[PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical transition
Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sun May 4 16:54:37 EDT 2014
Hank,
What you see there is the original Seehund arrangement, my intention is as you say, up higher. The aft cone on mine essentially now an MBT. Those lower volumes will be flooded in practice, but I am wondering if they could be blown down dry to help with trailer launching and recovery??
Plenty, and I mean plenty of room along the centerline for keel ballast.
I keep thinking about what you've told me regarding Gammas attachment, always in the back of my mind!
Thanks Hank!
Joe
On Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Joe,
Your dive tanks are to low, they should be at the top of the sub. The way you have it will be less stable.
The motor pod should be okay, just like the K subs. You do not want your torpedo's to be buoyant, they should be as heavy as possible for stability.
Hank
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 5/4/14, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical transition
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Received: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 3:07 PM
I've incorporated
some of the suggestions in the attached drawing. Still,
I've got a lot to think about here but I am also excited
about the possibilities and the potential outcome. This
image should give some idea of what's on my mind.
What you see is the water ballast arrangement
on the original Seehund, and how my proposed pressure
boundary fits into this scaled down version. The following
is a list of concerns and or design
considerations.
1)
Clearly, I have no need to compensate for the loss of
torpedoes
2)
New pressure boundary provides for massive MBT volumes
(Low pressure compressor to blow down
volumes)
3)
Torpedo battery pods may need to incorporate some free
flooding spaces to reduce weight, or perhaps reduce battery capacity to a single pod in
lieu of the former forward water ballast tank, then
completely free flood both torpedoes completely??.
(Boat will incorporate a gen-set)
4) Questionable
reliability of external motor pod assembly.
5)
Stability considerations
Thanks for the input
gents, It really helps me to take a step back on
occasion!
Joe
On Sunday, May 4,
2014 10:19 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Joe,
When I mounted the tanks back on Gamma, I changed the
mounting location to give a greater angle also I did what
Vance is saying on a small scale. I then poured
a gallon of paint in
each tank and rolled the sub slowly to ensure there was
complete paint coverage. If I was operating in salt
water I would mount some nipples to the tanks with
plugs. After a dive in salt water, remove the plug and
you have access to spray fresh water inside and rinse the
salt water out. A large panel is a good idea also because
you
can open it up after each dive and let it dry out.
If I had a K350, I would not copy the Nekton tanks
exactly. I would change the shape so they have more
volume at the top reducing the rolling effect. Also I would
consider making them from SS. Also SS heads solves the
problems entirely. Start watching ebay for ss heads. I
once saw a ss tank exactly the same as a 500gal propane tank
for 1,500 dollars on ebay.
Hank
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 5/4/14, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical
transition
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Received: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 8:32 AM
Joe,
Consider using an elliptical head back there, for
starters. You aren't building for much depth here, so
the K-350 size will be fine (.375" ish). The ellipses
are cheaper, do the same job, and give you a touch more
inside room. Then I would have a cone rolled
with a short flange on the major diameter, maybe a couple
of
inches, to match the hull OD.
The Nekton cone-to-dome caused a
pinch point that was always a hassle to clean and paint,
and
ultimately left some pitting in the pressure hull that had
to
be weld-repaired. A short cylinder on the sheet metal
would give you a little more room under there to sandblast
and paint during assembly and later for overhauls. I would
say for maintenance a couple of flush-mount, gasketed
panels
in the tank would serve you well. Don't make them too
ornery to remove or you won't do it as often as you
will
wish you had.
I'm wondering now about my own
boat and using tanks like that. Is there anyone in the
group
who can plug and chug a metacentric height on Nekton tanks
installed on a K-350? Assembly would be so simple that
way.
And it would tow better, which is always a good thing. The
Nektons roll a bit, but are reasonably stable. A K with
the
pods should have plenty of weight down low. Hmm. Would it
work? I'm thinking yes. Anybody else have an opinion
on
that?
Vance
-----Original
Message-----
From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 12:28 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical
transition
Vance,
Rethinking that aft assembly to make it all soft tanks aft
of a hemi head ala Nekton.
If I go weld-on to the head ala Nekton, how best to attach
to the head to allow for periodic access and maintenance?
Joe
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
From:
via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
To:
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
Subject:
Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating
a conical transition
Sent:
Sat, May 3, 2014
2:03:36 PM
Joe,
It
seems like an expensive and complex assembly for what you
get. Why not close the aft segment in a simpler way and
fair
the stern to the shape you prefer? A hemisphere with an
extended shaft housing to put the prop where you want it,
for instance.
Vance
-----Original
Message-----
From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, May 3, 2014 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical
transition
Sean,
Yes,
a bolted flange with O ring.
I've
attached an image of what's on my mind. This hull is
36" OD, cylinder length is 120". Anything bigger
in diameter, simply gets way to big and bulky for
handling.
I'm
thinking at this size, I must bolt at least two hull
sections together for outfitting and maintenance, and the
cones can be un-stiffened or perhaps only at the
joints.
Joe
On Friday, May
2, 2014 9:50 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote:
Each cone section in that case is considered
alone, so if you were using stiffeners, you would need a
heavy stiffener at every joint. Depending on the size, it
may be simpler to use unstiffened geometry for such an
assembly.
The rules do not address bolting pressure
hull sections together, but I don't see why you
couldn't, provided you meet the requirements in terms
of
the stress analysis under the maximum combined loading
conditions, which are prescribed in the ABS rules.
Might
require some FEA to be sure. You're thinking an O-ring
groove seal? Or other arrangement? I think an ASME
code compliant flange would be a good place to start, but
I
would make sure that the cross-sectional area of each half
of the flange considered individually met the requirements
of a heavy stiffener per ABS, at a minimum material
location
(bolt hole). I would also be inclined to use SuperBolts
for
the connection.
http://www.nord-lock.com/superbolt/multi-jackbolt-tensioners/
Sean
On May 2, 2014 6:03:21
PM MDT, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote:
Sean,
Would the heavy stiffener rule apply equally to several
cone
segments stepping down at different angles?
Also, do ASME pipe flange specifications translate equally
to bolted pressure hull sections? Have I missed a section
somewhere on bolted cylindrical sections?
Very helpful Sean thank you!
Joe
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
From:
Sean T. Stevenson
via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
To:
Personal
Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
Subject:
Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating
a conical transition
Sent:
Fri, May 2, 2014
11:45:11 PM
2:1 semi-elliptical heads are usually
fabricated with some length of straight flange (tangential
cylindrical section) beyond the axis of the ellipse.
Hemispherical heads may or may not have a straight flange
section, but in either case are permissible to use
adjacent
to conical sections, provided all other requirements are
met. For stiffened cones, you must have stiffeners meeting
the "heavy stiffener" criteria at both ends, as
close as practicable to the cone-to-cylinder and
cone-to-head transitions. For unstiffened cones, the
length
L_c used in overall buckling calculations must be the
total
length between the next heavy stiffener to either side of
the entire compartment length, or between the 40% of head
depth points if otherwise
unbounded. Cone to head
welds are done in the same manner as cone to cylinder
welds,
and if your
head is supplied w!
ith a
flange, it is the same
thing.
Sean
On May 2, 2014 2:48:52
PM MDT, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote:
I have
spotted the ABS diagrams and specifications for
re-enforcement and butt welds at conical to cylinder
transitions. I am somewhat unclear however as to
terminating
at the head.
For
example, the diagrams in the 2014 ABS underwater vehicles
and hyperbaric chamber publication shows conical
transitions
either bordered by a
cylinder at either end, or simply open
at the small end???
I want to terminate the small end of a conical
transition
directly to a small diameter hemi-head without another
straight section, but I am unclear as to whether or
not
that is acceptable
in practice.
Joe
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