[PSUBS-MAILIST] Where are you from?

Tue Mar 24 22:25:24 EDT 2015

I live in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario Canada. I would be glad to answer any
machining questions that I can. I work in CNC and conventional, but mostly
with CNC milling and programming for the same these days.
Cheers!

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 5:17 PM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 21, Issue 59

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Aluminum fine threads (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)
   2. Re: dome straps (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles)
   3. Re: Specifications when ordering shell
      (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:23:59 -0700
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum fine threads
Message-ID:
	<1427160239.84570.YahooMailBasic at web125404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Tom,
Where are you from, good to hear from you.  Many machining questions arise.
Hank
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/23/15, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum fine threads
 To: "personal submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>, "personal
submersibles-request" <personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org>
 Received: Monday, March 23, 2015, 8:22 PM

 #yiv2939091083 p
 {margin:0;}Hello! I am new to
 browsing this mailing list, right now as a matter of  interest, not
planning on building anything.. As a diver and  also as a professional metal
worker I am intrigued by the
 K-350 and also by the propane tank sub. 

 As a seasoned journeyman machinist I can say with confidence  that it is
course threads which are meant to be used in  aluminum - primarily because
of it's lower strength in  shear and it's higher ductility which effects the
cross-sectional strength of the thread at the pitch line. As  a matter of
practice in my trade fine threads are never used  in aluminum due to the
ease of stripping them.

 That said, I look forward to learning more from this group  and am very
impressed with the work displayed.

 Cheers,
 Tom

 From: "via
 Personal_Submersibles"
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: "personal submersibles"
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 11:31:27 AM
 Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 21, Issue
 57

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????????personal_submersibles at psubs.org

 To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
????????http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 or, via email, send a message with subject or body  'help' to
????????personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org

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 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more  specific  than
"Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles  digest..."

 Today's Topics:

 ?? 1. Re: coarse vs fine thread
 ?? ? ?(Sean T Stevenson via
 Personal_Submersibles)
 ?? 2. Re: Specifications when ordering shell  ?? ? ?(Andr? Eriksen via
 Personal_Submersibles)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message: 1
 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:04:52 -0600
 From: Sean T Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
????????<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
????????<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coarse vs fine thread
 Message-ID:
 <6cf7f2e3-1d12-44ce-abc7-d5caf7cf81a5 at email.android.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 Use 6061-T6 aluminum where possible. Hard anodize your  aluminium parts,
and protect them with zinc anodes. Use  stainless fasteners coated in a
corrosion inhibiting grease,  and use stainless helicoil thread inserts in
blind tapped  holes.

 Sean

 On March 23, 2015 6:59:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via  Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >Ah, I have pondered something related for ages. I have  an aluminum bow
>dome  >retaining ring bolted to an aluminum seat. I used  aluminum screws,
to  >reduce galvanic pair issues. And then I broke off one of  the screws by
>pure  >clumsiness. I will have to drill this out, as  there's virtually no
>stub,  >and will probably end up with one screw larger than the  rest if I
need  >to  >re-tap. But my question is... would you guys recommend  using
aluminum  >screws in this scenario? I am not really concerned about  their
holding  >power, there's a large quantity of screws involved.
 >
 >Best,
 >
 >Alec
 >
 >On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Adam Lawrence via  >Personal_Submersibles
<  >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >
 >> ?Hi guys,
 >>
 >> There really isn't an appreciable difference in  performance between
>coarse  >> and fine threads. The more important questions are  bolt/nut  >>
material, thread engagement and torque.
 >>
 >> The argument for sticking with coarse threads would  be that you
>reduce the  >> chance for cross threading the wrong bolt during  assembly,
since  >coarse  >> threads are predominately used.
 >>
 >> Adam
 >> ?------------------------------
 >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
 >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf  Of *Sean T
>Stevenson  >> via Personal_Submersibles  >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 22, 2015
1:13 PM  >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion  >> *Subject:*
Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] coarse vs fine  thread  >>  >> ?Helicoils are an option.
 >>
 >> Sean
 >>
 >>
 >> On March 22, 2015 11:58:31 AM MDT, Rick Patton via
>Personal_Submersibles <  >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >>>
 >>> ?Hank
 >>>
 >>> Fine is the only way to go as aluminum is a  much softer metal than
>steel  >>> so it will strip much easier so the more metal  you grab, the
better,  >which  >>> fine threads will give you.
 >>>
 >>> Rick
 >>>
 >>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 5:55 AM, hank pronk  via
>Personal_Submersibles <  >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >>>
 >>>> Help I need advice!
 >>>> My new bow dome will be secured to the Al  mating ring with straps. 
 >I am
 >>>> laying out the bolt holes to be threaded in  the AL ring. ?My
>question is,  >>>> should the bolts be fine or coarse thread?
 What holds better in AL
 >? ?The
 >>>> threads will be 3/8 by 1 in deep.
 >>>> Thank you in advance.
 >>>> Hank
 >>>>
 _______________________________________________
 >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list  >>>>
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  >>>>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>> ------------------------------
 >>>
 >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 >>>
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>>
 >>>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 >>
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
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 >
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 >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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 Message: 2
 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:31:57 +0100
 From: Andr? Eriksen via Personal_Submersibles
????????<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
????????<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Specifications when ordering  shell
 Message-ID:

????????<CAMJapUYAXDcQwpr_qnr-TTUq+Hu=-jXUiKO6V-2JFk=vJAjFtw at mail.gmail.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 Thanks for the info guys! Made things abit clearer. The  company I`ve
talked  to is in Germany, and I live in Norway so I can`t go and  measure
the shell.

 This is the tolerances they gave me on a OD1000x1500 shell:

 OD +/- 2mm calculated out of >outside circumferential  length and real wall
thickness  Ovality max 4 mm, measured at both ends  Straightness 1mm/m max.
3 mm  Length - 0 / + 5 mm

 Is the ovality tolerance good enough?

 Regards
 Andr?

 2015-03-23 14:54 GMT+01:00 James Frankland via  Personal_Submersibles <
 personal_submersibles at psubs.org>:

 > Thanks for the clarification Steve.
 > Regards
 > James
 >
 > On 23 March 2015 at 12:18, Stephen Fordyce via  Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >
 >> Hi guys,
 >> The material certificate thing is all about quality  control and  >>
traceability of exactly what is the composition of  the elements in  >> it.
?Ie. when the steel gets smelted and  poured into a block (or whatever)  >>
at the mill, that particular batch gets analysed  for exact percentages  >>
of all elements, and all parts poured from that  batch are given the "heat
>> number" of the batch. ?Since the  certificate is meant to trace back to
the  >> original steel mill, it's often called a  "Mill Certificate".
 >>
 >> Each time the steel goes through a process (ie.
 rolling into sheet, the
 >> sheet formed into pipe or endcaps) there is a  chance the traceabilty to
the  >> original analysed composition could be lost, if the  material gets
mixed up  >> - and there are varying levels of quality control  that make
sure of this,  >> and these are reflected in different types of  material
certificates.
 >>
 >> The EN 3.1 cert is pretty high end (ie. good enough  for the SS304/316
>> cryogenic liquid ethane pressure vessels I'm  currently involved with at
>> work) and typical for most industrial applications  at least. ?I've not
come  >> across requirements for 3.2 (which is even more  stringent), and we
>> frequently work with lesser requirements than 3.1.
 >> Here's a good explanation of the difference:
 >>
 http://www.classicfilters.com/blog/materialcertificates/
 >>
 >> Tracing the material back to the mill is supposed  to be important in
case  >> there is a failure in another part in the same  batch, so it can
prevent  >> other failures. ?I've always thought the  whole
certificate/traceability  >> thing was just a PITA and that so long as you
get  steel or parts from  >> reputable suppliers who's QC practises you
trust, then that's just as  >> effective. ?Especially when you're  building
a big system with hundreds of  >> welded parts.
 >>
 >> Cheers,
 >> Steve
 >> (Among other things - mechanical engineer in  Melbourne, Australia)  >>
>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 10:55 PM, James Frankland  via  >>
Personal_Submersibles  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >>
 >>> Hi Andre,
 >>>
 >>> I was in this position some years ago.
 ?Not knowing what to specify on
 >>> the order.
 >>>
 >>> I believe the EN number is a certificate of the  material quality.
?Mine  >>> was done to EN10204.3.1.B but i never specified  it. ?I just
asked for the  >>> material type.
 >>>
 >>> So just ask for your dimensions of shell,  material, percentage of
round,  >>> bevel, weld.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Example.
 >>>
 >>> Shell. ?P355 Steel. ?10mm Thick.
 >>>
 >>> OD 1000mm x 2000mm length.
 >>> Shell to be within +\- 3mm on diameter.
 >>> Welded seam.
 >>> 35 degree external bevel with 2mm nose.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Something like that should do it. ?They  will send you a quote and
should  >>> tell you what material grade it what code they  will be working
to.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Make sure you specify clearly the tolerance of  roundness you want and
>>> say your not paying for it if its not right.
 ?They will probably need to
 >>> re-roll the cylinder.
 >>>
 >>> Ideally go to the factory with a wooden  template and measure the  >>>
cylinder before you accept it.
 >>>
 >>> Get the bevel put on, it will save you pain.
 ?But. don't bother with
 >>> grit blasting, you need to paint it straight  away after that or it
will  >>> start to oxidise again. ?By the time  you've finished your hull,
it will be  >>> all rusty again. ?Grit blast when  you've finished working
on the hull.
 >>>
 >>> Someone else may have some other suggestions.
 ?Comments.
 >>>
 >>> Hope this helps.
 >>>
 >>> Kind Regards
 >>> James
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> On 21 March 2015 at 22:30, Andr? Eriksen <  >>>
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 >>>
 >>>> Hi,
 >>>>
 >>>> I`m in the process of ordering the shell  and tower for my submarine.
 >>>> What specification should I ask for?
 (Europe)
 >>>>
 >>>> ?I asked for EN10204 with 3.1
 Sertificate (Not 100% sure of this, but  >>>> this is what I got when I
ordered the  endcaps from another company. 3.2  >>>> Sertificate was a bit
too expensive)  >>>> Told them I had no special requirements for  the plates
and needed no  >>>> edge preperation.
 >>>>
 >>>> *They replied*: "this is not the
 normal enquiry type, but we will not
 >>>> ask any longer" (?)
 >>>> And said the plates was going to be
 EN10028-3 with certificate 3.2.
 >>>>
 >>>> I want to keep the cost down, but should I  ask that they grit blast
>>>> the shell after rolling?
 >>>> Also I didn`t ask for bevel on the edges.
 Again to keep cost down. But
 >>>> maybe I should, to spare me the extra  work?
 >>>>
 >>>> May I ask what you tell your supplier when  ordrering?
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> -Andr?
 >>>>
 >>>>
 _______________________________________________
 >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list  >>>>
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org  >>>>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 _______________________________________________
 >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 >>>
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 >>
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >>
 >>
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
 >
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
 >
 >

 --
 Med Vennlig Hilsen / Regards
 *Andr? Eriksen*
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:11:17 +0100
From: Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'"
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dome straps
Message-ID:

<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAZwsRHrMgVEqOdYPpMxKVucKAAAAQ
AAAA1HfLMIZ9MUSt4xYM7PjaGAEAAAAA at airesearch.nl>

Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I got Neoprene rubber.
May be on the soft side..

Emile

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2015 20:46
Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dome straps

I cut my dome straps out today from a hemi tank head.  The nice thing about
this way of making the straps is the straps are all one piece and have a
compound curve so they fit real nice.
Any suggestions on a pad material to put under the straps are welcome. I was
thinking EPDM since I am ordering some for the gasket anyways. 
Hank
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:17:37 +0100
From: Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'"
	<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Specifications when ordering shell
Message-ID:

<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAZwsRHrMgVEqOdYPpMxKVucKAAAAQ
AAAAIsRMdB4zSUeumPoJRL0YUAEAAAAA at airesearch.nl>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The difference between 3.1 and 3.2 is that the material is stamped by a
employee who is licensed to do that.

With the 3.1 one certificate, it happens often that the material not belongs
to the batch on the papers..

4 mm ovality is a bit high for your deep diver but within 0,5 %

Regards, Emile

  _____  

Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
Namens Andr? Eriksen via Personal_Submersibles
Verzonden: maandag 23 maart 2015 16:32
Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Specifications when ordering shell

Thanks for the info guys! Made things abit clearer. The company I`ve talked
to is in Germany, and I live in Norway so I can`t go and measure the shell.

This is the tolerances they gave me on a OD1000x1500 shell:

OD +/- 2mm calculated out of >outside circumferential length and real wall
thickness Ovality max 4 mm, measured at both ends Straightness 1mm/m max. 3
mm Length - 0 / + 5 mm

Is the ovality tolerance good enough?

Regards

Andr?

2015-03-23 14:54 GMT+01:00 James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>:

Thanks for the clarification Steve.

Regards

James

On 23 March 2015 at 12:18, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hi guys,

The material certificate thing is all about quality control and traceability
of exactly what is the composition of the elements in it.  Ie. when the
steel gets smelted and poured into a block (or whatever) at the mill, that
particular batch gets analysed for exact percentages of all elements, and
all parts poured from that batch are given the "heat number" of the batch.
Since the certificate is meant to trace back to the original steel mill,
it's often called a "Mill Certificate".

Each time the steel goes through a process (ie. rolling into sheet, the
sheet formed into pipe or endcaps) there is a chance the traceabilty to the
original analysed composition could be lost, if the material gets mixed up -
and there are varying levels of quality control that make sure of this, and
these are reflected in different types of material certificates.

The EN 3.1 cert is pretty high end (ie. good enough for the SS304/316
cryogenic liquid ethane pressure vessels I'm currently involved with at
work) and typical for most industrial applications at least.  I've not come
across requirements for 3.2 (which is even more stringent), and we
frequently work with lesser requirements than 3.1.

Here's a good explanation of the difference:
http://www.classicfilters.com/blog/materialcertificates/

Tracing the material back to the mill is supposed to be important in case
there is a failure in another part in the same batch, so it can prevent
other failures.  I've always thought the whole certificate/traceability
thing was just a PITA and that so long as you get steel or parts from
reputable suppliers who's QC practises you trust, then that's just as
effective.  Especially when you're building a big system with hundreds of
welded parts.

Cheers,

Steve

(Among other things - mechanical engineer in Melbourne, Australia)

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 10:55 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hi Andre,

I was in this position some years ago.  Not knowing what to specify on the
order.  

I believe the EN number is a certificate of the material quality.  Mine was
done to EN10204.3.1.B but i never specified it.  I just asked for the
material type.  

So just ask for your dimensions of shell, material, percentage of round,
bevel, weld.

Example.

Shell.  P355 Steel.  10mm Thick.

OD 1000mm x 2000mm length.

Shell to be within +\- 3mm on diameter.

Welded seam.

35 degree external bevel with 2mm nose.

Something like that should do it.  They will send you a quote and should
tell you what material grade it what code they will be working to. 

Make sure you specify clearly the tolerance of roundness you want and say
your not paying for it if its not right.  They will probably need to re-roll
the cylinder.

Ideally go to the factory with a wooden template and measure the cylinder
before you accept it.

Get the bevel put on, it will save you pain.  But. don't bother with grit
blasting, you need to paint it straight away after that or it will start to
oxidise again.  By the time you've finished your hull, it will be all rusty
again.  Grit blast when you've finished working on the hull.  

Someone else may have some other suggestions.  Comments.

Hope this helps. 

Kind Regards

James

On 21 March 2015 at 22:30, Andr? Eriksen <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote:

Hi,

I`m in the process of ordering the shell and tower for my submarine.

What specification should I ask for? (Europe) 

 I asked for EN10204 with 3.1 Sertificate (Not 100% sure of this, but this
is what I got when I ordered the endcaps from another company. 3.2
Sertificate was a bit too expensive)

Told them I had no special requirements for the plates and needed no edge
preperation.

They replied: "this is not the normal enquiry type, but we will not ask any
longer" (?)

And said the plates was going to be EN10028-3 with certificate 3.2.

I want to keep the cost down, but should I ask that they grit blast the
shell after rolling?

Also I didn`t ask for bevel on the edges. Again to keep cost down. But maybe
I should, to spare me the extra work?

May I ask what you tell your supplier when ordrering?

-Andr?

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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-- 

Med Vennlig Hilsen / Regards

Andr? Eriksen

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