed to enable quick detection of the surfaced submarine. Submersibles operating in areas of boat traffic need lights, signal devices & acoustic signals according to the international regulations for prevention of collision at sea. ? Suitable position finding equipment for surface transit is required. ? ?Preferably you should paint your submarine orange yellow or red. (preferably yellow in honour of the? beatles) Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 20:05:22 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:05:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems Message-ID: <1390957522.35422.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ? ?Life support systems need to sustain you for a minimum time of 96 hrs (4 days) beyond your intended mission time. This is for autonomous submersibles which are untethered submersibles with a boat in support. For autonomous submersibles like Carsten's, they require 168 hrs (7 days).? ? ?Depending on the rescue concept you provide, these times for autonomous sunmersibles may be shortened. ? ?Food, water, and the disposal of waste & effluent facilities need to be provided for the above times. ( the waste disposal facility needs to be able to stop the sub from stinking) ? ?The O2 partial pressure needs to be kept within the range 0.19 - 0.23 bar. The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar. Audible alarms are to be automatically set off if there is any? variation outside these parameters. ? ?Air purifying & conditioning units are to be installed. ? ?Guideline notes for life support are - O2 demand: 15 l/hr (resting); 40 l/hr working. - CO2 production 22 l/h (average). For tourist subs, 26.4 l/h ? ?No Smoking signs needed. ? ?An emergency respirator or a breathing mask which can be connected to an emergency breathing air system is to be provided for each crew member, in addition a reserve unit is required. They need to have gas tight eye protection & provide a minimum of one hour of air. The crew members need to be able to reach the exit still wearing these masks. ? ?When travelling on the surface, the submarine is to be vented via an air mast. The battery ventilation system is independent from other ventilation systems. Natural venting may be OK for small battery plants. ? ?O2 bottles in the pressure hull are limited to containing a volume that if it escaped, wouldn't increase the pressure by 1 atm or increase the O2 content of the air by more than 25% by volume. ? ?Manually operated oxygen metering systems are to be equipped with a bottle shut off valve & a device for controlling the flow rate with a flow rate indicator. ? ?If the metering device is not provided in redundant form?it is to be equipped with a manually? operated bypass. I think this means that if the meter blocks you can switch to your extra meter, but if that isn't going to exist you need some way to bypass the meter. ? ?The CO2 absorption unit has to be capable of keeping the partial pressure in the range of 0.005 - 0.010 bar. At the end of your 96 hr survival time it shouldn't be more than 0.02 bar. ? ?The CO2 unit needs a dust filter of non combustible material. ? ?If development of H2 can be expected, the hydrogen content needs to be monitored continuously in the battery spaces. ? ?If the hydrogen content reaches 35% of the lower explosion limit it is to be signaled audibly & visually at the control stand. ? ?The life support monitoring equipment includes pressure, temperature, humidity, oxygen partial pressure, CO2 partial pressure, H2 portion, bottle pressures, outlet pressure of pressure reducing valves. A permanent gauge & standby indicator are required for O2 & CO2. Test tubes may be recognized as standby indicators. An analysis system has to be provided for determining atmospheric impurities. I think the K250 system has got a lot going for it. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 21:51:39 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:51:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems In-Reply-To: <1390957522.35422.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1390957522.35422.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A61736C-70B1-43C2-A4E7-F74C22EF295C@yahoo.com> Alan, What type of waste disposal system is meant here? A means of disposing accumulated human waste against sea pressure? What did they do on the Pisces incident? 96 hours, wow! In the back of my mind, I've figured a 12 - 24 hour response time to hopefully get a winch on you in this area. I sure hope so anyway! Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Alan James wrote: > Life support systems need to sustain you for a minimum time of 96 hrs (4 days) > beyond your intended mission time. This is for autonomous submersibles which > are untethered submersibles with a boat in support. For autonomous submersibles > like Carsten's, they require 168 hrs (7 days). > Depending on the rescue concept you provide, these times for autonomous sunmersibles > may be shortened. > Food, water, and the disposal of waste & effluent facilities need to be provided for the > above times. ( the waste disposal facility needs to be able to stop the sub from stinking) > The O2 partial pressure needs to be kept within the range 0.19 - 0.23 bar. The CO2 pressure > needs to be kept below 0.01 bar. Audible alarms are to be automatically set off if there is any > variation outside these parameters. > Air purifying & conditioning units are to be installed. > Guideline notes for life support are - O2 demand: 15 l/hr (resting); 40 l/hr working. > - CO2 production 22 l/h (average). For tourist subs, 26.4 l/h > No Smoking signs needed. > An emergency respirator or a breathing mask which can be connected to an emergency > breathing air system is to be provided for each crew member, in addition a reserve unit > is required. They need to have gas tight eye protection & provide a minimum of one hour of air. > The crew members need to be able to reach the exit still wearing these masks. > When travelling on the surface, the submarine is to be vented via an air mast. > The battery ventilation system is independent from other ventilation systems. > Natural venting may be OK for small battery plants. > O2 bottles in the pressure hull are limited to containing a volume that if it escaped, wouldn't > increase the pressure by 1 atm or increase the O2 content of the air by more than 25% > by volume. > Manually operated oxygen metering systems are to be equipped with a bottle shut off valve > & a device for controlling the flow rate with a flow rate indicator. > If the metering device is not provided in redundant form it is to be equipped with a manually > operated bypass. I think this means that if the meter blocks you can switch to your extra > meter, but if that isn't going to exist you need some way to bypass the meter. > The CO2 absorption unit has to be capable of keeping the partial pressure in the range of > 0.005 - 0.010 bar. At the end of your 96 hr survival time it shouldn't be more than 0.02 bar. > The CO2 unit needs a dust filter of non combustible material. > If development of H2 can be expected, the hydrogen content needs to be monitored > continuously in the battery spaces. > If the hydrogen content reaches 35% of the lower explosion limit it is to be signaled audibly > & visually at the control stand. > The life support monitoring equipment includes pressure, temperature, humidity, oxygen > partial pressure, CO2 partial pressure, H2 portion, bottle pressures, outlet pressure of pressure > reducing valves. A permanent gauge & standby indicator are required for O2 & CO2. Test tubes > may be recognized as standby indicators. > An analysis system has to be provided for determining atmospheric impurities. > I think the K250 system has got a lot going for it. > Alan > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 22:11:21 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:11:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems In-Reply-To: <3A61736C-70B1-43C2-A4E7-F74C22EF295C@yahoo.com> References: <1390957522.35422.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3A61736C-70B1-43C2-A4E7-F74C22EF295C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390965081.90042.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, ABS only requires 72 hours. As far as waste disposal is concerned, I have heard snap-lock plastic bag mentioned. Of course you would have to send the bag in for type approval, it would have to be made of fire retardant materials & you would have to supply G.L. with it's material specifications, expected life, the manufacturers name & their accreditation details. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems Alan, What type of waste disposal system is meant here? A means of disposing accumulated human waste against sea pressure?? What did they do on the Pisces incident?? 96 hours, wow! In the back of my mind, I've figured a 12 - 24 hour response time to hopefully get a winch on you in this area. I sure hope so anyway! Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Alan James wrote: ? ?Life support systems need to sustain you for a minimum time of 96 hrs (4 days) >beyond your intended mission time. This is for autonomous submersibles which >are untethered submersibles with a boat in support. For autonomous submersibles >like Carsten's, they require 168 hrs (7 days).? >? ?Depending on the rescue concept you provide, these times for autonomous sunmersibles >may be shortened. >? ?Food, water, and the disposal of waste & effluent facilities need to be provided for the >above times. ( the waste disposal facility needs to be able to stop the sub from stinking) >? ?The O2 partial pressure needs to be kept within the range 0.19 - 0.23 bar. The CO2 pressure >needs to be kept below 0.01 bar. Audible alarms are to be automatically set off if there is any? >variation outside these parameters. >? ?Air purifying & conditioning units are to be installed. >? ?Guideline notes for life support are - O2 demand: 15 l/hr (resting); 40 l/hr working. >- CO2 production 22 l/h (average). For tourist subs, 26.4 l/h >? ?No Smoking signs needed. >? ?An emergency respirator or a breathing mask which can be connected to an emergency >breathing air system is to be provided for each crew member, in addition a reserve unit >is required. They need to have gas tight eye protection & provide a minimum of one hour of air. >The crew members need to be able to reach the exit still wearing these masks. >? ?When travelling on the surface, the submarine is to be vented via an air mast. >The battery ventilation system is independent from other ventilation systems. >Natural venting may be OK for small battery plants. >? ?O2 bottles in the pressure hull are limited to containing a volume that if it escaped, wouldn't >increase the pressure by 1 atm or increase the O2 content of the air by more than 25% >by volume. >? ?Manually operated oxygen metering systems are to be equipped with a bottle shut off valve >& a device for controlling the flow rate with a flow rate indicator. >? ?If the metering device is not provided in redundant form?it is to be equipped with a manually? >operated bypass. I think this means that if the meter blocks you can switch to your extra >meter, but if that isn't going to exist you need some way to bypass the meter. >? ?The CO2 absorption unit has to be capable of keeping the partial pressure in the range of >0.005 - 0.010 bar. At the end of your 96 hr survival time it shouldn't be more than 0.02 bar. >? ?The CO2 unit needs a dust filter of non combustible material. >? ?If development of H2 can be expected, the hydrogen content needs to be monitored >continuously in the battery spaces. >? ?If the hydrogen content reaches 35% of the lower explosion limit it is to be signaled audibly >& visually at the control stand. >? ?The life support monitoring equipment includes pressure, temperature, humidity, oxygen >partial pressure, CO2 partial pressure, H2 portion, bottle pressures, outlet pressure of pressure >reducing valves. A permanent gauge & standby indicator are required for O2 & CO2. Test tubes >may be recognized as standby indicators. >An analysis system has to be provided for determining atmospheric impurities. >I think the K250 system has got a lot going for it. >Alan > > >? ? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Jan 28 22:30:22 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:30:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems In-Reply-To: <3A61736C-70B1-43C2-A4E7-F74C22EF295C@yahoo.com> References: <1390957522.35422.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3A61736C-70B1-43C2-A4E7-F74C22EF295C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0EAB993465E03-1168-25AC8@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> The two Rogers were off the southwestern tip of Ireland in 1500 feet of water with no backup on that side of England. They actually loaded the other P-boat off the ship in Aberdeen onto a flatbed and trucked it 500 miles across Scotland. Another ship went out to stay on station over the downed sub while the Vickers support boat went in to get the next Pisces. All in shitty weather. It was some amazing rescue. Waste disposal could be a trash bag and a ty-wrap, along with pee bottles. The Pisces only had the bilges, unfortunately, and just had to deal with it. Embarrassing, but that wasn't their biggest problem and they managed. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Rules Life Support Systems Alan, What type of waste disposal system is meant here? A means of disposing accumulated human waste against sea pressure? What did they do on the Pisces incident? 96 hours, wow! In the back of my mind, I've figured a 12 - 24 hour response time to hopefully get a winch on you in this area. I sure hope so anyway! Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Alan James wrote: Life support systems need to sustain you for a minimum time of 96 hrs (4 days) beyond your intended mission time. This is for autonomous submersibles which are untethered submersibles with a boat in support. For autonomous submersibles like Carsten's, they require 168 hrs (7 days). Depending on the rescue concept you provide, these times for autonomous sunmersibles may be shortened. Food, water, and the disposal of waste & effluent facilities need to be provided for the above times. ( the waste disposal facility needs to be able to stop the sub from stinking) The O2 partial pressure needs to be kept within the range 0.19 - 0.23 bar. The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar. Audible alarms are to be automatically set off if there is any variation outside these parameters. Air purifying & conditioning units are to be installed. Guideline notes for life support are - O2 demand: 15 l/hr (resting); 40 l/hr working. - CO2 production 22 l/h (average). For tourist subs, 26.4 l/h No Smoking signs needed. An emergency respirator or a breathing mask which can be connected to an emergency breathing air system is to be provided for each crew member, in addition a reserve unit is required. They need to have gas tight eye protection & provide a minimum of one hour of air. The crew members need to be able to reach the exit still wearing these masks. When travelling on the surface, the submarine is to be vented via an air mast. The battery ventilation system is independent from other ventilation systems. Natural venting may be OK for small battery plants. O2 bottles in the pressure hull are limited to containing a volume that if it escaped, wouldn't increase the pressure by 1 atm or increase the O2 content of the air by more than 25% by volume. Manually operated oxygen metering systems are to be equipped with a bottle shut off valve & a device for controlling the flow rate with a flow rate indicator. If the metering device is not provided in redundant form it is to be equipped with a manually operated bypass. I think this means that if the meter blocks you can switch to your extra meter, but if that isn't going to exist you need some way to bypass the meter. The CO2 absorption unit has to be capable of keeping the partial pressure in the range of 0.005 - 0.010 bar. At the end of your 96 hr survival time it shouldn't be more than 0.02 bar. The CO2 unit needs a dust filter of non combustible material. If development of H2 can be expected, the hydrogen content needs to be monitored continuously in the battery spaces. If the hydrogen content reaches 35% of the lower explosion limit it is to be signaled audibly & visually at the control stand. The life support monitoring equipment includes pressure, temperature, humidity, oxygen partial pressure, CO2 partial pressure, H2 portion, bottle pressures, outlet pressure of pressure reducing valves. A permanent gauge & standby indicator are required for O2 & CO2. Test tubes may be recognized as standby indicators. An analysis system has to be provided for determining atmospheric impurities. I think the K250 system has got a lot going for it. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Jan 28 22:56:21 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:56:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Message-ID: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 23:10:00 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:10:00 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? Vance, Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Vance, > Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: > > 1973 Pisces III rescue > Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Jan 28 23:28:11 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:28:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: References: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0EAC1A708C8D0-2B20-255EE@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Same company originally: Vickers, Sons and Maxim, Ltd. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Jim, I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? Vance, Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Jan 29 00:00:05 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:00:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Message-ID: <8D0EAC61BD8EF6F-2B20-2585F@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> I did some checking to see what Wikipedia didn't tell. Apparently Pisces III was on the surface about to be retrieved after a dive when the hatch was pulled off the rear sphere (accidentally?) and it flooded with about a ton of water. The rear sphere housed machinery. It only took 30 seconds for it to crash about 1575 feet to the sea floor, but fortunately neither Roger was significantly injured. They jettisoned the 400 lb. drop weight on the way down. Mallinson had changed out a half-full oxygen bottle for a full one before the dive or they would not have made it. Here's a link for more detail: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23862359 Jim -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Joe, Same company originally: Vickers, Sons and Maxim, Ltd. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Jim, I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? Vance, Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 29 07:53:16 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 07:53:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0EB083606435D-23F4-27BB3@webmail-vn001.sysops.aol.com> The aft sphere has a hatch on top and the outer shell segment was left off for the dive. During recovery operations, the tow line got wrapped around the hatch dogs, and ripped the hatch open. Drop weight and tanks were useless as the buoyancy on that aft sphere grosses at 2-tons (60" sphere). According to Roger Chapman, they had less than 15 MINUTES of life support left when they got out. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:56 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 29 07:54:33 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 07:54:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: References: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0EB0863C8C455-23F4-27BC5@webmail-vn001.sysops.aol.com> Not sure. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Jim, I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? Vance, Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Jan 29 07:59:34 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 07:59:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: <8D0EAC61BD8EF6F-2B20-2585F@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0EAC61BD8EF6F-2B20-2585F@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0EB09172F1FB9-23F4-27C33@webmail-vn001.sysops.aol.com> They always say that about the aft sphere. Full of machinery. Nonsense. It has a trim tank back there, and usually (in the old days) a DC to AC converter. It's primary use was to hold up the batteries and for VBT adjustments. Vance -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 12:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue I did some checking to see what Wikipedia didn't tell. Apparently Pisces III was on the surface about to be retrieved after a dive when the hatch was pulled off the rear sphere (accidentally?) and it flooded with about a ton of water. The rear sphere housed machinery. It only took 30 seconds for it to crash about 1575 feet to the sea floor, but fortunately neither Roger was significantly injured. They jettisoned the 400 lb. drop weight on the way down. Mallinson had changed out a half-full oxygen bottle for a full one before the dive or they would not have made it. Here's a link for more detail: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23862359 Jim -----Original Message----- From: jimtoddpsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Joe, Same company originally: Vickers, Sons and Maxim, Ltd. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue Jim, I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? Vance, Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Vance, Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: 1973 Pisces III rescue Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 15:03:11 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue In-Reply-To: <8D0EAC1A708C8D0-2B20-255EE@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0EABD34706634-2B20-253A8@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> <8D0EAC1A708C8D0-2B20-255EE@webmail-m294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3E9D37F0-115C-453A-86E7-FCEB4E82ECB0@yahoo.com> Thanks Jim! My mind seems attracted to useless trivial knowledge. While standing in the line at Epcot for the ride "Spaceship Earth" I commented to my wife that the corporate sponsor Siemens used forced labor and supplied the concentration camps with electrical supplies. We concluded that was an appropriate tribute to the human experience. Joe On Jan 28, 2014, at 11:28 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Joe, > Same company originally: Vickers, Sons and Maxim, Ltd. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:10 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces III rescue > > Jim, > > I thought it was the aft sphere that flooded? > > Vance, > > Is / was Vickers the same company that manufactured the Vickers machine gun in WWI? > > Joe > > On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:56 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > >> Vance, >> Pretty hairy situation. Apparently they were 76 hours into their 72-hour life support capacity when the rescue was completed. Do you know how the tank was inadvertently flooded, why they couldn't blow the tank, or why they couldn't release a drop weight to ascend? Below is the story per Wikipedia: >> >> 1973 Pisces III rescue >> Pisces III was used to lay transatlantic telephone cable on the sea bottom off Ireland in 1973. When a buoyancy tank was inadvertently flooded, it sank to the bottom of the ocean with its two-man crew, Britons Roger Mallinson and Roger Chapman, stranded at a depth of 1,575 feet (480 m) and 72 hours of available life support, which they were able to extend to 76 hours by careful conservation.[2][3][4] Initial rescue efforts by Pisces III sister submersibles were unsuccessful. Through an international effort of the United States, Canada, and Great Britain, the U.S. Navy Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle (CURV-III) was deployed within 24 hours 6,000 miles from its home base. Deployment of CURV-III from CCGS John Cabot was hampered by heavy sea conditions. Rapid repairs were made when CURV-III?s gyroscope failed and electronics shorted-out after green water came aboard the Cabot. Assisted by the submersibles Pisces II and Pisces V, CURV-III was able to attach lines to the Pisces III hatch. The Cabot raised CURV-III at 60 to 100 feet (18 to 30 m) per minute until their lines entangled. The lines were cut, CURV-III was abandoned, and Pisces III was floated to 60 feet (18 m) where scuba divers were able to attach lines that were used to lift Pisces III the rest of the way to the surface. CURV-III performed the deepest underwater rescue in history when Pisces III?s two-man crew was rescued after 76 hours with just 12 minutes[5] of air remaining. >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 18:46:39 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:46:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub on ebay Message-ID: <1391039199.65156.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi All There is an ambient submarine for sale on ebay, it is the same type that Tim has. I like to watch ebay for photo's of old submarines Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Jan 29 22:10:20 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 22:10:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alvin makeover Message-ID: <8D0EB7FF1C224B2-1EC8-2DA47@webmail-m171.sysops.aol.com> Short article and some good pics on Alvin's recently completed makeover. -Jim http://www.livescience.com/42914-alvin-sub-makeover-photos.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Jan 30 12:57:08 2014 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:57:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub on ebay In-Reply-To: <1391039199.65156.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391039199.65156.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, are you referring to the IVC ResortSub that is currently listed? The only other diving vessel that I found was that old Russian bell that has been listed for ages. I find it kind of funny on the ResortSub listing that someone asked the seller how deep the sub will go and he responded by talking about trimix diving and something like 600 feet. Then he says that with Scuba he would only go to 200 feet. What happened to the universally accepted 130 foot depth limit for breathing regular air to prevent getting narced? By using such quantities of gas for ballast tanks, buoyancy compensation and breathing air, I don't feel the vessel carries a large enough volume of air to make a dive even to 200 feet, let alone 600 feet on trimix. And what about decomp time? No way a SportSub/ResortSub would make it without surface supply lines. 130 feet is a theoretical maximum safe dive depth for short intervals, but you will never see my SportSub in more than 80 feet of water, period. Either this guy is clueless or he really wants to sell his submarine and my guess is the latter. I hate to see someone being taken advantage of, whether it's a buyer or a seller. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Hank, good looking out. - Douglas S. On Wednesday, January 29, 2014, hank pronk wrote: > Hi All > There is an ambient submarine for sale on ebay, it is the same type that > Tim has. > I like to watch ebay for photo's of old submarines > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 13:44:40 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Message-ID: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Thu Jan 30 15:19:10 2014 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 21:19:10 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! Regards, Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so. My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much higher like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 15:38:05 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Message-ID: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm looking ?at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees?last year so I'm wondering whether I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms.?Any experience with this? from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers? represented there? Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure?needs to be kept below 0.01 bar Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 16:07:42 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1391116062.74326.YahooMailMobile@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Emile., Thank you, that makes sence. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 16:10:29 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391116229.61831.YahooMailMobile@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan What do you mean by pressure, my instrument reads ppm, parts per million. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Jan 30 16:13:44 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 16:13:44 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: > Hi, > I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days > time, & in > particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. > The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so > it seems the numbers > at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year > so I'm wondering whether > I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session > rooms. Any experience with this > from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or > submersible manufacturers > represented there? > Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. > Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. > Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar > Alan >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 16:59:28 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391116062.74326.YahooMailMobile@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391116062.74326.YahooMailMobile@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391119168.5054.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon & Hank, thanks Jon, that is very encouraging.? Hank, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. I looked up ABS rules & they say " the concentration of CO2 will never exceed 0.5 percent by volume. I work that out to be 5,000ppm so you are sweet. There is a good article on life support on the Psub site by DR Phil Nuytten. This discusses CO2 levels, Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Emile., Thank you, that makes sence. Hank ________________________________ From: Emile van Essen ; To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:19:10 PM Hank, ? Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! ? Regards, Emile ? ________________________________ Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance ? Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Thu Jan 23 21:58:44 2014 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:58:44 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes? clearin? ma throat) Nuytco has always been at the UI submersible track ? year after year. This year we?ll be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year ? the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytco?s senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using ?Aquarius? to take down a 92 year old ? survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) ? the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule ? specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans ? well, it?s quite a story! Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers represented there? Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Fri Jan 31 02:33:52 2014 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 02:33:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day In-Reply-To: <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> Message-ID: <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> Phil, Your D-day story left me curious to know more; found this: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm Jim Midget Submarines and D Day X-boats ? midget-submarines ? were used at D-Day by the British to ensure that their landings went well. The crews of the X-boats were made up of commandos from the elite Combined Operations Pilotage and Reconnaissance Parties, formed on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten. After the disaster that befell the Allies at Dieppe, everything was done to ensure success on June 6th 1944. Five days before June 5th ? the original date for D-Day ? two X-boats sailed from Hayling Island, Hampshire. Each midget submarine had a crew of five men on board. It would be their task to guide in the British landing craft at Sword Beach. The fear was that the landing craft might drift towards rocks that skirted the specific landing points at Sword and it was the task on the submarine crews to ensure the landing craft stayed on course. The space in each of the X-boats was extremely limited. Each submarine was just 51 feet in length and a maximum of 6 feet in width. The crew could not stand up once inside the X-boats. The crews took it in turns to have a four-hour sleep in the battery compartment of the X-boats and their diet was mainly tea and baked beans. Once the crews had sailed to the beaches they simply had to lay in wait and vitally, ensure that they were not spotted by the Germans. If one had been spotted, it is quite possible that the ?game? would have been up in terms of a surprise landing ? even if Hitler was convinced that the Allies would land in the Pays de Calais. The expertise of the crews was such that they watched unnoticed via periscope German soldiers playing football on Sword Beach just one day before the planned landings. However, both submarines had to surface at 22.00 to listen to the BBC news broadcast at that time. While they were submerged neither crew could hear the news. It was vital that they did as a secret message was going to be broadcast on one of the bulletins that would tell them that the landings were on and that they had to be ready to do what was required of them. During one of these broadcasts, the crews learnt that the landings were going to be delayed by a day. This put them in a quandary as they did not know if they had enough oxygen on board to last them. When it was felt possible to do so, the crews would surface to allow the men to have a quick walk about on deck and to take in some fresh air. The 22.00 BBC news on June 5th informed both crews via a secret message that D-Day was about to start. They now knew that they had to be on duty at 04.00 on June 6th. They first knew the landings had started when a huge fleet of bombers flew above them to bomb German positions along the coastline. The two crews knew that it would not be much longer before the landing crafts arrived and it would their task to ensure they sailed on the right course to Sword Beach. The landing craft homed in on the lights that came from the two X-boats. Casualties at Sword Beach were minimal when the sheer magnitude of the raid is taken into account. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes? clearin? ma throat) Nuytco has always been at the UI submersible track ? year after year. This year we?ll be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year ? the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytco?s senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using ?Aquarius? to take down a 92 year old ? survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) ? the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule ? specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans ? well, it?s quite a story! Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers represented there? Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 04:04:03 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:04:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> Message-ID: <1391159043.4245.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks for the info Phil, look forward to hearing it at the conference. Alan? ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes? clearin? ma throat) Nuytco hasalways been at the UI submersible track ? year after year. This year we?ll be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year ? the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytco?s senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using ?Aquarius? to take down a 92 year old ? survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) ? the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule ? specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans ?? well, it?s quite a story!?? Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension ? I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions.? I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat.? The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here.? The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people?? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken.? ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment.? I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there.? It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm looking? at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether >I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this >from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers >represented there? >Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >Alan > >? > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 04:07:57 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:07:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day In-Reply-To: <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1391159277.18124.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, 5 men, 5 days in a sub on a diet of baked beans, Goshh they were tough in those days. Alan ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 8:33 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day Phil, ? Your D-day story left?me curious to know more; found this:? http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm ? Jim ? Midget Submarines and D Day X-boats ? midget-submarines ? were used at D-Day by the British to ensure that their landings went well. The crews of the X-boats were made up of commandos from the elite Combined Operations Pilotage and Reconnaissance Parties, formed on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten. After the disaster that befell the Allies at Dieppe, everything was done to ensure success on June 6th 1944. ? Five days before June 5th ? the original date for D-Day ? two X-boats sailed from Hayling Island, Hampshire. Each midget submarine had a crew of five men on board. It would be their task to guide in the British landing craft at Sword Beach. The fear was that the landing craft might drift towards rocks that skirted the specific landing points at Sword and it was the task on the submarine crews to ensure the landing craft stayed on course. ? The space in each of the X-boats was extremely limited. Each submarine was just 51 feet in length and a maximum of 6 feet in width. The crew could not stand up once inside the X-boats. The crews took it in turns to have a four-hour sleep in the battery compartment of the X-boats and their diet was mainly tea and baked beans. ? Once the crews had sailed to the beaches they simply had to lay in wait and vitally, ensure that they were not spotted by the Germans. If one had been spotted, it is quite possible that the ?game? would have been up in terms of a surprise landing ? even if Hitler was convinced that the Allies would land in the Pays de Calais. The expertise of the crews was such that they watched unnoticed via periscope German soldiers playing football on Sword Beach just one day before the planned landings. ? However, both submarines had to surface at 22.00 to listen to the BBC news broadcast at that time. While they were submerged neither crew could hear the news. It was vital that they did as a secret message was going to be broadcast on one of the bulletins that would tell them that the landings were on and that they had to be ready to do what was required of them. ? During one of these broadcasts, the crews learnt that the landings were going to be delayed by a day. This put them in a quandary as they did not know if they had enough oxygen on board to last them. When it was felt possible to do so, the crews would surface to allow the men to have a quick walk about on deck and to take in some fresh air.? ? The 22.00 BBC news on June 5th informed both crews via a secret message that D-Day was about to start. They now knew that they had to be on duty at 04.00 on June 6th. They first knew the landings had started when a huge fleet of bombers flew above them to bomb German positions along the coastline. The two crews knew that it would not be much longer before the landing crafts arrived and it would their task to ensure they sailed on the right course to Sword Beach. The landing craft homed in on the lights that came from the two X-boats. Casualties at Sword Beach were minimal when the sheer magnitude of the raid is taken into account. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes? clearin? ma throat) Nuytco hasalways been at the UI submersible track ? year after year. This year we?ll be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year ? the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytco?s senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using ?Aquarius? to take down a 92 year old ? survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) ? the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule ? specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans ?? well, it?s quite a story!?? Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension ? I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions.? I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat.? The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here.? The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people?? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken.? ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment.? I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there.? It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm looking? at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether >I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this >from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers >represented there? >Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >Alan > >? > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From searov at xtra.co.nz Fri Jan 31 04:48:11 2014 From: searov at xtra.co.nz (Keith Gordon) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 22:48:11 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> Message-ID: Hi Alan I have attended a number of UI conferences and the previous ROV conferences since the the 1980's all good stuff , great people and and great contacts. A lot of info from the manufacturers on gear suitable for Psubs and a lot of good advice. Usually no problems attending the presentations but problem is choosing what to attend from the full & interesting program so plan ahead. My bookshelf has proceedings from previous conferences which I often refer to. Make sure you stop off at Phils's stand as always lot of interesting stuff and great people to talk to. Besides the ROV/AUV people it is also a great venue for the commercial dive industry and lots of interesting folks involved. Unfortunately for us Kiwis the show is a a bit expensive especially as not on West Coast unless you can write it off to a business account as most attendees do, but our dollar is catching up with the US$ - but then being in New Orleans adds to the fun! So enjoy and have fun Cheers Keith Gordon On 31/01/2014, at 10:13 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. > > ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. > > You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. > > Jon > > > On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: >> Hi, >> I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >> particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >> The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >> at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether >> I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this >> from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers >> represented there? >> Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >> Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >> Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >> Alan >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Jan 31 05:00:01 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:00:01 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers. Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find this quite ok. I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 - 10000ppm for about half an hour. I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. Kind Regards James On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > Hank, > > > > Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and > starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider > electrical preheating. > > 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! > > > > Regards, Emile > > > ------------------------------ > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *hank pronk > *Verzonden:* donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > > > > Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so. > My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much higher > like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 05:15:40 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:15:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> Message-ID: <0D13390E-0A0E-4506-94DB-F6F327B80FEA@yahoo.com> Thanks Keith, that's a great encouragement. I'm sure the trip will pay dividends on my next build. Have to look you up when I'm in Whangarei. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/01/2014, at 10:48 pm, Keith Gordon wrote: > > Hi Alan > > I have attended a number of UI conferences and the previous ROV conferences since the the 1980's all good stuff , great people and and great contacts. A lot of info from the manufacturers on gear suitable for Psubs and a lot of good advice. Usually no problems attending the presentations but problem is choosing what to attend from the full & interesting program so plan ahead. > > My bookshelf has proceedings from previous conferences which I often refer to. Make sure you stop off at Phils's stand as always lot of interesting stuff and great people to talk to. > > Besides the ROV/AUV people it is also a great venue for the commercial dive industry and lots of interesting folks involved. > > Unfortunately for us Kiwis the show is a a bit expensive especially as not on West Coast unless you can write it off to a business account as most attendees do, but our dollar is catching up with the US$ - but then being in New Orleans adds to the fun! > So enjoy and have fun > > Cheers > Keith Gordon > >> On 31/01/2014, at 10:13 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >> >> I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. >> >> ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. >> >> You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. >> >> Jon >> >> >>> On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: >>> Hi, >>> I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >>> particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >>> The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >>> at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether >>> I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this >>> from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers >>> represented there? >>> Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >>> Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >>> Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 08:33:13 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 05:33:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, Thank you for the clarification.? I was also surprised that the co2 level was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on.? I assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside before I started my test. ? Carsten? mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent.?? Gamma came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old.? I experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. Talk about shelf life. Hank On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland wrote: Hi Hank, Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers.? Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find this quite ok.? I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 -? 10000ppm for about half an hour.? I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. Kind Regards James On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: Hank, >? >Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. >2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! >? >Regards, Emile >? > >________________________________ > >Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk >Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 >Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance >? >Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Fri Jan 31 08:42:13 2014 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 08:42:13 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> Message-ID: <52EBA835.2070708@psubs.org> Not an intentional slight, I assumed he knew you'd be there. I think we talked about this in the Keys back in October but maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Phil draws a heavy crowd so you may want to get there early for a good seat. On 1/23/2014 9:58 PM, Phil Nuytten wrote: > Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes' clearin' ma throat) Nuytco hasalways been at > the UI submersible track -- year after year. This year we'll be > talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy > Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for > History Channel and will air this year -- the 70th anniversary of > Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying > higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff > Heaton, Nuytco's senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using > 'Aquarius' to take down a 92 year old -- survivor of the invasion who > was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the > invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop > carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) -- the > story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days > offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the > schedule -- specially as they had to surface at night to get > communication on the changing plans -- well, it's quite a story! > Phil > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Jan 31 09:39:48 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 14:39:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi Hank, Thats good news on the shelf life of the absorbent. Ive got 6 5L canisters and was worried they were going to go bad. Looks like they will be ok for a while yet! regards James On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: > James, > Thank you for the clarification. I was also surprised that the co2 level > was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on. I > assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker > inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside > before I started my test. > Carsten mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent. Gamma > came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old. I > experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. > Talk about shelf life. > Hank > > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers. Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find > this quite ok. I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant > watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 - 10000ppm for about half an hour. > I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. > Kind Regards > James > On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > > Hank, > > Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and > starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider > electrical preheating. > 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *hank pronk > *Verzonden:* donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > > Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or > so. My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much > higher like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 10:23:24 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 07:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. Hank On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland wrote: hi Hank, Thats good news on the shelf life?of the absorbent.? Ive got 6 5L canisters?and was worried they were going to go bad.? Looks like they will be ok for a while yet! regards James On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: James, >Thank you for the clarification.? I was also surprised that the co2 level was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on.? I assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside before I started my test. >? Carsten? mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent.?? Gamma came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old.? I experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. Talk about shelf life. >Hank > > > > > >On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >Hi Hank, > >Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers.? Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find this quite ok.? I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 -? 10000ppm for about half an hour.? I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. > >Kind Regards >James > >On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > >Hank, >>? >>Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. >>2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! >>? >>Regards, Emile >>? >> >>Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk >>Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 >>Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance >>? >>Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? >>Hank >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Jan 31 10:27:54 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 15:27:54 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yes, it comes in 5L sealed plastic cans, like oil does. I just pour it back in and screw the lid on. Im waiting to see how long 5l lasts. I make a note each time I use it of how long its been on for. So far i've done about 5 hours and there is no change in colour or performance. James On 31 January 2014 15:23, hank pronk wrote: > James, > Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > hi Hank, > Thats good news on the shelf life of the absorbent. Ive got 6 5L > canisters and was worried they were going to go bad. Looks like they will > be ok for a while yet! > regards > James > > On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Thank you for the clarification. I was also surprised that the co2 level > was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on. I > assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker > inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside > before I started my test. > Carsten mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent. Gamma > came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old. I > experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. > Talk about shelf life. > Hank > > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers. Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find > this quite ok. I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant > watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 - 10000ppm for about half an hour. > I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. > Kind Regards > James > On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > > Hank, > > Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and > starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider > electrical preheating. > 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *hank pronk > *Verzonden:* donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > > Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or > so. My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much > higher like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 10:33:03 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 07:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391182383.98734.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, Do you remove the absorbent after each use, then put it back in the scrubber?? Hank On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:27:54 AM, James Frankland wrote: yes, it comes in 5L sealed plastic cans, like oil does.? I just pour it back in and screw the lid on.? Im waiting to see how long 5l lasts.? I make a note each time I use it of how long its been on for.? So far i've done about 5 hours and there is no change in colour or performance. James On 31 January 2014 15:23, hank pronk wrote: James, >Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. >Hank > > > >On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >hi Hank, >Thats good news on the shelf life?of the absorbent.? Ive got 6 5L canisters?and was worried they were going to go bad.? Looks like they will be ok for a while yet! >regards >James > > >On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: > >James, >>Thank you for the clarification.? I was also surprised that the co2 level was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on.? I assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside before I started my test. >>? Carsten? mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent.?? Gamma came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old.? I experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. Talk about shelf life. >>Hank >> >> >> >> >> >>On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland wrote: >> >>Hi Hank, >> >>Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers.? Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find this quite ok.? I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 -? 10000ppm for about half an hour.? I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. >> >>Kind Regards >>James >> >>On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: >> >>Hank, >>>? >>>Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. >>>2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! >>>? >>>Regards, Emile >>>? >>> >>>Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk >>>Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 >>>Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance >>>? >>>Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? >>>Hank >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Jan 31 10:35:43 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 15:35:43 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391182383.98734.