From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 00:45:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:45:41 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wow,,,,sorry to hear that Hank. Boat ramps tend to have audiences watching especially when you are launching something like that. It's bad enough having something like that happen but even worse with people watching! Good luck with the repair. Unfortunately I know the feeling too well myself. Not sub related so I'll let you know what happened off list. Rick On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 3:11 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and > Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery. The cart > lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after > sliding past the end of the ramp. Normally I have a winch line on it but > it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. > Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we > had no hydraulics for steering or moving. > I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the > trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help. Well in my haste I > forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart > when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto > the pavement :-( Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or > back :-( Well I called a 22 ton crane in and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is > sitting in my driveway. > > But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help > me, I went diving and it was spectacular :-) > Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 01:01:26 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 22:01:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson Message-ID: <20150531220126.7C37813A@m0048138.ppops.net> The slime monster strikes ! Sounds like your coefficient of friction was about .05 Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:11:12 -0700 I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery. The cart lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after sliding past the end of the ramp. Normally I have a winch line on it but it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we had no hydraulics for steering or moving. I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help. Well in my haste I forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto the pavement :-( Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or back :-( Well I called a 22 ton crane in and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is sitting in my driveway. But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help me, I went diving and it was spectacular :-) Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 01:24:16 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 22:24:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01d09c2b$3516ae30$9f440a90$@telus.net> Sorry to hear of the mishap, Hank. Expensive in cash out certainly, but you are very fortunate that no one was injured or worse, particularly if it was a bystander. Big lesson, indeed. Glad to hear that the dive was excellent, well done on you mods and workmanship! I think it's terrific that your wife and brother are there to support your project and help out. Best of luck with the repairs and hope that you are back underwater soon. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: May-31-15 6:11 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery. The cart lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after sliding past the end of the ramp. Normally I have a winch line on it but it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we had no hydraulics for steering or moving. I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help. Well in my haste I forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto the pavement :-( Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or back :-( Well I called a 22 ton crane in and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is sitting in my driveway. But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help me, I went diving and it was spectacular :-) Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 01:44:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 22:44:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: <001c01d09c2b$3516ae30$9f440a90$@telus.net> References: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001c01d09c2b$3516ae30$9f440a90$@telus.net> Message-ID: Hank, You have any photos of the mods? Best Regards, David Colombo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 05:32:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:32:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: References: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <001c01d09c2b$3516ae30$9f440a90$@telus.net> Message-ID: <820608034.2936609.1433151137227.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,did you take a video of your boat launch fail? Would be a hit on Youtube.:)Sorry to hear about your bad day. ?A good lesson for everyone on the perils of submarining.Alan From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 1, 2015 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson Hank, You have any photos of the mods? Best Regards,David Colombo _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 08:33:06 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 13:33:06 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dodgy emails Message-ID: Dear All, I seem to have got some virus or malware onto my computer. However, if you get anything from me about Docusign, don't open it. Its not me. Sorry for inconvenience, I am working on getting rid of it....somehow. Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 17:05:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 23:05:50 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: <1433121072.38930.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Damn, Good luck with the repairs Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 1 juni 2015 3:11 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery. The cart lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after sliding past the end of the ramp. Normally I have a winch line on it but it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we had no hydraulics for steering or moving. I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help. Well in my haste I forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto the pavement :-( Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or back :-( Well I called a 22 ton crane in and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is sitting in my driveway. But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help me, I went diving and it was spectacular :-) Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 17:45:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 17:45:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson Message-ID: <11cdb3.383a19d8.429e2c5c@aol.com> Hank, Really sorry to hear about that. I hope the repairs go smoothly. Jim In a message dated 6/1/2015 4:07:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Damn, Good luck with the repairs Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 1 juni 2015 3:11 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery. The cart lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after sliding past the end of the ramp. Normally I have a winch line on it but it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we had no hydraulics for steering or moving. I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help. Well in my haste I forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto the pavement :-( Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or back :-( Well I called a 22 ton crane in and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is sitting in my driveway. But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help me, I went diving and it was spectacular :-) Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 17:47:56 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:47:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: <11cdb3.383a19d8.429e2c5c@aol.com> Message-ID: <1433195276.11792.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' guys, The repairs are no biggy, just a bent rudder. Gamma needs a new aluminum rudder anyways, Gamma needs to loose some weight in the rear end :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/1/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Monday, June 1, 2015, 5:45 PM Hank, Really sorry to hear about that.? I hope the repairs go smoothly. Jim ? In a message dated 6/1/2015 4:07:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Damn, Good luck with the repairs Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 1 juni 2015 3:11 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson I learned a big expensive lesson today, when I was backing my cart and Gamma down the boat ramp, the ramp was super slimy and slippery.? The cart lost traction and slid down the ramp and submerged about 15 feet down after sliding past the end of the ramp.? Normally I have a winch line on it but it was working so well with posi track, I got over confident. Well my wife and I retrieved the cart, but the engine was flooded and we had no hydraulics for steering or moving. I bypassed the hydraulics and tried to pull the sub and cart onto the trailer with my brother pulling with his truck to help.? Well in my haste I forgot the safety strap that prevents the sub from sliding off the cart when going up a steep grade. Well Gamma slid backwards off the cart onto the pavement :-(? Wrecked my rudder and blocked the ramp, can't go ahead or back :-(? Well I called a 22 ton crane in? and 1,000 dollars later Gamma is sitting in my driveway. But while I was waiting for my brother to drive out to the lake to help me, I went diving and it was spectacular? :-) Gamma is so rock solid with the new ballast tank system.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 19:43:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:43:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax In-Reply-To: <20150531161124.6772AA89@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20150531161124.6772AA89@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, I believe Mark Ragan had a set up on his training sub where he had a coax running to a float with a CB antenna. Obviously this was a unique scenario as I believe the sub was always operated in very shallow water in this training configuration. Not what you might be looking for but the only application like what you are describing that I have knowledge of. Steve On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Has anyone successfully run coax up to the surface off of a real for > communication? > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 20:07:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 17:07:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <20150601170741.7D528590@m0005309.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 1 23:54:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <4x5gkjbbcgfj4fv2aspap3e4.1433216952624@email.android.com> Brian, I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. Keith (K6FEE) Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 00:15:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:15:51 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax In-Reply-To: <4x5gkjbbcgfj4fv2aspap3e4.1433216952624@email.android.com> References: <4x5gkjbbcgfj4fv2aspap3e4.1433216952624@email.android.com> Message-ID: I use coax cable strapped to one of my ROV tethers for scanning sonar signal and low light camera signal down to 600ft. Keith Gordon On 2/06/2015, at 3:54 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Brian, > I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. > > Keith (K6FEE) > > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 01:14:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 22:14:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <20150601221417.7732B3CD@m0048140.ppops.net> Hi Keith, Was the coax any particular brand? Most of the coax that I see has a solid plastic core with a wire in the middle. So if that is a solid piece then should not compress too much. That is encouraging to know !! , just have to figure out a comutator. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:15:51 +1200 I use coax cable strapped to one of my ROV tethers for scanning sonar signal and low light camera signal down to 600ft. Keith Gordon On 2/06/2015, at 3:54 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Brian, > I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. > > Keith (K6FEE) > > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 01:54:26 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 17:54:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax In-Reply-To: <20150601221417.7732B3CD@m0048140.ppops.net> References: <20150601221417.7732B3CD@m0048140.ppops.net> Message-ID: <366071F4-AFE1-4AF3-AED6-A20FD5C895E6@xtra.co.nz> That sounds the same Brian, with a black external casing. If needed I can take photo and send. Keith Sent from my iPad > On 2/06/2015, at 5:14 pm, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Keith, > Was the coax any particular brand? Most of the coax that I see has a solid plastic core with a wire in the middle. So if that is a solid piece then should not compress too much. That is encouraging to know !! , just have to figure out a comutator. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:15:51 +1200 > > I use coax cable strapped to one of my ROV tethers for scanning sonar signal and low light camera signal down to 600ft. > Keith Gordon > >> On 2/06/2015, at 3:54 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Brian, >> I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. >> >> Keith (K6FEE) >> >> Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 02:01:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 08:01:55 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar In-Reply-To: <1039481415.844298.1432765169611.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <505757013.198388.1431682902778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1721279750.1014204.1431698038181.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1039481415.844298.1432765169611.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan But there are only 3 connectors on my sensor and the diagrams show five for these... Regards Antoine On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Antoine, > airmar produce most of the transducers for lowrance. > Below is an airmar link to several common wiring diagrams. > Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams? > > > > > > > > Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams? > > Below is a list of commonly used wiring diagrams for popular fishfinder > and ... > View on faq.airmar.com > > Preview by Yahoo > > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2015 9:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar > > Hi Cliff, > For my Pilot Fish project I ordered a cheap Airmar P79 sensor also with > NMEA 183 comms to use as a depth sounder, but I am struggling to find info > on the pinout: which cable color is which... did you find info on this? > > regards > Antoine > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > > > Alan, I am not sure packaging a fish finder sounder transducer in a 1-atm > pod is necessary for 500ft. My guess is most of these are fully potted and > cab take the pressure. > > BTW, I am implementing a Airmar DST800 DST800 ?Thru-Hull, Smart? Sensor - > Airmar Marine Transducers > part > of my R300 upgrade. This sensor will give me altitude, speed and water > temp. The sensor sends out a NMEA 0183 ASCII sentence string that I will > connect via RS232 serial feed into a coprocessor on my PLC. I then can > parse the string to get data. I am using the same coprocessor so parse > another transducer that gives me roll, pitch and heading. This transducer > is packaged in a custom 1-atm anodized aluminum housing. > > I looked at ROV sounders but these are expensive at $1500-$4000 each where > these fish finder sounders are cheap. > > Cliff > > > > Cliff Redus > Redus Engineering > USA mobile: 830-931-1280 > cliffordredus at sbcglobal.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2015 4:41 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar > > Have just come back from the local boat show after talking to a couple of > exhibitors about sonar / depth sounders. > I am still finding my way here. Was told I could mount a forward looking > sonar inside > a fiberglass hull & would loose about 15% of my range as apposed to in > water mounting. > They said the depth sounder worked better than the forward looking sonar > through fiberglass. > Why not have a small view port type arrangement in the bottom or up front > of the submarine > with a fiberglass plate in it. Then glue the transducer to that. > For a 3" diameter fiberglass plate .55" thick, I get a 4000ft crush depth. > Safety factor of 4 for > plastics I think, so 500ft capable operating depth. > Quote from installation pdfs below...... > As an alternative to transom mounting, it is possible on many > fiberglass-hulled boats to glue the transducer on the inside of > the boat hull. Since fiberglass has similar sonar > characteristics as water, the sonar signal can pass through > the boat hull with minimal loss. The hull of the boat must be > single layer construction (not double-hulled) Also, any air > trapped in the lamination of the fiberglass would prevent the > sonar signal from passing through. > Inside the hull installations require no holes be drilled into the > boat and through experimentation, high-speed operation > comparable to transom mounting can be achieved. Two-part > slow cure epoxy (not included) is required to glue the transducer in place. > ......*In-hull:* Installed against the inside of the hull bottom, the > in-hull transducer sends its signal through the hull. ?Shoot through hull? > transducers do not need direct water contact. They?re glued to the inside > of the hull with silicone or epoxy. An in-hull transducer is a good choice > for a trailered boat, a vessel with a stepped hull, and for other types of > high performance hull designs, as there is no drag, hull penetration or > potential for fouling. No integrated temperature sensor. Can be installed > while boat is in the water. For deadrise angles up to 30 degrees. As with > thru-hulls, the selected location should be aft and close to the centerline > so that the transducer is in the water at all times. > In-hull transducers need solid fiberglass at the mounting location; no > foam or plywood coring material, or air pockets. A typical 600W transducer > can transmit through 1/2" to 5/8" (12-16mm) of fiberglass. To install > inside a cored hull, find a location with no coring or remove the core > material. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2015 5:10 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar > > Looks really nice Hank, but couldn't find a price. > They are marketing to ship owners not recreational boat market. > Had looked at other 3d forward scanners & they are quite a bit more than > the Sinrad 2d. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 11/05/2015, at 12:26 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > > > > > Alan, > > Check this system out, you probably have seen it. This would be very > nice to have. > > Hank > >> --- On Sun, 5/10/15, hank pronk > wrote: > >> > >> From: hank pronk > > >> Subject: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar > >> To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > " < > hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > > > >> Received: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 8:25 AM > >> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.dosits.org/technology/locatingobjectsusingsonar/forwardlookingsonar/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 02:11:27 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 23:11:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <60x5590yxtpxysqoeislcrcy.1433225173766@email.android.com> Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >That sounds the same Brian, with a black external casing. If needed I can take photo and send. >Keith > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 2/06/2015, at 5:14 pm, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Keith, >> Was the coax any particular brand? Most of the coax that I see has a solid plastic core with a wire in the middle. So if that is a solid piece then should not compress too much. That is encouraging to know !! , just have to figure out a comutator. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:15:51 +1200 >> >> I use coax cable strapped to one of my ROV tethers for scanning sonar signal and low light camera signal down to 600ft. >> Keith Gordon >> >>> On 2/06/2015, at 3:54 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Brian, >>> I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. >>> >>> Keith (K6FEE) >>> >>> Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 03:15:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 19:15:01 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar In-Reply-To: References: <505757013.198388.1431682902778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1721279750.1014204.1431698038181.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1039481415.844298.1432765169611.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Antoine, so you just have the model with the depth sounder? It says in the small print....Note that depth, temperature, and speed are referenced in most of these diagrams. If speed or temperature is not included in your transducer, these color wires may not be present inside the cable. Would you not just ignore the pin out for the other sensors. Example diagram linked to below. only use the pin out for the depth sounder. http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_849.pdf If this is not helpful post again. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/06/2015, at 6:01 pm, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Alan > But there are only 3 connectors on my sensor and the diagrams show five for these... > Regards > Antoine > >> On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Antoine, >> airmar produce most of the transducers for lowrance. >> Below is an airmar link to several common wiring diagrams. >> Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams? >> Below is a list of commonly used wiring diagrams for popular fishfinder and ... >> View on faq.airmar.com >> Preview by Yahoo >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 9:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar >> >> Hi Cliff, >> For my Pilot Fish project I ordered a cheap Airmar P79 sensor also with NMEA 183 comms to use as a depth sounder, but I am struggling to find info on the pinout: which cable color is which... did you find info on this? >> >> regards >> Antoine >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Alan, I am not sure packaging a fish finder sounder transducer in a 1-atm pod is necessary for 500ft. My guess is most of these are fully potted and cab take the pressure. >> >> BTW, I am implementing a Airmar DST800 DST800 ?Thru-Hull, Smart? Sensor - Airmar Marine Transducers part of my R300 upgrade. This sensor will give me altitude, speed and water temp. The sensor sends out a NMEA 0183 ASCII sentence string that I will connect via RS232 serial feed into a coprocessor on my PLC. I then can parse the string to get data. I am using the same coprocessor so parse another transducer that gives me roll, pitch and heading. This transducer is packaged in a custom 1-atm anodized aluminum housing. >> >> I looked at ROV sounders but these are expensive at $1500-$4000 each where these fish finder sounders are cheap. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> Redus Engineering >> USA mobile: 830-931-1280 >> cliffordredus at sbcglobal.com >> >> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 4:41 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar >> >> Have just come back from the local boat show after talking to a couple of >> exhibitors about sonar / depth sounders. >> I am still finding my way here. Was told I could mount a forward looking sonar inside >> a fiberglass hull & would loose about 15% of my range as apposed to in water mounting. >> They said the depth sounder worked better than the forward looking sonar through fiberglass. >> Why not have a small view port type arrangement in the bottom or up front of the submarine >> with a fiberglass plate in it. Then glue the transducer to that. >> For a 3" diameter fiberglass plate .55" thick, I get a 4000ft crush depth. Safety factor of 4 for >> plastics I think, so 500ft capable operating depth. >> Quote from installation pdfs below...... >> As an alternative to transom mounting, it is possible on many >> fiberglass-hulled boats to glue the transducer on the inside of >> the boat hull. Since fiberglass has similar sonar >> characteristics as water, the sonar signal can pass through >> the boat hull with minimal loss. The hull of the boat must be >> single layer construction (not double-hulled) Also, any air >> trapped in the lamination of the fiberglass would prevent the >> sonar signal from passing through. >> Inside the hull installations require no holes be drilled into the >> boat and through experimentation, high-speed operation >> comparable to transom mounting can be achieved. Two-part >> slow cure epoxy (not included) is required to glue the transducer in place. >> ......In-hull: Installed against the inside of the hull bottom, the in-hull transducer sends its signal through the hull. ?Shoot through hull? transducers do not need direct water contact. They?re glued to the inside of the hull with silicone or epoxy. An in-hull transducer is a good choice for a trailered boat, a vessel with a stepped hull, and for other types of high performance hull designs, as there is no drag, hull penetration or potential for fouling. No integrated temperature sensor. Can be installed while boat is in the water. For deadrise angles up to 30 degrees. As with thru-hulls, the selected location should be aft and close to the centerline so that the transducer is in the water at all times. >> In-hull transducers need solid fiberglass at the mounting location; no foam or plywood coring material, or air pockets. A typical 600W transducer can transmit through 1/2" to 5/8" (12-16mm) of fiberglass. To install inside a cored hull, find a location with no coring or remove the core material. >> Alan >> >> >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 5:10 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar >> >> Looks really nice Hank, but couldn't find a price. >> They are marketing to ship owners not recreational boat market. >> Had looked at other 3d forward scanners & they are quite a bit more than >> the Sinrad 2d. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 11/05/2015, at 12:26 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > >> > Alan, >> > Check this system out, you probably have seen it. This would be very nice to have. >> > Hank >> >> --- On Sun, 5/10/15, hank pronk wrote: >> >> >> >> From: hank pronk >> >> Subject: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar >> >> To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" >> >> Received: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 8:25 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.dosits.org/technology/locatingobjectsusingsonar/forwardlookingsonar/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 04:19:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 08:19:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar In-Reply-To: References: <505757013.198388.1431682902778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1721279750.1014204.1431698038181.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1039481415.844298.1432765169611.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1537419994.3847149.1433233189816.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Antoine,I had another look at this & it says that the P79 is an in hull transducer that shoots throughfibreglass & no other material.Alan From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar Hi Antoine,so you just have the model with the depth sounder?It says in the small print....Note that depth, temperature, and speed are referenced in most of these diagrams.? If speed or temperature is not included in your transducer, these color wires may not be present inside the cable.Would you not just ignore the pin out for the other sensors. Example diagram linked to below.only use the?pin out for the depth sounder.http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_849.pdfIf this is not helpful post again.Alan Sent from my iPad On 2/06/2015, at 6:01 pm, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks AlanBut there are only 3 connectors on my sensor and the diagrams show five for these...RegardsAntoine On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Antoine,airmar produce most of the transducers for lowrance.Below is an airmar link to several common wiring diagrams.Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams? | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | Airmar FAQ - Common Wiring Diagrams?Below is a list of commonly used wiring diagrams for popular fishfinder and ... | | | | View on faq.airmar.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | Alan From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar Hi Cliff,?For my Pilot Fish project I ordered a cheap Airmar P79 sensor also with NMEA 183 comms to use as a depth sounder, but I am struggling to find info on the pinout: which cable color is which... did you find info on this? regardsAntoine On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I am not sure packaging a fish finder sounder transducer in a 1-atm pod is necessary for 500ft.? My guess is most of these are fully potted and cab take the pressure.? BTW, I am implementing a Airmar DST800?DST800 ?Thru-Hull, Smart? Sensor - Airmar Marine Transducers?part of my R300 upgrade.? This sensor will give me altitude, speed and water temp.? The sensor sends out a NMEA 0183 ASCII sentence string that I will connect via RS232 serial?feed?into a coprocessor on my PLC.? I then can parse the string to get data.? I am using the same coprocessor so parse another transducer that gives me roll, pitch and heading.? This transducer is packaged in a custom 1-atm anodized aluminum housing. I looked at ROV sounders but these are expensive at $1500-$4000 each where these fish finder sounders are cheap.? Cliff Cliff Redus Redus Engineering USA mobile:??830-931-1280 cliffordredus at sbcglobal.com From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 4:41 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar Have just come back from the local boat show after talking to a couple ofexhibitors about sonar / depth sounders.I am still finding my way here. Was told I could mount a forward looking sonar insidea fiberglass hull & would loose about 15% of my range as apposed to in water mounting.They said the depth sounder worked better than the forward looking sonar through fiberglass.Why not have a small view port type arrangement in the bottom or up front of the submarinewith a fiberglass plate in it. Then glue the transducer to that.For a 3" diameter fiberglass plate .55" thick, I get a 4000ft crush depth. Safety factor of 4 forplastics I think, so 500ft capable operating depth.Quote from installation pdfs below......As an alternative to transom mounting, it is possible on manyfiberglass-hulled boats to glue the transducer on the inside ofthe boat hull. Since fiberglass has similar sonarcharacteristics as water, the sonar signal can pass throughthe boat hull with minimal loss. The hull of the boat must besingle layer construction (not double-hulled) Also, any airtrapped in the lamination of the fiberglass would prevent thesonar signal from passing through.Inside the hull installations require no holes be drilled into theboat and through experimentation, high-speed operationcomparable to transom mounting can be achieved. Two-partslow cure epoxy (not included) is required to glue the transducer in place.......In-hull:?Installed against the inside of the hull bottom, the in-hull transducer sends its signal through the hull. ?Shoot through hull? transducers do not need direct water contact. They?re glued to the inside of the hull with silicone or epoxy. An in-hull transducer is a good choice for a trailered boat, a vessel with a stepped hull, and for other types of high performance hull designs, as there is no drag, hull penetration or potential for fouling. No integrated temperature sensor. Can be installed while boat is in the water. For deadrise angles up to 30 degrees. As with thru-hulls, the selected location should be aft and close to the centerline so that the transducer is in the water at all times.In-hull transducers need solid fiberglass at the mounting location; no foam or plywood coring material, or air pockets. A typical 600W transducer can transmit through 1/2" to 5/8" (12-16mm) of fiberglass. To install inside a cored hull, find a location with no coring or remove the core material.Alan From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 5:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar Looks really nice Hank, but couldn't find a price. They are marketing to ship owners not recreational boat market. Had looked at other 3d forward scanners & they are quite a bit more than the Sinrad 2d. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/05/2015, at 12:26 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, > Check this system out, you probably have seen it.? This would be very nice to have. > Hank >> --- On Sun, 5/10/15, hank pronk wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk >> Subject: DOSITS: Forward Looking Sonar >> To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" >> Received: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 8:25 AM >> >> >> >> http://www.dosits.org/technology/locatingobjectsusingsonar/forwardlookingsonar/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 07:51:04 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: <1433245864.21672.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good. I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 11:10:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 08:10:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: <20150602081047.67723BFB@m0005296.ppops.net> Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways ! Video, digital, voice, and CW !! brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 Brian, My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good. I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 14:10:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 11:10:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <20150602111036.91C11FD4@m0005312.ppops.net> Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? Brian KK6IRC --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 Brian, I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. Keith (K6FEE) Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 15:59:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 12:59:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: Hank, what was the size of the spool, you used for that depth? Best Regards,David Colombo -------- Original message -------- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 06/02/2015 8:10 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways !? Video, digital, voice, and CW !! brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 Brian, My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good.? I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 16:01:02 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 13:01:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test Message-ID: Hi guys, just checking to see if my emails are going thru. Best Regards,David Colombo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 16:23:21 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:23:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I got it. ~ Doug S. On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi guys, just checking to see if my emails are going thru. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 16:51:57 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 20:51:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2060289834.4509309.1433278317518.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi David,last post I can see from you was 13th May.Alan From: Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 8:01 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test Hi guys, just checking to see if my emails are going thru. Best Regards,David Colombo _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 16:53:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 20:53:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1717482822.4505288.1433278427502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sorry, got one on June 1 also.Alan From: Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 8:01 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ping test Hi guys, just checking to see if my emails are going thru. Best Regards,David Colombo _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 17:03:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 14:03:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433279024.8420.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, I did not have the umbilical on a spool, it was 1.5 in dia hot tub hose and it just floated on the surface. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/2/15, Seaquestor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 2, 2015, 3:59 PM Hank, what was the size of the spool, you used for that depth? Best Regards,David Colombo -------- Original message -------- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 06/02/2015 8:10 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways !? Video, digital, voice, and CW !! brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 Brian, My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good.? I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever.? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 17:40:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:40:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax In-Reply-To: <20150602111036.91C11FD4@m0005312.ppops.net> References: <20150602111036.91C11FD4@m0005312.ppops.net> Message-ID: <556e22e7.8483460a.23b2.658c@mx.google.com> Brian, New Zealand is on top of the planet. It is obvious when you think of it. Earth is floating in space. Most of the people, cars and trucks are in Northern hemisphere making it the heavy side. So if we are floating then the heavy side is on the bottom. We are on top. Please remember this. ;<) Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 3 June 2015 6:11 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? Brian KK6IRC --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 Brian, I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. Keith (K6FEE) Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 17:42:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:42:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: Brian, Try www.pasternack.com for rotary coax connector. There kinda pricey @ $130 each but definately what your looking for. Keith T Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways ! Video, digital, voice, and CW !! > > >brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax >Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 > >Brian, >My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good. I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 17:46:06 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 14:46:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433281566.69422.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, You will need a way to make it buoyant, otherwise you will get tangled in it or worse, it could drape under your sub and get hooked on something. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/2/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 2, 2015, 5:42 PM Brian, Try www.pasternack.com for rotary coax connector. There kinda pricey @ $130 each but definately what your looking for. Keith T Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways !? Video, digital, voice, and CW !! > > >brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax >Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 > >Brian, >My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good.? I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever.? >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 17:46:13 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:46:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: Brian, I'm in the Sacramento, Ca area. I haven't used my code skills in a while and was just thinking about polishing them up a few days ago. Coincidence? I think not!..lol Keith T K6FEE Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? > >Brian > >KK6IRC > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 > >Brian, >I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. > >Keith (K6FEE) > >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 18:21:09 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 15:21:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433283669.42283.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, The mods are on my project page Gamma restoration. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/1/15, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] big lesson To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 1, 2015, 1:44 AM Hank, You have any photos of the mods? Best Regards,David Colombo -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 18:25:59 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 15:25:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <20150602152559.7D52D4C8@m0005309.ppops.net> Well that's good because I'm just learning, and it's a hell of a learning curve ( at least for me!) I've got a little rig set up here at my house, it's CW only, but it's on the 40 meter band. In the evening there is a lot of activity, also early in the morning. I'm sure I could hear you from Sacramento. I have a 66' dipole antenna (33 on each side) set up in my back yard. I still have a hard time separating the letters, especially when these guys are going at 30 wpm or sometimes faster! 73 Brian KK6IRC --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:46:13 -0700 Brian, I'm in the Sacramento, Ca area. I haven't used my code skills in a while and was just thinking about polishing them up a few days ago. Coincidence? I think not!..lol Keith T K6FEE Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? > >Brian > >KK6IRC > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 > >Brian, >I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. > >Keith (K6FEE) > >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 18:30:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 15:30:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: <20150602153012.7D52D43C@m0005309.ppops.net> That would probably work, Thanks Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:42:19 -0700 Brian, Try www.pasternack.com for rotary coax connector. There kinda pricey @ $130 each but definately what your looking for. Keith T Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways ! Video, digital, voice, and CW !! > > >brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax >Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 > >Brian, >My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good. I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 18:31:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 15:31:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Message-ID: <20150602153134.7D52D420@m0005309.ppops.net> A big buoy to float it to the surface. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 14:46:06 -0700 Brian, You will need a way to make it buoyant, otherwise you will get tangled in it or worse, it could drape under your sub and get hooked on something. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/2/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 2, 2015, 5:42 PM Brian, Try www.pasternack.com for rotary coax connector. There kinda pricey @ $130 each but definately what your looking for. Keith T Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Great to hear that Hank, that means I can run an antenna to the surface and communicate in a number of different ways !? Video, digital, voice, and CW !! > > >brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coax >Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:51:04 -0700 > >Brian, >My log salvage ROV used a coax for video signal to the surface and the picture was amazing and the audio was just as good.? I used simple cheapest coax and we went to 350 feet with no issues ever.? >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 22:00:46 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 19:00:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: Brian, Yeah some of those OM's can really fly! One of my friends who has had his ticket since the 50's does 60 wpm! I catch bits and pieces at that speed! I just moved and my shack is completely appart. I'll let you know when I have a rig on the air and we can chat. So Cal 10m would be a better bet for that hop. Or 6m even 2m. I worked Hawii on 2 when the duct was in. Ok, hijacked the thread enough. Feel free to email me direct. Keith T K6FEE Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Well that's good because I'm just learning, and it's a hell of a learning curve ( at least for me!) I've got a little rig set up here at my house, it's CW only, but it's on the 40 meter band. In the evening there is a lot of activity, also early in the morning. I'm sure I could hear you from Sacramento. I have a 66' dipole antenna (33 on each side) set up in my back yard. I still have a hard time separating the letters, especially when these guys are going at 30 wpm or sometimes faster! > >73 >Brian > >KK6IRC > > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:46:13 -0700 > >Brian, > >I'm in the Sacramento, Ca area. I haven't used my code skills in a while and was just thinking about polishing them up a few days ago. Coincidence? I think not!..lol > >Keith T >K6FEE > >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? >> >>Brian >> >>KK6IRC >> >>--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >>From: via Personal_Submersibles >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >>Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 >> >>Brian, >>I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. >> >>Keith (K6FEE) >> >>Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 2 22:29:54 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 19:29:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Message-ID: <20150602192954.7707B28C@m0048139.ppops.net> Keith, Please send my your e-mail off line. Thanks Brian brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 19:00:46 -0700 Brian, Yeah some of those OM's can really fly! One of my friends who has had his ticket since the 50's does 60 wpm! I catch bits and pieces at that speed! I just moved and my shack is completely appart. I'll let you know when I have a rig on the air and we can chat. So Cal 10m would be a better bet for that hop. Or 6m even 2m. I worked Hawii on 2 when the duct was in. Ok, hijacked the thread enough. Feel free to email me direct. Keith T K6FEE Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Well that's good because I'm just learning, and it's a hell of a learning curve ( at least for me!) I've got a little rig set up here at my house, it's CW only, but it's on the 40 meter band. In the evening there is a lot of activity, also early in the morning. I'm sure I could hear you from Sacramento. I have a 66' dipole antenna (33 on each side) set up in my back yard. I still have a hard time separating the letters, especially when these guys are going at 30 wpm or sometimes faster! > >73 >Brian > >KK6IRC > > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:46:13 -0700 > >Brian, > >I'm in the Sacramento, Ca area. I haven't used my code skills in a while and was just thinking about polishing them up a few days ago. Coincidence? I think not!..lol > >Keith T >K6FEE > >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>Keith, Where are you located on the planet? Are you fluent in Morse? >> >>Brian >> >>KK6IRC >> >>--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >>From: via Personal_Submersibles >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Coax >>Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:54:41 -0700 >> >>Brian, >>I'd be concerned about water migration down the sheild and or core of the coax, especially at higher(deeper) pressures related to diving. You could try flooded (no not water, a water proofing compound) coax, that is designed for wet environments. >> >>Keith (K6FEE) >> >>Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 3 21:47:13 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 18:47:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld Message-ID: <20150603184713.96D2FE8A@m0005298.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 3 23:24:26 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 20:24:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld In-Reply-To: <20150603184713.96D2FE8A@m0005298.ppops.net> References: <20150603184713.96D2FE8A@m0005298.ppops.net> Message-ID: <003401d09e75$f6ff40b0$e4fdc210$@telus.net> Excellent. There is no going back now, Brian. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-03-15 6:47 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld Just did my first tig weld ! Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 4 13:31:16 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 10:31:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld Message-ID: <20150604103116.BEFC4201@m0005312.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 4 17:52:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:52:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld Message-ID: Brian, It's all about arc length, puddle size and practice. ;) Keith T Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 4 18:50:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Rudholm via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:50:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tig weld In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out this YouTube site for welding tips: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq70AnPkj4-UApS_m_6mPw JimR On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 2:52 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > It's all about arc length, puddle size and practice. ;) > > Keith T > > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 10:17:53 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 15:17:53 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Support Boat? Message-ID: Hi All, Check out this boat that is working in our harbour at the moment. 2x cranes. Would make the perfect dive support boat. Im going to ask them if they can take me out for a deep test. They are bound to say no. But I reckon its worth a try.... James ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: boat.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 134224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 17:34:59 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 21:34:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Support Boat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1017003270.7252667.1433540099364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Ideal boat James,maybe if you turned up with your sub in tow & could get local mediainvolved; they might get interested & be able to justify the expense based on free advertising.Of course you would have to do a deep dive straight after the test.Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2015 2:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Support Boat? Hi All,?Check out this boat that is working in our harbour at the moment.? 2x cranes.? Would make the perfect dive support boat.? Im going to ask them if they can take me out for a deep test.? They are bound to say no.? But I reckon its worth a try....?James? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: boat.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 134224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 18:16:04 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shrouds The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they *will* fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil *and the bubble stores the pressure*. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancy Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 18:37:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 15:37:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433543831.42295.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, Sweet! Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 21:20:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters@waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 20:20:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Alec, So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015 5:16 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shrouds The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancy Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 22:18:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 19:18:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433557127.280.YahooMailBasic@web163203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015 5:16 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 23:11:57 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 20:11:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433557127.280.YahooMailBasic@web163203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1433557127.280.YahooMailBasic@web163203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01d0a006$8d030e20$a7092a60$@telus.net> What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015 5:16 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 5 23:28:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 20:28:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <000c01d0a006$8d030e20$a7092a60$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1433561330.51298.YahooMailBasic@web163204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Tim, It's basically a 20' 150 hp outboard...good for towing the sub out to the dive site. I have 2 other larger boats but they aren't as easily towed on the highway. I provided support for Persistence, Dan H's K-350 sub when we did the deep test for that. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 11:11 PM What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al?? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the? video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015? 5:16 PM? (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought? I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub? trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business? emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could? barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining? heavily for several days previously. Three times there were? emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and? damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake,? the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened? last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at? Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would? be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof,? because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most? lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead? on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before? leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the? spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed? the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched? it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was? jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little? twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is? made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade? tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the? convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the? lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect? and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes? lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the? controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are? optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of? our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was? out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can? operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed? controller fails. They're electronic, they will? fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the? thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died? altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to? some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an? Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares? (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the? bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a? small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an? issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be? handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the? dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there? is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil? and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing,? the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the? pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking? pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even? though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are? diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor? caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more? easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted? by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the? oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of? just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't? suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a? float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a? charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow? back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats? for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes? required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but? more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between? the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for? once offered a really good view. We typically made our way? down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy,? trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking? aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging? motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub? compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the? surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but? we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not? anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we? stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat? bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't? rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely? immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility? would improve significantly, and the water changed from? green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to? put together. The only "incidents" we had were a? cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of? the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220? feet - fortunately reversing got us right off? it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 02:03:56 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:03:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433561330.51298.YahooMailBasic@web163204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <000c01d0a006$8d030e20$a7092a60$@telus.net> <1433561330.51298.YahooMailBasic@web163204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01d0a01e$93758540$ba608fc0$@telus.net> Sounds interesting, Al. Towing the sub, following its track, and keeping other boats away seem like good features for a chase/support boat. Heavy lift capability could also be handy. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 8:29 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Tim, It's basically a 20' 150 hp outboard...good for towing the sub out to the dive site. I have 2 other larger boats but they aren't as easily towed on the highway. I provided support for Persistence, Dan H's K-350 sub when we did the deep test for that. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 11:11 PM What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al?? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015? 5:16 PM? (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought? I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub? trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business? emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could? barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining? heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and? damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake,? the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened? last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at? Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would? be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof,? because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most? lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead? on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before? leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the? spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed? the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched? it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little? twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is? made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade? tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the? convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect? and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes? lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are? optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of? our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can? operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will? fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died? altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an? Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares? (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the? bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an? issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the? dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil? and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing,? the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the? pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking? pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are? diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor? caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted? by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the? oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of? just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't? suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a? float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a? charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow? back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats? for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes? required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but? more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between? the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way? down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy,? trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking? aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging? motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub? compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the? surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but? we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we? stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat? bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't? rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility? would improve significantly, and the water changed from? green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to? put together. The only "incidents" we had were a? cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of? the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220? feet - fortunately reversing got us right off? it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 08:20:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 05:20:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 10:45:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 10:45:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the offer, but Snoopy is 12 volt. The controllers are Zavsza brand called Canakit. These Canadians... nothing good comes from them, eh? > On Jun 6, 2015, at 8:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. > I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. > If you want the controller send your address of list. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > > Hello friends, > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with > Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was > supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but > unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended > up being just Snoopy. > On the way up the weather was terrible, with > driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the > road. It had been raining heavily for several days > previously. Three times there were emergency announcements > about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer > I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain > is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility > for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy > and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say > Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced > the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those > were clearer than most lakes. > Here's a few things we learned: > 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern > thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the > enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found > it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. > However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a > spare speed controller, so switched it out. > The replacement died within five minutes on the > second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the > prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a > little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to > the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and > shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller > during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the > prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so > the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, > the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little > below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those > specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side > thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. > Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a > controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're > electronic, they will fail. > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and > this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They > were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, > and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the > seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm > supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva > trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder > hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out > to be pressurized. > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity > of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long > as the compression volume of that air could be handled by > the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) > Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds > the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble > of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the > bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble > squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the > motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the > seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are > fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small > bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going > to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > 3) An easy way to add > buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by > placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the > oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of > just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more > than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't > suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a > float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow > back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats > for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes > required. > Most of our dives were along a very steep > incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges > and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the > good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using > very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of > a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging > trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing > our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly > negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple > of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact > at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet > above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for > a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't > rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely > immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility > would improve significantly, and the water changed from > green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. > I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to > put together. The only "incidents" we had were a > cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of > the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 > feet - fortunately reversing got us right off > it. > > Best, > Alec > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 12:50:39 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 06:50:39 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Alec for the details. It is of great value to the rest of us, and mainly the ones still building such as myself with the K-350. I was a little surprised though to hear that the bladder wasn't able to handle the expansion of the small amount of air left in the motors. I wonder if it would help if the bladder were more pliable? Rick On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello friends, > > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd > share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott > Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up > being just Snoopy. > > On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could > barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several > days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about > floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it > rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the > runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when > Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be > rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty > feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. > > Here's a few things we learned: > > 1) Of props and shrouds > The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed > down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the > issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I > had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. > > The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at > least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current > Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip > causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had > already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going > to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes > lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was > protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, > so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was > out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical > system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they > *will* fail. > > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a > puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died > altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we > thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that > sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I > disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor > turned out to be pressurized. > > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the > system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that > air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation > bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the > pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you > will get water added to the oil *and the bubble stores the pressure*. > Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the > pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, > you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance > with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving > deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > > 3) An easy way to add buoyancy > Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one > occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one > float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting > off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I > just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the > ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K > sub, no special tubes required. > > Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but > more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep > terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly > negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking > aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the > water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, > but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused > difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five > feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a > pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an > inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about > 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed > from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a > video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we > had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the > crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately > reversing got us right off it. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 12:55:07 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 09:55:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433609707.4566.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> DW's come from Canada :-)-------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/6/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 6, 2015, 10:45 AM Thanks for the offer, but Snoopy is 12 volt. The controllers are Zavsza brand called Canakit. These Canadians... nothing good comes from them, eh? > On Jun 6, 2015, at 8:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? > I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. > If you want the controller send your address of list. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > > Hello friends, > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with > Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was > supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but > unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended > up being just Snoopy. > On the way up the weather was terrible, with > driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the > road. It had been raining heavily for several days > previously. Three times there were emergency announcements > about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer > I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain > is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility > for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy > and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say > Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced > the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those > were clearer than most lakes. > Here's a few things we learned: > 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern > thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the > enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found > it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. > However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a > spare speed controller, so switched it out. > The replacement died within five minutes on the > second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the > prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a > little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to > the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and > shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller > during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the > prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so > the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, > the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little > below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those > specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side > thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. > Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a > controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're > electronic, they will fail. > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and > this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They > were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, > and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the > seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm > supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva > trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder > hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out > to be pressurized. > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity > of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long > as the compression volume of that air could be handled by > the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) > Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds > the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble > of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the > bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble > squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the > motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the > seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are > fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small > bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going > to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > 3) An easy way to add > buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by > placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the > oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of > just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more > than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't > suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a > float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow > back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats > for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes > required. > Most of our dives were along a very steep > incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges > and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the > good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using > very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of > a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging > trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing > our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly > negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple > of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact > at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet > above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for > a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't > rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely > immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility > would improve significantly, and the water changed from > green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. > I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to > put together. The only "incidents" we had were a > cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of > the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 > feet - fortunately reversing got us right off > it. > > Best, > Alec > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 14:24:57 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 14:24:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling Message-ID: <1a9247.4baedfbb.42a494f9@aol.com> All, I'll be pulling a 12-foot, enclosed trailer to the convention from Columbia, Missouri. I have a substantial amount of unused capacity going out and am coming back empty. If you have anything you need hauled either way and are anywhere near my route (Interstate 64) to Charlottesville, VA, I'll be happy to assist. Thanks, Jim Todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 14:32:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters@waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 13:32:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling Message-ID: if anyone wants any parts that I had for sale. Jim might be able to haul them especially something like that motor that would be hard to ship. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/06/2015 1:24 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling All, I'll be pulling a 12-foot, enclosed trailer to the convention from Columbia, Missouri. I have a substantial amount of unused capacity going out and am coming back empty. If you have anything you need hauled either way and are anywhere near my route (Interstate 64) to Charlottesville, VA, I'll be happy to assist. Thanks, Jim Todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 14:38:39 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 14:38:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling Message-ID: <1a981f.1d811c9e.42a4982f@aol.com> Scott, I had you and those parts in mind in particular. I could meet you in advance in Kansas City to pick them up. They probably would fit in my 4Runner. If not, I could bring the trailer. Jim In a message dated 6/6/2015 1:32:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: if anyone wants any parts that I had for sale. Jim might be able to haul them especially something like that motor that would be hard to ship. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/06/2015 1:24 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling All, I'll be pulling a 12-foot, enclosed trailer to the convention from Columbia, Missouri. I have a substantial amount of unused capacity going out and am coming back empty. If you have anything you need hauled either way and are anywhere near my route (Interstate 64) to Charlottesville, VA, I'll be happy to assist. Thanks, Jim Todd _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 15:26:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters@waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 14:26:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling Message-ID: <4r65us9b8xkodjq6kjcfk5ru.1433618801930@email.android.com> Cool. Thanks Jim. If anyone wants anything let me know asap. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/06/2015 1:38 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling Scott, I had you and those parts in mind in particular. I could meet you in advance in Kansas City to pick them up. They probably would fit in my 4Runner. If not, I could bring the trailer. Jim In a message dated 6/6/2015 1:32:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: if anyone wants any parts that I had for sale. Jim might be able to haul them especially something like that motor that would be hard to ship. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/06/2015 1:24 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hauling All, I'll be pulling a 12-foot, enclosed trailer to the convention from Columbia, Missouri. I have a substantial amount of unused capacity going out and am coming back empty. If you have anything you need hauled either way and are anywhere near my route (Interstate 64) to Charlottesville, VA, I'll be happy to assist. Thanks, Jim Todd _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 18:48:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 22:48:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | | | View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 20:18:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 20:18:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002f01d0a0b7$745521e0$5cff65a0$@cfl.rr.com> Actually the long wires add inductance which can cause voltage spikes as a result of the fast switching. This can blow the devices (MOSFET) used to switch the currents. It can overvoltage the caps also but that may not be the main problem. I had some trouble like this when I designed my controller. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 20:19:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 20:19:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 20:46:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 00:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca #yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. ?Ken Martindale. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | | | View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | | | | | | | | | | ? ? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 21:32:35 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 18:32:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf >Alan > From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. ?Ken Martindale. ? > >From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups >| ? | >| ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | >| | >| View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | >| | >| ? | >| | | | | | | | | > > ? ? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >Alec, >I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? >I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >If you want the controller send your address of list. >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > >Hello friends, >I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with >Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was >supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but >unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended >up being just Snoopy. >On the way up the weather was terrible, with >driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the >road. It had been raining heavily for several days >previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer >I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain >is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility >for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy >and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked >very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say >Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced >the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those >were clearer than most lakes. >Here's a few things we learned: >1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had >tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the >enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found >it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. >However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a >spare speed controller, so switched it out.? >The replacement died within five minutes on the >second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the >prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a >little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's >shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to >the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and >shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller >during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the >prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the >pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so >the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little >below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those >specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double >failure all of our dives were done on just the side >thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a >controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple >on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're >electronic, they will fail. >2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and >this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They >were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, >and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the >seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm >supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva >trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder >hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out >to be pressurized.? >Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity >of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long >as the compression volume of that air could be handled by >the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) >Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds >the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble >of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the >bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble >squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the >motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the >seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are >fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small >bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going >to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the >bubbles more easily. >3) An easy way to add >buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by >placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the >oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of >just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't >suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a >float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a >charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow >back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats >for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes >required. >Most of our dives were along a very steep >incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges >and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the >good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really >good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using >very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of >a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging >trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing >our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly >positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly >negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple >of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact >at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet >above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for >a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't >rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely >immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >would improve significantly, and the water changed from >green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to >put together. The only "incidents" we had were a >cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of >the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 >feet - fortunately reversing got us right off >it. > >Best, >Alec? > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 21:58:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Dan Hryhorcoff via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 21:58:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433561330.51298.YahooMailBasic@web163204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1433561330.51298.YahooMailBasic@web163204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61EAAF759C5B4CF2BE2020B584EEDBDB@DanPC> Yep, Al has the boat and he has experience too. Experience in the deep water testing operation, and experience in hauling up hand over hand from more feet then he or I would like to do again. Seneca Lake in New York state is a great place to dive. Deep and clear with a great ramp on the southern end. It's only a few miles off the ramp to get to five hundred feet of depth. Great report Alec, Seneca lake is so deep that the water doesn't seem to mix up much. What's at the bottom and cold, stays down there. Probably the biggest drawback to that lake is that it's quite cold year around. If you have plans to get up there again let me know. Maybe I'll head up that way. Dan H. -----Original Message----- From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 11:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Tim, It's basically a 20' 150 hp outboard...good for towing the sub out to the dive site. I have 2 other larger boats but they aren't as easily towed on the highway. I provided support for Persistence, Dan H's K-350 sub when we did the deep test for that. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 11:11 PM What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015 5:16 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 22:10:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters@waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 21:10:38 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Dan and Al, I will be going to Lake Seneca later this year once things calm down at work. I really hated missing this dive with Alec. I will keep everyone posted when I will plan to go. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Dan Hryhorcoff via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/06/2015 8:58 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Yep, Al has the boat and he has experience too. Experience in the deep water testing operation, and experience in hauling up hand over hand from more feet then he or I would like to do again. Seneca Lake in New York state is a great place to dive. Deep and clear with a great ramp on the southern end. It's only a few miles off the ramp to get to five hundred feet of depth. Great report Alec, Seneca lake is so deep that the water doesn't seem to mix up much. What's at the bottom and cold, stays down there. Probably the biggest drawback to that lake is that it's quite cold year around. If you have plans to get up there again let me know. Maybe I'll head up that way. Dan H. -----Original Message----- From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 11:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Tim, It's basically a 20' 150 hp outboard...good for towing the sub out to the dive site. I have 2 other larger boats but they aren't as easily towed on the highway. I provided support for Persistence, Dan H's K-350 sub when we did the deep test for that. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 11:11 PM What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/05/2015 5:16 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 22:41:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 22:41:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <002f01d0a0b7$745521e0$5cff65a0$@cfl.rr.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <002f01d0a0b7$745521e0$5cff65a0$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4BC57371-144D-4D51-B66E-8043D656EA77@gmail.com> The controller issues have been MOSFET meltdowns a couple of times, and other times just solder melting on other parts of the board due presumably to excessive heat caused by large currents. Once when I opened the enclosure to investigate, a diode fell out. It had just de-soldered itself and come entirely off the PCB. > On Jun 6, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Actually the long wires add inductance which can cause voltage spikes as a result of the fast switching. This can blow the devices (MOSFET) used to switch the currents. > > It can overvoltage the caps also but that may not be the main problem. > > I had some trouble like this when I designed my controller. > > Ken Martindale > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. > re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to > motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. > This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts > & wheel chairs. > My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed > motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a > current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. > A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with > a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. > Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. > Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; > however there must be a better way. > Regards Alan > too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups > > > > > > > > > too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... > Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk > View on www.rcgroups.com > Preview by Yahoo > > > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > Alec, > I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. > I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. > If you want the controller send your address of list. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > > Hello friends, > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with > Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was > supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but > unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended > up being just Snoopy. > On the way up the weather was terrible, with > driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the > road. It had been raining heavily for several days > previously. Three times there were emergency announcements > about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer > I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain > is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility > for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy > and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say > Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced > the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those > were clearer than most lakes. > Here's a few things we learned: > 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern > thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the > enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found > it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. > However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a > spare speed controller, so switched it out. > The replacement died within five minutes on the > second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the > prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a > little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to > the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and > shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller > during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the > prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so > the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, > the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little > below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those > specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side > thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. > Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a > controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're > electronic, they will fail. > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and > this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They > were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, > and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the > seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm > supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva > trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder > hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out > to be pressurized. > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity > of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long > as the compression volume of that air could be handled by > the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) > Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds > the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble > of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the > bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble > squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the > motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the > seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are > fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small > bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going > to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > 3) An easy way to add > buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by > placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the > oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of > just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more > than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't > suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a > float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow > back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats > for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes > required. > Most of our dives were along a very steep > incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges > and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the > good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using > very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of > a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging > trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing > our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly > negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple > of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact > at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet > above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for > a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't > rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely > immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility > would improve significantly, and the water changed from > green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. > I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to > put together. The only "incidents" we had were a > cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of > the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 > feet - fortunately reversing got us right off > it. > > Best, > Alec > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 6 23:30:46 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 20:30:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <61EAAF759C5B4CF2BE2020B584EEDBDB@DanPC> Message-ID: <1433647846.27921.YahooMailBasic@web163206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Dan! Long time no hear :) I have the boat running great now an actually still hitched to the truck! Anytime you want to go up, just holler and I'd be more that willing! Maybe this time I can get you on some of those barge wreckd I promised! Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/6/15, Dan Hryhorcoff via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, June 6, 2015, 9:58 PM Yep, Al has the boat and he has experience too.? Experience in the deep water testing operation, and experience in hauling up hand over hand from more feet then he or I would like to do again. Seneca Lake in New York state is a great place to dive.? Deep and clear with a great ramp on the southern end.? It's only a few miles off the ramp to get to five hundred feet of depth. Great report Alec,? Seneca lake is so deep that the water doesn't seem to mix up much.? What's at the bottom and cold, stays down there.? Probably the biggest drawback to that lake is that it's quite cold year around. If you have plans to get up there again let me know.? Maybe I'll head up that way. Dan H. -----Original Message----- From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 11:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Tim, It's basically a 20' 150 hp outboard...good for towing the sub out to the dive site.? I have 2 other larger boats but they aren't as easily towed on the highway. I provided support for Persistence, Dan H's K-350 sub when we did the deep test for that. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 11:11 PM What kind of surface support boat do you have, Al?? Could you post a photo? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-05-15 7:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca FWIW, my boat is available for any surface support for deep tests and I can also provide guidance to local wrecks in Seneca if anyone else is interested. I also have a scuba compressor for air fills. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Date: Friday, June 5, 2015, 9:20 PM ? Alec,So cool. I wish I could of made it! Can't wait to see the video.Thanks,Scott Waters ? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message ? -------- ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ? ? Date:06/05/2015? 5:16 PM? (GMT-06:00) ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Cc: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hello ? friends, ? I just got back ? from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought? I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub? trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business? emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. ? On the way up ? the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could? barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining? heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and? damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. ? The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake,? the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened? last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at? Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would? be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof,? because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most? lakes. ? Here's a ? few things we learned: ? 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead? on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before? leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the? spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed? the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched? it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little? twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is? made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade? tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the? convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect? and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes? lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are? optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of? our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can? operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will? fail. ? 2) Of air ? bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep ? (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died? altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. ? At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an? Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares? (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the? bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an? issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation ? bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the? dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil? and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing,? the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the? pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking? pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are? diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor? caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. ? 3) An easy way ? to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted? by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the? oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of? just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't? suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a? float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a? charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow? back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats? for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes? required. ? Most of our ? dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but? more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between? the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way? down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy,? trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking? aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging? motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub? compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the? surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but? we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we? stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat? bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't? rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility? would improve significantly, and the water changed from? green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. ? I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to? put together. The only "incidents" we had were a? cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of? the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220? feet - fortunately reversing got us right off? it. ? Best, Alec ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 06:19:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:19:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1624970858.7869755.1433672376550.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks people,I looked at a tuned inductor esc & it was 600- Euro.. ouch!This guy has a 15ft wire run & is using a 30,000 mfd capacitor & says it works well.That's a 2" X 3" capacitor. I am not sure what model he is refering to, but he makespeople carrying electric helicopters with 30ft span motor arrays.Alan - Permalink?Reply by?Brad Hughey?on?January 24, 2013 at 7:14pm - The problem really lies in the "coil of wire" like effects (parasitic inductance) on the battery lines and the way Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor speed control circuits are designed to work.? MOSFETs in this application are used as an all-or nothing switch that turns on and off very quickly.? The unfortunate thing is that high currents develop strong magnetic fields, and when the current is interrupted suddenly by the MOSFET doing what it's supposed to do, very high transient overvoltages can be generated by the collapsing fields around the stray inductance of the power wiring.?MOSFETs don't like being constantly "kicked in the ass" like this (really referred to as avalanche voltages) at levels higher than their maximum ratings.? One way to solve the problem is by giving the sudden voltage spike energy somewhere else to go, and this is what the capacitors are for.? Another method is to tie a zener diode between the drain (assuming n-channel) and gate, to literally turn the MOSFET back on for a bit to dissipate the transient (if you don't understand what I just said - you're a more and bigger capacitors person).The whole notion of a "sinusoidal" MOSFET switching circuit sets off my hogwash detector.? If an ESC doesn't need a big capacitor (you can't make it too big electrically), then the latter approach is probably what they're depending on.? Biasing MOSFETs in the active region (as in what applying a sinusoidal signal to the gate would do) and asking them to handle a high drain current usually guarantees nearly instant vaporization of the device.I have a rather large run in my, ahem, model of around 15 feet at the extreme, and found a 300,000 uf capacitor quells the effects of the inductance rather well (yes, that's .3 farads folks).? So yes, you can't go too large, and there's the added benefit of vastly increased power supply voltage stability in the opposite direction (less "sagging" due to transient battery impedance).? ? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf >Alan >? ? ? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? >#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. ?Ken Martindale. ? > >From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups >| ? | >| ? |? | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | >|? | >| View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | >|? | >| ? | >|? |? |? |? |? |? |? |? | > > ? ? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >Alec, >I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? >I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >If you want the controller send your address of list. >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > >Hello friends, >I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with >Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was >supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but >unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended >up being just Snoopy. >On the way up the weather was terrible, with >driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the >road. It had been raining heavily for several days >previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer >I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain >is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility >for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy >and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked >very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say >Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced >the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those >were clearer than most lakes. >Here's a few things we learned: >1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had >tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the >enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found >it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. >However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a >spare speed controller, so switched it out.? >The replacement died within five minutes on the >second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the >prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a >little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's >shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to >the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and >shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller >during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the >prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the >pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so >the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little >below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those >specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double >failure all of our dives were done on just the side >thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a >controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple >on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're >electronic, they will fail. >2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and >this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They >were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, >and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the >seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm >supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva >trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder >hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out >to be pressurized.? >Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity >of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long >as the compression volume of that air could be handled by >the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) >Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds >the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble >of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the >bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble >squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the >motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the >seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are >fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small >bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going >to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the >bubbles more easily. >3) An easy way to add >buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by >placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the >oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of >just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't >suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a >float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a >charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow >back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats >for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes >required. >Most of our dives were along a very steep >incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges >and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the >good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really >good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using >very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of >a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging >trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing >our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly >positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly >negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple >of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact >at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet >above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for >a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't >rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely >immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >would improve significantly, and the water changed from >green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to >put together. The only "incidents" we had were a >cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of >the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 >feet - fortunately reversing got us right off >it. > >Best, >Alec? > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 11:14:07 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 11:14:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01d0a134$99bc7320$cd355960$@cfl.rr.com> What's a tuned inductor? Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there >an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually >used?I was looking at this >option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch >arts-engl-deut.pdf >Alan > From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 >{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >James via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for >the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been >reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor >controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be >a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things >like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC >motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be >similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the >motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the >wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be >turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha >"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems >with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & >solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery >wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery >wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - >RC Groups >| | >| | | | | | | | >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, >| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | View on >| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | >| | >| | | | | | | | | > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I >don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. >I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >If you want the controller send your address of list. >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > >Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > >Hello friends, >I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought >I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with >Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it >ended up being just Snoopy. >On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I >could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for >several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the >harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your >typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what >happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at >Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. >I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only >reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were >clearer than most lakes. >Here's a few things we learned: >1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it >successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down >all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the >issue to road bumps. >However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed >controller, so switched it out. >The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time >at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The >current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, >and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist >to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to >jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention >in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the >tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a >little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the >controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. >Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on >just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller >bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a >speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. >2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a >puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one >died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At >first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store >that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) >When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. >The motor turned out to be pressurized. >Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the >system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of >that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka >compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the >dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a >bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble >stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water >back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking >pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals >are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble >is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on >the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. >3) An easy way to add >buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC >tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the >addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the >water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the >forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place >throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few >floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. >Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but >more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep >terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a >really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very >slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the >slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging >motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with >depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into >slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of >pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we >stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for >about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on >comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there >completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. >It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The >only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the >hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a >log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. > >Best, >Alec > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 11:39:59 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 11:39:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> Alan, Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. Ken Martindale PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post. Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used? I was looking at this option. http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 12:59:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 09:59:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer Message-ID: <1433696359.1279.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi all, After my small launching disaster with my wife videoing I was ordered by my wife to stop being so cheap. My launch cart is now reserved for shop use. I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is very unusual because it is a double decker. The trailer has a hydraulic lift to carry two jet skis above the boat. If I want I can carry a support boat above the sub. The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice and safe. Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with 2 feet overhanging making launches easier. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 13:28:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:28:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: <1433696359.1279.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433698125.6297.YahooMailBasic@web163202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Pictures? Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/7/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 12:59 PM Hi all, After my small launching disaster with my wife videoing I was ordered by my wife to stop being so cheap.? My launch cart is now reserved for shop use.? I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is very unusual because it is a double decker.? The trailer has a hydraulic lift to carry two jet skis above the boat.? If I want I can carry a support boat above the sub.? The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice and safe.? Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with 2 feet overhanging making launches easier. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 14:13:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 14:13:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer Message-ID: <182b0d.4abed453.42a5e3c5@aol.com> Hank, We just have to see that video! And how did you get your wife to insist you spend more money for such a neat trailer? Pics of that rig, too, please. Is it something you can use in your business? Jim T. In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi all, After my small launching disaster with my wife videoing I was ordered by my wife to stop being so cheap. My launch cart is now reserved for shop use. I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is very unusual because it is a double decker. The trailer has a hydraulic lift to carry two jet skis above the boat. If I want I can carry a support boat above the sub. The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice and safe. Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with 2 feet overhanging making launches easier. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 14:46:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 18:46:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: <182b0d.4abed453.42a5e3c5@aol.com> References: <182b0d.4abed453.42a5e3c5@aol.com> Message-ID: Hank, you are an inspiration to us all, and a wife says buy more stuff for the submarine. Who could ask for more.... On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 AM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > We just have to see that video! And how did you get your wife to insist > you spend more money for such a neat trailer? Pics of that rig, too, > please. Is it something you can use in your business? > Jim T. > > In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hi all, > After my small launching disaster with my wife videoing I was ordered by > my wife to stop being so cheap. My launch cart is now reserved for shop > use. I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is very unusual because it > is a double decker. The trailer has a hydraulic lift to carry two jet skis > above the boat. If I want I can carry a support boat above the sub. The > trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice and safe. Also it is 26 feet > long with the sub way at the back with 2 feet overhanging making launches > easier. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 16:19:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:19:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <1433708383.6104.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I can't post the picture of my new trailer, so I sent it to Jim and maybe he can post it. From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 16:23:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:23:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433708623.72217.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, My wife wants a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble with the cart, she has a point. The cart works great but there are several that could fail and leave me stranded. Jim I can not use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub now. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM Hank, you are an inspiration to us all, and a wife says buy more stuff for the submarine. Who could ask for more.... On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 AM?via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, We just have to see that video!? And?how did you get your wife to insist you spend more money for such a neat trailer?? Pics of that rig, too, please.? Is it something you can use in your business? Jim T. ? In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi all, After my small launching disaster with my wife videoing I was ordered by my wife to stop being so cheap.? My launch cart is now reserved for shop use.? I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is very unusual because it is a double decker.? The trailer has a hydraulic lift to carry two jet skis above the boat.? If I want I can carry a support boat above the sub.? The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice and safe.? Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with 2 feet overhanging making launches easier. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 16:22:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:22:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <000b01d0a134$99bc7320$cd355960$@cfl.rr.com> References: <000b01d0a134$99bc7320$cd355960$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1915215887.8079133.1433708556841.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Ken,Keith T mentioned the tuned inductor.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit I am not familiar with it.In the article I posted it mentioned these sine current controllers.http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html These have been tested to 70 meters without capacitors, but very expensive.Alan? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca What's a tuned inductor? Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there >an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually >used?I was looking at this >option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch >arts-engl-deut.pdf >Alan >? ? ? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? >#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 >{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;! }#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.? Ken Martindale. > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >James via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca? Thanks for >the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been >reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor >controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be >a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things >like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC >motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be >similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the >motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the >wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be >turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha >"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems >with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & >solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery >wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery >wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - >RC Groups >|? | >|? |? |? |? |? |? |? | >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, >| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk |? | View on >| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo |? | >|? | >|? |? |? |? |? |? |? |? | > >? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I >don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. >I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >If you want the controller send your address of list. >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > >Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > >Hello friends, >I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought >I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with >Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it >ended up being just Snoopy. >On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I >could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for >several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the >harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your >typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what >happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at >Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. >I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only >reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were >clearer than most lakes. >Here's a few things we learned: >1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it >successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down >all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the >issue to road bumps. >However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed >controller, so switched it out. >The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time >at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The >current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, >and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist >to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to >jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention >in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the >tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a >little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the >controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. >Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on >just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller >bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a >speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. >2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a >puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one >died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At >first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store >that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) >When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. >The motor turned out to be pressurized. >Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the >system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of >that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka >compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the >dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a >bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble >stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water >back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking >pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals >are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble >is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on >the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. >3) An easy way to add >buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC >tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the >addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the >water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the >forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place >throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few >floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. >Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but >more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep >terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a >really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very >slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the >slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging >motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with >depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into >slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of >pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we >stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for >about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on >comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there >completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. >It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The >only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the >hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a >log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. > >Best, >Alec > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 17:06:02 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 16:06:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: <1433708623.72217.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433708623.72217.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I'll post it when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 7, 2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > David, > My wife wants a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble with the cart, she has a point. The cart works great but there are several that could fail and leave me stranded. > Jim > I can not use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub now. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM > > Hank, you > are an inspiration to us all, and a wife says buy more stuff > for the submarine. Who could ask for more.... > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 > AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > Hank, > We just have to see that video! > And how did you get > your wife to insist you spend more money for such a neat > trailer? Pics of > that rig, too, please. Is it something you can use in your > > business? > Jim T. > > > In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. Central > Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > writes: > Hi > all, > After my small launching disaster > with my wife videoing I was ordered > by my wife to stop being so cheap. My launch cart is now > reserved for > shop use. I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is > very unusual > because it is a double decker. The trailer has a > hydraulic lift to carry > two jet skis above the boat. If I want I can carry a > support boat above > the sub. The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice > and safe. > Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with > 2 feet overhanging > making launches > easier. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles > mailing > list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 17:16:24 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 14:16:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: The speed contoler is modulating the current and voltage from the battery by chopping it into pulses, very fast pulses in the 20 khz range. Basically it is a transmitter, so we need to filter the output (a bandpass filter design) to snub the transient voltages and harmonics generated by the oscillating curcit. There are several different ways to achieve this, most power suppplies do this by using a bridge rectifier and a filtering capacitor ( in the 100,000 mfd + range). Using an o'scope and spectrum analyzer would reveal the waveform (most likely a squre wave) and the varrious harmonics produced by the curcit. Based on these frequencies and voltages one can calulate the capacitance and inductance needed to filter the unwanted output (thus tuned inductors). Hope this helps.. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,Keith T mentioned the tuned inductor.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit >I am not familiar with it.In the article I posted it mentioned these sine current controllers.http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html >These have been tested to 70 meters without capacitors, but very expensive.Alan? > From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >What's a tuned inductor? > >Ken Martindale > >-----Original Message----- >From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. > >Keith T > >Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there >>an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually >>used?I was looking at this >>option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch >>arts-engl-deut.pdf >>Alan >>? ? ? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> >> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>? >>#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 >>{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;! > }#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.? Ken Martindale. >> >>From: Personal_Submersibles >>[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>James via Personal_Submersibles >>Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca? Thanks for >>the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been >>reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor >>controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be >>a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things >>like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC >>motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be >>similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the >>motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the >>wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be >>turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha >>"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems >>with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & >>solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery >>wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery >>wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - >>RC Groups >>|? | >>|? |? |? |? |? |? |? | >>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! >>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, >>| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk |? | View on >>| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo |? | >>|? | >>|? |? |? |? |? |? |? |? | >> >>? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >>Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I >>don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. >>I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >>If you want the controller send your address of list. >>Hank >>-------------------------------------------- >>On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >>Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM >> >>Hello friends, >>I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought >>I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with >>Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it >>ended up being just Snoopy. >>On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I >>could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for >>several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >>about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the >>harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your >>typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what >>happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at >>Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. >>I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only >>reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were >>clearer than most lakes. >>Here's a few things we learned: >>1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >>thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it >>successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down >>all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the >>issue to road bumps. >>However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed >>controller, so switched it out. >>The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time >>at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The >>current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, >>and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist >>to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to >>jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention >>in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the >>tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a >>little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >>the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the >>controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. >>Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on >>just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >>Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller >>bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a >>speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. >>2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >>Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a >>puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one >>died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At >>first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >>incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store >>that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) >>When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. >>The motor turned out to be pressurized. >>Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the >>system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of >>that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka >>compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the >>dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a >>bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble >>stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water >>back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking >>pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals >>are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble >>is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on >>the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. >>3) An easy way to add >>buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC >>tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the >>addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >>than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the >>water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the >>forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place >>throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few >>floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. >>Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but >>more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep >>terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a >>really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very >>slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the >>slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging >>motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with >>depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into >>slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of >>pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we >>stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for >>about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on >>comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there >>completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >>would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. >>It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >>I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The >>only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the >>hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a >>log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. >> >>Best, >>Alec >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 17:26:53 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 14:26:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433712413.96347.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Thank you, and I am loading the video on youtube right now, well trying :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/7/15, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 5:06 PM Hank, I'll post it when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 7, 2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > David, > My wife wants a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble with the cart, she has a point.? The cart works great but there are several that could fail and leave me stranded.? > Jim > I can not use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub now. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM > > Hank, you > are an inspiration to us all, and a wife says buy more stuff > for the submarine. Who could ask for more.... > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 > AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > Hank, > We just have to see that video! > And how did you get > your wife to insist you spend more money for such a neat > trailer?? Pics of > that rig, too, please.? Is it something you can use in your > > business? > Jim T. >? > > In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. Central > Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > writes: > Hi >???all, > After my small launching disaster > with my wife videoing I was ordered >???by my wife to stop being so cheap.? My launch cart is now > reserved for >???shop use.? I had to buy a nice low boat trailer, it is > very unusual >???because it is a double decker.? The trailer has a > hydraulic lift to carry >???two jet skis above the boat.? If I want I can carry a > support boat above >???the sub.? The trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice > and safe.? >???Also it is 26 feet long with the sub way at the back with > 2 feet overhanging >???making launches >???easier. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles >???mailing >???list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 18:36:52 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 22:36:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Ken,I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it.I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding.My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiringdiagram would work for both.Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca #yiv1009349204 #yiv1009349204 -- _filtered #yiv1009349204 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1009349204 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1009349204 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv1009349204 #yiv1009349204 p.yiv1009349204MsoNormal, #yiv1009349204 li.yiv1009349204MsoNormal, #yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1009349204 a:link, #yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1009349204 a:visited, #yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1009349204 p.yiv1009349204msonormal, #yiv1009349204 li.yiv1009349204msonormal, #yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1009349204 p.yiv1009349204msochpdefault, #yiv1009349204 li.yiv1009349204msochpdefault, #yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1009349204 p.yiv1009349204msonormal1, #yiv1009349204 li.yiv1009349204msonormal1, #yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1009349204 p.yiv1009349204msochpdefault1, #yiv1009349204 li.yiv1009349204msochpdefault1, #yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204msohyperlink {}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204emailstyle19 {}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204emailstyle191 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204link-enhancr-element {}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv1009349204 span.yiv1009349204EmailStyle29 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv1009349204 .yiv1009349204MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv1009349204 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv1009349204 div.yiv1009349204WordSection1 {}#yiv1009349204 Alan, ?Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. ?I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. ?The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. ?The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. ?The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. ?In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. ?Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. ?Ken Martindale ?PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan ?From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.?Ken Martindale.? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca?Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | | | View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | | | | | | | | | | ??? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 18:43:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 22:43:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <590315833.8121967.1433717018401.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Keith.So I would be best to buy or make an esc that is somewhere in the ballpark for my requirements,?then ?analyse it while using my long run of battery to esc wiring. ?And based on the result, builda suitable tuned inductor circuit.Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The speed contoler is modulating the current and voltage from the battery by chopping it into pulses, very fast pulses in the 20 khz range. Basically it is a transmitter, so we need to filter the output (a bandpass filter design) to snub the transient voltages and harmonics generated by the oscillating curcit. There are several different ways to achieve this, most power suppplies do this by using a bridge rectifier and a filtering capacitor ( in the 100,000 mfd + range). Using an o'scope and spectrum analyzer would reveal the waveform (most likely a squre wave) and the varrious harmonics produced by the curcit. Based on these frequencies and voltages one can calulate the capacitance and inductance needed to filter the unwanted output (thus tuned inductors). Hope this helps.. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Ken,Keith T mentioned the tuned inductor.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit >I am not familiar with it.In the article I posted it mentioned these sine current controllers.http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html >These have been tested to 70 meters without capacitors, but very expensive.Alan? >? ? ? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? >What's a tuned inductor? > >Ken Martindale > >-----Original Message----- >From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. > >Keith T > >Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there >>an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually >>used?I was looking at this >>option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch >>arts-engl-deut.pdf >>Alan >>? ? ? From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> >> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>? >>#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 >>{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;! > }#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.? Ken Martindale. >> >>From: Personal_Submersibles >>[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>James via Personal_Submersibles >>Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca? Thanks for >>the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been >>reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor >>controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be >>a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things >>like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC >>motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be >>similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the >>motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the >>wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be >>turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha >>"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems >>with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & >>solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery >>wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery >>wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - >>RC Groups >>|? | >>|? |? |? |? |? |? |? | >>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! >>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, >>| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk |? | View on >>| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo |? | >>|? | >>|? |? |? |? |? |? |? |? | >> >>? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >>Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I >>don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. >>I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >>If you want the controller send your address of list. >>Hank >>-------------------------------------------- >>On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >>Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM >> >>Hello friends, >>I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought >>I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with >>Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it >>ended up being just Snoopy. >>On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I >>could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for >>several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >>about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the >>harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your >>typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what >>happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at >>Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. >>I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only >>reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were >>clearer than most lakes. >>Here's a few things we learned: >>1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >>thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it >>successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down >>all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the >>issue to road bumps. >>However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed >>controller, so switched it out. >>The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time >>at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The >>current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, >>and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist >>to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to >>jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention >>in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the >>tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a >>little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >>the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the >>controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. >>Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on >>just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >>Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller >>bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a >>speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. >>2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >>Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a >>puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one >>died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At >>first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >>incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store >>that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) >>When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. >>The motor turned out to be pressurized. >>Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the >>system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of >>that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka >>compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the >>dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a >>bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble >>stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water >>back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking >>pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals >>are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble >>is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on >>the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. >>3) An easy way to add >>buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC >>tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the >>addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >>than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the >>water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the >>forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place >>throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few >>floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. >>Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but >>more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep >>terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a >>really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very >>slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the >>slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging >>motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with >>depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into >>slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of >>pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we >>stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for >>about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on >>comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there >>completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >>would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. >>It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >>I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The >>only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the >>hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a >>log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. >> >>Best, >>Alec >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 20:29:52 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:29:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1915215887.8079133.1433708556841.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000b01d0a134$99bc7320$cd355960$@cfl.rr.com> <1915215887.8079133.1433708556841.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01d0a182$3d1f3460$b75d9d20$@cfl.rr.com> Sine wave converters have ?soft switching? and don?t have the high switching currents a ?hard switching? converter so they are better in this respect. Thanks for the tip on the tuned inductors. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 4:23 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, Keith T mentioned the tuned inductor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit I am not familiar with it. In the article I posted it mentioned these sine current controllers. http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html These have been tested to 70 meters without capacitors, but very expensive. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca What's a tuned inductor? Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there >an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually >used?I was looking at this >option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch >arts-engl-deut.pdf >Alan > From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >< personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >< personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 >{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;! }#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto: personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >James via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for >the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been >reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor >controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be >a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things >like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC >motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be >similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the >motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the >wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be >turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha >"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems >with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & >solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery >wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery >wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - >RC Groups >| | >| | | | | | | | >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! >| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, >| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | View on >| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | >| | >| | | | | | | | | > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >< personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I >don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. >I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. >If you want the controller send your address of list. >Hank >-------------------------------------------- >On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >< personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM > >Hello friends, >I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought >I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with >Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it >ended up being just Snoopy. >On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I >could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for >several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements >about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the >harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your >typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what >happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at >Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. >I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only >reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were >clearer than most lakes. >Here's a few things we learned: >1) Of props and shroudsThe stern >thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it >successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down >all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the >issue to road bumps. >However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed >controller, so switched it out. >The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time >at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The >current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, >and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist >to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to >jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention >in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the >tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a >little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, >the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the >controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. >Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on >just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. >Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller >bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a >speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. >2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil >Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a >puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one >died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At >first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical >incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store >that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) >When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. >The motor turned out to be pressurized. >Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the >system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of >that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka >compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the >dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a >bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble >stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water >back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking >pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals >are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble >is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on >the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. >3) An easy way to add >buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC >tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the >addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more >than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the >water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the >forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place >throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few >floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. >Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but >more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep >terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a >really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very >slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the >slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging >motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with >depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into >slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of >pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we >stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for >about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on >comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there >completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility >would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. >It looked like ocean instead of lake water. >I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The >only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the >hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a >log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. > >Best, >Alec > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 20:36:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:36:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201d0a183$226b9d10$6742d730$@cfl.rr.com> Maybe, the three phase drive for a BLDC motor is quite a bit more complex than a brushed DC motor. The BLDC motors operate from a three phase AC generated from the DC input. My understanding is that the BLDC is basically an AC operated motor. Ken From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Ken, I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it. I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding. My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiring diagram would work for both. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alan, Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. Ken Martindale PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post. Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used? I was looking at this option. http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 20:51:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:51:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01d0a185$37ac1090$a70431b0$@cfl.rr.com> I can dig it up if you think it would be helpful. I?m a little pessimistic about it helping. Don?t know if your motor controller/Inverter is soft switching or not. I suspect it?s hard switching since they are lower cost. I assume it?s a drive for the BLDC motor? Three phases? Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Ken, I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it. I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding. My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiring diagram would work for both. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alan, Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. Ken Martindale PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post. Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used? I was looking at this option. http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 21:56:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 01:56:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <000a01d0a185$37ac1090$a70431b0$@cfl.rr.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <000a01d0a185$37ac1090$a70431b0$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1198921106.8204429.1433728560121.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Ken,?I am pretty sure I have the schematic in one of my folders. Have moved recently:)I have a couple of different BLDC escs, 3 phases. They are designed for the RC hobbymarket, but some of the hobby motors are pretty serious units. There is a lot of hackinggoing on, with people using the motors and escs for E bikes, scooters etc.Unfortunately our submarines tend to have longer wire runs than these other vehicles.I need to learn a bit more.Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca #yiv3513449662 #yiv3513449662 -- _filtered #yiv3513449662 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv3513449662 #yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662MsoNormal, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662MsoNormal, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 a:link, #yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 a:visited, #yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal1, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal1, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink1 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed1 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle191 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle29 {}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal2, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal2, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink2 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed2 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal3, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal3, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal11, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal11, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal11 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink11 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed11 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle1911 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle291 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662link-enhancr-element {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662EmailStyle40 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 .yiv3513449662MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662WordSection1 {}#yiv3513449662 I can dig it up if ?you think it would be helpful. I?m a little pessimistic about it helping. ?Don?t know if your motor controller/Inverter is soft switching or not. I suspect it?s hard switching since they are lower cost. ?I assume it?s a drive for the BLDC motor? Three phases? ?Ken Martindale ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Ken,I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it.I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding.My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiringdiagram would work for both.Alan ?From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?Alan,?Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help.?I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need.?The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used.?The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current.?The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough.?In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website.?Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem.?Ken Martindale?PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem.? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca?Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdfAlan?From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca?Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.?Ken Martindale.??From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca?Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire;?however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | | | View on www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | | | | | | | | | | ????From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.? They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.? I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.? They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.? They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.? I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.? As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 7 23:30:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:30:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <20150607203000.5B2E2CD9@m0005311.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 06:52:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:52:44 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: <1433712413.96347.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433712413.96347.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, There seem to be a load of new pics on your page but they appear to me as the "X" picture not found thing. Can anyone else see them? The last one that is ok is the "side view of new ballast tanks". After that there appears to be 8 pictures that don't work. I just want to see your new trailer... :) Regards James On 7 June 2015 at 22:26, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Jim, > Thank you, and I am loading the video on youtube right now, well trying :-) > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/7/15, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 5:06 PM > > Hank, I'll post it > when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. > Jim > > Sent from > my iPhone > > > On Jun 7, > 2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > David, > > My wife wants > a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble > with the cart, she has a point. The cart works great but > there are several that could fail and leave me stranded. > > > Jim > > I can not > use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub > now. > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: > Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer > > To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM > > > > Hank, you > > are an inspiration to us all, and a wife > says buy more stuff > > for the submarine. > Who could ask for more.... > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 > > AM via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hank, > > We just have to > see that video! > > And how did you get > > > your wife to insist you spend more > money for such a neat > > trailer? Pics > of > > that rig, too, please. Is it > something you can use in your > > > > business? > > Jim T. > > > > > > In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. > Central > > Daylight Time, > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > writes: > > Hi > > all, > > > After my small launching disaster > > with > my wife videoing I was ordered > > by my wife to stop being so > cheap. My launch cart is now > > reserved > for > > shop use. I had to > buy a nice low boat trailer, it is > > very > unusual > > because it is a > double decker. The trailer has a > > > hydraulic lift to carry > > two jet skis above the > boat. If I want I can carry a > > support > boat above > > the sub. The > trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice > > and safe. > > Also it is 26 feet long with > the sub way at the back with > > 2 feet > overhanging > > making > launches > > easier. > > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing > > list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 07:58:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 07:58:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: References: <1433712413.96347.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have the same problem. The new photos just appear as icons to me. Very curious to see this double-decker! Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > There seem to be a load of new pics on your page but they appear to me as > the "X" picture not found thing. Can anyone else see them? The last one > that is ok is the "side view of new ballast tanks". After that there > appears to be 8 pictures that don't work. > > I just want to see your new trailer... :) > Regards > James > > On 7 June 2015 at 22:26, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> Jim, >> Thank you, and I am loading the video on youtube right now, well trying >> :-) >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Sun, 6/7/15, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 5:06 PM >> >> Hank, I'll post it >> when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. >> Jim >> >> Sent from >> my iPhone >> >> > On Jun 7, >> 2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > David, >> > My wife wants >> a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble >> with the cart, she has a point. The cart works great but >> there are several that could fail and leave me stranded. >> >> > Jim >> > I can not >> use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub >> now. >> > >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> > On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > Subject: >> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer >> > To: >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> > Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM >> > >> > Hank, you >> > are an inspiration to us all, and a wife >> says buy more stuff >> > for the submarine. >> Who could ask for more.... >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 >> > AM via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hank, >> > We just have to >> see that video! >> > And how did you get >> >> > your wife to insist you spend more >> money for such a neat >> > trailer? Pics >> of >> > that rig, too, please. Is it >> something you can use in your >> > >> > business? >> > Jim T. >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. >> Central >> > Daylight Time, >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> > writes: >> > Hi >> > all, >> > >> After my small launching disaster >> > with >> my wife videoing I was ordered >> > by my wife to stop being so >> cheap. My launch cart is now >> > reserved >> for >> > shop use. I had to >> buy a nice low boat trailer, it is >> > very >> unusual >> > because it is a >> double decker. The trailer has a >> > >> hydraulic lift to carry >> > two jet skis above the >> boat. If I want I can carry a >> > support >> boat above >> > the sub. The >> trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice >> > and safe. >> > Also it is 26 feet long with >> the sub way at the back with >> > 2 feet >> overhanging >> > making >> launches >> > easier. >> > Hank >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing >> > list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 08:00:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 08:00:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <20150607203000.5B2E2CD9@m0005311.ppops.net> References: <20150607203000.5B2E2CD9@m0005311.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what I have. Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > Why don't you just have the motor open the ambient water instead > of trying to seal it? Couldn't you just have a small reservoir above the > motor for the compensating oil? > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 > > Hello friends, > > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd > share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott > Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up > being just Snoopy. > > On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could > barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several > days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about > floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it > rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the > runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when > Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be > rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty > feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. > > Here's a few things we learned: > > 1) Of props and shrouds > The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed > down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the > issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I > had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. > > The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at > least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current > Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip > causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had > already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going > to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes > lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was > protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, > so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was > out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical > system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they > *will* fail. > > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a > puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died > altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we > thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that > sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I > disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor > turned out to be pressurized. > > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the > system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that > air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation > bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the > pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you > will get water added to the oil *and the bubble stores the pressure*. > Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the > pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, > you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance > with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving > deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > > 3) An easy way to add buoyancy > Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one > occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one > float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting > off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I > just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the > ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K > sub, no special tubes required. > > Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but > more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep > terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly > negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking > aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the > water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, > but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused > difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five > feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a > pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an > inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about > 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed > from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a > video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we > had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the > crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately > reversing got us right off it. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 08:01:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 05:01:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433764910.76062.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, I sent the picture of the trailer to Jim and he will post it. You will be amazed at this trailer, it is soooo cool. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 7:58 AM I have the same problem. The new photos just appear as icons to me. Very curious to see this double-decker! Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, There seem to be a load of new pics on your page but they appear to me as the "X" picture not found thing.?? Can anyone else see them?? The last one that is ok is the "side view of new ballast tanks".? After that there appears to be 8 pictures that don't work.?I just want to see your new trailer... :)RegardsJames On 7 June 2015 at 22:26, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim, Thank you, and I am loading the video on youtube right now, well trying :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/7/15, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 5:06 PM ?Hank, I'll post it ?when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. ?Jim ?Sent from ?my iPhone ?> On Jun 7, ?2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> ?> David, ?> My wife wants ?a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble ?with the cart, she has a point.? The cart works great but ?there are several that could fail and leave me stranded.? ?> Jim ?> I can not ?use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub ?now. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer ?> To: ?"Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?> Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM ?> ?> Hank, you ?> are an inspiration to us all, and a wife ?says buy more stuff ?> for the submarine. ?Who could ask for more.... ?> ?> ?> ?> On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 ?> AM via Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> Hank, ?> We just have to ?see that video! ?> And how did you get ?> your wife to insist you spend more ?money for such a neat ?> trailer?? Pics ?of ?> that rig, too, please.? Is it ?something you can use in your ?> ?> business? ?> Jim T. ?>? ?> ?> In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. ?Central ?> Daylight Time, ?> personal_submersibles at psubs.org ?> writes: ?> Hi ?>???all, ?> ?After my small launching disaster ?> with ?my wife videoing I was ordered ?>???by my wife to stop being so ?cheap.? My launch cart is now ?> reserved ?for ?>???shop use.? I had to ?buy a nice low boat trailer, it is ?> very ?unusual ?>???because it is a ?double decker.? The trailer has a ?> ?hydraulic lift to carry ?>???two jet skis above the ?boat.? If I want I can carry a ?> support ?boat above ?>???the sub.? The ?trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice ?> and safe.? ?>???Also it is 26 feet long with ?the sub way at the back with ?> 2 feet ?overhanging ?>???making ?launches ?>???easier. ?> Hank ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles ?>???mailing ?>???list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?> ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 08:14:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 05:14:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433765689.86472.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just tested the psubs system and I can load a small picture, my cell phone camera has decided to take larger pictures for some reason.-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 7:58 AM I have the same problem. The new photos just appear as icons to me. Very curious to see this double-decker! Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, There seem to be a load of new pics on your page but they appear to me as the "X" picture not found thing.?? Can anyone else see them?? The last one that is ok is the "side view of new ballast tanks".? After that there appears to be 8 pictures that don't work.?I just want to see your new trailer... :)RegardsJames On 7 June 2015 at 22:26, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim, Thank you, and I am loading the video on youtube right now, well trying :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/7/15, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 5:06 PM ?Hank, I'll post it ?when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. ?Jim ?Sent from ?my iPhone ?> On Jun 7, ?2015, at 3:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> ?> David, ?> My wife wants ?a new trailer because she is worried I will get in trouble ?with the cart, she has a point.? The cart works great but ?there are several that could fail and leave me stranded.? ?> Jim ?> I can not ?use it in business because I rigged it for just the sub ?now. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Sun, 6/7/15, David Colombo via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new trailer ?> To: ?"Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?> Received: Sunday, June 7, 2015, 2:46 PM ?> ?> Hank, you ?> are an inspiration to us all, and a wife ?says buy more stuff ?> for the submarine. ?Who could ask for more.... ?> ?> ?> ?> On Sun, Jun 7, 2015, 11:14 ?> AM via Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> Hank, ?> We just have to ?see that video! ?> And how did you get ?> your wife to insist you spend more ?money for such a neat ?> trailer?? Pics ?of ?> that rig, too, please.? Is it ?something you can use in your ?> ?> business? ?> Jim T. ?>? ?> ?> In a message dated 6/7/2015 11:59:51 A.M. ?Central ?> Daylight Time, ?> personal_submersibles at psubs.org ?> writes: ?> Hi ?>???all, ?> ?After my small launching disaster ?> with ?my wife videoing I was ordered ?>???by my wife to stop being so ?cheap.? My launch cart is now ?> reserved ?for ?>???shop use.? I had to ?buy a nice low boat trailer, it is ?> very ?unusual ?>???because it is a ?double decker.? The trailer has a ?> ?hydraulic lift to carry ?>???two jet skis above the ?boat.? If I want I can carry a ?> support ?boat above ?>???the sub.? The ?trailer will carry 10,000 lbs so it is nice ?> and safe.? ?>???Also it is 26 feet long with ?the sub way at the back with ?> 2 feet ?overhanging ?>???making ?launches ?>???easier. ?> Hank ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles ?>???mailing ?>???list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?> ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 08:45:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 13:45:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hanks Trailer Message-ID: Hank asked me to post this pic of his new trailer. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hanks Trailer].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 162117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 10:30:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 07:30:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <20150608073011.773F2292@m0048136.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 10:53:29 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:53:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <20150608073011.773F2292@m0048136.ppops.net> References: <20150608073011.773F2292@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: Explained in the original post! On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > How could it possibly get pressurized then? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 08:00:17 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > > If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what I have. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > Why don't you just have the motor open the ambient water instead > of trying to seal it? Couldn't you just have a small reservoir above the > motor for the compensating oil? > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 > > Hello friends, > > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd > share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott > Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up > being just Snoopy. > > On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could > barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several > days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about > floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it > rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the > runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when > Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be > rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty > feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. > > Here's a few things we learned: > > 1) Of props and shrouds > The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed > down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the > issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I > had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. > > The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at > least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current > Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip > causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had > already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going > to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes > lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was > protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, > so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was > out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical > system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they > *will* fail. > > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a > puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died > altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we > thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that > sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I > disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor > turned out to be pressurized. > > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the > system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that > air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation > bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the > pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you > will get water added to the oil *and the bubble stores the pressure*. > Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the > pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, > you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance > with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving > deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > > 3) An easy way to add buoyancy > Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one > occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one > float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting > off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I > just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the > ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K > sub, no special tubes required. > > Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but > more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep > terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly > negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking > aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the > water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, > but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused > difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five > feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a > pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an > inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about > 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed > from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a > video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we > had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the > crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately > reversing got us right off it. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 11:09:10 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:09:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1198921106.8204429.1433728560121.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433593244.67652.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1972389134.7703492.1433630898431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003401d0a0b7$a7b969b0$f72c3d10$@cfl.rr.com> <2115122877.7748241.1433638000466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <001101d0a138$363b97a0$a2b2c6e0$@cfl.rr.com> <221493307.8131201.1433716612509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <000a01d0a185$37ac1090$a70431b0$@cfl.rr.com> <1198921106.8204429.1433728560121.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004101d0a1fd$12b453b0$381cfb10$@cfl.rr.com> Good luck,have fun Ken From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 9:56 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, I am pretty sure I have the schematic in one of my folders. Have moved recently:) I have a couple of different BLDC escs, 3 phases. They are designed for the RC hobby market, but some of the hobby motors are pretty serious units. There is a lot of hacking going on, with people using the motors and escs for E bikes, scooters etc. Unfortunately our submarines tend to have longer wire runs than these other vehicles. I need to learn a bit more. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I can dig it up if you think it would be helpful. I?m a little pessimistic about it helping. Don?t know if your motor controller/Inverter is soft switching or not. I suspect it?s hard switching since they are lower cost. I assume it?s a drive for the BLDC motor? Three phases? Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Ken, I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it. I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding. My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiring diagram would work for both. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alan, Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor?s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. Ken Martindale PS For what it?s worth my controller never had a problem. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken, I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post. Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used? I was looking at this option. http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale. From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff. re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers. This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts & wheel chairs. My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge. A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes. Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers. Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way. Regards Alan too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti... Careful! too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk View on www.rcgroups.com Preview by Yahoo _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail. If you want the controller send your address of list. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized. Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 12:01:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 09:01:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <20150608090142.677485C7@m0005296.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 12:47:46 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 09:47:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <20150608094746.D3F49FB2@m0048136.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 14:54:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2015 14:54:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <20150608090142.677485C7@m0005296.ppops.net> References: <20150608090142.677485C7@m0005296.ppops.net> Message-ID: <5575E4C9.9060802@psubs.org> It sounds like at some point water pressure at the seal was able to compress the bubble of air in the tube, the opposite of what was expected. I'm kind of stumped by the description of the motors performance being "feeble" however. This couldn't have been primarily due to pressure I don't think. Also, isn't an easy fix just to "clamp" the tube any place where liquid appears assuming the tube is held in a vertical position and the bubble is at the top (ie vise grip the tube). Jon On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening > Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 16:41:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 20:41:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <20150608094746.D3F49FB2@m0048136.ppops.net> References: <20150608094746.D3F49FB2@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2101327236.8995460.1433796075197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I found this pdf on Minn kotta seals which shows two shaft seals.www.minnkotamotors.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3133 - - So if this is the case on Snoopy then yes you would get water past thefirst seal. Or the problem could be air in the cavity between the two sealsthat you wouldn't be able to eliminate.They say the Minn kotta seals are good to 100ft thoughonly rated for about 15ft. But this would depend on age & shaft condition.? ?The system on Snoopy & some other K boats, is just a flexible tubethat wraps around the motor. So not a great volume as compared to acommercial oil compensation systems.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Is there pressure in an enclosed part of the seal??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 09:01:42 -0700 Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:53:29 -0400 Explained in the original post! On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How could it possibly get pressurized then??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 08:00:17 -0400 Hi Brian, If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what I have. Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,????????? Why don't you just have the motor open the ambient water instead of trying to seal it?? Couldn't you just have a small reservoir above the motor for the compensating oil??Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 16:48:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 16:48:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <5575E4C9.9060802@psubs.org> References: <20150608090142.677485C7@m0005296.ppops.net> <5575E4C9.9060802@psubs.org> Message-ID: OK, let me try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 feet, and that initially I had 1 cubic inch of bubble in the system. Dive to 250 feet and what I would have thought would happen is that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced to 1/8th in3 due to 8 atmospheres of pressure increase. I would have expected that the compensation bladder would have just been squeezed by that volume, and that upon surfacing the bubble would go back to 1 in3 and the pressure in the motor to 1 atm. However, what we found was that the motor upon surfacing was significantly pressurized. The compensation bladder (i.e. hose) was visibly distended by internal pressure upon surfacing. There was no leak at the hose clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. Since there was over-pressure surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system during the dive, and as the hose clamps were leak free and the seal was not, I suspect the seal. Now the question is why water would get in. Bubble greater than the compression range of the hose? Seal offering less resistance than the hose to compression? Shaft pumping water under the seal during operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? I'm actually not sure - any theories are welcome. One interesting detail - the stern thruster, which was not working due to the issue with the speed controller, did not have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, did. The side thrusters being feeble can be explained by pressure on their seals, or just by their age and related wear on the commutators. I will be changing them, or at least their internals. Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > It sounds like at some point water pressure at the seal was able to > compress the bubble of air in the tube, the opposite of what was expected. > > I'm kind of stumped by the description of the motors performance being > "feeble" however. This couldn't have been primarily due to pressure I > don't think. Also, isn't an easy fix just to "clamp" the tube any place > where liquid appears assuming the tube is held in a vertical position and > the bubble is at the top (ie vise grip the tube). > > Jon > > > On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 16:50:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 16:50:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <2101327236.8995460.1433796075197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20150608094746.D3F49FB2@m0048136.ppops.net> <2101327236.8995460.1433796075197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mine are actually Motor Guides on the sides, but they have the same seal arrangement minus the paper tube. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > I found this pdf on Minn kotta seals which shows two shaft seals. > www.*minnkotamotors*.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3133 > > > > - > > - > > > So if this is the case on Snoopy then yes you would get water past the > first seal. Or the problem could be air in the cavity between the two seals > that you wouldn't be able to eliminate. > They say the Minn kotta seals are good to 100ft though > only rated for about 15ft. But this would depend on age & shaft condition. > The system on Snoopy & some other K boats, is just a flexible tube > that wraps around the motor. So not a great volume as compared to a > commercial oil compensation systems. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 9, 2015 4:47 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > Is there pressure in an enclosed part of the seal? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 09:01:42 -0700 > > > > Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening > > Brian > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:53:29 -0400 > > Explained in the original post! > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > How could it possibly get pressurized then? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 08:00:17 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > > If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what I have. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > Why don't you just have the motor open the ambient water instead > of trying to seal it? Couldn't you just have a small reservoir above the > motor for the compensating oil? > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 > > Hello friends, > > I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd > share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott > Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up > being just Snoopy. > > On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could > barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several > days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about > floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it > rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the > runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when > Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked > very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be > rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty > feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. > > Here's a few things we learned: > > 1) Of props and shrouds > The stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had > tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed > down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the > issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I > had a spare speed controller, so switched it out. > > The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at > least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current > Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's > shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip > causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had > already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going > to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the > pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes > lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was > protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, > so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double > failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was > out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical > system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple > on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they > *will* fail. > > 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil > Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a > puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died > altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we > thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical > incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that > sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I > disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor > turned out to be pressurized. > > Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the > system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that > air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation > bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the > pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you > will get water added to the oil *and the bubble stores the pressure*. > Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the > pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, > you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance > with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving > deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the > bubbles more easily. > > 3) An easy way to add buoyancy > Snoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one > occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one > float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting > off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I > just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a > charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the > ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K > sub, no special tubes required. > > Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but > more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep > terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really > good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly > negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking > aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the > water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly > positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, > but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused > difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five > feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a > pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an > inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about > 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed > from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a > video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we > had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the > crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately > reversing got us right off it. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 17:07:54 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 21:07:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <20150608094746.D3F49FB2@m0048136.ppops.net> <2101327236.8995460.1433796075197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11140951.9041747.1433797674672.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,what sort of air volume is there between the two seals?Perhaps when over a certain external pressure the water is getting past the first seal in to the cavitybetween the seals (which is not compensated) then at a similar internal pressure oil getspast the second seal & mixes with the water. The air between the seals would be compressed &expand on ascent forcing the oil & water mixture out.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Mine are actually Motor Guides on the sides, but they have the same seal arrangement minus the paper tube. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,I found this pdf on Minn kotta seals which shows two shaft seals.www.minnkotamotors.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3133 - - So if this is the case on Snoopy then yes you would get water past thefirst seal. Or the problem could be air in the cavity between the two sealsthat you wouldn't be able to eliminate.They say the Minn kotta seals are good to 100ft thoughonly rated for about 15ft. But this would depend on age & shaft condition.? ?The system on Snoopy & some other K boats, is just a flexible tubethat wraps around the motor. So not a great volume as compared to acommercial oil compensation systems.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Is there pressure in an enclosed part of the seal??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 09:01:42 -0700 Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:53:29 -0400 Explained in the original post! On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How could it possibly get pressurized then??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 08:00:17 -0400 Hi Brian, If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what I have. Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,????????? Why don't you just have the motor open the ambient water instead of trying to seal it?? Couldn't you just have a small reservoir above the motor for the compensating oil??Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 18:16:04 -0400 Hello friends, I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended up being just Snoopy. On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were clearer than most lakes. Here's a few things we learned: 1) Of props and shroudsThe stern thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps. However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed controller, so switched it out.? The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers. Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail. 2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out to be pressurized.? Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily. 3) An easy way to add buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required. Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water. I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it. Best, Alec? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 17:16:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 14:16:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433798194.22074.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under pressure. I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even a month later there is pressure until I open the ball valve. I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no luck. There has to be an air pocket that we are not getting rid of. Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the oil can not escape. There would be an air space trapped between the oil and water in the length of tube. That air bubble would simply move in two directions depending on depth. A very simple solution, more tricky for you because your motors rotate. I think I will test this idea since I have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM OK, let me try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 feet, and that initially I had 1 cubic inch of bubble in the system. Dive to 250 feet and what I would have thought would happen is that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced to 1/8th in3 due to 8 atmospheres of pressure increase. I would have expected that the compensation bladder would have just been squeezed by that volume, and that upon surfacing the bubble would go back to 1 in3 and the pressure in the motor to 1 atm. However, what we found was that the motor upon surfacing was significantly pressurized. The compensation bladder (i.e. hose) was visibly distended by internal pressure upon surfacing. There was no leak at the hose clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. Since there was over-pressure surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system during the dive, and as the hose clamps were leak free and the seal was not, I suspect the seal. Now the question is why water would get in. Bubble greater than the compression range of the hose? Seal offering less resistance than the hose to compression? Shaft pumping water under the seal during operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? I'm actually not sure - any theories are welcome. One interesting detail - the stern thruster, which was not working due to the issue with the speed controller, did not have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, did. The side thrusters being feeble can be explained by pressure on their seals, or just by their age and related wear on the commutators. I will be changing them, or at least their internals. Best, Alec? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It sounds like at some point water pressure at the seal was able to compress the bubble of air in the tube, the opposite of what was expected. I'm kind of stumped by the description of the motors performance being "feeble" however.? This couldn't have been primarily due to pressure I don't think.? Also, isn't an easy fix just to "clamp" the tube any place where liquid appears assuming the tube is held in a vertical position and the bubble is at the top (ie vise grip the tube). Jon On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening ? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 17:26:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 14:26:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433798194.22074.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind! The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM Alec, I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even a month later there is pressure until I open the ball valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air bubble would simply move in two directions depending on depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM OK, let me try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 feet, and that initially I had 1 cubic inch of bubble in the system. Dive to 250 feet and what I would have thought would happen is that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced to 1/8th in3 due to 8 atmospheres of pressure increase. I would have expected that the compensation bladder would have just been squeezed by that volume, and that upon surfacing the bubble would go back to 1 in3 and the pressure in the motor to 1 atm. However, what we found was that the motor upon surfacing was significantly pressurized. The compensation bladder (i.e. hose) was visibly distended by internal pressure upon surfacing. There was no leak at the hose clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. Since there was over-pressure surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system during the dive, and as the hose clamps were leak free and the seal was not, I suspect the seal. Now the question is why water would get in. Bubble greater than the compression range of the hose? Seal offering less resistance than the hose to compression? Shaft pumping water under the seal during operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? I'm actually not sure - any theories are welcome. One interesting detail - the stern thruster, which was not working due to the issue with the speed controller, did not have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, did. The side thrusters being feeble can be explained by pressure on their seals, or just by their age and related wear on the commutators. I will be changing them, or at least their internals. Best, Alec? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ? ???It sounds like at some point water pressure at the seal was able ? ? ???to compress the bubble of air in the tube, the opposite of what ? ? ???was expected. ? ? ??? ? ? ???I'm kind of stumped by the description of the motors performance ? ? ???being "feeble" however.? This couldn't have been primarily due to ? ? ???pressure I don't think.? Also, isn't an easy fix just to "clamp" ? ? ???the tube any place where liquid appears assuming the tube is held ? ? ???in a vertical position and the bubble is at the top (ie vise grip ? ? ???the tube). ? ? ??? ? ? ???Jon ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ???On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ???Hmm, guess I'm not getting what is happening ? ? ? ???? ? ? ? ???Brian ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 18:28:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 18:28:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind! The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides. > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM > > > Alec, > I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, > when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under > pressure. I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even > a month later there is pressure until I open the ball > valve. I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no > luck. There has to be an air pocket that we are not > getting rid of. Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, > forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the > oil can not escape. There would be an air space trapped > between the oil and water in the length of tube. That air > bubble would simply move in two directions depending on > depth. A very simple solution, more tricky for you because > your motors rotate. I think I will test this idea since I > have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM > > OK, let me > > try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard > trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 > feet, and that > initially I had 1 cubic inch > of bubble in the system. Dive > to 250 feet > and what I would have thought would happen is > that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced > to 1/8th in3 > due to 8 atmospheres of > pressure increase. I would have > expected > that the compensation bladder would have just been > squeezed by that volume, and that upon > surfacing the bubble > would go back to 1 in3 > and the pressure in the motor to 1 > atm. > However, what we found was that the motor upon > surfacing was significantly pressurized. The > compensation > bladder (i.e. hose) was > visibly distended by internal > pressure upon > surfacing. There was no leak at the hose > > clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. > Since there was over-pressure > > surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system > during the dive, and as the hose clamps were > leak free and > the seal was not, I suspect > the seal. Now the question is > why water > would get in. Bubble greater than the compression > range of the hose? Seal offering less > resistance than the > hose to compression? > Shaft pumping water under the seal > during > operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? > I'm actually not sure - any theories are > welcome. One > interesting detail - the stern > thruster, which was not > working due to the > issue with the speed controller, did not > > have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, > did. > The side > thrusters being feeble can be explained by > pressure on their > seals, or just by their > age and related wear on the > commutators. I > will be changing them, or at least their > > internals. > > Best, > Alec > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at > 2:54 > PM, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like at some point water pressure at > the > seal was able > > to compress the bubble of air in the tube, > the > opposite of what > > was expected. > > > > I'm kind of stumped by > the description of the > motors > performance > being > "feeble" however. This couldn't > have been primarily due to > > pressure I don't think. Also, > isn't an easy > fix just to > "clamp" > the > tube any place where liquid appears assuming the > tube is held > > in a vertical position and the bubble is at > the top > (ie vise grip > > the tube). > > > > Jon > > > > > > On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian > Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Hmm, > guess I'm not getting what is > > happening > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 18:52:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2015 15:52:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Sounds to me that internal engines in the pressure hull with through shaft and packing glands are the only way to go. Keith T Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind! The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides. >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM >> >> >> Alec, >> I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, >> when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under >> pressure. I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even >> a month later there is pressure until I open the ball >> valve. I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no >> luck. There has to be an air pocket that we are not >> getting rid of. Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, >> forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the >> oil can not escape. There would be an air space trapped >> between the oil and water in the length of tube. That air >> bubble would simply move in two directions depending on >> depth. A very simple solution, more tricky for you because >> your motors rotate. I think I will test this idea since I >> have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >> Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM >> >> OK, let me >> >> try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >> trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 >> feet, and that >> initially I had 1 cubic inch >> of bubble in the system. Dive >> to 250 feet >> and what I would have thought would happen is >> that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced >> to 1/8th in3 >> due to 8 atmospheres of >> pressure increase. I would have >> expected >> that the compensation bladder would have just been >> squeezed by that volume, and that upon >> surfacing the bubble >> would go back to 1 in3 >> and the pressure in the motor to 1 >> atm. >> However, what we found was that the motor upon >> surfacing was significantly pressurized. The >> compensation >> bladder (i.e. hose) was >> visibly distended by internal >> pressure upon >> surfacing. There was no leak at the hose >> >> clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >> Since there was over-pressure >> >> surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >> during the dive, and as the hose clamps were >> leak free and >> the seal was not, I suspect >> the seal. Now the question is >> why water >> would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >> range of the hose? Seal offering less >> resistance than the >> hose to compression? >> Shaft pumping water under the seal >> during >> operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >> I'm actually not sure - any theories are >> welcome. One >> interesting detail - the stern >> thruster, which was not >> working due to the >> issue with the speed controller, did not >> >> have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >> did. >> The side >> thrusters being feeble can be explained by >> pressure on their >> seals, or just by their >> age and related wear on the >> commutators. I >> will be changing them, or at least their >> >> internals. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at >> 2:54 >> PM, Jon Wallace via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It sounds like at some point water pressure at >> the >> seal was able >> >> to compress the bubble of air in the tube, >> the >> opposite of what >> >> was expected. >> >> >> >> I'm kind of stumped by >> the description of the >> motors >> performance >> being >> "feeble" however. This couldn't >> have been primarily due to >> >> pressure I don't think. Also, >> isn't an easy >> fix just to >> "clamp" >> the >> tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >> tube is held >> >> in a vertical position and the bubble is at >> the top >> (ie vise grip >> >> the tube). >> >> >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian >> Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hmm, >> guess I'm not getting what is >> >> happening >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment >> Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 18:53:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:53:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433804018.49884.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am expanding on Brian's idea to have the motor open to the water. A simple hose routed to create traps like your kitchen sink has. The oil can't escape because the hose goes vertical from the motor then loops back down trapping air at the top of the loop. Water can't get in because there is air in the line at the top of the loop. As long as you start with a large enough loop trapping air, the oil will never escape and the water won't get in the motor. Oh ya the hose is open at the end. The pressure is exactly the same on both sides of the seal all the time., An air bubble won't bother anything as long as the air in the hose loop exceeds the volume of an air bubble in the motor. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:28 PM Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind!? The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides.? ? > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM > > > Alec, > I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, > when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under > pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even > a month later there is pressure until I open the ball > valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no > luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not > getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, > forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the > oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped > between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air > bubble would simply move in two directions depending on > depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because > your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I > have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" >? Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM > >? OK, let me > > try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >? trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 > feet, and that >? initially I had 1 cubic inch > of bubble in the system. Dive >? to 250 feet > and what I would have thought would happen is >? that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced > to 1/8th in3 >? due to 8 atmospheres of > pressure increase. I would have >? expected > that the compensation bladder would have just been >? squeezed by that volume, and that upon > surfacing the bubble >? would go back to 1 in3 > and the pressure in the motor to 1 >? atm. > However, what we found was that the motor upon >? surfacing was significantly pressurized. The > compensation >? bladder (i.e. hose) was > visibly distended by internal >? pressure upon > surfacing. There was no leak at the hose > > clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >? Since there was over-pressure > > surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >? during the dive, and as the hose clamps were > leak free and >? the seal was not, I suspect > the seal. Now the question is >? why water > would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >? range of the hose? Seal offering less > resistance than the >? hose to compression? > Shaft pumping water under the seal >? during > operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >? I'm actually not sure - any theories are > welcome. One >? interesting detail - the stern > thruster, which was not >? working due to the > issue with the speed controller, did not > > have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >? did. >? The side >? thrusters being feeble can be explained by > pressure on their >? seals, or just by their > age and related wear on the >? commutators. I > will be changing them, or at least their > > internals. > >? Best, >? Alec >? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at > 2:54 >? PM, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > >? ? >? >? ? >? ? >? ? >? >? ? > >? ? >? ? It sounds like at some point water pressure at > the >? seal was able >? ? >? ? to compress the bubble of air in the tube, > the >? opposite of what >? ? >? ? was expected. > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? I'm kind of stumped by > the description of the >? motors > performance >? ? ? ? being > "feeble" however.? This couldn't >? have been primarily due to >? >? ? ? pressure I don't think.? Also, > isn't an easy >? fix just to > "clamp" >? ? ? ? the > tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >? tube is held >? ? >? ? in a vertical position and the bubble is at > the top >? (ie vise grip >? ? >? ? the tube). > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? Jon > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian > Cox via >? Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? >? ? >? ? ? ? ? Hmm, > guess I'm not getting what is > > happening >? ? ? ? ??? >? ? ? ? ? Brian > > >? ? ? ? ? >? >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? ? > >? ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >? -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 18:59:03 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:59:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433804343.31364.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Kieth, You have an argument there for sure. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:52 PM Sounds to me that internal engines in the pressure hull with through shaft and packing glands are the only way to go. Keith T Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind!? The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides.? ? >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM >> >> >> Alec, >> I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, >> when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under >> pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even >> a month later there is pressure until I open the ball >> valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no >> luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not >> getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, >> forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the >> oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped >> between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air >> bubble would simply move in two directions depending on >> depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because >> your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I >> have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>? Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>? To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >>? Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM >> >>? OK, let me >> >> try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >>? trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 >> feet, and that >>? initially I had 1 cubic inch >> of bubble in the system. Dive >>? to 250 feet >> and what I would have thought would happen is >>? that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced >> to 1/8th in3 >>? due to 8 atmospheres of >> pressure increase. I would have >>? expected >> that the compensation bladder would have just been >>? squeezed by that volume, and that upon >> surfacing the bubble >>? would go back to 1 in3 >> and the pressure in the motor to 1 >>? atm. >> However, what we found was that the motor upon >>? surfacing was significantly pressurized. The >> compensation >>? bladder (i.e. hose) was >> visibly distended by internal >>? pressure upon >> surfacing. There was no leak at the hose >> >> clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >>? Since there was over-pressure >> >> surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >>? during the dive, and as the hose clamps were >> leak free and >>? the seal was not, I suspect >> the seal. Now the question is >>? why water >> would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >>? range of the hose? Seal offering less >> resistance than the >>? hose to compression? >> Shaft pumping water under the seal >>? during >> operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >>? I'm actually not sure - any theories are >> welcome. One >>? interesting detail - the stern >> thruster, which was not >>? working due to the >> issue with the speed controller, did not >> >> have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >>? did. >>? The side >>? thrusters being feeble can be explained by >> pressure on their >>? seals, or just by their >> age and related wear on the >>? commutators. I >> will be changing them, or at least their >> >> internals. >> >>? Best, >>? Alec >>? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at >> 2:54 >>? PM, Jon Wallace via >> Personal_Submersibles >>? wrote: >> >>? ? >>? >>? ? >>? ? >>? ? >>? >>? ? >> >>? ? >>? ? It sounds like at some point water pressure at >> the >>? seal was able >>? ? >>? ? to compress the bubble of air in the tube, >> the >>? opposite of what >>? ? >>? ? was expected. >> >>? ? ? ? >> >>? ? ? ? I'm kind of stumped by >> the description of the >>? motors >> performance >>? ? ? ? being >> "feeble" however.? This couldn't >>? have been primarily due to >>? >>? ? ? pressure I don't think.? Also, >> isn't an easy >>? fix just to >> "clamp" >>? ? ? ? the >> tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >>? tube is held >>? ? >>? ? in a vertical position and the bubble is at >> the top >>? (ie vise grip >>? ? >>? ? the tube). >> >>? ? ? ? >> >>? ? ? ? Jon >> >>? ? ? ? >> >>? ? ? ? >> >>? ? ? ? On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian >> Cox via >>? Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>? ? ? >>? ? ? >>? ? >>? ? >>? ? ? ? ? Hmm, >> guess I'm not getting what is >> >> happening >>? ? ? ? ??? >>? ? ? ? ? Brian >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? >>? >>? ? ? >>? ? ? >>? ? ? >> >>? ? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>? Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >> >>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>? -----Inline Attachment >> Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 18:59:29 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2015 18:59:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fwd: new zealand bathymetric charts to give away, 87 sheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55761E51.7040706@ohiohills.com> -------- Forwarded Message -------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Greg Armento *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2015 6:18 PM *To:* Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship (MAPS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU) *Subject:* new zealand bathymetric charts to give away, 87 sheets Offering these charts: sedimentary, bathymetry, coastal, about 87, of New Zealand. Preference given to U.S. library and willing to take all of them. Thanks. Greg Armento Map Librarian Greg.Armento at csulb.edu New Zealand Charts NotesNameScaleYearEd.SeriesType Auckland1,000k1967OceanicBathy Banks200k1979Coastal Sediments Banks200k1977Coastal Bathy Bay of Plenty200k1979Coastal Sediments Bay of Plenty200k19892ndCoastal Bathy Bellaney1,000k1970OceanicBathy Bellona1,000k1977OceanicBathy Bounty1,000k1982CoastalSediments Bounty1,000k19702ndOceanic Bathy Campbell200k19882ndCoastalBathy Campbell1,000k1967Oceanic Bathy Central Hikurangi Geodynz Swath Maps: Depths, Texture and Geological Intrepretation500k1999Misc Series #77 Chatham1,000k1969OceanicBathy Cook1,000k1968OceanicBathy Cook1,000k19912ndOceanicBathy Cook 1,000k1975OceanicSediments Cook Strait200k1980CoastalSediments 2 copiesCook Strait200k19963rd CoastalBathy Cook Strait200k1966CoastalBathy Cook Strait200k19802ndCoastalBathy Cuvier200k19892ndCoastal Bathy East Cape200k19962ndCoastal ChartBathy East Cape200k19962ndCoastalBathy East Cape200k1977CoastalBathy Egmont200k1966CoastalProv. Bathy Ellesmere200k1981Coastal Sediments Ellesmere200k1980Coastal Bathy Esperance1,000k1997Oceanic ChartBathy Foulwind2000k1979CoastalBathy Foveaux200k1966CoastalSediments Foveaux200k1964CoastalBathy George Sound20k1982Misc Series #59Bathy Hauraki200k19922ndCoastal ChartBathy Hauraki200k1980Coastal Sediments Hauraki200k1974Coastal Bathy Hjort1,000k1976Oceanic Bathy Hokianga200k1984Coastal Bathy Hokitika200k1972Coastal Prov. Bathy Jackson200k1981Coastal Bathy Kaikoura Canyon: Depths, Shelf Texture and Whale Dives40k1998Misc Series #78 Kaipara 200k1984CoastalBathy Kandavu1,000k1975OceanicBathy Karamea200k1972CoastalBathy Lachlan100k1995Oceanic ChartBathy Lord Howe1,000k1968OceanicBathy Macquarie1,000k1967OceanicBathy 2 copiesMahia200k19922ndCoastal ChartBathy Mahia200k1961CoastalBathy Mahia200k1968CoastalSediments Manukau and Waitemata Harbours Sediments75K1994Misc Series #70Sediments 2 copiesMernoo200k19932ndCoastal ChartBathy Mernoo200k1977CoastalProv. Bathy Mokau200k1983CoastalSediments Mokau200k1973Coastal Prov. Bathy New Zealand Region 4,000k1997Misc Series #73Bathy Norfolk1,000k1969OceanicBathy North Cape200k1990Coastal Bathy Nuggets200k19872ndCoastal Bathy Oamaru200k1986Coastal Sediments Oamaru200k1981Coastal Bathy Otagu200k19862ndCoastal ChartBathy Palliser200k19882ndCoastal Bathy 2 copiesPatea200k19922ndCoastal ChartBathy 2 copiesPatea200k19922ndCoastal ChartSediments Patea200k1970Coastal Sediments Patea200k1969Coastal Bathy Pegasus200k19862ndCoastal Sediments Pegasus200k19832ndCoastal ChartBathy Poor Knights200k19952ndCoastal ChartBathy Poor Knights200k1974Coastal Sediments Poor Knights200k1971Coastal Bathy Port Jackson1,000k1975Oceanic Bathy Raglan200k1982Coastal Sediments Raglan200k1968Coastal Bathy Rarotonga1,000k1969Oceanic Bathy Resolution1,000k1972Oceanic Bathy Rotuma1,000k1974Oceanic Bathy South Hikurangi Geodynz Swath Maps: Depts, Texture and Geological Interpretation500k1998Misc Series #75 Southern Kermadec Volcanoes400k1995Misc Series #71 Tasman200k1987Coastal Sediments Tasman200k19862ndCoastal Bathy Three Kings1,000k1979Oceanic Sediments Three Kings200k1990Coastal ChartBathy Three Kings1,000k1968Oceanic ChartBathy Tonga1,000k1971Oceanic Bathy Turnagain200k1970Coastal ChartSediments Turnagain200k19762ndCoastal Bathy Wellington South Coast Substrates15k1993Misc Series #69 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 19:54:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 23:54:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433804018.49884.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433804018.49884.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1798411987.7030205.1433807682554.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,below is Herve Jauberts "Intruder" wet sub.It has a can around the outboard motor shaft that is open at the bottom.So similar principle of air compensation.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I am expanding on Brian's idea to have the motor open to the water.? A simple hose routed to create traps like your kitchen sink has.? The oil can't escape because the hose goes vertical from the motor then loops back down trapping air at the top of the loop.? Water can't get in because there is air in the line at the top of the loop. As long as you start with a large enough loop trapping air, the oil will never escape and the water won't get in the motor.? Oh ya the hose is open at the end.? The pressure is exactly the same on both sides of the seal all the time., An air bubble won't bother anything as long as the air in the hose loop exceeds the volume of an air bubble in the motor. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:28 PM Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind!? The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides.? ? > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM > > > Alec, > I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, > when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under > pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even > a month later there is pressure until I open the ball > valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no > luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not > getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, > forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the > oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped > between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air > bubble would simply move in two directions depending on > depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because > your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I > have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" >? Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM > >? OK, let me > > try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >? trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 > feet, and that >? initially I had 1 cubic inch > of bubble in the system. Dive >? to 250 feet > and what I would have thought would happen is >? that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced > to 1/8th in3 >? due to 8 atmospheres of > pressure increase. I would have >? expected > that the compensation bladder would have just been >? squeezed by that volume, and that upon > surfacing the bubble >? would go back to 1 in3 > and the pressure in the motor to 1 >? atm. > However, what we found was that the motor upon >? surfacing was significantly pressurized. The > compensation >? bladder (i.e. hose) was > visibly distended by internal >? pressure upon > surfacing. There was no leak at the hose > > clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >? Since there was over-pressure > > surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >? during the dive, and as the hose clamps were > leak free and >? the seal was not, I suspect > the seal. Now the question is >? why water > would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >? range of the hose? Seal offering less > resistance than the >? hose to compression? > Shaft pumping water under the seal >? during > operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >? I'm actually not sure - any theories are > welcome. One >? interesting detail - the stern > thruster, which was not >? working due to the > issue with the speed controller, did not > > have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >? did. >? The side >? thrusters being feeble can be explained by > pressure on their >? seals, or just by their > age and related wear on the >? commutators. I > will be changing them, or at least their > > internals. > >? Best, >? Alec >? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at > 2:54 >? PM, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > >? ? >? >? ? >? ? >? ? >? >? ? > >? ? >? ? It sounds like at some point water pressure at > the >? seal was able >? ? >? ? to compress the bubble of air in the tube, > the >? opposite of what >? ? >? ? was expected. > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? I'm kind of stumped by > the description of the >? motors > performance >? ? ? ? being > "feeble" however.? This couldn't >? have been primarily due to >? >? ? ? pressure I don't think.? Also, > isn't an easy >? fix just to > "clamp" >? ? ? ? the > tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >? tube is held >? ? >? ? in a vertical position and the bubble is at > the top >? (ie vise grip >? ? >? ? the tube). > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? Jon > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian > Cox via >? Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? >? ? >? ? ? ? ? Hmm, > guess I'm not getting what is > > happening >? ? ? ? ??? >? ? ? ? ? Brian > > >? ? ? ? ? >? >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? ? > >? ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >? -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 8 20:08:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 17:08:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1798411987.7030205.1433807682554.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433808524.45778.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Yes so simple, and very nifty! Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 7:54 PM Hank,below is Herve Jauberts "Intruder" wet sub.It has a can around the outboard motor shaft that is open at the bottom.So similar principle of air compensation.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I am expanding on Brian's idea to have the motor open to the water.? A simple hose routed to create traps like your kitchen sink has.? The oil can't escape because the hose goes vertical from the motor then loops back down trapping air at the top of the loop.? Water can't get in because there is air in the line at the top of the loop. As long as you start with a large enough loop trapping air, the oil will never escape and the water won't get in the motor.? Oh ya the hose is open at the end.? The pressure is exactly the same on both sides of the seal all the time., An air bubble won't bother anything as long as the air in the hose loop exceeds the volume of an air bubble in the motor. Hank------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:28 PM Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind!? The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides.? ? > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM > > > Alec, > I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, > when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under > pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even > a month later there is pressure until I open the ball > valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no > luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not > getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, > forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the > oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped > between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air > bubble would simply move in two directions depending on > depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because > your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I > have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" >? Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM > >? OK, let me > > try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >? trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 > feet, and that >? initially I had 1 cubic inch > of bubble in the system. Dive >? to 250 feet > and what I would have thought would happen is >? that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced > to 1/8th in3 >? due to 8 atmospheres of > pressure increase. I would have >? expected > that the compensation bladder would have just been >? squeezed by that volume, and that upon > surfacing the bubble >? would go back to 1 in3 > and the pressure in the motor to 1 >? atm. > However, what we found was that the motor upon >? surfacing was significantly pressurized. The > compensation >? bladder (i.e. hose) was > visibly distended by internal >? pressure upon > surfacing. There was no leak at the hose > > clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >? Since there was over-pressure > > surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >? during the dive, and as the hose clamps were > leak free and >? the seal was not, I suspect > the seal. Now the question is >? why water > would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >? range of the hose? Seal offering less > resistance than the >? hose to compression? > Shaft pumping water under the seal >? during > operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >? I'm actually not sure - any theories are > welcome. One >? interesting detail - the stern > thruster, which was not >? working due to the > issue with the speed controller, did not > > have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >? did. >? The side >? thrusters being feeble can be explained by > pressure on their >? seals, or just by their > age and related wear on the >? commutators. I > will be changing them, or at least their > > internals. > >? Best, >? Alec >? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at > 2:54 >? PM, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > >? ? >? >? ? >? ? >? ? >? >? ? > >? ? >? ? It sounds like at some point water pressure at > the >? seal was able >? ? >? ? to compress the bubble of air in the tube, > the >? opposite of what >? ? >? ? was expected. > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? I'm kind of stumped by > the description of the >? motors > performance >? ? ? ? being > "feeble" however.? This couldn't >? have been primarily due to >? >? ? ? pressure I don't think.? Also, > isn't an easy >? fix just to > "clamp" >? ? ? ? the > tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >? tube is held >? ? >? ? in a vertical position and the bubble is at > the top >? (ie vise grip >? ? >? ? the tube). > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? Jon > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian > Cox via >? Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? >? ? >? ? ? ? ? Hmm, > guess I'm not getting what is > > happening >? ? ? ? ??? >? ? ? ? ? Brian > > >? ? ? ? ? >? >? ? ? >? ? ? >? ? ? > >? ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >? -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 00:21:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 21:21:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433804343.31364.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433804343.31364.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d201d0a26b$bb15e8c0$3141ba40$@telus.net> How about an internal pressure hull mounted diesel generator and batteries with cable thru-hulls to the main surface drive motor and the side thrusters? Exhaust and intake pipes installed in a tail fin/rudder. The genset powers the hp compressor while powering the main motor to and from the dive site. Why not mount the motors within pressure cans and power the props through magnetic couplers? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-08-15 3:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Kieth, You have an argument there for sure. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/8/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:52 PM Sounds to me that internal engines in the pressure hull with through shaft and packing glands are the only way to go. Keith T Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hang on, I'm not understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the "oil traps"? > > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind!? The power loss your experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the motor is truly equal on both sides. >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM >> >> >> Alec, >> I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, >> when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under >> pressure.? I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even >> a month later there is pressure until I open the ball >> valve.? I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no >> luck.? There has to be an air pocket that we are not >> getting rid of.? Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, >> forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the >> oil can not escape.? There would be an air space trapped >> between the oil and water in the length of tube.? That air >> bubble would simply move in two directions depending on >> depth.? A very simple solution, more tricky for you because >> your motors rotate.? I think I will test this idea since I >> have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>? Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >>? To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >>? Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM >> >>? OK, let me >> >> try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard >>? trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 >> feet, and that >>? initially I had 1 cubic inch >> of bubble in the system. Dive >>? to 250 feet >> and what I would have thought would happen is >>? that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced >> to 1/8th in3 >>? due to 8 atmospheres of >> pressure increase. I would have >>? expected >> that the compensation bladder would have just been >>? squeezed by that volume, and that upon >> surfacing the bubble >>? would go back to 1 in3 >> and the pressure in the motor to 1 >>? atm. >> However, what we found was that the motor upon >>? surfacing was significantly pressurized. The >> compensation >>? bladder (i.e. hose) was >> visibly distended by internal >>? pressure upon >> surfacing. There was no leak at the hose >> >> clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. >>? Since there was over-pressure >> >> surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system >>? during the dive, and as the hose clamps were >> leak free and >>? the seal was not, I suspect >> the seal. Now the question is >>? why water >> would get in. Bubble greater than the compression >>? range of the hose? Seal offering less >> resistance than the >>? hose to compression? >> Shaft pumping water under the seal >>? during >> operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? >>? I'm actually not sure - any theories are >> welcome. One >>? interesting detail - the stern >> thruster, which was not >>? working due to the >> issue with the speed controller, did not >> >> have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, >>? did. >>? The side >>? thrusters being feeble can be explained by >> pressure on their >>? seals, or just by their >> age and related wear on the >>? commutators. I >> will be changing them, or at least their >> >> internals. >> >>? Best, >>? Alec >>? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at >> 2:54 >>? PM, Jon Wallace via >> Personal_Submersibles >>? wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>? ? It sounds like at some point water pressure at >> the >>? seal was able >> >>? ? to compress the bubble of air in the tube, >> the >>? opposite of what >> >>? ? was expected. >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? I'm kind of stumped by >> the description of the >>? motors >> performance >>? ? ? ? being >> "feeble" however.? This couldn't >>? have been primarily due to >> >>? ? ? pressure I don't think. Also, >> isn't an easy >>? fix just to >> "clamp" >>? ? ? ? the >> tube any place where liquid appears assuming the >>? tube is held >> >>? ? in a vertical position and the bubble is at >> the top >>? (ie vise grip >> >>? ? the tube). >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? Jon >> >> >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian >> Cox via >>? Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? Hmm, >> guess I'm not getting what is >> >> happening >> >>? ? ? ? ? Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>? Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >> >>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>? -----Inline Attachment >> Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 00:51:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 21:51:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hanks Trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00dd01d0a26f$f6ce5010$e46af030$@telus.net> Excellent, Hank! From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-08-15 5:46 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hanks Trailer Hank asked me to post this pic of his new trailer. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42616 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 08:43:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 08:43:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433798194.22074.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Would it not be an issue that oil is lighter than water, and therefore would just float out? On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 5:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Actually Brian's idea is picking up steam in my mind! The power loss your > experiencing would not happen if the motor is open to the water because the > motor is truly equal on both sides. > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM > > > Alec, > I have the same problem with my drive on Gamma, > when returning to the surface the shaft tube is under > pressure. I have a ball valve mounted to the tube and even > a month later there is pressure until I open the ball > valve. I have tried a softer compensation bladder with no > luck. There has to be an air pocket that we are not > getting rid of. Brian's suggestion is not bad at all, > forget the bladder and rig an open hose with traps so the > oil can not escape. There would be an air space trapped > between the oil and water in the length of tube. That air > bubble would simply move in two directions depending on > depth. A very simple solution, more tricky for you because > your motors rotate. I think I will test this idea since I > have my tail assembly off for repairs anyways. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48 PM > > OK, let me > > try to reason this through again. Lets say the standard > trolling motor shaft seal is watertight to 50 > feet, and that > initially I had 1 cubic inch > of bubble in the system. Dive > to 250 feet > and what I would have thought would happen is > that the 1 cubic inch of air would be reduced > to 1/8th in3 > due to 8 atmospheres of > pressure increase. I would have > expected > that the compensation bladder would have just been > squeezed by that volume, and that upon > surfacing the bubble > would go back to 1 in3 > and the pressure in the motor to 1 > atm. > However, what we found was that the motor upon > surfacing was significantly pressurized. The > compensation > bladder (i.e. hose) was > visibly distended by internal > pressure upon > surfacing. There was no leak at the hose > > clamps, but oil was leaking from the shaft seal. > Since there was over-pressure > > surfaced, clearly water had to have entered the system > during the dive, and as the hose clamps were > leak free and > the seal was not, I suspect > the seal. Now the question is > why water > would get in. Bubble greater than the compression > range of the hose? Seal offering less > resistance than the > hose to compression? > Shaft pumping water under the seal > during > operation due to abrasions? Thermal contraction? > I'm actually not sure - any theories are > welcome. One > interesting detail - the stern > thruster, which was not > working due to the > issue with the speed controller, did not > > have any oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating, > did. > The side > thrusters being feeble can be explained by > pressure on their > seals, or just by their > age and related wear on the > commutators. I > will be changing them, or at least their > > internals. > > Best, > Alec > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at > 2:54 > PM, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like at some point water pressure at > the > seal was able > > to compress the bubble of air in the tube, > the > opposite of what > > was expected. > > > > I'm kind of stumped by > the description of the > motors > performance > being > "feeble" however. This couldn't > have been primarily due to > > pressure I don't think. Also, > isn't an easy > fix just to > "clamp" > the > tube any place where liquid appears assuming the > tube is held > > in a vertical position and the bubble is at > the top > (ie vise grip > > the tube). > > > > Jon > > > > > > On 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian > Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Hmm, > guess I'm not getting what is > > happening > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 08:49:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 08:49:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1433798194.22074.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1433798802.55454.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5576E0E2.4030707@psubs.org> How to calculate the total air gap volume for a particular depth? Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 09:18:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 06:18:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <5576E0E2.4030707@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The oil can't float past the air pocket between the oil and water Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 10:54:39 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 02:54:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> If you just had a nipple in the top of the motor & a tube coming off it & going straight down it would work. But Snoopy's side thrusters rotate, so that would complicate things. I doubt it would solve the slow motor problem because it must take less than 1 psi to squeeze the existing tube & equalise ( if there are no major air voids) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/06/2015, at 1:18 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The oil can't float past the air pocket between the oil and water > Hank > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 12:49:38 PM > > > How to calculate the total air gap volume for a particular depth? > > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 11:04:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 08:04:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <20150609080447.D46D74E5@m0005297.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 11:21:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 11:21:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> I've done some initial calcs and it looks to me that a LARGE air gap at sea level and a sharp bending trap is necessary to maintain a sustainable gap at depth. For .25 inch ID tubing, an 18 inch linear air space gap (or trap if you think of it like a house sink drain) at sea-level would be compressed to about 1.8 inches of air gap at 350 feet. The deeper you go, the more tube required to maintain a reasonable air gap at depth. Here are my calcs for 1/4 inch ID plastic tubing... Ps = Sea Level pressure in ATM = 1 Pd = Pressure at 350 feet seawater in ATM = 10.74 Vs = Air gap volume at sea level = .125*.125 * pi * 18 Vd = Air gap volume at 350 feet = Vs * ( Ps / Pd) Vs = .883 Vd = .0822 Air Gap = 1.8 inches in length at 350 feet From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 11:59:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 11:59:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> Message-ID: <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> So fixed motors win again? A "p-trap" isn't even necessary. A rigid straight tube of sufficient length would be enough. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 12:23:59 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> Scratch that, not true...still need the trap on fixed motors. On 6/9/2015 11:59 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > So fixed motors win again? A "p-trap" isn't even necessary. A rigid > straight tube of sufficient length would be enough. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 13:49:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 05:49:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just correcting myself. I said it would only take less than a psi to squeeze the existing tube, but would it??? Yes if you just squeezed it from side to side with your fingers, but If the water is squeezing evenly around the tube, perhaps it would take a lot of psi to get any crushing of the tube that would cause equalisation. Would be a good pressure chamber experiment. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/06/2015, at 2:54 am, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > If you just had a nipple in the top of the motor & a tube coming > off it & going straight down it would work. But Snoopy's side > thrusters rotate, so that would complicate things. > I doubt it would solve the slow motor problem because it must > take less than 1 psi to squeeze the existing tube & equalise ( if > there are no major air voids) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 10/06/2015, at 1:18 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The oil can't float past the air pocket between the oil and water >> Hank >> >> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 12:49:38 PM >> >> >> How to calculate the total air gap volume for a particular depth? >> >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 13:49:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 05:49:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just correcting myself. I said it would only take less than a psi to squeeze the existing tube, but would it??? Yes if you just squeezed it from side to side with your fingers, but If the water is squeezing evenly around the tube, perhaps it would take a lot of psi to get any crushing of the tube that would cause equalisation. Would be a good pressure chamber experiment. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/06/2015, at 2:54 am, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > If you just had a nipple in the top of the motor & a tube coming > off it & going straight down it would work. But Snoopy's side > thrusters rotate, so that would complicate things. > I doubt it would solve the slow motor problem because it must > take less than 1 psi to squeeze the existing tube & equalise ( if > there are no major air voids) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 10/06/2015, at 1:18 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The oil can't float past the air pocket between the oil and water >> Hank >> >> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 12:49:38 PM >> >> >> How to calculate the total air gap volume for a particular depth? >> >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 14:11:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 12:11:19 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> Message-ID: <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem. Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts, density differences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 14:29:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 11:29:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys, Just an observation here. How difficult would it be to place the thruster into a vacumm chamber, fill up the unit with oil, run the vacumm for a little bit to draw out the air from the seal area, top off the oil as needed and close up the thruster. Then no air exists in the thruster and is ready to be placed into service. Doug Jackson uses a similar method to pot epoxy into his electronics before it cures so there are now air bubbles. Just a thought.. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Just correcting myself. I said it would only take less than a psi > to squeeze the existing tube, but would it??? Yes if you just squeezed > it from side to side with your fingers, but If the water is squeezing > evenly > around the tube, perhaps it would take a lot of psi to get any crushing > of the tube that would cause equalisation. > Would be a good pressure chamber experiment. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/06/2015, at 2:54 am, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > If you just had a nipple in the top of the motor & a tube coming > off it & going straight down it would work. But Snoopy's side > thrusters rotate, so that would complicate things. > I doubt it would solve the slow motor problem because it must > take less than 1 psi to squeeze the existing tube & equalise ( if > there are no major air voids) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/06/2015, at 1:18 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > The oil can't float past the air pocket between the oil and water > Hank > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > * Sent: * Tue, Jun 9, 2015 12:49:38 PM > > > How to calculate the total air gap volume for a particular depth? > > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 15:17:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 15:17:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55773BD0.2000901@psubs.org> What about removing the cardboard spacer between the two seals, or the second seal completely, and get rid of the air space between them. With oil compensation there is no need for two seals. On 6/9/2015 2:29 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Guys, > Just an observation here. How difficult would it be to place the > thruster into a vacumm chamber, fill up the unit with oil, run the > vacumm for a little bit to draw out the air from the seal area, top > off the oil as needed and close up the thruster. Then no air exists in > the thruster and is ready to be placed into service. Doug Jackson > uses a similar method to pot epoxy into his electronics before it > cures so there are now air bubbles. Just a thought.. > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 15:50:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 15:50:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <55773BD0.2000901@psubs.org> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <43A6173C-D197-4B7B-A096-8E01D16F43B9@yahoo.com> <55773BD0.2000901@psubs.org> Message-ID: Yes, I'm thinking of doing just that... one seal should do. On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What about removing the cardboard spacer between the two seals, or the > second seal completely, and get rid of the air space between them. With > oil compensation there is no need for two seals. > > > On 6/9/2015 2:29 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> Just an observation here. How difficult would it be to place the thruster >> into a vacumm chamber, fill up the unit with oil, run the vacumm for a >> little bit to draw out the air from the seal area, top off the oil as >> needed and close up the thruster. Then no air exists in the thruster and is >> ready to be placed into service. Doug Jackson uses a similar method to pot >> epoxy into his electronics before it cures so there are now air bubbles. >> Just a thought.. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 17:29:23 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 21:29:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! densitydifferences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 18:11:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 18:11:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in their > pressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using in > our flexible compensation hoses? > The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ft > for a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness. > I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiring > running through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second > thoughts. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient > pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in > the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. > Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your > compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal > expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, > rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if > you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or > elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate > monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks > well in advance of when they actually become a problem. Ambient-only > compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer > viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! density differences (gravity induced > exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but > cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 18:46:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 22:46:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1671516085.10078471.1433889979963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks.The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure.As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst pressure.I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal and thenexternal pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal in both cases.This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize significantly.The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! densitydifferences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 18:55:28 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 18:55:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1671516085.10078471.1433889979963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1671516085.10078471.1433889979963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wow. If there is no mistake that is really counter intuitive, because the hose feels super pliable in your fingers - almost like those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know what I mean. The size I'm using is half the wall thickness of what you calculated with, if that makes a difference. It's 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" thickness. Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks. > The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure. > As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst > pressure. > I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal > and then > external pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal > in both cases. > This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize > significantly. > The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only > 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less > resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in their > pressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using in > our flexible compensation hoses? > The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ft > for a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness. > I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiring > running through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second > thoughts. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient > pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in > the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. > Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your > compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal > expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, > rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if > you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or > elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate > monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks > well in advance of when they actually become a problem. Ambient-only > compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer > viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! density differences (gravity induced > exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but > cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 19:15:04 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 23:15:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1433855916.68421.YahooMailMobile@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <55770467.3000506@psubs.org> <55770D6E.9020600@psubs.org> <5577131F.3030403@psubs.org> <13da1df3-c619-4d63-b919-ce824c6f3f80@email.android.com> <1846608385.10039603.1433885363570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1671516085.10078471.1433889979963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2073404461.37021.1433891704653.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec,that one is also showing 40psi.This is a Sean type problem.I guess it's a bit like snapping a match stick. Anyone can do it, but try breaking it bycrushing it from end to end. In this case you can squeeze the tube & bend it but try?crushing it cross sectionally with even pressure all around.A solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose with a hose crimpso that a point of weakness is created for the water pressure to continue crushing thetube from there along it's length.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Wow. If there is no mistake that is really counter intuitive, because the hose feels super pliable in your fingers - almost like those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know what I mean. The size I'm using is half the wall thickness of what you calculated with, if that makes a difference. It's 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" thickness. Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks.The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure.As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst pressure.I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal and thenexternal pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal in both cases.This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize significantly.The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! densitydifferences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 19:27:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 16:27:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <2073404461.37021.1433891704653.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433892420.31722.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I think it will flatten under water right away because it is not round and has little strength to keep it round. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM Hi Alec,that one is also showing 40psi.This is a Sean type problem.I guess it's a bit like snapping a match stick. Anyone can do it, but try breaking it bycrushing it from end to end. In this case you can squeeze the tube & bend it but try?crushing it cross sectionally with even pressure all around.A solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose with a hose crimpso that a point of weakness is created for the water pressure to continue crushing thetube from there along it's length.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Wow. If there is no mistake that is really counter intuitive, because the hose feels super pliable in your fingers - almost like those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know what I mean. The size I'm using is half the wall thickness of what you calculated with, if that makes a difference. It's 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" thickness. Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks.The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure.As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst pressure.I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal and thenexternal pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal in both cases.This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize significantly.The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! density differences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 19:54:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 23:54:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433892420.31722.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2073404461.37021.1433891704653.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433892420.31722.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <957063845.43612.1433894080140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Do you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or are you saying that just as is it will flatten easily?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alan, I think it will flatten under water right away because it is not round and has little strength to keep it round. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM Hi Alec,that one is also showing 40psi.This is a Sean type problem.I guess it's a bit like snapping a match stick. Anyone can do it, but try breaking it bycrushing it from end to end. In this case you can squeeze the tube & bend it but try?crushing it cross sectionally with even pressure all around.A solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose with a hose crimpso that a point of weakness is created for the water pressure to continue crushing thetube from there along it's length.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? Wow. If there is no mistake that is really counter intuitive, because the hose feels super pliable in your fingers - almost like those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know what I mean. The size I'm using is half the wall thickness of what you calculated with, if that makes a difference. It's 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" thickness. Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks.The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure.As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst pressure.I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal and thenexternal pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal in both cases.This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize significantly.The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing.Cheers Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! ? density differences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 20:13:22 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 17:13:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <957063845.43612.1433894080140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433895202.89933.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, My gut feeling is the hose will flatten quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 PM Do you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or are you saying that just as is it will flatten easily?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alan, I think it will flatten under water right away because it is not round and has little strength to keep it round. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM Hi Alec,that one is also showing 40psi.This is a Sean type problem.I guess it's a bit like snapping a match stick. Anyone can do it, but try breaking it bycrushing it from end to end. In this case you can squeeze the tube & bend it but try?crushing it cross sectionally with even pressure all around.A solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose with a hose crimpso that a point of weakness is created for the water pressure to continue crushing thetube from there along it's length.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? Wow. If there is no mistake that is really counter intuitive, because the hose feels super pliable in your fingers - almost like those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know what I mean. The size I'm using is half the wall thickness of what you calculated with, if that makes a difference. It's 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" thickness. Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I had a look at the specs on that link. Thanks.The 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for 40psi internal pressure.As this is for fuel there could be a safety margin of 4x, so 160 psi burst pressure.I ran a couple of plastics I have in my pressure program through internal and thenexternal pressure, & the maximum external pressure was 2/3rds the internal in both cases.This could mean that it would take 106 psi before the hose would equalize significantly.The diameter would maybe shrink a bit before collapsing.Cheers Alan ? ? ? ? From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? The stuff I'm using is really flexible, and has a wall thickness of only 1/16". I'm having trouble imagining that the seal could offer less resistance than this, it's very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone (Sean) have the material specifications in theirpressure programs for the soft pvc that we would be using inour flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had was nylon, & that had a crush depth of 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & 2mm wall thickness.I was thinking of using oil filled light housings with the wiringrunning through flexible hose as compensation, but are having second thoughts.Alan ? ? ? ? From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 6:11 AM ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ? ? I have always been a fan of oil compensation at higher than ambient pressure, for a variety of reasons. The only real downside is the environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the surrounding water in the event of a leak, but that impact can be mitigated with oil selection. Positive pressure allows you to compensate for volumetric changes in your compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well as for thermal expansion of the oil, and if you have any leakage at all, you leak oil out, rather than water in, which can be an expensive lesson. Additionally, if you provide the bias with something like a spring loaded cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can instrument its displacement for accurate monitoring of demanded compensation volume, and potentially detect leaks well in advance of when they actually become a problem.? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage of not compensating for boundary-layer viscosity effects on rotating shafts,! ? density differences (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally accelerated fluid) and other small but cumulative effects that can contribute to water ingress.? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 20:45:37 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 20:45:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433895202.89933.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1433895202.89933.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F795E8F-351A-4D50-8EF9-1CDA151BCB33@gmail.com> The hose is wound around the motor, so there are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were laid out straight, you would find the high length to diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to collapse via the general instability failure mode. There are several types of PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is really soft and pliable. Problem is, I still have no satisfactory explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a good alternative theory. > On Jun 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 PM > > Do > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > are you saying that just as is it will flatten > easily?Alan > > From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > Alan, > I think > it will flatten under water right away because it is not > round and has little strength to keep it round. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM > > Hi > > Alec,that one > is also showing 40psi.This is > a > Sean type problem.I guess > it's a bit like snapping a match stick. > Anyone can do > it, but try breaking it > bycrushing > it from end to end. In this case > you can squeeze the tube > & bend it but > try crushing > it cross sectionally with > even pressure all > around.A > > solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose > with a hose crimpso that a > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to > continue crushing thetube from > there along it's length.Alan > > From: Alec Smyth > via > Personal_Submersibles > > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM > > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > Snoopy at Seneca > > > Wow. If > there is no mistake that is really > counter intuitive, > because the hose feels > super pliable in your fingers - > almost like > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know > what I mean. The size I'm using is half > the wall > thickness of what you calculated > with, if that makes a > difference. It's > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X > 1/16" > thickness. > Alec > On Tue, > Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > Alec,I had a > look at the > specs on that link. Thanks.The > 3/8" ID > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for > 40psi internal pressure.As this > is for fuel there could be a safety margin of > 4x, so 160 psi > burst pressure.I ran a > couple of plastics I have in my pressure > program through > internal and > thenexternal > pressure, & the maximum > external pressure was 2/3rds the > internal > in both cases.This > could mean that it would > take 106 psi before the hose would > equalize > significantly.The > diameter would maybe > shrink a bit before > collapsing.Cheers > Alan > > > > From: Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal > Submersibles > General Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, June > 10, 2015 10:11 AM > Subject: > Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca > > The stuff > I'm using is really flexible, and has a > wall thickness > of only 1/16". I'm > having trouble imagining that > the seal > could offer less resistance than this, it's > very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. > Best, > Alec > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James > > via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Does anyone (Sean) > have the > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > soft pvc that we > would be using inour > flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had > was nylon, & that had > a crush depth of > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & > 2mm wall thickness.I was > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the > wiringrunning through > > flexible hose as compensation, but are having second > thoughts.Alan > > From: Sean T. > Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal > Submersibles > General Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, June > 10, 2015 6:11 AM > Subject: > Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca > > I have > always > been a fan of oil compensation at > higher than ambient > pressure, for a variety > of reasons. The only real downside > is the > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the > surrounding water in the event of a leak, but > that impact > can be mitigated with oil > selection. Positive pressure > allows you to > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well > as > for thermal expansion of the oil, and if > you have any > leakage at all, you leak oil > out, rather than water in, > which can be an > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > provide the bias with something like a spring loaded > cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can > instrument its > displacement for accurate > monitoring of demanded > compensation volume, > and potentially detect leaks well in > > advance of when they actually become a problem. > Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > of not > compensating for boundary-layer > viscosity effects on > rotating shafts,! > density > differences > (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally > accelerated fluid) and other small but > cumulative effects > that can contribute to > water ingress. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 21:37:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 01:37:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <3F795E8F-351A-4D50-8EF9-1CDA151BCB33@gmail.com> References: <1433895202.89933.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3F795E8F-351A-4D50-8EF9-1CDA151BCB33@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,once you get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are usingthe external pressure rating doesn't change.I think the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would be basing?the 40 psi maximum pressure on an unlimited length of tube.Another factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it lessflexible.Alan From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The hose is wound around the motor, so there are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were laid out straight, you would find the high length to diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to collapse via the general instability failure mode. There are several types of PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is really soft and pliable. Problem is, I still have no satisfactory explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a good alternative theory. > On Jun 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 PM > > Do > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > are you saying that just as is it will flatten > easily?Alan > >? From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > Alan, > I think > it will flatten under water right away because it is not > round and has little strength to keep it round. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" >? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM > >? Hi > > Alec,that one >? is also showing 40psi.This is > a >? Sean type problem.I guess >? it's a bit like snapping a match stick. > Anyone can do >? it, but try breaking it > bycrushing >? it from end to end. In this case > you can squeeze the tube >? & bend it but > try crushing >? it cross sectionally with > even pressure all >? around.A > > solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose >? with a hose crimpso that a > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to >? continue crushing thetube from >? there along it's length.Alan >? ? ? >? ? From: Alec Smyth > via >? Personal_Submersibles > > > >? To: Personal >? Submersibles General Discussion >? > > >? Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM >? > Subject: Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > Snoopy at Seneca >? ? > > Wow. If >? there is no mistake that is really > counter intuitive, >? because the hose feels > super pliable in your fingers - >? almost like > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know >? what I mean. The size I'm using is half > the wall >? thickness of what you calculated > with, if that makes a >? difference. It's > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X >? 1/16" > thickness. >? Alec >? On Tue, >? Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles >? >? wrote: > > >? Alec,I had a >? look at the > specs on that link. Thanks.The >? 3/8" ID > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for >? 40psi internal pressure.As this >? is for fuel there could be a safety margin of > 4x, so 160 psi >? burst pressure.I ran a >? couple of plastics I have in my pressure > program through >? internal and > thenexternal >? pressure, & the maximum > external pressure was 2/3rds the >? internal > in both cases.This >? could mean that it would > take 106 psi before the hose would >? equalize > significantly.The >? diameter would maybe > shrink a bit before >? collapsing.Cheers >? Alan > >? ? >? >? ? From: Alec Smyth via >? Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal >? Submersibles > General Discussion > >? Sent: Wednesday, June >? 10, 2015 10:11 AM >? Subject: > Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca >? ? >? The stuff >? I'm using is really flexible, and has a > wall thickness >? of only 1/16". I'm > having trouble imagining that >? the seal > could offer less resistance than this, it's >? very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. >? Best, >? Alec > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James > > via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > > >? Does anyone (Sean) >? have the > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > soft pvc that we >? would be using inour >? flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had > was nylon, & that had >? a crush depth of > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & >? 2mm wall thickness.I was > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the >? wiringrunning through > > flexible hose as compensation, but are having second >? thoughts.Alan >? ? ? ? >? From: Sean T. >? Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal >? Submersibles > General Discussion > >? Sent: Wednesday, June >? 10, 2015 6:11 AM >? Subject: > Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca >? ? >? I have > always >? been a fan of oil compensation at > higher than ambient >? pressure, for a variety > of reasons. The only real downside >? is the > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the >? surrounding water in the event of a leak, but > that impact >? can be mitigated with oil > selection. Positive pressure >? allows you to > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well > as >? for thermal expansion of the oil, and if > you have any >? leakage at all, you leak oil > out, rather than water in, >? which can be an > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > provide the bias with something like a spring loaded >? cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can > instrument its >? displacement for accurate > monitoring of demanded >? compensation volume, > and potentially detect leaks well in > > advance of when they actually become a problem. >? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > of not >? compensating for boundary-layer > viscosity effects on >? rotating shafts,! >? ? density >? differences > (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally >? accelerated fluid) and other small but > cumulative effects >? that can contribute to > water ingress.? > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? ? > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? ? > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >? ? > >? -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 21:59:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 18:59:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM Alec,once you get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are usingthe external pressure rating doesn't change.I think the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would be basing?the 40 psi maximum pressure on an unlimited length of tube.Another factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it lessflexible.Alan From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca The hose is wound around the motor, so there are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were laid out straight, you would find the high length to diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to collapse via the general instability failure mode. There are several types of PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is really soft and pliable. Problem is, I still have no satisfactory explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a good alternative theory. > On Jun 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 PM > > Do > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > are you saying that just as is it will flatten > easily?Alan > >? From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > Alan, > I think > it will flatten under water right away because it is not > round and has little strength to keep it round. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >? To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" >? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 PM > >? Hi > > Alec,that one >? is also showing 40psi.This is > a >? Sean type problem.I guess >? it's a bit like snapping a match stick. > Anyone can do >? it, but try breaking it > bycrushing >? it from end to end. In this case > you can squeeze the tube >? & bend it but > try crushing >? it cross sectionally with > even pressure all >? around.A > > solution may be to just squeeze up a section of the hose >? with a hose crimpso that a > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to >? continue crushing thetube from >? there along it's length.Alan >? ? ? >? ? From: Alec Smyth > via >? Personal_Submersibles > > > >? To: Personal >? Submersibles General Discussion >? > > >? Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM >? > Subject: Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > Snoopy at Seneca >? ? > > Wow. If >? there is no mistake that is really > counter intuitive, >? because the hose feels > super pliable in your fingers - >? almost like > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you know >? what I mean. The size I'm using is half > the wall >? thickness of what you calculated > with, if that makes a >? difference. It's > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X >? 1/16" > thickness. >? Alec >? On Tue, >? Jun 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles >? >? wrote: > > >? Alec,I had a >? look at the > specs on that link. Thanks.The >? 3/8" ID > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is rated for >? 40psi internal pressure.As this >? is for fuel there could be a safety margin of > 4x, so 160 psi >? burst pressure.I ran a >? couple of plastics I have in my pressure > program through >? internal and > thenexternal >? pressure, & the maximum > external pressure was 2/3rds the >? internal > in both cases.This >? could mean that it would > take 106 psi before the hose would >? equalize > significantly.The >? diameter would maybe > shrink a bit before >? collapsing.Cheers >? Alan > >? ? >? >? ? From: Alec Smyth via >? Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal >? Submersibles > General Discussion > >? Sent: Wednesday, June >? 10, 2015 10:11 AM >? Subject: > Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca >? ? >? The stuff >? I'm using is really flexible, and has a > wall thickness >? of only 1/16". I'm > having trouble imagining that >? the seal > could offer less resistance than this, it's >? very soft. See McMaster item #5552K25. >? Best, >? Alec > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan James > > via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: > > >? Does anyone (Sean) >? have the > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > soft pvc that we >? would be using inour >? flexible compensation hoses?The nearest I had > was nylon, & that had >? a crush depth of > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long tube, 10mm diameter & >? 2mm wall thickness.I was > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the >? wiringrunning through > > flexible hose as compensation, but are having second >? thoughts.Alan >? ? ? ? >? From: Sean T. >? Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal >? Submersibles > General Discussion > >? Sent: Wednesday, June >? 10, 2015 6:11 AM >? Subject: > Re: >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at > Seneca >? ? >? I have > always >? been a fan of oil compensation at > higher than ambient >? pressure, for a variety > of reasons. The only real downside >? is the > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the >? surrounding water in the event of a leak, but > that impact >? can be mitigated with oil > selection. Positive pressure >? allows you to > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > compensated volumes due to the exterior pressure, as well > as >? for thermal expansion of the oil, and if > you have any >? leakage at all, you leak oil > out, rather than water in, >? which can be an > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > provide the bias with something like a spring loaded >? cylinder or elastomeric bladder, you can > instrument its >? displacement for accurate > monitoring of demanded >? compensation volume, > and potentially detect leaks well in > > advance of when they actually become a problem. >? Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > of not >? compensating for boundary-layer > viscosity effects on >? rotating shafts,! >? ? density >? differences > (gravity induced exchange and/or centripetally >? accelerated fluid) and other small but > cumulative effects >? that can contribute to > water ingress.? > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? ? > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >? ? > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >? ? > >? -----Inline Attachment > Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 22:12:06 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 19:12:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: Hey that grease comment jolted my "little gray cells"! How about filling the motor with a thixotropic and rorotropic grease (doesn't liquify from temperature and conducts heat)? I know of an outfit that makes such an animal. Just an idea. Also there are vegitable oil based oils and greases that are biodegradable and will keep you out of trouble with the Coasties, EPA, and local government agencies. So long as you have the MSD sheet and labeled container with you. Keith T hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Alec, >There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( >One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. >I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. >Hank-------------------------------------------- >On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM > > Alec,once you > get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are > usingthe > external pressure rating doesn't > change.I think > the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would > be basing?the 40 psi > maximum pressure on an unlimited length of > tube.Another > factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it > lessflexible.Alan > > From: Private via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > The hose is wound around the motor, so there > are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were > laid out straight, you would find the high length to > diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to > collapse via the general instability failure mode. > > There are several types of > PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got > might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is > really soft and pliable. > > Problem is, I still have no satisfactory > explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up > pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses > can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a > good alternative theory. > > > > > On Jun > 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alan, > > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten > quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it > round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: > Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 > PM > > > > Do > > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > > are you saying that just as is it will > flatten > > easily?Alan > > > >? From: hank pronk > via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM > >? Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > Alan, > > I think > > it will flatten under water right away > because it is not > > round and has little > strength to keep it round. > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > >? Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > >? To: "Personal Submersibles > General > > Discussion" > >? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 > PM > > > >? Hi > > > > Alec,that one > >? is also showing 40psi.This is > > a > >? Sean type > problem.I guess > >? it's a bit like > snapping a match stick. > > Anyone can > do > >? it, but try breaking it > > bycrushing > >? it from > end to end. In this case > > you can > squeeze the tube > >? & bend it but > > try crushing > >? it > cross sectionally with > > even pressure > all > >? around.A > > > > solution may be to just squeeze up a > section of the hose > >? with a hose > crimpso that a > > > > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to > >? continue crushing thetube from > >? there along it's length.Alan > >? ? ? > >? ? From: > Alec Smyth > > via > >? > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > > >? To: Personal > >? Submersibles General Discussion > >? > > > > > >? Sent: > > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM > >? > > Subject: Re: > >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > > Snoopy at Seneca > >? ? > > > > > Wow. If > >? there is no mistake that is really > > counter intuitive, > >? > because the hose feels > > super pliable in > your fingers - > >? almost like > > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you > know > >? what I mean. The size I'm > using is half > > the wall > >? thickness of what you calculated > > with, if that makes a > >? difference. It's > > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X > >? 1/16" > > > thickness. > >? Alec > >? On Tue, > >? Jun 9, > 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > > > Personal_Submersibles > >? > >? wrote: > > > > > >? Alec,I had a > >? look at the > > specs > on that link. Thanks.The > >? 3/8" > ID > > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is > rated for > >? 40psi internal pressure.As > this > >? is for fuel there could be a > safety margin of > > 4x, so 160 psi > >? burst pressure.I ran a > >? couple of plastics I have in my > pressure > > program through > >? internal and > > > thenexternal > >? pressure, & the > maximum > > external pressure was 2/3rds > the > >? internal > > in > both cases.This > >? could mean that it > would > > take 106 psi before the hose > would > >? equalize > > > significantly.The > >? diameter would > maybe > > shrink a bit before > >? collapsing.Cheers > >? > Alan > > > >? ? > >? > >? ? From: Alec > Smyth via > >? Personal_Submersibles > > >? To: Personal > >? > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > >? Sent: Wednesday, > June > >? 10, 2015 10:11 AM > >? Subject: > > Re: > >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > >? ? > > >? The stuff > >? > I'm using is really flexible, and has a > > wall thickness > >? of > only 1/16". I'm > > having trouble > imagining that > >? the seal > > could offer less resistance than this, > it's > >? very soft. See McMaster item > #5552K25. > >? Best, > >? Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan > James > > > > via > Personal_Submersibles > >? wrote: > > > > > >? Does anyone > (Sean) > >? have the > > > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > > soft pvc that we > >? > would be using inour > >? flexible > compensation hoses?The nearest I had > > > was nylon, & that had > >? a crush > depth of > > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long > tube, 10mm diameter & > >? 2mm wall > thickness.I was > > > > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the > >? wiringrunning through > > > > flexible hose as > compensation, but are having second > >? > thoughts.Alan > >? ? ? ? > >? From: Sean T. > >? > Stevenson via > > Personal_Submersibles > > >? To: Personal > >? > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > >? Sent: Wednesday, > June > >? 10, 2015 6:11 AM > >? Subject: > > Re: > >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > >? ? > > >? I have > > > always > >? been a fan of oil compensation > at > > higher than ambient > >? pressure, for a variety > > of reasons. The only real downside > >? is the > > > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the > >? surrounding water in the event of a > leak, but > > that impact > >? can be mitigated with oil > > selection. Positive pressure > >? allows you to > > > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > > > compensated volumes > due to the exterior pressure, as well > > > as > >? for thermal expansion of the oil, > and if > > you have any > >? leakage at all, you leak oil > > out, rather than water in, > >? which can be an > > > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > > > > provide the bias with something like a > spring loaded > >? cylinder or elastomeric > bladder, you can > > instrument its > >? displacement for accurate > > monitoring of demanded > >? compensation volume, > > and potentially detect leaks well in > > > > advance of when they > actually become a problem. > >? > Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > > of not > >? compensating > for boundary-layer > > viscosity effects > on > >? rotating shafts,! > >? ? density > >? > differences > > (gravity induced exchange > and/or centripetally > >? accelerated > fluid) and other small but > > cumulative > effects > >? that can contribute to > > water ingress.? > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >? ? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >? > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >? ? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >? > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >? ? > > > >? -----Inline Attachment > > Follows----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 22:38:09 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 22:38:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see > motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal > environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water > is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't > matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil > in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of > oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. > It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside > seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of > coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( > One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the > void with grease. > I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am > confident it will solve my leak. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM > > Alec,once you > get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are > usingthe > external pressure rating doesn't > change.I think > the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would > be basing the 40 psi > maximum pressure on an unlimited length of > tube.Another > factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it > lessflexible.Alan > > From: Private via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > The hose is wound around the motor, so there > are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were > laid out straight, you would find the high length to > diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to > collapse via the general instability failure mode. > > There are several types of > PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got > might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is > really soft and pliable. > > Problem is, I still have no satisfactory > explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up > pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses > can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a > good alternative theory. > > > > > On Jun > 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alan, > > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten > quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it > round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: > Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 > PM > > > > Do > > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > > are you saying that just as is it will > flatten > > easily?Alan > > > > From: hank pronk > via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > Alan, > > I think > > it will flatten under water right away > because it is not > > round and has little > strength to keep it round. > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles > General > > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 > PM > > > > Hi > > > > Alec,that one > > is also showing 40psi.This is > > a > > Sean type > problem.I guess > > it's a bit like > snapping a match stick. > > Anyone can > do > > it, but try breaking it > > bycrushing > > it from > end to end. In this case > > you can > squeeze the tube > > & bend it but > > try crushing > > it > cross sectionally with > > even pressure > all > > around.A > > > > solution may be to just squeeze up a > section of the hose > > with a hose > crimpso that a > > > > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to > > continue crushing thetube from > > there along it's length.Alan > > > > From: > Alec Smyth > > via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > > Sent: > > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > > Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > > Wow. If > > there is no mistake that is really > > counter intuitive, > > > because the hose feels > > super pliable in > your fingers - > > almost like > > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you > know > > what I mean. The size I'm > using is half > > the wall > > thickness of what you calculated > > with, if that makes a > > difference. It's > > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X > > 1/16" > > > thickness. > > Alec > > On Tue, > > Jun 9, > 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Alec,I had a > > look at the > > specs > on that link. Thanks.The > > 3/8" > ID > > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is > rated for > > 40psi internal pressure.As > this > > is for fuel there could be a > safety margin of > > 4x, so 160 psi > > burst pressure.I ran a > > couple of plastics I have in my > pressure > > program through > > internal and > > > thenexternal > > pressure, & the > maximum > > external pressure was 2/3rds > the > > internal > > in > both cases.This > > could mean that it > would > > take 106 psi before the hose > would > > equalize > > > significantly.The > > diameter would > maybe > > shrink a bit before > > collapsing.Cheers > > > Alan > > > > > > > > From: Alec > Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 10:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > The stuff > > > I'm using is really flexible, and has a > > wall thickness > > of > only 1/16". I'm > > having trouble > imagining that > > the seal > > could offer less resistance than this, > it's > > very soft. See McMaster item > #5552K25. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan > James > > > > via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone > (Sean) > > have the > > > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > > soft pvc that we > > > would be using inour > > flexible > compensation hoses?The nearest I had > > > was nylon, & that had > > a crush > depth of > > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long > tube, 10mm diameter & > > 2mm wall > thickness.I was > > > > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the > > wiringrunning through > > > > flexible hose as > compensation, but are having second > > > thoughts.Alan > > > > From: Sean T. > > > Stevenson via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 6:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > I have > > > always > > been a fan of oil compensation > at > > higher than ambient > > pressure, for a variety > > of reasons. The only real downside > > is the > > > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the > > surrounding water in the event of a > leak, but > > that impact > > can be mitigated with oil > > selection. Positive pressure > > allows you to > > > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > > > compensated volumes > due to the exterior pressure, as well > > > as > > for thermal expansion of the oil, > and if > > you have any > > leakage at all, you leak oil > > out, rather than water in, > > which can be an > > > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > > > > provide the bias with something like a > spring loaded > > cylinder or elastomeric > bladder, you can > > instrument its > > displacement for accurate > > monitoring of demanded > > compensation volume, > > and potentially detect leaks well in > > > > advance of when they > actually become a problem. > > > Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > > of not > > compensating > for boundary-layer > > viscosity effects > on > > rotating shafts,! > > density > > > differences > > (gravity induced exchange > and/or centripetally > > accelerated > fluid) and other small but > > cumulative > effects > > that can contribute to > > water ingress. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > > Follows----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 23:24:39 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 03:24:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec,>>>?if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story.? ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then contract & suck in water.I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can look at the heat expansioncharacteristics of the oil you are using to get a?worst case scenario of volume change.AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you can dial in a small amount ofoverpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for expansion.After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore hardness (A65) & dimensions to theplastic tube you are using.It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 psi, & with safety factorsincluded it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi.I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate lights :)The verdicts not out but I am very wary now.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, There really is no other explanation than air in the motor.? I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil.? The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth.? It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory.? My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space.? It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM ?Alec,once you ?get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are ?usingthe ?external pressure rating doesn't ?change.I think ?the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would ?be basing?the 40 psi ?maximum pressure on an unlimited length of ?tube.Another ?factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it ?lessflexible.Alan ? ? From: Private via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: Personal ?Submersibles General Discussion ? ?Sent: ?Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM ? Subject: Re: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?The hose is wound around the motor, so there ?are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were ?laid out straight, you would find the high length to ?diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to ?collapse via the general instability failure mode. ?There are several types of ?PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got ?might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is ?really soft and pliable. ?Problem is, I still have no satisfactory ?explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up ?pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses ?can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a ?good alternative theory. ?> On Jun ?9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> Alan, ?> My gut feeling is the hose will flatten ?quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it ?round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. ?> Hank ?> ?-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> To: "Personal Submersibles General ?Discussion" ?> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 ?PM ?> ?> Do ?> you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or ?> are you saying that just as is it will ?flatten ?> easily?Alan ?> ?>?? From: hank pronk ?via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> To: Personal ?> Submersibles General Discussion ?> ?> ?> Sent: ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> ?> ?> Alan, ?> I think ?> it will flatten under water right away ?because it is not ?> round and has little ?strength to keep it round. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?>? To: "Personal Submersibles ?General ?> Discussion" ?>? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 ?PM ?> ?>? Hi ?> ?> Alec,that one ?>? is also showing 40psi.This is ?> a ?>? Sean type ?problem.I guess ?>? it's a bit like ?snapping a match stick. ?> Anyone can ?do ?>? it, but try breaking it ?> bycrushing ?>? it from ?end to end. In this case ?> you can ?squeeze the tube ?>? & bend it but ?> try crushing ?>? it ?cross sectionally with ?> even pressure ?all ?>? around.A ?> ?> solution may be to just squeeze up a ?section of the hose ?>? with a hose ?crimpso that a ?> ?> ?point of weakness is created for the water pressure to ?>? continue crushing thetube from ?>? there along it's length.Alan ?>? ? ? ?>? ? From: ?Alec Smyth ?> via ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? To: Personal ?>? Submersibles General Discussion ?>? ?> ?> ?>? Sent: ?> ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ?>? ?> Subject: Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: ?> Snoopy at Seneca ?>? ? ?> ?> Wow. If ?>? there is no mistake that is really ?> counter intuitive, ?>? ?because the hose feels ?> super pliable in ?your fingers - ?>? almost like ?> those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you ?know ?>? what I mean. The size I'm ?using is half ?> the wall ?>? thickness of what you calculated ?> with, if that makes a ?>? difference. It's ?> 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X ?>? 1/16" ?> ?thickness. ?>? Alec ?>? On Tue, ?>? Jun 9, ?2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via ?> ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Alec,I had a ?>? look at the ?> specs ?on that link. Thanks.The ?>? 3/8" ?ID ?> x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is ?rated for ?>? 40psi internal pressure.As ?this ?>? is for fuel there could be a ?safety margin of ?> 4x, so 160 psi ?>? burst pressure.I ran a ?>? couple of plastics I have in my ?pressure ?> program through ?>? internal and ?> ?thenexternal ?>? pressure, & the ?maximum ?> external pressure was 2/3rds ?the ?>? internal ?> in ?both cases.This ?>? could mean that it ?would ?> take 106 psi before the hose ?would ?>? equalize ?> ?significantly.The ?>? diameter would ?maybe ?> shrink a bit before ?>? collapsing.Cheers ?>? ?Alan ?> ?>? ? ?>? ?>? ? From: Alec ?Smyth via ?>? Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 10:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? The stuff ?>? ?I'm using is really flexible, and has a ?> wall thickness ?>? of ?only 1/16". I'm ?> having trouble ?imagining that ?>? the seal ?> could offer less resistance than this, ?it's ?>? very soft. See McMaster item ?#5552K25. ?>? Best, ?>? Alec ?> ?> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan ?James ?> ?> via ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Does anyone ?(Sean) ?>? have the ?> ?material specifications in theirpressure programs for the ?> soft pvc that we ?>? ?would be using inour ?>? flexible ?compensation hoses?The nearest I had ?> ?was nylon, & that had ?>? a crush ?depth of ?> 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long ?tube, 10mm diameter & ?>? 2mm wall ?thickness.I was ?> ?> ?thinking of using oil filled light housings with the ?>? wiringrunning through ?> ?> flexible hose as ?compensation, but are having second ?>? ?thoughts.Alan ?>? ? ? ? ?>? From: Sean T. ?>? ?Stevenson via ?> Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 6:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? I have ?> ?always ?>? been a fan of oil compensation ?at ?> higher than ambient ?>? pressure, for a variety ?> of reasons. The only real downside ?>? is the ?> ?environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the ?>? surrounding water in the event of a ?leak, but ?> that impact ?>? can be mitigated with oil ?> selection. Positive pressure ?>? allows you to ?> ?compensate for volumetric changes in your ?> ?> compensated volumes ?due to the exterior pressure, as well ?> ?as ?>? for thermal expansion of the oil, ?and if ?> you have any ?>? leakage at all, you leak oil ?> out, rather than water in, ?>? which can be an ?> ?expensive lesson. Additionally, if you ?> ?> provide the bias with something like a ?spring loaded ?>? cylinder or elastomeric ?bladder, you can ?> instrument its ?>? displacement for accurate ?> monitoring of demanded ?>? compensation volume, ?> and potentially detect leaks well in ?> ?> advance of when they ?actually become a problem. ?>? ?Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage ?> of not ?>? compensating ?for boundary-layer ?> viscosity effects ?on ?>? rotating shafts,! ?>? ? density ?>? ?differences ?> (gravity induced exchange ?and/or centripetally ?>? accelerated ?fluid) and other small but ?> cumulative ?effects ?>? that can contribute to ?> water ingress.? ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?>? -----Inline Attachment ?> Follows----- ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> -----Inline ?Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 9 23:03:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 20:03:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Message-ID: <7on6ukyd5rnxp40ckk6qqimu.1433905377078@email.android.com> And I forgot to add, that grease doesn't absorb water. Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hey that grease comment jolted my "little gray cells"! How about filling the motor with a thixotropic and rorotropic grease (doesn't liquify from temperature and conducts heat)? I know of an outfit that makes such an animal. > >Just an idea. Also there are vegitable oil based oils and greases that are biodegradable and will keep you out of trouble with the Coasties, EPA, and local government agencies. So long as you have the MSD sheet and labeled container with you. > >Keith T > >hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> >>Alec, >>There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( >>One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. >>I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. >>Hank-------------------------------------------- >>On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM >> >> Alec,once you >> get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are >> usingthe >> external pressure rating doesn't >> change.I think >> the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would >> be basing?the 40 psi >> maximum pressure on an unlimited length of >> tube.Another >> factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it >> lessflexible.Alan >> >> From: Private via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> To: Personal >> Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> Sent: >> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> >> The hose is wound around the motor, so there >> are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were >> laid out straight, you would find the high length to >> diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to >> collapse via the general instability failure mode. >> >> There are several types of >> PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got >> might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is >> really soft and pliable. >> >> Problem is, I still have no satisfactory >> explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up >> pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses >> can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a >> good alternative theory. >> >> >> >> > On Jun >> 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> > >> > Alan, >> > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten >> quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it >> round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. >> > Hank >> > >> -------------------------------------------- >> > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > Subject: >> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> > To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >> > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 >> PM >> > >> > Do >> > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or >> > are you saying that just as is it will >> flatten >> > easily?Alan >> > >> >? From: hank pronk >> via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> > >> > >> > To: Personal >> > Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> >> > >> > Sent: >> > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM >> >? Subject: Re: >> > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> > >> > >> > Alan, >> > I think >> > it will flatten under water right away >> because it is not >> > round and has little >> strength to keep it round. >> > >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> >? Subject: Re: >> > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> >? To: "Personal Submersibles >> General >> > Discussion" >> >? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 >> PM >> > >> >? Hi >> > >> > Alec,that one >> >? is also showing 40psi.This is >> > a >> >? Sean type >> problem.I guess >> >? it's a bit like >> snapping a match stick. >> > Anyone can >> do >> >? it, but try breaking it >> > bycrushing >> >? it from >> end to end. In this case >> > you can >> squeeze the tube >> >? & bend it but >> > try crushing >> >? it >> cross sectionally with >> > even pressure >> all >> >? around.A >> > >> > solution may be to just squeeze up a >> section of the hose >> >? with a hose >> crimpso that a >> > >> > >> point of weakness is created for the water pressure to >> >? continue crushing thetube from >> >? there along it's length.Alan >> >? ? ? >> >? ? From: >> Alec Smyth >> > via >> >? >> Personal_Submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >? To: Personal >> >? Submersibles General Discussion >> >? >> > >> > >> >? Sent: >> > >> > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM >> >? >> > Subject: Re: >> >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: >> > Snoopy at Seneca >> >? ? >> >> > >> > Wow. If >> >? there is no mistake that is really >> > counter intuitive, >> >? >> because the hose feels >> > super pliable in >> your fingers - >> >? almost like >> > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you >> know >> >? what I mean. The size I'm >> using is half >> > the wall >> >? thickness of what you calculated >> > with, if that makes a >> >? difference. It's >> > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X >> >? 1/16" >> > >> thickness. >> >? Alec >> >? On Tue, >> >? Jun 9, >> 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via >> > >> Personal_Submersibles >> >? >> >? wrote: >> > >> > >> >? Alec,I had a >> >? look at the >> > specs >> on that link. Thanks.The >> >? 3/8" >> ID >> > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is >> rated for >> >? 40psi internal pressure.As >> this >> >? is for fuel there could be a >> safety margin of >> > 4x, so 160 psi >> >? burst pressure.I ran a >> >? couple of plastics I have in my >> pressure >> > program through >> >? internal and >> > >> thenexternal >> >? pressure, & the >> maximum >> > external pressure was 2/3rds >> the >> >? internal >> > in >> both cases.This >> >? could mean that it >> would >> > take 106 psi before the hose >> would >> >? equalize >> > >> significantly.The >> >? diameter would >> maybe >> > shrink a bit before >> >? collapsing.Cheers >> >? >> Alan >> > >> >? ? >> >? >> >? ? From: Alec >> Smyth via >> >? Personal_Submersibles >> >> >? To: Personal >> >? >> Submersibles >> > General Discussion >> > >> >? Sent: Wednesday, >> June >> >? 10, 2015 10:11 AM >> >? Subject: >> > Re: >> >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy >> at >> > Seneca >> >? ? >> >> >? The stuff >> >? >> I'm using is really flexible, and has a >> > wall thickness >> >? of >> only 1/16". I'm >> > having trouble >> imagining that >> >? the seal >> > could offer less resistance than this, >> it's >> >? very soft. See McMaster item >> #5552K25. >> >? Best, >> >? Alec >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan >> James >> > >> > via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >? wrote: >> > >> > >> >? Does anyone >> (Sean) >> >? have the >> > >> material specifications in theirpressure programs for the >> > soft pvc that we >> >? >> would be using inour >> >? flexible >> compensation hoses?The nearest I had >> > >> was nylon, & that had >> >? a crush >> depth of >> > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long >> tube, 10mm diameter & >> >? 2mm wall >> thickness.I was >> > >> > >> thinking of using oil filled light housings with the >> >? wiringrunning through >> > >> > flexible hose as >> compensation, but are having second >> >? >> thoughts.Alan >> >? ? ? ? >> >? From: Sean T. >> >? >> Stevenson via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> >> >? To: Personal >> >? >> Submersibles >> > General Discussion >> > >> >? Sent: Wednesday, >> June >> >? 10, 2015 6:11 AM >> >? Subject: >> > Re: >> >? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy >> at >> > Seneca >> >? ? >> >> >? I have >> > >> always >> >? been a fan of oil compensation >> at >> > higher than ambient >> >? pressure, for a variety >> > of reasons. The only real downside >> >? is the >> > >> environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the >> >? surrounding water in the event of a >> leak, but >> > that impact >> >? can be mitigated with oil >> > selection. Positive pressure >> >? allows you to >> > >> compensate for volumetric changes in your >> > >> > compensated volumes >> due to the exterior pressure, as well >> > >> as >> >? for thermal expansion of the oil, >> and if >> > you have any >> >? leakage at all, you leak oil >> > out, rather than water in, >> >? which can be an >> > >> expensive lesson. Additionally, if you >> > >> >> > provide the bias with something like a >> spring loaded >> >? cylinder or elastomeric >> bladder, you can >> > instrument its >> >? displacement for accurate >> > monitoring of demanded >> >? compensation volume, >> > and potentially detect leaks well in >> > >> > advance of when they >> actually become a problem. >> >? >> Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage >> > of not >> >? compensating >> for boundary-layer >> > viscosity effects >> on >> >? rotating shafts,! >> >? ? density >> >? >> differences >> > (gravity induced exchange >> and/or centripetally >> >? accelerated >> fluid) and other small but >> > cumulative >> effects >> >? that can contribute to >> > water ingress.? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >? ? >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >? >> Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list >> > >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >? ? >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >? >> Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list >> > >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >? ? >> > >> >? -----Inline Attachment >> > Follows----- >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Inline >> Attachment Follows----- >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 10 08:20:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 08:20:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could use for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the purpose of creating a small test chamber? On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > >>> if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of > the story. > ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then > contract & suck in water. > I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can > look at the heat expansion > characteristics of the oil you are using to get a worst case scenario of > volume change. > AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you > can dial in a small amount of > overpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for > expansion. > After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore > hardness (A65) & dimensions to the > plastic tube you are using. > It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 > psi, & with safety factors > included it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi. > I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate > lights :) > The verdicts not out but I am very wary now. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to > hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover > air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it > should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose > cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm > also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want > to bring back their youth a bit. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Alec, > There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see > motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal > environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water > is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't > matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil > in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of > oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. > It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside > seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of > coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( > One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the > void with grease. > I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am > confident it will solve my leak. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM > > Alec,once you > get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are > usingthe > external pressure rating doesn't > change.I think > the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would > be basing the 40 psi > maximum pressure on an unlimited length of > tube.Another > factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it > lessflexible.Alan > > From: Private via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > The hose is wound around the motor, so there > are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were > laid out straight, you would find the high length to > diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to > collapse via the general instability failure mode. > > There are several types of > PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got > might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is > really soft and pliable. > > Problem is, I still have no satisfactory > explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up > pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses > can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a > good alternative theory. > > > > > On Jun > 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alan, > > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten > quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it > round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: > Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 > PM > > > > Do > > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > > are you saying that just as is it will > flatten > > easily?Alan > > > > From: hank pronk > via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > Alan, > > I think > > it will flatten under water right away > because it is not > > round and has little > strength to keep it round. > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles > General > > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 > PM > > > > Hi > > > > Alec,that one > > is also showing 40psi.This is > > a > > Sean type > problem.I guess > > it's a bit like > snapping a match stick. > > Anyone can > do > > it, but try breaking it > > bycrushing > > it from > end to end. In this case > > you can > squeeze the tube > > & bend it but > > try crushing > > it > cross sectionally with > > even pressure > all > > around.A > > > > solution may be to just squeeze up a > section of the hose > > with a hose > crimpso that a > > > > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to > > continue crushing thetube from > > there along it's length.Alan > > > > From: > Alec Smyth > > via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > > Sent: > > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > > Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > > Wow. If > > there is no mistake that is really > > counter intuitive, > > > because the hose feels > > super pliable in > your fingers - > > almost like > > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you > know > > what I mean. The size I'm > using is half > > the wall > > thickness of what you calculated > > with, if that makes a > > difference. It's > > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X > > 1/16" > > > thickness. > > Alec > > On Tue, > > Jun 9, > 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Alec,I had a > > look at the > > specs > on that link. Thanks.The > > 3/8" > ID > > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is > rated for > > 40psi internal pressure.As > this > > is for fuel there could be a > safety margin of > > 4x, so 160 psi > > burst pressure.I ran a > > couple of plastics I have in my > pressure > > program through > > internal and > > > thenexternal > > pressure, & the > maximum > > external pressure was 2/3rds > the > > internal > > in > both cases.This > > could mean that it > would > > take 106 psi before the hose > would > > equalize > > > significantly.The > > diameter would > maybe > > shrink a bit before > > collapsing.Cheers > > > Alan > > > > > > > > From: Alec > Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 10:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > The stuff > > > I'm using is really flexible, and has a > > wall thickness > > of > only 1/16". I'm > > having trouble > imagining that > > the seal > > could offer less resistance than this, > it's > > very soft. See McMaster item > #5552K25. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan > James > > > > via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone > (Sean) > > have the > > > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > > soft pvc that we > > > would be using inour > > flexible > compensation hoses?The nearest I had > > > was nylon, & that had > > a crush > depth of > > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long > tube, 10mm diameter & > > 2mm wall > thickness.I was > > > > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the > > wiringrunning through > > > > flexible hose as > compensation, but are having second > > > thoughts.Alan > > > > From: Sean T. > > > Stevenson via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 6:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > I have > > > always > > been a fan of oil compensation > at > > higher than ambient > > pressure, for a variety > > of reasons. The only real downside > > is the > > > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the > > surrounding water in the event of a > leak, but > > that impact > > can be mitigated with oil > > selection. Positive pressure > > allows you to > > > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > > > compensated volumes > due to the exterior pressure, as well > > > as > > for thermal expansion of the oil, > and if > > you have any > > leakage at all, you leak oil > > out, rather than water in, > > which can be an > > > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > > > > provide the bias with something like a > spring loaded > > cylinder or elastomeric > bladder, you can > > instrument its > > displacement for accurate > > monitoring of demanded > > compensation volume, > > and potentially detect leaks well in > > > > advance of when they > actually become a problem. > > > Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > > of not > > compensating > for boundary-layer > > viscosity effects > on > > rotating shafts,! > > density > > > differences > > (gravity induced exchange > and/or centripetally > > accelerated > fluid) and other small but > > cumulative > effects > > that can contribute to > > water ingress. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > > Follows----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 10 08:26:02 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 05:26:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433939162.50762.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, An old hydraulic cylinder works well, you will need a pretty large bore though. big can mean cheap. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/10/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Wednesday, June 10, 2015, 8:20 AM What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could use for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the purpose of creating a small test chamber? On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,>>>?if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story.? ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then contract & suck in water.I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can look at the heat expansioncharacteristics of the oil you are using to get a?worst case scenario of volume change.AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you can dial in a small amount ofoverpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for expansion.After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore hardness (A65) & dimensions to theplastic tube you are using.It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 psi, & with safety factorsincluded it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi.I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate lights :)The verdicts not out but I am very wary now.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, There really is no other explanation than air in the motor.? I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil.? The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth.? It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory.? My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space.? It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM ?Alec,once you ?get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are ?usingthe ?external pressure rating doesn't ?change.I think ?the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would ?be basing?the 40 psi ?maximum pressure on an unlimited length of ?tube.Another ?factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it ?lessflexible.Alan ? ? From: Private via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: Personal ?Submersibles General Discussion ? ?Sent: ?Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM ? Subject: Re: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?The hose is wound around the motor, so there ?are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were ?laid out straight, you would find the high length to ?diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to ?collapse via the general instability failure mode. ?There are several types of ?PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got ?might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is ?really soft and pliable. ?Problem is, I still have no satisfactory ?explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up ?pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses ?can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a ?good alternative theory. ?> On Jun ?9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> Alan, ?> My gut feeling is the hose will flatten ?quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it ?round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. ?> Hank ?> ?-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> To: "Personal Submersibles General ?Discussion" ?> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 ?PM ?> ?> Do ?> you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or ?> are you saying that just as is it will ?flatten ?> easily?Alan ?> ?>?? From: hank pronk ?via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> To: Personal ?> Submersibles General Discussion ?> ?> ?> Sent: ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> ?> ?> Alan, ?> I think ?> it will flatten under water right away ?because it is not ?> round and has little ?strength to keep it round. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?>? To: "Personal Submersibles ?General ?> Discussion" ?>? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 ?PM ?> ?>? Hi ?> ?> Alec,that one ?>? is also showing 40psi.This is ?> a ?>? Sean type ?problem.I guess ?>? it's a bit like ?snapping a match stick. ?> Anyone can ?do ?>? it, but try breaking it ?> bycrushing ?>? it from ?end to end. In this case ?> you can ?squeeze the tube ?>? & bend it but ?> try crushing ?>? it ?cross sectionally with ?> even pressure ?all ?>? around.A ?> ?> solution may be to just squeeze up a ?section of the hose ?>? with a hose ?crimpso that a ?> ?> ?point of weakness is created for the water pressure to ?>? continue crushing thetube from ?>? there along it's length.Alan ?>? ? ? ?>? ? From: ?Alec Smyth ?> via ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? To: Personal ?>? Submersibles General Discussion ?>? ?> ?> ?>? Sent: ?> ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ?>? ?> Subject: Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: ?> Snoopy at Seneca ?>? ? ?> ?> Wow. If ?>? there is no mistake that is really ?> counter intuitive, ?>? ?because the hose feels ?> super pliable in ?your fingers - ?>? almost like ?> those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you ?know ?>? what I mean. The size I'm ?using is half ?> the wall ?>? thickness of what you calculated ?> with, if that makes a ?>? difference. It's ?> 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X ?>? 1/16" ?> ?thickness. ?>? Alec ?>? On Tue, ?>? Jun 9, ?2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via ?> ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Alec,I had a ?>? look at the ?> specs ?on that link. Thanks.The ?>? 3/8" ?ID ?> x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is ?rated for ?>? 40psi internal pressure.As ?this ?>? is for fuel there could be a ?safety margin of ?> 4x, so 160 psi ?>? burst pressure.I ran a ?>? couple of plastics I have in my ?pressure ?> program through ?>? internal and ?> ?thenexternal ?>? pressure, & the ?maximum ?> external pressure was 2/3rds ?the ?>? internal ?> in ?both cases.This ?>? could mean that it ?would ?> take 106 psi before the hose ?would ?>? equalize ?> ?significantly.The ?>? diameter would ?maybe ?> shrink a bit before ?>? collapsing.Cheers ?>? ?Alan ?> ?>? ? ?>? ?>? ? From: Alec ?Smyth via ?>? Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 10:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? The stuff ?>? ?I'm using is really flexible, and has a ?> wall thickness ?>? of ?only 1/16". I'm ?> having trouble ?imagining that ?>? the seal ?> could offer less resistance than this, ?it's ?>? very soft. See McMaster item ?#5552K25. ?>? Best, ?>? Alec ?> ?> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan ?James ?> ?> via ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Does anyone ?(Sean) ?>? have the ?> ?material specifications in theirpressure programs for the ?> soft pvc that we ?>? ?would be using inour ?>? flexible ?compensation hoses?The nearest I had ?> ?was nylon, & that had ?>? a crush ?depth of ?> 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long ?tube, 10mm diameter & ?>? 2mm wall ?thickness.I was ?> ?> ?thinking of using oil filled light housings with the ?>? wiringrunning through ?> ?> flexible hose as ?compensation, but are having second ?>? ?thoughts.Alan ?>? ? ? ? ?>? From: Sean T. ?>? ?Stevenson via ?> Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 6:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? I have ?> ?always ?>? been a fan of oil compensation ?at ?> higher than ambient ?>? pressure, for a variety ?> of reasons. The only real downside ?>? is the ?> ?environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the ?>? surrounding water in the event of a ?leak, but ?> that impact ?>? can be mitigated with oil ?> selection. Positive pressure ?>? allows you to ?> ?compensate for volumetric changes in your ?> ?> compensated volumes ?due to the exterior pressure, as well ?> ?as ?>? for thermal expansion of the oil, ?and if ?> you have any ?>? leakage at all, you leak oil ?> out, rather than water in, ?>? which can be an ?> ?expensive lesson. Additionally, if you ?> ?> provide the bias with something like a ?spring loaded ?>? cylinder or elastomeric ?bladder, you can ?> instrument its ?>? displacement for accurate ?> monitoring of demanded ?>? compensation volume, ?> and potentially detect leaks well in ?> ?> advance of when they ?actually become a problem. ?>? ?Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage ?> of not ?>? compensating ?for boundary-layer ?> viscosity effects ?on ?>? rotating shafts,! ?>? ? density ?>? ?differences ?> (gravity induced exchange ?and/or centripetally ?>? accelerated ?fluid) and other small but ?> cumulative ?effects ?>? that can contribute to ?> water ingress.? ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?>? -----Inline Attachment ?> Follows----- ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> -----Inline ?Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 10 08:36:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 08:36:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum sphere Message-ID: See eBay item 310954415718. There are no specs posted, but just judging from the photos these look like they might make a very interesting sub indeed. Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 10 09:56:53 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 07:56:53 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38817208-7e5e-4ab3-9227-d93509d7b331@email.android.com> I just caught up with this discussion. I'll write something about tube collapse when I get home this evening. As for a test can, I have previously used SCUBA cylinders that had failed their inspections due to problems in the thread or spot corrosion which I subsequently cut off and then just add a lid, but in this case, why not pipe the housing back to the cab and just throw a pressure transducer or gauge on that tube? What you're really interested in is the delta-P inside and out, correct? Off the cuff, I doubt you'll see anything. Those flexible hoses you are all using are not magically stiffening under pressure. Likely it's an air problem, or lack of expansion volume. Sean On June 10, 2015 6:20:32 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could >use >for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the >ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the >purpose >of creating a small test chamber? > >On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Alec, >> >>> if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the >end of >> the story. >> ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, >then >> contract & suck in water. >> I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. >You can >> look at the heat expansion >> characteristics of the oil you are using to get a worst case scenario >of >> volume change. >> AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that >you >> can dial in a small amount of >> overpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for >> expansion. >> After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore >> hardness (A65) & dimensions to the >> plastic tube you are using. >> It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at >13.9 >> psi, & with safety factors >> included it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi. >> I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to >compensate >> lights :) >> The verdicts not out but I am very wary now. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> >> All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to >> hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the >leftover >> air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it >> should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in >the nose >> cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. >I'm >> also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I >want >> to bring back their youth a bit. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Alec, >> There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't >see >> motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal >> environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and >water >> is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It >wouldn't >> matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full >of oil >> in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just >full of >> oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air >space. >> It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the >inside >> seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails >of >> coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. >:-( >> One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack >the >> void with grease. >> I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and >am >> confident it will solve my leak. >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM >> >> Alec,once you >> get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are >> usingthe >> external pressure rating doesn't >> change.I think >> the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would >> be basing the 40 psi >> maximum pressure on an unlimited length of >> tube.Another >> factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it >> lessflexible.Alan >> >> From: Private via >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> To: Personal >> Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> Sent: >> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> >> The hose is wound around the motor, so there >> are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were >> laid out straight, you would find the high length to >> diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to >> collapse via the general instability failure mode. >> >> There are several types of >> PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got >> might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is >> really soft and pliable. >> >> Problem is, I still have no satisfactory >> explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up >> pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses >> can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a >> good alternative theory. >> >> >> >> > On Jun >> 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> > >> > Alan, >> > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten >> quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it >> round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. >> > Hank >> > >> -------------------------------------------- >> > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > Subject: >> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> > To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >> > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 >> PM >> > >> > Do >> > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or >> > are you saying that just as is it will >> flatten >> > easily?Alan >> > >> > From: hank pronk >> via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> > >> > >> > To: Personal >> > Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> >> > >> > Sent: >> > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM >> > Subject: Re: >> > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> > >> > >> > Alan, >> > I think >> > it will flatten under water right away >> because it is not >> > round and has little >> strength to keep it round. >> > >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Subject: Re: >> > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca >> > To: "Personal Submersibles >> General >> > Discussion" >> > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 >> PM >> > >> > Hi >> > >> > Alec,that one >> > is also showing 40psi.This is >> > a >> > Sean type >> problem.I guess >> > it's a bit like >> snapping a match stick. >> > Anyone can >> do >> > it, but try breaking it >> > bycrushing >> > it from >> end to end. In this case >> > you can >> squeeze the tube >> > & bend it but >> > try crushing >> > it >> cross sectionally with >> > even pressure >> all >> > around.A >> > >> > solution may be to just squeeze up a >> section of the hose >> > with a hose >> crimpso that a >> > >> > >> point of weakness is created for the water pressure to >> > continue crushing thetube from >> > there along it's length.Alan >> > >> > From: >> Alec Smyth >> > via >> > >> Personal_Submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > To: Personal >> > Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent: >> > >> > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM >> > >> > Subject: Re: >> > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: >> > Snoopy at Seneca >> > >> >> > >> > Wow. If >> > there is no mistake that is really >> > counter intuitive, >> > >> because the hose feels >> > super pliable in >> your fingers - >> > almost like >> > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you >> know >> > what I mean. The size I'm >> using is half >> > the wall >> > thickness of what you calculated >> > with, if that makes a >> > difference. It's >> > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X >> > 1/16" >> > >> thickness. >> > Alec >> > On Tue, >> > Jun 9, >> 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via >> > >> Personal_Submersibles >> > >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > Alec,I had a >> > look at the >> > specs >> on that link. Thanks.The >> > 3/8" >> ID >> > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is >> rated for >> > 40psi internal pressure.As >> this >> > is for fuel there could be a >> safety margin of >> > 4x, so 160 psi >> > burst pressure.I ran a >> > couple of plastics I have in my >> pressure >> > program through >> > internal and >> > >> thenexternal >> > pressure, & the >> maximum >> > external pressure was 2/3rds >> the >> > internal >> > in >> both cases.This >> > could mean that it >> would >> > take 106 psi before the hose >> would >> > equalize >> > >> significantly.The >> > diameter would >> maybe >> > shrink a bit before >> > collapsing.Cheers >> > >> Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Alec >> Smyth via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> >> > To: Personal >> > >> Submersibles >> > General Discussion >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, >> June >> > 10, 2015 10:11 AM >> > Subject: >> > Re: >> > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy >> at >> > Seneca >> > >> >> > The stuff >> > >> I'm using is really flexible, and has a >> > wall thickness >> > of >> only 1/16". I'm >> > having trouble >> imagining that >> > the seal >> > could offer less resistance than this, >> it's >> > very soft. See McMaster item >> #5552K25. >> > Best, >> > Alec >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan >> James >> > >> > via >> Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > Does anyone >> (Sean) >> > have the >> > >> material specifications in theirpressure programs for the >> > soft pvc that we >> > >> would be using inour >> > flexible >> compensation hoses?The nearest I had >> > >> was nylon, & that had >> > a crush >> depth of >> > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long >> tube, 10mm diameter & >> > 2mm wall >> thickness.I was >> > >> > >> thinking of using oil filled light housings with the >> > wiringrunning through >> > >> > flexible hose as >> compensation, but are having second >> > >> thoughts.Alan >> > >> > From: Sean T. >> > >> Stevenson via >> > Personal_Submersibles >> >> > To: Personal >> > >> Submersibles >> > General Discussion >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, >> June >> > 10, 2015 6:11 AM >> > Subject: >> > Re: >> > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy >> at >> > Seneca >> > >> >> > I have >> > >> always >> > been a fan of oil compensation >> at >> > higher than ambient >> > pressure, for a variety >> > of reasons. The only real downside >> > is the >> > >> environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the >> > surrounding water in the event of a >> leak, but >> > that impact >> > can be mitigated with oil >> > selection. Positive pressure >> > allows you to >> > >> compensate for volumetric changes in your >> > >> > compensated volumes >> due to the exterior pressure, as well >> > >> as >> > for thermal expansion of the oil, >> and if >> > you have any >> > leakage at all, you leak oil >> > out, rather than water in, >> > which can be an >> > >> expensive lesson. Additionally, if you >> > >> >> > provide the bias with something like a >> spring loaded >> > cylinder or elastomeric >> bladder, you can >> > instrument its >> > displacement for accurate >> > monitoring of demanded >> > compensation volume, >> > and potentially detect leaks well in >> > >> > advance of when they >> actually become a problem. >> > >> Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage >> > of not >> > compensating >> for boundary-layer >> > viscosity effects >> on >> > rotating shafts,! >> > density >> > >> differences >> > (gravity induced exchange >> and/or centripetally >> > accelerated >> fluid) and other small but >> > cumulative >> effects >> > that can contribute to >> > water ingress. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list >> > >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list >> > >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Inline Attachment >> > Follows----- >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Inline >> Attachment Follows----- >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 10 18:58:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 22:58:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <38817208-7e5e-4ab3-9227-d93509d7b331@email.android.com> References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <38817208-7e5e-4ab3-9227-d93509d7b331@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1735996225.742697.1433977112750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,of specific interest is the crush depth of this pvc tubinghttp://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/123/=xkgylbwith?1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" wall & shore A65 hardness.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I just caught up with this discussion. I'll write something about tube collapse when I get home this evening. As for a test can, I have previously used SCUBA cylinders that had failed their inspections due to problems in the thread or spot corrosion which I subsequently cut off and then just add a lid, but in this case, why not pipe the housing back to the cab and just throw a pressure transducer or gauge on that tube?? What you're really interested in is the delta-P inside and out, correct?? Off the cuff, I doubt you'll see anything. Those flexible hoses you are all using are not magically stiffening under pressure. Likely it's an air problem, or lack of expansion volume.Sean On June 10, 2015 6:20:32 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could use for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the purpose of creating a small test chamber? On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,>>>?if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story.? ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then contract & suck in water.I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can look at the heat expansioncharacteristics of the oil you are using to geta?worst case scenario of volume change.AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you can dial in a small amount ofoverpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for expansion.After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore hardness (A65) & dimensions to theplastic tube you are using.It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 psi, & with safety factorsincluded it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi.I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate lights :)The verdicts not out but I am very warynow.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, There really is no other explanation than air in the motor.? I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil.? The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth.? It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory.? My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space.? It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM ?Alec,once you ?get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are ?usingthe ?external pressure rating doesn't ?change.I think ?the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would ?be basing?the 40 psi ?maximum pressure on an unlimited length of ?tube.Another ?factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it ?lessflexible.Alan ? ? From: Private via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: Personal ?Submersibles General Discussion ? ?Sent: ?Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM ? Subject: Re: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?The hose is wound around the motor, so there ?are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were ?laid out straight, you would find the high length to ?diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to ?collapse via the general instability failure mode. ?There are several types of ?PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got ?might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is ?really soft and pliable. ?Problem is, I still have no satisfactory ?explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up ?pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses ?can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a ?good alternative theory. ?> On Jun ?9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> Alan, ?> My gut feeling is the hose will flatten ?quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it ?round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. ?> Hank ?> ?-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> To: "Personal Submersibles General ?Discussion" ?> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 ?PM ?> ?> Do ?> you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or ?> are you saying that just as is it will ?flatten ?> easily?Alan ?> ?>?? From: hank pronk ?via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> To: Personal ?> Submersibles General Discussion ?> ?> ?> Sent: ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> ?> ?> Alan, ?> I think ?> it will flatten under water right away ?because it is not ?> round and has little ?strength to keep it round. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?>? To: "Personal Submersibles ?General ?> Discussion" ?>? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 ?PM ?> ?>? Hi ?> ?> Alec,that one ?>? is also showing 40psi.This is ?> a ?>? Sean type ?problem.I guess ?>? it's a bit like ?snapping a match stick. ?> Anyone can ?do ?>? it, but try breaking it ?> bycrushing ?>? it from ?end to end. In this case ?> you can ?squeeze the tube ?>? & bend it but ?> try crushing ?>? it ?cross sectionally with ?> even pressure ?all ?>? around.A ?> ?> solution may be to just squeeze up a ?section of the hose ?>? with a hose ?crimpso that a ?> ?> ?point of weakness is created for the water pressure to ?>? continue crushing thetube from ?>? there along it's length.Alan ?>? ? ? ?>? ? From: ?Alec Smyth ?> via ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? To: Personal ?>? Submersibles General Discussion ?>? ?> ?> ?>? Sent: ?> ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ?>? ?> Subject: Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: ?> Snoopy at Seneca ?>? ? ?> ?> Wow. If ?>? there is no mistake that is really ?> counter intuitive, ?>? ?because the hose feels ?> super pliable in ?your fingers - ?>? almost like ?> those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you ?know ?>? what I mean. The size I'm ?using is half ?> the wall ?>? thickness of what you calculated ?> with, if that makes a ?>? difference. It's ?> 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X ?>? 1/16" ?> ?thickness. ?>? Alec ?>? On Tue, ?>? Jun 9, ?2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via ?> ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Alec,I had a ?>? look at the ?> specs ?on that link. Thanks.The ?>? 3/8" ?ID ?> x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is ?rated for ?>? 40psi internal pressure.As ?this ?>? is for fuel there could be a ?safety margin of ?> 4x, so 160 psi ?>? burst pressure.I ran a ?>? couple of plastics I have in my ?pressure ?> program through ?>? internal and ?> ?thenexternal ?>? pressure, & the ?maximum ?> external pressure was 2/3rds ?the ?>? internal ?> in ?both cases.This ?>? could mean that it ?would ?> take 106 psi before the hose ?would ?>? equalize ?> ?significantly.The ?>? diameter would ?maybe ?> shrink a bit before ?>? collapsing.Cheers ?>? ?Alan ?> ?>? ? ?>? ?>? ? From: Alec ?Smyth via ?>? Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 10:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? The stuff ?>? ?I'm using is really flexible, and has a ?> wall thickness ?>? of ?only 1/16". I'm ?> having trouble ?imagining that ?>? the seal ?> could offer less resistance than this, ?it's ?>? very soft. See McMaster item ?#5552K25. ?>? Best, ?>? Alec ?> ?> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan ?James ?> ?> via ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Does anyone ?(Sean) ?>? have the ?> ?material specifications in theirpressure programs for the ?> soft pvc that we ?>? ?would be using inour ?>? flexible ?compensation hoses?The nearest I had ?> ?was nylon, & that had ?>? a crush ?depth of ?> 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long ?tube, 10mm diameter & ?>? 2mm wall ?thickness.I was ?> ?> ?thinking of using oil filled light housings with the ?>? wiringrunning through ?> ?> flexible hose as ?compensation, but are having second ?>? ?thoughts.Alan ?>? ? ? ? ?>? From: Sean T. ?>? ?Stevenson via ?> Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 6:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? I have ?> ?always ?>? been a fan of oil compensation ?at ?> higher than ambient ?>? pressure, for a variety ?> of reasons. The only real downside ?>? is the ?> ?environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the ?>? surrounding water in the event of a ?leak, but ?> that impact ?>? can be mitigated with oil ?> selection. Positive pressure ?>? allows you to ?> ?compensate for volumetric changes in your ?> ?> compensated volumes ?due to the exterior pressure, as well ?> ?as ?>? for thermal expansion of the oil, ?and if ?> you have any ?>? leakage at all, you leak oil ?> out, rather than water in, ?>? which can be an ?> ?expensive lesson. Additionally, if you ?> ?> provide the bias with something like a ?spring loaded ?>? cylinder or elastomeric ?bladder, you can ?> instrument its ?>? displacement for accurate ?> monitoring of demanded ?>? compensation volume, ?> and potentially detect leaks well in ?> ?> advance of when they ?actually become a problem. ?>? ?Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage ?> of not ?>? compensating ?for boundary-layer ?> viscosity effects ?on ?>? rotating shafts,! ?>? ? density ?>? ?differences ?> (gravity induced exchange ?and/or centripetally ?>? accelerated ?fluid) and other small but ?> cumulative ?effects ?>? that can contribute to ?> water ingress.? ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?>? -----Inline Attachment ?> Follows----- ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> -----Inline ?Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 11 16:22:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:22:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <1735996225.742697.1433977112750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <38817208-7e5e-4ab3-9227-d93509d7b331@email.android.com> <1735996225.742697.1433977112750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <351831904.1548090.1434054161613.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Back on the trail of the pvc tube crush depth.I compared our fuelflex tube with a similar product (clear flex) rated for full vacuum.Clear flex had a thicker wall & slightly harder durometer of 60.Scaling the dimentions, I came up with the fuelflex being 57% of the crush pressureof clear flex.?I can remember the safety margin for plastic strength where human life was concernedwas 4x. So if the Clear flex had a safety margin of only 2 x then it would crush at14.7 x 2 = 29.4 psi. So the flexifuel would have a minimum of 16 psi crush depth.However as said in an earlier email, the max internal operating pressure on fuelflex is 40 psi& with safety margins & relationship between internal & external pressure resistanceit could indicate as high as 100 psi crush depth."User beware"Cheers Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Hi Sean,of specific interest is the crush depth of this pvc tubinghttp://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/123/=xkgylbwith?1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" wall & shore A65 hardness.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca I just caught up with this discussion. I'll write something about tube collapse when I get home this evening. As for a test can, I have previously used SCUBA cylinders that had failed their inspections due to problems in the thread or spot corrosion which I subsequently cut off and then just add a lid, but in this case, why not pipe the housing back to the cab and just throw a pressure transducer or gauge on that tube?? What you're really interested in is the delta-P inside and out, correct?? Off the cuff, I doubt you'll see anything. Those flexible hoses you are all using are not magically stiffening under pressure. Likely it's an air problem, or lack of expansion volume.Sean On June 10, 2015 6:20:32 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could use for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the purpose of creating a small test chamber? On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,>>>?if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story.? ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then contract & suck in water.I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can look at the heat expansioncharacteristics of the oil you are using to geta?worst case scenario of volume change.AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you can dial in a small amount ofoverpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for expansion.After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore hardness (A65) & dimensions to theplastic tube you are using.It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 psi, & with safety factorsincluded it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi.I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate lights :)The verdicts not out but I am very warynow.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, There really is no other explanation than air in the motor.? I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil.? The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth.? It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory.? My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space.? It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM ?Alec,once you ?get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are ?usingthe ?external pressure rating doesn't ?change.I think ?the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would ?be basing?the 40 psi ?maximum pressure on an unlimited length of ?tube.Another ?factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it ?lessflexible.Alan ? ? From: Private via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: Personal ?Submersibles General Discussion ? ?Sent: ?Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM ? Subject: Re: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?The hose is wound around the motor, so there ?are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were ?laid out straight, you would find the high length to ?diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to ?collapse via the general instability failure mode. ?There are several types of ?PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got ?might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is ?really soft and pliable. ?Problem is, I still have no satisfactory ?explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up ?pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses ?can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a ?good alternative theory. ?> On Jun ?9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ?wrote: ?> ?> Alan, ?> My gut feeling is the hose will flatten ?quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it ?round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. ?> Hank ?> ?-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?> ?> Subject: ?Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> To: "Personal Submersibles General ?Discussion" ?> Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 ?PM ?> ?> Do ?> you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or ?> are you saying that just as is it will ?flatten ?> easily?Alan ?> ?>?? From: hank pronk ?via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> To: Personal ?> Submersibles General Discussion ?> ?> ?> Sent: ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?> ?> ?> Alan, ?> I think ?> it will flatten under water right away ?because it is not ?> round and has little ?strength to keep it round. ?> ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?> On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via ?> Personal_Submersibles ?> wrote: ?> ?>? Subject: Re: ?> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca ?>? To: "Personal Submersibles ?General ?> Discussion" ?>? Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 ?PM ?> ?>? Hi ?> ?> Alec,that one ?>? is also showing 40psi.This is ?> a ?>? Sean type ?problem.I guess ?>? it's a bit like ?snapping a match stick. ?> Anyone can ?do ?>? it, but try breaking it ?> bycrushing ?>? it from ?end to end. In this case ?> you can ?squeeze the tube ?>? & bend it but ?> try crushing ?>? it ?cross sectionally with ?> even pressure ?all ?>? around.A ?> ?> solution may be to just squeeze up a ?section of the hose ?>? with a hose ?crimpso that a ?> ?> ?point of weakness is created for the water pressure to ?>? continue crushing thetube from ?>? there along it's length.Alan ?>? ? ? ?>? ? From: ?Alec Smyth ?> via ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? To: Personal ?>? Submersibles General Discussion ?>? ?> ?> ?>? Sent: ?> ?> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM ?>? ?> Subject: Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: ?> Snoopy at Seneca ?>? ? ?> ?> Wow. If ?>? there is no mistake that is really ?> counter intuitive, ?>? ?because the hose feels ?> super pliable in ?your fingers - ?>? almost like ?> those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you ?know ?>? what I mean. The size I'm ?using is half ?> the wall ?>? thickness of what you calculated ?> with, if that makes a ?>? difference. It's ?> 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X ?>? 1/16" ?> ?thickness. ?>? Alec ?>? On Tue, ?>? Jun 9, ?2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via ?> ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Alec,I had a ?>? look at the ?> specs ?on that link. Thanks.The ?>? 3/8" ?ID ?> x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is ?rated for ?>? 40psi internal pressure.As ?this ?>? is for fuel there could be a ?safety margin of ?> 4x, so 160 psi ?>? burst pressure.I ran a ?>? couple of plastics I have in my ?pressure ?> program through ?>? internal and ?> ?thenexternal ?>? pressure, & the ?maximum ?> external pressure was 2/3rds ?the ?>? internal ?> in ?both cases.This ?>? could mean that it ?would ?> take 106 psi before the hose ?would ?>? equalize ?> ?significantly.The ?>? diameter would ?maybe ?> shrink a bit before ?>? collapsing.Cheers ?>? ?Alan ?> ?>? ? ?>? ?>? ? From: Alec ?Smyth via ?>? Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 10:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? The stuff ?>? ?I'm using is really flexible, and has a ?> wall thickness ?>? of ?only 1/16". I'm ?> having trouble ?imagining that ?>? the seal ?> could offer less resistance than this, ?it's ?>? very soft. See McMaster item ?#5552K25. ?>? Best, ?>? Alec ?> ?> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan ?James ?> ?> via ?Personal_Submersibles ?>? wrote: ?> ?> ?>? Does anyone ?(Sean) ?>? have the ?> ?material specifications in theirpressure programs for the ?> soft pvc that we ?>? ?would be using inour ?>? flexible ?compensation hoses?The nearest I had ?> ?was nylon, & that had ?>? a crush ?depth of ?> 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long ?tube, 10mm diameter & ?>? 2mm wall ?thickness.I was ?> ?> ?thinking of using oil filled light housings with the ?>? wiringrunning through ?> ?> flexible hose as ?compensation, but are having second ?>? ?thoughts.Alan ?>? ? ? ? ?>? From: Sean T. ?>? ?Stevenson via ?> Personal_Submersibles ? ?>?? To: Personal ?>? ?Submersibles ?> General Discussion ?> ?>?? Sent: Wednesday, ?June ?>? 10, 2015 6:11 AM ?>?? Subject: ?> Re: ?>? [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy ?at ?> Seneca ?>? ? ?>? I have ?> ?always ?>? been a fan of oil compensation ?at ?> higher than ambient ?>? pressure, for a variety ?> of reasons. The only real downside ?>? is the ?> ?environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the ?>? surrounding water in the event of a ?leak, but ?> that impact ?>? can be mitigated with oil ?> selection. Positive pressure ?>? allows you to ?> ?compensate for volumetric changes in your ?> ?> compensated volumes ?due to the exterior pressure, as well ?> ?as ?>? for thermal expansion of the oil, ?and if ?> you have any ?>? leakage at all, you leak oil ?> out, rather than water in, ?>? which can be an ?> ?expensive lesson. Additionally, if you ?> ?> provide the bias with something like a ?spring loaded ?>? cylinder or elastomeric ?bladder, you can ?> instrument its ?>? displacement for accurate ?> monitoring of demanded ?>? compensation volume, ?> and potentially detect leaks well in ?> ?> advance of when they ?actually become a problem. ?>? ?Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage ?> of not ?>? compensating ?for boundary-layer ?> viscosity effects ?on ?>? rotating shafts,! ?>? ? density ?>? ?differences ?> (gravity induced exchange ?and/or centripetally ?>? accelerated ?fluid) and other small but ?> cumulative ?effects ?>? that can contribute to ?> water ingress.? ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> ?>? ?Personal_Submersibles ?> mailing list ?> ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?>? ? ?> ?>? -----Inline Attachment ?> Follows----- ?> ?> ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?>? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?>? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?>? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?> -----Inline ?Attachment Follows----- ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?> ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 11 20:21:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 12:21:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca In-Reply-To: <351831904.1548090.1434054161613.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047569083.78562.1433900252614.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1433901588.19157.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1537833897.146281.1433906679075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <38817208-7e5e-4ab3-9227-d93509d7b331@email.android.com> <1735996225.742697.1433977112750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <351831904.1548090.1434054161613.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7DDE73B9-F752-4E1C-BC96-03709F115386@yahoo.com> Nailing this down. This is Tygon F-4040-a the fuelflex equivalent as stated by the fuelflex web site. http://www.processsystems.saint-gobain.com/uploadedFiles/SGPPL-PS/Documents/Flexible_Tubing/FT-Tygon-F4040A.pdf It has a vacuum rating of 29.9 in. of mercury which is a full vacuum, so would be able to stand an external pressure of 14.7 psi. minimum. A bit of a revelation to me as I have advocated it's use for equalising light systems. However a metal crimp partially squeezing the tube should improve it. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/06/2015, at 8:22 am, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Back on the trail of the pvc tube crush depth. > I compared our fuelflex tube with a similar product (clear flex) rated for full vacuum. > Clear flex had a thicker wall & slightly harder durometer of 60. > Scaling the dimentions, I came up with the fuelflex being 57% of the crush pressuredow > of clear flex. > I can remember the safety margin for plastic strength where human life was concerned > was 4x. So if the Clear flex had a safety margin of only 2 x then it would crush at > 14.7 x 2 = 29.4 psi. So the flexifuel would have a minimum of 16 psi crush depth. > However as said in an earlier email, the max internal operating pressure on fuelflex is 40 psi > & with safety margins & relationship between internal & external pressure resistance > it could indicate as high as 100 psi crush depth. > "User beware" > Cheers Alan > > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 10:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > Hi Sean, > of specific interest is the crush depth of this pvc tubing > http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/123/=xkgylb > with 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X 1/16" wall & shore A65 hardness. > Cheers Alan > > > > From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:56 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > I just caught up with this discussion. I'll write something about tube collapse when I get home this evening. As for a test can, I have previously used SCUBA cylinders that had failed their inspections due to problems in the thread or spot corrosion which I subsequently cut off and then just add a lid, but in this case, why not pipe the housing back to the cab and just throw a pressure transducer or gauge on that tube? What you're really interested in is the delta-P inside and out, correct? Off the cuff, I doubt you'll see anything. Those flexible hoses you are all using are not magically stiffening under pressure. Likely it's an air problem, or lack of expansion volume. > Sean > > > On June 10, 2015 6:20:32 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What I'd really like to do is find some sort of pressure vessel I could use for running tests, actually measuring pressures inside the motor as the ambient pressure increases. I wonder what could be recycled for the purpose of creating a small test chamber? > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Alec, > >>> if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. > ... No, the oil will heat up & expand & force it's way out the seals, then contract & suck in water. > I am just repeating what Carsten & Emile have found by experience. You can look at the heat expansion > characteristics of the oil you are using to get a worst case scenario of volume change. > AS I have posted before, I like Hugh's idea of using a regulator that you can dial in a small amount of > overpressure & compensate the motor with or without oil. It alows for expansion. > After a bit of googling I came across a rubber tube of similar shore hardness (A65) & dimensions to the > plastic tube you are using. > It was rated -.95 to +16 bar. So that would mean it wouldn't crush at 13.9 psi, & with safety factors > included it could mean it wouldn't crush till 55 psi. > I have advocated to people that they use this hose method to compensate lights :) > The verdicts not out but I am very wary now. > Cheers Alan > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 2:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > All right, lets see what results that produces - I look forward to hearing. For my part, I'm going to concentrate on eliminating the leftover air because I agree, if we have 100% oil and no trapped air at all it should be the end of the story. I'm going to put NPT set screws in the nose cones as I think that will be the easiest way to fill without voids. I'm also trying to get new armatures, as the commutators have wear and I want to bring back their youth a bit. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:59 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > There really is no other explanation than air in the motor. I can't see motor temperature causing it because the motor is in the most ideal environment (cold water) and full of oil. The air is compressing and water is entering past the seal due to shaft rotation and depth. It wouldn't matter if the hose did not collapse, because the motor is plumb full of oil in theory. My vertical thruster has no hose or bladder, it is just full of oil and it seems just fine, It only has one seal, so no little air space. It really does not take much air volume to create the problem, the inside seal will hold whatever small over pressure we create, until it fails of coarse and that is the visible oil we see causing dock side shame. :-( > One thing you could do if you want to keep the inner seal is to pack the void with grease. > I am changing Gamma's system this weekend to the open tube idea and am confident it will solve my leak. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 9:37 PM > > Alec,once you > get past an inch or so in length at the diameter we are > usingthe > external pressure rating doesn't > change.I think > the same would apply to the internal rating; so they would > be basing the 40 psi > maximum pressure on an unlimited length of > tube.Another > factor may be the cold operating temperatures making it > lessflexible.Alan > > From: Private via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sent: > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > The hose is wound around the motor, so there > are quasi-flattened parts I'm sure. But even if it were > laid out straight, you would find the high length to > diameter ratio would make it extremely susceptible to > collapse via the general instability failure mode. > > There are several types of > PVC, and I wonder if the material properties you've got > might be for the rigid type used in plumbing. This stuff is > really soft and pliable. > > Problem is, I still have no satisfactory > explanation for why my motors or Hank's seal come up > pressurized. I'm not convinced that these floppy hoses > can withstand significant pressure, but I don't have a > good alternative theory. > > > > > On Jun > 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alan, > > My gut feeling is the hose will flatten > quite easily as is because it has no support to keep it > round. Just a feeling, can't argue with specs though. > > Hank > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: > Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:54 > PM > > > > Do > > you mean if it is crimped Hank?Or > > are you saying that just as is it will > flatten > > easily?Alan > > > > From: hank pronk > via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 11:27 AM > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > Alan, > > I think > > it will flatten under water right away > because it is not > > round and has little > strength to keep it round. > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 6/9/15, Alan James via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca > > To: "Personal Submersibles > General > > Discussion" > > Received: Tuesday, June 9, 2015, 7:15 > PM > > > > Hi > > > > Alec,that one > > is also showing 40psi.This is > > a > > Sean type > problem.I guess > > it's a bit like > snapping a match stick. > > Anyone can > do > > it, but try breaking it > > bycrushing > > it from > end to end. In this case > > you can > squeeze the tube > > & bend it but > > try crushing > > it > cross sectionally with > > even pressure > all > > around.A > > > > solution may be to just squeeze up a > section of the hose > > with a hose > crimpso that a > > > > > point of weakness is created for the water pressure to > > continue crushing thetube from > > there along it's length.Alan > > > > From: > Alec Smyth > > via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > > > > > To: Personal > > Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > > > > Sent: > > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:55 AM > > > > Subject: Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: > > Snoopy at Seneca > > > > > > > Wow. If > > there is no mistake that is really > > counter intuitive, > > > because the hose feels > > super pliable in > your fingers - > > almost like > > those yellowish rubber lab hoses if you > know > > what I mean. The size I'm > using is half > > the wall > > thickness of what you calculated > > with, if that makes a > > difference. It's > > 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD X > > 1/16" > > > thickness. > > Alec > > On Tue, > > Jun 9, > 2015 at 6:46 PM, Alan James via > > > Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Alec,I had a > > look at the > > specs > on that link. Thanks.The > > 3/8" > ID > > x 5/8" OD X 1/8" tube is > rated for > > 40psi internal pressure.As > this > > is for fuel there could be a > safety margin of > > 4x, so 160 psi > > burst pressure.I ran a > > couple of plastics I have in my > pressure > > program through > > internal and > > > thenexternal > > pressure, & the > maximum > > external pressure was 2/3rds > the > > internal > > in > both cases.This > > could mean that it > would > > take 106 psi before the hose > would > > equalize > > > significantly.The > > diameter would > maybe > > shrink a bit before > > collapsing.Cheers > > > Alan > > > > > > > > From: Alec > Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 10:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > The stuff > > > I'm using is really flexible, and has a > > wall thickness > > of > only 1/16". I'm > > having trouble > imagining that > > the seal > > could offer less resistance than this, > it's > > very soft. See McMaster item > #5552K25. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Alan > James > > > > via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone > (Sean) > > have the > > > material specifications in theirpressure programs for the > > soft pvc that we > > > would be using inour > > flexible > compensation hoses?The nearest I had > > > was nylon, & that had > > a crush > depth of > > 8,000ftfor a 1 meter long > tube, 10mm diameter & > > 2mm wall > thickness.I was > > > > > thinking of using oil filled light housings with the > > wiringrunning through > > > > flexible hose as > compensation, but are having second > > > thoughts.Alan > > > > From: Sean T. > > > Stevenson via > > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal > > > Submersibles > > General Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, > June > > 10, 2015 6:11 AM > > Subject: > > Re: > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy > at > > Seneca > > > > > I have > > > always > > been a fan of oil compensation > at > > higher than ambient > > pressure, for a variety > > of reasons. The only real downside > > is the > > > environmental impact of potentially losing oil to the > > surrounding water in the event of a > leak, but > > that impact > > can be mitigated with oil > > selection. Positive pressure > > allows you to > > > compensate for volumetric changes in your > > > > compensated volumes > due to the exterior pressure, as well > > > as > > for thermal expansion of the oil, > and if > > you have any > > leakage at all, you leak oil > > out, rather than water in, > > which can be an > > > expensive lesson. Additionally, if you > > > > > provide the bias with something like a > spring loaded > > cylinder or elastomeric > bladder, you can > > instrument its > > displacement for accurate > > monitoring of demanded > > compensation volume, > > and potentially detect leaks well in > > > > advance of when they > actually become a problem. > > > Ambient-only compensation has the disadvantage > > of not > > compensating > for boundary-layer > > viscosity effects > on > > rotating shafts,! > > density > > > differences > > (gravity induced exchange > and/or centripetally > > accelerated > fluid) and other small but > > cumulative > effects > > that can contribute to > > water ingress. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment > > Follows----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 12 20:23:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 20:23:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Website with a few pages of submarines: Message-ID: <557B7813.7090609@ohiohills.com> http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/watercraft/sport_submersibles/all_sport_submersibles.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 14 17:23:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap Message-ID: <1434317028.91647.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, I just made a discovery, I opened up the tail end of Gamma to install my experimental p trap tube. I put a 1/8 ss tube down 24 inches inside my rear ballast tank. The discovery was that there was pressure built up in the drive shaft tube. I did not dive deep enough to create this pressure, that means it is from sitting in the hot sun (30C) and expanding the oil. Maybe our problem is expanding oil from hot weather then cooling at depth and sucking in water. Well maybe this p trap idea is the solution. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 14 17:52:04 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 17:52:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap In-Reply-To: <1434317028.91647.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434317028.91647.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank. Looking forward to hearing how it goes. For my part I have trouble with the oil trap method because of the fact the thrusters rotate. But I'm going to try the following. The old method is a hose wound around the cans between an elbow at the top and one at the bottom. To fill, I disconnect the tube from the top elbow and add oil through the tube until it flows out the top. The problem is a little of the elbow protrudes inside the can, even though I trimmed it, so its hard to get every last bubble out. The plan is to replace the tube with a plastic bellows bottle attached to the bottom elbow, and put in a set screw in the hole where the top elbow is. This would do two thing; significantly increase the compensation volume and sensitivity of the bladder, and eliminate the protrusion caused of the elbow inside the can. I'm pretty confident this will solve the issue, but the only problem is I don't have any dive plans in the near future to find out. Let us know how the trap approach goes! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > I just made a discovery, I opened up the tail end of Gamma to install my > experimental p trap tube. I put a 1/8 ss tube down 24 inches inside my > rear ballast tank. The discovery was that there was pressure built up in > the drive shaft tube. I did not dive deep enough to create this pressure, > that means it is from sitting in the hot sun (30C) > and expanding the oil. Maybe our problem is expanding oil from hot > weather then cooling at depth and sucking in water. Well maybe this p trap > idea is the solution. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 14 18:02:05 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 15:02:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434319325.19924.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, Your plan is good also because the oil can expand from hot weather with the bellows. I hope to be back in the water in a week or so. Life and work is holding me up. I have my new trailer ready, I built a hydraulic actuated idler wheel. The system raises the trailer off the ball as well as allows the trailer to roll into the water. I use a tow strap rather than an extendable bar because the ramps here are long and steep enough. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/14/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 14, 2015, 5:52 PM Thanks Hank. Looking forward to hearing how it goes. For my part I have trouble with the oil trap method because of the fact the thrusters rotate. But I'm going to try the following. The old method is a hose wound around the cans between an elbow at the top and one at the bottom. To fill, I disconnect the tube from the top elbow and add oil through the tube until it flows out the top. The problem is a little of the elbow protrudes inside the can, even though I trimmed it, so its hard to get every last bubble out. The plan is to replace the tube with a plastic bellows bottle attached to the bottom elbow, and put in a set screw in the hole where the top elbow is. This would do two thing; significantly increase the compensation volume and sensitivity of the bladder, and eliminate the protrusion caused of the elbow inside the can. I'm pretty confident this will solve the issue, but the only problem is I don't have any dive plans in the near future to find out. Let us know how the trap approach goes! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I just made a discovery, I opened up the tail end of Gamma to install my experimental p trap tube.? I put a 1/8 ss tube down 24 inches inside my rear ballast tank.? The discovery was that there was pressure built up in the drive shaft tube.? I did not dive deep enough to create this pressure, that means it is from sitting in the hot sun (30C) and expanding the oil.? Maybe our problem is expanding oil from hot weather then cooling at depth and sucking in water. Well maybe this p trap idea is the solution. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 14 19:16:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:16:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap Message-ID: <314be.33b16963.42af6543@aol.com> Alec, Could you tap a small block and weld/adhere it to the top of the can for the entry point for your elbow? That would eliminate any protrusion into the top of the can. You could substitute a T with a bleed for the elbow and even add another fill point at either the top or the bottom. Jim In a message dated 6/14/2015 5:02:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Alec, Your plan is good also because the oil can expand from hot weather with the bellows. I hope to be back in the water in a week or so. Life and work is holding me up. I have my new trailer ready, I built a hydraulic actuated idler wheel. The system raises the trailer off the ball as well as allows the trailer to roll into the water. I use a tow strap rather than an extendable bar because the ramps here are long and steep enough. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/14/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 14, 2015, 5:52 PM Thanks Hank. Looking forward to hearing how it goes. For my part I have trouble with the oil trap method because of the fact the thrusters rotate. But I'm going to try the following. The old method is a hose wound around the cans between an elbow at the top and one at the bottom. To fill, I disconnect the tube from the top elbow and add oil through the tube until it flows out the top. The problem is a little of the elbow protrudes inside the can, even though I trimmed it, so its hard to get every last bubble out. The plan is to replace the tube with a plastic bellows bottle attached to the bottom elbow, and put in a set screw in the hole where the top elbow is. This would do two thing; significantly increase the compensation volume and sensitivity of the bladder, and eliminate the protrusion caused of the elbow inside the can. I'm pretty confident this will solve the issue, but the only problem is I don't have any dive plans in the near future to find out. Let us know how the trap approach goes! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I just made a discovery, I opened up the tail end of Gamma to install my experimental p trap tube. I put a 1/8 ss tube down 24 inches inside my rear ballast tank. The discovery was that there was pressure built up in the drive shaft tube. I did not dive deep enough to create this pressure, that means it is from sitting in the hot sun (30C) and expanding the oil. Maybe our problem is expanding oil from hot weather then cooling at depth and sucking in water. Well maybe this p trap idea is the solution. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 14 20:11:03 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 20:11:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap In-Reply-To: <314be.33b16963.42af6543@aol.com> References: <314be.33b16963.42af6543@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, I could, but with the use of a set screw I no longer have a need for the elbow. :) Alec On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:16 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > Could you tap a small block and weld/adhere it to the top of the can for > the entry point for your elbow? That would eliminate any protrusion into > the top of the can. You could substitute a T with a bleed for the elbow > and even add another fill point at either the top or the bottom. > Jim > > In a message dated 6/14/2015 5:02:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Alec, > Your plan is good also because the oil can expand from hot weather with > the bellows. I hope to be back in the water in a week or so. Life and > work is holding me up. > I have my new trailer ready, I built a hydraulic actuated idler wheel. > The system raises the trailer off the ball as well as allows the trailer to > roll into the water. I use a tow strap rather than an extendable bar > because the ramps here are long and steep enough. > > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/14/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] p trap > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, June 14, 2015, 5:52 PM > > Thanks > Hank. Looking forward to hearing how it goes. For my part I > have trouble with the oil trap method because of the fact > the thrusters rotate. But I'm going to try the > following. The old method is a hose wound around the cans > between an elbow at the top and one at the bottom. To fill, > I disconnect the tube from the top elbow and add oil through > the tube until it flows out the top. The problem is a little > of the elbow protrudes inside the can, even though I trimmed > it, so its hard to get every last bubble out. The plan is to > replace the tube with a plastic bellows bottle attached to > the bottom elbow, and put in a set screw in the hole where > the top elbow is. This would do two thing; significantly > increase the compensation volume and sensitivity of the > bladder, and eliminate the protrusion caused of the elbow > inside the can. I'm pretty confident this will solve the > issue, but the only problem is I don't have any dive > plans in the near future to find out. > Let us know how the trap approach > goes! > Best, > Alec > On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at > 5:23 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Alec, > > I just made a discovery, I opened up the tail end of Gamma > to install my experimental p trap tube. I put a 1/8 ss > tube down 24 inches inside my rear ballast tank. The > discovery was that there was pressure built up in the drive > shaft tube. I did not dive deep enough to create this > pressure, that means it is from sitting in the hot sun > (30C) > > and expanding the oil. Maybe our problem is expanding oil > from hot weather then cooling at depth and sucking in water. > Well maybe this p trap idea is the solution. > > Hank > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 12:26:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:26:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: Hi All Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind Regards James ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 14:03:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've seen. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All > > Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super > simple.... > > I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking > of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. > > I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O > ring? > > Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but > not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a > taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine > anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > > If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled > up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most > of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the > start of the through hull to match? > > I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a > possibility. > > Pic attached. > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 15:22:02 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 12:22:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <20150617122202.EA3901B6@m0048140.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 16:40:56 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: <20150617122202.EA3901B6@m0048140.ppops.net> References: <20150617122202.EA3901B6@m0048140.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, James, I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all > of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example > it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a > particular function? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > > Hi James, > > I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is > neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. > On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail > catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've > seen. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All > > Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super > simple.... > > I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking > of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. > > I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O > ring? > > Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but > not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a > taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine > anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > > If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled > up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most > of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the > start of the through hull to match? > > I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a > possibility. > > Pic attached. > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 21:24:29 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 21:24:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Update Message-ID: All, I wanted to share with the full group the latest on the 2015 convention occurring next week. I believe we will be having a good time even though the final attendance is low (7). A smaller group allows some flexibility that in my mind = "sub mad men" ! Attached in a semi final agenda for those curious. Also, I will have a *Web site open during the technical sessions* (more details to follow) on June 26th that anyone can log into and see/hear the technical presentations live. The audio is one way (you can hear) but we can take your questions via a chat window (or so I have been told). This is a new technology for the conventions I would like to experiment with so be patient if it has glitches : ) Looking forward to it! Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Detailed Agenda.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 17561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 17 22:04:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 19:04:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <20150617190448.F3918D77@m0005297.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 04:39:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:39:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve Sounds good with the web site session for those of us that can't attend. I will be watching. Hope it works ok! Thanks james On 18 June 2015 at 02:24, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > All, I wanted to share with the full group the latest on the 2015 > convention occurring next week. > > I believe we will be having a good time even though the final attendance > is low (7). A smaller group allows some flexibility that in my mind = "sub > mad men" ! > > Attached in a semi final agenda for those curious. > > Also, I will have a *Web site open during the technical sessions* (more > details to follow) on June 26th that anyone can log into and see/hear the > technical presentations live. The audio is one way (you can hear) but we > can take your questions via a chat window (or so I have been told). This is > a new technology for the conventions I would like to experiment with so be > patient if it has glitches : ) > > Looking forward to it! > > Steve > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 04:58:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:58:18 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: <20150617190448.F3918D77@m0005297.ppops.net> References: <20150617190448.F3918D77@m0005297.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would push in. A flat step would probably be better like you say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably not required. Brian, I used the 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm reamer for the bore. regards James On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Oh cool ! Thanks Alec ! I owe you much over the years ! > > Brian > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > > I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to > machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case > its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to > put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, James, I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all > of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example > it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a > particular function? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > > Hi James, > > I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is > neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. > On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail > catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've > seen. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All > > Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super > simple.... > > I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking > of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. > > I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O > ring? > > Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but > not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a > taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine > anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > > If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled > up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most > of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the > start of the through hull to match? > > I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a > possibility. > > Pic attached. > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jammer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 08:25:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434630330.12961.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM Hi Alec\Brian,?Yes, maybe it would push in.? A flat step would probably be better like you say.? But maybe im over thinking it as usual.? Probably not required.?Brian, I used the 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the plans.? However, its also convenient for using a 16mm reamer for the bore.? ?regardsJames? On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh cool !?? Thanks Alec !??? I owe you much over the years !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 Hi Brian, I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. Best, Alec? On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, James,? I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps)?,? I noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, ?Why such a heavy duty thickness?? Was that for a particular function??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 Hi James, I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've seen. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea.? Its super simple....?I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull.? Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans.?I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? Anyway, here is my idea.? It would take a little bit more machining, but not much.? Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through.? (I did that on mine anyway).? The handle is made with a cam type end.? If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up.? The bar would be pulled up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the leak.? I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull to match??I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own.? That's a possibility.?Pic attached.?Kind RegardsJames? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 10:55:31 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 07:55:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <20150618075531.D9879AE2@m0005299.ppops.net> Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM Hi Alec\Brian,?Yes, maybe it would push in.? A flat step would probably be better like you say.? But maybe im over thinking it as usual.? Probably not required.?Brian, I used the 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the plans.? However, its also convenient for using a 16mm reamer for the bore.? ?regardsJames? On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh cool !?? Thanks Alec !??? I owe you much over the years !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 Hi Brian, I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. Best, Alec? On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, James,? I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps)?,? I noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, ?Why such a heavy duty thickness?? Was that for a particular function??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 Hi James, I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've seen. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea.? Its super simple....?I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull.? Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans.?I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? Anyway, here is my idea.? It would take a little bit more machining, but not much.? Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through.? (I did that on mine anyway).? The handle is made with a cam type end.? If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up.? The bar would be pulled up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the leak.? I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull to match??I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own.? That's a possibility.?Pic attached.?Kind RegardsJames? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 12:15:57 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: <20150618075531.D9879AE2@m0005299.ppops.net> References: <20150618075531.D9879AE2@m0005299.ppops.net> Message-ID: I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. Best, Alec On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo > section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was > not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a > flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to > that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > > Hi > Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would > push in. A flat step would probably be better like you > say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably > not required. Brian, I used the > 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the > plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm > reamer for the bore. > regardsJames > On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Oh cool ! Thanks Alec > ! I owe you much over the years > ! Brian > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > I tend to use quite thick > through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the > O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my > case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you > have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an > inch is fine for many applications. > Best, > > Alec > On > Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Alec, James, I'm > using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most > all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I > noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a > heavy duty thickness? Was that for a particular > function? Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > > Hi James, > I think > with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea > is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step > instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed > through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the > odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've > seen. > Best, > Alec > On > Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Hi All Seeing as its a > bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super > simple.... I have been thinking how > you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat > type 5\8th through hulls as in the > plans. I believe Scott had a leak > when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? > > Anyway, here is my idea. It > would take a little bit more machining, but not much. > Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding > part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. > (I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam > type end. > > If you get a > leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled > up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully > stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even > machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull > to match? I suppose the bar could get > pushed through and jam on its own. That's a > possibility. Pic > attached. Kind > RegardsJames > ? > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 12:35:33 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:35:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] website updates Message-ID: <5582F355.1010003@psubs.org> I've added a couple of things to the website. 1) Equipment Reviews www.psubs.org -> Resources & Reference -> Equipment Reviews We'll use this page to keep track of products or equipment that is known to be either good or bad for small submarine purposes. 2) Oil Compensated Motor Pressure Tube calculator. www.psubs.org -> Resources & Reference -> Design Tools -> Calculators -> Pressure Compensation Tube Calculator Ok, that's a mouthful...but in reference to the discussion lately surrounding oil compensated motors and using an open ended tube to resolve issues with air bubbles...enter max depth and tube length, and this calculator will tell you the length of the resulting air bubble at depth that separates the motor oil from the ambient water. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 14:35:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <20150618113530.EA20D63F@m0005312.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 14:36:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 11:36:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] website updates Message-ID: <20150618113645.EA20D6CA@m0005312.ppops.net> Great extra resource ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] website updates Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:35:33 -0400 I've added a couple of things to the website. 1) Equipment Reviews www.psubs.org -> Resources & Reference -> Equipment Reviews We'll use this page to keep track of products or equipment that is known to be either good or bad for small submarine purposes. 2) Oil Compensated Motor Pressure Tube calculator. www.psubs.org -> Resources & Reference -> Design Tools -> Calculators -> Pressure Compensation Tube Calculator Ok, that's a mouthful...but in reference to the discussion lately surrounding oil compensated motors and using an open ended tube to resolve issues with air bubbles...enter max depth and tube length, and this calculator will tell you the length of the resulting air bubble at depth that separates the motor oil from the ambient water. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 14:40:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:40:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? In-Reply-To: <20150618113530.EA20D63F@m0005312.ppops.net> References: <20150618113530.EA20D63F@m0005312.ppops.net> Message-ID: It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the > time? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who don't to > put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP valve was the > cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately nothing happened to > him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during his dive and upon > surfacing blew out the dome when just below the surface. He was blown out > himself with it. The sub sank, and he proceeded to re-float it without > losing beat. I use the OP valve routinely to equalize pressure so I can > open the hatch easily. Just a little push on the stem does it. One thing > about OP valves, they have to be capable of handling large flow rates. > Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo > section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was > not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a > flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to > that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. > Hank -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > > Hi > Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would > push in. A flat step would probably be better like you > say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably > not required. Brian, I used the > 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the > plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm > reamer for the bore. > regardsJames > On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Oh cool ! Thanks Alec > ! I owe you much over the years > ! Brian > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > I tend to use quite thick > through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the > O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my > case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you > have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an > inch is fine for many applications. > Best, > > Alec > On > Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Alec, James, I'm > using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most > all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I > noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a > heavy duty thickness? Was that for a particular > function? Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > > Hi James, > I think > with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea > is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step > instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed > through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the > odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've > seen. > Best, > Alec > On > Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Hi All Seeing as its a > bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super > simple.... I have been thinking how > you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat > type 5\8th through hulls as in the > plans. I believe Scott had a leak > when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? > > Anyway, here is my idea. It > would take a little bit more machining, but not much. > Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding > part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. > (I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam > type end. > > If you get a > leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled > up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully > stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even > machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull > to match? I suppose the bar could get > pushed through and jam on its own. That's a > possibility. Pic > attached. Kind > RegardsJames > ? > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 14:53:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <9a03c.26ae6361.42b46d9b@aol.com> Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. Jim In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the time? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. Best, Alec On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM Hi Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would push in. A flat step would probably be better like you say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably not required. Brian, I used the 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm reamer for the bore. regardsJames On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Oh cool ! Thanks Alec ! I owe you much over the years ! Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 Hi Brian, I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, James, I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a particular function? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 Hi James, I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've seen. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi All Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind RegardsJames ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--____________________________________________ ___ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--____________________________________________ ___ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 15:40:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:40:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Message-ID: <20150618124030.EA27196D@m0048139.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 15:51:21 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: <9bd10.45bbdd04.42b47b39@aol.com> If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. Jim In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve to make it open? Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by another valve. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. Jim In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the time? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. Best, Alec On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM Hi Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would push in. A flat step would probably be better like you say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably not required. Brian, I used the 5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm reamer for the bore. regardsJames On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Oh cool ! Thanks Alec ! I owe you much over the years ! Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 Hi Brian, I tend to use quite thick through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, James, I'm using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a particular function? Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 Hi James, I think with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've seen. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi All Seeing as its a bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? Anyway, here is my idea. It would take a little bit more machining, but not much. Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. (I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. If you get a leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind RegardsJames ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--____________________________________________ ___ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--____________________________________________ ___ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 16:27:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 13:27:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: <1wxgn4rsi5jqrl33llg9xyj8.1434659175229@email.android.com> How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be opened >manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than the preset >cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open it wider for more >rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > >Jim, > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve to >make it open? > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in an >open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by another >valve. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the sub >might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential to open >the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. That would also >equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the sub to make it a >whole lot easier to open the hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a normally closed >valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the time" in the sense >that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the >time? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who don't to >put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP valve was the >cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately nothing happened to >him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during his dive and upon >surfacing blew out the dome when just below the surface. He was blown out himself >with it. The sub sank, and he proceeded to re-float it without losing >beat. I use the OP valve routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the >hatch easily. Just a little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP >valves, they have to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little >Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I weld a >flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >! I owe you much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the >O-ring grooves into the shaft than into the insert. In my >case its just a matter of the tooling I have on hand. If you >have the tooling to put the grooves in the insert, half an >inch is fine for many applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Alec, James, I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most >all of my hull penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I >noticed in the example it was a 5/8" rod, Why such a >heavy duty thickness? Was that for a particular >function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea >is neat, however, and would probably work fine with a step >instead of a taper. On the other hand, does an O ring sealed >through-hull ever fail catastrophically? I've had the >odd drip, but that's all I've bad as I've >seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Hi All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super >simple.... I have been thinking how >you could stop a leaking through hull. Thinking of K boat >type 5\8th through hulls as in the >plans. I believe Scott had a leak >when he did his deep test due to a faulty O ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea. It >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding >part and a taper on the top to help push the bar through. >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam >type end. > >If you get a >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled >up, forcing the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully >stopping most of the leak. I suppose you could even >machine a matching taper into the start of the through hull >to match? I suppose the bar could get >pushed through and jam on its own. That's a >possibility. Pic >attached. Kind >RegardsJames >? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--____________________________________________ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--____________________________________________ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 19:19:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:19:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! Message-ID: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> TEST!!! -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > >Jim, > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >to make it open? > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >another valve. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the >time? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >! I owe you much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Alec, James, I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >particular function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >I've seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Hi All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea. It >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >on the top to help push the bar through. >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > >If you get a >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >RegardsJames ? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 19:25:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 23:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! In-Reply-To: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1498325163.1830319.1434669920369.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hearing you Ken.Alan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:19 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! TEST!!! -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking? pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure.? If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have? to be >opened manually.? If the differential were only slightly greater than? >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open? >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > >Jim, >? ? ? ? ? In that case? is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >to make it open? > > >Alec,? I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in? >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by? >another valve. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org? wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles? >To:? personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]? Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure.? When? you surface the >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough? differential >to open the valve automatically.? That's when you open it? manually.? >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative? pressure in the >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the? hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal? pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a? >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >time"? in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically,? have that valve open to the? outside all the >time?? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)? wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To:? Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject:? Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57? -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any? who >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP? >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately? >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during? >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >surface.? He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >proceeded to? re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >routinely to? equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >little push on? the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >to be capable of? handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such? small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > >Also? Alec,? I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the? photo >section.? That seems like a great solution to the? problem!? I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody? have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org)? wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To:? Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject:? Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30? -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the? hull.? I >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread? the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of? tooling and expertise. >Hank? -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James? Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >? wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To:? "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Received:? Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58? AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it? would >push in.? A flat step would probably be better like? you >say.? But maybe im over thinking it as usual.? Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths? bar because that's what was specified on the >plans.? However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the? bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015? at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Oh? cool !? Thanks Alec >!? ? I owe you? much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From:? Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To:? Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject:? Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56? -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite? thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine? the O-ring grooves >into the shaft than into the insert. In? my case its just a matter of >the tooling I have on hand. If? you have the tooling to put the grooves >in the insert, half? an inch is fine for many? applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed,? Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles? ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Alec,? James,? I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out? for most all of my hull >penetrations ( for valves and? flaps) ,? I noticed in the example it >was a 5/8" rod,? Why such a heavy duty thickness?? Was that for a? >particular function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From:? Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To:? Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject:? Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17? -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper,? this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >however,? and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >On? the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail? >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've? bad as? >I've seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed,? Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland? via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Hi? All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this? idea.? Its super simple.... I >have been thinking? how you could stop a leaking through hull.? >Thinking of K? boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I? >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a? faulty O >ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea.? It >would take a little bit more machining, but not? much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the? protruding part and a taper >on the top to help push the bar? through. >(I did that on mine anyway).? The handle is? made with a cam type end. > >If you get? a >leak, you can pull the handle up.? The bar would be? pulled up, forcing >the taper to jam into the penetrator,? hopefully stopping most of the >leak.? I suppose you could? even machine a matching taper into the >start of the through? hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed? >through and jam on its own.? That's? a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >RegardsJames ? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline? Attachment? Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________? Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)? >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing? list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________? Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)? >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles? mailing? list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 20:08:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:08:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! In-Reply-To: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your lungs. Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. Best, Alec On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > TEST!!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve > > How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if > it opens when submerged? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the > >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the > pressure > >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be > >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than > >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open > >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. > >Jim > > > > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > > > > >Jim, > > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve > >to make it open? > > > > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in > >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by > >another valve. > > > >Brian > > > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > >From: via Personal_Submersibles > >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > > > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the > >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential > >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. > >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the > >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. > >Jim > > > > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure > >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a > >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the > >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >wrote: > > > > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the > >time? > > > >Brian > > > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > > > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > > > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who > >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP > >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately > >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during > >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the > >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he > >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve > >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a > >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have > >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok > check valve or such small thing. > > > > > >Best, > > > >Alec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >wrote: > > > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo > >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I > was > >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > > > > >Brian > > > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > > > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > > > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I > >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined > part to that. > > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. > >Hank -------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto: > personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > > > >Hi > >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would > >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you > >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably > >not required. Brian, I used the > >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the > >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm > >reamer for the bore. > >regardsJames > >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, > >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >wrote: > >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec > >! I owe you much over the years > >! Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > > >From: Alec Smyth via > >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > > > >Hi Brian, > >I tend to use quite thick > >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves > >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of > >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves > >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. > >Best, > > > >Alec > >On > >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >wrote: > >Alec, James, I'm > >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull > >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it > >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a > >particular function? Brian > > > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > > >From: Alec Smyth via > >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? > >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > > > >Hi James, > >I think > >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, > >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. > >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail > >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as > >I've seen. > >Best, > >Alec > >On > >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via > >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > > >wrote: > >Hi All Seeing as its a > >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I > >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. > >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I > >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O > >ring? > > > >Anyway, here is my idea. It > >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. > >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper > >on the top to help push the bar through. > >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > > > >If you get a > >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing > >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the > >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the > >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed > >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind > >RegardsJames ? > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ > >_____ > >___ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ > >_____ > >___ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to= > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ > >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to= > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 20:16:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:16:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! In-Reply-To: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004c01d0aa25$2a127930$7e376b90$@telus.net> test return. -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-18-15 4:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! TEST!!! -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > >Jim, > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >to make it open? > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in an >open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >another valve. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the >time? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >! I owe you much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Alec, James, I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >particular function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >I've seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >wrote: >Hi All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea. It >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >on the top to help push the bar through. >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > >If you get a >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >RegardsJames ? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 20:59:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:59:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Message-ID: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 21:00:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 21:00:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! In-Reply-To: <1498325163.1830319.1434669920369.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003101d0aa1d$45c24f00$d146ed00$@cfl.rr.com> <1498325163.1830319.1434669920369.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003f01d0aa2b$4ee8f530$ecbadf90$@cfl.rr.com> Thanks, Ken From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 7:25 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! Hearing you Ken. Alan _____ From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:19 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TEST!!! TEST!!! -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > >Jim, > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >to make it open? > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >another valve. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles > >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the >time? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >wrote: > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >wrote: >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >! I owe you much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >wrote: >Alec, James, I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >particular function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >I've seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org ) > >wrote: >Hi All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea. It >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >on the top to help push the bar through. >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > >If you get a >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >RegardsJames ? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 18 22:16:13 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:16:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi Ken: Your proposal sounds great, I would be interested in either the 10 k or 20 k LED lights. Probably more than one. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 18, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 00:16:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Dean Cropp via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:16:25 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4159EF60-A255-406B-94FF-A2FD36086EA3@bigpond.com> Hi Ken.. I am an Underwater cameraman and hopefully soon a SUB builder!!! I would be interested in your proposal as I already build small housings for some of my lights and struggle to find good LED/Power supply combinations that also are not too difficult to heatsink the heat producing components. I am interested in building high power LED lights for underwater use for both subs and cameras.. Thanks Dean > On 19 Jun 2015, at 12:16 pm, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Ken: > > Your proposal sounds great, I would be interested in either the 10 k or 20 k LED lights. Probably more than one. > > John K. > (203) 414-1000 > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 18, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Any one there, >> >> >> I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. >> I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. >> >> I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. >> >> They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. >> >> I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. >> >> I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. >> >> Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. >> >> The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. >> >> I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. >> >> What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. >> >> Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. >> >> Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? >> >> The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. >> >> Not too interested in doing this commercially. >> >> For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. >> >> Ken Martindale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 00:24:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:24:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Keith, Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount of water. Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits at the top? We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over pressure condition. Best regards, Jim In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your lungs. Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. Best, Alec On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: TEST!!! -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if it opens when submerged? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the pressure >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: > > >Jim, > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >to make it open? > > >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >another valve. > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: > >From: via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 > > > >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: > >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >wrote: > > >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all the >time? > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 > > > > >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok check valve or such small thing. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > > > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >wrote: > >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I was >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? > > >Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 > > > >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined part to that. > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM > >Hi >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >not required. Brian, I used the >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >reamer for the bore. >regardsJames >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >wrote: >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >! I owe you much over the years >! Brian >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 > >Hi Brian, >I tend to use quite thick >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >Best, > >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >wrote: >Alec, James, I'm >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >particular function? Brian > >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >wrote: > >From: Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 > >Hi James, >I think >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >I've seen. >Best, >Alec >On >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >wrote: >Hi All Seeing as its a >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >ring? > >Anyway, here is my idea. It >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >on the top to help push the bar through. >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. > >If you get a >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >RegardsJames ? > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >_____ >___ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=_Personal_Submersibles at p subs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 03:07:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:07:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Jim, Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Keith, > >Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >of water. > >Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >at the top? > >We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >(1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >pressure condition. > >Best regards, >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >lungs. > > >Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. > > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> wrote: > >TEST!!! > >-----Original Message----- >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve > >How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if >it opens when submerged? > >Keith T > >via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > >>If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >>valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the >pressure >>differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >>opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >>the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >>it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >>Jim >> >> >>In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > writes: >> >> >>Jim, >> In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >>to make it open? >> >> >>Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >>an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >>another valve. >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >> >>From: via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >>To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 >> >> >> >>Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >>sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >>to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >>That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >>sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >>Jim >> >> >>In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > writes: >> >>It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >>builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >>normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >>time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. >> >>On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >> >> >>Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all >the >>time? >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 >> >> >> >> >>I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >>don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >>valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >>nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >>his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >>surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >>proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >>routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >>little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >>to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok >check valve or such small thing. >> >> >>Best, >> >>Alec >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >> >>Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >>section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I >was >>not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? >> >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: >> >>From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 >> >> >> >>personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >>weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined >part to that. >> This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >>Hank -------------------------------------------- >>On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM >> >>Hi >>Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >>push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >>say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >>not required. Brian, I used the >>5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >>plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >>reamer for the bore. >>regardsJames >>On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >>Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >>! I owe you much over the years >>! Brian >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 >> >>Hi Brian, >>I tend to use quite thick >>through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >>into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >>the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >>in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >>Best, >> >>Alec >>On >>Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Alec, James, I'm >>using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >>penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >>was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >>particular function? Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 >> >>Hi James, >>I think >>with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >>however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >>On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >>catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >>I've seen. >>Best, >>Alec >>On >>Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Hi All Seeing as its a >>bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >>have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >>Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >>believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >>ring? >> >>Anyway, here is my idea. It >>would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >>Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >>on the top to help push the bar through. >>(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. >> >>If you get a >>leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >>the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >>leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >>start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >>through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >>RegardsJames ? >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >>--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >>_____ >>___ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >>--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >>_____ >>___ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or >g_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=_Personal_Submersibles at p >subs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 06:00:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 06:00:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <14e0b433c1a-7b3f-735f@webprd-a96.mail.aol.com> Ken, It's a generous offer for your time. Count me in. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2015 9:00 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 07:50:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 07:50:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Keith, At 33 feet you would have to have double the atmospheric pressure inside the sub to have an over pressure situation (actually it would be equal at that point). Hopefully you would already be headed to the surface, and your OP valve would begin venting as you ascended and the water pressure decreased. To have an OP situation at that depth you would have to have a leak from your ballast air system or your oxygen system. If the exterior exit of the OP valve has a U bend to point downward, you should still have little if any water intrusion. Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 2:08:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? Keith T via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Keith, > >Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >of water. > >Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >at the top? > >We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >(1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >pressure condition. > >Best regards, >Jim > > >In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > >If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >lungs. > > >Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. > > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> wrote: > >TEST!!! > >-----Original Message----- >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve > >How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, if >it opens when submerged? > >Keith T > >via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: > >>If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >>valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the >pressure >>differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >>opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >>the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >>it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >>Jim >> >> >>In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > writes: >> >> >>Jim, >> In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >>to make it open? >> >> >>Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >>an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >>another valve. >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >> >>From: via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >>To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 >> >> >> >>Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >>sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >>to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >>That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >>sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >>Jim >> >> >>In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > writes: >> >>It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >>builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >>normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >>time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. >> >>On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >> >> >>Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all >the >>time? >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 >> >> >> >> >>I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >>don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >>valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >>nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >>his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >>surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >>proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >>routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >>little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >>to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok >check valve or such small thing. >> >> >>Best, >> >>Alec >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >> >>Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >>section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I >was >>not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? >> >> >>Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) wrote: >> >>From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 >> >> >> >>personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >>weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined >part to that. >> This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >>Hank -------------------------------------------- >>On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM >> >>Hi >>Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >>push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >>say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >>not required. Brian, I used the >>5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >>plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >>reamer for the bore. >>regardsJames >>On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >>Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >>! I owe you much over the years >>! Brian >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 >> >>Hi Brian, >>I tend to use quite thick >>through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >>into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >>the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >>in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >>Best, >> >>Alec >>On >>Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Alec, James, I'm >>using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >>penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >>was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >>particular function? Brian >> >>--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>wrote: >> >>From: Alec Smyth via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 >> >>Hi James, >>I think >>with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >>however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >>On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >>catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >>I've seen. >>Best, >>Alec >>On >>Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >>Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) ) > >>wrote: >>Hi All Seeing as its a >>bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >>have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >>Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >>believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >>ring? >> >>Anyway, here is my idea. It >>would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >>Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >>on the top to help push the bar through. >>(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. >> >>If you get a >>leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >>the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >>leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >>start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >>through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >>RegardsJames ? >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >>--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >>_____ >>___ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >>--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >>_____ >>___ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >> >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(mailto:_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >>(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.o r >g_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) ) >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 08:44:05 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 08:44:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Snoopy's valve is just a round plate welded into the coning tower shell, it's vertical. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Keith, > > Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more > experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There > have been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some > have installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the > horizontal portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap > or into a tube that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch > the small amount of water. > > Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits > at the top? > > We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero > (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at > anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure > situation to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how > severe that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause > an over pressure condition. > > Best regards, > Jim > > In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that > prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose > underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in > your lungs. > > Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually > while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to > equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:28 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve >> >> How do you keep water from going back down the valve, and into the sub, >> if it opens when submerged? >> >> Keith T >> >> via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >If the pressure differential exceeds the preset cracking pressure, the >> >valve will open on its own to relieve the excess pressure. If the >> pressure >> >differential is less than the cracking pressure, it would have to be >> >opened manually. If the differential were only slightly greater than >> >the preset cracking pressure, I suppose opening it manually would open >> >it wider for more rapid equalization on many types of valves. >> >Jim >> > >> > >> >In a message dated 6/18/2015 2:40:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> > >> > >> >Jim, >> > In that case is it necessary to bump the sealed check valve >> >to make it open? >> > >> > >> >Alec, I guess what I meant to say was if the check valve is left in >> >an open line to the outside all the time, rather than being isolated by >> >another valve. >> > >> >Brian >> > >> >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> > >> >From: via Personal_Submersibles >> >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:53:15 -0400 >> > >> > >> > >> >Brian, it also has to do with cracking pressure. When you surface the >> >sub might be slightly over pressure but not with enough differential >> >to open the valve automatically. That's when you open it manually. >> >That would also equalize pressure if you have negative pressure in the >> >sub to make it a whole lot easier to open the hatch. >> >Jim >> > >> > >> >In a message dated 6/18/2015 1:40:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> >personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> > >> >It is nothing but a T shape sealed by a spring. If internal pressure >> >builds up, it pushes the spring and the valve opens. So it is a >> >normally closed valve... but I suppose you could say its "open all the >> >time" in the sense that anytime pressure builds up, it will open. >> > >> >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >wrote: >> > >> > >> >Couldn't you, theoretically, have that valve open to the outside all >> the >> >time? >> > >> >Brian >> > >> >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >> > >> >From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:15:57 -0400 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >I think most have an OP valve, and I'd strongly encourage any who >> >don't to put one in. If you read Kittredge's book, the lack of an OP >> >valve was the cause of the only K-boat accident so far. Fortunately >> >nothing happened to him, but Kittredge had a slow cabin air leak during >> >his dive and upon surfacing blew out the dome when just below the >> >surface. He was blown out himself with it. The sub sank, and he >> >proceeded to re-float it without losing beat. I use the OP valve >> >routinely to equalize pressure so I can open the hatch easily. Just a >> >little push on the stem does it. One thing about OP valves, they have >> >to be capable of handling large flow rates. Don't use a little Swagelok >> check valve or such small thing. >> > >> > >> >Best, >> > >> >Alec >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >wrote: >> > >> >Also Alec, I noticed your check valve overpressure valve in the photo >> >section. That seems like a great solution to the problem! I guess I >> was >> >not aware of that, does everybody have one of those? >> > >> > >> >Brian >> > >> >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >> > >> >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 05:25:30 -0700 >> > >> > >> > >> >personally, I always avoid welding a machined part to the hull. I >> >weld a flange or nipple to the hull then bolt or thread the machined >> part to that. >> > This is my solution to a lack of tooling and expertise. >> >Hank -------------------------------------------- >> >On Thu, 6/18/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto: >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: >> > >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >Received: Thursday, June 18, 2015, 4:58 AM >> > >> >Hi >> >Alec\Brian, Yes, maybe it would >> >push in. A flat step would probably be better like you >> >say. But maybe im over thinking it as usual. Probably >> >not required. Brian, I used the >> >5\8ths bar because that's what was specified on the >> >plans. However, its also convenient for using a 16mm >> >reamer for the bore. >> >regardsJames >> >On 18 June 2015 at 03:04, >> >Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >wrote: >> >Oh cool ! Thanks Alec >> >! I owe you much over the years >> >! Brian >> >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >wrote: >> > >> >From: Alec Smyth via >> >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:40:56 -0400 >> > >> >Hi Brian, >> >I tend to use quite thick >> >through-hulls because its easier for me to machine the O-ring grooves >> >into the shaft than into the insert. In my case its just a matter of >> >the tooling I have on hand. If you have the tooling to put the grooves >> >in the insert, half an inch is fine for many applications. >> >Best, >> > >> >Alec >> >On >> >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >wrote: >> >Alec, James, I'm >> >using mostly 1/2" stainless rod through-out for most all of my hull >> >penetrations ( for valves and flaps) , I noticed in the example it >> >was a 5/8" rod, Why such a heavy duty thickness? Was that for a >> >particular function? Brian >> > >> >--- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >wrote: >> > >> >From: Alec Smyth via >> >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ><_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> >> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Idea..? >> >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:03:17 -0400 >> > >> >Hi James, >> >I think >> >with the taper, this would tend to push in and jam. The idea is neat, >> >however, and would probably work fine with a step instead of a taper. >> >On the other hand, does an O ring sealed through-hull ever fail >> >catastrophically? I've had the odd drip, but that's all I've bad as >> >I've seen. >> >Best, >> >Alec >> >On >> >Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:26 PM, James Frankland via >> >Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > >> >wrote: >> >Hi All Seeing as its a >> >bit quite I thought I would show this idea. Its super simple.... I >> >have been thinking how you could stop a leaking through hull. >> >Thinking of K boat type 5\8th through hulls as in the plans. I >> >believe Scott had a leak when he did his deep test due to a faulty O >> >ring? >> > >> >Anyway, here is my idea. It >> >would take a little bit more machining, but not much. >> >Machine the 5\8ths bar with a taper on the protruding part and a taper >> >on the top to help push the bar through. >> >(I did that on mine anyway). The handle is made with a cam type end. >> > >> >If you get a >> >leak, you can pull the handle up. The bar would be pulled up, forcing >> >the taper to jam into the penetrator, hopefully stopping most of the >> >leak. I suppose you could even machine a matching taper into the >> >start of the through hull to match? I suppose the bar could get pushed >> >through and jam on its own. That's a possibility. Pic attached. Kind >> >RegardsJames ? >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> > >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >--089e01183c9e6a94500518ba817f--_______________________________________ >> >_____ >> >___ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> > >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >--001a113f7c343925380518bcb506--_______________________________________ >> >_____ >> >___ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> > >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to= >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >_Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> >mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ >> >(mip://165d0460/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to= >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 13:12:03 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:12:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <55844D63.6020102@psubs.org> Sounds like a good project. Besides cooling, I think the next biggest concern would be power requirements. At 12vdc what would the amperage draw be? Can the electronics provide for variable output, say 3-10k lumens via a simple potentiometer? It's possible that 10k lumens could be more than what we need realistically. Requirements: 1) All you stated in your email 2) Variable output, 3-10k 3) Spotlight and floodlight designs for the reflector 4) Housing that allows for "EASY" oil compensation. I'll start a project page for it and we can update it as necessary. That way people won't have to parse through multiple emails to get all the info about it. Jon On 6/18/2015 8:59 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 13:35:21 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:35:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8288AC16-CD03-40D2-8B08-1ED8E070AD71@optonline.net> Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 13:41:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:41:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5584543D.6020009@psubs.org> Ken, Do you have a supplier for singles? Digikey and Newark show a minimum order of 50 for 28.22 each ($1400 +). The L-04 is 5000 lumens but can be bought singly for about $28. Jon On 6/18/2015 8:59 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 14:18:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 11:18:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Message-ID: <1434737925.5857.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 14:47:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8i?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 19 Jun 2015 18:47 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434737925.5857.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434737925.5857.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1Z61KP-30il040@fwd18.t-online.de> But a overpressure vale works full auto. A compressor not. A OPV needs no energy - but a compressor did. A OPV needs no room - but a compressor did. And a compressor is a noisy solution.. vbr Carsten "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. > The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 15:17:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:17:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <5584543D.6020009@psubs.org> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <5584543D.6020009@psubs.org> Message-ID: <002f01d0aac4$a748c360$f5da4a20$@cfl.rr.com> I ordered one each from Digikey for $28 and got it in hand. Don't know what I did different. I'll respond to the LED effort after a short wait to see the responses. Thanks, Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 1:41 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Ken, Do you have a supplier for singles? Digikey and Newark show a minimum order of 50 for 28.22 each ($1400 +). The L-04 is 5000 lumens but can be bought singly for about $28. Jon On 6/18/2015 8:59 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 15:58:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:58:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys handle it. I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving. It's not large enough to charge the tanks. I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that. A snorkel would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome. Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma. The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected. I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging. I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced. Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube. If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP). The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth. Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. Jim Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:09:16 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:09:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1Z61KP-30il040@fwd18.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1434744556.97213.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM But a overpressure vale works full auto. A compressor not.?? A OPV needs no energy - but a compressor did. A OPV needs no room - but a compressor did. And a compressor is a noisy solution.. vbr Carsten "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. > The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:16:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:16:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434744556.97213.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1Z61KP-30il040@fwd18.t-online.de> <1434744556.97213.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Agreed, > In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve > is safe, providing it is large enough. I have not seen an example of a > large enough OPV. A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just > need an umbrella :-) > The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome > on the sub :-) > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM > > But a overpressure vale works > full auto. A compressor > not. > > A OPV needs > no energy - but a compressor did. > > > A OPV needs no room - but > a compressor did. > > And a > compressor is > a noisy solution.. > > vbr > Carsten > > > > "hank > pronk via Personal_Submersibles" > schrieb: > > Personally I think an onboard > compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure > valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard > compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a > compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing > and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you > have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface > more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope > the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important > for subs with large domes. > > The next > benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you > surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is > small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. > Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, > I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor > to fill the ballast tanks. > > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:18:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:18:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434745116.67101.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, For me the heat is welcome since I do most of my diving in the winter, it could be a problem for the tropical crowd. Mind you, you would only use the compressor in an emergency. I put my compressor in for convenience, I can recharge my tanks in 10 min or so. Now that I have an external hp tank, it really is convenient. I usually recharge the hp tank in the shop where it is cool and I only pump in 500 psi at a time to keep the moisture down. I wonder if the DW's have an OPV Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 3:58 PM John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys?handle it.? I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving.? It's not large enough to charge the tanks.? I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that.? A snorkel?would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome.? Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. ? Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma.? The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected.? I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging.? I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. ? I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced.? Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube.? If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP).? The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth.? Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi?? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. ? Jim ? ? Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly.? Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home.? I was hoping Alec and some? others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now? happened.? There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the? past.? I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so? the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in? goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir.?? Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward? after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter? set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving.? If it indicates any pressure above? that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure? situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how? severe >> that will be.? We've also discussed various things that could cause? an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out,? and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose? >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in? your >> lungs.? >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open? manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced? to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via? Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original? Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ]? On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:19:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:19:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ?But a overpressure vale works ?full auto. A compressor ?not.?? ?A OPV needs ?no energy - but a compressor did. ?A OPV needs no room - but ?a compressor did. ?And a ?compressor is ?a noisy solution.. ?vbr ?Carsten ?"hank ?pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ?schrieb: ?> Personally I think an onboard ?compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ?valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard ?compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ?compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing ?and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you ?have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface ?more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope ?the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important ?for subs with large domes. ?> The next ?benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you ?surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is ?small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. ?Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, ?I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor ?to fill the ballast tanks. ?> Hank ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?? ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:31:35 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:31:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1434745895.20658.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Imagine how long it will take to equalize with a 1 or 2 lb pressure difference, better bring a lunch while your trying to hover at the perfect depth. :-) I can remove 1 psi over pressure in about 5 seconds Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:19 PM You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ?But a overpressure vale works ?full auto. A compressor ?not.?? ?A OPV needs ?no energy - but a compressor did. ?A OPV needs no room - but ?a compressor did. ?And a ?compressor is ?a noisy solution.. ?vbr ?Carsten ?"hank ?pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ?schrieb: ?> Personally I think an onboard ?compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ?valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard ?compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ?compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing ?and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you ?have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface ?more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope ?the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important ?for subs with large domes. ?> The next ?benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you ?surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is ?small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. ?Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, ?I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor ?to fill the ballast tanks. ?> Hank ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?? ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:41:37 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:41:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Message-ID: When you are a half foot below your OP depth, the automatic OPV knows it and stays shut; when you rise to a half foot above your OP depth, the OPV valve knows that and opens just long enough to re-equalize the pressure. It continues to do this as you ascend. Don't latch on to "half foot" as a standard. I only mean that as an example; it depends on the cracking pressure chosen. In reality, once the cracking differential is reached and the valve opens, you'll probably be ascending faster than the OPV is releasing internal pressure. That is, since the external water pressure is decreasing as you rise, the differential tends to increase unless the OPV can keep up with it. Hank, you're making a good point for having an adequately sized OPV. Guys, we have two different threads going on the same topic. Can we merge them? Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 3:16:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM But a overpressure vale works full auto. A compressor not. A OPV needs no energy - but a compressor did. A OPV needs no room - but a compressor did. And a compressor is a noisy solution.. vbr Carsten "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > schrieb: > Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. > The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 16:52:05 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:52:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434747125.54328.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Thank you, that is my point exactly. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:41 PM When you are a half foot below your OP depth, the automatic OPV knows it and stays shut; when you rise to a half foot above your OP depth, the OPV valve knows that and opens just long enough to re-equalize the pressure.? It continues to do this as you ascend.? Don't latch on to "half foot" as a standard.? I only mean that as an example; it depends on the cracking pressure chosen.? In reality, once the cracking differential is reached and the valve opens, you'll probably be ascending faster than the OPV is releasing internal pressure.? That is, since the external water pressure is decreasing as you rise, the differential tends to increase unless the OPV can keep up with it. ? Hank, you're making a good point for having an adequately sized OPV. ? Guys, we have two different threads going on the same topic.? Can we merge them? ? Jim ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 3:16:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ?But a overpressure vale works ?full auto. A compressor ?not.?? ?A OPV needs ?no energy - but a compressor did. ?A OPV needs no room - but ?a compressor did. ?And a ?compressor is ?a noisy solution.. ?vbr ?Carsten ?"hank ?pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ?schrieb: ?> Personally I think an onboard ?compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ?valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard ?compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ?compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing ?and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you ?have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface ?more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope ?the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important ?for subs with large domes. ?> The next ?benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you ?surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is ?small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. ?Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, ?I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor ?to fill the ballast tanks. ?> Hank ?> ?_______________________________________________ ?> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?> ?? ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:03:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 17:03:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh! Well I suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't take it any further than that just in case. BTW, on the subject of calculations and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation thread, you were right about the temperature change. The volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about the little stuff. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve > leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM > > I > don't get the "in the hands" part... its > completely automatic. > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > > > Agreed, > > In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over > pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. I > have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A simple > valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an > umbrella :-) > > The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means > keeping the dome on the sub :-) > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM > > > > But a overpressure vale works > > full auto. A compressor > > not. > > > > A OPV needs > > no energy - but a compressor did. > > > > > > A OPV needs no room - but > > a compressor did. > > > > And a > > compressor is > > a noisy solution.. > > > > vbr > > Carsten > > > > > > > > "hank > > pronk via Personal_Submersibles" > > schrieb: > > > Personally I think an onboard > > compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure > > valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an > onboard > > compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a > > compressor you can get rid of the pressure without > surfacing > > and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV > you > > have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then > surface > > more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and > hope > > the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more > important > > for subs with large domes. > > > The next > > benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, > you > > surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight > is > > small and I would also drop the thruster and tail > assembly. > > Still, not much sub out of the water. With the > compressor, > > I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the > compressor > > to fill the ballast tanks. > > > Hank > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:28:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:28:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434749323.10151.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM Oh! Well I suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't take it any further than that just in case. ?? BTW, on the subject of calculations and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation thread, you were right about the temperature change. The volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about the little stuff. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM ?I ?don't get the "in the hands" part... its ?completely automatic. ?On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at ?4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?Agreed, ?In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over ?pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I ?have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple ?valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an ?umbrella :-) ?The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means ?keeping the dome on the sub :-) ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ??Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ??To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ??Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ??But a overpressure vale works ??full auto. A compressor ??not.?? ??A OPV needs ??no energy - but a compressor did. ??A OPV needs no room - but ??a compressor did. ??And a ??compressor is ??a noisy solution.. ??vbr ??Carsten ??"hank ??pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ??schrieb: ??> Personally I think an onboard ??compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ??valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an ?onboard ??compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ??compressor you can get rid of the pressure without ?surfacing ??and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV ?you ??have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then ?surface ??more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and ?hope ??the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more ?important ??for subs with large domes. ??> The next ??benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, ?you ??surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight ?is ??small and I would also drop the thruster and tail ?assembly. ??Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the ?compressor, ??I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the ?compressor ??to fill the ballast tanks. ??> Hank ??> ??_______________________________________________ ??> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??> ??? ??-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ??_______________________________________________ ??Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:36:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 09:36:01 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> Hi Ken, Sounds great. I have a couple of housings. I could send you drawings. What is your email offline. Cheers, Hugh. hfulton at q-subs.com -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:37:31 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 09:37:31 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <55848b6d.6486440a.86c3.1855@mx.google.com> By the way what is the output and specs on Cliff's. He has done something already. -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:42:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 21:42:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78044548.2518740.1434750158297.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Jim,>>>?If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.?? ?No 40ft.?Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys?handle it.? I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving.? It's not large enough to charge the tanks.? I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that.? A snorkel?would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome.? Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention.?Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma.? The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected.? I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging.? I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions.?I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced.? Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube.? If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP).? The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth.? Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi?? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must.?Jim??Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly.? Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home.? I was hoping Alec and some? others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now? happened.? There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the? past.? I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so? the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in? goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir.?? Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward? after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter? set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving.? If it indicates any pressure above? that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure? situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how? severe >> that will be.? We've also discussed various things that could cause? an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out,? and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose? >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in? your >> lungs.? >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open? manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced? to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via? Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original? Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ]? On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 17:48:54 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 17:48:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434749323.10151.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434749323.10151.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <568F3DFA-72A4-4DF5-B366-12DC18B0A69F@gmail.com> No, it's the other way around - my issue was caused by the motors getting cold. I put the oil in on a hot VA day, it was 90-95 degrees. At depth the water was at 42 degrees, so about a 50 degree difference. Contraction of the oil at depth was greater than the puny 10ml hose volume, and we were beyond the pressure rating of the lip seals so the motor sucked in water. Then upon return to the surface, the air bubble in the motor stored the pressure and pushed oil back out. Of course you could also have the issue if you fill the motor cold and it gets hot, such as from running it out of the water or something. > On Jun 19, 2015, at 5:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, > At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) > I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM > > Oh! Well I > suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. > This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done > but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty > huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface > very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we > dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an > over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs > trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know > Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't > take it any further than that just in case. > BTW, on the subject of calculations > and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation > thread, you were right about the temperature change. The > volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal > contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown > size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone > and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only > has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of > the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of > the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate > even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now > installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, > with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that > should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an > engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be > negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items > like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about > the little stuff. > Best, > Alec > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while > the valve leaks out the > air.-------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM > > > > I > > don't get the "in the hands" part... its > > completely automatic. > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > > 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Agreed, > > > > In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an > over > > pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. > I > > have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A > simple > > valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an > > umbrella :-) > > > > The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it > means > > keeping the dome on the sub :-) > > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > > > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM > > > > > > > > But a overpressure vale works > > > > full auto. A compressor > > > > not. > > > > > > > > A OPV needs > > > > no energy - but a compressor did. > > > > > > > > > > > > A OPV needs no room - but > > > > a compressor did. > > > > > > > > And a > > > > compressor is > > > > a noisy solution.. > > > > > > > > vbr > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "hank > > > > pronk via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > schrieb: > > > > > Personally I think an onboard > > > > compressor is a much safer option than an over > pressure > > > > valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an > > onboard > > > > compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a > > > > compressor you can get rid of the pressure without > > surfacing > > > > and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the > OPV > > you > > > > have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then > > surface > > > > more and wait and so on. You can't just surface > and > > hope > > > > the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more > > important > > > > for subs with large domes. > > > > > The next > > > > benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, > > you > > > > surface by dropping your weight. In my case the > weight > > is > > > > small and I would also drop the thruster and tail > > assembly. > > > > Still, not much sub out of the water. With the > > compressor, > > > > I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the > > compressor > > > > to fill the ballast tanks. > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 18:02:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 22:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Ken,I am keen on the idea & have ordered a number of cheap led lights, torches &outdoor lights in past years, with view to making something up.Have had a surprizing number of failures with cheap led dive lights & torches,so something built of good components that is reliable would be great.I have posted this before, but there are a huge amount of lamps, reflectors, leds,lenses & o-rings on Deal Extreme. You have to hunt through the spares section.http://www.dx.com/c/lights-lighting-1399 I have been looking at bare alluminium housings that I can hard anodize. Maybejust cut an o-ring grove in & oil compensate by fitting a hose barb connector &?plastic oil filled tubing around the wire run. This is how they do it on the "Dual Deep Worker".? ?I seem to remember them saying they used an oval plastic tube (could be wrong)but this would be in line with our previous thread on crush pressure of round plasticThis could be an interesting project.Thanks Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Hi Ken,? Sounds great. I have a couple of housings.? I could send you drawings.? What is your email offline. Cheers, Hugh. hfulton at q-subs.com -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think?? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 18:31:23 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:31:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Message-ID: I never thought of running the compressor to relieve OP, but it makes a lot of sence (can't believe I missed that one). On a large "boat" the snort is a great OP valve. John, is 765 your project? If so, I'd love to chat with you off post as I have interest in how that project is progressing along with many, many questions. Keith T Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >No, it's the other way around - my issue was caused by the motors getting cold. I put the oil in on a hot VA day, it was 90-95 degrees. At depth the water was at 42 degrees, so about a 50 degree difference. Contraction of the oil at depth was greater than the puny 10ml hose volume, and we were beyond the pressure rating of the lip seals so the motor sucked in water. Then upon return to the surface, the air bubble in the motor stored the pressure and pushed oil back out. > >Of course you could also have the issue if you fill the motor cold and it gets hot, such as from running it out of the water or something. > > > >> On Jun 19, 2015, at 5:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Alec, >> At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) >> I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM >> >> Oh! Well I >> suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. >> This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done >> but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty >> huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface >> very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we >> dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an >> over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs >> trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know >> Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't >> take it any further than that just in case. >> BTW, on the subject of calculations >> and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation >> thread, you were right about the temperature change. The >> volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal >> contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown >> size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone >> and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only >> has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of >> the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of >> the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate >> even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now >> installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, >> with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that >> should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an >> engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be >> negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items >> like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about >> the little stuff. >> Best, >> Alec >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at >> 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while >> the valve leaks out the >> air.-------------------------------------------- >> >> On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve >> >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM >> >> >> >> I >> >> don't get the "in the hands" part... its >> >> completely automatic. >> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at >> >> 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Agreed, >> >> >> >> In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an >> over >> >> pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. >> I >> >> have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A >> simple >> >> valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an >> >> umbrella :-) >> >> >> >> The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it >> means >> >> keeping the dome on the sub :-) >> >> >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via >> >> Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve >> >> >> >> To: "Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> >> Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But a overpressure vale works >> >> >> >> full auto. A compressor >> >> >> >> not. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A OPV needs >> >> >> >> no energy - but a compressor did. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A OPV needs no room - but >> >> >> >> a compressor did. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And a >> >> >> >> compressor is >> >> >> >> a noisy solution.. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> vbr >> >> >> >> Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "hank >> >> >> >> pronk via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> >> schrieb: >> >> >> >> > Personally I think an onboard >> >> >> >> compressor is a much safer option than an over >> pressure >> >> >> >> valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an >> >> onboard >> >> >> >> compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a >> >> >> >> compressor you can get rid of the pressure without >> >> surfacing >> >> >> >> and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the >> OPV >> >> you >> >> >> >> have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then >> >> surface >> >> >> >> more and wait and so on. You can't just surface >> and >> >> hope >> >> >> >> the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more >> >> important >> >> >> >> for subs with large domes. >> >> >> >> > The next >> >> >> >> benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, >> >> you >> >> >> >> surface by dropping your weight. In my case the >> weight >> >> is >> >> >> >> small and I would also drop the thruster and tail >> >> assembly. >> >> >> >> Still, not much sub out of the water. With the >> >> compressor, >> >> >> >> I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the >> >> compressor >> >> >> >> to fill the ballast tanks. >> >> >> >> > Hank >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >> >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 19:15:37 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:15:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Message-ID: <20150619161537.DADC5A4@m0048140.ppops.net> I found a really nice 1" SS spring check valve that I think would work really nicely as an OP valve, the spring is so light that the differential would be next to nothing. I also looked at an interesting ball bearing check valve that works on just gravity, which would work as well, but it wasn't SS. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:28:43 -0700 Alec, At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM Oh! Well I suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't take it any further than that just in case. ?? BTW, on the subject of calculations and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation thread, you were right about the temperature change. The volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about the little stuff. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM ?I ?don't get the "in the hands" part... its ?completely automatic. ?On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at ?4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?Agreed, ?In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over ?pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I ?have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple ?valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an ?umbrella :-) ?The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means ?keeping the dome on the sub :-) ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ??Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ??To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ??Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ??But a overpressure vale works ??full auto. A compressor ??not.?? ??A OPV needs ??no energy - but a compressor did. ??A OPV needs no room - but ??a compressor did. ??And a ??compressor is ??a noisy solution.. ??vbr ??Carsten ??"hank ??pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ??schrieb: ??> Personally I think an onboard ??compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ??valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an ?onboard ??compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ??compressor you can get rid of the pressure without ?surfacing ??and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV ?you ??have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then ?surface ??more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and ?hope ??the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more ?important ??for subs with large domes. ??> The next ??benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, ?you ??surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight ?is ??small and I would also drop the thruster and tail ?assembly. ??Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the ?compressor, ??I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the ?compressor ??to fill the ballast tanks. ??> Hank ??> ??_______________________________________________ ??> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??> ??? ??-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ??_______________________________________________ ??Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 20:03:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 00:03:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <20150619161537.DADC5A4@m0048140.ppops.net> References: <20150619161537.DADC5A4@m0048140.ppops.net> Message-ID: <982662893.2628215.1434758635435.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Any link to it Brian?I think Emile posted his over pressure valve design at one time.It has a plunger for manually releasing the last bit of pressure.With a bit of thought you could incorporate a snorkel system &circulate air around the hull through it.Another thought is to use Vance's Top Hat valve design for ballast tanks,& use a weak spring.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve I found a really nice 1" SS spring check valve that I think would work really nicely as an OP valve, the spring is so light that the differential would be next to nothing.? I also looked at an interesting ball bearing check valve that works on just gravity, which would work as well, but it wasn't SS. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:28:43 -0700 Alec, At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use.? I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with.? I am ready to test that part.? Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM Oh! Well I suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't take it any further than that just in case. ?? BTW, on the subject of calculations and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation thread, you were right about the temperature change. The volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about the little stuff. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM ?I ?don't get the "in the hands" part... its ?completely automatic. ?On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at ?4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ?Agreed, ?In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over ?pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough.? I ?have not seen an example of a large enough OPV.? A simple ?valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an ?umbrella :-) ?The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means ?keeping the dome on the sub :-) ?Hank-------------------------------------------- ?On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via ?Personal_Submersibles ?wrote: ??Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve ??To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ??Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM ??But a overpressure vale works ??full auto. A compressor ??not.?? ??A OPV needs ??no energy - but a compressor did. ??A OPV needs no room - but ??a compressor did. ??And a ??compressor is ??a noisy solution.. ??vbr ??Carsten ??"hank ??pronk via Personal_Submersibles" ??schrieb: ??> Personally I think an onboard ??compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure ??valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an ?onboard ??compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a ??compressor you can get rid of the pressure without ?surfacing ??and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV ?you ??have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then ?surface ??more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and ?hope ??the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more ?important ??for subs with large domes. ??> The next ??benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, ?you ??surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight ?is ??small and I would also drop the thruster and tail ?assembly. ??Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the ?compressor, ??I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the ?compressor ??to fill the ballast tanks. ??> Hank ??> ??_______________________________________________ ??> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??> ??? ??-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ??_______________________________________________ ??Personal_Submersibles mailing list ??Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ??http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 20:52:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 20:52:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure. That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm. I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were 0.0 psi. Right? Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>> If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. No 40ft. Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys handle it. I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving. It's not large enough to charge the tanks. I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that. A snorkel would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome. Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma. The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected. I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging. I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced. Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube. If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP). The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth. Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. Jim Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 21:09:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:09:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, On the DW lights, Phil uses a flexable lense so it compresses as necessary if any there was any air in the alum housing. I am doing the same thing and the cables are a subconn design so no compensation is necessary for them. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ken, > I am keen on the idea & have ordered a number of cheap led lights, torches > & > outdoor lights in past years, with view to making something up. > Have had a surprizing number of failures with cheap led dive lights & > torches, > so something built of good components that is reliable would be great. > I have posted this before, but there are a huge amount of lamps, > reflectors, leds, > lenses & o-rings on Deal Extreme. You have to hunt through the spares > section. > http://www.dx.com/c/lights-lighting-1399 > I have been looking at bare alluminium housings that I can hard anodize. > Maybe > just cut an o-ring grove in & oil compensate by fitting a hose barb > connector & > plastic oil filled tubing around the wire run. This is how they do it on > the "Dual Deep Worker". > I seem to remember them saying they used an oval plastic tube (could be > wrong) > but this would be in line with our previous thread on crush pressure of > round plastic > This could be an interesting project. > Thanks Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:36 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights > > Hi Ken, > Sounds great. > I have a couple of housings. I could send you drawings. What is your > email offline. > Cheers, Hugh. > hfulton at q-subs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights > > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the > Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little > over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as > 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come > up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any > selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only > cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail > most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 > lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over > current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above > water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the > lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design > process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 21:11:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:11:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Message-ID: <20150619181117.DAB857F@m0048136.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 21:33:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 21:33:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57680845-3DA9-4BD4-AE82-A247AB5F031B@optonline.net> Hi Keith: 765 is my project, I will be giving a update on the build at the convention next week. You can reach me off list at subvet596 at optonline.net John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 6:31 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I never thought of running the compressor to relieve OP, but it makes a lot of sence (can't believe I missed that one). On a large "boat" the snort is a great OP valve. > > John, is 765 your project? If so, I'd love to chat with you off post as I have interest in how that project is progressing along with many, many questions. > > Keith T > > Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> No, it's the other way around - my issue was caused by the motors getting cold. I put the oil in on a hot VA day, it was 90-95 degrees. At depth the water was at 42 degrees, so about a 50 degree difference. Contraction of the oil at depth was greater than the puny 10ml hose volume, and we were beyond the pressure rating of the lip seals so the motor sucked in water. Then upon return to the surface, the air bubble in the motor stored the pressure and pushed oil back out. >> >> Of course you could also have the issue if you fill the motor cold and it gets hot, such as from running it out of the water or something. >> >> >> >>> On Jun 19, 2015, at 5:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alec, >>> At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) >>> I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( >>> Hank-------------------------------------------- >>> On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM >>> >>> Oh! Well I >>> suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. >>> This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done >>> but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty >>> huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface >>> very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we >>> dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an >>> over-pressure From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 21:39:07 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 01:39:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1437868874.2702965.1434764347607.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jim,as you were talking of pressures in a range outside ofthat of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking?about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular.That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:)Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan,I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure.? That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and?water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm.? ? I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were?0.0 psi.? Right?Jim??In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>>?If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? ? ?No 40ft.? Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys?handle it.? I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving.? It's not large enough to charge the tanks.? I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that.? A snorkel?would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome.? Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. ? Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma.? The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected.? I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging.? I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. ? I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced.? Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube.? If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP).? The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth.? Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi?? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. ? Jim ? ? Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly.? Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home.? I was hoping Alec and some? others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now? happened.? There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the? past.? I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so? the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in? goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir.?? Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward? after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter? set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving.? If it indicates any pressure above? that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure? situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how? severe >> that will be.? We've also discussed various things that could cause? an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out,? and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose? >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in? your >> lungs.? >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open? manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced? to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via? Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original? Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ]? On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 21:58:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 21:58:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Yup, Alan, that's me. I'm using Psubs vernacular as in a 1ATM sub having an internal pressure equal to sea level pressure or 1ATM or 14.7 psi (absolute pressure). You're using the vernacular I use when I'm airing up the tires on my trailer and say I have 32 psi in the tire (tyre to you). In that conversation we're referring to differential or gauge pressure. Since your vessel is an ambient, I can where the confusion would come in. Now about you guys in NZ having winter in the middle of summer... JT In a message dated 6/19/2015 8:42:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, as you were talking of pressures in a range outside of that of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular. That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:) Cheers Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure. That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm. I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were 0.0 psi. Right? Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>> If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. No 40ft. Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys handle it. I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving. It's not large enough to charge the tanks. I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that. A snorkel would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome. Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma. The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected. I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging. I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced. Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube. If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP). The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth. Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. Jim Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 22:42:24 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 02:42:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <831008525.2658100.1434768144536.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jim,it's a confusing way of looking at it.If I say that my overpressure valve has a 1psi cracking pressure, everyone knowswhat I am talking about. If I say it has a 15.7psi cracking pressure (1 atm + 1psi)everybody is going to think I am going to blow my dome off before I relieve pressure.You are Americanizing this too much & need to get back to basic Queens English.I'll have my pressure gauge set at 0 not 14.7 as it will confuse things.It's pretty wet here over the Winter. The last 2 years I've escaped to Thailand forDental work & lots of snorkeling. There are some mind blowing snorkeling / diving spots there.p.s. Are your tyres feeling flat? :) Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Yup, Alan, that's me.? I'm using Psubs vernacular as in a 1ATM sub having an internal pressure equal to sea level pressure or 1ATM or 14.7 psi (absolute pressure).? You're using the vernacular?I use when I'm airing up the tires on my trailer and say I have 32 psi in the tire (tyre to you).? In that conversation we're referring to differential or gauge pressure.? Since your vessel is an ambient, I can where the confusion would come in.?Now about you guys in NZ having winter in the middle of summer...?JT?In a message dated 6/19/2015 8:42:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, as you were talking of pressures in a range outside of that of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking? about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular. That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:) Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure.? That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and?water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm.? ? I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were?0.0 psi.? Right? Jim? ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>>?If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? ? ?No 40ft.? Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys?handle it.? I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving.? It's not large enough to charge the tanks.? I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that.? A snorkel?would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome.? Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. ? Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma.? The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected.? I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging.? I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. ? I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced.? Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube.? If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP).? The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth.? Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi?? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. ? Jim ? ? Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly.? Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home.? I was hoping Alec and some? others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now? happened.? There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the? past.? I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so? the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in? goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir.?? Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward? after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter? set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving.? If it indicates any pressure above? that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure? situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how? severe >> that will be.? We've also discussed various things that could cause? an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out,? and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose? >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in? your >> lungs.? >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open? manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced? to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via? Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original? Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ]? On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 23:21:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 23:21:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Hi Alan, Cracking pressure only relates to the pressure differential from one side of the valve to the other. There's no relevance to absolute pressure. Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 9:45:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, it's a confusing way of looking at it. If I say that my overpressure valve has a 1psi cracking pressure, everyone knows what I am talking about. If I say it has a 15.7psi cracking pressure (1 atm + 1psi) everybody is going to think I am going to blow my dome off before I relieve pressure. You are Americanizing this too much & need to get back to basic Queens English. I'll have my pressure gauge set at 0 not 14.7 as it will confuse things. It's pretty wet here over the Winter. The last 2 years I've escaped to Thailand for Dental work & lots of snorkeling. There are some mind blowing snorkeling / diving spots there. p.s. Are your tyres feeling flat? :) Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Yup, Alan, that's me. I'm using Psubs vernacular as in a 1ATM sub having an internal pressure equal to sea level pressure or 1ATM or 14.7 psi (absolute pressure). You're using the vernacular I use when I'm airing up the tires on my trailer and say I have 32 psi in the tire (tyre to you). In that conversation we're referring to differential or gauge pressure. Since your vessel is an ambient, I can where the confusion would come in. Now about you guys in NZ having winter in the middle of summer... JT In a message dated 6/19/2015 8:42:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, as you were talking of pressures in a range outside of that of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular. That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:) Cheers Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure. That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm. I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were 0.0 psi. Right? Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>> If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. No 40ft. Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys handle it. I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving. It's not large enough to charge the tanks. I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that. A snorkel would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome. Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma. The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected. I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging. I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced. Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube. If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP). The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth. Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. Jim Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 19 23:57:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 03:57:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214935114.2716202.1434772632538.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> OK,?as a group, do we have to designate psig or psia to be on the same page.In some industries if there is no designation it is assumed to be psig, (gauge) whereasin other industries it is assumed to be psia (absolute). & we are using guages (psig)& barometers (that show a negative pressure relative to our 1 atm).Is their a nautical or submarine standard? Does anyone else have an opinion on this?Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan,Cracking pressure only relates to the pressure differential from one side of the valve to the other.? There's no relevance to absolute pressure.Jim?In a message dated 6/19/2015 9:45:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, it's a confusing way of looking at it. If I say that my overpressure valve has a 1psi cracking pressure, everyone knows what I am talking about. If I say it has a 15.7psi cracking pressure (1 atm + 1psi) everybody is going to think I am going to blow my dome off before I relieve pressure. You are Americanizing this too much & need to get back to basic Queens English. I'll have my pressure gauge set at 0 not 14.7 as it will confuse things. It's pretty wet here over the Winter. The last 2 years I've escaped to Thailand for Dental work & lots of snorkeling. There are some mind blowing snorkeling / diving spots there. p.s. Are your tyres feeling flat? :) Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Yup, Alan, that's me.? I'm using Psubs vernacular as in a 1ATM sub having an internal pressure equal to sea level pressure or 1ATM or 14.7 psi (absolute pressure).? You're using the vernacular?I use when I'm airing up the tires on my trailer and say I have 32 psi in the tire (tyre to you).? In that conversation we're referring to differential or gauge pressure.? Since your vessel is an ambient, I can where the confusion would come in. ? Now about you guys in NZ having winter in the middle of summer... ? JT ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 8:42:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, as you were talking of pressures in a range outside of that of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking? about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular. That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:) Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure.? That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and?water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm.? ? I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were?0.0 psi.? Right? Jim? ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>>?If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? ? ?No 40ft.? Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys?handle it.? I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving.? It's not large enough to charge the tanks.? I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that.? A snorkel?would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome.? Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. ? Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma.? The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected.? I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging.? I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. ? I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced.? Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube.? If the?air pressure inside?your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface.? Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP).? The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth.? Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi?? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. ? Jim ? ? Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve.? There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy.? With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent.? With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight.? In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly.? Still, not much sub out of the water.? With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home.? I was hoping Alec and some? others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now? happened.? There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the? past.? I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so? the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in? goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir.?? Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward? after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter? set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving.? If it indicates any pressure above? that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure? situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how? severe >> that will be.? We've also discussed various things that could cause? an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out,? and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose? >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in? your >> lungs.? >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open? manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced? to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via? Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original? Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ]? On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 06:52:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8i?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 20 Jun 2015 10:52 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434745185.49282.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1Z6GO7-1tOVWq0@fwd32.t-online.de> Most time the OPV akts on the surface to equalize the small pressure difference before you unlock the hatch. Just to safe your ear drums on a long term. On Euronaut we have a normal manual ball vale in the hatch to do so. You are right on Euronut a overpressure vale will be a really huge think. Its not installed for this reason - instead two large compressors. But the hatch of Euronaut has heavy hinges and locking device and can handle some overpressure. But for 1-3 men sub the OVP is the much better solution. "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > > You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM > > I > don't get the "in the hands" part... its > completely automatic. > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Agreed, > > In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over > pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. I > have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A simple > valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an > umbrella :-) > > The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means > keeping the dome on the sub :-) > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM > > > > But a overpressure vale works > > full auto. A compressor > > not. > > > > A OPV needs > > no energy - but a compressor did. > > > > > > A OPV needs no room - but > > a compressor did. > > > > And a > > compressor is > > a noisy solution.. > > > > vbr > > Carsten > > > > > > > > "hank > > pronk via Personal_Submersibles" > > schrieb: > > > Personally I think an onboard > > compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure > > valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an > onboard > > compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a > > compressor you can get rid of the pressure without > surfacing > > and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV > you > > have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then > surface > > more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and > hope > > the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more > important > > for subs with large domes. > > > The next > > benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, > you > > surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight > is > > small and I would also drop the thruster and tail > assembly. > > Still, not much sub out of the water. With the > compressor, > > I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the > compressor > > to fill the ballast tanks. > > > Hank > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 07:08:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNhcnN0ZW4gU3RhbmRmdd8i?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: 20 Jun 2015 11:08 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <568F3DFA-72A4-4DF5-B366-12DC18B0A69F@gmail.com> References: <1434749323.10151.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <568F3DFA-72A4-4DF5-B366-12DC18B0A69F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1Z6GdF-1pVtjc0@fwd36.t-online.de> A hose of 10 ml is to small you need a compensation back to handle the temp.& volume change . "Private via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > No, it's the other way around - my issue was caused by the motors getting cold. I put the oil in on a hot VA day, it was 90-95 degrees. At depth the water was at 42 degrees, so about a 50 degree difference. Contraction of the oil at depth was greater than the puny 10ml hose volume, and we were beyond the pressure rating of the lip seals so the motor sucked in water. Then upon return to the surface, the air bubble in the motor stored the pressure and pushed oil back out. Of course you could also have the issue if you fill the motor cold and it gets hot, such as from running it out of the water or something. > On Jun 19, 2015, at 5:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, > At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) > I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM > > Oh! Well I > suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. > This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done > but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty > huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface > very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we > dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an > over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs > trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know > Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't > take it any further than that just in case. > BTW, on the subject of calculations > and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation > thread, you were right about the temperature change. The > volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal > contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown > size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone > and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only > has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of > the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of > the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate > even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now > installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, > with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that > should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an > engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be > negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items > like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about > the little stuff. > Best, > Alec > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while > the valve leaks out the > air.-------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM > > > > I > > don't get the "in the hands" part... its > > completely automatic. > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at > > 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Agreed, > > > > In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an > over > > pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. > I > > have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A > simple > > valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an > > umbrella :-) > > > > The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it > means > > keeping the dome on the sub :-) > > > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > > > On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via > > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve > > > > To: "Personal Submersibles General > Discussion" > > > > > > Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM > > > > > > > > But a overpressure vale works > > > > full auto. A compressor > > > > not. > > > > > > > > A OPV needs > > > > no energy - but a compressor did. > > > > > > > > > > > > A OPV needs no room - but > > > > a compressor did. > > > > > > > > And a > > > > compressor is > > > > a noisy solution.. > > > > > > > > vbr > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "hank > > > > pronk via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > schrieb: > > > > > Personally I think an onboard > > > > compressor is a much safer option than an over > pressure > > > > valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an > > onboard > > > > compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a > > > > compressor you can get rid of the pressure without > > surfacing > > > > and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the > OPV > > you > > > > have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then > > surface > > > > more and wait and so on. You can't just surface > and > > hope > > > > the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more > > important > > > > for subs with large domes. > > > > > The next > > > > benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, > > you > > > > surface by dropping your weight. In my case the > weight > > is > > > > small and I would also drop the thruster and tail > > assembly. > > > > Still, not much sub out of the water. With the > > compressor, > > > > I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the > > compressor > > > > to fill the ballast tanks. > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 09:47:23 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 09:47:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Message-ID: Alan, I'll bring it up at the convention next week during the open forum and see what everyone thinks. I've always used absolute in this context because I'm referring to a 1ATM sub and by inference consider the pressure in the sub to be 1ATM. However I might be out of step with the way others reference it. I can understand referring to the pressure differential at 33' as 1ATM; I'm just accustomed to referring to the absolute pressure. Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 11:00:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: OK, as a group, do we have to designate psig or psia to be on the same page. In some industries if there is no designation it is assumed to be psig, (gauge) whereas in other industries it is assumed to be psia (absolute). & we are using guages (psig) & barometers (that show a negative pressure relative to our 1 atm). Is their a nautical or submarine standard? Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, Cracking pressure only relates to the pressure differential from one side of the valve to the other. There's no relevance to absolute pressure. Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 9:45:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, it's a confusing way of looking at it. If I say that my overpressure valve has a 1psi cracking pressure, everyone knows what I am talking about. If I say it has a 15.7psi cracking pressure (1 atm + 1psi) everybody is going to think I am going to blow my dome off before I relieve pressure. You are Americanizing this too much & need to get back to basic Queens English. I'll have my pressure gauge set at 0 not 14.7 as it will confuse things. It's pretty wet here over the Winter. The last 2 years I've escaped to Thailand for Dental work & lots of snorkeling. There are some mind blowing snorkeling / diving spots there. p.s. Are your tyres feeling flat? :) Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Yup, Alan, that's me. I'm using Psubs vernacular as in a 1ATM sub having an internal pressure equal to sea level pressure or 1ATM or 14.7 psi (absolute pressure). You're using the vernacular I use when I'm airing up the tires on my trailer and say I have 32 psi in the tire (tyre to you). In that conversation we're referring to differential or gauge pressure. Since your vessel is an ambient, I can where the confusion would come in. Now about you guys in NZ having winter in the middle of summer... JT In a message dated 6/19/2015 8:42:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim, as you were talking of pressures in a range outside of that of a normal barometer, it was assumed that you were talking about a normal pressure gauge reading & using standard vernacular. That's Jim Todd isn't it. I don't want to get too cheeky with the wrong person:) Cheers Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve Hi Alan, I'm speaking in terms of absolute pressure. That is, pressure at the surface being 14.7 psi or 1 atm and water pressure at 33 feet deep being 2 atm. I think you're speaking comparatively as though air pressure at the surface were 0.0 psi. Right? Jim In a message dated 6/19/2015 4:46:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Jim, >>> If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. No 40ft. Alan ____________________________________ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Over Pressure Valve John, I hadn't given much thought lately to how the Big Boys handle it. I've planned to have a small, onboard compressor, but its purpose is to create under-pressure to seal the domes prior to diving. It's not large enough to charge the tanks. I'm depending on a portable compressor dockside or on the support boat for that. A snorkel would be nice even if it extends just two feet above the hatch or dome. Looking forward to the update on your 65-footer at the convention. Hank, that's definitely a sweet setup you have on Gamma. The compressor recharged the tanks much more quickly than I expected. I don't recall how low you let them get before recharging. I don't expect to have room onboard, and the heat generated would be something of a negative in semitropical conditions. I wish I knew what the pressure differential was that Captain K. experienced. Apparently it was small enough that he wasn't aware of it and yet significant enough to convert his coming tower into a personnel launch tube. If the air pressure inside your sub rose to 20 psi or about 1.33 atm, you would reach equal pressure when you got within 11 feet of the surface. Any depth greater than that and the outside pressure would still be greater than the inside pressure (no OP). The point being that you would have to have a lot of excess interior pressure to experience OP at a significant depth. Wouldn't your ears tell you if you got as high as 20 psi? Monitoring and alarm systems are a must. Jim Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles In a message dated 6/19/2015 12:35:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Jim: On the boat if their was an positive pressure while submerged at depth we started the air compressor and charge the air banks. The other option was to raise the snorkel to equalize before opening the hatch. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:07 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > > Thanks for the mental diagram, that helps imensely. Does any one know how the big boys, navy subs, deal with over pressure? Has any one had their OP valve open at depth and if so how much water came in? > > Keith T > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Keith, >> >> Sorry, I just got home. I was hoping Alec and some others with more >> experience than I have would chime in as I see has now happened. There have >> been some good discussions on OP valves in the past. I think some have >> installed a T (on its side) inside the sub so the air enters the horizontal >> portion, and any water that comes in goes down to a small trap or into a tube >> that leads to a reservoir. Others just use a rag to catch the small amount >> of water. >> >> Alec, does the OP on the exterior of Snoopy point downward after it exits >> at the top? >> >> We've also discussed having an air pressure gauge or altimeter set to zero >> (1 atm) before diving. If it indicates any pressure above that level at >> anytime during your dive, you'll know you'll have an over pressure situation >> to deal with as you surface and you'll have an indication of how severe >> that will be. We've also discussed various things that could cause an over >> pressure condition. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:09:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> If it opens when submerged, it is because air is on the way out, and that >> prevents water from coming in. Its like blowing through your nose >> underwater, your nose is open but if you're blowing, you don't get water in your >> lungs. >> >> >> Certainly you do get a little water in if you push the valve open manually >> while submerged, as a test. Or a few drops if you do so when surfaced to >> equalize, as the valve is all wet. But its nothing much. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >>> wrote: >> >> TEST!!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:_personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org) ] On Behalf Of via >> Personal_Submersib _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 12:12:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:12:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01d0ab73$eb3915c0$c1ab4140$@cfl.rr.com> To all that responded. On the LED Lights. I?ve got enough to start on the specification. I?ll be out of town this next week but soon after the 4th of July I?ll have a rough draft ready to look at. It should answer some questions and pose other questions. Thanks for the inputs. We need the spec to get what works and is applicable. Ken Martindale From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 9:09 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Hi Alan, On the DW lights, Phil uses a flexable lense so it compresses as necessary if any there was any air in the alum housing. I am doing the same thing and the cables are a subconn design so no compensation is necessary for them. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Ken, I am keen on the idea & have ordered a number of cheap led lights, torches & outdoor lights in past years, with view to making something up. Have had a surprizing number of failures with cheap led dive lights & torches, so something built of good components that is reliable would be great. I have posted this before, but there are a huge amount of lamps, reflectors, leds, lenses & o-rings on Deal Extreme. You have to hunt through the spares section. http://www.dx.com/c/lights-lighting-1399 I have been looking at bare alluminium housings that I can hard anodize. Maybe just cut an o-ring grove in & oil compensate by fitting a hose barb connector & plastic oil filled tubing around the wire run. This is how they do it on the "Dual Deep Worker". I seem to remember them saying they used an oval plastic tube (could be wrong) but this would be in line with our previous thread on crush pressure of round plastic This could be an interesting project. Thanks Alan _____ From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Hi Ken, Sounds great. I have a couple of housings. I could send you drawings. What is your email offline. Cheers, Hugh. hfulton at q-subs.com -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights Any one there, I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. Not too interested in doing this commercially. For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. Ken Martindale _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 12:27:03 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 09:27:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project Message-ID: <1434817623.90214.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My next project is not a submarine, I have enough! I need a good solid support boat, my paddle wheeler is to big to handle alone. I have a nice 25 foot cedar fantail launch with an antique engine. I will remove the antique engine and install a Bukh marine diesel ( 10 hp )that I bought last weekend. The boat is an open steam launch style right now. I will build a nice period correct cabin and wheel house to match the 1920's erra. The boat will be an over nighter so I can get to the good hard to reach dive sites. My main dive site will be the sunken City Of Ainsworth stern wheeler in 400 feet of water. Seems appropriate to have a vintage boat with vintage sub on a historic wreck. I will start this project in a week or so when my summer holiday starts and hope to be operational by September. Wish me luck Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 14:09:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 06:09:41 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <003b01d0ab73$eb3915c0$c1ab4140$@cfl.rr.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003b01d0ab73$eb3915c0$c1ab4140$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <9F662C8F-FD34-4960-8FE1-B8A5CAA510E4@yahoo.com> Thanks Ken, I was looking at led light specs on the Deep Sea Power & Light site. http://www.deepsea.com/products/lights/ Their lights have ranges from 11-36v. What sort of voltage range did you have in mind? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 21/06/2015, at 4:12 am, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > To all that responded. On the LED Lights. I?ve got enough to start on the specification. I?ll be out of town this next week but soon after the 4th of July I?ll have a rough draft ready to look at. It should answer some questions and pose other questions. > > Thanks for the inputs. We need the spec to get what works and is applicable. > > Ken Martindale > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 9:09 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights > > Hi Alan, > On the DW lights, Phil uses a flexable lense so it compresses as necessary if any there was any air in the alum housing. I am doing the same thing and the cables are a subconn design so no compensation is necessary for them. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Ken, > I am keen on the idea & have ordered a number of cheap led lights, torches & > outdoor lights in past years, with view to making something up. > Have had a surprizing number of failures with cheap led dive lights & torches, > so something built of good components that is reliable would be great. > I have posted this before, but there are a huge amount of lamps, reflectors, leds, > lenses & o-rings on Deal Extreme. You have to hunt through the spares section. > http://www.dx.com/c/lights-lighting-1399 > I have been looking at bare alluminium housings that I can hard anodize. Maybe > just cut an o-ring grove in & oil compensate by fitting a hose barb connector & > plastic oil filled tubing around the wire run. This is how they do it on the "Dual Deep Worker". > I seem to remember them saying they used an oval plastic tube (could be wrong) > but this would be in line with our previous thread on crush pressure of round plastic > This could be an interesting project. > Thanks Alan > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights > > Hi Ken, > Sounds great. > I have a couple of housings. I could send you drawings. What is your email offline. > Cheers, Hugh. > hfulton at q-subs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights > > Any one there, > > > I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. > I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. > > I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. > > They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. > > I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. > > I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. > > Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. > > The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. > > I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. > > What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. > > Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. > > Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? > > The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. > > Not too interested in doing this commercially. > > For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. > > Ken Martindale > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 14:20:07 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 08:20:07 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project In-Reply-To: <1434817623.90214.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434817623.90214.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you know the exact location of it and have you viewed it with an ROV yet? Rick On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > My next project is not a submarine, I have enough! I need a good solid > support boat, my paddle wheeler is to big to handle alone. I have a nice > 25 foot cedar fantail launch with an antique engine. I will remove the > antique engine and install a Bukh marine diesel ( 10 hp )that I bought last > weekend. The boat is an open steam launch style right now. I will build a > nice period correct cabin and wheel house to match the 1920's erra. The > boat will be an over nighter so I can get to the good hard to reach dive > sites. My main dive site will be the sunken City Of Ainsworth stern > wheeler in 400 feet of water. Seems appropriate to have a vintage boat > with vintage sub on a historic wreck. I will start this project in a week > or so when my summer holiday starts and hope to be operational by September. > Wish me luck > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 14:28:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 06:28:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights In-Reply-To: <9F662C8F-FD34-4960-8FE1-B8A5CAA510E4@yahoo.com> References: <003e01d0aa2b$3e67a580$bb36f080$@cfl.rr.com> <55848b13.21fe420a.075b.1a95@mx.google.com> <682489645.2618507.1434751328413.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <003b01d0ab73$eb3915c0$c1ab4140$@cfl.rr.com> <9F662C8F-FD34-4960-8FE1-B8A5CAA510E4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also noticed Deep Sea Power & Light use Sapphire lenses. They are using sapphire on the latest iphones, perhaps we could look in to that. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 21/06/2015, at 6:09 am, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Ken, > I was looking at led light specs on the Deep Sea Power & Light site. > http://www.deepsea.com/products/lights/ > Their lights have ranges from 11-36v. What sort of voltage range > did you have in mind? > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 21/06/2015, at 4:12 am, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> To all that responded. On the LED Lights. I?ve got enough to start on the specification. I?ll be out of town this next week but soon after the 4th of July I?ll have a rough draft ready to look at. It should answer some questions and pose other questions. >> >> Thanks for the inputs. We need the spec to get what works and is applicable. >> >> Ken Martindale >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 9:09 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights >> >> Hi Alan, >> On the DW lights, Phil uses a flexable lense so it compresses as necessary if any there was any air in the alum housing. I am doing the same thing and the cables are a subconn design so no compensation is necessary for them. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Ken, >> I am keen on the idea & have ordered a number of cheap led lights, torches & >> outdoor lights in past years, with view to making something up. >> Have had a surprizing number of failures with cheap led dive lights & torches, >> so something built of good components that is reliable would be great. >> I have posted this before, but there are a huge amount of lamps, reflectors, leds, >> lenses & o-rings on Deal Extreme. You have to hunt through the spares section. >> http://www.dx.com/c/lights-lighting-1399 >> I have been looking at bare alluminium housings that I can hard anodize. Maybe >> just cut an o-ring grove in & oil compensate by fitting a hose barb connector & >> plastic oil filled tubing around the wire run. This is how they do it on the "Dual Deep Worker". >> I seem to remember them saying they used an oval plastic tube (could be wrong) >> but this would be in line with our previous thread on crush pressure of round plastic >> This could be an interesting project. >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights >> >> Hi Ken, >> Sounds great. >> I have a couple of housings. I could send you drawings. What is your email offline. >> Cheers, Hugh. >> hfulton at q-subs.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:00 p.m. >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED Lights >> >> Any one there, >> >> >> I worked at a job where I designed LED drivers. I was looking at the Bridgelux Varo 29 (BXRC-50C 10K0-L-24) which has a light output of a little over 10000 lumens. >> I bought one of these but haven?t fired it up, maybe tomorrow. >> >> I can design the driver to interface with almost any input voltage such as 10 to 30 volts or 20 to 60 volts, etc. >> >> They make reflectors for this LED so it would be relatively easy to come up with a number of 10000 lumen lights for your Subs. >> >> I have some time on my hand and can design the circuitry to drive any selected LED module. Or LED. >> >> I have the time and some funding to come up with lights for the subs. >> >> Is anyone interested in this. We could come up with lights that would only cost the parts. >> >> The first step would be to come up with a specification that would detail most of PSubs needs. Such as variable light output (10,000 to 20,000 lumens), over temperature protection, reverse polarity protection, LED over current protection, EMI, etc. >> >> I would be interested in doing the design work including PWBs. >> >> What do you guys think? I would need help on the mechanical housings. >> >> Cooling is a major concern but while immersed there?s lots of water. Above water Over temperature protection would prevent any damage if you left the lights on by accident. >> >> Any interest? This could be fun. Jon?? >> >> The spec would be the first step and then with enough agreement the design process would start. >> >> Not too interested in doing this commercially. >> >> For what it?s worth I?m an EE specializing in switch mode power converters. >> >> Ken Martindale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 15:08:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:08:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434827300.68425.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes the location is known exactly, a good friend dove it about 15 yrs ago or so. The ship is in mint condition.-------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/20/15, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 20, 2015, 2:20 PM Do you know the exact location of it and have you viewed it with an ROV yet? Rick On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My next project is not a submarine, I have enough!? I need a good solid support boat, my paddle wheeler is to big to handle alone.? I have a nice 25 foot cedar fantail launch with an antique engine.? I will remove the antique engine and install a Bukh marine diesel ( 10 hp )that I bought last weekend.? The boat is an open steam launch style right now.? I will build a nice period correct cabin and wheel house to match the 1920's erra.? The boat will be an over nighter? so I can get to the good hard to reach dive sites.? My main dive site will be the sunken City Of Ainsworth stern wheeler in 400 feet of water.? Seems appropriate to have a vintage boat with vintage sub on a historic wreck.? I will start this project in a week or so when my summer holiday starts and hope to be operational by September. Wish me luck Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 15:11:34 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil Message-ID: <1434827494.23931.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My son just brought me a 42 inch LED light bar with 80 led's, it is 24,000 lumen and 44 in wide. The light is water proof so I will fill it with oil and of coarse install a p trap. What type of oil should I use? Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 15:47:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:47:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil In-Reply-To: <1434827494.23931.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434827494.23931.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01d0ab91$f2d8da90$d88a8fb0$@cfl.rr.com> Be interesting to see how it works with Oil. Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:12 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil My son just brought me a 42 inch LED light bar with 80 led's, it is 24,000 lumen and 44 in wide. The light is water proof so I will fill it with oil and of coarse install a p trap. What type of oil should I use? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 16:32:10 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:32:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project Message-ID: Hank, What kind of engine is comming out of the launch? I love old marine engines, steam, gas, oil, and the like. Keith T hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Yes the location is known exactly, a good friend dove it about 15 yrs ago or so. The ship is in mint condition.-------------------------------------------- >On Sat, 6/20/15, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, June 20, 2015, 2:20 PM > > Do you > know the exact location of it and have you viewed it with an > ROV yet? > Rick > On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at > 6:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > My next > project is not a submarine, I have enough!? I need a good > solid support boat, my paddle wheeler is to big to handle > alone.? I have a nice 25 foot cedar fantail launch with an > antique engine.? I will remove the antique engine and > install a Bukh marine diesel ( 10 hp )that I bought last > weekend.? The boat is an open steam launch style right > now.? I will build a nice period correct cabin and wheel > house to match the 1920's erra.? The boat will be an > over nighter? so I can get to the good hard to reach dive > sites.? My main dive site will be the sunken City Of > Ainsworth stern wheeler in 400 feet of water.? Seems > appropriate to have a vintage boat with vintage sub on a > historic wreck.? I will start this project in a week or so > when my summer holiday starts and hope to be operational by > September. > > Wish me luck > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 16:44:19 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 20:44:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil In-Reply-To: <1434827494.23931.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434827494.23931.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1808557387.2975514.1434833059262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,mineral oil. Sold in supermarkets as baby oil, but they put in additiveslike perfumes. For your purposes that might be the cheapest sourceof a small quantity. I compensated a couple of batteries with baby oilbut there must have been a chemical reaction with the additives asthe battery off gassed excessively. Putting in pure mineral oil solvedthe problem.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:11 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil My son just brought me a 42 inch LED light bar with 80 led's, it is 24,000 lumen and 44 in wide.? The light is water proof so I will fill it with oil and of coarse install a p trap.? What type of oil should I use? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 16:54:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 16:54:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil Message-ID: Hank, Cheapest source I've found for pure mineral oil in small quantities is a veterinary supply store where it is sold in gallon jugs for about $16 USD. It's used mainly for horses. Jim In a message dated 6/20/2015 3:47:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hank, mineral oil. Sold in supermarkets as baby oil, but they put in additives like perfumes. For your purposes that might be the cheapest source of a small quantity. I compensated a couple of batteries with baby oil but there must have been a chemical reaction with the additives as the battery off gassed excessively. Putting in pure mineral oil solved the problem. Alan ____________________________________ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:11 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil My son just brought me a 42 inch LED light bar with 80 led's, it is 24,000 lumen and 44 in wide. The light is water proof so I will fill it with oil and of coarse install a p trap. What type of oil should I use? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 16:58:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:58:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434833895.41502.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The engine is a 1935 15 hp Vivian marine two cyl with open brass rockers weighs 1,200 lbs it is my favorite in my collection. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/20/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 20, 2015, 4:32 PM Hank, What kind of engine is comming out of the launch? I love old marine engines, steam, gas, oil, and the like. Keith T hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Yes the location is known exactly, a good friend dove it about 15 yrs ago or so. The ship is in mint condition.-------------------------------------------- >On Sat, 6/20/15, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] next project > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, June 20, 2015, 2:20 PM > > Do you > know the exact location of it and have you viewed it with an > ROV yet? > Rick > On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at > 6:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > My next > project is not a submarine, I have enough!? I need a good > solid support boat, my paddle wheeler is to big to handle > alone.? I have a nice 25 foot cedar fantail launch with an > antique engine.? I will remove the antique engine and > install a Bukh marine diesel ( 10 hp )that I bought last > weekend.? The boat is an open steam launch style right > now.? I will build a nice period correct cabin and wheel > house to match the 1920's erra.? The boat will be an > over nighter? so I can get to the good hard to reach dive > sites.? My main dive site will be the sunken City Of > Ainsworth stern wheeler in 400 feet of water.? Seems > appropriate to have a vintage boat with vintage sub on a > historic wreck.? I will start this project in a week or so > when my summer holiday starts and hope to be operational by > September. > > Wish me luck > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 17:00:16 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 14:00:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434834016.52682.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Perfect, thanks' guys, I will get some pure mineral oil. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/20/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Received: Saturday, June 20, 2015, 4:54 PM Hank, ? Cheapest source I've found for pure mineral oil in small quantities is a veterinary supply store where it is sold in gallon jugs for about $16 USD. ?It's used mainly for horses. Jim ? In a message dated 6/20/2015 3:47:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hank, mineral oil. Sold in supermarkets as baby oil, but they put in additives like perfumes. For your purposes that might be the cheapest source of a small quantity. I compensated a couple of batteries with baby oil but there must have been a chemical reaction with the additives as the battery off gassed excessively. Putting in pure mineral oil solved the problem. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:11 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil My son just brought me a 42 inch LED light bar with 80 led's, it is 24,000 lumen and 44 in wide.? The light is water proof so I will fill it with oil and of coarse install a p trap.? What type of oil should I use? Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 18:09:35 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 22:09:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Up Display Message-ID: <209766554.3002321.1434838175941.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I keep seeing adds for heads up displays.They look very cool & would probably work well in a submarine with low light conditions.There are marine versions. One on Ebay at the moment.?How to build a cheap version...http://lifehacker.com/how-to-build-a-heads-up-display-for-your-car-1129913775Tailer made full windscreen ...http://www.superimaging.com/hud.html Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 21:01:37 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 01:01:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Up Display In-Reply-To: <209766554.3002321.1434838175941.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <209766554.3002321.1434838175941.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508460880.3072767.1434848497459.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thinking about it, it will probably ghost with the thick acrylicwe use. Be interesting to try it though.Bosch have a programable unit that you can configur yourown display on. Generally on a car you have to pay an extra$1000- for the Heads Up option.Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 10:09 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Up Display I keep seeing adds for heads up displays.They look very cool & would probably work well in a submarine with low light conditions.There are marine versions. One on Ebay at the moment.?How to build a cheap version...http://lifehacker.com/how-to-build-a-heads-up-display-for-your-car-1129913775Tailer made full windscreen ...http://www.superimaging.com/hud.html Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 22:27:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 19:27:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light oil Message-ID: <20150620192745.DADE396@m0048140.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 20 22:50:16 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:50:16 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve In-Reply-To: <20150619161537.DADC5A4@m0048140.ppops.net> References: <20150619161537.DADC5A4@m0048140.ppops.net> Message-ID: <55862667.89a9420a.5e28.ffffb25c@mx.google.com> What happened to Captain K's snorkel float valve? That was a snorkel and over pressure valve all in one which I have adopted. Too big an OP valve at low differential will let water leak in if it is not in the right orientation. If it is upside down like a pingpong ball on a kids dive snorkel then it wont leak water in while venting small quantities. I have made a 1-1/2" float valve using Capn K's design concept but I have 3 seals. Then I have a combination 2" ball valve valve with non-return and a pneumatic operated shuttle design leading into the cabin. So if all valves are open there are two non check valve/OP valves in series both of which you can breathe out through. Maybe a bit complex as I am using all that for the Engine intake into the cabin as well, however the concept remains the same as the float valve of the K350 and a non return with isolating valve. Better to get a consensus of process type drawings and have communal parts. That way no-ones sub is a complete orphan. Very good 20/20 hindsight. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 20 June 2015 11:16 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve I found a really nice 1" SS spring check valve that I think would work really nicely as an OP valve, the spring is so light that the differential would be next to nothing. I also looked at an interesting ball bearing check valve that works on just gravity, which would work as well, but it wasn't SS. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:28:43 -0700 Alec, At first I resisted the notion of thermal expansion, but I was thinking in terms of heat generated from motor use. I didn't consider the temperature change from the sun on a black motor until the light went on :-) I have changed my p trap ss tube to a larger hose so there is more air volume to work with. I am ready to test that part. Now I have to fix my bent up rudder :-( Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 5:03 PM Oh! Well I suppose it just depends on the volume the valve can handle. This is an interesting calculation, which I have not done but should. In general, these valves should handle pretty huge flow rates. But you're right, its basic to surface very slowly when there's any over-pressure - normally we dive with under-pressure. For a K-boat sized hatch, an over-pressure of 1/4 psi translates to a force of 95lbs trying to pull the dome out of the hatch ring. I know Snoopy's dome stays put at 1/4 psi, but I wouldn't take it any further than that just in case. BTW, on the subject of calculations and changing topics back to the recent thruster compensation thread, you were right about the temperature change. The volume I had to compensate was a combination of thermal contraction and air bubble. The air bubble was of unknown size, but I ran the numbers on the thermal contraction alone and it is enough to cause the problem. The little hose only has a an internal volume of 10ml. The thermal contraction of the oil turned out to be 16ml - add to that the volume of the unknown bubble, and you can see the hose was inadequate even if it squashed to zero internal volume. I am now installing bellows bottles in place of the little hoses, with a capacity of 60ml. And a better filling method that should eliminate the bubble. You'd think I wasn't an engineer, assuming the effect of thermal contraction to be negligible. Its easy to focus the calculations on big items like hull strength or stability and make assumptions about the little stuff. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have to be experienced to surface slowly and hover while the valve leaks out the air.-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 4:16 PM I don't get the "in the hands" part... its completely automatic. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Agreed, In the hands of an experienced submarine operator an over pressure valve is safe, providing it is large enough. I have not seen an example of a large enough OPV. A simple valve in the hatch will do the same job, just need an umbrella :-) The noise of a compressor is a welcome sound if it means keeping the dome on the sub :-) Hank-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6/19/15, Carsten Standfu?" via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] over pressure valve To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Friday, June 19, 2015, 2:47 PM But a overpressure vale works full auto. A compressor not. A OPV needs no energy - but a compressor did. A OPV needs no room - but a compressor did. And a compressor is a noisy solution.. vbr Carsten "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb: > Personally I think an onboard compressor is a much safer option than an over pressure valve. There are multiple safety benefits to an onboard compressor, over pressure being the biggy. With a compressor you can get rid of the pressure without surfacing and trying to control a perfect ascent. With the OPV you have to surface a bit and let air out and wait then surface more and wait and so on. You can't just surface and hope the valve keeps up with the demand. This is more important for subs with large domes. > The next benefit to a compressor is, if you lost all your air, you surface by dropping your weight. In my case the weight is small and I would also drop the thruster and tail assembly. Still, not much sub out of the water. With the compressor, I can open my vent valve in the hatch and use the compressor to fill the ballast tanks. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 18:30:05 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 18:30:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Technical Session Web Viewing Message-ID: All, if you would like to *see and listen* to the Psub convention technical sessions on Friday (6/26) please follow the attached instructions to prepare. You will also be able to ask questions through a chat window but we will not be able to hear you. Please create an account and then you can just log in on the day of the sessions (sorry about the mandatory commercial). I will be sending a last minute updated schedule but plan on this: - 9:30 AM start time (EST) - 9:30-10:30 David Columbo Seaquestor Project Update - 10:30-11:30 John Kammerer Project 765 Update - Afternoon schedule will be communicated at that time - Anticipated 1:00PM Alec Smyth Snoopy Lake Seneca Dive Report/Video Thanks, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: User Instructions.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 83042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 18:47:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 15:47:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Technical Session Web Viewing Message-ID: Steve, Will this be available for viewing later (for those of us who have to work) ? Keith T Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >All, if you would like to *see and listen* to the Psub convention technical >sessions on Friday (6/26) please follow the attached instructions to >prepare. You will also be able to ask questions through a chat window but >we will not be able to hear you. > >Please create an account and then you can just log in on the day of the >sessions (sorry about the mandatory commercial). > >I will be sending a last minute updated schedule but plan on this: > > - 9:30 AM start time (EST) > - 9:30-10:30 David Columbo Seaquestor Project Update > - 10:30-11:30 John Kammerer Project 765 Update > > > - Afternoon schedule will be communicated at that time > - Anticipated 1:00PM Alec Smyth Snoopy Lake Seneca Dive Report/Video > > >Thanks, >Steve > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 19:55:09 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 19:55:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Technical Session Web Viewing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keith, great idea. I will have my IT guy check it out. If I can I will. Steve On Jun 21, 2015 6:48 PM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > > Will this be available for viewing later (for those of us who have to > work) ? > > Keith T > > Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >All, if you would like to *see and listen* to the Psub convention > technical > >sessions on Friday (6/26) please follow the attached instructions to > >prepare. You will also be able to ask questions through a chat window but > >we will not be able to hear you. > > > >Please create an account and then you can just log in on the day of the > >sessions (sorry about the mandatory commercial). > > > >I will be sending a last minute updated schedule but plan on this: > > > > - 9:30 AM start time (EST) > > - 9:30-10:30 David Columbo Seaquestor Project Update > > - 10:30-11:30 John Kammerer Project 765 Update > > > > > > - Afternoon schedule will be communicated at that time > > - Anticipated 1:00PM Alec Smyth Snoopy Lake Seneca Dive Report/Video > > > > > >Thanks, > >Steve > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 20:09:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 17:09:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Message-ID: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil. It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy. I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting. I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon) and the whole conversion takes less than an hr. The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power. The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 20:54:27 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 20:54:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01d0ac85$fdb28f70$f917ae50$@cfl.rr.com> Nice to hear, Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 8:10 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil. It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy. I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting. I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon) and the whole conversion takes less than an hr. The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power. The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 21:31:54 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 01:31:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2015636351.3496251.1434936714772.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,the led electronics I've looked at in some of my lampshave electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under pressure.So "if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as to why.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 12:09 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 21:35:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 18:35:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <000d01d0ac85$fdb28f70$f917ae50$@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1434936917.48534.YahooMailBasic@web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks Ken, Is it possible to dim these lights? like a dimmer switch of some sort Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 8:54 PM Nice to hear, Ken Martindale -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 8:10 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 21:40:52 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 18:40:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <2015636351.3496251.1434936714772.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub. I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM Hank,the led electronics I've looked at in some of my lampshave electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under pressure.So "if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as to why.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 12:09 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 22:32:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 02:32:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2015636351.3496251.1434936714772.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <905387500.3553573.1434940369778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank,there may be problems with putting the electronics in the sub, aswith the motor controller battery to speed controller wire length. Ken may know.I opened up a couple of my led flood lamps last night & found they had the capacitors.People have warned me about them crushing in the past, but what psi they can takebefore failing I don't know.I know they had oil compensated led lights on the Nereus that could stand the pressureat 6000 meters. (Nereus disintegrated at depth last year)Alan Let There Be Light in the Dark Depths | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | Let There Be Light in the Dark DepthsOceanus Article | | | | View on www.whoi.edu | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM Hank,the led electronics I've looked at in some of my lampshave electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under pressure.So "if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as to why.Alan ? ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 12:09 PM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ? ? Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 21 22:36:13 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 22:36:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2015636351.3496251.1434936714772.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have, and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are really well made, but even better would be a light like you say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the weak spot factory cable seal. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub. I > thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM > > Hank,the led > electronics I've looked at in some of my > lampshave > electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under > pressure.So > "if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as > to why.Alan > > > From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Monday, June 22, > 2015 12:09 PM > Subject: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > > Success, my new light bar is installed and full > of oil. It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the > bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was > easy. I filled the light while the end cap was off then > reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting. > I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon) and the whole conversion > takes less than an hr. The light works just fine, maybe > not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on > power. The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 00:45:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 18:45:45 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434931785.9327.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: any pictures Hank? Rick On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 2:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Success, my new light bar is installed and full of oil. It was remarkably > easy, the end caps come off the bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 > pipe thread was easy. I filled the light while the end cap was off then > reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting. I have a p trap > line (1/8 nylon) and the whole conversion takes less than an hr. The > light works just fine, maybe not as bright as my halogen lights but much > easier on power. The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 08:17:31 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 05:17:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434975451.94816.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, Good to hear that they still work. There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though. I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity. A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing. When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics. Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM I have, and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are really well made, but even better would be a light like you say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the weak spot factory cable seal. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM ?Hank,the led ?electronics I've looked at in some of my ?lampshave ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under ?pressure.So ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as ?to why.Alan ? ? From: hank pronk via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Monday, June 22, ?2015 12:09 PM ? Subject: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 08:37:23 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 05:37:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1434976643.2623.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, By the way, you are a bloddy genius! you have taken a costly and important component and found a way to make it simple and cheap . Well done and thank you! Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM I have, and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are really well made, but even better would be a light like you say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the weak spot factory cable seal. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM ?Hank,the led ?electronics I've looked at in some of my ?lampshave ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under ?pressure.So ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as ?to why.Alan ? ? From: hank pronk via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Monday, June 22, ?2015 12:09 PM ? Subject: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 09:37:24 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 06:37:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Message-ID: <20150622063724.1810C463@m0005309.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 11:01:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:01:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: References: <2015636351.3496251.1434936714772.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1434937252.42198.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5588235F.4060508@psubs.org> What's the make/model of the light bar? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 17:49:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:49:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <5588235F.4060508@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1435009765.42125.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I can not find a make on it, my son got a crazy deal on 6 of them on Amazon. He resold them at a profit, :-) I got the dad deal. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/22/15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 11:01 AM What's the make/model of the light bar? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 18:18:22 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:18:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <1434975451.94816.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1434975451.94816.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2034021562.4276314.1435011502938.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> >>>When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.??.....You mean this one (attached picture) below Hank. ?It doesn't seem to have any reflectors.?I am just being precautionary bringing up the fact that these units have electrolytic capacitors. They may take the pressure.I have seen people pot them?to give them strength, however they fail by overheating so this might exacerbate the heating problem.Below is part of an article on led drivers.Electrolytic Capacitors ? LED drivers Achilles Heal The majority of high power (>15W) LED drivers employ electrolytic capacitors either on the input AC stage to enable filtering of noise or on the output channel DC stage of the driver.It is well known that electrolytic capacitors are one of the weakest elements of a driver circuit and frequently result in failure, especially at elevated temperaturesEnvironmental factors affecting the service life of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor include temperature, humidity and vibration (environment), as well as electrical factors, applied voltage, ripple current and charging/discharging conditions. In capacitors for mid-to-high-voltage filters, temperature and applied voltage are the most important controlling factors. The estimated service life may be calculated based on the core temperature of the capacitor and the applied voltage.Full article...http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Alec, Good to hear that they still work.? There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though.? I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity.? A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing.? When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.? Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM I have, and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are really well made, but even better would be a light like you say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the weak spot factory cable seal. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM ?Hank,the led ?electronics I've looked at in some of my ?lampshave ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under ?pressure.So ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as ?to why.Alan ? ? From: hank pronk via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Monday, June 22, ?2015 12:09 PM ? Subject: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 610 - Copy.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 169572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 18:33:50 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Message-ID: There is a potting compound called heat sink epoxy, that transfers component heat. One could have a aluminum heat sink that is imbeaded in this epoxy to conduct the heat to the water. I only know about this from a job I had (in another life..lol) potting high voltage power supplies for a company that contracted to make supplies for NASA. No electrolitics were used all epoxy button caps and potted in heat sink epoxy. Hope this helps. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.??.....You mean this one (attached picture) below Hank. ?It doesn't seem to have any reflectors.?I am just being precautionary bringing up the fact that these units have electrolytic capacitors. They may take the pressure.I have seen people pot them?to give them strength, however they fail by overheating so this might exacerbate the heating problem.Below is part of an article on led drivers.Electrolytic Capacitors ? LED drivers Achilles Heal >The majority of high power (>15W) LED drivers employ electrolytic capacitors either on the input AC stage to enable filtering of noise or on the output channel DC stage of the driver.It is well known that electrolytic capacitors are one of the weakest elements of a driver circuit and frequently result in failure, especially at elevated temperaturesEnvironmental factors affecting the service life of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor include temperature, humidity and vibration (environment), as well as electrical factors, applied voltage, ripple current and charging/discharging conditions. In capacitors for mid-to-high-voltage filters, temperature and applied voltage are the most important controlling factors. The estimated service life may be calculated based on the core temperature of the capacitor and the applied voltage.Full article...http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 12:17 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > >Alec, >Good to hear that they still work.? There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though.? I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity.? A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing.? When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.? > >Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM > > I have, > and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They > both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 > feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil > with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was > where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely > pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are > really well made, but even better would be a light like you > say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. > Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a > proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the > weak spot factory cable seal. > Thanks, > > Alec > On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at > 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Alan, > > Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them > inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, > just flooding the whole light. > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM > > > > ?Hank,the led > > ?electronics I've looked at > in some of my > > ?lampshave > > ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under > > ?pressure.So > > ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up > as > > ?to why.Alan > > > > > > ? ? From: hank pronk > via > > ?Personal_Submersibles > > ? > > > > ?To: > > ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > ? Sent: Monday, June 22, > > ?2015 12:09 PM > > ? Subject: > > ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > > > > > ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full > > ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off > the > > ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread > was > > ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off > then > > ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose > fitting.? > > ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole > conversion > > ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, > maybe > > ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on > > ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen > > ?Hank > > ?_______________________________________________ > > ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > ?_______________________________________________ > > ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 18:31:28 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:31:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: <2034021562.4276314.1435011502938.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435012288.28665.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I think the one I saw was square? sounds like heat is the big problem. We sure got that covered, also humidity, well we got that covered also by submerging in oil. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/22/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 6:18 PM >>>When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.??.....You mean this one (attached picture) below Hank. ?It doesn't seem to have any reflectors.?I am just being precautionary bringing up the fact that these units have electrolytic capacitors. They may take the pressure.I have seen people pot them?to give them strength, however they fail by overheating so this might exacerbate the heating problem.Below is part of an article on led drivers.Electrolytic Capacitors ? LED drivers Achilles Heal The majority of high power (>15W) LED drivers employ electrolytic capacitors either on the input AC stage to enable filtering of noise or on the output channel DC stage of the driver.It is well known that electrolytic capacitors are one of the weakest elements of a driver circuit and frequently result in failure, especially at elevated temperaturesEnvironmental factors affecting the service life of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor include temperature, humidity and vibration (environment), as well as electrical factors, applied voltage, ripple current and charging/discharging conditions. In capacitors for mid-to-high-voltage filters, temperature and applied voltage are the most important controlling factors. The estimated service life may be calculated based on the core temperature of the capacitor and the applied voltage.Full article...http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Alec, Good to hear that they still work.? There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though.? I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity.? A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing.? When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.? Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM I have, and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are really well made, but even better would be a light like you say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the weak spot factory cable seal. Thanks, Alec On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, just flooding the whole light. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM ?Hank,the led ?electronics I've looked at in some of my ?lampshave ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under ?pressure.So ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up as ?to why.Alan ? ? From: hank pronk via ?Personal_Submersibles ? ?To: ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Monday, June 22, ?2015 12:09 PM ? Subject: ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off the ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread was ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off then ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose fitting.? ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole conversion ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, maybe ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen ?Hank ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- ?_______________________________________________ ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 19:20:21 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:20:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <842416637.4317579.1435015222011.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> That could work well Keith,maybe a close fitting aluminium tube around the capacitor that extends above it.Slide the tube down over the capacitor in to a bed of heat sink epoxy or maybe standard epoxy,then pour a bit of epoxy in to the top of the tube, sealing the top of the capacitor.This seems a great solution for fool proofing these oil filled lights.Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar There is a potting compound called heat sink epoxy, that transfers component heat. One could have a aluminum heat sink that is imbeaded in this epoxy to conduct the heat to the water. I only know about this from a job I had (in another life..lol) potting high voltage power supplies for a company that contracted to make supplies for NASA. No electrolitics were used all epoxy button caps and potted in heat sink epoxy. Hope this helps. Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.??.....You mean this one (attached picture) below Hank. ?It doesn't seem to have any reflectors.?I am just being precautionary bringing up the fact that these units have electrolytic capacitors. They may take the pressure.I have seen people pot them?to give them strength, however they fail by overheating so this might exacerbate the heating problem.Below is part of an article on led drivers.Electrolytic Capacitors ? LED drivers Achilles Heal >The majority of high power (>15W) LED drivers employ electrolytic capacitors either on the input AC stage to enable filtering of noise or on the output channel DC stage of the driver.It is well known that electrolytic capacitors are one of the weakest elements of a driver circuit and frequently result in failure, especially at elevated temperaturesEnvironmental factors affecting the service life of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor include temperature, humidity and vibration (environment), as well as electrical factors, applied voltage, ripple current and charging/discharging conditions. In capacitors for mid-to-high-voltage filters, temperature and applied voltage are the most important controlling factors. The estimated service life may be calculated based on the core temperature of the capacitor and the applied voltage.Full article...http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html > >? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 12:17 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar >? > >Alec, >Good to hear that they still work.? There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though.? I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity.? A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing.? When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.? > >Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. >Hank -------------------------------------------- >On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM > > I have, > and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They > both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 > feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil > with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was > where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely > pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are > really well made, but even better would be a light like you > say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. > Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a > proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the > weak spot factory cable seal. > Thanks, > > Alec > On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at > 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Alan, > > Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them > inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, > just flooding the whole light. > > Hank-------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM > > > > ?Hank,the led > > ?electronics I've looked at > in some of my > > ?lampshave > > ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under > > ?pressure.So > > ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up > as > > ?to why.Alan > > > > > > ? ? From: hank pronk > via > > ?Personal_Submersibles > > ? > > > > ?To: > > ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > ? Sent: Monday, June 22, > > ?2015 12:09 PM > > ? Subject: > > ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > > > > > > ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full > > ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off > the > > ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread > was > > ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off > then > > ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose > fitting.? > > ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole > conversion > > ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, > maybe > > ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on > > ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen > > ?Hank > > ?_______________________________________________ > > ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > ?_______________________________________________ > > ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 19:43:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:43:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive Message-ID: <1435016628.80630.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon, This is the light bar on Amazon Hank --- On Mon, 6/22/15, hank pronk wrote: > From: hank pronk > Subject: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive > To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" > Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 7:42 PM > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Ebotrade-tech-Light-Flood-Pickup-Truck/dp/B00FWOKMI4/ref=sr_1_49?s=automotive > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 21:24:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 01:24:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive In-Reply-To: <1435016628.80630.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435016628.80630.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1763380680.4380576.1435022683578.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I found this pic of a light bar being pulled apart.Looks like an impossible task potting the capacitors in this case.Who knows what pressure they will take.On the positve side, from the link ?it looks like you have a 2 year Warantee :)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 11:43 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive Jon, This is the light bar on Amazon Hank --- On Mon, 6/22/15, hank pronk wrote: > From: hank pronk > Subject: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive > To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" > Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 7:42 PM > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Ebotrade-tech-Light-Flood-Pickup-Truck/dp/B00FWOKMI4/ref=sr_1_49?s=automotive > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 22 23:08:28 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 20:08:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive In-Reply-To: <1763380680.4380576.1435022683578.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435028908.69226.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, I think for the cost it is a worth while experiment. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/22/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 9:24 PM Hank, I found this pic of a light bar being pulled apart.Looks like an impossible task potting the capacitors in this case.Who knows what pressure they will take.On the positve side, from the link ?it looks like you have a 2 year Warantee :)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 11:43 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive Jon, This is the light bar on Amazon Hank --- On Mon, 6/22/15, hank pronk wrote: > From: hank pronk > Subject: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive > To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" > Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 7:42 PM > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Ebotrade-tech-Light-Flood-Pickup-Truck/dp/B00FWOKMI4/ref=sr_1_49?s=automotive > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 23 00:11:53 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:11:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar Message-ID: For best potting results I would recommend sticking it in a vacuum chamber to pull all the air out of the epoxy. You'll be surprised how many bubbles there are. I know from first hand experience! Keith T Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >That could work well Keith,maybe a close fitting aluminium tube around the capacitor that extends above it.Slide the tube down over the capacitor in to a bed of heat sink epoxy or maybe standard epoxy,then pour a bit of epoxy in to the top of the tube, sealing the top of the capacitor.This seems a great solution for fool proofing these oil filled lights.Alan > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:33 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar > >There is a potting compound called heat sink epoxy, that transfers component heat. One could have a aluminum heat sink that is imbeaded in this epoxy to conduct the heat to the water. > >I only know about this from a job I had (in another life..lol) potting high voltage power supplies for a company that contracted to make supplies for NASA. No electrolitics were used all epoxy button caps and potted in heat sink epoxy. > >Hope this helps. > >Keith T > >Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>>>>When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.??.....You mean this one (attached picture) below Hank. ?It doesn't seem to have any reflectors.?I am just being precautionary bringing up the fact that these units have electrolytic capacitors. They may take the pressure.I have seen people pot them?to give them strength, however they fail by overheating so this might exacerbate the heating problem.Below is part of an article on led drivers.Electrolytic Capacitors ? LED drivers Achilles Heal >>The majority of high power (>15W) LED drivers employ electrolytic capacitors either on the input AC stage to enable filtering of noise or on the output channel DC stage of the driver.It is well known that electrolytic capacitors are one of the weakest elements of a driver circuit and frequently result in failure, especially at elevated temperaturesEnvironmental factors affecting the service life of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor include temperature, humidity and vibration (environment), as well as electrical factors, applied voltage, ripple current and charging/discharging conditions. In capacitors for mid-to-high-voltage filters, temperature and applied voltage are the most important controlling factors. The estimated service life may be calculated based on the core temperature of the capacitor and the applied voltage.Full article...http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html >> >>? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 12:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar >>? >> >>Alec, >>Good to hear that they still work.? There is plenty of room for a proper penetrator in the end cap and as I said they are very robust. The cable comes out the back of the light in between the cooling fins, I am not sure about putting the penetrator in that spot though.? I am going with a p trap tube for simplicity.? A little fresh water is no biggy, it will just sink to the bottom of the housing.? When I had a visit at Nuytco, Dr Phil handed me a DW light and it seems to me it was a complete unit with electronics.? >> >>Rick, I will get some pictures together to show what I did. >>Hank -------------------------------------------- >>On Sun, 6/21/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 10:36 PM >> >> I have, >> and so far so good with a caveat. I have two lights. They >> both still work well after a year, and have been to 250 >> feet. That said, one of them replaced a little of the oil >> with fresh water on the last outing. I think the problem was >> where the cable enters the housing, because it got severely >> pulled sideways (light snagged in tow line). These are >> really well made, but even better would be a light like you >> say with a part can be pulled for drilling and tapping. >> Hank, do you think there's enough space to install a >> proper electrical penetrator? I would love to get rid of the >> weak spot factory cable seal. >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at >> 9:40 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alan, >> >> Hmmm maybe I should remove the electronics and put them >> inside the sub.? I thought Alec was doing the same thing, >> just flooding the whole light. >> >> Hank-------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, 6/21/15, Alan James via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar >> >> ?To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> ?Received: Sunday, June 21, 2015, 9:31 PM >> >> >> >> ?Hank,the led >> >> ?electronics I've looked at >> in some of my >> >> ?lampshave >> >> ?electrolytic capacitors in them, which can crush under >> >> ?pressure.So >> >> ?"if" it fails at depth this may be a heads up >> as >> >> ?to why.Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> ? ? From: hank pronk >> via >> >> ?Personal_Submersibles >> >> ? >> >> >> >> ?To: >> >> ?personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> ? Sent: Monday, June 22, >> >> ?2015 12:09 PM >> >> ? Subject: >> >> ?[PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light bar >> >> >> >> >> >> ?Success, my new light bar is installed and full >> >> ?of oil.? It was remarkably easy, the end caps come off >> the >> >> ?bar and are quite heavy, so tapping a 1/8 pipe thread >> was >> >> ?easy.? I filled the light while the end cap was off >> then >> >> ?reassembled it and topped it up through the hose >> fitting.? >> >> ?I have a p trap line (1/8 nylon)? and the whole >> conversion >> >> ?takes less than an hr.? The light works just fine, >> maybe >> >> ?not as bright as my halogen lights but much easier on >> >> ?power.? The light runs on 10 amps at 24V. 24,000 lumen >> >> ?Hank >> >> ?_______________________________________________ >> >> ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ?-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> ?_______________________________________________ >> >> ?Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> ?Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> ?http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 23 03:54:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:54:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive In-Reply-To: <1435028908.69226.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1763380680.4380576.1435022683578.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1435028908.69226.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1465398626.4555570.1435046072389.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'd give it ?a go too Hank.I've been doing a bit more Googling & can't find any specifics on capacitorpressure limits. Found this on an electronics forum. It may be of interestto Ken in his led light driver design.AlanIt's kind of funny reading these posts looking for advice for pressure tolerant electronics.. It seemed like such an esoteric concern when I started designing electronics for ROVs. I didn't think that there would be many other people out there looking for this information.Our electrical systems are routinely tested to 10.5kPSI (5000m+ some safety factor), and we really don't have too many issues with component failures (due to pressure). That being said, we do not use a handful of different types of components: - Electrolytic capacitors - Tantalum capacitors - Hermetically sealed components. - Most metal can oscillators/crystals. - PVC insulated wire if in an oil compensated housing. - If critical, ferrite materials seem to exhibit fairly large changes with respect to pressure. Other than that, most components work just fine. There are a few special cases where we cannot design out large bulk capacitance, specifically for motor control, where our electronic housings require special 1 ATM pockets where we seal special components.I have also had luck using MEMS oscillators in pressures below 5kPSI. Above that, we have had some failures. It's usually worth taking your final product to a pressure chamber and electronically monitoring it while it is operating at pressure, just to look for any sneaky issues.Let me know if you have any more specific questions too. I'll see if I can answer them for you. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive Alan, I think for the cost it is a worth while experiment. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/22/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road??? Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck:??? Automotive To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 9:24 PM Hank, I found this pic of a light bar being pulled apart.Looks like an impossible task potting the capacitors in this case.Who knows what pressure they will take.On the positve side, from the link ?it looks like you have a 2 year Warantee :)Alan ? ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ? Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 11:43 AM ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road??? Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck:??? Automotive ? Jon, This is the light bar on Amazon Hank --- On Mon, 6/22/15, hank pronk wrote: > From: hank pronk > Subject: Amazon.com: Ebotrade-tech 42" 240w LED Off Road Light Bar Spot Flood Beam Work Light 4wd Boat Pickup Truck: Automotive > To: "hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca" > Received: Monday, June 22, 2015, 7:42 PM > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Ebotrade-tech-Light-Flood-Pickup-Truck/dp/B00FWOKMI4/ref=sr_1_49?s=automotive > ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 23 16:23:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 13:23:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Message-ID: <20150623132343.1DAF696A@m0048136.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 23 18:00:02 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer In-Reply-To: <20150623132343.1DAF696A@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1435096802.33528.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> How much will your sub weigh -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "PSubs" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM Getting a great deal on 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat ramp!?Brian -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 23 23:39:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 20:39:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Message-ID: <20150623203915.1DAE1512@m0005311.ppops.net> About 14 K lbs ;-) --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 How much will your sub weigh -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "PSubs" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM Getting a great deal on 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat ramp!?Brian -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 00:53:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 21:53:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Message-ID: Brian, I would think your truck should haul that load, just don't expect over 4 mpg!!..haha. Keith T. Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >About 14 K lbs ;-) > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer >Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 > >How much will your sub weigh > >-------------------------------------------- >On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "PSubs" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM > > Getting a great deal on > 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? > I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it > !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies > in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck > loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat > ramp!?Brian > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 07:34:56 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer In-Reply-To: <20150623203915.1DAE1512@m0005311.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1435145696.41550.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, yikes that's a bit chunky :-) I assume your not travelling far to the launch with only two 7K axels. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM About 14 K lbs???;-) --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 How much will your sub weigh -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "PSubs" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM Getting a great deal on 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat ramp!?Brian -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 08:50:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:50:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Psub Tech Sessions Viewing Message-ID: All, if everything works as hoped the technical session presentations will be recorded so those who can't view live will be able to view at a later time. More to come on this. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 10:51:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:51:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Message-ID: <20150624075120.1DAF59B6@m0048136.ppops.net> Hank, Keith, Not sure where it will actually top out at might be under that number, but those axels can handle more than what they're rated for. I didn't want to have to make the leap to the 10K because you get into a whole different category of axel, and three axels would restrict my turning ability. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 Brian, yikes that's a bit chunky :-) I assume your not travelling far to the launch with only two 7K axels. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM About 14 K lbs???;-) --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 How much will your sub weigh -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "PSubs" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM Getting a great deal on 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat ramp!?Brian -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 11:18:35 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:18:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer In-Reply-To: <20150624075120.1DAF59B6@m0048136.ppops.net> References: <20150624075120.1DAF59B6@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <7B971CE2-A262-49D5-A78A-E4307188178A@aol.com> Brian, What are you doing for trailer brakes? Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Keith, Not sure where it will actually top out at might be under that number, but those axels can handle more than what they're rated for. I didn't want to have to make the leap to the 10K because you get into a whole different category of axel, and three axels would restrict my turning ability. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 > > > Brian, > yikes that's a bit chunky :-) I assume your not travelling far to the launch with only two 7K axels. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM > > About 14 K lbs ;-) > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 > > How much will your sub weigh > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "PSubs" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM > > Getting a great deal on > 2 - 7000 lb axils for my trailer! > I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it > ! It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies > in the rear. Might have to have the truck > loaded however, to get enough traction on the boat > ramp! Brian > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 11:31:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Message-ID: <20150624083151.1DB1F70F@m0048141.ppops.net> Hydraulic, since it will see salt water, just surge brakes --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:18:35 -0400 Brian, What are you doing for trailer brakes? Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Keith, Not sure where it will actually top out at might be under that number, but those axels can handle more than what they're rated for. I didn't want to have to make the leap to the 10K because you get into a whole different category of axel, and three axels would restrict my turning ability. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 > > > Brian, > yikes that's a bit chunky :-) I assume your not travelling far to the launch with only two 7K axels. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM > > About 14 K lbs ;-) > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 > > How much will your sub weigh > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "PSubs" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM > > Getting a great deal on > 2 - 7000 lb axils for my trailer! > I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it > ! It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies > in the rear. Might have to have the truck > loaded however, to get enough traction on the boat > ramp! Brian > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 12:20:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 09:20:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Psub Tech Sessions Viewing Message-ID: <4h6t72c8bi0wnwtkxt3306hf.1435162773183@email.android.com> Awsome Steve, Thanks for setting that up I look forward to watching it! Keith T. Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >All, if everything works as hoped the technical session presentations will >be recorded so those who can't view live will be able to view at a later >time. > >More to come on this. > >Steve > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 20:09:29 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:09:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer In-Reply-To: <20150624075120.1DAF59B6@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1435190969.37363.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Your right, I had 48,000 lbs on my trailer with 3 7K axels and yes one bent :-( Hank-------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/24/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 10:51 AM Hank, Keith,???Not sure where it will actually top out at might be under that number, but those axels can handle more than what they're rated for.? I didn't want to have to make the leap to the 10K because you get into a whole different category of axel, and three axels would restrict my turning ability.? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 Brian, yikes that's a bit chunky :-)? I assume your not travelling? far to the launch with only two 7K axels. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM About 14 K lbs???;-) --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 How much will your sub weigh -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer ? To: "PSubs" ? Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM ? ? Getting a great deal on ? 2?? - 7000 lb axils? for my trailer!? ? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it ? !??? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies ? in the rear.?? Might have to have the truck ? loaded?however, to get enough traction on the boat ? ramp!?Brian ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 20:15:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:15:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive Message-ID: <1435191332.36501.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Today I dove Gamma to 101 feet to test the dome. It sure is nice to sit up front and cruise the lake bottom. My light worked just fine although it was not needed because it was so light even at 101 feet. The light took on some water, so I will go with a soft bladder instead of the p trap. The new trailer was a charm, it is so long that Gamma just slid off with the truck hooked up still. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 20:40:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 00:40:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive In-Reply-To: <1435191332.36501.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435191332.36501.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <814481993.843371.1435192817369.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Hank,I am enjoying these reports we are getting.How did the light get water in it? Was the air tube portion of the P trap notlong enough? Or did you not get enough air out of the light bar?The bar I saw taken apart had a lot of nooks & crannies that would be hardto get oil in to. You would probably have to stand the bar on it's end; fill itwith oil & leave it like that over night.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:15 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive Today I dove Gamma to 101 feet to test the dome.? It sure is nice to sit up front and cruise the lake bottom. My light worked just fine although it was not needed because it was so light even at 101 feet.? The light took on some water, so I will go with a soft bladder instead of the p trap.? The new trailer was a charm, it is so long that Gamma just slid off with the truck hooked up still. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 20:56:38 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:56:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive In-Reply-To: <814481993.843371.1435192817369.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435193798.73291.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, Yes it was the p trap line, it was to short, also maybe some air inside. I did stand it up to fill it, I am scared to just fill it and plug it because the oil could expand and push the seal out. I will have to give it a good think :-) Hank -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/24/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 8:40 PM Thanks Hank,I am enjoying these reports we are getting.How did the light get water in it? Was the air tube portion of the P trap notlong enough? Or did you not get enough air out of the light bar?The bar I saw taken apart had a lot of nooks & crannies that would be hardto get oil in to. You would probably have to stand the bar on it's end; fill itwith oil & leave it like that over night.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:15 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] gamma' big test dive Today I dove Gamma to 101 feet to test the dome.? It sure is nice to sit up front and cruise the lake bottom. My light worked just fine although it was not needed because it was so light even at 101 feet.? The light took on some water, so I will go with a soft bladder instead of the p trap.? The new trailer was a charm, it is so long that Gamma just slid off with the truck hooked up still. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 20:58:13 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:58:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer In-Reply-To: <20150624083151.1DB1F70F@m0048141.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1435193893.18799.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, I am pretty happy with my surge brakes on my new trailer. It is kinda weird though, just have to get used to them. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/24/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 11:31 AM Hydraulic, since it will see salt water,? just surge brakes --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:18:35 -0400 Brian, What are you doing for trailer brakes? Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Keith,???Not sure where it will actually top out at might be under that number, but those axels can handle more than what they're rated for.? I didn't want to have to make the leap to the 10K because you get into a whole different category of axel, and three axels would restrict my turning ability.? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 04:34:56 -0700 > > > Brian, > yikes that's a bit chunky :-)? I assume your not travelling? far to the launch with only two 7K axels. > Hank-------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 11:39 PM > > About 14 K lbs???;-) > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:00:02 -0700 > > How much will your sub weigh > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/23/15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] My Trailer >? To: "PSubs" >? Received: Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 4:23 PM > >? Getting a great deal on >? 2???- 7000 lb axils? for my trailer! >? I'm hoping my Chevy flat bed will be able to haul it >? !? ? It's 1.5 ton with a 350 plus dualies >? in the rear.???Might have to have the truck >? loaded however, to get enough traction on the boat >? ramp! Brian > >? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >? _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 24 21:03:05 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 18:03:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] controlling gamma Message-ID: <1435194185.11535.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I found today that Cruising a couple feet above the lake bottom is no problem. I travelled at least 1km at the bottom, probably did a couple big circles also :-) The cool thing is, if I am heading nose down and going to hit bottom, I just gun it with full throttle and the nose comes up nicely if I am climbing my vertical thruster pushes it down with ease. One joy stick does it all plus throttle of coarse. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 25 00:09:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 21:09:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] controlling gamma Message-ID: Hank, Did you shoot any video of your dive(s). I know I'm not the only one that would like to see your subs performance (hint, hint). Keith T. hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I found today that Cruising a couple feet above the lake bottom is no problem. I travelled at least 1km at the bottom, probably did a couple big circles also :-) The cool thing is, if I am heading nose down and going to hit bottom, I just gun it with full throttle and the nose comes up nicely if I am climbing my vertical thruster pushes it down with ease. One joy stick does it all plus throttle of coarse. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 25 08:02:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 05:02:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] controlling gamma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435233768.77596.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Keith, Yes I took video with my phone only, lots in fact. I tried sending some out but my phone won't let me. I need to install my video camera, just hasn't been a priority. I will be diving at least twice a week through the summer, so I will get lots of video to share. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/25/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] controlling gamma To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Thursday, June 25, 2015, 12:09 AM Hank, Did you shoot any video of your dive(s). I know I'm not the only one that would like to see your subs performance (hint, hint). Keith T. hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I found today that Cruising a couple feet above the lake bottom is no problem.? I travelled at least 1km at the bottom, probably did a couple big circles also :-)? The cool thing is, if I am heading nose down and going to hit bottom, I just gun it with full throttle and the nose comes up nicely if I am climbing my vertical thruster pushes it down with ease.? One joy stick does it all plus throttle of coarse. >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 25 13:57:28 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 10:57:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] TIG lessons Message-ID: <20150625105728.1DACAC59@m0005309.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 25 17:32:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 17:32:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing Message-ID: Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. The approx. Agenda is: Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST) Project Reviews (9:15-11:30) SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo Project 765 Update: John Kammerer Lunch Dive Reports (1:30PM) Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec Smyth Round Table Discussion (open forum) Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: User Instructions.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 83071 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 26 00:33:10 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 04:33:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve,I'll be listening in.Alan From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. The approx. Agenda is: Convention Opening Comments (9AMEST)Project Reviews (9:15-11:30)SeaQuestor Project Update: DavidColombo Project 765 Update: JohnKammerer ???????? Lunch Dive Reports (1:30PM)Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report:Alec SmythRound Table Discussion (openforum) Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 26 01:25:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 22:25:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> Steve, It would be great to have a brief transcript of the discussions published on the site if possible. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-25-15 9:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing Thanks Steve, I'll be listening in. Alan _____ From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >; PSUBS Member Discussion Group > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. The approx. Agenda is: Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST) Project Reviews (9:15-11:30) SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo Project 765 Update: John Kammerer Lunch Dive Reports (1:30PM) Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec Smyth Round Table Discussion (open forum) Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 27 22:40:12 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 22:40:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 27 23:32:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 20:32:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Proton-A" Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears > for suggested names! > > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 08:19:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 08:19:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Seneca video Message-ID: Here's video of Snoopy at Lake Seneca. Sorry, this one is a bit basic being entirely shot through the viewport. Plus, there's an annoying guy talking to fill in the boring bits. But I think you may appreciate the water itself. This clarity was after days of rain that had "ruined" it. https://vimeo.com/131692448 Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 11:27:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 08:27:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <1435505275.96768.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec. I've been waiting for you to post some pics after that teaser you posted a while back. I have a few questions. How about Woodstock What are the service panels made of ? What is the deck grate made of ? What size are the stern floats ? Do you have 4 saddle tanks ? Can you change the HP tanks with the boat in the water ? What is your total drop weight ? What is the Stainless ? rectangular bar attached to thrusters ? Could you share a drawing of the thruster jettisoning mechanism ? What happened to your conning tower ? Is it for sale ? Thanks Pete -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 9:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: What is this.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38241 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 11:59:07 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 15:59:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Seneca video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2113057252.1809232.1435507147184.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Very nice video!? Incredible that the bottom is completely covered with mussels. Do you know if they are Zebra mussels?Best wishesJuergen Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles schrieb am 7:19 Sonntag, 28.Juni 2015: Here's video of Snoopy at Lake Seneca. Sorry, this one is a bit basic being entirely shot through the viewport. Plus, there's an annoying guy talking to fill in the boring bits. But I think you may appreciate the water itself. This clarity was after days of rain that had "ruined" it. https://vimeo.com/131692448 Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 13:17:27 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:17:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Seneca video In-Reply-To: <2113057252.1809232.1435507147184.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2113057252.1809232.1435507147184.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, I believe they are. Locals told us twenty or thirty years ago the visibility was about five feet, but that now on a good day it can reach a hundred. This video must have been visibility at its worst because there had just been a huge days-long storm. Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Very nice video! > Incredible that the bottom is completely covered with mussels. > Do you know if they are Zebra mussels? > Best wishes > Juergen > > > > Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > schrieb am 7:19 Sonntag, 28.Juni 2015: > > > Here's video of Snoopy at Lake Seneca. Sorry, this one is a bit basic > being entirely shot through the viewport. Plus, there's an annoying guy > talking to fill in the boring bits. But I think you may appreciate the > water itself. This clarity was after days of rain that had "ruined" it. > > https://vimeo.com/131692448 > > > Best, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 13:32:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:32:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435505275.96768.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1435505275.96768.YahooMailBasic@web161402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Pete, Wow, I'll try to answer those! Not sure about Woodstock. How about Naughtylus? The service panels are 1/8" ABS. The bow one will be fiberglass, it has to be stronger. Deck grating is fiberglass molded grating such as is used for catwalks in factories or on oil rigs. The white floats are #714 from http://trawlworks.com/floats.html. Good to 800m! Those are four MBTs. I can change HP tanks in the water. The deck doors behind the coning tower lead to the tanks. Drop weight is variable - just add or remove dumbbell disks as desired. The stainless thruster mount is rectangular tube. Drawing pasted below. This probably requires some explanation... The old coning tower is still here in a corner, but its useless unless you know how to dislocate your shoulder at will. It has an ergonomic problem, I can fit through the opening but I can't put my elbow in front of my body to open or close the hatch, and I'm relatively skinny. I think its only use would be to cut out the viewport seats for recycling them in someone else's tower. Best, Alec [image: Inline image 1] On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Alec. I've been waiting for you to post some pics after that teaser > you posted a while back. > > I have a few questions. > > How about Woodstock > What are the service panels made of ? > What is the deck grate made of ? > What size are the stern floats ? > Do you have 4 saddle tanks ? > Can you change the HP tanks with the boat in the water ? > What is your total drop weight ? > What is the Stainless ? rectangular bar attached to thrusters ? > Could you share a drawing of the thruster jettisoning mechanism ? > What happened to your conning tower ? Is it for sale ? > > Thanks Pete > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 9:40 PM > > Hey everyone, I'm > breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > Alec > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 118913 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 18:02:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 15:02:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 19:46:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 23:46:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1269637304.1594355.1435535218128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec,maybe you could carry on with the "Peanuts" theme & call it "Linus 1000"I have saved your thruster drop dwg but not sure how it works.Can you or Hank explain it. It looks like you undo the nuts & push the bolts outbut the thruster wiring seems to terminates at the end of the bolts.?Are the bolts copper, & conduct current? Is this a Kittredge design? Is this?the rotating thruster?Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different!? The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 19:55:30 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 23:55:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I think I understand it now.The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind thecentral nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the process.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different!? The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 20:33:31 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 17:33:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435538011.83023.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, on Gamma, there are two shafts that rotate from inside. The shafts are threaded into the tail section so it can drop off. Alec's thruster seems to work the same way. In my case the rods not only seal through the hull, but also through the ballast tank. Hank Alan, on another note, I found a nice clear tube for pressure compensating quite by accident. My wife buys garden hoses that are clear and go flat when there is no pressure. I had to repair one and I nicked a 2 foot chunk. My p trap was not successful on my drive. I am not sure if it was the seal or the p trap. I changed the seal to a high pressure seal and put this clear hose on for compensating. Going for a dive on Wednesday and will try it out. I am sure liking Alec's bellows. Hank-------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/28/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Sunday, June 28, 2015, 7:55 PM I think I understand it now.The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind thecentral nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the process.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different!? The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 21:21:11 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 21:21:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Correct! The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When the thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the contact squeezes its O ring. The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O rings and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled the potting is not subject to any pressure. The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if you drop the thruster. The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just three or four turns of a bolt. Best, Alec > On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think I understand it now. > The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the > central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the process. > Alan > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Alec, > Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. > You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The bellows are very nice! > Nice video, you have good control of the sub. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > > Hey everyone, I'm > breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > Alec > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 28 23:40:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 03:40:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1828837681.1663884.1435549232481.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> That's great thanks Alec,I'll save that description with the dwg.Alan From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Correct!? The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When the thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the contact squeezes its O ring. The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O rings and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled the potting is not subject to any pressure. The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if you drop the thruster.? The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just three or four turns of a bolt.? Best, Alec On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think I understand it now.The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind thecentral nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the process.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different!? The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 06:02:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:02:55 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1828837681.1663884.1435549232481.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1828837681.1663884.1435549232481.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, New sub looks great. With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes 7". I was a big fan when I was a kid. https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's great thanks Alec, > I'll save that description with the dwg. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Correct! > > The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two > purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, > but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When the > thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the > rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the > contact squeezes its O ring. > > The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O rings > and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the > contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled the > potting is not subject to any pressure. > > The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if > you drop the thruster. > > The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that > there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off > power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just > three or four turns of a bolt. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I think I understand it now. > The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the > central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the > process. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Alec, > Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! > The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. > You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning > system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The > bellows are very nice! > Nice video, you have good control of the sub. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > > Hey everyone, I'm > breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > Alec > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 06:07:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:07:25 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> References: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> Message-ID: Hi Guys, I watched several of the presentations. Thanks for that. Unfortunately for the later ones, I had messed my password up and it wouldn't let me log back in to message. I couldn't even setup a new account as it wouldn't let me. I heard someone say "james was here earlier but he seems to have gone". I was there, you just didn't know it which was quite frustrating. Anyway, thanks for setting that up, it was very interesting. regards James On 26 June 2015 at 06:25, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > > > > It would be great to have a brief transcript of the discussions published > on the site if possible. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* June-25-15 9:33 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing > > > > Thanks Steve, > > I'll be listening in. > > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < > member-forum at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing > > > > Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical > presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. > > Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. > > The approx. Agenda is: > > Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST) > > Project Reviews (9:15-11:30) > > SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo > > Project 765 Update: John Kammerer > > Lunch > > Dive Reports (1:30PM) > > Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec Smyth > > Round Table Discussion (open forum) > > > > Steve > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 06:52:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:52:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: References: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> Message-ID: <2057549954.1808929.1435575138937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I got up at 4am to find I had miscalculated the time difference:(Was in time to listen to some of John's address, which I was enjoying, but unfortunatelyit stopped streaming. Looking forward to the videos.Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing Hi Guys,?I watched several of the presentations.? Thanks for that.? Unfortunately for the later ones, I had messed my password up and it wouldn't let me log back in to message.? I couldn't even setup a new account as it wouldn't let me.? I heard someone say "james was here earlier but he seems to have gone".? I was there, you just didn't know it which was quite frustrating.? Anyway, thanks for?setting that up, it was very interesting.?regardsJames On 26 June 2015 at 06:25, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,?It would be great to have a brief transcript of the discussions published on the site if possible.?Tim?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: June-25-15 9:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing?Thanks Steve,I'll be listening in.Alan?From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing?Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST.Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in.The approx. Agenda is:Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST)Project Reviews (9:15-11:30)SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo Project 765 Update: John Kammerer ???????? Lunch Dive Reports (1:30PM)Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec SmythRound Table Discussion (open forum)?Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 07:39:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 07:39:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ugh, typo. Where I said "shaft seal" I meant to say "shaft collar". On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Private wrote: > Correct! > > The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two > purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, > but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When the > thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the > rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the > contact squeezes its O ring. > > The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O rings > and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the > contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled the > potting is not subject to any pressure. > > The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if > you drop the thruster. > > The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that > there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off > power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just > three or four turns of a bolt. > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I think I understand it now. > The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the > central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the > process. > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Alec, > Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! > The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. > You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning > system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The > bellows are very nice! > Nice video, you have good control of the sub. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > > Hey everyone, I'm > breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > Alec > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 07:41:14 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:41:14 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1472377077.1594546.1435535730079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1828837681.1663884.1435549232481.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have guessed that when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be surprising. Love the Naughtylus name regards, Antoine On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Alec, > > New sub looks great. With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of > "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes 7". > I was a big fan when I was a kid. > > https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg > > On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> That's great thanks Alec, >> I'll save that description with the dwg. >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> Correct! >> >> The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two >> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, >> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When >> the >> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the >> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the >> contact squeezes its O ring. >> >> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O >> rings >> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the >> contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled >> the >> potting is not subject to any pressure. >> >> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if >> you drop the thruster. >> >> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that >> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off >> power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just >> three or four turns of a bolt. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> I think I understand it now. >> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the >> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the >> process. >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> Alec, >> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! >> The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. >> You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning >> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The >> bellows are very nice! >> Nice video, you have good control of the sub. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >> >> Hey everyone, I'm >> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a >> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not >> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! >> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >> >> >> Best, >> Alec >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 08:48:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:48:15 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question Message-ID: Hi All, Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and from the battery and insulated from the hull. However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal. I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 09:46:01 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 07:46:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> Your electrical system should not be negative grounded, meaning that the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection. A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis. Sean On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All, > >Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >electrically >connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and from the >battery and insulated from the hull. > >However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which >Hank >gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the >chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so >its >actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. > >The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal. > >I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im >not >sure. > >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving >this >weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. > >Thanks >James > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 09:56:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:56:32 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi sean, The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of this new item. But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting bracket. Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat. Regards James On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Your electrical system should not be negative grounded, meaning that the > battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would > be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to > do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero > potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, > since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery > potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through > the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC > ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are > confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be > connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground > point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to > earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise > energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and > serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable > shields to for effective noise rejection. > > A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be > accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and > additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), > because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground > potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery > negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to > break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery > and grounding the chassis. > > Sean > > > On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically >> connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and from the >> battery and insulated from the hull. >> >> However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which >> Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the >> chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its >> actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. >> >> The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal. >> >> I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not >> sure. >> >> I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this >> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 10:38:42 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 08:38:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> Message-ID: <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it. Sean On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi sean, > >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of >this new item. > >But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection >to >the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor is >connected >to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent >connection >to the hull via the mounting bracket. > >Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat. > >Regards >James > >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Your electrical system should not be negative grounded, meaning that >the >> battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it >would >> be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in >part to >> do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and >nonzero >> potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc >safety, >> since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery >> potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current >through >> the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC >> ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are >> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be >> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated >ground >> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short >path to >> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >> energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, >and >> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference >cable >> shields to for effective noise rejection. >> >> A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be >> accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the >hull, and >> additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via >enclosure?), >> because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground >> potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery >> negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the >unit to >> break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the >battery >> and grounding the chassis. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >electrically >>> connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and from >the >>> battery and insulated from the hull. >>> >>> However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor >which >>> Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit >is the >>> chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, >so its >>> actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. >>> >>> The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery >terminal. >>> >>> I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but >im not >>> sure. >>> >>> I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >>> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im >diving this >>> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. >>> >>> Thanks >>> James >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 10:52:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:52:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> Message-ID: The battery negative is not connected to the hull. But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items. So far this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, in the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading. It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull at all. Im going to insulate it. Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic washers. On 29 June 2015 at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You > just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it. > > Sean > > > On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Hi sean, >> >> The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of >> this new item. >> >> But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to >> the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor is connected >> to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection >> to the hull via the mounting bracket. >> >> Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat. >> >> Regards >> James >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Your electrical system should not be neg! ative grounded, meaning that >>> the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it >>> would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in >>> part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and >>> nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc >>> safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either >>> battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current >>> through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include >>> AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are >>> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be >>> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground >>> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to >>> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >>> energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and >>> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable >>> shields to for effective noise rejection. >>> >>> A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be >>> accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and >>> additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), >>> because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground >>> potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery >>> negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to >>> break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery >>> and grounding the chassis. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >>>> electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and >>>> from the battery and insulated from the hull. >>>> >>>> However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which >>>> Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the >>>> chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its >>>> actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. >>>> >>>> The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal. >>>> >>>> I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im >>>> not sure. >>>> >>>> I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >>>> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this >>>> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> James >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 10:57:15 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 07:57:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <20150629075715.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b07ac54ce8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 10:59:36 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:59:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55915D58.2050307@psubs.org> Alec, The floor grating looks composite...is it ABS, Fiberglass? Who was your supplier, I'm having a hard time locating one for non-metallic floor grates. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:05:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:05:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <20150629075715.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b07ac54ce8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20150629075715.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b07ac54ce8.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! > Where did you get the acrylic dome at? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears > for suggested names! > > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > > Alec > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:14:51 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (swaters@waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:14:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:00:24 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 09:00:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> Message-ID: Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it preserves incidental contact safety. Sean On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >The battery negative is not connected to the hull. > >But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, >which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items. So >far >this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, >in >the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, >and >the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull >connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my >voltmeter >across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a >reading. >It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, >but >I don't want any connections to the hull at all. > >Im going to insulate it. Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think >will >do the job, along with some plastic washers. > > > >On 29 June 2015 at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. >You >> just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to >it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi sean, >>> >>> The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis >of >>> this new item. >>> >>> But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent >connection to >>> the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor is >connected >>> to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent >connection >>> to the hull via the mounting bracket. >>> >>> Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat. >>> >>> Regards >>> James >>> >>> On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Your electrical system should not be neg! ative grounded, meaning >that >>>> the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis >as it >>>> would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this >is in >>>> part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular >currents and >>>> nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do >with arc >>>> safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects >either >>>> battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit >current >>>> through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which >include >>>> AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections >which are >>>> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed >be >>>> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated >ground >>>> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short >path to >>>> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >>>> energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, >and >>>> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference >cable >>>> shields to for effective noise rejection. >>>> >>>> A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be >>>> accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the >hull, and >>>> additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via >enclosure?), >>>> because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety >ground >>>> potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the >battery >>>> negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the >unit to >>>> break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the >battery >>>> and grounding the chassis. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >>>>> electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is >wired to and >>>>> from the battery and insulated from the hull. >>>>> >>>>> However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor >which >>>>> Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit >is the >>>>> chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the >hull, so its >>>>> actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. >>>>> >>>>> The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery >terminal. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but >im >>>>> not sure. >>>>> >>>>> I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and >hence >>>>> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im >diving this >>>>> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:23:29 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1269637304.1594355.1435535218128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1435528962.70332.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1269637304.1594355.1435535218128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, has any one suggested "Red Baron" yet? John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Alec, > maybe you could carry on with the "Peanuts" theme & call it "Linus 1000" > I have saved your thruster drop dwg but not sure how it works. > Can you or Hank explain it. It looks like you undo the nuts & push the bolts out > but the thruster wiring seems to terminates at the end of the bolts. > Are the bolts copper, & conduct current? Is this a Kittredge design? Is this > the rotating thruster? > Cheers Alan > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Alec, > Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. > You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The bellows are very nice! > Nice video, you have good control of the sub. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > > Hey everyone, I'm > breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > Alec > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:25:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:25:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Cc: > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd > made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! >> Where did you get the acrylic dome at? >> >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a >> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears >> for suggested names! >> >> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:33:40 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:33:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14e3ff3d061-42b9-25571@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> I'm not fond of grating. It will shred the knees out of a wet suit (never mind the hide off bare knees and feet and hands), and you get to watch anything you drop rattle down out of sight and disappear. Maddening, that. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:45:46 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:45:46 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> Message-ID: Agreed, that would be better. Not sure if its possible. I suppose I could try and find the negative brush and insulate it. I can only assume the negative brush is in contact with the chassis. This is the compressor here.. https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from > its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground > the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it > preserves incidental contact safety. > > Sean > > > On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> The battery negative is not connected to the hull. >> >> But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, >> which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items. So far >> this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, in >> the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and >> the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull >> connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my voltmeter >> across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading. >> It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but >> I don't want any connections to the hull at all. >> >> Im going to insulate it. Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will >> do the job, along with some plastic washers. >> >> >> >> On 29 J! une 2015 at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You >>> just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi sean, >>>> >>>> The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of >>>> this new item. >>>> >>>> But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection >>>> to the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor is >>>> connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent >>>> connection to the hull via the mounting bracket. >>>> >>>> Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> James >>>> >>>> On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Your electrical system should not be neg! ative grounded, meaning that >>>>> the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it >>>>> would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in >>>>> part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and >>>>> nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc >>>>> safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either >>>>> battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current >>>>> through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include >>>>> AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are >>>>> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be >>>>> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground >>>>> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to >>>>> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >>>>> energize equipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and >>>>> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable >>>>> shields to for effective noise rejection. >>>>> >>>>> A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be >>>>> accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and >>>>> additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), >>>>> because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground >>>>> potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery >>>>> negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to >>>>> break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery >>>>> and grounding the chassis. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >>>>>> electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and >>>>>> from the battery and insulated from the hull. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which >>>>>> Hank gave me. Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the >>>>>> chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its >>>>>> actually connected to the hull of the boat as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery >>>>>> terminal. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im >>>>>> not sure. >>>>>> >>>>>> I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >>>>>> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this >>>>>> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> James >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:46:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:46:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14e3fff692e-42b9-2564d@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> Alec, How about SP-1000 (Smyth/Perry). Or 300, if you like it in meters. Of course, if you were French, then it would be Soucoupe Plongeante, but who's counting? Vance -----Original Message----- From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, has any one suggested "Red Baron" yet? John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Thanks Alec, maybe you could carry on with the "Peanuts" theme & call it "Linus 1000" I have saved your thruster drop dwg but not sure how it works. Can you or Hank explain it. It looks like you undo the nuts & push the bolts out but the thruster wiring seems to terminates at the end of the bolts. Are the bolts copper, & conduct current? Is this a Kittredge design? Is this the rotating thruster? Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Alec, Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The bellows are very nice! Nice video, you have good control of the sub. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:52:49 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:52:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14e40055a4e-42b9-256b3@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> Alec, The compensating diaphragms might want rigid, free-flooding tubes to sit in for stability in a seaway, and to protect them from snags and dumb feet. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:54:54 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <14e3ff3d061-42b9-25571@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> References: <14e3ff3d061-42b9-25571@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: I should probably mention this grating is installed upside down. What would normally have been the top layer has very sharp edges (called "meniscus" if I recall correctly) and are intended for someone wearing heavy work boots to get traction. But the underside is smooth-edged. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:33 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I'm not fond of grating. It will shred the knees out of a wet suit (never > mind the hide off bare knees and feet and hands), and you get to watch > anything you drop rattle down out of sight and disappear. Maddening, that. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass > grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you > can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider > openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest >> he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in >>> person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> >>> Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need >>> of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all >>> ears for suggested names! >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 11:57:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:57:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <14e40055a4e-42b9-256b3@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> References: <14e40055a4e-42b9-256b3@webprd-a106.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: Yep, I intend to make a fairing over the thruster mounts for just that reason. I tried 3D-printing one but it was not sturdy enough. Will probably just mill it out of solid UHMW plastic. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:52 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > The compensating diaphragms might want rigid, free-flooding tubes to sit > in for stability in a seaway, and to protect them from snags and dumb feet. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass > grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you > can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider > openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest >> he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in >>> person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> >>> Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need >>> of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all >>> ears for suggested names! >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 12:05:45 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:05:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14e401132cc-960-2670e@webprd-m107.mail.aol.com> I was thinking more about the wash and slosh motions of surface water at sea. If you take the side load off the diaphragm with a very slightly oversized tube, then it would take the side loads off the soft plastic structure. That occasionally violent back and forth motion might cause some hardening over time and fracture in the folds. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:57 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Yep, I intend to make a fairing over the thruster mounts for just that reason. I tried 3D-printing one but it was not sturdy enough. Will probably just mill it out of solid UHMW plastic. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:52 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The compensating diaphragms might want rigid, free-flooding tubes to sit in for stability in a seaway, and to protect them from snags and dumb feet. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! Where did you get the acrylic dome at? Thanks, Scott Waters -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 13:48:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:48:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: Hi Alec, How about "The Equalizer" or "A knot or less". Keith T. Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Alec, >Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have guessed that >when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be surprising. > >Love the Naughtylus name > >regards, >Antoine > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> Hi Alec, >> >> New sub looks great. With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of >> "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes 7". >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. >> >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> That's great thanks Alec, >>> I'll save that description with the dwg. >>> Alan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Correct! >>> >>> The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, >>> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When >>> the >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the >>> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the >>> contact squeezes its O ring. >>> >>> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O >>> rings >>> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the >>> contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled >>> the >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >>> >>> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if >>> you drop the thruster. >>> >>> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that >>> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just >>> three or four turns of a bolt. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> I think I understand it now. >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the >>> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the >>> process. >>> Alan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Alec, >>> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. >>> You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning >>> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. The >>> bellows are very nice! >>> Nice video, you have good control of the sub. >>> Hank >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >>> >>> Hey everyone, I'm >>> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a >>> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not >>> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 15:36:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 19:36:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <98850578-6b6e-42c6-9e54-961df8908385@email.android.com> <11f21b75-0c4f-4d6e-a57d-c62749519b43@email.android.com> Message-ID: <836053038.2258559.1435606560224.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the compressor on.Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question Agreed, that would be better.? Not sure if its possible.? I suppose I could try and find the negative brush and insulate it.? I can only assume the negative brush is in contact with the chassis.?This is the compressor here..?https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The battery negative is not?connected to the hull.? ?But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items.? So far this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated.? However, in the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal.? I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading.? It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull at all.?Im going to insulate it.? Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic washers.?? On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it.Sean On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi sean, The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull.? Only the chassis of this new item.?But?thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the negative terminal.?? The negative wire on the compressor is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting bracket.? ?Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat.?RegardsJames On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery negative potential.? Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my boat.? Everything is wired to and from the battery and insulated from the hull.?However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me.? Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat as well.? ?The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal.?I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really want to start changing it now.?Thanks James? Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 16:43:09 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:43:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question Message-ID: <59t8bip8ohgq6k1tsoydfigx.1435610347083@email.android.com> James, How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at most marine supply stores (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, instantly. Keith T. Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the compressor on.Alan > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > >Agreed, that would be better.? Not sure if its possible.? I suppose I could try and find the negative brush and insulate it.? I can only assume the negative brush is in contact with the chassis.?This is the compressor here..?https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >The battery negative is not?connected to the hull.? ?But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items.? So far this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated.? However, in the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal.? I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading.? It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull at all.?Im going to insulate it.? Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic washers.?? >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi sean, >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull.? Only the chassis of this new item.?But?thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the negative terminal.?? The negative wire on the compressor is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting bracket.? ?Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat.?RegardsJames >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery negative potential.? Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean > >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,?Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my boat.? Everything is wired to and from the battery and insulated from the hull.?However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me.? Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat as well.? ?The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal.?I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really want to start changing it now.?Thanks >James? >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 17:10:22 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 17:10:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "A knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest sluggishness to me, but I think this little boat will move. My wife is suggesting "Shackleton" since I really like the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in the lead, but I'm still pondering it. If she were a one-person, I would name her "Batchelors Delight" after a pirate ship that I think had the best name of all time. Yesterday I did something I hadn't done in a long time, and actually looked at a list of baby names. This is fun. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > > How about "The Equalizer" or "A knot or less". > > Keith T. > > Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > >Hi Alec, > >Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have guessed that > >when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be surprising. > > > >Love the Naughtylus name > > > >regards, > >Antoine > > > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> Hi Alec, > >> > >> New sub looks great. With those ball floats at the back it reminded me > of > >> "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes > 7". > >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. > >> > >> > https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg > >> > >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >>> That's great thanks Alec, > >>> I'll save that description with the dwg. > >>> Alan > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM > >>> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >>> > >>> Correct! > >>> > >>> The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two > >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the > thruster, > >>> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When > >>> the > >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above > the > >>> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the > >>> contact squeezes its O ring. > >>> > >>> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O > >>> rings > >>> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the > >>> contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled > >>> the > >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. > >>> > >>> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if > >>> you drop the thruster. > >>> > >>> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is > that > >>> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch > off > >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is > just > >>> three or four turns of a bolt. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Alec > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> I think I understand it now. > >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the > >>> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the > >>> process. > >>> Alan > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >>> > >>> Alec, > >>> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! > >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, > Manatee. > >>> You sure have put in a lot of time on this. I like the jettisoning > >>> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean. > The > >>> bellows are very nice! > >>> Nice video, you have good control of the sub. > >>> Hank > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >>> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > >>> > >>> Hey everyone, I'm > >>> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a > >>> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not > >>> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! > >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Alec > >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 17:52:52 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:52:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435614772.28274.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape. Manatee's also have a great nature. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM "A knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest sluggishness to me, but I think this little boat will move. My wife is suggesting "Shackleton" since I really like the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in the lead, but I'm still pondering it.?If she were a one-person, I would name her "Batchelors Delight" after a pirate ship that I think had the best name of all time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't done in a long time, and actually looked at a list of baby names. This is fun. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi? ? ? Alec, How about "The Equalizer" or "A knot or less". Keith T. Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Alec, >Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have guessed that >when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be surprising. > >Love the Naughtylus name > >regards, >Antoine > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> Hi Alec, >> >> New sub looks great.? With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of >> "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes 7". >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. >> >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> That's great thanks Alec, >>> I'll save that description with the dwg. >>> Alan >>> >>>? ?------------------------------ >>>? *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Correct! >>> >>> The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, >>> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When >>> the >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the >>> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the >>> contact squeezes its O ring. >>> >>> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O >>> rings >>> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the >>> contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled >>> the >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >>> >>> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if >>> you drop the thruster. >>> >>> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that >>> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just >>> three or four turns of a bolt. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> I think I understand it now. >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the >>> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the >>> process. >>> Alan >>> >>>? ?------------------------------ >>>? *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Alec, >>> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. >>> You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning >>> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The >>> bellows are very nice! >>> Nice video, you have good control of the sub. >>> Hank >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >>> >>> Hey everyone, I'm >>> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a >>> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not >>> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>? _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 18:05:53 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:05:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435614772.28274.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435615553.30495.YahooMailBasic@web161401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So I claim that name. Pete -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM A Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape.? Manatee's also have a great nature. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM "A knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest sluggishness to me, but I think this little boat will move. My wife is suggesting "Shackleton" since I really like the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in the lead, but I'm still pondering it.?If she were a one-person, I would name her "Batchelors Delight" after a pirate ship that I think had the best name of all time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't done in a long time, and actually looked at a list of baby names. This is fun. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi? ? ? Alec, How about "The Equalizer" or "A knot or less". Keith T. Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Alec, >Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have guessed that >when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be surprising. > >Love the Naughtylus name > >regards, >Antoine > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> Hi Alec, >> >> New sub looks great.? With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of >> "The Liberator" from an old BBC science fiction program called "Blakes 7". >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. >> >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> That's great thanks Alec, >>> I'll save that description with the dwg. >>> Alan >>> >>>? ?------------------------------ >>>? *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Correct! >>> >>> The little O ring under the threaded contacts on the hull side has two >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub if you drop the thruster, >>> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When >>> the >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks out very slightly above the >>> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the motor toward the sub the >>> contact squeezes its O ring. >>> >>> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon insert sealed with O >>> rings >>> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On the thruster side the >>> contacts and cables are potted, but because the thruster is oil filled >>> the >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >>> >>> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it being pushed into the sub if >>> you drop the thruster. >>> >>> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The benefit of this design is that >>> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - you just need to switch off >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, and the dropping itself is just >>> three or four turns of a bolt. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> I think I understand it now. >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls & you wind the >>> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics would unplug in the >>> process. >>> Alan >>> >>>? ?------------------------------ >>>? *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> >>> Alec, >>> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I see your new build is, Manatee. >>> You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I like the jettisoning >>> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The >>> bellows are very nice! >>> Nice video, you have good control of the sub. >>> Hank >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Received: Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >>> >>> Hey everyone, I'm >>> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of a >>> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not >>> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>? _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 18:24:26 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:24:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435615553.30495.YahooMailBasic@web161401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1435614772.28274.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1435615553.30495.YahooMailBasic@web161401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1784269296.2372356.1435616666748.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> What about "Obama" seeing you come from the Capitol City.What color are you painting it?Alan From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So I claim that name. Pete -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM A Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape.? Manatee's also have a great nature. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub ? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM ? ? "A knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest ? sluggishness to me, but I think this little boat will move. ? My wife is suggesting "Shackleton" since I really ? like the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in ? the lead, but I'm still pondering it.?If she were a ? one-person, I would name her "Batchelors Delight" ? after a pirate ship that I think had the best name of all ? time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't done in a ? long time, and actually looked at a list of baby names. This ? is fun. ? ? On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at ? 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: ? Hi? ? ? ? Alec, ? ? ? How about "The Equalizer" or "A knot or less". ? ? ? ? Keith T. ? ? Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: ? ? ? ? >Hi Alec, ? ? >Very nice sub with manly attributes. I would never have ? guessed that ? ? >when you mentioned a while ago that the stern would be ? surprising. ? > ? ? >Love the Naughtylus name ? ? > ? ? >regards, ? ? >Antoine ? > ? >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles ? ? > ? wrote: ? >> Hi Alec, ? >> ? ? >> New sub looks great.? With those ball floats at the back it reminded me of ? ? >> "The Liberator" from an old BBC science ? fiction program called "Blakes 7". ? >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. ? >> ? ? >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg ? ? >> ? >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan James via ? Personal_Submersibles < ? ? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? wrote: ? >> ? ? >>> That's great thanks Alec, ? ? >>> I'll save that description with the dwg. ? >>> Alan ? >>> ? >>>? ?------------------------------ ? ? >>>? *From:* Private via Personal_Submersibles ? < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? ? >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General ? Discussion < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? ? >>> *Sent:* Monday, ? June 29, 2015 1:21 PM ? ? >>> ? ? >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new ? sub ? ? >>> ? ? >>> Correct! ? ? >>> ? ? >>> The little O ring under the threaded contacts ? on the hull side has two ? >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the sub ? if you drop the thruster, ? ? >>> but it also acts as a spring to maintain good electrical contact. When ? >>> the ? >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks ? out very slightly above the ? >>> rest of the penetrator, so when you draw the ? motor toward the sub the ? ? >>> contact squeezes its O ring. ? >>> ? ? >>> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon ? insert sealed with O ? ? >>> rings ? ? >>> and locked by a shoulder in the SS insert. On ? the thruster side the ? ? >>> contacts and cables are potted, but because the ? thruster is oil filled ? >>> the ? >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. ? ? >>> ? ? >>> The bolt has a shaft seal that prevents it ? being pushed into the sub if ? >>> you drop the thruster. ? ? >>> ? ? >>> The thrusters are fixed, not rotating. The ? benefit of this design is that ? ? >>> there are neither cables nor tubes to sever - ? you just need to switch off ? >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, and ? the dropping itself is just ? ? >>> three or four turns of a bolt. ? >>> ? ? >>> Best, ? ? >>> ? ? >>> Alec ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James ? via Personal_Submersibles < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? wrote: ? >>> ? ? >>> I think I understand it now. ? ? >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical through hulls ? & you wind the ? ? >>> central nut to push the unit off. The electrics ? would unplug in the ? >>> process. ? >>> Alan ? >>> ? >>>? ?------------------------------ ? ? >>>? *From:* hank pronk via ? Personal_Submersibles < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? ? >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? ? >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 10:02 AM ? >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new ? sub ? >>> ? ? >>> Alec, ? ? >>> Nice project, I like the trawl floats in the back, it is so different! ? >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I see ? your new build is, Manatee. ? ? >>> You sure have put in a lot of time on this.? I ? like the jettisoning ? ? >>> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's tail, very simple and clean.? The ? ? >>> bellows are very nice! ? ? >>> Nice video, you have good control of the ? sub. ? ? >>> Hank ? ? >>> -------------------------------------------- ? ? >>> On Sat, 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? wrote: ? >>> ? ? >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub ? >>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < ? ? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> ? ? >>> Received: ? Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM ? ? >>> ? ? >>> Hey ? everyone, I'm ? ? >>> breaking cover with the project sub. It is in ? need of a ? >>> name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that ? are not ? >>> rude, I'm all ears for suggested names! ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> Best, ? ? >>> Alec ? ? >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> _______________________________________________ ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>>? _______________________________________________ ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> _______________________________________________ ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >>> _______________________________________________ ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> >_______________________________________________ ? ? >Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ? _______________________________________________ ? Personal_Submersibles mailing list ? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 18:37:32 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:37:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: References: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> Message-ID: James, thanks for the feedback. Sorry you had some hick ups. It was an initial attempt at exploring remote access to a portion of the convention. There are probably better ways to do it but this was a look at one of them. Steve On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 6:07 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I watched several of the presentations. Thanks for that. Unfortunately > for the later ones, I had messed my password up and it wouldn't let me log > back in to message. I couldn't even setup a new account as it wouldn't let > me. I heard someone say "james was here earlier but he seems to have > gone". I was there, you just didn't know it which was quite frustrating. > Anyway, thanks for setting that up, it was very interesting. > > regards > James > > On 26 June 2015 at 06:25, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> >> >> It would be great to have a brief transcript of the discussions published >> on the site if possible. >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan James via >> Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* June-25-15 9:33 PM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing >> >> >> >> Thanks Steve, >> >> I'll be listening in. >> >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < >> member-forum at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing >> >> >> >> Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical >> presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. >> >> Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. >> >> The approx. Agenda is: >> >> Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST) >> >> Project Reviews (9:15-11:30) >> >> SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo >> >> Project 765 Update: John Kammerer >> >> Lunch >> >> Dive Reports (1:30PM) >> >> Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec Smyth >> >> Round Table Discussion (open forum) >> >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 18:38:20 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <10psgf21f8dtfidb0h9w428e.1435617193341@email.android.com> Ok how about "malstrom" or "vortex", perhaps "silent running". I was always going to name my boat "lucky duck" but chose to keep her name "Arcturus", which means bear hunter, and is a star in the constellation Ursa Minor, or little bear. Keith T. Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >What about "Obama" seeing you come from the Capitol City.What color are you painting it?Alan > From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So I claim that name. > >Pete >-------------------------------------------- >On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM > > > A > Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape.? > Manatee's also have a great nature. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >? To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >? Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM >? >? "A > > knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest >? sluggishness to me, but I think this little > boat will move. >? My wife is suggesting > "Shackleton" since I really >? like > the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in >? the lead, but I'm still pondering it.?If > she were a >? one-person, I would name her > "Batchelors Delight" >? after a > pirate ship that I think had the best name of all >? time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't > done in a >? long time, and actually looked at > a list of baby names. This >? is fun. >? >? On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at >? 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: >? Hi? ? >? ? Alec, >? > > >? >? How about "The > Equalizer" or "A knot or > > less". >? >? >? >? Keith T. > > >? >? > > Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: >? >? >? >? >Hi Alec, >? >? >Very nice sub with manly > attributes. I would never have >? guessed > that >? >? >when you > mentioned a while ago that the stern would be >? surprising. >? > > > >? >? >Love the > Naughtylus name >? >? > >? >? >regards, >? >? >Antoine > > >? > >? > > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >? >? > >? wrote: >? > > >> Hi Alec, >? > > >> >? >? >> New sub > looks great.? With those ball floats at > > the back it reminded me of >? >? >> "The Liberator" from an old > BBC science >? fiction program called > "Blakes 7". >? > > >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. > > >? >> >? >? >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >? >? >> > > >? >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan > James via >? Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >> >? >? >>> > That's great thanks Alec, >? >? >>> I'll save that description > with the dwg. >? > > >>> Alan >? > > >>> >? > > >>>? ?------------------------------ >? >? >>>? *From:* > Private via Personal_Submersibles >? < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *To:* Personal > Submersibles General >? Discussion < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *Sent:* > Monday, >? June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >? >? >>> >? >? >>> *Subject:* Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new >? sub >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Correct! >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The little O > ring under the threaded contacts >? on the > hull side has two >? > > >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the > sub >? if you drop the thruster, >? >? >>> but it also > acts as a spring to maintain good > > electrical contact. When >? > > >>> the >? > > >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks >? out very slightly above the > > >? >>> rest of the penetrator, so > when you draw the >? motor toward the sub > the >? >? >>> contact > squeezes its O ring. >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon >? insert sealed with O >? >? >>> rings >? >? >>> and locked by a shoulder in the > SS insert. On >? the thruster side the >? >? >>> contacts and > cables are potted, but because the >? thruster > is oil filled >? > > >>> the >? > > >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The bolt has a > shaft seal that prevents it >? being pushed > into the sub if >? > > >>> you drop the thruster. >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The thrusters are fixed, not > rotating. The >? benefit of this design is > that >? >? >>> there > are neither cables nor tubes to sever - >? you > just need to switch off >? > > >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, > and >? the dropping itself is just >? >? >>> three or four > turns of a bolt. >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Best, >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Alec >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> On Jun 28, > 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James >? via > Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > I think I understand it now. >? >? >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical > through hulls >? & you wind the >? >? >>> central nut to > push the unit off. The electrics >? would > unplug in the >? > > >>> process. >? > > >>> Alan >? > > >>> >? > > >>>? ?------------------------------ >? >? >>>? *From:* hank > pronk via >? Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *To:* Personal > Submersibles General Discussion >? < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *Sent:* Monday, > June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >? > > >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's > new >? sub >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Alec, >? >? >>> Nice > project, I like the trawl floats in the > > back, it is so different! >? > > >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I > see >? your new build is, Manatee. >? >? >>> You sure have > put in a lot of time on this.? I >? like the > jettisoning >? >? >>> > system, it is the same idea as Gamma's > > tail, very simple and clean.? The >? >? >>> bellows are very nice! >? >? >>> Nice video, you > have good control of the >? sub. >? >? >>> Hank >? >? >>> > -------------------------------------------- >? >? >>> On Sat, > 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > >? >>> To: > > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> Received: >? Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Hey >? everyone, I'm >? >? >>> breaking cover with the project > sub. It is in >? need of a > > >? >>> name. If the pictures inspire > any thoughts that >? are not > > >? >>> rude, I'm all ears for > suggested names! >? > > >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Best, >? >? >>> Alec >? >? >>> -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- >? > > >>> >? > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>>? > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >> > > > > >_______________________________________________ >? >? >Personal_Submersibles > mailing list >? >? >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >? > > _______________________________________________ >? >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list >? >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >? > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >? > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 19:20:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:20:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <1435620018.2666.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec, What is this ? Pete -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:38 PM Ok how about "malstrom" or "vortex", perhaps "silent running". I was always going to name my boat "lucky duck" but chose to keep her name "Arcturus", which means bear hunter, and is a star in the constellation Ursa Minor, or little bear. Keith T. Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >What about "Obama" seeing you come from the Capitol City.What color are you painting it?Alan >? ? ? From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >??? >I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So I claim that name. > >Pete >-------------------------------------------- >On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM > > > A > Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape.? > Manatee's also have a great nature. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >? Subject: Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >? To: > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >? Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM >? >? "A > > knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest >? sluggishness to me, but I think this little > boat will move. >? My wife is suggesting > "Shackleton" since I really >? like > the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in >? the lead, but I'm still pondering it.?If > she were a >? one-person, I would name her > "Batchelors Delight" >? after a > pirate ship that I think had the best name of all >? time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't > done in a >? long time, and actually looked at > a list of baby names. This >? is fun. >? >? On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at >? 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: >? Hi? ? >? ? Alec, >? > > >? >? How about "The > Equalizer" or "A knot or > > less". >? >? >? >? Keith T. > > >? >? > > Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles >? wrote: >? >? >? >? >Hi Alec, >? >? >Very nice sub with manly > attributes. I would never have >? guessed > that >? >? >when you > mentioned a while ago that the stern would be >? surprising. >? > > > >? >? >Love the > Naughtylus name >? >? > >? >? >regards, >? >? >Antoine > > >? > >? > > >On 6/29/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >? >? > >? wrote: >? > > >> Hi Alec, >? > > >> >? >? >> New sub > looks great.? With those ball floats at > > the back it reminded me of >? >? >> "The Liberator" from an old > BBC science >? fiction program called > "Blakes 7". >? > > >> I was a big fan when I was a kid. > > >? >> >? >? >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >? >? >> > > >? >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan > James via >? Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >> >? >? >>> > That's great thanks Alec, >? >? >>> I'll save that description > with the dwg. >? > > >>> Alan >? > > >>> >? > > >>>? ?------------------------------ >? >? >>>? *From:* > Private via Personal_Submersibles >? < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *To:* Personal > Submersibles General >? Discussion < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *Sent:* > Monday, >? June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >? >? >>> >? >? >>> *Subject:* Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new >? sub >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Correct! >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The little O > ring under the threaded contacts >? on the > hull side has two >? > > >>> purposes. It prevents water coming into the > sub >? if you drop the thruster, >? >? >>> but it also > acts as a spring to maintain good > > electrical contact. When >? > > >>> the >? > > >>> thruster is off, the sub side contact sticks >? out very slightly above the > > >? >>> rest of the penetrator, so > when you draw the >? motor toward the sub > the >? >? >>> contact > squeezes its O ring. >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon >? insert sealed with O >? >? >>> rings >? >? >>> and locked by a shoulder in the > SS insert. On >? the thruster side the >? >? >>> contacts and > cables are potted, but because the >? thruster > is oil filled >? > > >>> the >? > > >>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The bolt has a > shaft seal that prevents it >? being pushed > into the sub if >? > > >>> you drop the thruster. >? >? >>> >? >? >>> The thrusters are fixed, not > rotating. The >? benefit of this design is > that >? >? >>> there > are neither cables nor tubes to sever - >? you > just need to switch off >? > > >>> power to the thruster before dropping it, > and >? the dropping itself is just >? >? >>> three or four > turns of a bolt. >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Best, >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Alec >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> On Jun 28, > 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James >? via > Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > I think I understand it now. >? >? >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical > through hulls >? & you wind the >? >? >>> central nut to > push the unit off. The electrics >? would > unplug in the >? > > >>> process. >? > > >>> Alan >? > > >>> >? > > >>>? ?------------------------------ >? >? >>>? *From:* hank > pronk via >? Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *To:* Personal > Submersibles General Discussion >? < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> *Sent:* Monday, > June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >? > > >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's > new >? sub >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Alec, >? >? >>> Nice > project, I like the trawl floats in the > > back, it is so different! >? > > >>> The first thing that comes to mind when I > see >? your new build is, Manatee. >? >? >>> You sure have > put in a lot of time on this.? I >? like the > jettisoning >? >? >>> > system, it is the same idea as Gamma's > > tail, very simple and clean.? The >? >? >>> bellows are very nice! >? >? >>> Nice video, you > have good control of the >? sub. >? >? >>> Hank >? >? >>> > -------------------------------------------- >? >? >>> On Sat, > 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via > > Personal_Submersibles < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? wrote: >? > > >>> >? >? >>> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > >? >>> To: > > "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >? >? >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >? >? >>> Received: >? Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Hey >? everyone, I'm >? >? >>> breaking cover with the project > sub. It is in >? need of a > > >? >>> name. If the pictures inspire > any thoughts that >? are not > > >? >>> rude, I'm all ears for > suggested names! >? > > >>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> Best, >? >? >>> Alec >? >? >>> -----Inline > Attachment Follows----- >? > > >>> >? > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>>? > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >>> > > _______________________________________________ >? >? >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? >? >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >>> >? >? >>> >? >? >> > > > > >_______________________________________________ >? >? >Personal_Submersibles > mailing list >? >? >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >? > > _______________________________________________ >? >? Personal_Submersibles > mailing list >? >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >? >? > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >? > > _______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: What is this.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38241 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 19:33:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 19:33:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1784269296.2372356.1435616666748.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1435614772.28274.YahooMailBasic@web125401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1435615553.30495.YahooMailBasic@web161401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1784269296.2372356.1435616666748.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5591D5BD.6010201@psubs.org> When you decide on a name, check www.subdb.info to see if it's already been taken. You might also look there for some inspiration. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 21:26:55 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435620018.2666.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1435620018.2666.YahooMailBasic@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74B5950E-44C5-495F-8213-E3A888A32B26@gmail.com> Sorry Pete, I'm not getting it... What is what? > On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:20 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, What is this ? > > Pete > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/29/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:38 PM > > Ok how about "malstrom" or "vortex", > perhaps "silent running". I was always going to name my boat > "lucky duck" but chose to keep her name "Arcturus", which > means bear hunter, and is a star in the constellation Ursa > Minor, or little bear. > > Keith T. > > Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> What about "Obama" seeing you come from the Capitol > City.What color are you painting it?Alan >> From: Pete Niedermayr via > Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So > I claim that name. >> >> Pete >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM >> >> >> A >> Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape. >> Manatee's also have a great nature. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> To: >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM >> >> "A >> >> knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest >> sluggishness to me, but I think this little >> boat will move. >> My wife is suggesting >> "Shackleton" since I really >> like >> the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in >> the lead, but I'm still pondering it. If >> she were a >> one-person, I would name her >> "Batchelors Delight" >> after a >> pirate ship that I think had the best name of all >> time. Yesterday I did something I hadn't >> done in a >> long time, and actually looked at >> a list of baby names. This >> is fun. >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at >> 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> Hi >> Alec, >> >> >> >> >> How about "The >> Equalizer" or "A knot or >> >> less". >> >> >> >> Keith T. >> >> >> >> >> >> Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Hi Alec, >> >> >Very nice sub with manly >> attributes. I would never have >> guessed >> that >> >> >when you >> mentioned a while ago that the stern would be >> surprising. >> >> >> >> >Love the >> Naughtylus name >> >> > >> >> >regards, >> >> >Antoine >> >> >> > >> >> >>> On 6/29/15, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles >> >> > >> wrote: >> >> >>>> Hi Alec, >> >> >> >> >> New sub >> looks great. With those ball floats at >> >> the back it reminded me of >> >> >> "The Liberator" from an old >> BBC science >> fiction program called >> "Blakes 7". >> >> >>>> I was a big fan when I was a kid. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan >> James via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >> That's great thanks Alec, >> >> >>> I'll save that description >> with the dwg. >> >> >>>>> Alan >> >> >> >> >>>>> ------------------------------ >> >> >>> *From:* >> Private via Personal_Submersibles >> < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >>> *To:* Personal >> Submersibles General >> Discussion < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >>> *Sent:* >> Monday, >> June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >> >> >>> >> >> >>> *Subject:* Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new >> sub >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Correct! >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The little O >> ring under the threaded contacts >> on the >> hull side has two >> >> >>>>> purposes. It prevents water coming into > the >> sub >> if you drop the thruster, >> >> >>> but it also >> acts as a spring to maintain good >> >> electrical contact. When >> >> >>>>> the >> >> >>>>> thruster is off, the sub side contact > sticks >> out very slightly above the >> >> >> >>> rest of the penetrator, so >> when you draw the >> motor toward the sub >> the >> >> >>> contact >> squeezes its O ring. >> >> >> >> >>> >> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon >> insert sealed with O >> >> >>> rings >> >> >>> and locked by a shoulder in the >> SS insert. On >> the thruster side the >> >> >>> contacts and >> cables are potted, but because the >> thruster >> is oil filled >> >> >>>>> the >> >> >>>>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The bolt has a >> shaft seal that prevents it >> being pushed >> into the sub if >> >> >>>>> you drop the thruster. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The thrusters are fixed, not >> rotating. The >> benefit of this design is >> that >> >> >>> there >> are neither cables nor tubes to sever - >> you >> just need to switch off >> >> >>>>> power to the thruster before dropping it, >> and >> the dropping itself is just >> >> >>> three or four >> turns of a bolt. >> >> >> >> >>> >> Best, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Alec >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Jun 28, >> 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James >> via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >> I think I understand it now. >> >> >>> The 2 bolts are the electrical >> through hulls >> & you wind the >> >> >>> central nut to >> push the unit off. The electrics >> would >> unplug in the >> >> >>>>> process. >> >> >>>>> Alan >> >> >> >> >>>>> ------------------------------ >> >> >>> *From:* hank >> pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >>> *To:* Personal >> Submersibles General Discussion >> < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >>> *Sent:* Monday, >> June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >> >> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's >> new >> sub >> >> >> >> >>> >> Alec, >> >> >>> Nice >> project, I like the trawl floats in the >> >> back, it is so different! >> >> >>>>> The first thing that comes to mind when I >> see >> your new build is, Manatee. >> >> >>> You sure have >> put in a lot of time on this. I >> like the >> jettisoning >> >> >>> >> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's >> >> tail, very simple and clean. The >> >> >>> bellows are very nice! >> >> >>> Nice video, you >> have good control of the >> sub. >> >> >>> Hank >> >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> On Sat, >> 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via >> >> Personal_Submersibles < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> >> >>> To: >> >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >>> Received: >> Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hey >> everyone, I'm >> >> >>> breaking cover with the project >> sub. It is in >> need of a >> >> >> >>> name. If the pictures inspire >> any thoughts that >> are not >> >> >> >>> rude, I'm all ears for >> suggested names! >> >> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Best, >> >> >>> Alec >> >> >>> -----Inline >> Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >> >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 21:54:25 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:54:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <74B5950E-44C5-495F-8213-E3A888A32B26@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1435629265.70392.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> In the attached photo the arrow points to what looks like a white tank between the pressure hull and the deck -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/29/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 8:26 PM Sorry Pete, I'm not getting it... What is what? > On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:20 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, What is this ? > > Pete > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/29/15, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:38 PM > > Ok how about "malstrom" or "vortex", > perhaps "silent running". I was always going to name my boat > "lucky duck" but chose to keep her name "Arcturus", which > means bear hunter, and is a star in the constellation Ursa > Minor, or little bear. > > Keith T. > > Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> What about "Obama" seeing you come from the Capitol > City.What color are you painting it?Alan >>? ? ???From: Pete Niedermayr via > Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>? ? >> I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) . So > I claim that name. >> >> Pete >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM >> >> >> A >> Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in shape. >> Manatee's also have a great nature. >> Hank >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>???Subject: Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >>???To: >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>???Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:10 PM >>??? >>???"A >> >> knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest >>???sluggishness to me, but I think this little >> boat will move. >>???My wife is suggesting >> "Shackleton" since I really >>???like >> the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in >>???the lead, but I'm still pondering it. If >> she were a >>???one-person, I would name her >> "Batchelors Delight" >>???after a >> pirate ship that I think had the best name of all >>???time.? Yesterday I did something I hadn't >> done in a >>???long time, and actually looked at >> a list of baby names. This >>???is fun. >>??? >>???On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at >>???1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles >>???wrote: >>???Hi??? >>? ???Alec, >>??? >> >> >>??? >>???How about "The >> Equalizer" or "A knot or >> >> less". >>??? >>??? >>??? >>???Keith T. >> >> >>??? >>??? >> >> Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles >>???wrote: >>??? >>??? >>??? >>???>Hi Alec, >>??? >>???>Very nice sub with manly >> attributes. I would never have >>???guessed >> that >>??? >>???>when you >> mentioned a while ago that the stern would be >>???surprising. >>??? >> >>??? >>???>Love the >> Naughtylus name >>??? >>???> >>??? >>???>regards, >>??? >>???>Antoine >> >> >>???> >>??? >> >>> On 6/29/15, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles >>??? >>???> >>???wrote: >>??? >> >>>> Hi Alec, >>??? >> >>??? >>???>> New sub >> looks great.? With those ball floats at >> >> the back it reminded me of >>??? >>???>> "The Liberator" from an old >> BBC science >>???fiction program called >> "Blakes 7". >>??? >> >>>> I was a big fan when I was a kid. >> >> >>???>> >>??? >>???>> https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg >>??? >>???>> >> >> >>???>> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, Alan >> James via >>???Personal_Submersibles < >>??? >>???>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>???wrote: >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> That's great thanks Alec, >>??? >>???>>> I'll save that description >> with the dwg. >>??? >> >>>>> Alan >>??? >> >>??? >> >>>>>? ? ------------------------------ >>??? >>???>>>? *From:* >> Private via Personal_Submersibles >>???< >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>??? >>???>>> *To:* Personal >> Submersibles General >>???Discussion < >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>??? >>???>>> *Sent:* >> Monday, >>???June 29, 2015 1:21 PM >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> *Subject:* Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new >>???sub >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> Correct! >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> The little O >> ring under the threaded contacts >>???on the >> hull side has two >>??? >> >>>>> purposes. It prevents water coming into > the >> sub >>???if you drop the thruster, >>??? >>???>>> but it also >> acts as a spring to maintain good >> >> electrical contact. When >>??? >> >>>>> the >>??? >> >>>>> thruster is off, the sub side contact > sticks >>???out very slightly above the >> >> >>???>>> rest of the penetrator, so >> when you draw the >>???motor toward the sub >> the >>??? >>???>>> contact >> squeezes its O ring. >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon >>???insert sealed with O >>??? >>???>>> rings >>??? >>???>>> and locked by a shoulder in the >> SS insert. On >>???the thruster side the >>??? >>???>>> contacts and >> cables are potted, but because the >>???thruster >> is oil filled >>??? >> >>>>> the >>??? >> >>>>> potting is not subject to any pressure. >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> The bolt has a >> shaft seal that prevents it >>???being pushed >> into the sub if >>??? >> >>>>> you drop the thruster. >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> The thrusters are fixed, not >> rotating. The >>???benefit of this design is >> that >>??? >>???>>> there >> are neither cables nor tubes to sever - >>???you >> just need to switch off >>??? >> >>>>> power to the thruster before dropping it, >> and >>???the dropping itself is just >>??? >>???>>> three or four >> turns of a bolt. >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> Best, >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> Alec >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> On Jun 28, >> 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James >>???via >> Personal_Submersibles < >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>???wrote: >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> I think I understand it now. >>??? >>???>>> The 2 bolts are the electrical >> through hulls >>???& you wind the >>??? >>???>>> central nut to >> push the unit off. The electrics >>???would >> unplug in the >>??? >> >>>>> process. >>??? >> >>>>> Alan >>??? >> >>??? >> >>>>>? ? ------------------------------ >>??? >>???>>>? *From:* hank >> pronk via >>???Personal_Submersibles < >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>??? >>???>>> *To:* Personal >> Submersibles General Discussion >>???< >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>??? >>???>>> *Sent:* Monday, >> June 29, 2015 10:02 AM >>??? >> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's >> new >>???sub >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> Alec, >>??? >>???>>> Nice >> project, I like the trawl floats in the >> >> back, it is so different! >>??? >> >>>>> The first thing that comes to mind when I >> see >>???your new build is, Manatee. >>??? >>???>>> You sure have >> put in a lot of time on this.? I >>???like the >> jettisoning >>??? >>???>>> >> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's >> >> tail, very simple and clean.? The >>??? >>???>>> bellows are very nice! >>??? >>???>>> Nice video, you >> have good control of the >>???sub. >>??? >>???>>> Hank >>??? >>???>>> >> -------------------------------------------- >>??? >>???>>> On Sat, >> 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via >> >> Personal_Submersibles < >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>???wrote: >>??? >> >>??? >>???>>> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub >> >> >>???>>> To: >> >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>??? >>???>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>??? >>???>>> Received: >>???Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> Hey >>???everyone, I'm >>??? >>???>>> breaking cover with the project >> sub. It is in >>???need of a >> >> >>???>>> name. If the pictures inspire >> any thoughts that >>???are not >> >> >>???>>> rude, I'm all ears for >> suggested names! >>??? >> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> Best, >>??? >>???>>> Alec >>??? >>???>>> -----Inline >> Attachment Follows----- >>??? >> >>??? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>??? >>???>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>??? >>???>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>??? >>???>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>??? >>???>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>??? >>???>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>>> >>??? >>???>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???>Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >>??? >>???>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>??? >>??? >> >> _______________________________________________ >>??? >>???Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list >>??? >>???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>??? >>???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >>??? >>??? >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>??? >> >> _______________________________________________ >>???Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>???Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>???http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>??? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 21:58:22 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:58:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <1435629265.70392.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <74B5950E-44C5-495F-8213-E3A888A32B26@gmail.com> <1435629265.70392.YahooMailBasic@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not receiving the attachments, perhaps they are too big for the mail list or something. But if you see something looking like a tank between the hull and deck, chances are its one of the PVC tubes that hold the trawl floats for adjusting buoyancy. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > In the attached photo the arrow points to what looks like a white tank > between the pressure hull and the deck > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/29/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 8:26 PM > > Sorry Pete, I'm not getting it... > What is what? > > > > > On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:20 PM, Pete Niedermayr via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > Alec, What is this ? > > > > Pete > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 6/29/15, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 5:38 PM > > > > Ok how about "malstrom" or "vortex", > > perhaps "silent running". I was always going to name my > boat > > "lucky duck" but chose to keep her name "Arcturus", > which > > means bear hunter, and is a star in the constellation > Ursa > > Minor, or little bear. > > > > Keith T. > > > > Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > >> What about "Obama" seeing you come from the > Capitol > > City.What color are you painting it?Alan > >> From: Pete > Niedermayr via > > Personal_Submersibles > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:05 AM > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >> > >> I'm calling my boat "George" (if I ever build it ) > . So > > I claim that name. > >> > >> Pete > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> On Mon, 6/29/15, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > >> Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 4:52 PM > >> > >> > >> A > >> Manatee is slow and Graceful, also similar in > shape. > >> Manatee's also have a great nature. > >> Hank > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> On Mon, 6/29/15, Alec Smyth via > >> Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> Subject: Re: > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >> To: > >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> Received: Monday, June 29, 2015, > 5:10 PM > >> > >> "A > >> > >> knot or less" and "Manatee" both suggest > >> sluggishness to me, but I think > this little > >> boat will move. > >> My wife is suggesting > >> "Shackleton" since I really > >> like > >> the fellow and he was a relative. So that one's in > >> the lead, but I'm still pondering > it. If > >> she were a > >> one-person, I would name her > >> "Batchelors Delight" > >> after a > >> pirate ship that I think had the best name of all > >> time. Yesterday I did > something I hadn't > >> done in a > >> long time, and actually looked at > >> a list of baby names. This > >> is fun. > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at > >> 1:48 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: > >> Hi > >> Alec, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> How about "The > >> Equalizer" or "A knot or > >> > >> less". > >> > >> > >> > >> Keith T. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >Hi Alec, > >> > >> >Very nice sub with manly > >> attributes. I would never have > >> guessed > >> that > >> > >> >when you > >> mentioned a while ago that the stern would be > >> surprising. > >> > >> > >> > >> >Love the > >> Naughtylus name > >> > >> > > >> > >> >regards, > >> > >> >Antoine > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >>> On 6/29/15, James Frankland via > > Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>> Hi Alec, > >> > >> > >> > >> >> New sub > >> looks great. With those ball floats at > >> > >> the back it reminded me of > >> > >> >> "The Liberator" from an > old > >> BBC science > >> fiction program called > >> "Blakes 7". > >> > >> > >>>> I was a big fan when I was a kid. > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > https://contactinfinitefutures.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/the-liberator.jpg > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 04:40, > Alan > >> James via > >> Personal_Submersibles < > >> > >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> That's great thanks Alec, > >> > >> >>> I'll save that > description > >> with the dwg. > >> > >> > >>>>> Alan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ > >> > >> >>> *From:* > >> Private via Personal_Submersibles > >> < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> > >> >>> *To:* Personal > >> Submersibles General > >> Discussion < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> > >> >>> *Sent:* > >> Monday, > >> June 29, 2015 1:21 PM > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> *Subject:* Re: > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new > >> sub > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Correct! > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> The little O > >> ring under the threaded contacts > >> on the > >> hull side has two > >> > >> > >>>>> purposes. It prevents water coming > into > > the > >> sub > >> if you drop the thruster, > >> > >> >>> but it also > >> acts as a spring to maintain good > >> > >> electrical contact. When > >> > >> > >>>>> the > >> > >> > >>>>> thruster is off, the sub side contact > > sticks > >> out very slightly above the > >> > >> > >> >>> rest of the > penetrator, so > >> when you draw the > >> motor toward the sub > >> the > >> > >> >>> contact > >> squeezes its O ring. > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> The contacts on the sub side go through a nylon > >> insert sealed with O > >> > >> >>> rings > >> > >> >>> and locked by a > shoulder in the > >> SS insert. On > >> the thruster side the > >> > >> >>> contacts and > >> cables are potted, but because the > >> thruster > >> is oil filled > >> > >> > >>>>> the > >> > >> > >>>>> potting is not subject to any > pressure. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> The bolt has a > >> shaft seal that prevents it > >> being pushed > >> into the sub if > >> > >> > >>>>> you drop the thruster. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> The thrusters are > fixed, not > >> rotating. The > >> benefit of this design is > >> that > >> > >> >>> there > >> are neither cables nor tubes to sever - > >> you > >> just need to switch off > >> > >> > >>>>> power to the thruster before dropping > it, > >> and > >> the dropping itself is just > >> > >> >>> three or four > >> turns of a bolt. > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> Best, > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Alec > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> On Jun 28, > >> 2015, at 7:55 PM, Alan James > >> via > >> Personal_Submersibles < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> I think I understand it now. > >> > >> >>> The 2 bolts are the > electrical > >> through hulls > >> & you wind the > >> > >> >>> central nut to > >> push the unit off. The electrics > >> would > >> unplug in the > >> > >> > >>>>> process. > >> > >> > >>>>> Alan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ > >> > >> >>> *From:* hank > >> pronk via > >> Personal_Submersibles < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> > >> >>> *To:* Personal > >> Submersibles General Discussion > >> < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> > >> >>> *Sent:* Monday, > >> June 29, 2015 10:02 AM > >> > >> > >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's > >> new > >> sub > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> Alec, > >> > >> >>> Nice > >> project, I like the trawl floats in the > >> > >> back, it is so different! > >> > >> > >>>>> The first thing that comes to mind when > I > >> see > >> your new build is, Manatee. > >> > >> >>> You sure have > >> put in a lot of time on this. I > >> like the > >> jettisoning > >> > >> >>> > >> system, it is the same idea as Gamma's > >> > >> tail, very simple and clean. The > >> > >> >>> bellows are very > nice! > >> > >> >>> Nice video, you > >> have good control of the > >> sub. > >> > >> >>> Hank > >> > >> >>> > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> > >> >>> On Sat, > >> 6/27/15, Alec Smyth via > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > >> > >> > >> >>> To: > >> > >> "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > >> > >> >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > >> > >> >>> Received: > >> Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:40 PM > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Hey > >> everyone, I'm > >> > >> >>> breaking cover with > the project > >> sub. It is in > >> need of a > >> > >> > >> >>> name. If the pictures > inspire > >> any thoughts that > >> are not > >> > >> > >> >>> rude, I'm all ears > for > >> suggested names! > >> > >> > >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Best, > >> > >> >>> Alec > >> > >> >>> -----Inline > >> Attachment Follows----- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >>> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >>> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >>> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >>> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >>> > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles > >> mailing list > >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles > >> mailing list > >> > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 22:08:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 19:08:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <20150629190818.1DAF53A7@m0005312.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 22:30:33 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 19:30:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub Message-ID: <20150629193033.1DAF52F4@m0005312.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 29 22:48:58 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:48:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub In-Reply-To: <20150629190818.1DAF53A7@m0005312.ppops.net> References: <20150629190818.1DAF53A7@m0005312.ppops.net> Message-ID: Yes, Solo shortened a little and with a Perry tower. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, Is this sub originally part of Solo? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:57:25 -0400 > > Yep, I intend to make a fairing over the thruster mounts for just that > reason. I tried 3D-printing one but it was not sturdy enough. Will probably > just mill it out of solid UHMW plastic. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:52 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > The compensating diaphragms might want rigid, free-flooding tubes to sit > in for stability in a seaway, and to protect them from snags and dumb feet. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2015 11:26 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > That is readily available, just look online for "molded fiberglass > grating". There is some similar stuff that's easier on the feet, which you > can find searching "pultruded grating", but I went for this one with wider > openings because the midships thrusters blow right through it. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, swaters at waters-ks.com via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Very cool. I am curious about the grate too. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date:06/29/2015 10:05 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Cc: > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > > Made by Greg Cottrell many years ago. It was at the time the thickest > he'd made and wasn't sure it would work out, but it came out really well. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, The submarine looks amazing!!! I can't wait to see it in person! > Where did you get the acrylic dome at? > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's new sub > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: Sat, June 27, 2015 7:40 pm > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Hey everyone, I'm breaking cover with the project sub. It is in need of > a name. If the pictures inspire any thoughts that are not rude, I'm all > ears for suggested names! > > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/newsub/ > > > Best, > > Alec > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 05:02:26 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:02:26 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: <59t8bip8ohgq6k1tsoydfigx.1435610347083@email.android.com> References: <59t8bip8ohgq6k1tsoydfigx.1435610347083@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys, There is of course a fuse inline. There is for all the electrical items. But ive realised that even if I insulate the body of the compressor from its mounting bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is still grounded to the hull. There's no way I can insulate that, so I cannot isolate the earth unless I can find how its connected inside the motor and isolate it there. But in the meantime, I am going to put a switch on the negative lead as Keith suggests and just click it on when I need it. Regards James On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > > How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the compressor. > Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to connect/disconnect the > battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at most marine supply stores > (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). > > That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, > instantly. > > Keith T. > > Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull > & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive > contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the > hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the > battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch > (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if > there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the > compressor on.Alan > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > > > >Agreed, that would be better. Not sure if its possible. I suppose I > could try and find the negative brush and insulate it. I can only assume > the negative brush is in contact with the chassis. This is the compressor > here.. https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 > >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead > from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then > ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution > as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean > > > > > >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >The battery negative is not connected to the hull. But, the battery > negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then > connected to the negative of all electrical items. So far this has been > fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, in the case of > the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the > negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull > connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my voltmeter > across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading. > It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but > I don't want any connections to the hull at all. Im going to insulate it. > Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some > plastic washers. > >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You > just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to > it.Sean > > > > > >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi sean, > >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of > this new item. But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent > connection to the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor > is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent > connection to the hull via the mounting bracket. Damn, i'll have to > insulate it somehow, before Sat. RegardsJames > >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that the > battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would > be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to > do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero > potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, > since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery > potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through > the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC > ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are > confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be > connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground > point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to > earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise > energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and > serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable > shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a > DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating > that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the > operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does > not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare > conductor at the battery negative potential. Alternatively, you could look > at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running > that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean > > > >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi All, Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is > electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and > from the battery and insulated from the hull. However, ive recently fitted > a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me. Ive realised that > the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which > is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of > the boat as well. The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative > battery terminal. I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic > corrosion, but im not sure. > >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence > insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this > weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. Thanks > >James > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 07:56:48 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 04:56:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435665408.26990.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, My whole sub is grounded to the batteries, not ideal, but worked since 1971. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/30/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 5:02 AM Hi Guys, There is of course a fuse inline.? There is for all the electrical items.? ?But ive realised that even if I insulate the body of the compressor from its mounting bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is still grounded to the hull.?? There's no way I can insulate that, so I cannot isolate the earth unless I can find how its connected inside the motor and isolate it there.? ?But in the meantime, I am going to put a switch on the negative lead as Keith suggests and just click it on when I need it.? ?RegardsJames On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at most marine supply stores (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, instantly. Keith T. Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the compressor on.Alan >? ? ? From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > >Agreed, that would be better.? Not sure if its possible.? I suppose I could try and find the negative brush and insulate it.? I can only assume the negative brush is in contact with the chassis.?This is the compressor here..?https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >The battery negative is not?connected to the hull.? ?But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items.? So far this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated.? However, in the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal.? I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading.? It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull at all.?Im going to insulate it.? Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic washers.?? >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi sean, >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull.? Only the chassis of this new item.?But?thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the negative terminal.?? The negative wire on the compressor is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting bracket.? ?Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat.?RegardsJames >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery negative potential.? Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean > >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,?Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my boat.? Everything is wired to and from the battery and insulated from the hull.?However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me.? Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat as well.? ?The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal.?I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really want to start changing it now.?Thanks >James? >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 08:07:43 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 05:07:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] saftey gear Message-ID: <1435666063.97368.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, What type of bailout equipment do you carry. I have a Steinke Hood but it is a squeeze to get through the hatch with it inflated. Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 08:14:31 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 05:14:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435666471.88734.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, I am not getting why you need a switch on the negative side? The positive is switched. If the hull came into contact with the negative side of the batteries the current won't do anything because the positive is switched. Or am I missing something. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/30/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 5:02 AM Hi Guys, There is of course a fuse inline.? There is for all the electrical items.? ?But ive realised that even if I insulate the body of the compressor from its mounting bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is still grounded to the hull.?? There's no way I can insulate that, so I cannot isolate the earth unless I can find how its connected inside the motor and isolate it there.? ?But in the meantime, I am going to put a switch on the negative lead as Keith suggests and just click it on when I need it.? ?RegardsJames On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at most marine supply stores (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, instantly. Keith T. Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the compressor on.Alan >? ? ? From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > >Agreed, that would be better.? Not sure if its possible.? I suppose I could try and find the negative brush and insulate it.? I can only assume the negative brush is in contact with the chassis.?This is the compressor here..?https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >The battery negative is not?connected to the hull.? ?But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all electrical items.? So far this has been fine as the electrical items are all insulated.? However, in the case of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal.? I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading.? It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull at all.?Im going to insulate it.? Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic washers.?? >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to it.Sean > > >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi sean, >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull.? Only the chassis of this new item.?But?thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the negative terminal.?? The negative wire on the compressor is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting bracket.? ?Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, before Sat.?RegardsJames >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery negative potential.? Alternatively, you could look at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean > >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,?Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my boat.? Everything is wired to and from the battery and insulated from the hull.?However, ive recently fitted a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me.? Ive realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat as well.? ?The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative battery terminal.?I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really want to start changing it now.?Thanks >James? >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 08:33:14 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 13:33:14 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: <1435666471.88734.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435666471.88734.YahooMailBasic@web125402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Your right, there wont be any current flow as the positive is switched. However, without a switch, the negative would be permanently grounded. So, in the event of a fault somewhere else, there is a return path for any stray current. I don't want that. So if I put a switch on the earth as well, it eliminates the issue, more or less. I had an accident while building where I had inadvertently left a spanner on the main positive battery terminal which turned and contacted the hull. I then grounded another spanner from the negative against the hull and the resulting hail of sparks as the spanner disintegrated in my face has made me very conscious of electrical shorts. regards James On 30 June 2015 at 13:14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > I am not getting why you need a switch on the negative side? The positive > is switched. If the hull came into contact with the negative side of the > batteries the current won't do anything because the positive is switched. > Or am I missing something. > Hank > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/30/15, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 5:02 AM > > Hi > Guys, > There is of course a fuse > inline. There is for all the electrical items. > But ive realised that even if I > insulate the body of the compressor from its mounting > bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is > still grounded to the hull. There's no way I can > insulate that, so I cannot isolate the earth unless I can > find how its connected inside the motor and isolate it > there. But in the meantime, I am > going to put a switch on the negative lead as Keith suggests > and just click it on when I need it. > RegardsJames > On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, > via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > James, > > > > How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of > the compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I > use to connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You > can get tham at most marine supply stores (Westmaine, > Defender, etc.). > > > > That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the > wrist, instantly. > > > > Keith T. > > > > Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse > betweenthe hull & - battery connection. The biggest > issue, as Sean says, is if apositive contact comes off any > electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the > hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a > fire or blow up the battery etc.Better still put the > compressor switch, or an additional switch (or solenoid) in > the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if > there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, > onlywhen you have the compressor on.Alan > > > From: James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question > > > > > >Agreed, that would be better. Not sure if its > possible. I suppose I could try and find the negative > brush and insulate it. I can only assume the negative > brush is in contact with the chassis. This is the > compressor here.. https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 > > >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor > negative lead from its chassis, instead wiring it to your > negative/common bus, and then ground the chassis? If > it's easy to do, that would be the better solution as it > preserves incidental contact safety.Sean > > > > > > > > >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >The battery negative is not connected to the hull. > But, the battery negative is connected permanently to the > negative bus, which is then connected to the negative of all > electrical items. So far this has been fine as the > electrical items are all insulated. However, in the case > of the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the > hull, and the negative connects to the compressor chassis, > its opening up a hull connection to the negative terminal. > I suspect that if I put my voltmeter across the positive > battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading. It > still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course > insulated, but I don't want any connections to the hull > at all. Im going to insulate it. Ive ordered some nylon > bolts which I think will do the job, along with some plastic > washers. > > >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. > Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a > good thing. You just don't want to tie your power supply > common (battery negative) to it.Sean > > > > > > > > >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Hi sean, > > >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. > Only the chassis of this new item. But thinking about it, > I suppose it does create a permanent connection to the > negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor > is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is > creating a permanent connection to the hull via the mounting > bracket. Damn, i'll have to insulate it somehow, > before Sat. RegardsJames > > >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > >Your electrical system should not be neg! > ativegrounded, meaning that the battery negative should not > be common with the hull / chassis as it would be in an > automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in > part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids > regular currents and nonzero potentials through structural > elements, and in part to do with arc safety, since a single > fault or operator error which connects either battery > potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit > current through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY > grounds, which include AC ground and most chassis ground and > cable shield connections which are confirmed not in common > with the supply DC negative, should indeed be connected > through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated > ground point) in order to serve their intended function: > providing a short path to earth-ground potential in the > event of a fault that might otherwise energizeequipment / > chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and serving as > a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to > reference cable shields to for effective noise rejection.A > negative connected chassis on a DC powered compressor can be > accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating that chassis > from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the > operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in > that case does not represent the safety ground potential, > and is thus akin to a large bare conductor at the battery > negative potential. Alternatively, you could look at > modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, > running that negative to the battery and grounding the > chassis.Sean > > > > > >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Hi All, Ive made a real point of making sure that > nothing at all is electrically connected to the hull of my > boat. Everything is wired to and from the battery and > insulated from the hull. However, ive recently fitted a new > item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me. Ive > realised that the negative terminal on the unit is the > chassis of the compressor, which is bolted to brackets on > the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of the boat > as well. The hull of the boat is not connected to the > negative battery terminal. I don't think there is an > issue there with galvanic corrosion, but im not sure. > > >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting > bracket and hence insulate it from the hull, but it will be > a bloody pain and im diving this weekend so don't really > want to start changing it now. Thanks > > >James > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing > list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 09:03:33 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:03:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] saftey gear In-Reply-To: <1435666063.97368.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435666063.97368.YahooMailBasic@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Snoopy has a BIBS, which would be used during cabin flooding. Each crew member wears a compact inflatable jacket that uses a CO2 cartridge and has a Spare Air for a few breaths on the way up. Although the life jackets do not have over-pressure valves like a Steinke hood, the amount of gas in the cartridge is limited and therefore the life jackets should not explode. My understanding is these cartridges have about 800 psi in them, so they should be able to inflate at depth albeit much more slowly than on the surface. I do expect they will reach only a fraction of their normal volume at depth given the amount of gas in the cartridge, so they will provide only a very slow start toward the surface. But the difficulty with the Steinke hoods is getting them on in such a confined space. Maybe in the new sub I could store some spare trawl floats in the cabin (there's more space) for speeding a swimming ascent. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 8:07 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > What type of bailout equipment do you carry. I have a Steinke Hood but it > is a squeeze to get through the hatch with it inflated. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 10:21:39 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 15:21:39 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing In-Reply-To: References: <654248799.121059.1435293190106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <006701d0afd0$90e88400$b2b98c00$@telus.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve, To be honest, the hickups I experienced were all my own fault because id typed the password in wrong. From where I was here, the streaming was fine and I could hear everything very clear. It never cut out at all. Seemed like a good solution to me. Thanks for setting it up. Regards James On 29 June 2015 at 23:37, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, thanks for the feedback. Sorry you had some hick ups. It was an > initial attempt at exploring remote access to a portion of the convention. > There are probably better ways to do it but this was a look at one of them. > > Steve > > > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 6:07 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> I watched several of the presentations. Thanks for that. Unfortunately >> for the later ones, I had messed my password up and it wouldn't let me log >> back in to message. I couldn't even setup a new account as it wouldn't let >> me. I heard someone say "james was here earlier but he seems to have >> gone". I was there, you just didn't know it which was quite frustrating. >> Anyway, thanks for setting that up, it was very interesting. >> >> regards >> James >> >> On 26 June 2015 at 06:25, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> >>> >>> >>> It would be great to have a brief transcript of the discussions >>> published on the site if possible. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan James via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> *Sent:* June-25-15 9:33 PM >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Steve, >>> >>> I'll be listening in. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < >>> member-forum at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2015 9:32 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Convention Tech. Session Vieiwing >>> >>> >>> >>> Reminder if you are so inclined to want to view the technical >>> presentations tomorrow we are starting at 9AM EST. >>> >>> Please follow the attached instructions to create an account to log in. >>> >>> The approx. Agenda is: >>> >>> Convention Opening Comments (9AM EST) >>> >>> Project Reviews (9:15-11:30) >>> >>> SeaQuestor Project Update: David Colombo >>> >>> Project 765 Update: John Kammerer >>> >>> Lunch >>> >>> Dive Reports (1:30PM) >>> >>> Snoopy at Seneca Dive Report: Alec Smyth >>> >>> Round Table Discussion (open forum) >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 13:37:27 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 07:37:27 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <59t8bip8ohgq6k1tsoydfigx.1435610347083@email.android.com> Message-ID: James, I was looking into building an aluminum sailboat some years ago and everything I read said to never ground anything to the hull, has to go back to the negative side of the battery/engine block and then there would be a dielectric spacer in the propeller shaft . I decided to build a sub instead but I can't tell you how many power/sail boats I have had to fix because they had stray current running threw their hull which acted like an anode? There would be multiple circles ranging from a dime to a half dollar that had eroded almost all the way threw the hull below the water line and I would have to fill them back up with Tig welding. I don't understand electricity like some of the others here but my 2 cents worth would be to never use the hull as a ground and put a small section of non conductive hose in your supply and return lines for LP or HP air. Rick On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:02 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Guys, > > There is of course a fuse inline. There is for all the electrical items. > > But ive realised that even if I insulate the body of the compressor from > its mounting bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is still > grounded to the hull. There's no way I can insulate that, so I cannot > isolate the earth unless I can find how its connected inside the motor and > isolate it there. > > But in the meantime, I am going to put a switch on the negative lead as > Keith suggests and just click it on when I need it. > > Regards > James > > On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, >> >> How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the >> compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to >> connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at most >> marine supply stores (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). >> >> That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, >> instantly. >> >> Keith T. >> >> Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe hull >> & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if apositive >> contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact with the >> hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up the >> battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional switch >> (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. Then if >> there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you have the >> compressor on.Alan >> > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question >> > >> >Agreed, that would be better. Not sure if its possible. I suppose I >> could try and find the negative brush and insulate it. I can only assume >> the negative brush is in contact with the chassis. This is the compressor >> here.. https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 >> >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative lead >> from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and then >> ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better solution >> as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean >> > >> > >> >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >The battery negative is not connected to the hull. But, the battery >> negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then >> connected to the negative of all electrical items. So far this has been >> fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, in the case of >> the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the >> negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull >> connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my voltmeter >> across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a reading. >> It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course insulated, but >> I don't want any connections to the hull at all. Im going to insulate it. >> Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along with some >> plastic washers. >> >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good thing. You >> just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) to >> it.Sean >> > >> > >> >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >Hi sean, >> >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the chassis of >> this new item. But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a permanent >> connection to the negative terminal. The negative wire on the compressor >> is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a permanent >> connection to the hull via the mounting bracket. Damn, i'll have to >> insulate it somehow, before Sat. RegardsJames >> >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning that >> the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as it >> would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this is in >> part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular currents and >> nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do with arc >> safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either >> battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit current >> through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which include >> AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which are >> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed be >> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated ground >> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short path to >> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >> energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, and >> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference cable >> shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected chassis on a >> DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by isolating >> that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from the >> operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case does >> not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a large bare >> conductor at the battery negative potential. Alternatively, you could look >> at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, running >> that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean >> > >> >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >Hi All, Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >> electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired to and >> from the battery and insulated from the hull. However, ive recently fitted >> a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me. Ive realised that >> the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, which >> is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the hull of >> the boat as well. The hull of the boat is not connected to the negative >> battery terminal. I don't think there is an issue there with galvanic >> corrosion, but im not sure. >> >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im diving this >> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. Thanks >> >James >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 14:31:41 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:31:41 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question In-Reply-To: References: <59t8bip8ohgq6k1tsoydfigx.1435610347083@email.android.com> Message-ID: There seems to be some confusion arising from terminology. DO use the hull for grounding (safety/earth ground, equipment chasses, cable shield reference, antenna ground plane). DO NOT use the hull as a battery negative or DC power supply common bus connection. There should be no currents in your hull in the course of normal operations, but in the event of a serious electrical fault, you want to tie down the potentials of any exposed equipment rather than energizing it. Sean On June 30, 2015 11:37:27 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >James, > >I was looking into building an aluminum sailboat some years ago and >everything I read said to never ground anything to the hull, has to go >back >to the negative side of the battery/engine block and then there would >be a >dielectric spacer in the propeller shaft . I decided to build a sub >instead >but I can't tell you how many power/sail boats I have had to fix >because >they had stray current running threw their hull which acted like an >anode? >There would be multiple circles ranging from a dime to a half dollar >that >had eroded almost all the way threw the hull below the water line and I >would have to fill them back up with Tig welding. I don't understand >electricity like some of the others here but my 2 cents worth would be >to >never use the hull as a ground and put a small section of non >conductive >hose in your supply and return lines for LP or HP air. > >Rick > >On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:02 PM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> There is of course a fuse inline. There is for all the electrical >items. >> >> But ive realised that even if I insulate the body of the compressor >from >> its mounting bracket, it wont make any difference as the pipework is >still >> grounded to the hull. There's no way I can insulate that, so I >cannot >> isolate the earth unless I can find how its connected inside the >motor and >> isolate it there. >> >> But in the meantime, I am going to put a switch on the negative lead >as >> Keith suggests and just click it on when I need it. >> >> Regards >> James >> >> On 29 June 2015 at 21:43, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> James, >>> >>> How about putting a battery switch in the negative lead of the >>> compressor. Blue Sea makes high current units, that I use to >>> connect/disconnect the battery banks on my boat. You can get tham at >most >>> marine supply stores (Westmaine, Defender, etc.). >>> >>> That way you can kill the compressor with the twist of the wrist, >>> instantly. >>> >>> Keith T. >>> >>> Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >James,in the mean time, why not just put a suitable fuse betweenthe >hull >>> & - battery connection. The biggest issue, as Sean says, is if >apositive >>> contact comes off any electrical item on the sub, & makes contact >with the >>> hull.Then you are shorting the battery & can cause a fire or blow up >the >>> battery etc.Better still put the compressor switch, or an additional >switch >>> (or solenoid) in the wiring from the hull tothe negative terminal. >Then if >>> there is any shorts they won't happen continuously, onlywhen you >have the >>> compressor on.Alan >>> > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 3:45 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electrical Question >>> > >>> >Agreed, that would be better. Not sure if its possible. I suppose >I >>> could try and find the negative brush and insulate it. I can only >assume >>> the negative brush is in contact with the chassis. This is the >compressor >>> here.. https://www.google.com/patents/US2450468 >>> >On 29 June 2015 at 16:00, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Would it be possible to disconnect the compressor motor negative >lead >>> from its chassis, instead wiring it to your negative/common bus, and >then >>> ground the chassis? If it's easy to do, that would be the better >solution >>> as it preserves incidental contact safety.Sean >>> > >>> > >>> >On June 29, 2015 8:52:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >The battery negative is not connected to the hull. But, the >battery >>> negative is connected permanently to the negative bus, which is then >>> connected to the negative of all electrical items. So far this has >been >>> fine as the electrical items are all insulated. However, in the >case of >>> the compressor, as the compressor is connected to the hull, and the >>> negative connects to the compressor chassis, its opening up a hull >>> connection to the negative terminal. I suspect that if I put my >voltmeter >>> across the positive battery terminal and the hull, I will get a >reading. >>> It still wont create a circuit as the positive is of course >insulated, but >>> I don't want any connections to the hull at all. Im going to >insulate it. >>> Ive ordered some nylon bolts which I think will do the job, along >with some >>> plastic washers. >>> >On 29 J! une 2015at 15:38, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >Perhaps I misunderstand. Chassis continuity to hull is a good >thing. You >>> just don't want to tie your power supply common (battery negative) >to >>> it.Sean >>> > >>> > >>> >On June 29, 2015 7:56:32 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >Hi sean, >>> >The battery negative is NOT connected to the hull. Only the >chassis of >>> this new item. But thinking about it, I suppose it does create a >permanent >>> connection to the negative terminal. The negative wire on the >compressor >>> is connected to the negative bus on the boat, which is creating a >permanent >>> connection to the hull via the mounting bracket. Damn, i'll have >to >>> insulate it somehow, before Sat. RegardsJames >>> >On 29 June 2015 at 14:46, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >Your electrical system should not be neg! ativegrounded, meaning >that >>> the battery negative should not be common with the hull / chassis as >it >>> would be in an automotive system, for example. The reason for this >is in >>> part to do with galvanic corrosion, since this avoids regular >currents and >>> nonzero potentials through structural elements, and in part to do >with arc >>> safety, since a single fault or operator error which connects either >>> battery potential to the chassis will not produce a short circuit >current >>> through the battery in this case. That said, SAFETY grounds, which >include >>> AC ground and most chassis ground and cable shield connections which >are >>> confirmed not in common with the supply DC negative, should indeed >be >>> connected through the hull (either locally or through a dedicated >ground >>> point) in order to serve their intended function: providing a short >path to >>> earth-ground potential in the event of a fault that might otherwise >>> energizeequipment / chasses that could be hazardous to personnel, >and >>> serving as a connection to an "infinite" charge sink to reference >cable >>> shields to for effective noise rejection.A negative connected >chassis on a >>> DC powered compressor can be accommodated, as you surmised, by >isolating >>> that chassis from the hull, and additionally should be isolated from >the >>> operator / cabin (via enclosure?), because the chassis in that case >does >>> not represent the safety ground potential, and is thus akin to a >large bare >>> conductor at the battery negative potential. Alternatively, you >could look >>> at modifying the unit to break the negative-chassis connection, >running >>> that negative to the battery and grounding the chassis.Sean >>> > >>> >On June 29, 2015 6:48:15 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >Hi All, Ive made a real point of making sure that nothing at all is >>> electrically connected to the hull of my boat. Everything is wired >to and >>> from the battery and insulated from the hull. However, ive recently >fitted >>> a new item, a Cornelius compressor which Hank gave me. Ive realised >that >>> the negative terminal on the unit is the chassis of the compressor, >which >>> is bolted to brackets on the hull, so its actually connected to the >hull of >>> the boat as well. The hull of the boat is not connected to the >negative >>> battery terminal. I don't think there is an issue there with >galvanic >>> corrosion, but im not sure. >>> >I could insulate the compressor from the mounting bracket and hence >>> insulate it from the hull, but it will be a bloody pain and im >diving this >>> weekend so don't really want to start changing it now. Thanks >>> >James >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 18:53:00 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 15:53:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks Message-ID: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Finally! Today is the first time Gamma did not leak a drop of oil from the drive, my new seal and new compensating hose did the trick. The light bar on the other hand has some water. This time the light bar was just sealed full of oil. I think I am not getting all the air out, I will try a piece of clear garden hose next. I had a little scare today, the dome must have squeezed the gasket and let some tension off the retaining straps. This made a scary sound. I am doing another dive tomorrow, then I am off to do a proper deep test. I am pushing my luck maybe. I am only diving 100 feet and like Vance says, a shoe box can be sealed to 100 feet :-) Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 19:29:47 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 16:29:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] saftey gear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435706987.49329.YahooMailBasic@web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, Thank you, this has been on my mind lately. I have the same except for the inflatable vest. I have plenty of room to get the Stinke Hood on but I find it very cumbersome. Hank -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/30/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] saftey gear To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 9:03 AM Hi Hank, Snoopy has a BIBS, which would be used during cabin flooding. Each crew member wears a compact inflatable jacket that uses a CO2 cartridge and has a Spare Air for a few breaths on the way up. Although the life jackets do not have over-pressure valves like a Steinke hood, the amount of gas in the cartridge is limited and therefore the life jackets should not explode. My understanding is these cartridges have about 800 psi in them, so they should be able to inflate at depth albeit much more slowly than on the surface. I do expect they will reach only a fraction of their normal volume at depth given the amount of gas in the cartridge, so they will provide only a very slow start toward the surface. But the difficulty with the Steinke hoods is getting them on in such a confined space. Maybe in the new sub I could store some spare trawl floats in the cabin (there's more space) for speeding a swimming ascent.? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 8:07 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, What type of bailout equipment do you carry.? I have a Steinke Hood but it is a squeeze to get through the hatch with it inflated. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 20:29:44 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:29:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks In-Reply-To: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55933478.2050101@psubs.org> What length compensating hose did you use? On 6/30/2015 6:53 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Finally! > Today is the first time Gamma did not leak a drop of oil from the drive, my new seal and new compensating hose did the trick. The light bar on the other hand has some water. This time the light bar was just sealed full of oil. I think I am not getting all the air out, I will try a piece of clear garden hose next. > I had a little scare today, the dome must have squeezed the gasket and let some tension off the retaining straps. This made a scary sound. I am doing another dive tomorrow, then I am off to do a proper deep test. I am pushing my luck maybe. I am only diving 100 feet and like Vance says, a shoe box can be sealed to 100 feet :-) > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 20:51:17 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:51:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Psub Convention Wrap Up Message-ID: All, now that the convention is over a quick summary. While the final attendance was small (7) we enjoyed a full but relaxing agenda with lunches and dinners and further discussions. Here are some highlights: - Snoopy drew a decent amount of curious on lookers at the International Sub Races and Psubs.org awareness was raised - Live technical session presentations were successfully streamed with chat capability - Note: While the intent was to have these presentations "recorded" on the twitch.tv site they were deleted because the control of viewing access could not be restricted as originally thought - Sneek previews of Alec Smyth's recent Snoopy/Seneca dive video and his new sub design unveiling - Member Jay Ellis shared photos of his cool early model Kittredge VAST(?) (K-250 style w/ internal side hard tanks) Bloopers: Due to a security alert the Washington Navy Yard Museum could only be accessed if you had an active duty person escorting you Thanks to those who presented, attended, watched on-line, opened their homes, drove and helped in anyway with the convention. A good team effort. Any ideas for next year? Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 21:33:06 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 18:33:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks In-Reply-To: <55933478.2050101@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1435714386.41494.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I used 24 inches of 5/8 clear flat garden hose. The hose wants to be flat, so it compresses right away. Hank------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/30/15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 8:29 PM What length compensating hose did you use? On 6/30/2015 6:53 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Finally! > Today is the first time Gamma did not leak a drop of oil from the drive, my new seal and new compensating hose did the trick.? The light bar on the other hand has some water.? This time the light bar was just sealed full of oil.? I think I am not getting all the air out, I will try a piece of clear garden hose next. > I had a little scare today, the dome must have squeezed the gasket and let some tension off the retaining straps.? This made a scary sound.? I am doing another dive tomorrow, then I am off to do a proper deep test.? I am pushing my luck maybe. I am only diving 100 feet and like Vance says, a shoe box can be sealed to 100 feet :-) > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 21:55:18 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:55:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Psub Convention Wrap Up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <553C5F2D-7D0D-418E-80DD-56A030A6CEFA@gmail.com> Thanks for organizing Steve! My suggestion would be to return to a diving convention, and I'd like to nominate Seneca as the location. My reasons: - Great local support. We not only have Al Secor as a local PSUBS member but the support of a local dive organization with boats, connections to the chamber of commerce, etc. - Close enough for the Great Lakes PSUBS fleet to attend, and within range of Dan H, Jon, myself, etc. - Super visibility even after heavy rain. Just a thought. Best, Alec > On Jun 30, 2015, at 8:51 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All, now that the convention is over a quick summary. While the final attendance was small (7) we enjoyed a full but relaxing agenda with lunches and dinners and further discussions. > > Here are some highlights: > Snoopy drew a decent amount of curious on lookers at the International Sub Races and Psubs.org awareness was raised > Live technical session presentations were successfully streamed with chat capability > Note: While the intent was to have these presentations "recorded" on the twitch.tv site they were deleted because the control of viewing access could not be restricted as originally thought > Sneek previews of Alec Smyth's recent Snoopy/Seneca dive video and his new sub design unveiling > Member Jay Ellis shared photos of his cool early model Kittredge VAST(?) (K-250 style w/ internal side hard tanks) > Bloopers: > Due to a security alert the Washington Navy Yard Museum could only be accessed if you had an active duty person escorting you > > Thanks to those who presented, attended, watched on-line, opened their homes, drove and helped in anyway with the convention. A good team effort. > > Any ideas for next year? > > Steve > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 22:50:46 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 22:50:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks In-Reply-To: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, do you have some grease under that dome? I recall Phil saying the scariest thing he's ever experienced was the screech of an un-greased dome contracting. Best, Alec > On Jun 30, 2015, at 6:53 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Finally! > Today is the first time Gamma did not leak a drop of oil from the drive, my new seal and new compensating hose did the trick. The light bar on the other hand has some water. This time the light bar was just sealed full of oil. I think I am not getting all the air out, I will try a piece of clear garden hose next. > I had a little scare today, the dome must have squeezed the gasket and let some tension off the retaining straps. This made a scary sound. I am doing another dive tomorrow, then I am off to do a proper deep test. I am pushing my luck maybe. I am only diving 100 feet and like Vance says, a shoe box can be sealed to 100 feet :-) > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 22:54:08 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:54:08 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] no more leaks In-Reply-To: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1435704780.95597.YahooMailBasic@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45fd0874-e379-4f51-9168-6149f7406fc6@email.android.com> What material and durometer / hardness of seat gasket are you using? Sean On June 30, 2015 4:53:00 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Finally! >Today is the first time Gamma did not leak a drop of oil from the >drive, my new seal and new compensating hose did the trick. The light >bar on the other hand has some water. This time the light bar was just >sealed full of oil. I think I am not getting all the air out, I will >try a piece of clear garden hose next. >I had a little scare today, the dome must have squeezed the gasket and >let some tension off the retaining straps. This made a scary sound. I >am doing another dive tomorrow, then I am off to do a proper deep test. >I am pushing my luck maybe. I am only diving 100 feet and like Vance >says, a shoe box can be sealed to 100 feet :-) >Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 30 23:41:35 2015 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:41:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2015 Psub Convention Wrap Up Message-ID: Steve, My only suggestion would be to find a way to record and save future presentations. Perhaps a PSUBS youtube channel or on the website where the members have access to them. I know I would be interested, as I may not make a convention for a while. Plus the videos could be a great refernce to access later when the little gray cells don't quite remember what was said. Ok, I'm off the soap box now ;) Keith T. Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks for organizing Steve! My suggestion would be to return to a diving convention, and I'd like to nominate Seneca as the location. My reasons: > >- Great local support. We not only have Al Secor as a local PSUBS member but the support of a local dive organization with boats, connections to the chamber of commerce, etc. >- Close enough for the Great Lakes PSUBS fleet to attend, and within range of Dan H, Jon, myself, etc. >- Super visibility even after heavy rain. > >Just a thought. > >Best, > >Alec > > > >> On Jun 30, 2015, at 8:51 PM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> All, now that the convention is over a quick summary. While the final attendance was small (7) we enjoyed a full but relaxing agenda with lunches and dinners and further discussions. >> >> Here are some highlights: >> Snoopy drew a decent amount of curious on lookers at the International Sub Races and Psubs.org awareness was raised >> Live technical session presentations were successfully streamed with chat capability >> Note: While the intent was to have these presentations "recorded" on the twitch.tv site they were deleted because the control of viewing access could not be restricted as originally thought >> Sneek previews of Alec Smyth's recent Snoopy/Seneca dive video and his new sub design unveiling >> Member Jay Ellis shared photos of his cool early model Kittredge VAST(?) (K-250 style w/ internal side hard tanks) >> Bloopers: >> Due to a security alert the Washington Navy Yard Museum could only be accessed if you had an active duty person escorting you >> >> Thanks to those who presented, attended, watched on-line, opened their homes, drove and helped in anyway with the convention. A good team effort. >> >> Any ideas for next year? >> >> Steve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles