[PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Alan James
alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com
Mon Jan 27 15:54:06 EST 2014
Hank,
another plus with the window motors is that you can buy the control
unit for the 4 windows & you are set up with the forward & reverse on
4 degrees of motion. You could gear the system for more lifting
power, however that's a trade off for speed. I found the one I bought
was quite strong & they have been known to be capable of killing
people by strangulation.
Alan
________________________________
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Alan,
Electric window motors are excellent because they are water proof to a point. At least in the old cars they were.
Hank
On Monday, January 27, 2014 1:18:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
Jim, I've been slack & haven't had the sub in the water since I built that.
Too busy on the new boat. It is air compensated directly from the hull
which is at ambient pressure.
With the window winder unit, it could be air compensated by plumbing in a hose
connector where the wires come out & running the wires though tubing.
You then have a Y connection & run air in to this line at a pressure above ambient.
That is what I did with my 4 motors on my ambient sub.
Hugh came up with the good idea of using a certain type of pressure regulator set at 4psi
that vents overpressure & adjusts for ambient, to equalize motors. This would be ideal.
If you could mount the unit with the drive shaft pointing down it would help additionally in
keeping water out.
Another thought is the big 24v motors they have on some large linear actuators.
On a lot of actuators they bolt on to the side of the unit & contain the gearing.
I have a couple I picked up cheaply second hand.
Alan
From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" <jimtoddpsub at aol.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Alan,
I'm a big fan of worm gears as well. It yields very high mechanical advantage which gives you a lot of power from a small motor and great controlability for more precise movements and positioning. As I recall you used an automotive remote mirror system for a camera mount. Pretty slick idea! Any comments on what you ran into when doing that?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 1:09 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
I bought a window winder unit for $1-. It has a worm gear which is important,
as when you power off it will hold the load. Nice slow speed on the final drive
and a reasonable amount of power.
Alan
From: swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Cool. I am still in the research stage of an arm. I will eventually get there.
Thanks,
Scott
Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone
hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
Scott,
You can also pick up an old power seat from a car. The seat has three or four motors in one housing that drives cables or little drive shafts. Also you can use the linier actuators and slides. that is how I made my first arm a life time ago.
Hank
On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:58:01 AM, swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:
Oil compensated drill motor is a good idea. I have been trying to design a manipulator for Trustworthy.
Thanks,
Scott Waters
Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone
Phil Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com> wrote:
There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use – that is,
there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into
the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize
them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the
sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy
maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the
same time.
If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible
dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on
slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a
lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case
style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style
compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the
compression olive or the metal compression ring)– rack and pinion all stay out
side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it
worked OK – (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!)
Phil
From: Alan James
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Thanks Phil, great system description.
I
tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea
Urchin.
Would
appreciate seeing any pictures of it.
One
question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive &
ascend
from
causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with
this?
From the frustration I've heard from K
boat builders through ambiguities in the plans,
dangerous
elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely
to
ditch the Kitrege plans & replace
them. But I might get shot for saying that.
Alan
From: Phil
Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52
AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Manipulators
Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ‘Sea
Urchin’ sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions
(extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all,
CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves – one for
each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure
was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a
scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System pressure was kept
at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth by the first stage of a scuba
regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in
the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well – the exhaust into the
cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because
the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into
shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve – same one
used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving.
I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I’ll try
to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea
of putting out a Sea Urchin Kit – ala Kitteridge - but don’t know how much
interest there would be.
Phil
From: Alan James
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AM
To: Personal
Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US.
Not
sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but
couldn't
initiate a purchase.
http://http//robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231
Alan
From: Alan
James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PM
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
Thanks Vance,
I'll
have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are
problems
that
come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a
concertina
with
water pressure changes.
Alan
From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" <vbra676539 at aol.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sent: Saturday, January
25, 2014 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Manipulators
I can't answer, as I have precisely
zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea
Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry.
That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's
worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like
an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the
ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet
(according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about
$500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little
more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole
thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the
running inch).
Vance
-----Original
Message-----
From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014
3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
One more question Vance & I'll leave you in peace
for a week.
For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ft
that has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there
just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator
a good
option? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much because
of the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic
system.
And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items.
Thanks,
Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:
I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility.
>
>It seems to me that a permanently mounted air
source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up
for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB.
>
>Joe
>
>Sent
from Yahoo Mail for iPad
>
>From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>;
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
>Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM
>
>
>Thanks Vance,
>that's shed some light on the subject.
>Alan
>
>From: Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com>
>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators
>
>
>Alan,
>I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there. Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and so it goes.
>Vance
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Vance,
>>a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the shifting of
>>balance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked about countering it with
>>trim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up? Possibly more of a problem working on a
>>vertical face than picking something up off the bottom.
>>Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be
>>accentuated in our case.
>>Can you give us some of your experience on this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messing
>>about with the trim while operating the manipulator.
>>Alan
>>
>>
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