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391182383.98734.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yes, i pour it out of the scrubber back into the container it comes in. On 31 January 2014 15:33, hank pronk wrote: > James, > Do you remove the absorbent after each use, then put it back in the > scrubber? > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:27:54 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > yes, it comes in 5L sealed plastic cans, like oil does. I just pour it > back in and screw the lid on. Im waiting to see how long 5l lasts. I make > a note each time I use it of how long its been on for. So far i've done > about 5 hours and there is no change in colour or performance. > James > > On 31 January 2014 15:23, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > hi Hank, > Thats good news on the shelf life of the absorbent. Ive got 6 5L > canisters and was worried they were going to go bad. Looks like they will > be ok for a while yet! > regards > James > > On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Thank you for the clarification. I was also surprised that the co2 level > was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on. I > assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker > inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside > before I started my test. > Carsten mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent. Gamma > came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old. I > experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. > Talk about shelf life. > Hank > > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers. Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find > this quite ok. I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant > watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 - 10000ppm for about half an hour. > I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. > Kind Regards > James > On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > > Hank, > > Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and > starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider > electrical preheating. > 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *hank pronk > *Verzonden:* donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > > Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or > so. My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much > higher like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 10:41:28 2014 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 07:41:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391182383.98734.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391182888.3815.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, When I read the manual for my inspiration rebreather scrubber, it says to not remove the absorbent.? I have no idea why, maybe because they do not use colour indicating.? I just bag the whole scrubber.? I like your way better though, it seems more bullet proof. Hank On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:35:43 AM, James Frankland wrote: yes, i pour it out of the scrubber back into the container it comes in.?? On 31 January 2014 15:33, hank pronk wrote: James, >Do you remove the absorbent after each use, then put it back in the scrubber?? >Hank > > > >On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:27:54 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >yes, it comes in 5L sealed plastic cans, like oil does.? I just pour it back in and screw the lid on.? Im waiting to see how long 5l lasts.? I make a note each time I use it of how long its been on for.? So far i've done about 5 hours and there is no change in colour or performance. >James > > >On 31 January 2014 15:23, hank pronk wrote: > >James, >>Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. >>Hank >> >> >> >>On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland wrote: >> >>hi Hank, >>Thats good news on the shelf life?of the absorbent.? Ive got 6 5L canisters?and was worried they were going to go bad.? Looks like they will be ok for a while yet! >>regards >>James >> >> >>On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: >> >>James, >>>Thank you for the clarification.? I was also surprised that the co2 level was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on.? I assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside before I started my test. >>>? Carsten? mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent.?? Gamma came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old.? I experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. Talk about shelf life. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland wrote: >>> >>>Hi Hank, >>> >>>Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers.? Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find this quite ok.? I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 -? 10000ppm for about half an hour.? I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. >>> >>>Kind Regards >>>James >>> >>>On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: >>> >>>Hank, >>>>? >>>>Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider electrical preheating. >>>>2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! >>>>? >>>>Regards, Emile >>>>? >>>> >>>>Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk >>>>Verzonden: donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 >>>>Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance >>>>? >>>>Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or so.? My scrubber is maintaining the sub at ?2,300 ppm? but started much higher like 3,500 ppm.???Is 2,300 ppm on the high side?? >>>>Hank >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Jan 31 11:36:36 2014 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 16:36:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1391182888.3815.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391107480.24746.YahooMailNeo@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391175193.88562.YahooMailNeo@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391181804.73672.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391182383.98734.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1391182888.3815.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: perhaps the rebreather is more sealed? Or maybe the scrubber only works when air is being forced through it. actually, thats not true because i spilt a load on the garage floor and the next day, the dregs that i hadnt rescued had turned purple. Oh well, its easy enough to pour it back into the tub. (especially as ive got a proper funnel now.....the reason for the spillage :) ) On 31 January 2014 15:41, hank pronk wrote: > James, > When I read the manual for my inspiration rebreather scrubber, it says to > not remove the absorbent. I have no idea why, maybe because they do not > use colour indicating. I just bag the whole scrubber. I like your way > better though, it seems more bullet proof. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:35:43 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > yes, i pour it out of the scrubber back into the container it comes in. > > On 31 January 2014 15:33, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Do you remove the absorbent after each use, then put it back in the > scrubber? > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:27:54 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > yes, it comes in 5L sealed plastic cans, like oil does. I just pour it > back in and screw the lid on. Im waiting to see how long 5l lasts. I make > a note each time I use it of how long its been on for. So far i've done > about 5 hours and there is no change in colour or performance. > James > > On 31 January 2014 15:23, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Do you seal your scrubber some way when your not using it. > Hank > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:39:48 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > hi Hank, > Thats good news on the shelf life of the absorbent. Ive got 6 5L > canisters and was worried they were going to go bad. Looks like they will > be ok for a while yet! > regards > James > > On 31 January 2014 13:33, hank pronk wrote: > > James, > Thank you for the clarification. I was also surprised that the co2 level > was in the neighbourhood of 5,000ppm when I turned the sensor on. I > assumed the air quality would be better with the hatch open while I tinker > inside. I hooked up my shop vac to the flood valve to suck clean air inside > before I started my test. > Carsten mentioned one time that he has used 20yr old absorbent. Gamma > came with full bottles of absorbent that have to be around 20 yrs old. I > experimented with the old material and it worked the same as new stuff. > Talk about shelf life. > Hank > > > > On Friday, January 31, 2014 3:00:36 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > Ive got one of Emiles scrubbers. Holds the sub at 3200 - 3500 and i find > this quite ok. I did try an experiment (on land with an assistant > watching) where i let CO2 get to 7500 - 10000ppm for about half an hour. > I could tolerate this just, but i wouldnt like it to go any more. > Kind Regards > James > On 30 January 2014 20:19, Emile van Essen wrote: > > Hank, > > Is normal, The CO2 level must rise first before the scrubber warms up and > starts to work. In cold weather it will take longer and you may consider > electrical preheating. > 2300 PPM / 0,23 % is a good figure anyway! > > Regards, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *hank pronk > *Verzonden:* donderdag 30 januari 2014 19:45 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > > Is it normal for a scrubber's performance to improve after 15 min or > so. My scrubber is maintaining the sub at 2,300 ppm but started much > higher like 3,500 ppm. Is 2,300 ppm on the high side? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Fri Jan 31 12:34:00 2014 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 31 Jan 2014 17:34 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day In-Reply-To: <1391159277.18124.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> <1391159277.18124.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1W9Hz0-05HVFQ0@fwd00.t-online.de> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tip-Spear-Submarines-Pamela-Mitchell/dp/1872955142 I can recommed this book. Is written by Pamela, the daughter of the yard owner which developand build the subs. We exchange some letters many years ago to try to figure out the missing fates. A lot of inside storys from first hand. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Jim, 5 men, 5 days in a sub on a diet of baked beans, Goshh they were tough in those days. Alan From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 8:33 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day Phil, Your D-day story left me curious to know more; found this: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm Jim Midget Submarines and D Day X-boats  midget-submarines  were used at D-Day by the British to ensure that their landings went well. The crews of the X-boats were made up of commandos from the elite Combined Operations Pilotage and Reconnaissance Parties, formed on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten. After the disaster that befell the Allies at Dieppe, everything was done to ensure success on June 6th 1944. Five days before June 5th  the original date for D-Day  two X-boats sailed from Hayling Island, Hampshire. Each midget submarine had a crew of five men on board. It would be their task to guide in the British landing craft at Sword Beach. The fear was that the landing craft might drift towards rocks that skirted the specific landing points at Sword and it was the task on the submarine crews to ensure the landing craft stayed on course. The space in each of the X-boats was extremely limited. Each submarine was just 51 feet in length and a maximum of 6 feet in width. The crew could not stand up once inside the X-boats. The crews took it in turns to have a four-hour sleep in the battery compartment of the X-boats and their diet was mainly tea and baked beans. Once the crews had sailed to the beaches they simply had to lay in wait and vitally, ensure that they were not spotted by the Germans. If one had been spotted, it is quite possible that the game would have been up in terms of a surprise landing  even if Hitler was convinced that the Allies would land in the Pays de Calais. The expertise of the crews was such that they watched unnoticed via periscope German soldiers playing football on Sword Beach just one day before the planned landings. However, both submarines had to surface at 22.00 to listen to the BBC news broadcast at that time. While they were submerged neither crew could hear the news. It was vital that they did as a secret message was going to be broadcast on one of the bulletins that would tell them that the landings were on and that they had to be ready to do what was required of them. During one of these broadcasts, the crews learnt that the landings were going to be delayed by a day. This put them in a quandary as they did not know if they had enough oxygen on board to last them. When it was felt possible to do so, the crews would surface to allow the men to have a quick walk about on deck and to take in some fresh air. The 22.00 BBC news on June 5th informed both crews via a secret message that D-Day was about to start. They now knew that they had to be on duty at 04.00 on June 6th. They first knew the landings had started when a huge fleet of bombers flew above them to bomb German positions along the coastline. The two crews knew that it would not be much longer before the landing crafts arrived and it would their task to ensure they sailed on the right course to Sword Beach. The landing craft homed in on the lights that came from the two X-boats. Casualties at Sword Beach were minimal when the sheer magnitude of the raid is taken into account. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes clearin ma throat) Nuytco has always been at the UI submersible track  year after year. This year well be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year  the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytcos senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using Aquarius to take down a 92 year old  survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing)  the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule  specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans  well, its quite a story! Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers represented there? Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 15:24:21 2014 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 15:24:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day In-Reply-To: <1W9Hz0-05HVFQ0@fwd00.t-online.de> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> <1391159277.18124.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1W9Hz0-05HVFQ0@fwd00.t-online.de> Message-ID: <3A360CAB-AAB1-46AB-906D-7C8BE3BF4653@yahoo.com> Carsten, Finding X-5 from "Operation Source" would make give you and your operation much notoriety. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Jan 31, 2014, at 12:34 PM, " " wrote: > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tip-Spear-Submarines-Pamela-Mitchell/dp/1872955142 > > I can recommed this book. > Is written by Pamela, the daughter of the yard owner which developand build the subs. > We exchange some letters many years ago to try to figure out the missing fates. > A lot of inside storys from first hand. > > vbr Carsten > > "Alan James" schrieb: > Jim, > 5 men, 5 days in a sub on a diet of baked beans, > Goshh they were tough in those days. > Alan > > From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 8:33 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day > > Phil, > > Your D-day story left me curious to know more; found this: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm > > Jim > > Midget Submarines and D Day > > X-boats  midget-submarines  were used at D-Day by the British to ensure that their landings went well. The crews of the X-boats were made up of commandos from the elite Combined Operations Pilotage and Reconnaissance Parties, formed on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten. After the disaster that befell the Allies at Dieppe, everything was done to ensure success on June 6th 1944. > > Five days before June 5th  the original date for D-Day  two X-boats sailed from Hayling Island, Hampshire. Each midget submarine had a crew of five men on board. It would be their task to guide in the British landing craft at Sword Beach. The fear was that the landing craft might drift towards rocks that skirted the specific landing points at Sword and it was the task on the submarine crews to ensure the landing craft stayed on course. > > The space in each of the X-boats was extremely limited. Each submarine was just 51 feet in length and a maximum of 6 feet in width. The crew could not stand up once inside the X-boats. The crews took it in turns to have a four-hour sleep in the battery compartment of the X-boats and their diet was mainly tea and baked beans. > > Once the crews had sailed to the beaches they simply had to lay in wait and vitally, ensure that they were not spotted by the Germans. If one had been spotted, it is quite possible that the game would have been up in terms of a surprise landing  even if Hitler was convinced that the Allies would land in the Pays de Calais. The expertise of the crews was such that they watched unnoticed via periscope German soldiers playing football on Sword Beach just one day before the planned landings. > > However, both submarines had to surface at 22.00 to listen to the BBC news broadcast at that time. While they were submerged neither crew could hear the news. It was vital that they did as a secret message was going to be broadcast on one of the bulletins that would tell them that the landings were on and that they had to be ready to do what was required of them. > > During one of these broadcasts, the crews learnt that the landings were going to be delayed by a day. This put them in a quandary as they did not know if they had enough oxygen on board to last them. When it was felt possible to do so, the crews would surface to allow the men to have a quick walk about on deck and to take in some fresh air. > > The 22.00 BBC news on June 5th informed both crews via a secret message that D-Day was about to start. They now knew that they had to be on duty at 04.00 on June 6th. They first knew the landings had started when a huge fleet of bombers flew above them to bomb German positions along the coastline. The two crews knew that it would not be much longer before the landing crafts arrived and it would their task to ensure they sailed on the right course to Sword Beach. The landing craft homed in on the lights that came from the two X-boats. Casualties at Sword Beach were minimal when the sheer magnitude of the raid is taken into account. > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Nuytten > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:40 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension > > Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes clearin ma throat) Nuytco has always been at the UI submersible track  year after year. This year well be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoing the WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was for History Channel and will air this year  the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha, Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) all over the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytcos senior ops manager had the unusual pleasure of using Aquarius to take down a 92 year old  survivor of the invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two days before the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troop carriers (the original schedule called for a night landing)  the story of he and his crew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landing site as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule  specially as they had to surface at night to get communication on the changing plans  well, its quite a story! > Phil > From: Jon Wallace > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension > > > I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat. The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken. > > ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. > > You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. > > Jon > > > On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: >> Hi, >> I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >> particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >> The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >> at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether >> I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms. Any experience with this >> from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers >> represented there? >> Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >> Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >> Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >> Alan >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 19:51:56 2014 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 16:51:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension In-Reply-To: References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1391215916.4647.YahooMailNeo@web120906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On the U.I.convention web site is a list of about 150 companys that are exhibiting, along with links to their web sites. Thought this might be a? handy list for anyone trying to track down bits & peices. http://www.onlinefloorplan.com/underwater2014/exhibitlist.asp Alan ________________________________ From: Keith Gordon To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Hi Alan? I have attended a number of UI conferences and the previous ROV conferences since the the 1980's ? all good stuff , great people and and great contacts. A lot of info from the manufacturers on gear suitable for Psubs and a lot of good advice. Usually no problems attending the presentations but problem is choosing what to attend from the full & interesting program so plan ahead. My bookshelf has proceedings from previous conferences which I often refer to. Make sure you stop off at Phils's stand as always lot of interesting stuff and great people to talk to. ?Besides the ROV/AUV people it is also a great venue for the commercial dive industry and lots of interesting folks involved. Unfortunately for us Kiwis the show is a a bit expensive especially as not on West Coast unless you can write it off to a business account as most attendees do, but our dollar is catching up with the US$ - but then being in New Orleans adds to the fun! So enjoy and have fun Cheers Keith Gordon On 31/01/2014, at 10:13 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions.? I have only ever attended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not having a seat.? The convention center and session rooms are not small...we're not talking PSUBS size event here.? The technical session rooms have seats for...I'm guessing...200 people?? And there is plenty of "standing room" if all the seats were taken.? ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall the gentleman's name at the moment.? I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer other than Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehicle sessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there.? It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, >I'm looking ?at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10 days time, & in >particular attending the underwater vehicle technical sessions. >The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions, so it seems the numbers >at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees?last year so I'm wondering whether >I run the risk of missing out through lack of seats in the session rooms.?Any experience with this? >from others who have attended these sessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers? >represented there? >Have tried calling U.I. a couple of times but haven't been lucky. >Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. >Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2 pressure?needs to be kept below 0.01 bar >Alan > > >> > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Fri Jan 31 20:19:58 2014 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 20:19:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 12V DC Sonar Implementation Message-ID: All, thought I would share an exercise I am noodling through. As an off shoot to developing my K-250 electrical layout I am looking at what it would take to add (later) a sonar system based on a 12V DC system. Thought I could get some feedback as well as provide an "example" for others considering a similar scenario. On the Psubs site under Submitter/Steve McQueen/K-250 Sonar Electrical you can find my initial version of a wiring diagram. In this example I used easily found components as a base reference. My current self inflicted design constraints: Implementation of the Teledyne BlueView M-900 2D imaging sonar Utilization of laptop for viewing (vs. separate processor with remote monitor) Dedicated 12V DC sourced (separate from main 12V DC bank) 4 hours of run time I am sure my initial design can be made more efficient. The initial design has 2 parallel 12V/150 Ah batteries which are larger and heavier than I'd like (22x4x11 inches or 560x110x280 mm and 89.3 lbs or 40.5 kg). This design gives 3.9 hrs of run time For me the design goal is to reduce battery footprint (size/weight) Any comments? Anyone have sonar based on 12V DC? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Jan 31 20:49:46 2014 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 20:49:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day In-Reply-To: <3A360CAB-AAB1-46AB-906D-7C8BE3BF4653@yahoo.com> References: <1391114285.6458.YahooMailNeo@web120902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <52EAC088.30805@psubs.org> <5F71D0C516D640268BBD8DB7C4F2FB85@PhillPC> <8D0EC6DEC394AB4-2FB4-67A0@webmail-m230.sysops.aol.com> <1391159277.18124.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1W9Hz0-05HVFQ0@fwd00.t-online.de> <3A360CAB-AAB1-46AB-906D-7C8BE3BF4653@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0ED07051F161F-25F0-C518@webmail-d274.sysops.aol.com> I ordered the book but it has to come from the UK. Might take a month, so it'll be awhile before I can give a book report. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jan 31, 2014 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day Carsten, Finding X-5 from "Operation Source" would make give you and your operation much notoriety. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Jan 31, 2014, at 12:34 PM, " " wrote: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tip-Spear-Submarines-Pamela-Mitchell/dp/1872955142 Ican recommed this book. Is written by Pamela, the daughter of theyard owner which developand build the subs. We exchange some letters manyyears ago to try to figure out the missing fates. A lot ofinside storys from first hand. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Jim, 5 men, 5 days in a sub on a diet of bakedbeans, Goshh they were tough in those days. Alan From:"jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, January31, 2014 8:33 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIdget subs at D-day Phil, Your D-day story left me curious to know more;found this: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm Jim Midget Submarines and DDay X-boats midget-submarines were used at D-Day bythe British to ensure that their landings went well. The crews of theX-boats were made up of commandosfrom the elite Combined Operations Pilotage and Reconnaissance Parties,formed on the orders of LordLouis Mountbatten.After the disaster that befell the Allies at Dieppe,everything was done to ensure success on June 6th 1944. Five days before June 5th the original datefor D-Day two X-boats sailed from Hayling Island, Hampshire. Eachmidget submarine had a crew of five men on board. It would be their taskto guide in the British landing craft at SwordBeach. The fear was that the landing craft might drift towards rocksthat skirted the specific landing points at Sword and it was the task onthe submarine crews to ensure the landing craft stayed oncourse. The space in each of the X-boats was extremely limited.Each submarine was just 51 feet in length and a maximum of 6 feet inwidth. The crew could not stand up once inside the X-boats. The crewstook it in turns to have a four-hour sleep in the battery compartment ofthe X-boats and their diet was mainly tea and baked beans. Once the crews had sailed to the beaches they simply had tolay in wait and vitally, ensure that they were not spotted by theGermans. If one had been spotted, it is quite possible that the gamewould have been up in terms of a surprise landing even if Hitlerwas convinced that the Allies would land in the Pays de Calais. Theexpertise of the crews was such that they watched unnoticed viaperiscope German soldiers playing football on Sword Beach just one daybefore the planned landings. However, both submarines had to surface at 22.00 to listento the BBC news broadcast at that time. While they were submergedneither crew could hear the news. It was vital that they did as a secretmessage was going to be broadcast on one of the bulletins that wouldtell them that the landings were on and that they had to be ready to dowhat was required of them. During one of these broadcasts, the crews learnt that thelandings were going to be delayed by a day. This put them in a quandaryas they did not know if they had enough oxygen on board to last them.When it was felt possible to do so, the crews would surface to allow themen to have a quick walk about on deck and to take in some freshair. The 22.00 BBC news on June 5th informed bothcrews via a secret message that D-Day was about to start. They now knewthat they had to be on duty at 04.00 on June 6th. They firstknew the landings had started when a huge fleet of bombers flew abovethem to bomb German positions along the coastline. The two crews knewthat it would not be much longer before the landing crafts arrived andit would their task to ensure they sailed on the right course to SwordBeach. The landing craft homed in on the lights that came from the twoX-boats. Casualties at Sword Beach were minimal when the sheer magnitudeof the raid is taken into account. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension Jon . . ahem, ahem, (jes clearin ma throat) Nuytco has always been at the UI submersible track yearafter year. This year well be talking about our 2013 work surveying and videoingthe WW2 Normandy Invasion fleet, most of which is still underwater. This was forHistory Channel and will air this year the 70th anniversary of Juneau,Omaha,Sword, etc. The shots of the Sherman tanks laying higgeldy piggeldy (sp?) allover the bottom are incredible. Jeff Heaton, Nuytcos senior ops manager had theunusual pleasure of using Aquarius to take down a 92 year old survivor ofthe invasion who was last there in 1944 aboard a small submarine, two daysbefore the invasion - to set lighting on the bottom to guide in the troopcarriers (the original schedule called for a night landing) the story of he and hiscrew lying doggo on the bottom for nearly two days offshore of the landingsite as weather changes kept re-arranging the schedule specially as they hadto surface at night to get communication on the changing plans well, its quite a story! Phil From: Jon Wallace Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:13 PM To: PersonalSubmersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater Intervention Convension I think others will agree, the majority of attendees are there for ROV related sessions. I have only everattended the manned vehicle sessions and never experienced an issue of not havinga seat. The convention center and session rooms are notsmall...we're not talking PSUBS size event here. The technical session rooms haveseats for...I'm guessing...200 people? And there is plenty of "standingroom" if all the seats were taken. ABS reps usually attend because they have discussions about proposed rule changes...can't recall thegentleman's name at the moment. I don't think I've seen a sub manufacturer otherthan Will Kohnen (seamagine) whom is the coordinator of the manned vehiclesessions at the convention. You'll have a good time there. It's worth the trip and no doubt there should be some psubbers in attendance as well. Jon On 1/30/2014 3:38 PM, Alan James wrote: Hi, I'm looking at going to the U.I. New Orleans convention in 10days time, & in particular attending the underwater vehicle technicalsessions. The registration fee entitles you to attend the technical sessions,so it seems the numbers at each session aren't restricted. They had 2,450 attendees last year so I'm wondering whether I run the risk of missing out throughlack of seats in the session rooms. Any experiencewith this from others who have attended thesesessions? Also are ABS or submersible manufacturers represented there? Have tried calling U.I. a couple oftimes but haven't been lucky. Thanks for the heads up on the conference Douglas. Hank, from G.L. rules...The CO2pressure needs to be kept below0.01 bar Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 22:03:37 2014 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 22:03:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 12V DC Sonar Implementation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, I find a laptop hard to imagine in a 250 just due to space constraints. I think the first thing I'd look at is whether one could interface the sonar to a tablet instead. Note that an iPad, for instance, has a 12 hour battery so you would save space, amps, and money by getting rid of the DC-AC converter. Best, Alec > On Jan 31, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Steve McQueen wrote: > > All, thought I would share an exercise I am noodling through. As an off shoot to developing my K-250 electrical layout I am looking at what it would take to add (later) a sonar system based on a 12V DC system. Thought I could get some feedback as well as provide an "example" for others considering a similar scenario. > > On the Psubs site under Submitter/Steve McQueen/K-250 Sonar Electrical you can find my initial version of a wiring diagram. In this example I used easily found components as a base reference. > > My current self inflicted design constraints: > Implementation of the Teledyne BlueView M-900 2D imaging sonar > Utilization of laptop for viewing (vs. separate processor with remote monitor) > Dedicated 12V DC sourced (separate from main 12V DC bank) > 4 hours of run time > > I am sure my initial design can be made more efficient. The initial design has 2 parallel 12V/150 Ah batteries which are larger and heavier than I'd like (22x4x11 inches or 560x110x280 mm and 89.3 lbs or 40.5 kg). This design gives 3.9 hrs of run time > > For me the design goal is to reduce battery footprint (size/weight) > > Any comments? Anyone have sonar based on 12V DC? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: