[PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca

Sun Jun 7 21:56:00 EDT 2015

Thanks Ken, I am pretty sure I have the schematic in one of my folders. Have moved recently:)I have a couple of different BLDC escs, 3 phases. They are designed for the RC hobbymarket, but some of the hobby motors are pretty serious units. There is a lot of hackinggoing on, with people using the motors and escs for E bikes, scooters etc.Unfortunately our submarines tend to have longer wire runs than these other vehicles.I need to learn a bit more.Alan

      From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 12:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca

#yiv3513449662 #yiv3513449662 -- _filtered #yiv3513449662 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv3513449662 #yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662MsoNormal, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662MsoNormal, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 a:link, #yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 a:visited, #yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal1, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal1, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink1 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed1 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle191 {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle29 {}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal2, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal2, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink2 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed2 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal3, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal3, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msonormal11, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msonormal11, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msonormal11 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 p.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11, #yiv3513449662 li.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11, #yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662msochpdefault11 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlink11 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662msohyperlinkfollowed11 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle1911 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662emailstyle291 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662link-enhancr-element {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv3513449662 span.yiv3513449662EmailStyle40 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3513449662 .yiv3513449662MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3513449662 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3513449662 div.yiv3513449662WordSection1 {}#yiv3513449662 I can dig it up if  you think it would be helpful. I’m a little pessimistic about it helping.  Don’t know if your motor controller/Inverter is soft switching or not. I suspect it’s hard switching since they are lower cost.  I assume it’s a drive for the BLDC motor? Three phases?  Ken Martindale  

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca  Ken,I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it.I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding.My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiringdiagram would work for both.Alan  From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca  Alan, Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor’s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help. I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need. The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used. The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current. The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough. In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website. Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem. Ken Martindale PS For what it’s worth my controller never had a problem.   From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?I was looking at this option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdfAlan From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale.  From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups
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    From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca
Alec,
I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers.  They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof.  I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out.  They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle.  They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.  
I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller.  As you said it is electronic and it will fail.
If you want the controller send your address of list.
Hank
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM

Hello friends,
I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with
Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was
supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but
unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended
up being just Snoopy.
On the way up the weather was terrible, with
driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the
road. It had been raining heavily for several days
previously. Three times there were emergency announcements
about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer
I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain
is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility
for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy
and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked
very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say
Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced
the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those
were clearer than most lakes.
Here's a few things we learned:
1) Of props and shroudsThe stern
thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had
tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the
enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found
it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps.
However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a
spare speed controller, so switched it out. 
The replacement died within five minutes on the
second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the
prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a
little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's
shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to
the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and
shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller
during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the
prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the
pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so
the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way,
the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little
below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those
specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double
failure all of our dives were done on just the side
thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers.
Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a
controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple
on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're
electronic, they will fail.
2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil
Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and
this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They
were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive,
and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the
seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical
incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm
supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva
trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder
hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out
to be pressurized. 
Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity
of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long
as the compression volume of that air could be handled by
the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.)
Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds
the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble
of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the
bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble
squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the
motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the
seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are
fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small
bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going
to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the
bubbles more easily.
3) An easy way to add
buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by
placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the
oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of
just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more
than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't
suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a
float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a
charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow
back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats
for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes
required.
Most of our dives were along a very steep
incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges
and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the
good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really
good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using
very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of
a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging
trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing
our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly
positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly
negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple
of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact
at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet
above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for
a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't
rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely
immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility
would improve significantly, and the water changed from
green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water.
I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to
put together. The only "incidents" we had were a
cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of
the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220
feet - fortunately reversing got us right off
it.

Best,
Alec 

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