From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 13:54:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 10:54:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Message-ID: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 14:27:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 11:27:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Message-ID: <20141005112740.8BDB47BA@m0048139.ppops.net> These things could be an option http://www.hawkpumps.co.za/newsletters/May-June-2010.pdf --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 10:54:19 -0700 Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 14:29:10 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 11:29:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lobster season Message-ID: <20141005112910.8BDB47AD@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 14:38:15 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 14:38:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 14:47:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2014 14:47:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k600 port In-Reply-To: <1410715479.26819.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410715479.26819.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5431923B.2050802@psubs.org> Sorry, I have been away a while. K600 main port is 12 inches diameter with 8.5 inch viewable diameter inside. From the conning tower seat it is like looking through a soda straw. I plan on replacing it with a 24 inch dome port, probably 120 degree segment. Jon On 9/14/2014 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Jon, > Can you tell me the size of your bow window, is it the same dai as the K350 except thicker. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 15:13:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 12:13:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Message-ID: <20141005121343.8BDAB88C@m0048139.ppops.net> or how about this one: http://www.autoclave.com/Autoclave_pumps/products/pumps/ACHL189_01/index.html --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 10:54:19 -0700 Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 15:21:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 15:21:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k600 port In-Reply-To: <5431923B.2050802@psubs.org> References: <1410715479.26819.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5431923B.2050802@psubs.org> Message-ID: Wow, that is a huge enhancement. I'm hoping to see the K600 in the Keys next year if we can have the convention there. Alec On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sorry, I have been away a while. K600 main port is 12 inches diameter > with 8.5 inch viewable diameter inside. From the conning tower seat it is > like looking through a soda straw. I plan on replacing it with a 24 inch > dome port, probably 120 degree segment. > > Jon > > > > On 9/14/2014 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi Jon, >> Can you tell me the size of your bow window, is it the same dai as the >> K350 except thicker. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 15:26:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 12:26:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k600 port In-Reply-To: <5431923B.2050802@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1412537193.76737.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' Jon, I figured it was a bit smaller than the 350's I am trying a camera system with camera's mounted in the ports before I et drastic with larger ports. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/5/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k600 port To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 5, 2014, 2:47 PM Sorry, I have been away a while.? K600 main port is 12 inches diameter with 8.5 inch viewable diameter inside.? From the conning tower seat it is like looking through a soda straw.? I plan on replacing it with a 24 inch dome port, probably 120 degree segment. Jon On 9/14/2014 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Jon, > Can you tell me the size of your bow window, is it the same dai as the K350 except thicker. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 17:46:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 21:46:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1518903574.436228.1412545593296.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100134.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank,as I touched on integrating a variable ballast system, I thoughtI'd paste this post from Phil on how the DW variable ballast systemworks. He makes mention of pumping out with a manual hydraulic pump. Re: Seat VBT: The system was one we (Nuytco) used in the earliest DeepWorker model subs ? starting around ?97. The seats were black, roto-cast plastic designed for use on/in snowmobiles, home-built race cars, dune buggies and the like ? and they were hollow. We came up with the idea of using them as a VBT that could be very precisely trimmed immediately pre-dive and could be easily changed (made heavier or lighter) during the dive.? The seat was drilled and tapped for an inlet and outlet line. The water inlet line/hose had a needle valve on the inside of the hull at a convenient spot? for the pilot to reach. The outlet line/hose led to a simple, manually-operated hydraulic hand pump and from there to a? second on/off valve in front of a non-return valve plumbed through a hull penetrator. To use, the DW was trimmed to be buoyant with the seat empty. while the pilot was floating on the surface and the load line cast off, he opened the inlet valve to allow water into the seat until the dome went under and then the inlet valve was then shut off. This made the hull slightly negative and it would sink slowly, or faster with additional down thrusting. This, for pilots who like to dive a bit heavy. To lighten up, the outlet valve is opened and the water pumped out until the sub became buoyant ? just a few strokes, usually. We did try using a heavy duty plastic bag full of fresh water attached to the inlet side to avoid the plankton and assorted little critters when diving in sea water ? but we wound up just flushing the seat tank with fresh, soapy water after an ocean dive and that worked fine. All and all, a pretty neat systems except for a few downsides: Ambient water is pretty cold at depth and chills the butt and back ? and, you have to studiously remember to shut the inlet valve, particularly at any appreciable depth, because even with a needle valve the water comes in fast. We had a hole in the top of the seat as an over-flow? and sometimes got sprayed by the overflow if something distracted you while allowing water in, and a few other minor things. At the time we had this system in place, we were training a bunch ( (40 ? 50) scientists as DW pilots over a two year period ? the experienced pilots had no problem with the seat VBT but we figured it was just too many things going on for new trainees, and so reverted to a conventional nylon box with holes in the bottom as the VBT, and that?s what we use today.? Speaking of which, we brought a couple of DW?s back from a series of science dives in California, a month or so ago ? after a few days in the shop one the DWs developed an extreme case of ?body odor?? - turned out to be a squid decomposing in the VBT!? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 6:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 18:31:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 22:31:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <672376746.438747.1412548292675.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100139.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sending this one again as I didn't recieve it.Hank,glad you posted, I thought I wasn't getting any mail.From memory G.L. require a bilge pump with an ability to pump outall spaces in the sub.I don't think they require?high pressure pumps for pumping out at depth as?they talk about allowing an interconectability between the bilge pump &trim tank system. So this implies you can have one pump for the trim tanks &?a valve system from it to?pump out the bilge.I would guess you would need a one way valve & a stop valve on the through hull.If you had large enough trim tanks you could use them as a ballast tank as well.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 6:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 5 19:20:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 16:20:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <672376746.438747.1412548292675.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100139.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412551230.13157.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I thought you mentioned that they were required. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/5/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 5, 2014, 6:31 PM Sending this one again as I didn't recieve it.Hank,glad you posted, I thought I wasn't getting any mail.From memory G.L. require a bilge pump with an ability to pump outall spaces in the sub.I don't think they require?high pressure pumps for pumping out at depth as?they talk about allowing an interconectability between the bilge pump &trim tank system. So this implies you can have one pump for the trim tanks &?a valve system from it to?pump out the bilge.I would guess you would need a one way valve & a stop valve on the through hull.If you had large enough trim tanks you could use them as a ballast tank as well.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 6:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 02:26:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 06:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs Message-ID: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> HiI'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here.I want ?to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.)Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per JamesCameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display.I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the4" C-more touch screen.http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayedcontinuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy toconfigure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic.They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my ownwhere necessary.Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction?Regards Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 07:13:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 12:13:04 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Ive got one of these on board. Its not much, but got to be better than nothing. A hose connects to the snorkel inlet and it can be plopped anywhere I need it. Obviously only any use on the surface. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whale-GP1652-Submersible-Pump-High/dp/9788064647/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1412593734&sr=8-5&keywords=whale+water+pump On 5 October 2014 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or > low pressure for the surface only. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 08:12:24 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 05:12:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1412597544.93045.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi James, I like it, probably will never use it but maybe just peace of mind makes it worth having. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/6/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 7:13 AM Hi Hank,?Ive got one of these on board.? Its not much, but got to be better than nothing.? A hose connects to the snorkel inlet and it can be plopped anywhere I need it.? Obviously only any use on the surface.?http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whale-GP1652-Submersible-Pump-High/dp/9788064647/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1412593734&sr=8-5&keywords=whale+water+pump?? On 5 October 2014 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 09:03:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 07:03:28 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if just to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up. Sean On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Not required. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high >pressure or low pressure for the surface only. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 15:10:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 08:10:23 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Some additional comments to my previous post are that I am finding it hard locating a small touch screen for use in harsh environments & don't necessarily need a touch screen, as it may be better to have scroll & function buttons operating either off my motor control joy sticks, or nearby. So these scroll / function buttons would be wired in to the PLC first. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/10/2014, at 7:26 pm, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi > I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. > I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.) > Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per James > Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. > I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the > 4" C-more touch screen. > http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL > It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayed > continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy to > configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic. > They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my own > where necessary. > Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction? > Regards Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 15:55:52 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 08:55:52 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: References: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5432f3aa.1123460a.0f57.ffff99b8@mx.google.com> They are called HMI interfaces and available with many PLC?s. Otherwise there are a bunch of Tuff book options through Panasonic. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs Some additional comments to my previous post are that I am finding it hard locating a small touch screen for use in harsh environments & don't necessarily need a touch screen, as it may be better to have scroll & function buttons operating either off my motor control joy sticks, or nearby. So these scroll / function buttons would be wired in to the PLC first. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2014, at 7:26 pm, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.) Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per James Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the 4" C-more touch screen. http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayed continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy to configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic. They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my own where necessary. Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction? Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 16:27:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 09:27:16 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> Hi Sean, Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub! Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements for a bilge pump? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it. My section 11 stopped prematurely. Cheers, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if just to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up. Sean On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 16:47:42 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 13:47:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1412628462.98217.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ummm Hugh, Don't all subs have a coffee maker? :-) Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/6/14, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 4:27 PM #yiv9957898075 #yiv9957898075 -- _filtered #yiv9957898075 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9957898075 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9957898075 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9957898075 #yiv9957898075 p.yiv9957898075MsoNormal, #yiv9957898075 li.yiv9957898075MsoNormal, #yiv9957898075 div.yiv9957898075MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9957898075 a:link, #yiv9957898075 span.yiv9957898075MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9957898075 a:visited, #yiv9957898075 span.yiv9957898075MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9957898075 p {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9957898075 pre {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv9957898075 span.yiv9957898075HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;} #yiv9957898075 span.yiv9957898075EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9957898075 .yiv9957898075MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9957898075 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9957898075 div.yiv9957898075WordSection1 {} #yiv9957898075 Hi Sean,Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub!Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements for a bilge pump?? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it.? My section 11 stopped prematurely.Cheers,? Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump ?The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9.That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if just to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up.Sean ?On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 16:49:24 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 14:49:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Do you have the 2014 revision? The numbering changes with the version. I'll post it when I get home this evening. Seam On October 6, 2014 2:27:16 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean, > >Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub! > >Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements >for a bilge pump? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it. > My section 11 stopped prematurely. > >Cheers, Hugh > > > > > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. >Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump > > > >The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. > >That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just >from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and >I would consider this in design, even if just to ensure accessability >to these spaces for mopping up. > >Sean > > > >On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Not required. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone >On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure >or low pressure for the surface only. > Hank > > _____ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _____ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 17:07:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 14:07:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add Message-ID: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma. I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change. When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside. A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad. Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch. It is getting better with the air temps dropping. I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 17:14:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 21:14:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <5432f3aa.1123460a.0f57.ffff99b8@mx.google.com> References: <5432f3aa.1123460a.0f57.ffff99b8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1989643186.550629.1412630095430.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100131.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Hugh,having the right nomenclature has brought up a lot more options in the search.I like my idea of scrolling screens off buttons on the motor control joy sticks &may have to add that function to a touch screen as most HMI interfaces aretouch screens.Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs #yiv1456867366 #yiv1456867366 -- _filtered #yiv1456867366 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1456867366 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1456867366 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1456867366 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv1456867366 #yiv1456867366 p.yiv1456867366MsoNormal, #yiv1456867366 li.yiv1456867366MsoNormal, #yiv1456867366 div.yiv1456867366MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1456867366 a:link, #yiv1456867366 span.yiv1456867366MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1456867366 a:visited, #yiv1456867366 span.yiv1456867366MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1456867366 span.yiv1456867366EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv1456867366 .yiv1456867366MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv1456867366 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv1456867366 div.yiv1456867366WordSection1 {}#yiv1456867366 They are called HMI interfaces and available with many PLC?s.Otherwise there are a bunch of Tuff book options through Panasonic. ? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 8:10 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs ?Some additional comments to my previous post are that I amfinding it hard locating a small touch screen for use in harsh environments &don't ?necessarily need a touch screen, as it may be better to have scroll & function?buttons operating either off my motor control joy sticks, or nearby.So these scroll / function buttons would be wired in to the PLC first.Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2014, at 7:26 pm, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HiI'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here.I want ?to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.)Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per JamesCameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display.I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the4" C-more touch screen.http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CLIt may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayedcontinuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy toconfigure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic.They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my ownwhere necessary.Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction?Regards Alan ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 17:19:42 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 10:19:42 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <54330774.446f440a.4d9e.ffffadcf@mx.google.com> No, don?t have it. New Zealand is a bit behind, you know, south pacific time, island maidens and politicians to suit! Just had a major power outage in Auckland. Someone tripped over the cord and pulled out the plug. Half the city was out for 2 days. I guess I will have to update! Thks, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 9:49 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Do you have the 2014 revision? The numbering changes with the version. I'll post it when I get home this evening. Seam On October 6, 2014 2:27:16 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub! Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements for a bilge pump? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it. My section 11 stopped prematurely. Cheers, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if ju! st to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up. Sean On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 An! tivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:09:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <349560591.14971.1412576765579.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> I have had great sucess with AutomationDirect PLC and HMIs. There kit is inexpensive and tech support is outstanding. I used this kit on the R300 and am planning on using for my next boat. Cliff Redus > On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi > I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. > I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.) > Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per James > Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. > I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the > 4" C-more touch screen. > http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL > It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayed > continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy to > configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic. > They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my own > where necessary. > Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction? > Regards Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:19:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 22:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address analarm issue?I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate.?My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change.? When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:27:10 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 15:27:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc I think my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address analarm issue?I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate.?My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change.? When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:37:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 16:37:56 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5e21966d-3e46-4e4a-aea1-7b12c803da9a@email.android.com> Keep in mind that unless the reference volume inside the bellows is thermally insulated from the cabin air, it's going to be somewhat temperature compensated as the air inside the bellows cools as well. That said, I don't imagine it's a big deal to dial in an adjustment. Sean On October 6, 2014 3:07:22 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma. I am >not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature >change. When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a >big negative pressure inside. A bellows add system would be dumping O2 >in like mad. Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an >automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to >avoid O2 build up. >When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I >have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to >equalize the sub to open the hatch. It is getting better with the air >temps dropping. I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:36:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 22:36:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1642491674.557029.1412634980118.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100119.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank,you have a much larger boat than the DW, so the atmosphere changes more slowly.On the Tritan 3000 ($3,000,000 sub) they told me there was no automatic O2addition; they just increased or decreased the flow manually.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add Alan, I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc? I think my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address analarm issue?I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate.?My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan ? ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add ? I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change.? When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:42:07 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 16:42:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <54330774.446f440a.4d9e.ffffadcf@mx.google.com> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> <54330774.446f440a.4d9e.ffffadcf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1209020173.16053382.1412635327183.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> https://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/Rules&Guides/Current/7_UWVS_2014/UWVSRules Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 3:19:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump No, don?t have it. New Zealand is a bit behind, you know, south pacific time, island maidens and politicians to suit! Just had a major power outage in Auckland. Someone tripped over the cord and pulled out the plug. Half the city was out for 2 days. I guess I will have to update! Thks, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 9:49 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Do you have the 2014 revision? The numbering changes with the version. I'll post it when I get home this evening. Seam On October 6, 2014 2:27:16 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Sean, Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub! Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements for a bilge pump? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it. My section 11 stopped prematurely. Cheers, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if ju! st to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up. Sean On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 An! tivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:48:52 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 16:48:52 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f88e5a5-8179-46f1-aeea-20c72f7acb3d@email.android.com> Space requirements aside, I think your coffee roaster is going to be a huge battery draw... ;-) Sean On October 6, 2014 4:19:48 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought >that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add >systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into >the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. >They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too >high or low but how they would address analarm issue?I don't know.I >like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 >addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a >PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the >Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green >beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate.?My side of >Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add > >I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I am >not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature >change.? When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a >big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 >in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an >automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to >avoid O2 build up. >When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I >have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to >equalize the sub to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air >temps dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:58:11 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 15:58:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412629642.5078.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412636291.2369.YahooMailNeo@web181206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> FYI, When I first setup life support system for the R300, I tried to implement a bellows add without the bellows by having the PLC monitor cabin pressure with an accurate barometric pressure sensor (700-1400mBar). The ladder logic would trigger a O2 add when the cabin pressure dropped below a low pressure set point. I found that the system did t work very well for my boat as my cabin pressure was not constant enough due to pressure build due to slow leak into the cabin or due to temperature swings. I abandoned using cabin pressure to trigger O2 makeup and went to measuring the O2 concentration. If the O2 concentration drops two percent below normal air concentration, I trigger O2 makeup at 4 times normal consumption rate until concentration increased to 1% above normal. This approach worked way better for my boat. I am planning on using the same technique in my next boat. ________________________________ From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I agree Hank, I think you should email Phil & warn him:) I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add system would stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows add unit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitors with set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address an alarm issue I don't know. I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generated by O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to a rebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger. Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would grow them if we had the climate. My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma. I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change. When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside. A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad. Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch. It is getting better with the air temps dropping. I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 18:59:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 11:59:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54331ef3.45c8440a.18f3.ffffc6ad@mx.google.com> A point that I have been pondering is that DW's pull a vacuum and I plan to pull a vacuum as is also possible with any other system. My question is in the event of an emergency where the Sub is on the surface or brought to the surface with an unconscious bod inside and a vacuum, then what methods are available to get air back inside to allow surface support to get the hatch to open. With a vacuum then it would be almost impossible to open the hatch against the vacuum. Positive pressure is not a problem as a relief valve will compensate automatically. If the relief valve is easily accessible then it can be unscrewed. What others are being used? Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 11:27 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add Alan, I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc I think my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address analarm issue?I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate.?My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change.? When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 19:04:38 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 12:04:38 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump In-Reply-To: <1209020173.16053382.1412635327183.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> References: <1412531659.82133.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5432fb06.45d4440a.12c8.ffffa7a7@mx.google.com> <54330774.446f440a.4d9e.ffffadcf@mx.google.com> <1209020173.16053382.1412635327183.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: <5433200c.6c82460a.4a0b.40c3@mx.google.com> Many thanks Sean. Kind regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 11:42 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump https://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/Rules &Guides/Current/7_UWVS_2014/UWVSRules Sean _____ From: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 3:19:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump No, don?t have it. New Zealand is a bit behind, you know, south pacific time, island maidens and politicians to suit! Just had a major power outage in Auckland. Someone tripped over the cord and pulled out the plug. Half the city was out for 2 days. I guess I will have to update! Thks, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 9:49 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump Do you have the 2014 revision? The numbering changes with the version. I'll post it when I get home this evening. Seam On October 6, 2014 2:27:16 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, Nice to know you have a coffee machine in your sub! Are you able to provide chapter and verse on the passenger requirements for a bilge pump? Only as a matter of interest but I couldn?t find it. My section 11 stopped prematurely. Cheers, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 2:03 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bilge pump The exception being for passenger submersibles, as per ABS 11/49.9. That said, I think some water ingress is inevitable, even if it is just from admitting rain through an open hatch or spilling your coffee, and I would consider this in design, even if ju! st to ensure accessability to these spaces for mopping up. Sean On October 5, 2014 12:38:15 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not required. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2014, at 1:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Are bilge pumps common or required by ABS, if so are they high pressure or low pressure for the surface only. Hank _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10518 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 An! tivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10520 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 19:24:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 17:24:28 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <54331ef3.45c8440a.18f3.ffffc6ad@mx.google.com> References: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54331ef3.45c8440a.18f3.ffffc6ad@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <653d8800-b7f6-4122-86b8-158ed039c06e@email.android.com> In a rescue or recovery scenario with obviously disabled occupants (Thinking hypercapnia, hypoxia, cardiac arrest, etc.)? Get it open no matter what it takes. I'd probably look to loosen a fitting first, but in the absence of anything obvious, drilling a hole in an acrylic viewport takes no time at all. Sean On October 6, 2014 4:59:56 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >A point that I have been pondering is that DW's pull a vacuum and I >plan to >pull a vacuum as is also possible with any other system. My question >is in >the event of an emergency where the Sub is on the surface or brought to >the >surface with an unconscious bod inside and a vacuum, then what methods >are >available to get air back inside to allow surface support to get the >hatch >to open. With a vacuum then it would be almost impossible to open the >hatch >against the vacuum. Positive pressure is not a problem as a relief >valve >will compensate automatically. If the relief valve is easily >accessible >then it can be unscrewed. What others are being used? Hugh > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 11:27 a.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add > > >Alan, >I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc I >think >my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. >Hank------------------------------------------- >On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM > > I agree > Hank,I think >you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an >air >leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They >have >a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual >feed of >O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set >point >alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how they would address >analarm >issue?I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume >flowing in >(as per > DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 >measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar >to >arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't >get >me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would >growthem if we had the climate.?My side of Auckland had power. Hugh >lives >on the Dark side.Alan > > > From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October > 7, 2014 10:07 AM > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add > > >I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma.? I >am >not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature >change.? >When I am diving Gamma the temperature swing is huge causing a big >negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in >like >mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air >release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 >build >up. >When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I >have >to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize >the sub >to open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps >dropping.? I >can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature >database 10521 (20141006) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature >database 10521 (20141006) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 19:49:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 12:49:28 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <653d8800-b7f6-4122-86b8-158ed039c06e@email.android.com> References: <274438820.554380.1412633988171.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100166.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412634430.81668.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54331ef3.45c8440a.18f3.ffffc6ad@mx.google.com> <653d8800-b7f6-4122-86b8-158ed039c06e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <54332a8f.839c420a.4f4b.ffffb7c6@mx.google.com> Mmmm must get some ?Don?t drill here? stickers for the expensive ones. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 12:24 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In a rescue or recovery scenario with obviously disabled occupants (Thinking hypercapnia, hypoxia, cardiac arrest, etc.)? Get it open no matter what it takes. I'd probably look to loosen a fitting first, but in the absence of anything obvious, drilling a hole in an acrylic viewport takes no time at all. Sean On October 6, 2014 4:59:56 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A point that I have been pondering is that DW's pull a vacuum and I plan to pull a vacuum as is also possible with any other system. My question is in the event of an emergency where the Sub is on the surface or brought to the surface with an unconscious bod inside and a vacuum, then what methods are available to get air back inside to allow surface support to get the hatch to open. With a vacuum then it would be almost impossible to open the hatch against the vacuum. Positive pressure is not a problem as a relief valve will compensate automatically. If the relief valve is easily accessible then it can be unscrewed. What others are being used? Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 11:27 a.m. To: Personal Submersi! bles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add Alan, I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc I think my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. Hank _____ On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the bellows add systemwould stop adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the bellows addunit & a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would have O2 monitorswith set point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how the! y would address analarm issue I don't know.I like Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is similar to arebreather & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea Challenger.Don't get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans & roast them. Would growthem if we had the climate. My side of Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add system for Gamma. I am not sure how the DW deals with pressure change due to temperature change. When I am diving Gam! ma the temperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside. A bellows add system would be dumping O2 in like mad. Does the DW have an automatic O2 over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to open the hatch. It is getting better with the air temps dropping. I can't wait to go for a dive when it is snowing. Hank _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 20:22:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 00:22:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add In-Reply-To: <54332a8f.839c420a.4f4b.ffffb7c6@mx.google.com> References: <54332a8f.839c420a.4f4b.ffffb7c6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1525420183.380209.1412641360398.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10086.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Perhaps a bolt with O-ring seal in a spare accessible through hull,& a correct sized spanner on the support vessel.Or an external means of pulling open the over expansion valve, asthe force needed would be a lot less than for the hatch.Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add #yiv2900744651 #yiv2900744651 -- _filtered #yiv2900744651 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2900744651 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2900744651 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv2900744651 #yiv2900744651 p.yiv2900744651MsoNormal, #yiv2900744651 li.yiv2900744651MsoNormal, #yiv2900744651 div.yiv2900744651MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2900744651 a:link, #yiv2900744651 span.yiv2900744651MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2900744651 a:visited, #yiv2900744651 span.yiv2900744651MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2900744651 p {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2900744651 pre {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv2900744651 p.yiv2900744651MsoAcetate, #yiv2900744651 li.yiv2900744651MsoAcetate, #yiv2900744651 div.yiv2900744651MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv2900744651 span.yiv2900744651HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;}#yiv2900744651 span.yiv2900744651EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv2900744651 span.yiv2900744651BalloonTextChar {}#yiv2900744651 .yiv2900744651MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2900744651 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv2900744651 div.yiv2900744651WordSection1 {}#yiv2900744651 Mmmm? must get some ?Don?t drill here? stickers for the expensive ones. ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 12:24 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add ?In a rescue or recovery scenario with obviously disabled occupants (Thinking hypercapnia, hypoxia, cardiac arrest, etc.)? Get it open no matter what it takes. I'd probably look to loosen a fitting first, but in the absence of anything obvious, drilling a hole in an acrylic viewport takes no time at all.Sean ?On October 6, 2014 4:59:56 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A point that I have been pondering is that DW's pull a vacuum and I plan to pull a vacuum as is also possible with any other system.? My question is in the event of an emergency where the Sub is on the surface or brought to the surface with an unconscious bod inside and a vacuum, then what methods are available to get air back inside to allow surface support to get the hatch to open.? With a vacuum then it would be almost impossible to open the hatch against the vacuum.? Positive pressure is not a problem as a relief valve will compensate automatically.? If the relief valve is easily accessible then it can be unscrewed.? What others are being used??? Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014 11:27 a.m. To: Personal Submersi! blesGeneral Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add Alan, I am sure they have a system that reacts to high O2 levels etc etc? I think my situation is unique and a bellows add does not makes sense. Hank On Mon, 10/6/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 6, 2014, 6:19 PM ?I agree Hank,I think you should email Phil & warn him:)I have? thought that if there was an air leak in to the cabin the? bellows add systemwould stop? adding O2. They have a manual system integrated into the? bellows addunit &? a continual feed of O2 regardless of the belows. They would? have O2 monitorswith set? point alarms if the O2 % was too high or low but how the! y? wouldaddress analarm issue?I don't know.I like? Cliff's method of having a set volume flowing in (as per DW) & O2 addition generatedby O2 measurements opening an O2 solenoid valve via a PLC. This is? similar to arebreather? & James Cameron's system on the Deepsea? Challenger.Don't? get me going on the coffee issue. I buy green beans &? roast them. Would growthem if we? had the climate.?My side of? Auckland had power. Hugh lives on the Dark side.Alan ????? ????From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:07 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bellows add ?? ? ?I have been pondering the idea of a bellows add? system for Gamma.? I am not sure how the DW deals with? pressure change due to temperature change.? When I am? diving Gam! ma thetemperature swing is huge causing a big negative pressure inside.? A bellows add system would be? dumping O2 in like mad.? Does the DW have an automatic O2? over ride or an automatic air release to compensate. Does? the pilot manually add air to avoid O2 build up. When I surface after a dive without the? scrubber or O2 feeding in, I have to open my hatch vent? valve for what seems like forever to equalize the sub to? open the hatch.? It is getting better with the air temps? dropping.? I can't wait to go for a dive when it is? snowing. ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ?? ??? ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10521 (20141006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 6 20:38:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 00:38:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> References: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1173147157.493443.1412642297459.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10052.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks again Cliff,I was impressed with their web site & support videos.They make it all seem easy. There is a C-more 4" colour monitorwith IP65 rating that is looking good.Have just filed those fine details on your O2 system, that may saveme a bit of time experimenting.CheersAlan From: Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs I have had great sucess with AutomationDirect PLC and HMIs. ?There kit is inexpensive and tech support is outstanding. I used this kit on the R300 and am planning on using for my next boat. ? Cliff Redus On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HiI'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here.I want ?to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.)Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per JamesCameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display.I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the4" C-more touch screen.http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayedcontinuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy toconfigure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic.They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my ownwhere necessary.Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction?Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 7 19:22:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:22:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] project 765 Message-ID: <1412724169.88772.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> John, I just came across your pictures posted of project 765, all I can say is Holy #@#@^&*%$t That is Fantastic, you are making real progress. I will be watching for more pictures, do you do tours? I think the next convention should be at your shop! Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 05:55:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 09:55:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners Message-ID: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners.I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins to work against you.This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing??Regards Alan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:19:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 03:19:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412763597.77061.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, It would be nice to have some kind of forward obstruction avoidance, I think the fish finder scanning beam may be to wide. We played around with that, with no luck. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/8/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners To: "psubs.org" Received: Wednesday, October 8, 2014, 5:55 AM Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners.I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins to work against you.This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing??Regards Alan. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:34:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 03:34:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coupler design flaw Message-ID: <1412764494.11056.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> It seems my magnetic coupler has a design flaw. When the drive assembly is installed in the sub, it is in the horizontal position creating an air pocket inside the barrier. When I fill the shaft tube with oil, I can not remove this air pocket. I can fill the assembly with oil before installation, but that is a pain if I loose some oil for whatever reason. I have some options, first I have just installed a small bicycle inner tube to act as a compensation bladder inside the ballast tank. My thinking is that it has enough volume of oil to offset the air pocket. I can also replace the shaft bearings with a cutless type bushing, eliminating the need for oil. The last solution is to fill the assembly with oil prior to installation and add a small oil reservoir above the assembly to insure there is always enough oil in case some escapes. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:44:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 23:44:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: <1412763597.77061.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412763597.77061.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, most fish finders I've looked at come with dual beam functions like 20 degrees & 60 degrees. The 20 degrees is for deeper water & not so accurate in closer; but you don't want to see minnows, just rocks & tree stumps:). Perhaps the 20 degree beam would work? What sort of problems did you have? How did the set up work best. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/10/2014, at 11:19 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > It would be nice to have some kind of forward obstruction avoidance, I think the fish finder scanning beam may be to wide. We played around with that, with no luck. > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 10/8/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners > To: "psubs.org" > Received: Wednesday, October 8, 2014, 5:55 AM > > Has anyone > had any experience or know anything about forward > scanners.I'm > reading.....Without > moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more akin to a > conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its > effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to > about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in > shallow depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep > water, this is great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of > course, if you are operating in shallow waters such as the > Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio > begins to work against you.This seems > to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or > closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for > collision avoidance from the alarm settings These would just > pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather than an obstruction > coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be mounted > so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, > pointing more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget > about the alarm function. Am I just as well off buying a > fish finder & mounting that forward > facing? Regards > Alan. > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:45:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2014 04:45:14 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What you probably want is a sector scan sonar. This employs a horizontal beam that sweeps 360? around the boat, giving you the best situational awareness, and is easy to interpret. This would be in conjunction with a single transducer altitude indicator. If you actually wanted to automate navigation, then a DVL (Doppler velocity log) is probably in order. This is a four beam system which gives you differential movement, but the last time I checked was $15 K or so. I might look at a unit like this: http://www.imagenex.com/html/881l-gs.html Sean On October 8, 2014 3:55:08 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward >scanners.I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan >transducer is more akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped >on its side. Its effective range is about eight times the actual depth, >up to about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow >depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is >great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are >operating in shallow waters such as the Bahamas or portions of the >Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins to work against you.This seems >to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or closer in a >submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance from the >alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather >than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be >mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing >more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm >function. Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that >forward facing??Regards Alan. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:51:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 23:51:36 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coupler design flaw In-Reply-To: <1412764494.11056.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1412764494.11056.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I am not following you on that one, but I used a bike inner tube to try & compensate an AGM battery & filled it with baby oil. The oil degraded the inner tube in relatively short time, so watch for that. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/10/2014, at 11:34 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > It seems my magnetic coupler has a design flaw. When the drive assembly is installed in the sub, it is in the horizontal position creating an air pocket inside the barrier. When I fill the shaft tube with oil, I can not remove this air pocket. I can fill the assembly with oil before installation, but that is a pain if I loose some oil for whatever reason. I have some options, first I have just installed a small bicycle inner tube to act as a compensation bladder inside the ballast tank. My thinking is that it has enough volume of oil to offset the air pocket. I can also replace the shaft bearings with a cutless type bushing, eliminating the need for oil. The last solution is to fill the assembly with oil prior to installation and add a small oil reservoir above the assembly to insure there is always enough oil in case some escapes. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 06:57:15 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 23:57:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: References: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Sean, I am looking for the under $500- solution. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/10/2014, at 11:45 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > What you probably want is a sector scan sonar. This employs a horizontal beam that sweeps 360? around the boat, giving you the best situational awareness, and is easy to interpret. This would be in conjunction with a single transducer altitude indicator. > > If you actually wanted to automate navigation, then a DVL (Doppler velocity log) is probably in order. This is a four beam system which gives you differential movement, but the last time I checked was $15 K or so. > > I might look at a unit like this: > > http://www.imagenex.com/html/881l-gs.html > > Sean > > >> On October 8, 2014 3:55:08 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners. >> I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins to work against you. >> This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing? >> Regards Alan. >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 07:00:03 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 07:00:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I made multiple attempts to use an Interphase Vista, which sounds a lot like what you're describing, but was never able to make anything of what I saw on the display and ended up getting rid of it. Technically I suppose it worked, but I could not interpret the images. I know far better ones are available now, but if what you're looking at is an Interphase, I would suggest it might be worth while going for the next step up price-wise. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners. > I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more > akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its > effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet > ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with > parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting > rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such > as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins > to work against you. > This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or > closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance > from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below > rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these > be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing > more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. > Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing? > Regards Alan. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 07:35:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 00:35:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: References: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alec, I had a look at the Interfase scout, & they make comment that ..... " The unit is not designed to provide forward "bottom" image, but will provide a bottom chart mode directly under the boat. Some limitations are observed in very shallow ranges." That's a bit of a warning that 2 of you haven't had much success. Just had a a look at a guy experimenting with a fish finder for forward sonar on a ROV. He was really having trouble interpreting what was happening with the on screen representation of a bucket moving toward the transducer in his swimming pool. ( there are other nuts out there) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/10/2014, at 12:00 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I made multiple attempts to use an Interphase Vista, which sounds a lot like what you're describing, but was never able to make anything of what I saw on the display and ended ecup getting rid of it. Technically I suppose it worked, but I could not interpret the images. I know far better ones are available now, but if what you're looking at is an Interphase, I would suggest it might be worth while going for the next step up price-wise. > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners. >> I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins to work against you. >> This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing? >> Regards Alan. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 10:25:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 10:25:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Forward scanners In-Reply-To: References: <1472035264.761743.1412762108992.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100147.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, and I recall Carsten tried one as well and was also not able to use it. The only person I heard of who did succeed with the Interphase was Herve Jaubert. On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alec, > I had a look at the Interfase scout, & they make comment that ..... > " The unit is not designed to provide forward "bottom" image, but will > provide a bottom chart mode directly under the boat. Some limitations are > observed in very shallow ranges." > That's a bit of a warning that 2 of you haven't had much success. > Just had a a look at a guy experimenting with a fish finder for forward > sonar on a ROV. > He was really having trouble interpreting what was happening with the on > screen > representation of a bucket moving toward the transducer in his swimming > pool. > ( there are other nuts out there) > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9/10/2014, at 12:00 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I made multiple attempts to use an Interphase Vista, which sounds a lot > like what you're describing, but was never able to make anything of what I > saw on the display and ended ecup getting rid of it. Technically I suppose > it worked, but I could not interpret the images. I know far better ones are > available now, but if what you're looking at is an Interphase, I would > suggest it might be worth while going for the next step up price-wise. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone had any experience or know anything about forward scanners. >> I'm reading.....Without moving parts, the ForwardScan transducer is more >> akin to a conventional sounder that has been tipped on its side. Its >> effective range is about eight times the actual depth, up to about 160 feet >> ahead of the boat. It includes a built-in shallow depth alarm with >> parameters set by the user. In deep water, this is great for detecting >> rocks and pinnacles. Of course, if you are operating in shallow waters such >> as the Bahamas or portions of the Chesapeake the eight-to-one ratio begins >> to work against you. >> This seems to indicate that if you are cruising 5ft off the bottom or >> closer in a submarine, you won't get much warning for collision avoidance >> from the alarm settings These would just pick up on the bottom 5ft below >> rather than an obstruction coming off the bottom in the distance. Can these >> be mounted so the angle of the beam runs parralel to the sea bed, pointing >> more up than down? Or do I leave as is & forget about the alarm function. >> Am I just as well off buying a fish finder & mounting that forward facing? >> Regards Alan. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 11:10:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 08:10:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] project 765 Message-ID: <20141008081012.8BCF9555@m0005297.ppops.net> That's a hell of a project ! Big stuff Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] project 765 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:22:49 -0700 John, I just came across your pictures posted of project 765, all I can say is Holy #@#@^&*%$t That is Fantastic, you are making real progress. I will be watching for more pictures, do you do tours? I think the next convention should be at your shop! Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 16:46:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 20:46:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <19558314.5476567.1412800808175.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Fellow PSUBERS, ? I haven't posted really anything in the past and I don't have a project page with photos (I will work on getting my project on the site this week!) but have a question for everyone out there.? I am building a K boat.? I have the structure about 95% complete.? When I welded in my Electrical Thru-hull, they must have shrunk just a touch.? The penetrator won't slide through the fitting that I made.? The machinist that made most of my parts said that it would be better to hone them out than to take any material off the penetrator.? So I bought a honing tool and after several hours working on the first one, I have made zero progress!?Has anyone else encountered this in the past and does anyone have any ideas?? Am I making any sense? ? Thanks!! ? Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 17:10:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 14:10:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1412802604.46450.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Bob, Does the penetrator start going in until it reaches the welded area. I would guess the welded area has shrunk and not the entire length. You need to take some measurements, the fitting may be out of round from welding. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/8/14, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Wednesday, October 8, 2014, 4:46 PM Fellow PSUBERS, ? I haven't posted really anything in the past and I don't have a project page with photos (I will work on getting my project on the site this week!) but have a question for everyone out there.? I am building a K boat.? I have the structure about 95% complete.? When I welded in my Electrical Thru-hull, they must have shrunk just a touch.? The penetrator won't slide through the fitting that I made.? The machinist that made most of my parts said that it would be better to hone them out than to take any material off the penetrator.? So I bought a honing tool and after several hours working on the first one, I have made zero progress!?Has anyone else encountered this in the past and does anyone have any ideas?? Am I making any sense? ? Thanks!! ? Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 17:28:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 10:28:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> References: <19558314.5476567.1412800808175.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5435ac91.e47e460a.59f5.234d@mx.google.com> Hi Bob, You need a hand reamer but you also need a bit of experience to use them as they are easy to make marks in the bore. Does the penetrator need to have a seal on the bore? Forget honing unless you have some knowledge on this as well. Honing is for very small metal removal or for surface finish. Very easy to get an hourglass effect or barreling. What diameter and what length is the through hole? Have you measured the amount it has shrunk. What are you measuring with? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 9 October 2014 9:47 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull Fellow PSUBERS, I haven't posted really anything in the past and I don't have a project page with photos (I will work on getting my project on the site this week!) but have a question for everyone out there. I am building a K boat. I have the structure about 95% complete. When I welded in my Electrical Thru-hull, they must have shrunk just a touch. The penetrator won't slide through the fitting that I made. The machinist that made most of my parts said that it would be better to hone them out than to take any material off the penetrator. So I bought a honing tool and after several hours working on the first one, I have made zero progress! Has anyone else encountered this in the past and does anyone have any ideas? Am I making any sense? Thanks!! Bob __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10532 (20141008) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 17:35:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 17:35:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> References: <19558314.5476567.1412800808175.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: You are making total sense and I have had to do exactly the same thing several times. I'm not sure what your "honing tool" is. I use a set of adjustable reamers from Harbor Freight, and they do the job in short order despite being cheapo. See Harbor Freight item ##38577. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:46 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Fellow PSUBERS, > > I haven't posted really anything in the past and I don't have a project > page with photos (I will work on getting my project on the site this week!) > but have a question for everyone out there. I am building a K boat. I > have the structure about 95% complete. When I welded in my Electrical > Thru-hull, they must have shrunk just a touch. The penetrator won't slide > through the fitting that I made. The machinist that made most of my parts > said that it would be better to hone them out than to take any material off > the penetrator. So I bought a honing tool and after several hours working > on the first one, I have made zero progress! Has anyone else encountered > this in the past and does anyone have any ideas? Am I making any sense? > > Thanks!! > > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 21:47:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 18:47:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm Message-ID: <20141008184736.F1CAE279@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 8 23:33:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 20:33:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm In-Reply-To: <20141008184736.F1CAE279@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20141008184736.F1CAE279@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1412825634.81439.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Why Brian, have you had an accident recently? Alan ________________________________ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:47 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm Where do I get one of these arms ? http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/6/257.cover-expansion Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 05:50:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 10:50:45 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: References: <19558314.5476567.1412800808175.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob, I had exactly the same problems. As others have said, forget the honing tool. I used the appropriate sized hand reamer. (A normal one, not an adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use). I ran the reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in it and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the slot to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went through. Worked fine. Have a picture here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htm Hope this helps, Good luck James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 06:30:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 03:30:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1412850623.52287.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> James, Was it the same for the MBT thru-hull ? Pete -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 4:50 AM Hi Bob,I had exactly the same problems.? As others have said, forget the honing tool.??? I used the appropriate sized hand reamer.? (A normal one, not an adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use).??I ran the reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in it and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the slot to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went through.? Worked fine.?Have a picture here.? http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htmHope this helps, Good luckJames? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 07:02:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:02:32 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <1412850623.52287.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1412850623.52287.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Pete, Not sure which one you mean? Where the vent pipe attaches to the MBT? or Where the through hull for the vent valve welds into the conning tower? or something else? James On 9 October 2014 11:30, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, Was it the same for the MBT thru-hull ? > > Pete > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 4:50 AM > > Hi > Bob,I had exactly the same problems. As others > have said, forget the honing tool. I used the > appropriate sized hand reamer. (A normal one, not an > adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use). I ran the > reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in it > and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the slot > to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went > through. Worked fine. Have a > picture here. > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htmHope > this helps, Good luckJames > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 09:49:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 06:49:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm Message-ID: <20141009064933.8BCD3D4E@m0005299.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 12:09:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:09:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: References: <19558314.5476567.1412800808175.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> <375044696.5483303.1412801191310.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1557410272.6170267.1412870960404.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Thanks for all the input.? I am going to try it this weekend and will give you all an update!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "submersibles, personal" To: "submersibles, personal" Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:50:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull Hi Bob, I had exactly the same problems.? As others have said, forget the honing tool.??? I used the appropriate sized hand reamer.? (A normal one, not an adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use).??I ran the reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in it and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the slot to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went through.? Worked fine. ? Have a picture here.? http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htm Hope this helps, Good luck James ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 15:36:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:36:08 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm In-Reply-To: <20141009064933.8BCD3D4E@m0005299.ppops.net> References: <20141009064933.8BCD3D4E@m0005299.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I had a good look at that sort of thing when I was researching pneumatic muscles (fluidic muscles) They are a cheap option to a pneumatic cylinder & there are instructables on how to make them. http://m.machinedesign.com/archive/pumping-iron Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/10/2014, at 2:49 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > no, it just seems like if you could hook this to a bunch of nerves you could just as easily hook it to your fingers and put it out side of your sub, waterproof it of coarse. > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 20:33:54 -0700 > > Why Brian, > have you had an accident recently? > Alan > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: PSubs > Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:47 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm > > Where do I get one of these arms ? > > http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/6/257.cover-expansion > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 16:45:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 13:45:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Arm Message-ID: <20141009134548.8BD059F0@m0005312.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 9 17:06:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 14:06:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1412888808.36195.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Where the through hull for the vent valve welds into the conning tower Pete -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 6:02 AM Hi Pete,?Not sure which one you mean?? Where the vent pipe attaches to the MBT? orWhere the through hull for the vent valve welds into the conning tower?orsomething else? James On 9 October 2014 11:30, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, Was it the same for the MBT thru-hull ? Pete -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 4:50 AM ?Hi ?Bob,I had exactly the same problems.? As others ?have said, forget the honing tool.??? I used the ?appropriate sized hand reamer.? (A normal one, not an ?adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use).??I ran the ?reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in it ?and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the slot ?to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went ?through.? Worked fine.?Have a ?picture here.? http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htmHope ?this helps, Good luckJames? ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 13 05:08:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 10:08:40 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull In-Reply-To: <1412888808.36195.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1412888808.36195.YahooMailBasic@web161403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Pete, Sorry for the delay, ive been away. The through hull for the vent valve I just reamed out once it was in. It didn't need any polishing to make the bar fit. Probably because the hole is smaller than the others and so there wasn't as much distortion. So those two were a lot easier. Regards James On 9 October 2014 22:06, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Where the through hull for the vent valve welds into the conning tower > > Pete > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 6:02 AM > > Hi > Pete, Not sure which one you mean? > Where the vent pipe attaches to the MBT? > orWhere the through hull for the > vent valve welds into the conning > tower?orsomething else? > James > On 9 October 2014 11:30, > Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > James, > Was it the same for the MBT thru-hull ? > > > > Pete > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, 10/9/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical thru-hull > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2014, 4:50 AM > > > > Hi > > Bob,I had exactly the same problems. As others > > have said, forget the > honing tool. I used the > > appropriate sized hand reamer. (A normal one, not an > > adjustable which are a bit of a pain to use). I ran > the > > reamer through and then I used a bar with a slot cut in > it > > and a piece of very fine emery paper (wet) through the > slot > > to take off the smallest amounts until the fitting went > > through. Worked fine. Have a > > picture here. > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page23356.htmHope > > this helps, Good luckJames > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 12:32:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 12:32:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <1173147157.493443.1412642297459.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10052.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> <1173147157.493443.1412642297459.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10052.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Have a look here: http://www.ezautomation.net/index.htm Steve On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks again Cliff, > I was impressed with their web site & support videos. > They make it all seem easy. There is a C-more 4" colour monitor > with IP65 rating that is looking good. > Have just filed those fine details on your O2 system, that may save > me a bit of time experimenting. > Cheers > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:09 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs > > I have had great sucess with AutomationDirect PLC and HMIs. There kit is > inexpensive and tech support is outstanding. > > I used this kit on the R300 and am planning on using for my next boat. > > > Cliff Redus > > > > On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi > I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. > I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system > displays about 60.) > Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as > per James > Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. > I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been > looking at the > 4" C-more touch screen. > > http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL > It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain > functions that I want displayed > continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as > it is easy to > configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit > basic. > They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy > to create my own > where necessary. > Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right > direction? > Regards Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 16:30:51 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:30:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: References: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> <1173147157.493443.1412642297459.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10052.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413491451.29741.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve, there are a lot of interesting items there. Glad I got your post, I hadn't received anything for a while & a post I sent days ago came back as a failure notice (mailer demon) Alan ________________________________ From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs Have a look here: http://www.ezautomation.net/index.htm Steve On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks again Cliff, >I was impressed with their web site & support videos. >They make it all seem easy. There is a C-more 4" colour monitor >with IP65 rating that is looking good. >Have just filed those fine details on your O2 system, that may save >me a bit of time experimenting. >Cheers >Alan > > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs > > > >I have had great sucess with AutomationDirect PLC and HMIs. There kit is inexpensive and tech support is outstanding. > > >I used this kit on the R300 and am planning on using for my next boat. > > > >Cliff Redus > > > > >On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Hi >>I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. >>I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system displays about 60.) >>Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as per James >>Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. >>I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been looking at the >>4" C-more touch screen. >>http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL >> >>It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain functions that I want displayed >>continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as it is easy to >>configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit basic. >>They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy to create my own >>where necessary. >>Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right direction? >>Regards Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 16:45:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:45:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Message-ID: <20141016134518.11EF9B1E@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 18:02:07 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 16:02:07 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling In-Reply-To: <20141016134518.11EF9B1E@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20141016134518.11EF9B1E@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <3a0931d1-fabe-4279-a38d-2af28be510e9@email.android.com> Brian, cast acrylic will exhibit some natural shrinkage as you approach thermoforming temperatures - it could be that you are seeing the beginning of this at your annealing temperature. Is the discrepancy in thickness only, or are your diameters off as well? Barring any obvious visual abberation, I'd be inclined to use the windows as per the minimum measured thickness. If there is visual distortion, you might want to flatten it and then run it through annealing again. Once the shrinkage has occurred, you shouldn't see it again. Sean On October 16, 2014 2:45:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All, > >Been annealing my disks, I've been just standing them on end in the >oven. I'm seeing a tiny variation of the thickness of the acrylic, at >first I thought it was because of standing them on end , but I think >there is actually some variation in the thickness of the original >material. The most I've seen is .020 . I guess it's nothing to be >concerned about. Anyone have any info on this? > > > >Brian > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 19:26:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 16:26:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Message-ID: <20141016162656.11EFDD65@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 20:02:39 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:02:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling In-Reply-To: <20141016162656.11EFDD65@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1413504159.36913.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, Is the port irregular in thickness after annealing. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/16/14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 16, 2014, 7:26 PM Hi Sean,????????????????? The disk diameters?shrink by .120 "? ( for a 6" dia disk) - 2%? and the thickness increases slightly, that is in agreement with info from Stachiw ( Handbook of Acrylics)? .? But I noticed some slight variation of the material?before the annealing process.? There is no distortion?or anything like that .??I guess the slight variation of 20 thousandths will be inconsequential once the gaskets and squeezed on with the retaining ring.?Brian??? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 16:02:07 -0600 Brian, cast acrylic will exhibit some natural shrinkage as you approach thermoforming temperatures - it could be that you are seeing the beginning of this at your annealing temperature. Is the discrepancy in thickness only, or are your diameters off as well? Barring any obvious visual abberation, I'd be inclined to use the windows as per the minimum measured thickness. If there is visual distortion, you might want to flatten it and then run it through annealing again. Once the shrinkage has occurred, you shouldn't see it again. Sean On October 16, 2014 2:45:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????Been annealing my disks, I've been just standing them on end in the oven.? I'm seeing a tiny variation of the thickness of the acrylic, at first I thought it was because of standing them on end ,? but I think there is actually some variation in the thickness of the original material.? The most I've seen is .020?? .? I guess it's nothing to be concerned about.? Anyone have any info on this??Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 16 23:01:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:01:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Message-ID: <20141016200131.11EFF6EB@m0005296.ppops.net> I think it is just the variation of the original material , probably within the normal specs. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:02:39 -0700 Brian, Is the port irregular in thickness after annealing. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/16/14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 16, 2014, 7:26 PM Hi Sean,????????????????? The disk diameters?shrink by .120 "? ( for a 6" dia disk) - 2%? and the thickness increases slightly, that is in agreement with info from Stachiw ( Handbook of Acrylics)? .? But I noticed some slight variation of the material?before the annealing process.? There is no distortion?or anything like that .??I guess the slight variation of 20 thousandths will be inconsequential once the gaskets and squeezed on with the retaining ring.?Brian??? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] annealling Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 16:02:07 -0600 Brian, cast acrylic will exhibit some natural shrinkage as you approach thermoforming temperatures - it could be that you are seeing the beginning of this at your annealing temperature. Is the discrepancy in thickness only, or are your diameters off as well? Barring any obvious visual abberation, I'd be inclined to use the windows as per the minimum measured thickness. If there is visual distortion, you might want to flatten it and then run it through annealing again. Once the shrinkage has occurred, you shouldn't see it again. Sean On October 16, 2014 2:45:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????Been annealing my disks, I've been just standing them on end in the oven.? I'm seeing a tiny variation of the thickness of the acrylic, at first I thought it was because of standing them on end ,? but I think there is actually some variation in the thickness of the original material.? The most I've seen is .020?? .? I guess it's nothing to be concerned about.? Anyone have any info on this??Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 03:14:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:14:55 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub Message-ID: What happened to your sub Emile? Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 09:27:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:27:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs In-Reply-To: <1413491451.29741.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2EA9C705-8EC3-4D04-8142-F2906C400D9D@sbcglobal.net> <1173147157.493443.1412642297459.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10052.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1413491451.29741.YahooMailNeo@web120903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, no problem. This supplier isn't too pricey for what you get. They also have good tech. support. Steve On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > there are a lot of interesting items there. > Glad I got your post, I hadn't received anything for a while & a post I > sent days ago > came back as a failure notice (mailer demon) > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, October 17, 2014 5:32 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs > > Have a look here: > > http://www.ezautomation.net/index.htm > > Steve > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks again Cliff, > I was impressed with their web site & support videos. > They make it all seem easy. There is a C-more 4" colour monitor > with IP65 rating that is looking good. > Have just filed those fine details on your O2 system, that may save > me a bit of time experimenting. > Cheers > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:09 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Touch Screens & PLCs > > I have had great sucess with AutomationDirect PLC and HMIs. There kit is > inexpensive and tech support is outstanding. > > I used this kit on the R300 and am planning on using for my next boat. > > > Cliff Redus > > > > On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi > I'm looking at my touch screen & PLC options & I'm a bit clueless here. > I want to display about 50 inputs. (I note that Cliff's R300 system > displays about 60.) > Also I'm looking at using a life support system similar to a rebreather as > per James > Cameron, & this will need to have outputs from the PLC & a screen display. > I am wanting to go reasonably small with the screen size & have been > looking at the > 4" C-more touch screen. > > http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/4_inch_Panels_-a-_Accessories/EA1-T4CL > It may be an option to use 2 of these screens as there are certain > functions that I want displayed > continuously. There seem to be a lot of pluses with the C-more system as > it is easy to > configure the screen & alarm set points, however the graphics look a bit > basic. > They do state that it supports user generated graphics so it may be easy > to create my own > where necessary. > Are there any other good options out there? Or am I heading in the right > direction? > Regards Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 16:36:39 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:36:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball Message-ID: <1413578199.21545.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> help! I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before the proper one arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck and while drilling the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture to hold the q ball steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and that worked perfect. The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. Any ideas would be appreciated. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 16:47:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:47:04 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: <1413578199.21545.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, It seems you did it right but the material is too brittle. Soft plastics wont work for a Q ball.. A sharp or new drill would help. Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 22:37 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball help! I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before the proper one arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck and while drilling the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture to hold the q ball steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and that worked perfect. The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. Any ideas would be appreciated. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 17:13:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:13:50 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Alan, There was a road accident ,caused by a exploding tire, with the sub. A lot of damage but no one was hurt. The bumpers did their work also on the road and protected the domes. Despite severe distortion of the port MBT, there were no leaks. In a collision , metal MBT's win. If UW the sub could have safely surfaced. The "Drebbel" will be operational again in a few months. Picture: Shortly before the crash I had a promotion job with the sub for Heineken. Their new home beertap is called "the Sub" and can fit in a larger Psub.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRnZ9u_p7g Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 9:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub What happened to your sub Emile? Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sub Heineken.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 88507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 17:35:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:35:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1413581730.50608.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Well done with the Heineken add Emile. We drink a lot of Heineken in N.Z.. Sorry about the accident. At least the view ports were intact. Good lesson for Psubbers, that there is a lot of weight on those trailer tires. My brother had the same happen towing a new boat. Blow out round a corner, car spun out & the boat was thrown off the trailer in to a farm padock:) Alan ________________________________ From: Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub Hi Alan, There was a road accident ,caused by a exploding tire, with the sub. A lot of damage but no one was hurt. The bumpers did their work also on the road and protected the domes. Despite severe distortion of the port MBT, there were no leaks. In a collision , metal MBT's win. If UW the sub could have safely surfaced. The "Drebbel" will be operational again in a few months. Picture: Shortly before the crash I had a promotion job with the sub for Heineken. Their new home beertap is called "the Sub" and can fit in a larger Psub.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRnZ9u_p7g Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 9:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub What happened to your sub Emile? Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 17:44:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 17:44:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: <1413578199.21545.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1413578199.21545.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D1B86ABB213FFC-119C-2CAC2@webmail-va033.sysops.aol.com> Hank, I've sent along some questions to the horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, but I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball help! I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before the proper one arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck and while drilling the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture to hold the q ball steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and that worked perfect. The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. Any ideas would be appreciated. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 18:00:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:00:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: <8D1B86ABB213FFC-119C-2CAC2@webmail-va033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1413583214.28420.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks guys Emile, I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was built. Vance, That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws causing the drill to bind. I can make a fixture to hold the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the lathe. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM Hank, I've sent along some questions to the horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, but I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball help! I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before the proper one arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck and while drilling the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture to hold the q ball steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and that worked perfect. The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. Any ideas would be appreciated. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 18:02:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:02:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1413583365.56105.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Emile, Sorry to hear about you accident. That hurts! Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:13 PM Hi Alan, There was a road accident ,caused by a exploding tire, with the sub. A lot of damage but no one was hurt. The bumpers did their work also on the road and protected the domes. Despite severe distortion of the port MBT, there were no leaks. In a collision , metal MBT's win. If UW the sub could have safely surfaced. The "Drebbel" will be operational again in a few months. Picture: Shortly before the crash I had a promotion job with the sub for Heineken. Their new home beertap is called "the Sub" and can fit in a larger Psub.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRnZ9u_p7g Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 9:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nordic sub What happened to your sub Emile? Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 18:15:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:15:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: <1413583214.28420.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D1B86ABB213FFC-119C-2CAC2@webmail-va033.sysops.aol.com> <1413583214.28420.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 thread. JimR On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks guys > Emile, > I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was built. > Vance, > That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws causing the > drill to bind. I can make a fixture to hold the ball tight without > damaging it, while it is in the lathe. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM > > Hank, > I've sent along some questions to the > horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, but > I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. > > Vance > > > > > > > -----Original > Message----- > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: personal_submersibles > > > Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball > > > > > > > > > > help! > I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before > the proper one > arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck > and while drilling > the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture to > hold the q ball > steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and > that worked perfect. > The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. Any > ideas would be > appreciated. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 17 18:33:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:33:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1413585202.52770.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Brilliant, I will do exactly what you said. Thank you Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 6:15 PM I use billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 thread.JimR On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks guys Emile, I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was built. Vance, That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws causing the drill to bind.? I can make a fixture to hold the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the lathe. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ?To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ?Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM ?Hank, ?I've sent along some questions to the ?horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, but ?I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. ?Vance ?-----Original ?Message----- ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: personal_submersibles ? ?Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm ?Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ?help! ?I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before ?the proper one ?arrives.? I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck ?and while drilling ?the hole through it cracked.? Do I need to make a fixture to ?hold the q ball ?steady maybe?? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and ?that worked perfect. ?The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice.? Any ?ideas would be ?appreciated. ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 18 14:25:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 11:25:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1413656712.15305.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Jim R I just machined another q ball and it worked perfect with your tricks. thanks' Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 6:15 PM I use billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 thread.JimR On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks guys Emile, I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was built. Vance, That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws causing the drill to bind.? I can make a fixture to hold the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the lathe. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ?To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ?Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM ?Hank, ?I've sent along some questions to the ?horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, but ?I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. ?Vance ?-----Original ?Message----- ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: personal_submersibles ? ?Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm ?Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ?help! ?I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment before ?the proper one ?arrives.? I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw chuck ?and while drilling ?the hole through it cracked.? Do I need to make a fixture to ?hold the q ball ?steady maybe?? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter and ?that worked perfect. ?The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice.? Any ?ideas would be ?appreciated. ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 18 16:35:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:35:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: <1413656712.15305.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1413656712.15305.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're welcome, glad it worked out ok... JimR On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Jim R > I just machined another q ball and it worked perfect with your tricks. > thanks' > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 10/17/14, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 6:15 PM > > I use > billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC > water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside > for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant > and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand > diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a > scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For > handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 > thread.JimR > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at > 3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Thanks > guys > > Emile, > > I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was > built. > > Vance, > > That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws > causing the drill to bind. I can make a fixture to hold > the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the > lathe. > > Hank > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM > > > > Hank, > > I've sent along some questions to the > > horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, > but > > I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. > > > > Vance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original > > Message----- > > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > To: personal_submersibles > > > > > > Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > help! > > I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment > before > > the proper one > > arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw > chuck > > and while drilling > > the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture > to > > hold the q ball > > steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter > and > > that worked perfect. > > The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. > Any > > ideas would be > > appreciated. > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 19 20:03:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 0:03:28 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Message-ID: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> Hello Psubs group, I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. Many thanks for your advise. Mark... From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 19 20:13:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 17:13:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Message-ID: <20141019171358.11E858F9@m0005296.ppops.net> Parker O rings would have one, it would depend on the width of the O ring. Get their catalogue and it will tell you the size groove you need for any particular O ring. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 0:03:28 +0000 Hello Psubs group, I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. Many thanks for your advise. Mark... _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 19 20:51:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 17:51:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> Message-ID: <1413766280.58927.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Mark, The K350 has a dovetail groove, I assume you are farming out the machining. I would say it will be cheaper to do a square groove. I assume the K subs have the dovetail groove to secure the o-ring better while the hatch is opening, maybe? My sub, Gamma, has a square groove and the o-ring stays put just fine. You can do a quick google search for o-ring groove design, it is very simple. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/19/14, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Sunday, October 19, 2014, 8:03 PM Hello Psubs group, I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring.? I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot.? I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. Many thanks for your advise. Mark... _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 19 21:19:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 21:19:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <20141019171358.11E858F9@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20141019171358.11E858F9@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <00FBD2E8-FB8E-4AFF-A7CD-B5CEC71CD372@gmail.com> Actually for sizes as large as a coming tower common practice is to make your own o-rings from stock that you can purchase by the foot. You just cut it with a razor and join with superglue. Best, Alec > On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Parker O rings would have one, it would depend on the width of the O ring. Get their catalogue and it will tell you the size groove you need for any particular O ring. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 0:03:28 +0000 > > Hello Psubs group, > > I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. > > Many thanks for your advise. > > Mark... > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 19 23:38:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 20:38:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> References: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> Message-ID: <1413776329.92030.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Mark, I have heard of people with the square grove having trouble with the O-ring falling out, & having to stick them in with copious amounts of grease. That could be a sizing issue though. I think it's a 1/2 dove tail grove they have on the K boats with the angled edge to the outside so that the O-ring is squashed by external pressure against the flat side of the grove. (someone correct me if I'm wrong) I vaguely remember Phil saying the Deep Workers have the 1/2 dove tail grove. Alan ________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:03 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Hello Psubs group, I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. Many thanks for your advise. Mark... _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 03:41:20 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:41:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <1413776329.92030.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> <1413776329.92030.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413790880.7809.YahooMailNeo@web181204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On the R300, I use a standard sized O-ring with specified dash number with o-ring grove designed based on PArker free software to match the o-ring. I installed this on the lower hatch face. While this o-ring has provided a watertight seal, I find that sometimes the o-ring can become dislodged. Based on lessons learned, going forward, my new boat is designed with a 1/2 dove tail grove on the upper hatch exactly as Alan has described, i.e., external pressure force ring into flat side. Going to the 1/2 dove tail grove should keep the o-ring from popping out of the grove while not impacting its ability to seal . Putting in the o-ring in the upper hatch face will keep garbage out of the grove. While you can make up o-ring to any size by cutting and gluing, I know of one case in another boat in which this caused a small leak because they got the length wrong and were not precise enough on aligning the ends when adhesive. To me it is better to use the Parker software which is on online, and pick a standard dash number and design the grove to match this o-ring. O-rings are cheap and this tends to remove the two issues that caused this leak, Cliff ________________________________ From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Hi Mark, I have heard of people with the square grove having trouble with the O-ring falling out, & having to stick them in with copious amounts of grease. That could be a sizing issue though. I think it's a 1/2 dove tail grove they have on the K boats with the angled edge to the outside so that the O-ring is squashed by external pressure against the flat side of the grove. (someone correct me if I'm wrong) I vaguely remember Phil saying the Deep Workers have the 1/2 dove tail grove. Alan ________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:03 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring Hello Psubs group, I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. Many thanks for your advise. Mark... _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 07:20:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:20:43 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> References: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Just one thing to add along with the other posts. Think about the paint thickness. This can really mess up the size of the groove. When I fitted my hatch O ring I messed about with various different thicknesses of cord to try and compensate for the paint. In the end, I had the hatch seat re-blasted and painted it again with a much thinner coat. I still had to use a custom O ring. In fact, I had lots of O ring issues with all my seals until I could get the right ones for the job. I used this place in the UK for all the seals and they made me loads of custom rings and cords. For example, the normal through hulls should have a 16 x 2.5 O ring. Couldn't get the bar through. 16 x 2 felt like it wouldn't seal. 16 x 2.35 went through fine and seals. No leaks at all. http://www.polymax.co.uk/ Regards James On 20 October 2014 01:03, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello Psubs group, > > I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" > conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch ring > and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've heard some > folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. > > Many thanks for your advise. > > Mark... > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 09:45:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:45:32 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: References: <1413656712.15305.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Im very interested to see how your manipulator works out. Im sure others will be too. Can you take some pics as you go along, so we can see how its coming along. Kind Regards James On 18 October 2014 21:35, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > You're welcome, glad it worked out ok... > JimR > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> Hi Jim R >> I just machined another q ball and it worked perfect with your tricks. >> thanks' >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Fri, 10/17/14, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 6:15 PM >> >> I use >> billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC >> water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside >> for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant >> and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand >> diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a >> scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For >> handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 >> thread.JimR >> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at >> 3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> Thanks >> guys >> >> Emile, >> >> I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was >> built. >> >> Vance, >> >> That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws >> causing the drill to bind. I can make a fixture to hold >> the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the >> lathe. >> >> Hank >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball >> >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM >> >> >> >> Hank, >> >> I've sent along some questions to the >> >> horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, >> but >> >> I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. >> >> >> >> Vance >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original >> >> Message----- >> >> >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> To: personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm >> >> >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> help! >> >> I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment >> before >> >> the proper one >> >> arrives. I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw >> chuck >> >> and while drilling >> >> the hole through it cracked. Do I need to make a fixture >> to >> >> hold the q ball >> >> steady maybe? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter >> and >> >> that worked perfect. >> >> The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice. >> Any >> >> ideas would be >> >> appreciated. >> >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 09:53:01 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 07:53:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring In-Reply-To: <1413776329.92030.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20141020000329.5WTIV.56450.root@dnvrco-web23> <1413776329.92030.YahooMailNeo@web120905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ae17712-6ffa-4716-ae30-3cf29811313c@email.android.com> With regard to O-ring sizing, be aware that an O-ring / groove pair is typically designed for a specific limited amount of compression in service, such that the O-ring meets its design fatigue life and tolerance to compression set. Using an O-ring which is larger in cross-section so that it doesn't fall out of an ordinary rectangular groove may, in service, deform the O-ring beyond its elastic deformation limit. So-called "crush" installations are perfectly valid, and are used often in static seals, but any increased compression set as a result of such a design must be accommodated by more stringent maintenance and O-ring changes. The Parker O-ring Handbook is an excellent design resource, and includes information about typical O-ring failure modes. Sean On October 19, 2014 9:38:49 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Mark, >I have heard of people with the square grove having trouble with the >O-ring falling out, & having >to stick them in with copious amounts of grease. That could be a sizing >issue though. >I think it's a 1/2 dove tail grove they have on the K boats with the >angled edge to the outside so that >the O-ring is squashed by external pressure against the flat side of >the grove. >(someone correct me if I'm wrong) >I vaguely remember Phil saying the Deep Workers have the 1/2 dove tail >grove. >Alan > > > > > >________________________________ > From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:03 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conning tower hatch O-Ring > > >Hello Psubs group, > >I would like to ask the group where I can purchase an O-Ring for a 24" >conning tower hatch ring. I also need to mill the slot in the hatch >ring and would like to know the width and depth of the slot. I've >heard some folks recommend a dove tail slot for the O-ring. > >Many thanks for your advise. > >Mark... >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 09:59:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:59:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Message-ID: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. The price is negotiable. I can be reached at _recon1st at aol.com_ (mailto:recon1st at aol.com) or 218-848-2673 Dean Ackman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 10:17:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:17:56 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale In-Reply-To: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> References: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <780a1692-1b8f-4818-8a3e-185065756123@email.android.com> I presume you mean X-Rayed, unless you have a custom interior that you haven't previously mentioned? Sean On October 20, 2014 7:59:31 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub >http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ > >It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. > >It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. > >The price is negotiable. > >I can be reached at _recon1st at aol.com_ (mailto:recon1st at aol.com) or >218-848-2673 > >Dean Ackman > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 10:20:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:20:47 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden Message-ID: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 10:31:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:31:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Message-ID: <72db7.5487c53b.417676dc@aol.com> Hey Sean that really was a test to see if you were paying attention. I wonder where my mind was this morning? Of course the finality of giving up my sweetie is tough. Dean In a message dated 10/20/2014 9:18:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: I presume you mean X-Rayed, unless you have a custom interior that you haven't previously mentioned? Sean On October 20, 2014 7:59:31 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. The price is negotiable. I can be reached at _recon1st at aol.com_ (mailto:recon1st at aol.com) or 218-848-2673 Dean Ackman ____________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 10:33:02 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 07:33:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale In-Reply-To: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> References: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <1413815582.42284.YahooMailNeo@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dean, we wish you the best. Please keep us informed with your progress. On Monday, October 20, 2014 10:01 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. The price is negotiable. I can be reached at recon1st at aol.com or 218-848-2673 Dean Ackman _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 10:37:15 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:37:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Message-ID: <7313e.4a301691.4176781b@aol.com> I will. My health issues are not of a real serious nature. The biggest issues, of all thing is tennis elbow. Both arms and looks like no fix. I blew both out about three years ago. The type of work required to finish the Sub just is not going to happen. Dean In a message dated 10/20/2014 9:33:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Dean, we wish you the best. Please keep us informed with your progress. On Monday, October 20, 2014 10:01 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. The price is negotiable. I can be reached at _recon1st at aol.com_ (mailto:recon1st at aol.com) or 218-848-2673 Dean Ackman _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 11:19:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:19:32 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale In-Reply-To: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> References: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <4A4DFDBD-7E40-4527-84A6-EA3572478113@snyderemail.com> Hi Dean! Greg Snyder here. I recently moved up to Duluth to take a job at Essentia hospital. As you recall we met in Vancouver the first time Phil opened his doors to us. I have been meaning to contact you to say hello and I am sorry to hear about your health problems. I would love to get together to see what you have done! Not sure if I am the buyer you are looking for but I can promise to buy you a beer! You can reach me at 612-702-2033 or by email at greg at snyderemail.com. Looking forward to hearing from you! Best regards, Greg > On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:59 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ > > It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. > > It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. > > The price is negotiable. > > I can be reached at recon1st at aol.com or 218-848-2673 > > Dean Ackman > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 11:48:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:48:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale In-Reply-To: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> References: <75deb.454af404.41766f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <1209973835.14013195.1413820139644.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Dean was just thru Duluth yesterday from up at the cabin.? Let me know if there is any thing I can help with as I am up there often.? Just not sure if I need two subs yet. Kyle E ----- Original Message ----- From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:59:31 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ ? It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. ? It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it.? ? The price is negotiable. ? I can be reached at recon1st at aol.com or 218-848-2673 ? Dean Ackman _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 14:37:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:37:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> References: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> Message-ID: <1413830275.19160.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Lasse, great media coverage you are getting there. I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect. >From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & it was being confused with your submarine. Is that correct? Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 15:20:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 21:20:32 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413830275.19160.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> <1413830275.19160.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95CC4A31-85FA-437D-B299-20C13A8A7E69@upplevelsepresent.se> That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse Schmidt Upplevelseakuten AB Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm Telefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10 Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" >: Thanks Lasse, great media coverage you are getting there. I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect. From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & it was being confused with your submarine. Is that correct? Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 15:45:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 20 Oct 2014 19:45 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <95CC4A31-85FA-437D-B299-20C13A8A7E69@upplevelsepresent.se> References: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> <1413830275.19160.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <95CC4A31-85FA-437D-B299-20C13A8A7E69@upplevelsepresent.se> Message-ID: <1XgItL-1uNpR20@fwd39.t-online.de> Was the other one blue with yellow stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ;-) "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse Schmidt Upplevelseakuten AB Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm Telefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10 Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : Thanks Lasse, great media coverage you are getting there. I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect. >From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & it was being confused with your submarine. Is that correct? Cheers Alan From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 16:36:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:36:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Message-ID: <9861c.3c885bfd.4176cc36@aol.com> Hi Kyle now ya know one does not fit all. What if you need to go a little deeper or a little faster. In a message dated 10/20/2014 10:49:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Dean was just thru Duluth yesterday from up at the cabin. Let me know if there is any thing I can help with as I am up there often. Just not sure if I need two subs yet. Kyle E ____________________________________ From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:59:31 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub for sale Due to some ongoing health issues I am selling my Sub http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567808/recon1/ It is a K-350 pressure hull, professionally welded and X-rated. It needs a good home as it does not look like I can finish it. The price is negotiable. I can be reached at _recon1st at aol.com_ (mailto:recon1st at aol.com) or 218-848-2673 Dean Ackman _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 16:57:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:57:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1413838634.13824.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi James, I will be happy to post pics of the q ball arm. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 9:45 AM Hi Hank, Im very interested to see how your manipulator works out.? Im sure others will be too.? Can you take some pics as you go along, so we can see how its coming along.?Kind Regards James?? On 18 October 2014 21:35, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You're welcome, glad it worked out ok...JimR On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim R I just machined another q ball and it worked perfect with your tricks. thanks' Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/17/14, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 6:15 PM ?I use ?billard balls for handles on my lathe fixtures. Try a PVC ?water pipe cap mounted in the 3-jaw and machine the inside ?for a snug fit. Then tighten a little more. Also add coolant ?and dress down the drill's cutting edges with a hand ?diamond hone to a very narrow flat. This gives more of a ?scraping action, works for brass and bronze, too. For ?handles, its a blind hole for a 1/2-13 ?thread.JimR ?On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at ?3:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?Thanks ?guys ?Emile, ?I think the hard resin q ball is what Gamma had when it was ?built. ?Vance, ?That is great, I am thinking the q ball twisted in the jaws ?causing the drill to bind.? I can make a fixture to hold ?the ball tight without damaging it, while it is in the ?lathe. ?Hank ?-------------------------------------------- ?On Fri, 10/17/14, via Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ??Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ??To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ??Received: Friday, October 17, 2014, 5:44 PM ??Hank, ??I've sent along some questions to the ??horse's mouth. Haven't heard from him in months, ?but ??I'm hoping he will get back to us shortly. ??Vance ??-----Original ??Message----- ??From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?? ??To: personal_submersibles ?? ??Sent: Fri, Oct 17, 2014 4:37 pm ??Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining q ball ??help! ??I tried to machine a q ball today as an experiment ?before ??the proper one ??arrives.? I put tape around it and put it in a 3 jaw ?chuck ??and while drilling ??the hole through it cracked.? Do I need to make a fixture ?to ??hold the q ball ??steady maybe?? I made a home made o-ring groove cutter ?and ??that worked perfect. ??The q ball is very brittle, but machines very nice.? ?Any ??ideas would be ??appreciated. ??Hank ??_______________________________________________ ??Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ??_______________________________________________ ??Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 17:01:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:01:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1XgItL-1uNpR20@fwd39.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1413838866.16503.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM E-Mail Software 6.0Was the other one blue with yellow stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ;-)? "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ABSkeppsbron 21, Tullhus 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : Thanks Lasse,great media coverage you are getting there.I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect.From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & itwas being confused with your submarine. Is that correct?Cheers Alan From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 17:41:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:41:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413838866.16503.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? Pete --------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM My favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM E-Mail Software 6.0Was the other one blue with yellow stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ;-)? "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ABSkeppsbron 21, Tullhus 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : Thanks Lasse,great media coverage you are getting there.I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect.From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & itwas being confused with your submarine. Is that correct?Cheers Alan ? ? ? ? From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden ??? As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 18:11:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:11:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413843114.83714.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Pete, I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I am one and I think Emile is also :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 PM I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? Pete --------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM My favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM ? ? E-Mail Software ? 6.0Was ? the other one blue with yellow ? stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ? ;-)? ? ? ? ? "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" ? schrieb: ? ? That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, ? ? Lasse ? SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ABSkeppsbron 21, ? Tullhus 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 16 ? 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 ? 20 okt 2014 ? kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : ? ? Thanks Lasse,great ? media coverage you are getting there.I ? ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect.From what I can understand there was a military type ? submarine sighted & itwas being confused with your submarine. Is that correct?Cheers ? Alan ? ? ? ? ? From: Lasse ? Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles ? ? To: Personal ? Submersibles ? General Discussion ? ? Sent: Tuesday, ? October 21, 2014 3:20 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt ? in Sweden ??? ? ? As a few of you might have noticed, ? that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. ? Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because ? of this, ? mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain ? day. ? ? http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd ? ? http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab ? ? http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx ? ? ? Lasse Schmidt ? Upplevelsepresent.se ? Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm ? 070-28 32 660 ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles ? mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 19:35:35 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:35:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413843114.83714.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413848135.28386.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, I hope MUST doesn't come kicking down your door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Military_Intelligence_and_Security_Service Pete -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:11 PM Pete, I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I am one and I think Emile is also :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 PM I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? Pete --------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM ? ? ? My ? favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- ? On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via ? Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: ? ? Subject: Re: ? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden ? ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM ? ? E-Mail Software ? 6.0Was ? the other one blue ? with yellow ? stripes and makes sound like a ? old fishing trawler? ? ;-)? ? ? ? ? ? ? "Lasse Schmidt via ? Personal_Submersibles" ? ? schrieb: ? ? That is correct ? Allan, it's very exciting, ? ? Lasse ? SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ? ABSkeppsbron 21, ? Tullhus ? 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 ? ? 16 ? 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 ? 20 okt 2014 ? kl. 20:43 skrev ? "Alan James via ? ? Personal_Submersibles" : ? ? Thanks ? Lasse,great ? media coverage you are getting ? there.I ? ran Google ? ? translate, but it wasn't perfect.From ? ? what I can understand there was a military type ? submarine sighted & itwas ? ? being confused with your submarine. Is that ? ? correct?Cheers ? Alan ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Lasse ? Schmidt ? via Personal_Submersibles ? ? To: Personal ? Submersibles ? General ? Discussion ? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, ? October 21, 2014 3:20 AM ? ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt ? in ? Sweden ? ??? ? ? As a few of you might have noticed, ? that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. ? Our submarine ? and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media ? because ? of this, ? mostly ? denying that it was us that were visible a certain ? day. ? ? http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd ? ? http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab ? ? http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx ? ? ? Lasse ? Schmidt ? Upplevelsepresent.se ? Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 ? ? 11130 Stockholm ? 070-28 32 ? ? 660 ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles ? mailing ? list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 20:14:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:14:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413848135.28386.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413850474.40071.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Pete, Yikes! It is pretty funny though, mind you what do you expect with a flat back diesel sub, come on paint it a friendly colour. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 7:35 PM Hank, I hope MUST doesn't come kicking down your door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Military_Intelligence_and_Security_Service Pete -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:11 PM Pete, I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I am one and I think Emile is also :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 PM ? ? ? I read ? the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say ? "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a ? Dutchman with submarine ? ? ? Pete ? --------------------------------------- ? On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: ? ? Subject: Re: ? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden ? ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM ? ? ? My ? favorite sound is an old fishing trawler ? Hank-------------------------------------------- ? On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " ? via ? Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: ? ? ? Subject: Re: ? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt ? in Sweden ? ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 ? PM ? ? ? ? E-Mail Software ? ? 6.0Was ? the other one ? blue ? with yellow ? ? ? stripes and makes sound like a ? old fishing ? trawler? ? ? ;-)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "Lasse Schmidt ? via ? ? Personal_Submersibles" ? ? ? schrieb: ? ? ? ? That is correct ? Allan, ? it's very exciting, ? ? ? ? Lasse ? ? SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ? ABSkeppsbron 21, ? ? Tullhus ? ? ? 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 ? ? 16 ? ? 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 ? 32 660 ? ? 20 okt 2014 ? ? kl. ? 20:43 skrev ? "Alan James via ? ? Personal_Submersibles" ? : ? ? ? ? Thanks ? ? ? Lasse,great ? ? media coverage you are getting ? there.I ? ? ran Google ? ? translate, but it wasn't perfect.From ? ? what I can understand there ? was a military type ? submarine sighted ? & itwas ? ? being confused with your submarine. Is that ? ? correct?Cheers ? ? Alan ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Lasse ? ? Schmidt ? via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Personal ? ? Submersibles ? ? General ? Discussion ? ? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, ? ? October 21, 2014 3:20 AM ? ? ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine ? hunt ? ? in ? Sweden ? ??? ? ? ? ? As a few of you might have noticed, ? ? that ? we have some submarine issues in Sweden ? ? right now. ? ? Our submarine ? ? ? and myself got quite a lot of attention in ? the media ? because ? ? of ? this, ? mostly ? denying ? that it was us that were visible a certain ? ? day. ? ? ? ? ? http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd ? ? ? ? http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab ? ? ? ? http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx ? ? ? ? ? ? Lasse ? Schmidt ? ? ? Upplevelsepresent.se ? ? Skeppsbron 21, ? Tullhus 1 ? ? 11130 ? Stockholm ? ? 070-28 32 ? ? 660 ? ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? ? Personal_Submersibles ? ? mailing ? list ? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 20:19:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 20:19:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413850474.40071.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1413850474.40071.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7BB9C883-C4BE-42A8-8403-E80CAB4E3741@AOL.com> Like maybe a nice paisley Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band style. Just think of the uniform/costumes you could wear! Confound your enemies, that's the secret. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:14 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Pete, > Yikes! It is pretty funny though, mind you what do you expect with a flat back diesel sub, come on paint it a friendly colour. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 7:35 PM > > > Hank, I > hope MUST doesn't come kicking down your door. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Military_Intelligence_and_Security_Service > > Pete > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:11 PM > > > Pete, > I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I > am > one and I think Emile is also :-) > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt > in Sweden > > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 > PM > > > I read > the Swedes think > it's Russian and the > Russians say > "You better ask the > > Dutch". Anybody know of a > > Dutchman > with submarine ? > > Pete > > > > > --------------------------------------- > > On > Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via > > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt > in Sweden > > To: > > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM > > > > > My > favorite sound is > an old fishing > trawler > > > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? > " > via > > > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt > in > Sweden > > To: > > "Personal Submersibles > General Discussion" > > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, > 3:45 > PM > > > E-Mail Software > 6.0Was > > > the other one > blue > > > with yellow > > stripes > and makes sound > like a > old fishing > > trawler? > ;-) > > > > > > > > "Lasse Schmidt > via > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles" > > schrieb: > > That is correct > > Allan, > it's very > exciting, > > > Lasse > > > SchmidtUpplevelseakuten > > ABSkeppsbron 21, > > > Tullhus > > > 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 > > 16 > > > 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 > 32 660 > 20 okt 2014 > kl. > 20:43 skrev > "Alan > James via > > > > Personal_Submersibles" > : > > Thanks > > > > Lasse,great > media > > coverage you are getting > there.I > ran Google > > translate, but it > wasn't perfect.From > > what I can understand > > there > was a military type > > submarine sighted > & itwas > > being > > > confused with your submarine. Is that > > > correct?Cheers > > Alan > > > From: Lasse > > Schmidt > via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal > Submersibles > > General > Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, > October 21, 2014 3:20 AM > > > > > > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine > hunt > in > Sweden > > > > > As a few of you might have noticed, > that > we have some > submarine issues in Sweden > > > right now. > Our > submarine > > > and myself got quite a > lot of attention > in > the > media > because > > of > this, > > mostly > denying > that > it was us that were > visible a certain > > > day. > > > http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd > > http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab > > http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx > > > > > > Lasse > Schmidt > > Upplevelsepresent.se > > Skeppsbron 21, > Tullhus > > 1 > > 11130 > Stockholm > 070-28 32 > > 660 > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles > > > > mailing > list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 20:33:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 18:33:28 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <7BB9C883-C4BE-42A8-8403-E80CAB4E3741@AOL.com> References: <1413850474.40071.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7BB9C883-C4BE-42A8-8403-E80CAB4E3741@AOL.com> Message-ID: There is a fine line between genius and insanity. The trick is to keep people guessing. Sean On October 20, 2014 6:19:49 PM MDT, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Like maybe a nice paisley Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band style. >Just think of the uniform/costumes you could wear! Confound your >enemies, that's the secret. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:14 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> >> Pete, >> Yikes! It is pretty funny though, mind you what do you expect with a >flat back diesel sub, come on paint it a friendly colour. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > >> Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 7:35 PM >> >> >> Hank, I >> hope MUST doesn't come kicking down your door. >> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Military_Intelligence_and_Security_Service >> >> Pete >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden >> >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:11 PM >> >> >> Pete, >> I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I >> am >> one and I think Emile is also :-) >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt >> in Sweden >> >> To: >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 >> PM >> >> >> I read >> the Swedes think >> it's Russian and the >> Russians say >> "You better ask the >> >> Dutch". Anybody know of a >> >> Dutchman >> with submarine ? >> >> Pete >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------- >> >> On >> Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via >> >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: >> >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt >> in Sweden >> >> To: >> >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM >> >> >> >> >> My >> favorite sound is >> an old fishing >> trawler >> >> >> >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? >> " >> via >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: >> >> >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt >> in >> Sweden >> >> To: >> >> "Personal Submersibles >> General Discussion" >> >> Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, >> 3:45 >> PM >> >> >> E-Mail Software >> 6.0Was >> >> >> the other one >> blue >> >> >> with yellow >> >> stripes >> and makes sound >> like a >> old fishing >> >> trawler? >> ;-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Lasse Schmidt >> via >> >> >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles" >> >> schrieb: >> >> That is correct >> >> Allan, >> it's very >> exciting, >> >> >> Lasse >> >> >> SchmidtUpplevelseakuten >> >> ABSkeppsbron 21, >> >> >> Tullhus >> >> >> 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 >> >> 16 >> >> >> 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 >> 32 660 >> 20 okt 2014 >> kl. >> 20:43 skrev >> "Alan >> James via >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles" >> : >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Lasse,great >> media >> >> coverage you are getting >> there.I >> ran Google >> >> translate, but it >> wasn't perfect.From >> >> what I can understand >> >> there >> was a military type >> >> submarine sighted >> & itwas >> >> being >> >> >> confused with your submarine. Is that >> >> >> correct?Cheers >> >> Alan >> >> >> From: Lasse >> >> Schmidt >> via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal >> Submersibles >> >> General >> Discussion >> >> Sent: Tuesday, >> October 21, 2014 3:20 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine >> hunt >> in >> Sweden >> >> >> >> >> As a few of you might have noticed, >> that >> we have some >> submarine issues in Sweden >> >> >> right now. >> Our >> submarine >> >> >> and myself got quite a >> lot of attention >> in >> the >> media >> because >> >> of >> this, >> >> mostly >> denying >> that >> it was us that were >> visible a certain >> >> >> day. >> >> >> >http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd >> >> http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab >> >> >http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx >> >> >> >> >> >> Lasse >> Schmidt >> >> Upplevelsepresent.se >> >> Skeppsbron 21, >> Tullhus >> >> 1 >> >> 11130 >> Stockholm >> 070-28 32 >> >> 660 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> mailing >> list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 20 21:54:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 21:54:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Blue Ocean film festival Message-ID: Just forwading this link in case any members are within range of St Petersburg, FL. Wish I were there! http://www.blueoceanfilmfestival.org/ Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 01:28:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 22:28:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <95CC4A31-85FA-437D-B299-20C13A8A7E69@upplevelsepresent.se> References: <1238AD94-BAD4-4FA2-B2C4-005B9B1EE512@upplevelsepresent.se> <1413830275.19160.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <95CC4A31-85FA-437D-B299-20C13A8A7E69@upplevelsepresent.se> Message-ID: <1413869310.10532.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Lasse, your submarine story was on our national news here in NewZealand. (you weren't featured) But I heard it first on Psubs. Apparently they have intersepted communications to Russia & are concerned that there may be a nuclear submarine in trouble. Alan ________________________________ From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse Schmidt Upplevelseakuten AB Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm Telefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10 Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : Thanks Lasse, >great media coverage you are getting there. >I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect. >From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & it >was being confused with your submarine. Is that correct? >Cheers Alan > > > >________________________________ > From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > > >As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. >Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. > >http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd > >http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab > >http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx > > >Lasse Schmidt >Upplevelsepresent.se >Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 >11130 Stockholm >070-28 32 660 > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 10:00:37 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:00:37 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was not me.. The Dutch silent service usually do exercises near Scotland and they are seldom lost.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXgjl-sR2A It is a advantage to have a sub in any other colour than flat black or grey.. They look like a military sub even how small they are. Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 20 oktober 2014 23:42 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? Pete --------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM My favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM E-Mail Software 6.0Was the other one blue with yellow stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ;-)? "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ABSkeppsbron 21, Tullhus 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" : Thanks Lasse,great media coverage you are getting there.I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect.From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & itwas being confused with your submarine. Is that correct?Cheers Alan ? ? ? ? From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden ??? As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarde n-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 10:31:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:31:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: References: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Traditionally I suppose civilian subs have been painted in bright colors just for visibility. But in today's world, particularly in the US, I think the bright colors are just as important for conveying the message that you are not trying to hide. I've taken Snoopy to Florida twice, and both times the Coast Guard or Police were circling me within minutes our first time out. Once in a helicopter, the other time with a boat. They circled a few times to take a look and then left us alone for the rest of our stay in the area. Its pure speculation, but I really feel that if Snoopy were painted in black, gray, or camouflage, they would probably have wanted to come aboard for a closer look, and with a K-250's freeboard that would be really problematic if not impossible in open water, so it would have required a trip back to the boat ramp and spoiled a day's diving. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > It was not me.. The Dutch silent service usually do exercises near > Scotland > and they are seldom lost.. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXgjl-sR2A > It is a advantage to have a sub in any other colour than flat black or > grey.. They look like a military sub even how small they are. > > Regards, Emile > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] > Namens Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 20 oktober 2014 23:42 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > > > I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask > the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? > > Pete > > --------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM > > > My > favorite sound is an old fishing trawler > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM > > E-Mail Software > 6.0Was > the other one blue > with yellow > stripes and makes sound like a > old fishing trawler? > ;-) > > > > > > "Lasse Schmidt via > > Personal_Submersibles" > > schrieb: > > That is correct > Allan, it's very exciting, > > Lasse > SchmidtUpplevelseakuten > ABSkeppsbron 21, > Tullhus > > 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 > > 16 > 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 > 20 okt 2014 > kl. 20:43 skrev > "Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles" : > > Thanks > > Lasse,great > media coverage you are getting > there.I > ran Google > > translate, but it wasn't perfect.From > > what I can understand there was a military type > submarine sighted & itwas > > being confused with your submarine. Is that > > correct?Cheers > Alan > > > From: Lasse > Schmidt > via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal > Submersibles > General > Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, > October 21, 2014 3:20 AM > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt > in > Sweden > > > As a few of you might have noticed, > that we have some submarine issues in Sweden > right now. > Our submarine > > and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media > because > of this, > mostly > denying that it was us that were visible a certain > day. > > > > http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarde > n-under-helgen_4026049.svd > > http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab > > > http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx > > > Lasse > Schmidt > Upplevelsepresent.se > Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 > > 11130 Stockholm > 070-28 32 > > 660 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles > mailing > list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 13:27:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8gIg==?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 21 Oct 2014 17:27 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413843114.83714.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1413843114.83714.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1XgdE0-3j1paK0@fwd01.t-online.de> And I know a dutch sub with a russian star on the forward deck.. "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > > Pete, > I know of a couple of Dutchmen with subs, I am one and I think Emile is also :-) > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 5:41 PM > > > I read > the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say > "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a > Dutchman with submarine ? > > Pete > > --------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM > > > My > favorite sound is an old fishing trawler > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " > via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt > in Sweden > > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 > PM > > E-Mail Software > 6.0Was > the other one > blue > with yellow > > stripes and makes sound like a > old fishing > trawler? > ;-) > > > > > > "Lasse Schmidt > via > > > Personal_Submersibles" > > schrieb: > > That is correct > Allan, > it's very exciting, > > Lasse > > SchmidtUpplevelseakuten > ABSkeppsbron 21, > Tullhus > > > 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 > > 16 > 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 > 32 660 > 20 okt 2014 > kl. > 20:43 skrev > "Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles" > : > > Thanks > > > Lasse,great > media > coverage you are getting > there.I > ran Google > > translate, but it wasn't perfect.From > > what I can understand there > was a military type > submarine sighted > & itwas > > being > confused with your submarine. Is that > > correct?Cheers > Alan > > > From: Lasse > Schmidt > via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal > Submersibles > General > Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, > October 21, 2014 3:20 AM > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine > hunt > in > Sweden > > > > As a few of you might have noticed, > that > we have some submarine issues in Sweden > > right now. > Our submarine > > > and myself got quite a lot of attention in > the media > because > of > this, > mostly > denying > that it was us that were visible a certain > day. > > > http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarden-under-helgen_4026049.svd > > http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab > > http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx > > > > Lasse > Schmidt > > Upplevelsepresent.se > Skeppsbron 21, > Tullhus 1 > > 11130 > Stockholm > 070-28 32 > > 660 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing > list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 14:16:15 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: References: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413915375.99294.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> This could be the same sub! It keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar system. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: submarine road.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 121141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 17:56:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:56:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413915375.99294.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413928610.95210.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A flat black sub is just going to irritate the wrong people and you could end up asking for a permit each time you want to take your sub for a spin. Or just put a big happy face on it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 2:16 PM This could be the same sub!It keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar system.Alan -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 21 18:49:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: References: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <368675631.1049080.1413931759510.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> No reason for a PSub not to be as visible as possible. As for colour, I found a relevant study: http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf Fluorescent green above the waterline, flat black below? Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:31:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden Traditionally I suppose civilian subs have been painted in bright colors just for visibility. But in today's world, particularly in the US, I think the bright colors are just as important for conveying the message that you are not trying to hide. I've taken Snoopy to Florida twice, and both times the Coast Guard or Police were circling me within minutes our first time out. Once in a helicopter, the other time with a boat. They circled a few times to take a look and then left us alone for the rest of our stay in the area. Its pure speculation, but I really feel that if Snoopy were painted in black, gray, or camouflage, they would probably have wanted to come aboard for a closer look, and with a K-250's freeboard that would be really problematic if not impossible in open water, so it would have required a trip back to the boat ramp and spoiled a day's diving. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: It was not me.. The Dutch silent service usually do exercises near Scotland and they are seldom lost.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXgjl-sR2A It is a advantage to have a sub in any other colour than flat black or grey.. They look like a military sub even how small they are. Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] Namens Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 20 oktober 2014 23:42 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden I read the Swedes think it's Russian and the Russians say "You better ask the Dutch". Anybody know of a Dutchman with submarine ? Pete --------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 4:01 PM My favorite sound is an old fishing trawler Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/20/14, Carsten Standfu? " via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Received: Monday, October 20, 2014, 3:45 PM E-Mail Software 6.0Was the other one blue with yellow stripes and makes sound like a old fishing trawler? ;-) "Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > schrieb: That is correct Allan, it's very exciting, Lasse SchmidtUpplevelseakuten ABSkeppsbron 21, Tullhus 111130 StockholmTelefon v?xel: 08-660 16 10Mobiltelefon: 070-28 32 660 20 okt 2014 kl. 20:43 skrev "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org >: Thanks Lasse,great media coverage you are getting there.I ran Google translate, but it wasn't perfect.From what I can understand there was a military type submarine sighted & itwas being confused with your submarine. Is that correct?Cheers Alan From: Lasse Schmidt via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:20 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden As a few of you might have noticed, that we have some submarine issues in Sweden right now. Our submarine and myself got quite a lot of attention in the media because of this, mostly denying that it was us that were visible a certain day. http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/nyheter/sverige/familj-filmade-ubat-i-skargarde n-under-helgen_4026049.svd http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19715914.ab http://www.mvt.se/nyheter/ubatskapten-inte-vi-bakom-krankning-10274389.aspx Lasse Schmidt Upplevelsepresent.se Skeppsbron 21, Tullhus 1 11130 Stockholm 070-28 32 660 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 22 01:29:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 22:29:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413928610.95210.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1413915375.99294.YahooMailNeo@web120901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1413928610.95210.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004f01cfedb9$29560670$7c021350$@telus.net> Flat black looks kinda cool, no doubt. But very suspicious too. Jet-fighter-grey is likely no better. I am leaning toward a white or light yellow. Hank, since your sub matches the colour of my truck, should I paint my sub to match the colour of your truck? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-21-14 2:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden A flat black sub is just going to irritate the wrong people and you could end up asking for a permit each time you want to take your sub for a spin. Or just put a big happy face on it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 2:16 PM This could be the same sub!It keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar system.Alan -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 22 08:27:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 05:27:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <004f01cfedb9$29560670$7c021350$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1413980867.86268.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Tim, I love the black on your sub, it really suits it. I have a better idea, lets trade trucks. Picking a colour is quite tricky. I find people don't take the sub seriously if it is yellow. Yellow is my favorite, I picked white because it is more scientific. I need to add some orange, maybe inside the hatch and a ring around the ct like Alec has. When there are boaters on the lake, I feel quite vulnerable because it feels like they are heading strait at me lol. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/22/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 1:29 AM Flat black looks kinda cool, no doubt.? But very suspicious too. Jet-fighter-grey is likely no better.? I am leaning toward a white or light yellow. Hank, since your sub matches the colour of my truck, should I paint my sub to match the colour of your truck? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-21-14 2:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden A flat black sub is just going to irritate the wrong people and you could end up asking for a permit each time you want to take your sub for a spin. Or just put a big happy face on it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 2:16 PM This could be the same sub!It keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar? system.Alan ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 22 19:29:38 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:29:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <368675631.1049080.1413931759510.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> References: <1413841291.29794.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <368675631.1049080.1413931759510.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: <54483DE2.6040707@psubs.org> I don't know...maybe fluorescent tower but more than that would be pretty thugly I think. I'd rather include a flashing beacon for surface visibility. Jon On 10/21/2014 6:49 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > No reason for a PSub not to be as visible as possible. As for colour, > I found a relevant study: > > http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf > > Fluorescent green above the waterline, flat black below? > > Sean > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 23 18:39:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 15:39:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <54483DE2.6040707@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've been wondering about the reflective paint used on road signs. Pete -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/22/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 6:29 PM I don't know...maybe fluorescent tower but more than that would be pretty thugly I think.? I'd rather include a flashing beacon for surface visibility. Jon On 10/21/2014 6:49 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: No reason for a PSub not to be as visible as possible.? As for colour, I found a relevant study: http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf Fluorescent green above the waterline, flat black below? Sean -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 23 18:53:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 15:53:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <54483DE2.6040707@psubs.org> <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Check out railroad gates made from fiberglass. The red and white surface looks like tiny honeycomb...I bought some damaged ones at an auction and use segments on my trailers. JimR On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I've been wondering about the reflective paint used on road signs. > > > Pete > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 10/22/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 6:29 PM > > > > > I don't know...maybe fluorescent tower but more > than that would be > pretty thugly I think. I'd rather include a > flashing beacon for > surface visibility. > > Jon > > > > > > On 10/21/2014 6:49 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > No > reason for a PSub not to be as visible as > possible. As for > colour, I found a relevant study: > > > > > http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf > > > > Fluorescent > green above the waterline, flat black > below? > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 23 18:59:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 15:59:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <54483DE2.6040707@psubs.org> <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Google "High Intensity Reflective Tape" On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I've been wondering about the reflective paint used on road signs. > > > Pete > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 10/22/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 6:29 PM > > > > > I don't know...maybe fluorescent tower but more > than that would be > pretty thugly I think. I'd rather include a > flashing beacon for > surface visibility. > > Jon > > > > > > On 10/21/2014 6:49 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > No > reason for a PSub not to be as visible as > possible. As for > colour, I found a relevant study: > > > > > http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf > > > > Fluorescent > green above the waterline, flat black > below? > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 23 20:51:44 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 18:51:44 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: References: <54483DE2.6040707@psubs.org> <1414103998.87865.YahooMailBasic@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 3M SOLAS compliant retroreflective tape / fabric. Sean On October 23, 2014 4:59:41 PM MDT, Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Google "High Intensity Reflective Tape" > >On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Pete Niedermayr via >Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> I've been wondering about the reflective paint used on road signs. >> >> >> Pete >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 10/22/14, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 6:29 PM >> >> >> >> >> I don't know...maybe fluorescent tower but more >> than that would be >> pretty thugly I think. I'd rather include a >> flashing beacon for >> surface visibility. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/21/2014 6:49 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> No >> reason for a PSub not to be as visible as >> possible. As for >> colour, I found a relevant study: >> >> >> >> >> >http://www.worksafebc.com/contact_us/research/funding_decisions/assets/pdf/2009/RS2009_IG30.pdf >> >> >> >> Fluorescent >> green above the waterline, flat black >> below? >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 00:36:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 21:36:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1413980867.86268.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <004f01cfedb9$29560670$7c021350$@telus.net> <1413980867.86268.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01cfef44$0a13fb50$1e3bf1f0$@telus.net> Hank, maybe we should just trade submarines. The tail plane of your sub is yellow. Is this meant to be more of a visual warning to tailgating drivers on the road, like having a red flag on overhanging lumber? The study by WorkSafe BC was interesting, but florescent green is not on my list of choices. Everybody, especially women, say my sub is "cute". Well, terrific. IVC deliberately designed it to be just that, a cartoon submarine to look harmless yet be an obviously functional sub. And they got it right as is obvious by the reactions I get from people passing by (though some thought it was a helicopter). The black looks cool, but heats up too much in the sun and very poor as far as visibility and safety go. You will note in the photos I put in the projects area that the black trailer is practically invisible when only submerged four or five feet to launch and recover the sub. The sub quickly disappears while submerged in a lake. The constant bubbles give it away, though. I agree with your comments about yellow. Maybe a pale orange, but that would completely change the look of the submarine... not as cool looking, but certainly friendlier and safer. Still, a light grey is up there, and coupled with the diver flag painted on the roof may just do it. Happily, paint is cheap. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-22-14 5:28 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden Tim, I love the black on your sub, it really suits it. I have a better idea, lets trade trucks. Picking a colour is quite tricky. I find people don't take the sub seriously if it is yellow. Yellow is my favorite, I picked white because it is more scientific. I need to add some orange, maybe inside the hatch and a ring around the ct like Alec has. When there are boaters on the lake, I feel quite vulnerable because it feels like they are heading strait at me lol. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/22/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 1:29 AM Flat black looks kinda cool, no doubt.? But very suspicious too. Jet-fighter-grey is likely no better.? I am leaning toward a white or light yellow. Hank, since your sub matches the colour of my truck, should I paint my sub to match the colour of your truck? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-21-14 2:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden A flat black sub is just going to irritate the wrong people and you could end up asking for a permit each time you want to take your sub for a spin. Or just put a big happy face on it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 2:16 PM This could be the same sub!It keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar? system.Alan ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 07:04:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 04:04:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden In-Reply-To: <005b01cfef44$0a13fb50$1e3bf1f0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1414148681.10460.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Tim, I was going to paint Gamma yellow and as I fixed each part I would paint it, then put it away until the sub was ready to assemble. I painted the hull white as an under colour, then installed the yellow parts to paint it all at once and decided I liked the sub white with the yellow tail. Even painted white, Gamma gets darn hot sitting at the surface. I can't imagine what your black sub is like in the sun. I doubt grey will be much better. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/24/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 12:36 AM Hank, maybe we should just trade submarines. The tail plane of your sub is yellow.? Is this meant to be more of a visual warning to tailgating drivers on the road, like having a red flag on overhanging lumber? The study by WorkSafe BC was interesting, but florescent green is not on my list of choices.? Everybody, especially women, say my sub is "cute".? Well, terrific.? IVC deliberately designed it to be just that, a cartoon submarine to look harmless yet be an obviously functional sub.? And they got it right as is obvious by the reactions I get from people passing by (though some thought it was a helicopter).? The black looks cool, but heats up too much in the sun and very poor as far as visibility and safety go.? You will note in the photos I put in the projects area that the black trailer is practically invisible when only submerged four or five feet to launch and recover the sub.? The sub quickly disappears while submerged in a lake.? The constant bubbles give it away, though. I agree with your comments about yellow.? Maybe a pale orange, but that would completely change the look of the submarine... not as cool looking, but certainly friendlier and safer.? Still, a light grey is up there, and coupled with the diver flag painted on the roof may just do it.? Happily, paint is cheap. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-22-14 5:28 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden Tim, I love the black on your sub, it really suits it.? I have a better idea, lets trade trucks.? Picking a colour is quite tricky.? I find people don't take the sub seriously if it is yellow.? Yellow is my favorite, I picked white because it is more scientific.? I need to add some orange, maybe inside the hatch and a ring around the ct like Alec has.? When there are boaters on the lake, I feel quite vulnerable because it feels like they are heading strait at me lol. Hank? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/22/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 1:29 AM Flat black looks kinda cool, no doubt.? But very suspicious too. Jet-fighter-grey is likely no better.? I am? leaning toward a white or light? yellow. Hank, since your sub matches the colour of my truck, should I paint my sub? to match the colour of your truck? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-21-14 2:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden A flat black sub is just going to irritate the wrong people? and you could end up asking for a permit? each time you want to take your sub for a spin. Or just put a big happy face on it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine hunt in Sweden To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 2:16? PM ? ? This could be the ? same sub!It ? keeps on getting lost. It pays to invest in a good sonar? system.Alan ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 08:01:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 08:01:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Message-ID: I recently finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer. For anyone interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments. Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild The main improvement was the addition of a trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some 1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates. I am anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for it since it is "done". I would like to see more "trailer" photos posted. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 08:28:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 05:28:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1414153684.49717.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Steve, Nice trailer! great job, love the torque flex axels. I notice you don't have brakes, I didn't realize the K250 was that light. May I suggest a brace from the frame to support the middle of the fender. It will bend if it is a step, you might have one already, just can't see it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/24/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 8:01 AM I recently finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer.? For anyone interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments.? ?Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild The main improvement was the addition of a trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some 1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates.? I am anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for it since it is "done". I would like to see more "trailer" photos posted. Steve -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 08:55:13 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 08:55:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars In-Reply-To: <1414153684.49717.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414153684.49717.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Steve, Good restoration project, but you absolutely, positively must have brakes! If I had two axles, I'd put brakes on both of them. A few years back Snoopy's trailer brakes had degraded a bit without me realizing it, and on a trip to the lakes in WV I totally cooked the truck brakes because they were doing all the work. I had to replace not just the pads but all four rotors. The good news is trailer brakes are really simple and if I'm not mistaken a bolt-on addition. Best, Alec On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > Nice trailer! great job, love the torque flex axels. > I notice you don't have brakes, I didn't realize the K250 was that light. > May I suggest a brace from the frame to support the middle of the fender. > It will bend if it is a step, you might have one already, just can't see it. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 10/24/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 8:01 AM > > I recently > finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer. For anyone > interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments. > > > Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild > > The main improvement was the addition of a > trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some > 1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates. I am > anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. > > I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for > it since it is "done". > > I would like to see more "trailer" > photos posted. > > Steve > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 10:03:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 10:03:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars In-Reply-To: <1414153684.49717.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414153684.49717.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, no breaks or fender supports. Probably good ideas. I wanted to get an accurate trailer weight as I noodle through the brake solution. Never finished is it? Steve On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > Nice trailer! great job, love the torque flex axels. > I notice you don't have brakes, I didn't realize the K250 was that light. > May I suggest a brace from the frame to support the middle of the fender. > It will bend if it is a step, you might have one already, just can't see it. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 10/24/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 8:01 AM > > I recently > finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer. For anyone > interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments. > > > Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild > > The main improvement was the addition of a > trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some > 1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates. I am > anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. > > I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for > it since it is "done". > > I would like to see more "trailer" > photos posted. > > Steve > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 24 15:34:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 12:34:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1414179270.48335.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Steve, Just when you think your there, another thing to do. Remember my fenders at the convention, very wimpy. I actually sold that trailer. It towed nice but I felt the sub was to much for it and the tire size was minimal. Glad I sold it after hearing about Emile's troubles. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/24/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 10:03 AM Hank, no breaks or fender supports. Probably good ideas. I wanted to get an accurate trailer weight as I noodle through the brake solution. Never finished is it? Steve On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Steve, Nice trailer! great job, love the torque flex axels. I notice you don't have brakes, I didn't realize the K250 was that light.? May I suggest a brace from the frame to support the middle of the fender.? It will bend if it is a step, you might have one already, just can't see it. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/24/14, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, October 24, 2014, 8:01 AM ?I recently ?finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer.? For anyone ?interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments.? ??Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild ?The main improvement was the addition of a ?trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some ?1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates.? I am ?anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. ?I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for ?it since it is "done". ?I would like to see more "trailer" ?photos posted. ?Steve ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 25 18:21:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 15:21:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Message-ID: <1414275690.25547.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it will be reborn. The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it. The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks. On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart, as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries. I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water. The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 25 20:55:44 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 20:55:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <1414275690.25547.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414275690.25547.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage to go where no one has gone before! Sounds like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure you'll keep us up-to-date with photos, won't you. ~ Douglas S. On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it > will be reborn. The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd > cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic > motor to drive it. The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act > as ballast tanks. On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor > that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart, as well as a 24v > alternator to charge my sub batteries. I will be able to drive the cart > with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water. > The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub > on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 25 22:39:50 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 19:39:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Message-ID: <20141025193950.11D134C0@m0005311.ppops.net> Sounds very versatile ! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 15:21:30 -0700 I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it will be reborn. The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it. The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks. On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart, as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries. I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water. The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Oct 25 22:46:16 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 19:46:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ball Valves Message-ID: <20141025194616.11D134FC@m0005311.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 00:37:35 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 21:37:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-350 bill of materials Message-ID: Hi, i will like to know if some one on the group have a bill of materilas for the k350 to make a quote with the idea of build it. thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 07:39:52 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:39:52 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. Graham -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 08:41:38 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 05:41:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> Message-ID: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 {} #yiv9417249292 ?Hi ?I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ?where it is compressed ?then it is forced into ducting which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. ?Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 08:47:51 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 05:47:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ball Valves In-Reply-To: <20141025194616.11D134FC@m0005311.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1414327671.24564.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brain, Gamma's ballast valves turn easy because they have a billion rotations on them. My flood valve is quite stiff, and all the ball valves in Gamma have Teflon inserts. Not sure what type you are looking at? Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/25/14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ball Valves To: "PSubs" Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 10:46 PM It? seems like all the ball valves I've looked at are extremely tight, I mean it takes a lot of force to turn the suckers !? I noticed the ball valves on Gama did not seem to have Teflon inserts in them and they seemed to turn effortlessly.? I'm afraid if these things are so hard to turn I'm going to shear off the connecting rod that is turning them.? I'm planning on having some 2" ball valves for my ballast, any suggestions on how I can get them to turn with ease ??Brian -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 08:51:03 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 05:51:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1414327863.75610.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Douglas, Necessity is the mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find I can not launch. It is time to get serious about L&R I would do track drive but it is to heavy. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 PM Hank, I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage to go where no one has gone before! Sounds like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure you'll keep us up-to-date with photos, won't you. ~ Douglas S. ?? On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 09:07:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 09:07:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <1414275690.25547.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414275690.25547.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What impresses me is that to most of us this would be a six month or year-long project, but I would not be surprised to see pictures in a day or two! Alec On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it > will be reborn. The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd > cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic > motor to drive it. The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act > as ballast tanks. On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor > that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart, as well as a 24v > alternator to charge my sub batteries. I will be able to drive the cart > with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water. > The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub > on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 09:11:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 09:11:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> Message-ID: An underwater Harrier! The idea is quite similar to Cousteau's diving saucer too. Great maneuverability, but not too efficient energy-wise. Still, it's all about compromises and that would be an original design I think everyone would like to see implemented. Best, Alec On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new > designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer > to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which > will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the > rear of the unit where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The > nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a > vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this > will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I > am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. > > > > Graham > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 10:11:02 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:11:02 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 10:50:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 07:50:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1414335034.5297.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Mark, I have coffee with a neat old guy that has a aluminum jet boat with 1,000 hp and goes 130 mph that does not sound efficient. :-) Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 10:11 AM There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >???Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >???To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >???Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > >???#yiv9417249292 >???#yiv9417249292 -- > >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >???5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >???#yiv9417249292 >???#yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >???li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >???div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >?????? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >???#yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >???span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >?????? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >???#yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >???span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >?????? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >???#yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >?????? {color:#1F497D;} >???#yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >?????? {} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >???72.0pt;} >???#yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >?????? {} >???#yiv9417249292? Hi???I am near the end of my build >???of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >???interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >???design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >???enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >???designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >???as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >? ? where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting >???which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of >???the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >???sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so >???rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >???you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >???ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >???your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >???of design.? Graham > >???-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >???_______________________________________________ >???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 11:06:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:06:12 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Hi Hank I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un folds. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 {} #yiv9417249292 ?Hi ?I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ?where it is compressed ?then it is forced into ducting which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. ?Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 11:12:26 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:12:26 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> Message-ID: <001301cff12f$411759c0$c3460d40$@net> Hi Alec You guessed it I have taken the idea from the harrier I love how simple the idea is and the use of one motor intrigues me I am sure I can build it and have made a start on building a model which I will experiment with I hope to start building the real thing in the not too distant future I also have a very clever engineer on board who likes my idea. Thanks for the vote of confidence I will keep the club up to date as we progress. Graham From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 13:11 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) An underwater Harrier! The idea is quite similar to Cousteau's diving saucer too. Great maneuverability, but not too efficient energy-wise. Still, it's all about compromises and that would be an original design I think everyone would like to see implemented. Best, Alec On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. Graham _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 11:15:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:15:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Message-ID: <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Graham, A jet ski jet is gigantic for a psub. Jet ski's have 50hp and more, the one I have is from a 750 cc two stroke engine. Mine has a 3 inch nozzle at least maybe more. Jets are very bad for maneuvering, they have no grip in the water like a prop. Yes fast ferries use them but they are owned by governments, check the fuel tank size lol. I would do some reading about jet viruses props. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and it is a fun idea, I just don't think it will do what you imagine it will. I hope I am wrong. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM Hi Hank I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un folds. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ??? {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ??? {} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ??? {} #yiv9417249292 ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ?where it is compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind? of design. ?Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 11:16:37 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:16:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Message-ID: <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Graham, message me at hankpronk at live.ca I am happy to send you some stuff. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM Hi Hank I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un folds. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ??? {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ??? {} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ??? {} #yiv9417249292 ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ?where it is compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind? of design. ?Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 11:16:38 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:16:38 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> Message-ID: <001801cff12f$d6f91a00$84eb4e00$@net> Hi Marc de Piolenc I agree whole heartedly there is nothing inefficient about a water jet just point it one way and add power and you will end up going the other way as they say a=b= push. I will carry on with this and have a working craft at the end to enjoy. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 14:11 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 13:25:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:25:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1414344340.13872.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, This project will take some time, and some experimenting. I am using a 23cubic inch hyd motor to drive the cart. I am not sure that will do it, so I am building it to take any motor. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 9:07 AM What impresses me is that to most of us this would be a six month or year-long project, but I would not be surprised to see pictures in a day or two! Alec On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 15:11:26 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:11:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> Message-ID: I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same > speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less > amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it > is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes >> two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to >> a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very >> complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down >> this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I >> suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. >> The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I >> could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider >> a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> {color:#1F497D;} >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> {} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> 72.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> {} >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build >> of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >> interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >> design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >> enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >> designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >> as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of >> the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >> sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so >> rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >> ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >> your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> of design. Graham >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 15:41:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:41:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Message-ID: <1414352487.67979.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Graham, Been thinking about your jet idea, what about using centrifugal water pumps. You could use a dc direct drive pump and just rotate the motor and pump for vectoring. The seal in the pump can double as the seal for the motor. You would avoid any loss due to piping. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM Hi Hank I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un folds. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ??? {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ??? {} ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ??? {} #yiv9417249292 ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ?where it is compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind? of design. ?Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 15:50:58 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <728496821.504974.1414353058574.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> One problem I can see is that if you have your Jet suckingwater in from the front & you pivot your outlets to get verticalmotion, then you will get forward movement from the suction ofthe inlet at a similar rate.Also I did a bit of?research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back& what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. ? On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" ? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 -- ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ? ? ? ? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ? ? ? ? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ? ? ? ? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} ? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ? ? ? ? {} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt ? 72.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ? ? ? ? {} ? #yiv9417249292? Hi? ?I am near the end of my build ? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am ? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a ? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have ? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller ? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ? ?where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting ? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and ? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is ? you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind ? of design.? Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 15:57:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:57:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <728496821.504974.1414353058574.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414353474.1635.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I did not think of that, but your right. You could put a shroud over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the pump is pulling and pushing. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM One problem I can see is that if you have your Jet suckingwater in from the front & you pivot your outlets to get verticalmotion, then you will get forward movement from the suction ofthe inlet at a similar rate.Also I did a bit of?research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back& what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. ? On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" ? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 -- ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ? ? ? ? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ? ? ? ? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ? ? ? ? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} ? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ? ? ? ? {} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt ? 72.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ? ? ? ? {} ? #yiv9417249292? Hi? ?I am near the end of my build ? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am ? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a ? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have ? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller ? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ? ?where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting ? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and ? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is ? you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind ? of design.? Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 16:03:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:03:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Message-ID: <8D1BF6F0A762705-498-14FD7@webmail-va022.sysops.aol.com> Compress the water? Um... Vance -----Original Message----- From: Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sun, Oct 26, 2014 11:06 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Hi Hank I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un folds. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 {} #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of design. Graham -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 16:14:26 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:14:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414353474.1635.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414353474.1635.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1027888491.508912.1414354466336.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100141.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Hank,Graham wanted to rotate his jets separately so he couldget a roll / flying type motion. So he would need to havetwo separate intakes that rotated identically to the vertical outletsto acheive that without getting the forward motion & addedinefficiencies. I wonder what sort of roll you could get with aconventional set up.You must have tried that Hank / Alec. Do you get much of a tiltwhen you have your vertical thrusters working in differentdirections?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Alan, I did not think of that, but your right.? You could put a shroud over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the pump is pulling and pushing. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM One problem I can see is that if you have your Jet suckingwater in from the front & you pivot your outlets to get verticalmotion, then you will get forward movement from the suction ofthe inlet at a similar rate.Also I did a bit of?research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back& what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets ? I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. ? On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" ? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 -- ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ? ? ? ? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ? ? ? ? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ? ? ? ? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} ? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ? ? ? ? {} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt ? 72.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ? ? ? ? {} ? #yiv9417249292? Hi? ?I am near the end of my build ? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am ? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a ? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have ? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller ? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ? ?where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting ? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and ? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is ? you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind ? of design.? Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 16:25:48 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:25:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1027888491.508912.1414354466336.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100141.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414355148.36348.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Not much roll when you have a couple thousand pounds of ballast. I light low volume sub might get some roll. It would be a bugger to get into at the surface though. Maybe leave the rolling for airplanes. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 4:14 PM Hi Hank,Graham wanted to rotate his jets separately so he couldget a roll / flying type motion. So he would need to havetwo separate intakes that rotated identically to the vertical outletsto acheive that without getting the forward motion & addedinefficiencies. I wonder what sort of roll you could get with aconventional set up.You must have tried that Hank / Alec. Do you get much of a tiltwhen you have your vertical thrusters working in differentdirections?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Alan, I did not think of that, but your right.? You could put a shroud over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the pump is pulling and pushing. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM One problem I can see is that if you have your Jet suckingwater in from the front & you pivot your outlets to get verticalmotion, then you will get forward movement from the suction ofthe inlet at a similar rate.Also I did a bit of?research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back& what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets ? I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. ? On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same speed, certainly. Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. Marc de Piolenc On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Graham, In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" ? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 -- ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} ? #yiv9417249292 ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 ? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal ? ? ? ? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink ? ? ? ? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed ? ? ? ? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} ? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} ? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault ? ? ? ? {} ? ?_filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt ? 72.0pt;} ? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 ? ? ? ? {} ? #yiv9417249292? Hi? ?I am near the end of my build ? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am ? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a ? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have ? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller ? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit ? ?where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting ? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and ? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is ? you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind ? of design.? Graham ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 16:34:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:34:49 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414355148.36348.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414355148.36348.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When I was having lunch at Nuytco, I was told that Hawke's flying sub went upside down on the surface & couldn't be righted by the pilot. So something else to consider. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/10/2014, at 9:25 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, > Not much roll when you have a couple thousand pounds of ballast. I light low volume sub might get some roll. > It would be a bugger to get into at the surface though. Maybe leave the rolling for airplanes. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 4:14 PM > > Hi > Hank,Graham > wanted to rotate his jets separately so he > couldget a roll / flying > type motion. So he would need to havetwo > separate intakes that rotated identically to the vertical > outletsto > acheive that without getting the forward motion & > addedinefficiencies. > I wonder what sort of roll you could get with > aconventional > set up.You > must have tried that Hank / Alec. Do you get much of a > tiltwhen you > have your vertical thrusters working in > differentdirections?Alan > > From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: Monday, > October 27, 2014 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > Alan, > I did > not think of that, but your right. You could put a shroud > over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the > pump is pulling and pushing. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM > > One > problem > I can see is that if you have your Jet > > suckingwater in > from the front & you > pivot your outlets to get > > verticalmotion, > then you will get forward > movement from the suction > ofthe inlet > at a similar rate.Also I > did > a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of > weeks back& > what I read > said it was inefficient compared to conventional > propulsion.Alan > > From: Alec Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal > Submersibles > General Discussion > > > Sent: Monday, October > > 27, 2014 8:11 AM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I > > don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, > but > if there is considerable piping around > of the water before > it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring > to. > However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is > just a normal trade-off. It is surely less > efficient than a > conventional > direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > On Sun, > Oct 26, 2014 at > 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc > via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > There is > nothing inherently inefficient about > waterjets. There are > commercial fast > ferries using them and getting very good > > thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating > propeller could do at the same speed, > certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course > produce poor results, and jets > are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than > open propellers. But whether it is "well > known" or > not, good design will > produce good results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well > known that jet > drive takes two times the > horse power to do the same job. > Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow > draft. I think you will find it very > complicated to > control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down > this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet > drive. It is > not a simple part to > replicate. The impeller tolerances > are > critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a > jet ski. I would > consider a single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > > > Hank -------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham > Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] > (no subject) > > To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > > Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October > 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 > 3 5 4 6 3 2 > 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 > > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, > #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, > #yiv9417249292 > > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, > #yiv9417249292 > > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > > > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > > #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > > #yiv9417249292 > .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt > 72.0pt > 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I > am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new > designs I > am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have > come up with > a > > design which will include a vectored motor > drive this > will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where > ever I want. I > have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a > fan type > propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the > rear of the > unit > > where it is compressed then it is > forced into > ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles > on the side > of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn > three hundred > and > > sixty degrees both side are independent > of one another > so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a > vectored motor > is > > you only need one motor source and one > power pack this > will > > ease the maintenance and increase the > enjoyment of > using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs > thought of this > kind > > of design. Graham > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 16:48:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:48:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1414356535.77708.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A sub like that is fine if you are launching off your yacht. Should be called the turtle, bet it's fun to pilot Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 4:34 PM When I was having lunch at Nuytco, I was told that Hawke's flying sub went upside down on the surface & couldn't be righted by the pilot. So something else to consider. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/10/2014, at 9:25 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, > Not much roll when you have a couple thousand pounds of ballast.? I light low volume sub might get some roll. > It would be a bugger to get into at the surface though.? Maybe leave the rolling for airplanes. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 4:14 PM > > Hi > Hank,Graham > wanted to rotate his jets separately so he > couldget a roll / flying > type motion. So he would need to havetwo > separate intakes that rotated identically to the vertical > outletsto > acheive that without getting the forward motion & > addedinefficiencies. > I wonder what sort of roll you could get with > aconventional > set up.You > must have tried that Hank / Alec. Do you get much of a > tiltwhen you > have your vertical thrusters working in > differentdirections?Alan > >? ? ? ???From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: Monday, > October 27, 2014 8:57 AM >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > Alan, > I did > not think of that, but your right.? You could put a shroud > over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the > pump is pulling and pushing. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >? To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM > >? One >? problem > I can see is that if you have your Jet > > suckingwater in >? from the front & you > pivot your outlets to get > > verticalmotion, >? then you will get forward > movement from the suction >? ofthe inlet >? at a similar rate.Also I >? did > a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of >? weeks back& >? what I read > said it was inefficient compared to conventional >? propulsion.Alan >? ? ? ??? > From: Alec Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles >? >???To: Personal >? Submersibles > General Discussion >? > >???Sent: Monday, October > > 27, 2014 8:11 AM >???Subject: Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >??? > > >? I > > don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, > but >? if there is considerable piping around > of the water before >? it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring >? to. > However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is >? just a normal trade-off. It is surely less > efficient than a >? conventional > direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability.? > > >? On Sun, > Oct 26, 2014 at >? 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc > via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: >? There is >? nothing inherently inefficient about > waterjets. There are >? commercial fast > ferries using them and getting very good > > thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating >? propeller could do at the same speed, > certainly. > > > >? Lousy design will of course > produce poor results, and jets >? are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than >? open propellers. But whether it is "well > known" or >? not, good design will > produce good results. > > > >? Marc de Piolenc > > > >? On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > > > > >? Graham, > >? In the world of marine jet drive it is well > known that jet >? drive takes two times the > horse power to do the same job. >? Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow >? draft.? I think you will find it very > complicated to >? control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down >? this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go >? forward may I suggest you start with a jet > drive.? It is >? not a simple part to > replicate.? The impeller tolerances >? are > critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could >? donate to your project.? The jet is from a > jet ski. I would >? consider a single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > > > Hank -------------------------------------------- > >? On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham > Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >? >? wrote: > > > >? ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] > (no subject) > >? ? To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > > Discussion'" > >? ? Received: Sunday, October > 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > >? ? #yiv9417249292 > >? ? #yiv9417249292 -- > > > >? ???_filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 > 3 5 4 6 3 2 >? 4;} > >? ???_filtered #yiv9417249292 > > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > >? ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > >? ? #yiv9417249292 > >? ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, >? #yiv9417249292 > >? ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, > #yiv9417249292 > >??? > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > >? ? ? ??? > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > >? ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, > #yiv9417249292 > >??? > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > >? ? ? ??? > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > >? ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > >??? > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > >? ? ? ??? > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > >? ? #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > >? ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} > > >? ? #yiv9417249292 > .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > >? ? ? ? ? {} > >? ???_filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt > 72.0pt >? 72.0pt > >? ? 72.0pt;} > > >???#yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > >? ? ? ? ? {} > >? ? #yiv9417249292? Hi???I > am near the end of my build > >? ? of my k350 and have started to look at new > designs I >? am > >? ? interested in building a flyer sub and have > come up with >? a > >? ? design which will include a vectored motor > drive this >? will > >? ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where > ever I want. I >? have > >? ? designed a motor unit which will drive a > fan type >? propeller > >? ? as an intake this will force water to the > rear of the >? unit > >? ???where it is compressed? then it is > forced into >? ducting > >? ? which will take? the water to four nozzles > on the side >? of > >? ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn > three hundred >? and > >? ? sixty degrees? both side are independent > of one another >? so > >? ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a > vectored motor >? is > >? ? you only need one motor source and one > power pack this >? will > >? ? ease the maintenance and increase the > enjoyment of >? using > >? ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs > thought of this >? kind > >? ? of design.? Graham > > > >??? > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > >??? > _______________________________________________ > >? ? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >? -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >? Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >? Translations (BeWords > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >? ??? > >? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:09:44 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:09:44 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414335034.5297.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414335034.5297.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544D8D48.80407@archivale.com> I see what you mean. Pretty paltry ;-] Seriously, though. The mere fact of going over 50 knots is ample proof of the value of 'jets. Cavitation is a performance killer, and even supercavitating props are going to have a lot of trouble maintaining any net thrust at 130 knots, though they do manage it with three-step hydroplane boats and very alert throttle handlers. But I've managed to wander pretty far off-topic. Buzzzzzz! Best, Marc On 10/26/2014 10:50 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Mark, I have coffee with a neat old guy that has a aluminum jet boat > with 1,000 hp and goes 130 mph that does not sound efficient. :-) > Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, > Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets To: "Personal Submersibles > General Discussion" Received: > Sunday, October 26, 2014, 10:11 AM > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But > whether > > it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Graham, In the world > of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two times > the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very > complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been > down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank > -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no > subject) >> To: > "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > >> Received: Sunday, October 26, > 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> _filtered > #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv9417249292 #yiv9417249292 > p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, > #yiv9417249292 >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, > #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, > #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9417249292 > .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> {} _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> 72.0pt;} #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> {} #yiv9417249292 > Hi I am near the end of my build >> of my k350 and have started > to look at new designs I am >> interested in building a > flyer sub and have come up with a >> design which will include a > vectored motor drive this will >> enable my flyer to hover and > stop where ever I want. I have >> designed a motor unit which > will drive a fan type propeller >> as an intake this will force > water to the rear of the unit >> > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> which will take the water > to four nozzles on the side of >> the craft. The nozzles are > able to turn three hundred and >> sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so >> rolls will be achievable. The > reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor > source and one power pack this will >> ease the maintenance and > increase the enjoyment of using >> your sub. I am interested in > the clubs thought of this kind >> of design. Graham >> >> -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing > list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath > weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: > http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:11:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:11:09 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> Message-ID: <544D8D9D.20802@archivale.com> Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive > was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to build a larger > jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to the > system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a sub but I am certain I > can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project un > folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two > times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated > to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you > start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer sub and > have come up with a design which will include a vectored motor drive this > will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have designed > a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller as an intake this will > force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will take > the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles are able to > turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are independent of one > another so rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will ease the > maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am interested > in the clubs thought of this kind of design. Graham > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:13:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:13:22 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544D8E22.6050200@archivale.com> The fast cats I traveled on are owned by a shipping company. They make 30+ knots cruise on diesels and jets and make a profit...in the Philippines. The more expensive ones to own and operate have gas turbines and go 40+ knots. You don't find those here. Marc On 10/26/2014 11:15 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Graham, > A jet ski jet is gigantic for a psub. Jet ski's have 50hp and more, the one I have is from a 750 cc two stroke engine. Mine has a 3 inch nozzle at least maybe more. Jets are very bad for maneuvering, they have no grip in the water like a prop. Yes fast ferries use them but they are owned by governments, check the fuel tank size lol. I would do some reading about jet viruses props. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and it is a fun idea, I just don't think it will do what you imagine it will. I hope I am wrong. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM > > > Hi Hank > > > I agree a jet drive is the > way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive > was to small and would only drive a small > craft. I intend to build a larger > jet drive > and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to > the > system the jet drive from a jet ski > would not drive a sub but I am certain I > can > overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a > compressor. > Thank you for your input and I > will keep you informed as the project un > folds. > > Graham > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 > 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no > subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine > jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two > times the horse power to do the same job. Jet > drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a > shallow draft. I think you will find it very > complicated > to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you > start with a jet > drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The > impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your > project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a > single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 > 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 > 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 > Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and > have > started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and > have > come up with a design which will include a vectored motor > drive this > will enable my flyer to hover > and stop where ever I want. I have designed > a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will > force > water to the rear of the unit > where it is > compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take > the water to four nozzles on the side > of the craft. The nozzles are able to > turn > three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one > another so rolls will > be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the > maintenance and > increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am > interested > in the clubs thought of this > kind of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:15:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:15:54 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544D8EBA.3070304@archivale.com> Agree that a jet-ski jet would not be suitable for a sub. Wrong cruise speed, wrong input shaft speed, wrong horsepower input, wrong mass flow. One of the reasons that jets are still a fringe item is that they have to be custom designed essentially for every application. Marc On 10/26/2014 11:16 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Graham, > message me at hankpronk at live.ca I am happy to send you some stuff. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM > > > Hi Hank > > > I agree a jet drive is the > way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive > was to small and would only drive a small > craft. I intend to build a larger > jet drive > and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to > the > system the jet drive from a jet ski > would not drive a sub but I am certain I > can > overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a > compressor. > Thank you for your input and I > will keep you informed as the project un > folds. > > Graham > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 > 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no > subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine > jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two > times the horse power to do the same job. Jet > drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a > shallow draft. I think you will find it very > complicated > to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you > start with a jet > drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The > impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your > project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a > single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 > 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 > 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 > Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and > have > started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and > have > come up with a design which will include a vectored motor > drive this > will enable my flyer to hover > and stop where ever I want. I have designed > a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will > force > water to the rear of the unit > where it is > compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take > the water to four nozzles on the side > of the craft. The nozzles are able to > turn > three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one > another so rolls will > be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the > maintenance and > increase the enjoyment of using your sub. I am > interested > in the clubs thought of this > kind of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:20:11 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:20:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <544D8D9D.20802@archivale.com> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> <544D8D9D.20802@archivale.com> Message-ID: <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of > design. Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:22:32 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:22:32 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> Message-ID: <544D9048.3020305@archivale.com> Surely isn't sure at all. And as speed through the water increases, the advantage, which might have rested with the open prop at lower speeds, definitely shifts to the jet. The jet's single biggest advantage, in fact, is being able to control inflow to the rotor to prevent cavitation. Marc On 10/27/2014 3:11 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:24:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:24:30 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <728496821.504974.1414353058574.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <728496821.504974.1414353058574.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! Marc On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:25:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:25:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <1414327863.75610.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414327863.75610.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004f01cff17c$85e3eee0$91abcca0$@telus.net> Brilliant, Hank. Looking forward to seeing the results. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-26-14 5:51 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Douglas, Necessity is the mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find I can not launch. It is time to get serious about L&R I would do track drive but it is to heavy. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 PM Hank, I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage to go where no one has gone before! Sounds like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure you'll keep us up-to-date with photos, won't you. ~ Douglas S. ?? On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:27:52 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:27:52 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> <544D8D9D.20802@archivale.com> <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> Message-ID: <544D9188.9020003@archivale.com> I just finished reading Piccard's recollections of the Ben Franklin drift dive mission. I don't recall anything about compressing water. Marc On 10/27/2014 8:20 AM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water > is just not very compressible. > > Ken Martindale > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Compressing water will be quite some trick. > > Marc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: > http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hank >> >> I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski >> drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to >> build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and >> add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a >> sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet > drive and a compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project >> un folds. >> >> Graham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes >> two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well >> suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find >> it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have >> been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go >> forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple >> part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a >> jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from >> a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> {color:#1F497D;} >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> {} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> {} >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have >> started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer >> sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored >> motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I >> want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will >> take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles >> are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are >> independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason >> for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power >> pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of >> using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of >> design. Graham >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 20:58:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:58:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <004f01cff17c$85e3eee0$91abcca0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1414371513.2712.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Tim, Thanks' I think it will be awesome, I have spent some time standing on the shore of different lakes wondering how I can get my sub in. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 8:25 PM Brilliant, Hank. Looking forward to seeing the results. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-26-14 5:51 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Douglas, Necessity is the mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find I can not launch.? It is time to get serious about L&R I would do track drive but it is to heavy. Hank? -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 PM Hank, I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage to? go where no one has gone before! Sounds like a psubber's? dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure you'll keep us? up-to-date with photos, won't you. ~ Douglas S. ?? On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear? axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive? it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act? as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp? Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the? cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub? on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the? water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I? am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 21:06:53 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 21:06:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <544D9188.9020003@archivale.com> References: <001901cff111$90cd5eb0$b2681c10$@net> <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001201cff12e$61aa63e0$24ff2ba0$@net> <544D8D9D.20802@archivale.com> <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> <544D9188.9020003@archivale.com> Message-ID: <024201cff182$4be6c090$e3b441b0$@rr.com> Read closer! Ken -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) I just finished reading Piccard's recollections of the Ben Franklin drift dive mission. I don't recall anything about compressing water. Marc On 10/27/2014 8:20 AM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. > Water is just not very compressible. > > Ken Martindale > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Compressing water will be quite some trick. > > Marc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: > http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hank >> >> I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski >> drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to >> build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy >> and add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not >> drive a sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building >> a larger jet > drive and a compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project >> un folds. >> >> Graham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive >> takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is >> well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will >> find it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. >> I have been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If >> you go forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a >> simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I >> have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet >> is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> {color:#1F497D;} >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> {} >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> {} >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have >> started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer >> sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored >> motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I >> want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which >> will take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The >> nozzles are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side >> are independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The >> reason for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one >> power pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment >> of using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> of design. Graham >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 22:08:23 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:08:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544D9048.3020305@archivale.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> <544D9048.3020305@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1414375703.86203.YahooMailNeo@web181201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On a thread on jet pumps for psubs, I will have to put by two cents in as I have one. I have been using a jet pump from a jet ski on my boat for about five years. Like any propulsion choice there are pros and cons. Like any major component on a psub, it is nice to have that component accomplish more than its primary task to save weight. I chose a jet pump for a number of reasons. As I have divers and swimmers around the surfaced boat all the time, I felt that the enclosed ducted impellor was much safer than an open prop and by utilizing an articulated jet housing, I get yaw and pitch control along with propulsion. With forward speed developed by the jet pump, ailerons give me roll control. One of the boat objectives was to be fast and maneuverable at higher speeds than is normally associated with psubs, i.e., I wanted to be able to fly underwater. I addressed some of the issues that Marc pointed out in the design process by converting the impellor to fit my application. The first was to re-pitch the impellor (more power, less speed), the second was to use a high speed double mechanical seal with glycol/water fluid as a barrier fluid crossing a heat exchanger to dissipate heat for this high speed shaft. Cavitation, has to date, not been a issue due to re-pitching the prop and also due to the fact that water depth suppresses the tendency to cavitate due to added ambient pressure (local pressure has to drop below the vapor pressure of water or less than 0.3 psia to cavitate at 70F). Having said all this, I am in the middle of replacing the jet pump propulsion unit with two Minn Kota 101 thrusters with custom Wageningen Propeller series Kort Nozzle 37 for the following reasons. The first is poor low speed maneuverability. While I was happy with the jet pump at high speeds, I found that for the inland lakes I frequent, I just can not take advantage of the speed and end up running as slower speeds were control surfaces are not all that effective. The second reason is that the drive train is noisy. While the double mechanical seal arrangement was fine for sealing the drive shaft, it was very noisy both internal and external. Also the main propulsion motor and controller were noisy as they were inside the pressure hull. I power up the boat in the water column and fish scatter. The third reason I am replacing the drive train has to do with the mechanical seal. I use and air over liquid reservoir that uses regulated air pressure that floats about 20 psi above ambient water pressure to pressurize the seal cooling system. I found that the seal would occasionally leak the barrier fluid into the interior of the boat (not ambient water). As the air/liquid reservoir only holds one quart of coolant, the small leak over several hours would occasionally drain the tank and then regulated air would bleed through the seal and into the boat causing the pressure into the boat to increase slowly. Because the drive motor, seal and reservoir were behind the pilot towards the aft the boat, maintenance on the drive train was difficult. So in the sprit of KISS, I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Surely isn't sure at all. And as speed through the water increases, the advantage, which might have rested with the open prop at lower speeds, definitely shifts to the jet. The jet's single biggest advantage, in fact, is being able to control inflow to the rotor to prevent cavitation. Marc On 10/27/2014 3:11 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 22:35:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:35:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] JT still here Message-ID: <206b7.2490e68.417f098f@aol.com> Hey Guys, Sorry I've mostly disappeared since Bellingham/Vancouver. In the days before the convention I had to start devoting a lot more time to caring for my 92-year-old mom and that continues to be the case. Several of you have written to ask if I was ok, and I really appreciate that. I'll look forward to participating more as soon as I can. I also really appreciate the way absolutely everyone pitched in and contributed to the success of Bellingham. It was great to see old friends and meet the new ones I had only known online. The generosity with which Dr. Phil shared his time, knowledge, and experience was phenomenal (besides treating the whole outfit to lunch!). Best regards, Jim Todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Oct 26 22:40:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:40:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: need i buy the plans to have a bill of materials for the k 350? i need know the material list to quote, some one have it' ? 2014-10-26 12:11 GMT-07:00 via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 3. Re: Water jets (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) > 4. Re: cart last days (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 5. Re: Water jets (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:15:18 -0700 > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Message-ID: > <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Graham, > A jet ski jet is gigantic for a psub. Jet ski's have 50hp and more, the > one I have is from a 750 cc two stroke engine. Mine has a 3 inch nozzle at > least maybe more. Jets are very bad for maneuvering, they have no grip in > the water like a prop. Yes fast ferries use them but they are owned by > governments, check the fuel tank size lol. I would do some reading about > jet viruses props. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and it is a fun > idea, I just don't think it will do what you imagine it will. I hope I am > wrong. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM > > > Hi Hank > > > I agree a jet drive is the > way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive > was to small and would only drive a small > craft. I intend to build a larger > jet drive > and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to > the > system the jet drive from a jet ski > would not drive a sub but I am certain I > can > overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a > compressor. > Thank you for your input and I > will keep you informed as the project un > folds. > > Graham > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 > 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no > subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine > jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two > times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet > drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a > shallow draft.? I think you will find it very > complicated > to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go > forward may I suggest you > start with a jet > drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The > impeller > tolerances are critical.? I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your > project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a > single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > ? > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 > 4 6 3 2 4;} > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 > 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > ??? > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > ??? > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > ??? > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > ??? {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > ??? {} > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > ??? {} > #yiv9417249292 > ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and > have > started to look at new designs I am? > interested in building a flyer sub and > have > come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor > drive this > will? enable my flyer to hover > and stop where ever I want. I have? designed > a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller? as an intake this will > force > water to the rear of the unit > ?where it is > compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will > take? > the water to four nozzles on the side > of? the craft. The nozzles are able to > turn > three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are > independent of one > another so? rolls will > be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will? ease the > maintenance and > increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am > interested > in the clubs thought of this > kind? of design. ?Graham > ? > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:16:37 -0700 > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Message-ID: > <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic at web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Graham, > message me at hankpronk at live.ca I am happy to send you some stuff. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM > > > Hi Hank > > > I agree a jet drive is the > way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive > was to small and would only drive a small > craft. I intend to build a larger > jet drive > and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to > the > system the jet drive from a jet ski > would not drive a sub but I am certain I > can > overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a > compressor. > Thank you for your input and I > will keep you informed as the project un > folds. > > Graham > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 > 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no > subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine > jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two > times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet > drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a > shallow draft.? I think you will find it very > complicated > to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go > forward may I suggest you > start with a jet > drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The > impeller > tolerances are critical.? I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your > project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a > single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: > "'Personal Submersibles General > Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > ? > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 > 4 6 3 2 4;} > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 > 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > ??? > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > ??? > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > ??? > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > ??? {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > ??? {} > ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 > {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > ??? {} > #yiv9417249292 > ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and > have > started to look at new designs I am? > interested in building a flyer sub and > have > come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor > drive this > will? enable my flyer to hover > and stop where ever I want. I have? designed > a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller? as an intake this will > force > water to the rear of the unit > ?where it is > compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will > take? > the water to four nozzles on the side > of? the craft. The nozzles are able to > turn > three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are > independent of one > another so? rolls will > be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will? ease the > maintenance and > increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am > interested > in the clubs thought of this > kind? of design. ?Graham > ? > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:16:38 -0000 > From: Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > Message-ID: <001801cff12f$d6f91a00$84eb4e00$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Marc de Piolenc > > I agree whole heartedly there is nothing inefficient about a water jet just > point it one way and add power and you will end up going the other way as > they say a=b= push. I will carry on with this and have a working craft at > the end to enjoy. > > Graham > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 14:11 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same > speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less > amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it > is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two > times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a > craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very > complicated > to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I > love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you > start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The > impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to > your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear > motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank -------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:25:40 -0700 > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > Message-ID: > <1414344340.13872.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Alec, > This project will take some time, and some experimenting. I am using a > 23cubic inch hyd motor to drive the cart. I am not sure that will do it, > so I am building it to take any motor. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 9:07 AM > > What > impresses me is that to most of us this would be a six month > or year-long project, but I would not be surprised to see > pictures in a day or two! > Alec > On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at > 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > I just > pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? > Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear > axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a > 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive > it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act > as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp > Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the > cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub > batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub > on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the > water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I > am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. > SWEET > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:11:26 -0400 > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > Message-ID: > ek1rwvwV2hi06emVXV1eRYa65qqR_uEoMwMkFDA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, > that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as > criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than > a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the > same > > speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less > > amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether > it > > is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >> > >> Graham, > >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > >> two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited > to > >> a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very > >> complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down > >> this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I > >> suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to > replicate. > >> The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I > >> could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider > >> a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > >> Hank -------------------------------------------- > >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > >> > >> #yiv9417249292 > >> #yiv9417249292 -- > >> > >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > >> #yiv9417249292 > >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > >> {color:#1F497D;} > >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > >> {} > >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > >> 72.0pt;} > >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > >> {} > >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > >> of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > >> interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > >> design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > >> enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > >> designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > >> as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > >> which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > >> the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > >> sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > >> rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > >> you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > >> ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > >> your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > >> of design. Graham > >> > >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20141026/c7827400/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 > ***************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 00:30:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 04:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> Message-ID: <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc,didn't want to have to Google again.Wiki.....?Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37?km/h; 23?mph), but as boat speed increases beyond this, the extra?hull?resistance generated by struts,?rudders, shafts (etc.) means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90?km/h; 60?mph).?Alan From: Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! Marc On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? ? There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are >? ? commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per >? ? horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at >? ? the same speed, certainly. > >? ? Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much >? ? less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. >? ? But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good >? ? results. > >? ? Marc de Piolenc > >? ? On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >? ? ? ? Graham, >? ? ? ? In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive >? ? ? ? takes two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive >? ? ? ? is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think >? ? ? ? you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very >? ? ? ? inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but >? ? ? ? abandoned it.? If you go forward may I suggest you start with a >? ? ? ? jet drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The impeller >? ? ? ? tolerances are critical.? I have a jet unit on the shelf I could >? ? ? ? donate to your project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would >? ? ? ? consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >? ? ? ? Hank ------------------------------__-------------- >? ? ? ? On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > wrote: > >? ? ? ? ? ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >? ? ? ? ? ? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? ? ? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 -- > >? ? ? ? ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >? ? ? ? ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 >? ? ? ? ? ? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >? ? ? ? ? ? span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {color:#1F497D;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {} >? ? ? ? ? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >? ? ? ? ? ? 72.0pt;} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? {} >? ? ? ? ? ? #yiv9417249292? Hi? I am near the end of my build >? ? ? ? ? ? of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >? ? ? ? ? ? interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >? ? ? ? ? ? design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >? ? ? ? ? ? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >? ? ? ? ? ? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >? ? ? ? ? ? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >? ? ? ? ? ? where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting >? ? ? ? ? ? which will take? the water to four nozzles on the side of >? ? ? ? ? ? the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >? ? ? ? ? ? sixty degrees? both side are independent of one another so >? ? ? ? ? ? rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >? ? ? ? ? ? you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >? ? ? ? ? ? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >? ? ? ? ? ? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >? ? ? ? ? ? of design.? Graham > >? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >? ? ? ? ? ? _________________________________________________ >? ? ? ? ? ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? ? ? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >? ? ? ? >? ? ? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles >? ? ? ? > > >? ? ? ? _________________________________________________ >? ? ? ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? ? ? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >? ? ? ? >? ? ? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles >? ? ? ? > > >? ? -- >? ? Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog >? ? >? ? Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog >? ? >? ? Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 >? ? >? ? Translations (BeWords profile): >? ? http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc >? ? >? ? Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >? ? _________________________________________________ >? ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org >? ? >? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles >? ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 01:35:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:35:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> A quick weigh-n on water jets. Years ago (many) I talked to the pilots of the Cousteau ?Puce de Mer? (Sea Fleas) And the famous ?SP 350, Diving Saucer? about the efficiency of their water jet propulsion units. They confirmed that they were very ?weak? in a comedic way . . .they had a phrase in French which made the two Sea Flea pilots break out laughing ? my trusty translator also laughed and then tried to keep a straight face as he said ?they are saying that the things that you ask about are not strong enough to ? pull a penis out of a bucket of lard?! Some years later we tried a high volume water pump coupled with a duct engineered to work most efficiently with the pump. We hooked it up to a fixed pad eye inside our large test tank and used a spring scale to determine the bollard pull. Our froggie friends were quite right: using a conventional prop powered with exactly the same horsepower gave a large increase in bollard pull. From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:30 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Marc, didn't want to have to Google again. Wiki..... Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as boat speed increases beyond this, the extra hull resistance generated by struts, rudders, shafts (etc.) means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90 km/h; 60 mph). Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! Marc On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion. > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 02:07:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Bob Travis via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 23:07:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would recommend that you purchase the plans. Each K boat is going to be a little different and I think it would be extremely difficult to build one with just a parts list. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 26, 2014, at 7:40 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > need i buy the plans to have a bill of materials for the k 350? i need know the material list to quote, some one have it' ? > > 2014-10-26 12:11 GMT-07:00 via Personal_Submersibles : >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 2. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 3. Re: Water jets (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) >> 4. Re: cart last days (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 5. Re: Water jets (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:15:18 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> Message-ID: >> <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Graham, >> A jet ski jet is gigantic for a psub. Jet ski's have 50hp and more, the one I have is from a 750 cc two stroke engine. Mine has a 3 inch nozzle at least maybe more. Jets are very bad for maneuvering, they have no grip in the water like a prop. Yes fast ferries use them but they are owned by governments, check the fuel tank size lol. I would do some reading about jet viruses props. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and it is a fun idea, I just don't think it will do what you imagine it will. I hope I am wrong. >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi Hank >> >> >> I agree a jet drive is the >> way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive >> was to small and would only drive a small >> craft. I intend to build a larger >> jet drive >> and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to >> the >> system the jet drive from a jet ski >> would not drive a sub but I am certain I >> can >> overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a >> compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I >> will keep you informed as the project un >> folds. >> >> Graham >> >> >> -----Original >> Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 >> 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no >> subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine >> jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two >> times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet >> drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a >> shallow draft.? I think you will find it very >> complicated >> to control and it will be very >> inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go >> forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet >> drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The >> impeller >> tolerances are critical.? I have a >> jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your >> project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a >> single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> Subject: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: >> "'Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> ? >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 >> 4 6 3 2 4;} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 >> 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> ??? >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> ??? >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> ??? >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> ??? {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> ??? {} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> ??? {} >> #yiv9417249292 >> ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and >> have >> started to look at new designs I am? >> interested in building a flyer sub and >> have >> come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor >> drive this >> will? enable my flyer to hover >> and stop where ever I want. I have? designed >> a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller? as an intake this will >> force >> water to the rear of the unit >> ?where it is >> compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will >> take? >> the water to four nozzles on the side >> of? the craft. The nozzles are able to >> turn >> three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are >> independent of one >> another so? rolls will >> be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor source and one power >> pack this will? ease the >> maintenance and >> increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am >> interested >> in the clubs thought of this >> kind? of design. ?Graham >> ? >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:16:37 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> Message-ID: >> <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic at web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Graham, >> message me at hankpronk at live.ca I am happy to send you some stuff. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi Hank >> >> >> I agree a jet drive is the >> way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive >> was to small and would only drive a small >> craft. I intend to build a larger >> jet drive >> and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to >> the >> system the jet drive from a jet ski >> would not drive a sub but I am certain I >> can >> overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a >> compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I >> will keep you informed as the project un >> folds. >> >> Graham >> >> >> -----Original >> Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 >> 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no >> subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine >> jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two >> times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet >> drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a >> shallow draft.? I think you will find it very >> complicated >> to control and it will be very >> inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go >> forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet >> drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The >> impeller >> tolerances are critical.? I have a >> jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your >> project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a >> single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> Subject: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: >> "'Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> ? >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 >> 4 6 3 2 4;} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 >> 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> ??? >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> ??? >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> ??? >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> ??? {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> ??? {} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> ??? {} >> #yiv9417249292 >> ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and >> have >> started to look at new designs I am? >> interested in building a flyer sub and >> have >> come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor >> drive this >> will? enable my flyer to hover >> and stop where ever I want. I have? designed >> a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller? as an intake this will >> force >> water to the rear of the unit >> ?where it is >> compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will >> take? >> the water to four nozzles on the side >> of? the craft. The nozzles are able to >> turn >> three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are >> independent of one >> another so? rolls will >> be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor source and one power >> pack this will? ease the >> maintenance and >> increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am >> interested >> in the clubs thought of this >> kind? of design. ?Graham >> ? >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:16:38 -0000 >> From: Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> Message-ID: <001801cff12f$d6f91a00$84eb4e00$@net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Hi Marc de Piolenc >> >> I agree whole heartedly there is nothing inefficient about a water jet just >> point it one way and add power and you will end up going the other way as >> they say a=b= push. I will carry on with this and have a working craft at >> the end to enjoy. >> >> Graham >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 14:11 >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> >> There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are >> commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per >> horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same >> speed, certainly. >> >> Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less >> amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it >> is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. >> >> Marc de Piolenc >> >> On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > Graham, >> > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two >> times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very complicated >> to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller >> tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> > Hank -------------------------------------------- >> > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> > >> > #yiv9417249292 >> > #yiv9417249292 -- >> > >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> > #yiv9417249292 >> > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> > {color:#1F497D;} >> > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> > {} >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> > 72.0pt;} >> > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> > {} >> > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build >> > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >> > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >> > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >> > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >> > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >> > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of >> > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >> > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so >> > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >> > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >> > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> > of design. Graham >> > >> > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: >> http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:25:40 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days >> Message-ID: >> <1414344340.13872.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Alec, >> This project will take some time, and some experimenting. I am using a 23cubic inch hyd motor to drive the cart. I am not sure that will do it, so I am building it to take any motor. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 9:07 AM >> >> What >> impresses me is that to most of us this would be a six month >> or year-long project, but I would not be surprised to see >> pictures in a day or two! >> Alec >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at >> 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> I just >> pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? >> Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear >> axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a >> 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive >> it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act >> as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp >> Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the >> cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub >> batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub >> on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the >> water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I >> am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. >> SWEET >> >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:11:26 -0400 >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is >> considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, >> that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as >> criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than >> a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get >> entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are >> > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per >> > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the same >> > speed, certainly. >> > >> > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less >> > amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether it >> > is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. >> > >> > Marc de Piolenc >> > >> > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Graham, >> >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes >> >> two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to >> >> a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very >> >> complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down >> >> this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I >> >> suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. >> >> The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I >> >> could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider >> >> a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> >> {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> {} >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> >> 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> >> {} >> >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build >> >> of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >> >> interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >> >> design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >> >> enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >> >> designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >> >> as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> >> which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of >> >> the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >> >> sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so >> >> rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> >> you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >> >> ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >> >> your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> >> of design. Graham >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 >> ***************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 05:46:54 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 05:46:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods Message-ID: <6a51d.449c72b6.417f6e8e@aol.com> Cliff, Since you are replacing the jet drive with a pair of fixed 101's, what are you doing to achieve low/high speed maneuverability? Did I misunderstand about your main thrusters being fixed? Are you incorporating rudders, dive planes, additional maneuvering motors? Best regards, Jim T. Cliff wrote: ... I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 06:10:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 10:10:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <1414371513.2712.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <004f01cff17c$85e3eee0$91abcca0$@telus.net> <1414371513.2712.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds good Hank. Looking forward to seeing it. James On 27 October 2014 00:58, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Tim, > Thanks' I think it will be awesome, I have spent some time standing on the > shore of different lakes wondering how I can get my sub in. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 8:25 PM > > Brilliant, Hank. > > Looking forward to seeing the > results. > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: October-26-14 > 5:51 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart > last days > > > Douglas, > Necessity is the > mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find > I > can not launch. It is time to get > serious about L&R I would do track drive > but it is to heavy. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 > PM > > Hank, > > I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage > to go where no one has > gone before! Sounds > like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure > you'll > keep us up-to-date with photos, > won't you. ~ Douglas S. > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at > 6:21 > PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > I just > pushed my launch cart into the shop for the > last time. Tomorrow it will be > reborn. > The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd > cylinder, > the front is getting a > 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic > motor to drive it. The cart > then gets > two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks. On > top of > one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp > Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power > and steer the cart, as well as a 24v > alternator to charge my sub > batteries. I > will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down > the > boat ramp or beach or whatever into > the water. The cart will stay anchored > in the water, until I am ready to put the sub > on and drive back to my > trailer. > SWEET > > > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 06:45:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 10:45:57 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Robert. If you are seriously considering building a K boat, you'll definitely need the plans. There are an awful lot of parts you'll need and it will depend on how you wish to do each bit. There's a lot of choice with motors, valves, pipework etc. As a rough idea, I think my boat has cost ?30,000. That includes machines I needed to buy, plus t I spared no expense and made quite a lot of modifications. Hope that helps Regards James On 27 October 2014 06:07, Bob Travis via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I would recommend that you purchase the plans. Each K boat is going to be > a little different and I think it would be extremely difficult to build one > with just a parts list. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 26, 2014, at 7:40 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > need i buy the plans to have a bill of materials for the k 350? i need > know the material list to quote, some one have it' ? > > 2014-10-26 12:11 GMT-07:00 via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 2. Re: (no subject) (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 3. Re: Water jets (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) >> 4. Re: cart last days (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 5. Re: Water jets (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:15:18 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> Message-ID: >> <1414336518.83309.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Graham, >> A jet ski jet is gigantic for a psub. Jet ski's have 50hp and more, the >> one I have is from a 750 cc two stroke engine. Mine has a 3 inch nozzle at >> least maybe more. Jets are very bad for maneuvering, they have no grip in >> the water like a prop. Yes fast ferries use them but they are owned by >> governments, check the fuel tank size lol. I would do some reading about >> jet viruses props. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and it is a fun >> idea, I just don't think it will do what you imagine it will. I hope I am >> wrong. >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi Hank >> >> >> I agree a jet drive is the >> way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive >> was to small and would only drive a small >> craft. I intend to build a larger >> jet drive >> and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to >> the >> system the jet drive from a jet ski >> would not drive a sub but I am certain I >> can >> overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a >> compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I >> will keep you informed as the project un >> folds. >> >> Graham >> >> >> -----Original >> Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 >> 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no >> subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine >> jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two >> times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet >> drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a >> shallow draft.? I think you will find it very >> complicated >> to control and it will be very >> inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go >> forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet >> drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The >> impeller >> tolerances are critical.? I have a >> jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your >> project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a >> single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> Subject: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: >> "'Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> ? >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 >> 4 6 3 2 4;} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 >> 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> ??? >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> ??? >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> ??? >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> ??? {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> ??? {} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> ??? {} >> #yiv9417249292 >> ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and >> have >> started to look at new designs I am? >> interested in building a flyer sub and >> have >> come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor >> drive this >> will? enable my flyer to hover >> and stop where ever I want. I have? designed >> a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller? as an intake this will >> force >> water to the rear of the unit >> ?where it is >> compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will >> take? >> the water to four nozzles on the side >> of? the craft. The nozzles are able to >> turn >> three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are >> independent of one >> another so? rolls will >> be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor source and one power >> pack this will? ease the >> maintenance and >> increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am >> interested >> in the clubs thought of this >> kind? of design. ?Graham >> ? >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:16:37 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> Message-ID: >> <1414336597.16836.YahooMailBasic at web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Graham, >> message me at hankpronk at live.ca I am happy to send you some stuff. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:06 AM >> >> >> Hi Hank >> >> >> I agree a jet drive is the >> way to go did you not think that a jet ski drive >> was to small and would only drive a small >> craft. I intend to build a larger >> jet drive >> and compress the water. This will be easy and add power to >> the >> system the jet drive from a jet ski >> would not drive a sub but I am certain I >> can >> overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a >> compressor. >> Thank you for your input and I >> will keep you informed as the project un >> folds. >> >> Graham >> >> >> -----Original >> Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 >> 12:42 >> To: Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no >> subject) >> >> >> Graham, >> In the world of marine >> jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes two >> times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet >> drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a >> shallow draft.? I think you will find it very >> complicated >> to control and it will be very >> inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go >> forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet >> drive.? It is not a simple part to replicate.? The >> impeller >> tolerances are critical.? I have a >> jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your >> project.? The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a >> single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> Subject: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> To: >> "'Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion'" >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> ? >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 >> 4 6 3 2 4;} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 >> 4 3 2 4;} >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> ??? >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> ??? >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> ??? >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> ??? {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> ??? {} >> ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 >> {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> ??? {} >> #yiv9417249292 >> ?Hi? ?I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and >> have >> started to look at new designs I am? >> interested in building a flyer sub and >> have >> come up with a? design which will include a vectored motor >> drive this >> will? enable my flyer to hover >> and stop where ever I want. I have? designed >> a motor unit which will drive a fan type >> propeller? as an intake this will >> force >> water to the rear of the unit >> ?where it is >> compressed ?then it is forced into ducting? which will >> take? >> the water to four nozzles on the side >> of? the craft. The nozzles are able to >> turn >> three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are >> independent of one >> another so? rolls will >> be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> you only need one motor source and one power >> pack this will? ease the >> maintenance and >> increase the enjoyment of using? your sub. I am >> interested >> in the clubs thought of this >> kind? of design. ?Graham >> ? >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:16:38 -0000 >> From: Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> Message-ID: <001801cff12f$d6f91a00$84eb4e00$@net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Hi Marc de Piolenc >> >> I agree whole heartedly there is nothing inefficient about a water jet >> just >> point it one way and add power and you will end up going the other way as >> they say a=b= push. I will carry on with this and have a working craft at >> the end to enjoy. >> >> Graham >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: 26 October 2014 14:11 >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> >> There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are >> commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per >> horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the >> same >> speed, certainly. >> >> Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less >> amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But whether >> it >> is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. >> >> Marc de Piolenc >> >> On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > Graham, >> > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes >> two >> times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well suited to a >> craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very >> complicated >> to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down this road, I >> love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you >> start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The >> impeller >> tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could donate to >> your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would consider a single rear >> motor on a full gimbal. >> > Hank -------------------------------------------- >> > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> >> > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> > >> > #yiv9417249292 >> > #yiv9417249292 -- >> > >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> > #yiv9417249292 >> > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> > {color:#1F497D;} >> > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> > {} >> > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> > 72.0pt;} >> > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> > {} >> > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build >> > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >> > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >> > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >> > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >> > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >> > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of >> > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >> > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so >> > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >> > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >> > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> > of design. Graham >> > >> > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: >> http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:25:40 -0700 >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days >> Message-ID: >> <1414344340.13872.YahooMailBasic at web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> Alec, >> This project will take some time, and some experimenting. I am using a >> 23cubic inch hyd motor to drive the cart. I am not sure that will do it, >> so I am building it to take any motor. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 9:07 AM >> >> What >> impresses me is that to most of us this would be a six month >> or year-long project, but I would not be surprised to see >> pictures in a day or two! >> Alec >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at >> 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> I just >> pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time.? >> Tomorrow it will be reborn.? The cart is getting a new rear >> axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a >> 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive >> it.? The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act >> as ballast tanks.? On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp >> Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the >> cart,? as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub >> batteries.? I will be able to drive the cart with the sub >> on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the >> water.? The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I >> am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. >> SWEET >> >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:11:26 -0400 >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets >> Message-ID: >> > ek1rwvwV2hi06emVXV1eRYa65qqR_uEoMwMkFDA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is >> considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the jets, >> that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant as >> criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than >> a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get >> entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are >> > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per >> > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at the >> same >> > speed, certainly. >> > >> > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much less >> > amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. But >> whether it >> > is "well known" or not, good design will produce good results. >> > >> > Marc de Piolenc >> > >> > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Graham, >> >> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes >> >> two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well >> suited to >> >> a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find it very >> >> complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have been >> down >> >> this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go forward may >> I >> >> suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple part to >> replicate. >> >> The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I >> >> could donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would >> consider >> >> a single rear motor on a full gimbal. >> >> Hank -------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM >> >> >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 -- >> >> >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 >> >> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> >> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 >> >> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >> >> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >> >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >> >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 >> >> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >> >> {color:#1F497D;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >> >> {} >> >> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt >> >> 72.0pt;} >> >> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >> >> {} >> >> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build >> >> of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am >> >> interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a >> >> design which will include a vectored motor drive this will >> >> enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have >> >> designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller >> >> as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >> >> where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting >> >> which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of >> >> the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and >> >> sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so >> >> rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is >> >> you only need one motor source and one power pack this will >> >> ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using >> >> your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind >> >> of design. Graham >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20141026/c7827400/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36 >> ***************************************************** >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 11:10:25 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:10:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] JT still here In-Reply-To: <206b7.2490e68.417f098f@aol.com> References: <206b7.2490e68.417f098f@aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, thanks to YOU for your efforts! I'm not sure I properly thanked you (and others) for arranging the convention. Steve On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:35 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hey Guys, > > Sorry I've mostly disappeared since Bellingham/Vancouver. In the days > before the convention I had to start devoting a lot more time to caring for > my 92-year-old mom and that continues to be the case. Several of you have > written to ask if I was ok, and I really appreciate that. I'll look > forward to participating more as soon as I can. > > I also really appreciate the way absolutely everyone pitched in and > contributed to the success of Bellingham. It was great to see old friends > and meet the new ones I had only known online. The generosity with which > Dr. Phil shared his time, knowledge, and experience was phenomenal (besides > treating the whole outfit to lunch!). > > Best regards, > Jim Todd > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 12:43:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 16:43:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trustfire Lights Message-ID: Hi All Alec, just out of interest, remember a while ago you mentioned that your trustfire lights had suffered severe galvanic corrosion? Well, my brother bought one for scuba diving when I got all mine and after a dive yesterday reported that it was giving him a mild electric shock through the casing and by the end of his dive, all the paint had come off. Maybe these lights have a fault or something? just a thought. Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 12:56:51 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:56:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trustfire Lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! That is certainly interesting. BTW did I ever pass you the information on what I replaced them with? Some lights of a brand called "Buyers". I can look up the part number if you like. So far so good, and they've been to 220 feet. Not yet in sea water, but as the case is not used for grounding in these, I think they'll be fine. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 12:43 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All > > Alec, just out of interest, remember a while ago you mentioned that your > trustfire lights had suffered severe galvanic corrosion? Well, my brother > bought one for scuba diving when I got all mine and after a dive yesterday > reported that it was giving him a mild electric shock through the casing > and by the end of his dive, all the paint had come off. Maybe these lights > have a fault or something? > > just a thought. > Regards > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 13:08:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:08:34 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trustfire Lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alec, I'd be interested to see what you've used instead. They sound good. I haven't really used mine in anger as I haven't done any night or dark diving. I have only switched them on for a minute or so, im too worried they will dissolve in front of my very eyes! I suppose i'll have to try them properly at some point. Regards James On 27 October 2014 16:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow! That is certainly interesting. BTW did I ever pass you the > information on what I replaced them with? Some lights of a brand called > "Buyers". I can look up the part number if you like. So far so good, and > they've been to 220 feet. Not yet in sea water, but as the case is not used > for grounding in these, I think they'll be fine. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 12:43 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> Alec, just out of interest, remember a while ago you mentioned that your >> trustfire lights had suffered severe galvanic corrosion? Well, my brother >> bought one for scuba diving when I got all mine and after a dive yesterday >> reported that it was giving him a mild electric shock through the casing >> and by the end of his dive, all the paint had come off. Maybe these lights >> have a fault or something? >> >> just a thought. >> Regards >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 09:26:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:26:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods In-Reply-To: <6a51d.449c72b6.417f6e8e@aol.com> References: <6a51d.449c72b6.417f6e8e@aol.com> Message-ID: Two aft thrusters that are fixed horizontally are used for forward, reverses and yaw control. To fixed vertical thrusters located in wings for vertical depth station keeping, pitch and roll control. Each will have a dedicated minn Kota motor controller. 0-5vdc analog output signal to each motor controller will come through PLC analog output module. A analog input module of the PLC will accept signals from a 3-axis joystick and a foot control. Sent from my iPad > On Oct 27, 2014, at 4:46 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Since you are replacing the jet drive with a pair of fixed 101's, what are you doing to achieve low/high speed maneuverability? Did I misunderstand about your main thrusters being fixed? Are you incorporating rudders, dive planes, additional maneuvering motors? > Best regards, > Jim T. > > Cliff wrote: > ... I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 15:48:02 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:48:02 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> Message-ID: <3F6F5C2A-51EB-4FB2-92B9-460BD84200C5@yahoo.com> Thanks for that insight into the nuances of French culture Phil. I was telling a couple about your Exosuit & early connection through art, with Bruce Beasley, when the email came through. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/10/2014, at 6:35 pm, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > A quick weigh-n on water jets. Years ago (many) I talked to the pilots of the Cousteau ?Puce de Mer? (Sea Fleas) And the famous ?SP 350, Diving Saucer? about the efficiency of their water jet propulsion units. They confirmed that they were very ?weak? in a comedic way . . .they had a phrase in French which made the two Sea Flea pilots break out laughing ? my trusty translator also laughed and then tried to keep a straight face as he said ?they are saying that the things that you ask about are not strong enough to ? pull a penis out of a bucket of lard?! > Some years later we tried a high volume water pump coupled with a duct engineered to work most efficiently with the pump. We hooked it up to a fixed pad eye inside our large test tank and used a spring scale to determine the bollard pull. Our froggie friends were quite right: using a conventional prop powered with exactly the same horsepower gave a large increase in bollard pull. > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:30 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > Marc, > didn't want to have to Google again. > Wiki..... Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as boat speed increases beyond this, the extra hull resistance generated by struts, rudders, shafts (etc.) means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90 km/h; 60 mph). > Alan > > > From: Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. > > As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! > > Marc > > On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional propulsion. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > > the same speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > > results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > > > Translations (BeWords profile): > > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 17:05:14 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:05:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414375703.86203.YahooMailNeo@web181201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> <544D9048.3020305@archivale.com> <1414375703.86203.YahooMailNeo@web181201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544eb391.05b4440a.48d1.1e3c@mx.google.com> Hi Cliff, Have you looked at the Rice nozzle as opposed to the Kort. Supposed to have advantages. Interested in your seal experience. I am using 2 mechanical seals with Oil between them at 5 psi above ambient pressure but using a spring loading rather than air over oil/water. The torque per seal is very high comparatively. Using carbon/silicon caride faces. What were the seals you used? And what diameter. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 27 October 2014 3:08 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets On a thread on jet pumps for psubs, I will have to put by two cents in as I have one. I have been using a jet pump from a jet ski on my boat for about five years. Like any propulsion choice there are pros and cons. Like any major component on a psub, it is nice to have that component accomplish more than its primary task to save weight. I chose a jet pump for a number of reasons. As I have divers and swimmers around the surfaced boat all the time, I felt that the enclosed ducted impellor was much safer than an open prop and by utilizing an articulated jet housing, I get yaw and pitch control along with propulsion. With forward speed developed by the jet pump, ailerons give me roll control. One of the boat objectives was to be fast and maneuverable at higher speeds than is normally associated with psubs, i.e., I wanted to be able to fly underwater. I addressed some of the issues that Marc pointed out in the design process by converting the impellor to fit my application. The first was to re-pitch the impellor (more power, less speed), the second was to use a high speed double mechanical seal with glycol/water fluid as a barrier fluid crossing a heat exchanger to dissipate heat for this high speed shaft. Cavitation, has to date, not been a issue due to re-pitching the prop and also due to the fact that water depth suppresses the tendency to cavitate due to added ambient pressure (local pressure has to drop below the vapor pressure of water or less than 0.3 psia to cavitate at 70F). Having said all this, I am in the middle of replacing the jet pump propulsion unit with two Minn Kota 101 thrusters with custom Wageningen Propeller series Kort Nozzle 37 for the following reasons. The first is poor low speed maneuverability. While I was happy with the jet pump at high speeds, I found that for the inland lakes I frequent, I just can not take advantage of the speed and end up running as slower speeds were control surfaces are not all that effective. The second reason is that the drive train is noisy. While the double mechanical seal arrangement was fine for sealing the drive shaft, it was very noisy both internal and external. Also the main propulsion motor and controller were noisy as they were inside the pressure hull. I power up the boat in the water column and fish scatter. The third reason I am replacing the drive train has to do with the mechanical seal. I use and air over liquid reservoir that uses regulated air pressure that floats about 20 psi above ambient water pressure to pressurize the seal cooling system. I found that the seal would occasionally leak the barrier fluid into the interior of the boat (not ambient water). As the air/liquid reservoir only holds one quart of coolant, the small leak over several hours would occasionally drain the tank and then regulated air would bleed through the seal and into the boat causing the pressure into the boat to increase slowly. Because the drive motor, seal and reservoir were behind the pilot towards the aft the boat, maintenance on the drive train was difficult. So in the sprit of KISS, I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. From: Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Surely isn't sure at all. And as speed through the water increases, the advantage, which might have rested with the open prop at lower speeds, definitely shifts to the jet. The jet's single biggest advantage, in fact, is being able to control inflow to the rotor to prevent cavitation. Marc On 10/27/2014 3:11 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10625 (20141027) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10628 (20141027) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 17:34:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:34:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge Message-ID: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 17:48:01 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:48:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What a beauty, shame Snoopy hasn't space for such a big one. I wonder if the light green face is phosphorescent. Someone with a K-350 should snap this up! On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Vance, > There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. > Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 17:56:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:56:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Vance, > There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:13:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:13:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Vance, >There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. >Hank _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:15:35 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:15:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, shoot it is gone, did you buy it Alec? Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Vance, >There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. >Hank _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:23:31 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 18:23:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D1C04BC5E5E09E-1324-199CF@webmail-va064.sysops.aol.com> Hank, That's exactly what I put in. Must have been gone while I was there, too. I actually have a 350' gauge from Perry, new in the box. It reads in FSW, which means that it was a primary panel gauge, probably for a decompression chamber, or possibly for a system panel mount. Perry built a bunch of those chambers over the years, so I guess there are spares seeping onto the market. I'm planning on using it in my K-boat (isolated for the 500' test dive, of course). Unlike the Pisces gauges, these only go around once. After that, they make that expensive sproing noise. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 27, 2014 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge Vance, shoot it is gone, did you buy it Alec? Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Vance, There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:28:40 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:28:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <8D1C04BC5E5E09E-1324-199CF@webmail-va064.sysops.aol.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D1C04BC5E5E09E-1324-199CF@webmail-va064.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1414448920.96994.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I knew you got the last one from ebay, thought it was for 600 ft though. I was really just curious why only 350 feet but it must have been for a chamber like you said. I am also surprised how big they are. Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:23 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, That's exactly what I put in. Must have been gone while I was there, too. I actually have a 350' gauge from Perry, new in the box. It reads in FSW, which means that it was a primary panel gauge, probably for a decompression chamber, or possibly for a system panel mount. Perry built a bunch of those chambers over the years, so I guess there are spares seeping onto the market. I'm planning on using it in my K-boat (isolated for the 500' test dive, of course). Unlike the Pisces gauges, these only go around once. After that, they make that expensive sproing noise. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 27, 2014 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge Vance, shoot it is gone, did you buy it Alec? Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item Hank On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Vance, >There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. >Hank _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:43:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:43:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods Message-ID: <20141027154304.52EF4BB1@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 18:58:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:58:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods In-Reply-To: <20141027154304.52EF4BB1@m0048139.ppops.net> References: <20141027154304.52EF4BB1@m0048139.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1414450727.48038.YahooMailNeo@web181206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Automationdirect http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Programmable_Controllers/DirectLogic_Series_PLCs_(Micro_to_Small,_Brick_-a-_Modular)/DirectLogic_205_(Micro_Modular_PLC) You use a laptop to write ladder logic that is downloaded to PLC. This company has fantastic tech support that will bring you through specifying what modules to buys, pointing you to you tube tutorials and helping you debug the ladder logic if you get stuck. There is a bit of a learning curve but if you can write basic, you can write ladder logic. Cliff ________________________________ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods Cliff, What brand of PLC are you using? Can you program it in basic? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Clifford Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:26:49 -0500 Two aft thrusters that are fixed horizontally are used for forward, reverses and yaw control. To fixed vertical thrusters located in wings for vertical depth station keeping, pitch and roll control. Each will have a dedicated minn Kota motor controller. 0-5vdc analog output signal to each motor controller will come through PLC analog output module. A analog input module of the PLC will accept signals from a 3-axis joystick and a foot control. Sent from my iPad On Oct 27, 2014, at 4:46 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, >Since you are replacing the jet drive with a pair of fixed 101's, what are you doing to achieve low/high speed maneuverability? Did I misunderstand about your main thrusters being fixed? Are you incorporating rudders, dive planes, additional maneuvering motors? >Best regards, >Jim T. > >Cliff wrote: >... I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 19:17:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 16:17:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544eb391.05b4440a.48d1.1e3c@mx.google.com> References: <1414327298.14272.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544D00F6.8020306@archivale.com> <544D9048.3020305@archivale.com> <1414375703.86203.YahooMailNeo@web181201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <544eb391.05b4440a.48d1.1e3c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1414451837.4588.YahooMailNeo@web181206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Just got back from your neck of the woods. How about that rugby match All Blacks vs Wallabies. All Blacks managed to win but only in the last 3 seconds and it was quite a competitive match! I casually looked at Rice nozzles vs Kort but have not digested the differences enough to have an opinion. I have the technical details on the Kort nozzle and software to analyze so am sticking with the Kort. They are also in the machine shop so don't want to change horses in the middle of the stream. My current installation uses a 1" diameter shaft and an off the shelf cartridge seal. The seals were both Si carbide. While the seal worked fine for many years, it was just noisy and where it was located made it hard to remove for service. I abandoning the while shaft seal issue by moving to thrusters. Cliff Cliff Redus Redus Engineering USA mobile: 830-931-1280 cliffordredus at sbcglobal.com ________________________________ From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Hi Cliff, Have you looked at the Rice nozzle as opposed to the Kort. Supposed to have advantages. Interested in your seal experience. I am using 2 mechanical seals with Oil between them at 5 psi above ambient pressure but using a spring loading rather than air over oil/water. The torque per seal is very high comparatively. Using carbon/silicon caride faces. What were the seals you used? And what diameter. Regards, Hugh From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 27 October 2014 3:08 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets On a thread on jet pumps for psubs, I will have to put by two cents in as I have one. I have been using a jet pump from a jet ski on my boat for about five years. Like any propulsion choice there are pros and cons. Like any major component on a psub, it is nice to have that component accomplish more than its primary task to save weight. I chose a jet pump for a number of reasons. As I have divers and swimmers around the surfaced boat all the time, I felt that the enclosed ducted impellor was much safer than an open prop and by utilizing an articulated jet housing, I get yaw and pitch control along with propulsion. With forward speed developed by the jet pump, ailerons give me roll control. One of the boat objectives was to be fast and maneuverable at higher speeds than is normally associated with psubs, i.e., I wanted to be able to fly underwater. I addressed some of the issues that Marc pointed out in the design process by converting the impellor to fit my application. The first was to re-pitch the impellor (more power, less speed), the second was to use a high speed double mechanical seal with glycol/water fluid as a barrier fluid crossing a heat exchanger to dissipate heat for this high speed shaft. Cavitation, has to date, not been a issue due to re-pitching the prop and also due to the fact that water depth suppresses the tendency to cavitate due to added ambient pressure (local pressure has to drop below the vapor pressure of water or less than 0.3 psia to cavitate at 70F). Having said all this, I am in the middle of replacing the jet pump propulsion unit with two Minn Kota 101 thrusters with custom Wageningen Propeller series Kort Nozzle 37 for the following reasons. The first is poor low speed maneuverability. While I was happy with the jet pump at high speeds, I found that for the inland lakes I frequent, I just can not take advantage of the speed and end up running as slower speeds were control surfaces are not all that effective. The second reason is that the drive train is noisy. While the double mechanical seal arrangement was fine for sealing the drive shaft, it was very noisy both internal and external. Also the main propulsion motor and controller were noisy as they were inside the pressure hull. I power up the boat in the water column and fish scatter. The third reason I am replacing the drive train has to do with the mechanical seal. I use and air over liquid reservoir that uses regulated air pressure that floats about 20 psi above ambient water pressure to pressurize the seal cooling system. I found that the seal would occasionally leak the barrier fluid into the interior of the boat (not ambient water). As the air/liquid reservoir only holds one quart of coolant, the small leak over several hours would occasionally drain the tank and then regulated air would bleed through the seal and into the boat causing the pressure into the boat to increase slowly. Because the drive motor, seal and reservoir were behind the pilot towards the aft the boat, maintenance on the drive train was difficult. So in the sprit of KISS, I am simplifying the propulsion and maneuvering system by going to fixed thrusters with Kort nozzles and Minn Kota motors. While I do drop the boat speed dramatically, I get a simple propulsion and maneuvering system that is quite and easy to maintain. In a few months, I will let you know if I was successful. From:Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets Surely isn't sure at all. And as speed through the water increases, the advantage, which might have rested with the open prop at lower speeds, definitely shifts to the jet. The jet's single biggest advantage, in fact, is being able to control inflow to the rotor to prevent cavitation. Marc On 10/27/2014 3:11 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > the same speed, certainly. > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > results. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > of design. Graham > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _________________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10625 (20141027) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10628 (20141027) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10628 (20141027) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 19:29:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:29:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414448920.96994.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D1C04BC5E5E09E-1324-199CF@webmail-va064.sysops.aol.com> <1414448920.96994.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've always assumed the size was a requirement for the bourdon tube and gear set. Plus you need a reasonably large scale to see incremental changes. Mine has an 8" face and I think the Pisces used 16". More modern tech makes for dependable digital outputs, of course. Nice, clean, light and as small as you like. And cheap, too. Vance Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 27, 2014, at 6:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I knew you got the last one from ebay, thought it was for 600 ft though. > I was really just curious why only 350 feet but it must have been for a chamber like you said. > I am also surprised how big they are. > Hank > > > On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:23 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > That's exactly what I put in. Must have been gone while I was there, too. I actually have a 350' gauge from Perry, new in the box. It reads in FSW, which means that it was a primary panel gauge, probably for a decompression chamber, or possibly for a system panel mount. Perry built a bunch of those chambers over the years, so I guess there are spares seeping onto the market. I'm planning on using it in my K-boat (isolated for the 500' test dive, of course). Unlike the Pisces gauges, these only go around once. After that, they make that expensive sproing noise. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Oct 27, 2014 6:15 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge > > Vance, > shoot it is gone, did you buy it Alec? > Hank > > > On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item > Hank > > > On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Vance, >> There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Oct 27 19:30:27 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:30:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] perry gauge In-Reply-To: <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414445681.96535.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <258549D5-F3D9-40A6-B359-E3B90DF48093@AOL.com> <1414447997.18550.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1414448135.35091.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48302118-570B-41B9-9272-C51DCC902403@gmail.com> I'm innocent this time, it wouldn't fit in Snoopy and is too shallow for the project sub. > On Oct 27, 2014, at 6:15 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Vance, > shoot it is gone, did you buy it Alec? > Hank > > > On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > just put submarine depth gauge in the search box, it is about the 3rd item > Hank > > > On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:56 PM, Vance Bradley via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I can't ever find anything on eBay. How is it listed? Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Vance, >> There is a depth gauge on ebay , an original old stock Perry gauge. Curious though, it is only for 350 feet depth. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 00:35:53 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 04:35:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> References: <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> Message-ID: <1146526052.742838.1414470953344.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10057.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ken,haven't heard from you for a while.I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster.Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm.The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm ?are the RC outrunner motors thatyou might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor &running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushedcounterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this.Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operatingon around 48V.?Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks.Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple > part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > >? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > >? #yiv9417249292 >? #yiv9417249292 -- > >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >? #yiv9417249292 >? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >? ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >? ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >? ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >? ??? {color:#1F497D;} >? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >? ??? {} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >? ??? {} >? #yiv9417249292? Hi? I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am? interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a? design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >? ? where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting? which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of? the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are > independent of one another so? rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind? of > design.? Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 01:35:18 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 22:35:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c301cff270$f5cfd0d0$e16f7270$@telus.net> Very nice, Steve. The fender mod is a really great idea. All the boat trailers around here use surge brakes rather than electric. The electric won't last a week in the salt water and the surge brakes seem to work well enough until the steel drums corrode to death. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-24-14 5:01 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars I recently finished rebuilding an older K-250 trailer. For anyone interested I posted on our site a few photos and comments. Projects/Other/K-250 Trailer Rebuild The main improvement was the addition of a trailer mounted tongue extension system. I also added some 1/4" thick PFTE strips on the skid plates. I am anxious to see if it holds up and provides some slickness. I can now take it somewhere and get a weight for it since it is "done". I would like to see more "trailer" photos posted. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 01:52:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 22:52:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: References: <004f01cff17c$85e3eee0$91abcca0$@telus.net> <1414371513.2712.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cd01cff273$4f899050$ee9cb0f0$@telus.net> Hank, Will the cart float on its own? I did a survey dive at the launch ramp in Otter Lake, outside Princeton BC, as a potential sub dive site. The launch ramp was concrete and reasonably steep. The trouble was that at about three feet deep the concrete stopped and the bottom dropped off almost vertically to 20 feet. A couple of young people with a ski boat on a tandem trailer dropped the forward wheels of the drop off and the all the weight was taken up by the fender brackets, which bent up. Further damage resulted when they dragged the frame and fender brackets back up the drop off to get the wheels back on the ramp. A pricey day. Hence the reasoning behind my thought to weld a skid plate from the front of the trailer frame to the front of the wheels below the wheels' equator to allow the trailer to ride over the drop off without damage. For our long tongue trailers I think it's a necessity. It sounds like your cart will happily drive off the drop off and remain floating while the sub is launched and recovered. Sweet indeed. Tracks, you say? Now that's way cool. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-27-14 3:11 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Sounds good Hank. Looking forward to seeing it. James On 27 October 2014 00:58, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Tim, Thanks' I think it will be awesome, I have spent some time standing on the shore of different lakes wondering how I can get my sub in. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 8:25 PM Brilliant, Hank. Looking forward to seeing the results. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-26-14 5:51 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Douglas, Necessity is the mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find I can not launch. It is time to get serious about L&R I would do track drive but it is to heavy. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 PM Hank, I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage to go where no one has gone before! Sounds like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure you'll keep us up-to-date with photos, won't you. ~ Douglas S. On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:21 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I just pushed my launch cart into the shop for the last time. Tomorrow it will be reborn. The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd cylinder, the front is getting a 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic motor to drive it. The cart then gets two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks. On top of one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power and steer the cart, as well as a 24v alternator to charge my sub batteries. I will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down the boat ramp or beach or whatever into the water. The cart will stay anchored in the water, until I am ready to put the sub on and drive back to my trailer. SWEET Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 05:38:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 17:38:04 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544F63FC.6000903@archivale.com> Seems about right for general applications. But when very high thrust is needed at low speeds or under static conditions, the ducted propulsor is again superior. For that application it usually takes the form of a Kort nozzle like those often used on tugboats. Marc On 10/27/2014 12:30 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Marc, > didn't want to have to Google again. > Wiki..... Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and > economical at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as > boat speed increases beyond this, the extra hull > resistance generated by > struts, rudders , shafts (etc.) > means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to > 90 km/h; 60 mph). > Alan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. > > As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! > > Marc > > On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional > propulsion. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > > Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: > > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > > the same speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > > results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > > > >> wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > >> > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/__catalog > > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/__weblog > > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/__639380 > > > > Translations (BeWords profile): > > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-__dePiolenc > > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _________________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.__org > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/__listinfo.cgi/personal___submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 05:44:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 17:44:04 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> Message-ID: <544F6564.3080309@archivale.com> I'll say it again: eyeball engineering doesn't work with ducted propulsors. The Navy's river patrol boats used in Vietnam had water jet units built, so I am told, by the Jacuzzi firm, makers of whirlpool baths! Somebody there must have understood propulsion, though, because the units worked well. A ducted unit optimized for low speed and static operation will achieve a mass flow equivalent to a (much) larger open propeller, and will get better static thrust. Lower bollard pull for the same hp just means the ducted unit was not correctly designed for the application. Best, Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ On 10/27/2014 1:35 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A quick weigh-n on water jets. Years ago (many) I talked to the pilots > of the Cousteau ?Puce de Mer? (Sea Fleas) And the famous ?SP 350, Diving > Saucer? about the efficiency of their water jet propulsion units. They > confirmed that they were very ?weak? in a comedic way . . .they had a > phrase in French which made the two Sea Flea pilots break out laughing ? > my trusty translator also laughed and then tried to keep a straight face > as he said ?they are saying that the things that you ask about are not > strong enough to ? pull a penis out of a bucket of lard?! > Some years later we tried a high volume water pump coupled with a duct > engineered to work most efficiently with the pump. We hooked it up to a > fixed pad eye inside our large test tank and used a spring scale to > determine the bollard pull. Our froggie friends were quite right: using > a conventional prop powered with exactly the same horsepower gave a > large increase in bollard pull. > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:30 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > Marc, > didn't want to have to Google again. > Wiki.....Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical > at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as boat speed > increases beyond this, the extra hull > resistance generated by > struts, rudders , shafts (etc.) > means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90 > km/h; 60 mph). > Alan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. > > As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! > > Marc > > On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional > propulsion. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > > Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: > > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > > the same speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > > results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > > > >> wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > >> > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 08:16:37 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 05:16:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <544F6564.3080309@archivale.com> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> <544F6564.3080309@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1414498597.66112.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Mark, You just made my point. lower bollard pull comes from a lack of power and likely rpm. Sure you can design a sub to have equal bollard pull with jets, but it will have a much larger energy draw. Big energy draw is bad :-) Also eyeball engineering can work well when backed up with real world experience. Hank On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:44 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'll say it again: eyeball engineering doesn't work with ducted propulsors. The Navy's river patrol boats used in Vietnam had water jet units built, so I am told, by the Jacuzzi firm, makers of whirlpool baths! Somebody there must have understood propulsion, though, because the units worked well. A ducted unit optimized for low speed and static operation will achieve a mass flow equivalent to a (much) larger open propeller, and will get better static thrust. Lower bollard pull for the same hp just means the ducted unit was not correctly designed for the application. Best, Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ On 10/27/2014 1:35 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A quick weigh-n on water jets. Years ago (many) I talked to the pilots > of the Cousteau ?Puce de Mer? (Sea Fleas) And the famous ?SP 350, Diving > Saucer? about the efficiency of their water jet propulsion units. They > confirmed that they were very ?weak? in a comedic way . . .they had a > phrase in French which made the two Sea Flea pilots break out laughing ? > my trusty translator also laughed and then tried to keep a straight face > as he said ?they are saying that the things that you ask about are not > strong enough to ? pull a penis out of a bucket of lard?! > Some years later we tried a high volume water pump coupled with a duct > engineered to work most efficiently with the pump. We hooked it up to a > fixed pad eye inside our large test tank and used a spring scale to > determine the bollard pull. Our froggie friends were quite right: using > a conventional prop powered with exactly the same horsepower gave a > large increase in bollard pull. > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:30 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > Marc, > didn't want to have to Google again. > Wiki.....Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical > at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as boat speed > increases beyond this, the extra hull > resistance generated by > struts, rudders , shafts (etc.) > means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90 > km/h; 60 mph). > Alan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. > > As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! > > Marc > > On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional > propulsion. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > > Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: > > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > > the same speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > > results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > > > >> wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > >> > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 08:31:11 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 05:31:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days In-Reply-To: <00cd01cff273$4f899050$ee9cb0f0$@telus.net> References: <004f01cff17c$85e3eee0$91abcca0$@telus.net> <1414371513.2712.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <00cd01cff273$4f899050$ee9cb0f0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1414499471.54714.YahooMailNeo@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Tim, You bet, my cart will float with 4 inches free board when ballasted down, and 20 inches free board when ballasted up. I like your idea for trailer drop off protection. You could also consider an idler wheel ahead of the front wheel. I agree tacks would be soooo cool but not practical because of the weight. I am using my original mobile home wheels with new centers welded in to match the GM bolt pattern. A set of tracks would weigh 1,100 lbs also the power needed to steer rubber tracks on concrete or pavement is huge compared to rubber tires. The first time I get stuck though, I may change my mind. Hank On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:52 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Will the cart float on its own? I did a survey dive at the launch ramp in Otter Lake, outside Princeton BC, as a potential sub dive site. The launch ramp was concrete and reasonably steep. The trouble was that at about three feet deep the concrete stopped and the bottom dropped off almost vertically to 20 feet. A couple of young people with a ski boat on a tandem trailer dropped the forward wheels of the drop off and the all the weight was taken up by the fender brackets, which bent up. Further damage resulted when they dragged the frame and fender brackets back up the drop off to get the wheels back on the ramp. A pricey day. Hence the reasoning behind my thought to weld a skid plate from the front of the trailer frame to the front of the wheels below the wheels' equator to allow the trailer to ride over the drop off without damage. For our long tongue trailers I think it's a necessity. It sounds like your cart will happily drive off the drop off and remain floating while the sub is launched and recovered. Sweet indeed. Tracks, you say? Now that's way cool. Tim From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-27-14 3:11 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days Sounds good Hank. Looking forward to seeing it. James On 27 October 2014 00:58, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Tim, >Thanks' I think it will be awesome, I have spent some time standing on the shore of different lakes wondering how I can get my sub in. >Hank-------------------------------------------- >On Sun, 10/26/14, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 8:25 PM > > Brilliant, Hank. > > Looking forward to seeing the > results. > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: October-26-14 > 5:51 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart > last days > > > Douglas, > Necessity is the > mother of invention. I have driven to lakes only to find > I > can not launch. It is time to get > serious about L&R I would do track drive > but it is to heavy. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/25/14, Douglas Suhr via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] cart last days > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Received: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 8:55 > PM > > Hank, > > I've gotta hand it to you, you've got the courage > to go where no one has > gone before! Sounds > like a psubber's dream for ramp L&R. I'm sure > you'll > keep us up-to-date with photos, > won't you. ~ Douglas S. > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at > 6:21 > PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > I just > pushed my launch cart into the shop for the > last time. Tomorrow it will be > reborn. > The cart is getting a new rear axel that steers via hyd > cylinder, > the front is getting a > 1/2 ton chev differential with a hydraulic > motor to drive it. The cart > then gets > two dual chamber pontoons that act as ballast tanks. On > top of > one pontoon will be a 6 1/2 hp > Honda motor that drives a hyd pump to power > and steer the cart, as well as a 24v > alternator to charge my sub > batteries. I > will be able to drive the cart with the sub on it down > the > boat ramp or beach or whatever into > the water. The cart will stay anchored > in the water, until I am ready to put the sub > on and drive back to my > trailer. > SWEET > > > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 08:42:37 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 05:42:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets In-Reply-To: <1414498597.66112.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <544D90BE.5010005@archivale.com> <926328560.540053.1414384227484.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10095.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2B834CD701ED42BA8EC0423AB8BAB547@PhillPC> <544F6564.3080309@archivale.com> <1414498597.66112.YahooMailNeo@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414500157.28688.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Mark, The first time I read your explanation, I misunderstood, sorry about that, I got it backwards. Hank On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:17 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Mark, You just made my point. lower bollard pull comes from a lack of power and likely rpm. Sure you can design a sub to have equal bollard pull with jets, but it will have a much larger energy draw. Big energy draw is bad :-) Also eyeball engineering can work well when backed up with real world experience. Hank On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:44 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'll say it again: eyeball engineering doesn't work with ducted propulsors. The Navy's river patrol boats used in Vietnam had water jet units built, so I am told, by the Jacuzzi firm, makers of whirlpool baths! Somebody there must have understood propulsion, though, because the units worked well. A ducted unit optimized for low speed and static operation will achieve a mass flow equivalent to a (much) larger open propeller, and will get better static thrust. Lower bollard pull for the same hp just means the ducted unit was not correctly designed for the application. Best, Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ On 10/27/2014 1:35 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A quick weigh-n on water jets. Years ago (many) I talked to the pilots > of the Cousteau ?Puce de Mer? (Sea Fleas) And the famous ?SP 350, Diving > Saucer? about the efficiency of their water jet propulsion units. They > confirmed that they were very ?weak? in a comedic way . . .they had a > phrase in French which made the two Sea Flea pilots break out laughing ? > my trusty translator also laughed and then tried to keep a straight face > as he said ?they are saying that the things that you ask about are not > strong enough to ? pull a penis out of a bucket of lard?! > Some years later we tried a high volume water pump coupled with a duct > engineered to work most efficiently with the pump. We hooked it up to a > fixed pad eye inside our large test tank and used a spring scale to > determine the bollard pull. Our froggie friends were quite right: using > a conventional prop powered with exactly the same horsepower gave a > large increase in bollard pull. > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:30 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > Marc, > didn't want to have to Google again. > Wiki.....Classic prop-drives are generally more efficient and economical > at low speeds, up to about 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), but as boat speed > increases beyond this, the extra hull > resistance generated by > struts, rudders , shafts (etc.) > means waterjets are more efficient in the 20-50 knot range (up to 90 > km/h; 60 mph). > Alan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 1:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > A blythe generalization that is essentially meaningless. > > As Pazmany used to say: poot some nombers to it! > > Marc > > On 10/27/2014 3:50 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Also I did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of weeks back > > & what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional > propulsion. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets > > > > I don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but if there is > > considerable piping around of the water before it exits through the > > jets, that's what I was referring to. However, even that was not meant > > as criticism, it is just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient > > than a conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get > > entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via > > Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: > > > > There is nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are > > commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good thrust per > > horsepower - better than any supercavitating propeller could do at > > the same speed, certainly. > > > > Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets are much > > less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than open propellers. > > But whether it is "well known" or not, good design will produce good > > results. > > > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive > > takes two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive > > is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think > > you will find it very complicated to control and it will be very > > inefficient. I have been down this road, I love the concept but > > abandoned it. If you go forward may I suggest you start with a > > jet drive. It is not a simple part to replicate. The impeller > > tolerances are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could > > donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would > > consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank ------------------------------__-------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > > > >> wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > >> > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:__2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.__0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.__yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollo__wed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:__underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt > > 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build > > of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I am > > interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with a > > design which will include a vectored motor drive this will > > enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I have > > designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type propeller > > as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting > > which will take the water to four nozzles on the side of > > the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred and > > sixty degrees both side are independent of one another so > > rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor is > > you only need one motor source and one power pack this will > > ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of using > > your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind > > of design. Graham > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 11:11:44 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:11:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 mods Message-ID: <20141028081144.53A3260F@m0048138.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 11:17:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:17:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20141028081706.53A3259F@m0048138.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 12:12:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:12:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20141028081706.53A3259F@m0048138.ppops.net> References: <20141028081706.53A3259F@m0048138.ppops.net> Message-ID: <8D1C0E11DC76D69-238-1E539@webmail-va013.sysops.aol.com> That's awesome, Brian. A Perry drive in kit form!!! I'll bet a 4000# K-sub would really dance with one of those rigs. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 28, 2014 11:18 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Alan, Take a look at these guys, this is where I'm getting my motors. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 04:35:53 +0000 (UTC) Ken, haven't heard from you for a while. I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster. Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm. The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm are the RC outrunner motors that you might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor & running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushed counterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this. Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operating on around 48V. Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks. Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of > design. Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 13:20:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:20:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20141028081706.53A3259F@m0048138.ppops.net> References: <20141028081706.53A3259F@m0048138.ppops.net> Message-ID: <198E2F92-8BEE-4D8A-8D9C-C4B613DE983D@yahoo.com> Thanks Brian, all a bit bigger & more expensive than what I'm after. I bought a brushless outrunner 1500W motor for $50-. & will play around with that. Next step, if I can't find another solution, is to buy a 3000W & run it at half speed. I guess I will need to couple it to a stainless propeller shaft. Have been looking at frameless motors also. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/10/2014, at 4:17 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Take a look at these guys, this is where I'm getting my motors. > > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 04:35:53 +0000 (UTC) > > Ken, > haven't heard from you for a while. > I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster. > Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm. > The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm are the RC outrunner motors that > you might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor & > running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushed > counterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this. > Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operating > on around 48V. > Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks. > Alan > > From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water > is just not very compressible. > > Ken Martindale > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Compressing water will be quite some trick. > > Marc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: > http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Hi Hank > > > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet > drive and a compressor. > > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > > un folds. > > > > Graham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles > > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > > > Graham, > > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > > two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well > > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find > > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > > Hank -------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 -- > > > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > > #yiv9417249292 > > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > > {color:#1F497D;} > > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > > {} > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > > {} > > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer > > sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored > > motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > > want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > > propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > > take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles > > are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason > > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > > pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > > using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of > > design. Graham > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 15:48:55 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 15:48:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> Message-ID: <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 17:29:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 17:29:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > > I hope this is still you. > > I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full > hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical > head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were > talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's > junk pile. > > While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of > his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build > it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very > reasonable amount. > > My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to > do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial > copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested > much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). > > I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a > picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a > Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make > a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, > then it's going to be built. > > It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? > > Best Regards, > Vance Bradley > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 17:39:21 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:39:21 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <82F8897C-7D52-4BAC-874F-B5AC705EC64D@yahoo.com> Vance, in case you didn't see the post. Emile has his dome press / walk in oven built. Can't remember the size he can go to, but it was quite large. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/10/2014, at 10:29 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Vance, > > Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. > > My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. > > One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. > > I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. > > As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > ----------------- pasted ------------------ > Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 > > > > The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. > > > > > > > > 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) > > > > Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) > > > > From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 > > > > > > > > 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions > > > > tmin = 1.73? > > > > Di = 26.847? > > > > \t/Di = 0.064 > > > > Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 > > > > Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi > > > > Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi > > > > > > Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi > > > > \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> >> I hope this is still you. >> >> I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. >> >> While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. >> >> My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). >> >> I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. >> >> It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? >> >> Best Regards, >> Vance Bradley >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 18:00:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:00:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Message-ID: <3522f.22ac4b83.41816bfe@aol.com> Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 18:04:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:04:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D1C1124EF35310-37F4-20584@webmail-m237.sysops.aol.com> Thanks Alec, I'm with you on the window seat, and maybe we can do a little more with that nowadays than when you were building. What I'm planning is a hull diameter port of slightly smaller than hull radius (maybe a chord depth of 12 to 15 inches). Scratching my head about it, I figured the easiest thing to do was just ditch the forward ellipse entirely and replace it with the port and a diameter matched hull cylinder extension to make up for the difference. The steel portion of the assembly might end up a foot long or so. That way I can build the steel viewport seat on the bench, so to speak, and might (I say MIGHT) be able to weld the assembly back to the hull without distorting the mating surface. Will have to hear from some welder/machinists about that before I decide. Full penetration welds make a lot of heat, so that part worries me. It would be expensive to true the thing up once all welded fabrication is complete, but I really will need that extra bit of hull length anyway, so it might just come to that. A second possibility is to weld a mating flange into the hull (flat on the hull side, which would be cheaper to true up, machine shop wise). Then I'd weld a match with o-ring groove on one end of the viewport assembly with, of course, the port on the other end. There would be two big o-rings to deal with (viewport and hull), but that doesn't matter in any practical sense, assuming the fabrication is accurate--and if it ain't, then I did it wrong. The weights and balances should work out pretty close, so it will still be a K-350 more or less. Only without the hawk nose main ballast tank out front. The sub will need saddle tanks then, rather than the fore and aft. Cliff and I are already on the same page for propulsion arrangements, and I've got the pods for a dual 36 volt system plus a couple of 12s for this and that. I doubt that I'll ever be able to match the Redus fiberglas work, but this thing will have to be faired at least somewhat. If all that works out, then I'll use HP air mounted outside, and medical oxygen bottles racked inside. And if my guesstimates work out, then I should come out pretty close to even. At least that's the plan. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 28, 2014 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport DepthRating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for asperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1)Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Watertemperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) FromTable 2-2.4, CF = 7 2)Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Enteringtable 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solvingfor Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi SinceShort Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solvingfor P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth forwindow = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 18:06:46 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:06:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <82F8897C-7D52-4BAC-874F-B5AC705EC64D@yahoo.com> References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> <82F8897C-7D52-4BAC-874F-B5AC705EC64D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D1C112990C8070-37F4-205AD@webmail-m237.sysops.aol.com> Alan, I saw that. He's something, isn't he? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 28, 2014 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Vance, in case you didn't see the post. Emile has his dome press / walk in oven built. Can't remember the size he can go to, but it was quite large. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2014, at 10:29 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport DepthRating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for asperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1)Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Watertemperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) FromTable 2-2.4, CF = 7 2)Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Enteringtable 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solvingfor Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi SinceShort Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solvingfor P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth forwindow = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 18:12:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:12:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <3522f.22ac4b83.41816bfe@aol.com> References: <3522f.22ac4b83.41816bfe@aol.com> Message-ID: <8D1C1135E847150-37F4-20600@webmail-m237.sysops.aol.com> Jim, It seems to me that Rain-X and acrylic aren't the best of friends. I've never used it, anyway. As a point of interest, we had the secondary shields on all the Perry boats originally, but with 3/4" holes top, middle and bottom, which left room to stick a hose in for rinsing. and the holes pretty much disappeared in the water and weren't a problem, visually. I think they used a couple of dozen screws to put them on, so we didn't do it very often, as you might well imagine. Vance -----Original Message----- From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 28, 2014 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 18:38:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:38:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Message-ID: <36429.48c5bb11.418174d1@aol.com> Vance, Is the problem with Rain-X a function of interaction with sunlight, salt water, or ...? I recall about forty years ago there was a paste available for use on Plexiglas aircraft windscreens, but I was reluctant to risk using it for fear of doing it wrong and fogging up the windscreen. It was basically a rubbing compound. Covering the windscreen when stored outdoors to protect it from the sun was well worth it to retard crazing and yellowing. Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 5:12:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, It seems to me that Rain-X and acrylic aren't the best of friends. I've never used it, anyway. As a point of interest, we had the secondary shields on all the Perry boats originally, but with 3/4" holes top, middle and bottom, which left room to stick a hose in for rinsing. and the holes pretty much disappeared in the water and weren't a problem, visually. I think they used a couple of dozen screws to put them on, so we didn't do it very often, as you might well imagine. Vance -----Original Message----- From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 28, 2014 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 22:07:49 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 22:07:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <3522f.22ac4b83.41816bfe@aol.com> References: <3522f.22ac4b83.41816bfe@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and a half at the base. I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. Phil recommendation that does wonders. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > > What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type > of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type > of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's > an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer > dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. > > All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while > back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be > superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. > > Best regards, > Jim T. > > In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hi Vance, > > Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome > Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it > would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. > Luckily it came out virtually perfect. > > My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree > segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the > 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also > acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which > telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With > ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a > coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now > mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very > handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and > the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a > permanently welded conventional seat. > > One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO > rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication > capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the > seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that > way. > > I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the > other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only > half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the > structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space > between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the > edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would > squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock > absorber. > > As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really > just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would > have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks > and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do > engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they > simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum > of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of > the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident > that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > ----------------- pasted ------------------ > Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 > > > > The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector > window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. > > > > > > > > 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) > > > > Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) > > > > From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 > > > > > > > > 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions > > > > tmin = 1.73? > > > > Di = 26.847? > > > > \t/Di = 0.064 > > > > Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 > > > > Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi > > > > Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi > > > > > > Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi > > > > \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw > > > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, >> >> I hope this is still you. >> >> I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full >> hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical >> head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were >> talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's >> junk pile. >> >> While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his >> recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it >> for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very >> reasonable amount. >> >> My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to >> do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial >> copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested >> much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). >> >> I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a >> picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a >> Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make >> a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, >> then it's going to be built. >> >> It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? >> >> Best Regards, >> Vance Bradley >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Oct 28 23:18:12 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 23:18:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Message-ID: <3c67b.55af0b05.4181b674@aol.com> Hi Alec, I had forgotten about using dish detergent. If I recall correctly it was used on the inside of the dome for anti-fog also. Have to put that on my checklist before I forget it again. And it will make the sub smell "lemony fresh." Looking forward to seeing your pics. Thanks much, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 9:09:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and a half at the base. I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. Phil recommendation that does wonders. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 29 06:49:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:49:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <3c67b.55af0b05.4181b674@aol.com> References: <3c67b.55af0b05.4181b674@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Actually its used on the inside only. Nothing at all is needed on the outside. Thanks, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:18 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > > I had forgotten about using dish detergent. If I recall correctly it was > used on the inside of the dome for anti-fog also. Have to put that on my > checklist before I forget it again. And it will make the sub smell "lemony > fresh." Looking forward to seeing your pics. > > Thanks much, > Jim T. > > In a message dated 10/28/2014 9:09:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hi Jim, > > No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove > the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, > so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's > probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and > a half at the base. > > I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. > Phil recommendation that does wonders. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Alec, >> >> What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type >> of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type >> of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's >> an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer >> dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. >> >> All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while >> back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be >> superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim T. >> >> In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> Hi Vance, >> >> Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome >> Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it >> would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. >> Luckily it came out virtually perfect. >> >> My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 >> degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap >> between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow >> window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring >> 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by >> rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I >> now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is >> now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a >> very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill >> and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a >> permanently welded conventional seat. >> >> One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO >> rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication >> capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the >> seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that >> way. >> >> I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the >> other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only >> half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the >> structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space >> between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the >> edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would >> squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock >> absorber. >> >> As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really >> just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would >> have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks >> and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do >> engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they >> simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum >> of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of >> the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident >> that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- pasted ------------------ >> Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 >> >> >> >> The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector >> window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) >> >> >> >> Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >> >> >> >> From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions >> >> >> >> tmin = 1.73? >> >> >> >> Di = 26.847? >> >> >> >> \t/Di = 0.064 >> >> >> >> Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 >> >> >> >> Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi >> >> >> >> Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi >> >> >> >> >> >> Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi >> >> >> >> \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, >>> >>> I hope this is still you. >>> >>> I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full >>> hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical >>> head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were >>> talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's >>> junk pile. >>> >>> While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of >>> his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build >>> it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very >>> reasonable amount. >>> >>> My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to >>> do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial >>> copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested >>> much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). >>> >>> I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a >>> picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a >>> Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make >>> a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, >>> then it's going to be built. >>> >>> It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Vance Bradley >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 29 08:17:57 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevrnson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:17:57 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> References: <9674CD468FD230449E116DE0B0E56FF909CC5C60@nasa-dtw-ex005.nasa.cpwr.corp> <8D1C0FF575DD66E-1464-1D4D6@webmail-vm013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3963ceea-d791-4c57-b0a8-f5db68eff2ee@email.android.com> Vance, I'd be happy to run some calcs for you if you have some constraints to start with (I.e. know any two of: inner or outer radius, thickness, working depth). Or were you referring to the seat calcs? Sean On October 28, 2014 1:48:55 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alec, > > >I hope this is still you. > > >I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full >hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical >head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were >talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of >Pete's junk pile. > > >While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of >his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could >build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was >a very reasonable amount. > > >My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how >to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a >partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it >would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). > > >I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have >a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a >Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would >make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame >designed, then it's going to be built. > > >It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? > > >Best Regards, >Vance Bradley > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 29 21:46:28 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1146526052.742838.1414470953344.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10057.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <024101cff17b$c61881c0$52498540$@rr.com> <1146526052.742838.1414470953344.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10057.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004e01cff3e3$52e949e0$f8bbdda0$@telus.net> Alan, Any luck with marine bow thrusters? They are around 1500 watts, 12 volts, and come in a sealed, but not pressurized, housing. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-27-14 9:36 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Ken, haven't heard from you for a while. I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster. Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm. The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm are the RC outrunner motors that you might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor & running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushed counterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this. Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operating on around 48V. Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of > design. Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Oct 29 21:49:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:49:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <3c67b.55af0b05.4181b674@aol.com> References: <3c67b.55af0b05.4181b674@aol.com> Message-ID: <005301cff3e3$be7973b0$3b6c5b10$@telus.net> Dish soap works fabulously, Jim. My first dive with my semi-dry sub was spent running mostly by compass and constantly wiping the interior windows. I wiped liquid dish soap on the inside surface of the windows for the second dive and had no fogging. Cheap and easy. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-28-14 8:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Alec, I had forgotten about using dish detergent. If I recall correctly it was used on the inside of the dome for anti-fog also. Have to put that on my checklist before I forget it again. And it will make the sub smell "lemony fresh." Looking forward to seeing your pics. Thanks much, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 9:09:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and a half at the base. I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. Phil recommendation that does wonders. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 *F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 00:05:41 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 21:05:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] as no ones respond my questions i buy the plans Message-ID: Hi , i sent several emails asking for a bill on materials to build the k-250, just order the plans , did some calculations based on the builders sites, my quiestion is, who made or were i can buy the acrylic dome? thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 05:26:22 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 09:26:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <004e01cff3e3$52e949e0$f8bbdda0$@telus.net> References: <004e01cff3e3$52e949e0$f8bbdda0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <103983309.257255.1414661182260.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100188.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Tim,I am trying to make up my own brushless thruster.About 90% of the thruster manufacturers use brushless motors,however the cheapest price I've found is about $3,500 for thrusterkort nozzle & controller. This seems axcessive as I can buy a 1500Wbrushless motor & controller for round $100-. It's just a matter of tracking down?the right motor. I am trying to find something around 1500W but with revs of less than3000 rpm. Adding a gear box to get the propeller shaft revs down is an option Iam hoping to avoid.Also the voltage needs to be up near 48V to reduce the amps.?There seems to be a problem getting hold of ready made electrial penetraters?suitable for high amps.Cheers Alan From: T Novak via Pers-onal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) #yiv0660100292 #yiv0660100292 -- _filtered #yiv0660100292 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0660100292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0660100292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0660100292 #yiv0660100292 p.yiv0660100292MsoNormal, #yiv0660100292 li.yiv0660100292MsoNormal, #yiv0660100292 div.yiv0660100292MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0660100292 a:link, #yiv0660100292 span.yiv0660100292MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0660100292 a:visited, #yiv0660100292 span.yiv0660100292MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0660100292 span.yiv0660100292EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0660100292 .yiv0660100292MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0660100292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv0660100292 div.yiv0660100292WordSection1 {}#yiv0660100292 Alan, ?Any luck with marine bow thrusters?? They are around 1500 watts, 12 volts, and come in a sealed, but not pressurized, housing. ?Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-27-14 9:36 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ?Ken,haven't heard from you for a while.I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster.Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm.The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm ?are the RC outrunner motors thatyou might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor &running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushedcounterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this.Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operatingon around 48V.?Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks.Alan ?From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job.? Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft.? I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it.? If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive.? It is not a simple > part to replicate.? The impeller tolerances are critical.? I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project.? The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >? To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > >? Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > >? #yiv9417249292 >? #yiv9417249292 -- > >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >? 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >? #yiv9417249292 >? #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292? div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal >? ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} >? #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 >? span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink >? ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >? #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed >? ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >? #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 >? ??? {color:#1F497D;} >? #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault >? ??? {} >? ? _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt? 72.0pt;} >? #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 >? ??? {} >? #yiv9417249292? Hi? I am near the end of my build? of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am? interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a? design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will? enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have? designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller? as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit >? ? where it is compressed? then it is forced into ducting? which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of? the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and? sixty degrees? both side are > independent of one another so? rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will? ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using? your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind? of > design.? Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 06:14:08 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:14:08 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] as no ones respond my questions i buy the plans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Roberto I replied to you. As I said, a rough idea is ?30000 for the entire boat (K350). I think I paid about ?4000 for my first batch of steel parts. You'll need the plans so you know what to order. Kind Regards James On 30 October 2014 04:05, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi , i sent several emails asking for a bill on materials to build the > k-250, just order the plans , did some calculations based on the builders > sites, my quiestion is, who made or were i can buy the acrylic dome? thanks > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 06:18:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:18:33 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] as no ones respond my questions i buy the plans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01cff42a$dc631b00$95295100$@net> Hi The price of materials varies it depends on how much cash you have and the way you want to build so an estimate for a sub can be ant thing from ?10,000 to ?50.000 it is up to you how much you want to spend. As to your question where to get acrylic domes and view ports Stanley plastics in the Uk do a good job but i do not know where you live . James replied to your question a few days ago about the cost of materials check your in box. Regards Graham From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 30 October 2014 04:06 To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] as no ones respond my questions i buy the plans Hi , i sent several emails asking for a bill on materials to build the k-250, just order the plans , did some calculations based on the builders sites, my quiestion is, who made or were i can buy the acrylic dome? thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 06:26:25 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:26:25 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <103983309.257255.1414661182260.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100188.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <004e01cff3e3$52e949e0$f8bbdda0$@telus.net> <103983309.257255.1414661182260.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100188.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301cff42b$f5c36c70$e14a4550$@net> Hi I had a problem geting a penetrator to take my thirty six volt cabling I asked for a quote for cable which was 175 amps rated and got a reply of over two thousand pounds in the end I made my own by buying a stainless flexible pipe and threaded the cable through this worked and my motor runs fine. I am using a LMC motor rated for 12 to 72 volts this is a small compact motor which produces a lot of power. Re4gards Graham From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 30 October 2014 09:26 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Hi Tim, I am trying to make up my own brushless thruster. About 90% of the thruster manufacturers use brushless motors, however the cheapest price I've found is about $3,500 for thruster kort nozzle & controller. This seems axcessive as I can buy a 1500W brushless motor & controller for round $100-. It's just a matter of tracking down the right motor. I am trying to find something around 1500W but with revs of less than 3000 rpm. Adding a gear box to get the propeller shaft revs down is an option I am hoping to avoid. Also the voltage needs to be up near 48V to reduce the amps. There seems to be a problem getting hold of ready made electrial penetraters suitable for high amps. Cheers Alan _____ From: T Novak via Pers-onal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Alan, Any luck with marine bow thrusters? They are around 1500 watts, 12 volts, and come in a sealed, but not pressurized, housing. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-27-14 9:36 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Ken, haven't heard from you for a while. I am trying to track down a suitable DC brushless motor around 1500W for a thruster. Preferably I don't want to gear it down, so I need an output speed of less than 3000rpm. The only brushless motors I can find with low rpm are the RC outrunner motors that you might find at Hobby King. I am looking at playing round with a larger motor & running it at 1/2 it's maximum voltage. They seem so small compared to their brushed counterpart that I don't think I will be disadvantaged size wise by doing this. Most of these motors seem to be low voltage, high amps, & I would prefer something operating on around 48V. Any words of wisdom or product recommendation here thanks. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Water is compressible, look how the submarine "Ben Franklin" did it. Water is just not very compressible. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Compressing water will be quite some trick. Marc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc On 10/26/2014 11:06 PM, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank > > I agree a jet drive is the way to go did you not think that a jet ski > drive was to small and would only drive a small craft. I intend to > build a larger jet drive and compress the water. This will be easy and > add power to the system the jet drive from a jet ski would not drive a > sub but I am certain I can overcome the problems by building a larger jet drive and a compressor. > Thank you for your input and I will keep you informed as the project > un folds. > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: 26 October 2014 12:42 > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > Graham, > In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet drive takes > two times the horse power to do the same job. Jet drive is well > suited to a craft that needs a shallow draft. I think you will find > it very complicated to control and it will be very inefficient. I have > been down this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go > forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is not a simple > part to replicate. The impeller tolerances are critical. I have a > jet unit on the shelf I could donate to your project. The jet is from > a jet ski. I would consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM > > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 -- > > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv9417249292 > #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 > li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal > {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292 > span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault > {} > _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} > #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1 > {} > #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build of my k350 and have > started to look at new designs I am interested in building a flyer > sub and have come up with a design which will include a vectored > motor drive this will enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I > want. I have designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type > propeller as an intake this will force water to the rear of the unit > where it is compressed then it is forced into ducting which will > take the water to four nozzles on the side of the craft. The nozzles > are able to turn three hundred and sixty degrees both side are > independent of one another so rolls will be achievable. The reason > for a vectored motor is you only need one motor source and one power > pack this will ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of > using your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this kind of > design. Graham > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 08:32:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 05:32:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Message-ID: <1414672354.2677.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars. It is for an electric bike. I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing. He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 08:39:52 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:39:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Message-ID: <660b8.48262d86.41838b98@aol.com> Thanks, Tim, if it works that well in your ambient, it should be fine for a 1ATM. And thanks again for bringing your SportSub to Bellingham. I had seen numerous pictures of that model, but seeing it hands-on and hearing your descriptions of the operational considerations was far more enlightening. Jim T. In a message dated 10/29/2014 8:50:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Dish soap works fabulously, Jim. My first dive with my semi-dry sub was spent running mostly by compass and constantly wiping the interior windows. I wiped liquid dish soap on the inside surface of the windows for the second dive and had no fogging. Cheap and easy. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-28-14 8:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Alec, I had forgotten about using dish detergent. If I recall correctly it was used on the inside of the dome for anti-fog also. Have to put that on my checklist before I forget it again. And it will make the sub smell "lemony fresh." Looking forward to seeing your pics. Thanks much, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 9:09:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Hi Jim, No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and a half at the base. I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. Phil recommendation that does wonders. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 ?F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 14:47:17 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 14:47:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report Message-ID: All, to follow up my last trailer posting. I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension system. This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will get you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is a basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" ramp scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as important. My solution is mostly untested. I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be adding a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because the surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and will function with any towing vehicle. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 15:13:56 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:13:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, I'm looking forward to the photos, but I can't find any such "Trlr extension testing" project page. Thanks, Alec On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > All, to follow up my last trailer posting. > > I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension system. > This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: > > Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) > > Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will get > you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is a > basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" ramp > scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the > ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as > important. My solution is mostly untested. > > I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be adding > a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because the > surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and will > function with any towing vehicle. > > Steve > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 15:21:07 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:21:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Should be there now. Forgot to hit the publish button [?] Steve On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I'm looking forward to the photos, but I can't find any such "Trlr > extension testing" project page. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> All, to follow up my last trailer posting. >> >> I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension system. >> This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: >> >> Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) >> >> Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will get >> you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is a >> basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" ramp >> scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the >> ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as >> important. My solution is mostly untested. >> >> I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be adding >> a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because the >> surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and will >> function with any towing vehicle. >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 33D.gif Type: image/gif Size: 104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 16:22:42 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1414672354.2677.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414672354.2677.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1231287535.359883.1414700562682.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100155.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 19:09:47 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 16:09:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1231287535.359883.1414700562682.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100155.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414710587.92141.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I am not talking about a hub motor, the motor I am looking at is in the 3 to 4 in dia range. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 4:22 PM Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 19:25:19 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 16:25:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Message-ID: <20141030162519.6239B758@m0048137.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 19:39:51 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 23:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <20141030162519.6239B758@m0048137.ppops.net> References: <20141030162519.6239B758@m0048137.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1933220462.6870.1414712391286.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100162.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 19:49:30 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 16:49:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, Great Job. are you leaving the extensions on your deck trailer, or did you create a saddle for them to sit in? One thought on the skid wheel is to make so that it can swivel in the event that you are turning when it is contact with the ground. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Should be there now. Forgot to hit the publish button [?] > Steve > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> I'm looking forward to the photos, but I can't find any such "Trlr >> extension testing" project page. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>> All, to follow up my last trailer posting. >>> >>> I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension >>> system. This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: >>> >>> Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) >>> >>> Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will get >>> you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is a >>> basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" ramp >>> scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the >>> ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as >>> important. My solution is mostly untested. >>> >>> I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be >>> adding a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because >>> the surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and >>> will function with any towing vehicle. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 33D.gif Type: image/gif Size: 104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 20:00:09 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:00:09 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1933220462.6870.1414712391286.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100162.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20141030162519.6239B758@m0048137.ppops.net> <1933220462.6870.1414712391286.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100162.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5452d118.e5fa440a.7568.7f50@mx.google.com> Alan What revs? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Hi Brian, thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter. The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revs too fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box. Alan _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor What about this one? http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Thanks Hank & Graham. I am probably searching for Nirvana here. First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution. I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc. The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, which is no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyond the diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500W but they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunner motor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight. This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning your prop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37. To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced to go with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway. One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way below it's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motor which may help it live a lot longer. Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water. Alan P.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangers and pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars. It is for an electric bike. I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing. He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 20:02:33 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 00:02:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1414710587.92141.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414710587.92141.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1025317103.7788.1414713753334.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100187.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank,was it brushless?Did an ebay search on brushless 48V but not anything suitable.Getting the low rpm is proving difficult.There are 26,000 listings under Brushless motor on Ebay :(Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I am not talking about a hub motor, the motor I am looking at is in the 3 to 4 in dia range.? Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 4:22 PM Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. ? ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.?? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 20:07:06 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 00:07:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <5452d118.e5fa440a.7568.7f50@mx.google.com> References: <5452d118.e5fa440a.7568.7f50@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <353142912.9156.1414714026289.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100198.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Hugh,I'm looking for something under 3000rpm straight from the motorwithout a gear box.Why 3000rpm? Mainly because that seems to be the maximum that the professionalthruster manufacturers go to; also some other reading I have done indicated thatthat was at the high end.Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor #yiv0532797367 #yiv0532797367 -- _filtered #yiv0532797367 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0532797367 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0532797367 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv0532797367 #yiv0532797367 p.yiv0532797367MsoNormal, #yiv0532797367 li.yiv0532797367MsoNormal, #yiv0532797367 div.yiv0532797367MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0532797367 a:link, #yiv0532797367 span.yiv0532797367MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0532797367 a:visited, #yiv0532797367 span.yiv0532797367MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0532797367 p.yiv0532797367MsoAcetate, #yiv0532797367 li.yiv0532797367MsoAcetate, #yiv0532797367 div.yiv0532797367MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0532797367 span.yiv0532797367EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0532797367 span.yiv0532797367BalloonTextChar {}#yiv0532797367 .yiv0532797367MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0532797367 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv0532797367 div.yiv0532797367WordSection1 {}#yiv0532797367 AlanWhat revs? ?Hugh ? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan ?From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) ?Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 20:23:43 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:23:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1025317103.7788.1414713753334.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100187.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1414715023.66477.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Yes brushless 48 v item 19123905315 Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 8:02 PM Hank,was it brushless?Did an ebay search on brushless 48V but not anything suitable.Getting the low rpm is proving difficult.There are 26,000 listings under Brushless motor on Ebay :(Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I am not talking about a hub motor, the motor I am looking at is in the 3 to 4 in dia range.? Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 4:22 PM Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. ? ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.?? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 20:28:00 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:28:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <353142912.9156.1414714026289.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100198.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5452d118.e5fa440a.7568.7f50@mx.google.com> <353142912.9156.1414714026289.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100198.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5452d79f.ea44440a.4dda.ffff86fd@mx.google.com> No what revs is the small motor you found. You said it was very high. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 1:07 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Hi Hugh, I'm looking for something under 3000rpm straight from the motor without a gear box. Why 3000rpm? Mainly because that seems to be the maximum that the professional thruster manufacturers go to; also some other reading I have done indicated that that was at the high end. Alan _____ From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan What revs? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Hi Brian, thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter. The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revs too fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box. Alan _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor What about this one? http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Thanks Hank & Graham. I am probably searching for Nirvana here. First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution. I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc. The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, which is no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyond the diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500W but they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunner motor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight. This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning your prop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37. To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced to go with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway. One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way below it's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motor which may help it live a lot longer. Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water. Alan P.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangers and pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars. It is for an electric bike. I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing. He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 22:22:34 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 19:22:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <5452d79f.ea44440a.4dda.ffff86fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1414722154.64510.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Why not buy a Minnkota or like and use the motor part ? Pete -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 7:28 PM #yiv9915414630 #yiv9915414630 -- _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:helveticaneue;} #yiv9915414630 #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630MsoNormal, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630MsoNormal, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 a:link, #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 a:visited, #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msoacetate, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msoacetate, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msoacetate {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msonormal, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msonormal, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msochpdefault, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msochpdefault, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlink {} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlinkfollowed {} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630emailstyle17 {} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msonormal1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msonormal1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msoacetate1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msoacetate1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msoacetate1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630EmailStyle29 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630BalloonTextChar {} #yiv9915414630 .yiv9915414630MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9915414630 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630WordSection1 {} #yiv9915414630 No what revs is the small motor you found.? You said it was very high. ?Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 1:07 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?Hi Hugh,I'm looking for something under 3000rpm straight from the motorwithout a gear box.Why 3000rpm? Mainly because that seems to be the maximum that the professionalthruster manufacturers go to; also some other reading I have done indicated thatthat was at the high end.Alan ?From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?AlanWhat revs??Hugh?? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan?From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC)?Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that.?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 22:44:59 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 02:44:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <5452d79f.ea44440a.4dda.ffff86fd@mx.google.com> References: <5452d79f.ea44440a.4dda.ffff86fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <619696838.23890.1414723499216.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10057.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Hugh,they rate them in kv, (revs per volt) & the one I have is 236.Turnigy Aerodrive SK3 - 5065-236kv Brushless Outrunner Motor It says maximum voltage of 37 but at the kv rate it would get to?3000 rpm at 12V.(I think.) However I'm not sure what happens with a load on yet.I need to spend a lot more time studying / experimenting, with this.Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor #yiv0441540803 #yiv0441540803 -- _filtered #yiv0441540803 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0441540803 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0441540803 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv0441540803 #yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803MsoNormal, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803MsoNormal, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 a:link, #yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0441540803 a:visited, #yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803MsoAcetate, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803MsoAcetate, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msoacetate, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msoacetate, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msoacetate {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msonormal, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msonormal, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msochpdefault, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msochpdefault, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803msohyperlink {}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803emailstyle17 {}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msonormal1, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msonormal1, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msoacetate1, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msoacetate1, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msoacetate1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0441540803 p.yiv0441540803msochpdefault1, #yiv0441540803 li.yiv0441540803msochpdefault1, #yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803EmailStyle29 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0441540803 span.yiv0441540803BalloonTextChar {}#yiv0441540803 .yiv0441540803MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0441540803 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv0441540803 div.yiv0441540803WordSection1 {}#yiv0441540803 No what revs is the small motor you found.? You said it was very high. ?Hugh ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 1:07 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?Hi Hugh,I'm looking for something under 3000rpm straight from the motorwithout a gear box.Why 3000rpm? Mainly because that seems to be the maximum that the professionalthruster manufacturers go to; also some other reading I have done indicated thatthat was at the high end.Alan ?From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?AlanWhat revs??Hugh?? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan?From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC)?Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that.?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 22:50:07 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 02:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1414715023.66477.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414715023.66477.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1854607618.23213.1414723807411.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10091.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank,I did a search on that number & didn't come up with anything.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, Yes brushless 48 v item? 19123905315? Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 8:02 PM Hank,was it brushless?Did an ebay search on brushless 48V but not anything suitable.Getting the low rpm is proving difficult.There are 26,000 listings under Brushless motor on Ebay :(Alan ? ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:09 PM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? Alan, I am not talking about a hub motor, the motor I am looking at is in the 3 to 4 in dia range.? Hank-------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Received: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 4:22 PM ? ? Thanks ? Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent ? multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The ? E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large ? diameter, whichis no ? good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop ? to get out beyondthe ? diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ? ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they ? can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC ? outrunnermotor for ? $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & ? 1/27th the weight.This does ? 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you ? don't want to be turning yourprop at ? more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive ? this motor with?a maximum ? of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of ? 37.To ? disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an ? outrunner, I may be forced togo with ? oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless ? thrusters are anyway.One ? solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type ? motor & run it way belowit's ? maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't ? be thrashing the motorwhich ? may help it live a lot longer.Need to ? do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank ? I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to ? a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off ? on that. ? ? ? ?? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? To: ? personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM ? Subject: ? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? Alan, ? I just went on ebay and ? found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for ? 200 dollars.?? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one ? for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was ? driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate ? board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. ? You won't need a gearbox either. ? Hank _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? ?? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 23:01:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 03:01:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1414722154.64510.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1414722154.64510.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1428669437.27983.1414724465969.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100172.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Pete,I have been looking at frameless brushless motors, but convertinga brushed motor to a brushless would be huge (for me) if that iswhat you mean. Also one of the attractions of the brushless motorsI've looked at, is the power to size ratio.?The little motor I have is 2" diameter X 3.5" long & weighs 788gms?for 1850W, which is more powerful than a MinnKotta 101Alan From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Why not buy a Minnkota or like and use the motor part ? Pete -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/30/14, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 7:28 PM #yiv9915414630 #yiv9915414630 -- ? ? _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} ? _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} ? _filtered #yiv9915414630 {font-family:helveticaneue;} #yiv9915414630? #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630MsoNormal, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630MsoNormal, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630MsoNormal ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 a:link, #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630MsoHyperlink ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 a:visited, #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630MsoHyperlinkFollowed ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630MsoAcetate ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msoacetate, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msoacetate, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msoacetate ??? {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msonormal, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msonormal, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msonormal ??? {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msochpdefault, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msochpdefault, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msochpdefault ??? {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlink ??? {} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlinkfollowed ??? {} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630emailstyle17 ??? {} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msonormal1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msonormal1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msonormal1 ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlink1 ??? {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630msohyperlinkfollowed1 ??? {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msoacetate1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msoacetate1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msoacetate1 ??? {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630emailstyle171 ??? {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9915414630 p.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1, #yiv9915414630 li.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1, #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630msochpdefault1 ??? {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630EmailStyle29 ??? {color:#1F497D;} #yiv9915414630 span.yiv9915414630BalloonTextChar ??? {} #yiv9915414630 .yiv9915414630MsoChpDefault ??? {font-size:10.0pt;} ? _filtered #yiv9915414630 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv9915414630 div.yiv9915414630WordSection1 ??? {} #yiv9915414630 No what revs is the small motor you found.? You said it was very high. ?Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 1:07 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?Hi Hugh,I'm looking for something under 3000rpm straight from the motorwithout a gear box.Why 3000rpm? Mainly because that seems to be the maximum that the professionalthruster manufacturers go to; also some other reading I have done indicated thatthat was at the high end.Alan ?From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ?AlanWhat revs??Hugh?? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 12:40 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan?From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor?What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC)?Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that.?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 10647 (20141030) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 23:21:04 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:21:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions In-Reply-To: <660b8.48262d86.41838b98@aol.com> References: <660b8.48262d86.41838b98@aol.com> Message-ID: <007e01cff4b9$b4a8eb50$1dfac1f0$@telus.net> Thanks, Jim. I was very excited to attend, thankfully it was close by. I really enjoyed meeting everyone. And Phil was a terrific host! Looking forward to next year and hopefully meeting more psubbers and their submarines. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-30-14 5:40 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Thanks, Tim, if it works that well in your ambient, it should be fine for a 1ATM. And thanks again for bringing your SportSub to Bellingham. I had seen numerous pictures of that model, but seeing it hands-on and hearing your descriptions of the operational considerations was far more enlightening. Jim T. In a message dated 10/29/2014 8:50:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Dish soap works fabulously, Jim. My first dive with my semi-dry sub was spent running mostly by compass and constantly wiping the interior windows. I wiped liquid dish soap on the inside surface of the windows for the second dive and had no fogging. Cheap and easy. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-28-14 8:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] viewport questions Hi Alec, I had forgotten about using dish detergent. If I recall correctly it was used on the inside of the dome for anti-fog also. Have to put that on my checklist before I forget it again. And it will make the sub smell "lemony fresh." Looking forward to seeing your pics. Thanks much, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 9:09:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, No mesh and no flushing system, it just takes about two minutes to remove the outer dome as its a few screws. This BTW has never been in the water, so we'll see and learn when it does. Just off the top of my head, it's probably about 8 inches of separation at the apex and tapers to an inch and a half at the base. I don't use Rain-X on the viewports, I use Joy detergent, which is a Dr. Phil recommendation that does wonders. Best, Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alec, What is the average distance between the two domes? Do you have any type of mesh etc. over the 1/4" holes to keep debris out? Do you have some type of flushing system for cleaning the surfaces between the two? Since that's an ambient space I'm guessing it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer dome when you want to do a thorough cleaning. All: Have you been using Rain-X on your view ports and domes? A while back I saw some ads for another hydrophobic product that claims to be superior to Rain-X, but I don't recall the brand. Best regards, Jim T. In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:30:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Vance, Actually it starts at 2" thickness, and at the time was the thickest dome Greg had made. It was an iffy proposition, meaning he didn't know if it would turn into sub jewelry or just a deformed glob of expensive material. Luckily it came out virtually perfect. My hull is 31" OD, a little smaller than yours. The window is a 120 degree segment, just under 27" OD. So the trick is how to span the gap between the 27 inches and the 31 inches. In the original design, this bow window also acted as a hatch, a la Deep Flight. I made a massive Al ring 31" OD, which telescoped on linear bearings and four 1.25" bars, driven by rams. With ensuing redesign, the need for all that disappeared because I now have a coning tower, so I've dropped the bars and rams, and the seat is now mounted to the hull very simply with four big bolts. It will make a very handy big door into the sub for maintenance purposes, but is overkill and the window could be mounted by using part of your existing endcap and a permanently welded conventional seat. One big decision is the window seat geometry. I like conical because PVHO rates it for twice the life of square edge, but it requires fabrication capabilities that Greg didn't have for the window and I didn't have for the seat. So its a square edge for the simple reason that we could make it that way. I should mention the Al ring actually has two domes on it, one inside the other. The 27" dome is structural, and the outside dome is 31" and only half an inch thick. The outside one is just for fairing, to protect the structural dome from abrasion, and to mitigate collision damage. The space between the two domes is free flooding, and there are 1/4" holes around the edge of the outer dome to facilitate that. In a collision, the water would squish out through the little holes, so the thing is basically a shock absorber. As for calculations, I will paste the window calcs below. It is really just table lookups from PVHO tables, a simple cook book. The seat would have to be calculated with FEA. I didn't have FEA, so I did like the Greeks and Romans. You know why the Partenon is still standing? Try to do engineering calculations using Roman numbers! It was too complex, so they simply made everything massive. The seat is one integral piece of aluminum of ridiculous proportions, and it backs into a 516 gr 70 ring on the end of the hull that is an inch thick and two inches deep. I'm pretty confident that ring isn't going wobbly before something else does. Best, Alec ----------------- pasted ------------------ Viewport Depth Rating per PVHO-1a-1997 The following calculations and specifications are for a sperical sector window with square edge, to include an optional O-ring seal. 1) Determine Conversion Factor (CF) Water temperature = 75 *F (tropical conditions) >From Table 2-2.4, CF = 7 2) Given actual fabricated dimensions tmin = 1.73? Di = 26.847? \t/Di = 0.064 Entering table 2-2.10 with STCP, t/Di = 0.064 Solving for Critical Pressure = 3,460 psi Since Short Term Critical Pressure (STCP) = CF x P = 3,460 psi Solving for P, P = 3,460 / 7 = 494 psi \ Safe operating depth for window = 1,139 fsw On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, I hope this is still you. I've been talking to Greg about a major retro-fit on my K-350--a full hull-diameter dome segment viewport in place of the forward elliptical head. He mentioned having built yours (the 1000' version) while we were talking about thickness and whether to try and use something out of Pete's junk pile. While we were chewing the fat about this, he said that to the best of his recollection, yours started at 1.5" thickness, and that he could build it for me (maybe a 150 degree arc segment) for what I thought was a very reasonable amount. My problem (okay, one of my problems) is that I don't really know how to do the calculations for these things. That said, I'm wondering if a partial copy of yours might not do the trick for my application (it would be tested much shallower, 500 feet or thereabouts). I don't know how you feel about sharing that kind of thing, but I have a picture in my head of an acrylic bow K-350 with some fairings and a Minn-Kota driven Deepworker style propulsion system. I think it would make a great little boat, and so if I can get the viewport and frame designed, then it's going to be built. It's time to play if I'm going to. So, what do you think? Best Regards, Vance Bradley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Oct 30 23:38:24 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:38:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008c01cff4bc$20481e60$60d85b20$@telus.net> Very interesting, Steve, how you have a receiver under the tongue coupler and another receiver at the forward end of the first extension. Having two extensions available is a great idea. While in Bellingham did you notice where the aft part of the my extension has cheeks and a ball to attached to the tongue coupler and then another coupler at the forward end? This is the configuration that IVC uses, I had the same local boat trailer manufacturer build mine up. A second identical extension would easily connect on either end to double the length. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles Sent: October-30-14 12:21 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report Should be there now. Forgot to hit the publish button Steve On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Steve, I'm looking forward to the photos, but I can't find any such "Trlr extension testing" project page. Thanks, Alec On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: All, to follow up my last trailer posting. I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension system. This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will get you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is a basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" ramp scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as important. My solution is mostly untested. I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be adding a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because the surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and will function with any towing vehicle. Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 31 08:37:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 08:37:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trailer Wars Part 2: K-250 Trailer Extension Testing Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Dave, good to hear from you. The extensions stay on the trailer. I have 2 small "C" style channel pieces that hold/secure the extensions at each end. Here were my assumptions when deciding to use fixed wheels vs. swivel for the "wheel skids": - My process will be to get the trailer situated such that maneuvering while using the extension system is minimized. Just backing up, pulling forward as straight as possible. - These skid wheels hopefully won't be contacting any surface in normal operation. - If they do contact the intent is to provide a physical force pushing the actual extension/tongue up/over as needed. - If they were swivel style and happened to contact when side ways I felt they might be likely to drag/catch more easily. Some real life experiences will sort it all out and I am sure I'll be changing things : ) Steve On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 7:49 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > Great Job. are you leaving the extensions on your deck trailer, or did you > create a saddle for them to sit in? One thought on the skid wheel is to > make so that it can swivel in the event that you are turning when it is > contact with the ground. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Should be there now. Forgot to hit the publish button [?] >> Steve >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Steve, >>> >>> I'm looking forward to the photos, but I can't find any such "Trlr >>> extension testing" project page. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>>> All, to follow up my last trailer posting. >>>> >>>> I recently did some limited field testing of my trailer extension >>>> system. This resulted in observations/modifications that I documented under: >>>> >>>> Projects/Other/K-250 Trlr Extension Testing. (lots of photos) >>>> >>>> Designing a truck/trailer based deployment/recovery system that will >>>> get you in/out of the water most of the time is challenging. My system is >>>> a basic starting point that I hope will get get me in most "reasonable" >>>> ramp scenarios. The main focus was getting into deep enough water but the >>>> ability of the system to not drag/catch on the ramp variances is just as >>>> important. My solution is mostly untested. >>>> >>>> I also got a good trailer weight (1130 lbs) and now know I will be >>>> adding a surge braking system. I am choosing surge over electrical because >>>> the surge system does not require additional "off trailer" components and >>>> will function with any towing vehicle. >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 33D.gif Type: image/gif Size: 104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 31 09:08:05 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 09:08:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nekton Gamma In-Reply-To: <1OdURI-1BbbfM0@fwd02.aul.t-online.de> References: <1OdURI-1BbbfM0@fwd02.aul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <8D1C322D7F6C9F7-A48-32353@webmail-va124.sysops.aol.com> Carsten, Do you still have the email address for this man? It has been awhile since I talked to him, and I have lost it. Now I have a desk for this model, and would like to order one. Vance -----Original Message----- From: MerlinSub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Jul 26, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nekton Gamma The owner of this one man company is an engineer and friend of mine. I will contact him. A modell on your desk it a good think to remember you that there is something in your shop to be finish. My modell of the Euronaut is now 10 years old. :-) vbr Carsten schrieb: > Thanks, Carsten. I've seen the model but there were problems with the company supplying to order. Are these people near you, by any chance. I'd love to have a scale model like this. > Vance > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: MerlinSub at t-online.de > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Mon, Jul 26, 2010 10:48 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nekton Gamma > > > Hi Vance, great catch! > > www.modelluboot.de > > Press british flag button on the page, > than go for submarines, than Delta. Enjoy the videos and pictures. > > vbr Carsten > > > > schrieb: > > > > > > > > > > Psubbers, > > > > > > This may be the worst kept secret in the group, but I wanted to let everyone > know that my deal is done and I have acquired the Nekton Gamma submersible. Just > got back to Florida from a gonzo run to the Gulf Coast with my brother Nick to > load a truck with goodies and bring the sub home. Gamma has been dismantled and > in storage for 9 years. There is rust damage to the main ballast tanks, but > otherwise she seems in good shape. I intend to keep you up to date through the > psubs web page as we get her repaired and running again. With photos, of course. > > > > > > The Nekton family (Submaray, Nekton Alpha, the twins Beta and Gamma and, of > course, Delta), have collectively made over 12,000 dives through their 40+ years > of their existence. They are simple, rugged and reliable. In a very real sense, > they were psubs before the phrase was coined--but not psubs of the garage queen > variety. These little vehicles were built to work, and work they did. And still > do. How things were done, and why, should provide a wealth of information and > aha moments for all of us. > > > > > > Several of our members have already offered to lend a hand getting Gamma ready > to hit the water again. You know who you are, guys, and I want to thank you. The > rest of you are welcome to ask any questions you like. Meanwhile, I will be > tracking back through operator/owners from the past for more data. Additionally, > I would very much like to locate the Alpha and Beta. If you know anything about > them (where they are, what they are doing, who owns them currently, etc.) and > feel like sharing, please contact me (off-site or on). > > > > > > So, what's first, you ask? Sorting all those boxes, of course. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Vance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal > CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database > because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages > from our organization. > > If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the > link below or send a blank email message to: > removeme-personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an > automated process and should be complete within five minutes of > our server receiving your request. > > PSUBS.ORG > PO Box 53 > Weare, NH 03281 > 603-529-1100 > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > > > ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles at psubs.org Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 31 12:28:45 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 09:28:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Message-ID: <20141031092845.62353A36@m0005299.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 31 13:22:36 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 10:22:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <20141031092845.62353A36@m0005299.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1414776156.49056.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I think there is a formula for compromise, the amount of compromise is the square root of how deep your pocket is in US funds multiplied by the limit on your credit card. :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/31/14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 31, 2014, 12:28 PM Alan,?? That is the peak hp,? you wouldn't run it continuously at 15 hp, you may have to compromise ;)? we all have to !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 23:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Oct 31 14:01:29 2014 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 18:01:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor In-Reply-To: <1414776156.49056.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1414776156.49056.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479472632.121777.1414778489339.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100156.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Hank,you forgot "divided by your wife"Yes lots of options & compromises here.Doug Jackson has some good videos on his site of experimentaionwith smaller brushless motors & various propellors, for use on a ROV.In his trials he is just running them as is, in a salt water solution; so easy, don'tneed to build a can for them while experimenting with different motors.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:22 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor I think there is a formula for compromise,? the amount of compromise is the square root of how deep your pocket is in US funds multiplied by the limit on your credit card. :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/31/14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, October 31, 2014, 12:28 PM Alan,?? That is the peak hp,? you wouldn't run it continuously at 15 hp, you may have to compromise ;)? we all have to !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 23:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Hi Brian,thanks. That one is 15hp & 8" diameter.The motor I do have is 2hp & 2" diameter but just revstoo fast. Hopefully I will find a solution that doesn't need a gear box.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:25 PM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? What about this one??http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me0909.html?brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Thanks Hank & Graham.I am probably searching for Nirvana here.First I am set on finding a brushless motor solution.I spent multiple hours of Googling, focusing on E-bikes, scooters etc.The E-bikes are mainly hub motors that are narrow with a large diameter, whichis no good as far as drag is concerned, plus you need a big prop to get out beyondthe diameter of the motor. There are units with 5-1 gear box ratios at 48V 1500Wbut they can weigh around 14kg. I bought an 1850W Hobby King BLDC outrunnermotor for $56- & it weighs 530 grams. So more powerful & 1/27th the weight.This does 236 rpm per volt, & from what I've read you don't want to be turning yourprop at more than 3000rpm on a sub. This means I would have to drive this motor with?a maximum of 12V & it's rated for a maximum of 37.To disipate the heat from the stationary inner coil of an outrunner, I may be forced togo with oil compensation; which is what most commercial brushless thrusters are anyway.One solution I can see is to go with a much larger hobby type motor & run it way belowit's maximum voltage to keep the revs down. Also I wouldn't be thrashing the motorwhich may help it live a lot longer.Need to do a lot more study here, then experimentation with motors & props in water.AlanP.S. Hank I was given a motorized Golf trundler & converted it to a trike with ape hangersand pink banana seat for my girls. Boy did they love showing off on that. ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:32 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alan needs a motor ? ? Alan, I just went on ebay and found a 1,000 watt 48v brushless motor with controller for 200 dollars.?? It is for an electric bike.? I bought one for my son a few years back and it was amazing.? He was driving it all over town and towing his buddy on his skate board. Just type in? brushless 48 v motor. You won't need a gearbox either. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: