From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 05:05:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:05:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster References: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Updated version with Hanks suggestion of a channel directto the motor cavity.I have also added a bearing at the wiring end of the motor shaft.I am not sure about this. It would be easier engineering wise, to locate the motor ina central back bearing & have the holes for the locating pins a bit over sized,rather than a tight fit. That way they would only serve to stop the rotation of the back section of the motor. According to my propeller calculator, adding anothershaft bearing will reduce the power output by 1.5%.Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MK 2 Thruster 2 shaft bearings.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 170990 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 08:25:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 06:25:36 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1de538-1708-458c-988a-b9a667f76bea@email.android.com> Alan, I am unclear as to what purpose the inner seal is serving, given that you have the same fluid at the same pressure on both sides? If you are compensating with positive pressure, an outer seal failure will result in losing some compensating oil to sea, until the pressure is equalized to sea pressure, at which point you may have communication through the outer seal, but no pressure differential to drive fluid transfer. As such, only incidental admission of seawater will occur, but you have a communication channel to your motor compartment bypassing the inner seal, which puts the motor at risk. An inner seal failure alone in your embodiment is entirely inconsequential, and if it is there as a failsafe in case of accidentally developing negative compensation pressure, you defeat that purpose by allowing the intermediate volume to communicate with the motor chamber. When I design mission-critical sealing arrangements, I use the following rule-of-thumb: Use a seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. This ensures that any incidental leakage as a result of dynamic seal movement is usually inconsequential. Accordingly, I might look at your design to see if I could somehow arrange to have the motor compartment at a slight positive pressure for compensation (using either central compensation or a compensation tube or bladder with spring bias to elevate the pressure), and then the inner seal sealing between that oil at slight positive pressure and oil at sea pressure in the isolated intermediate volume so that incidental leakage is oil to oil and inconsequential (using an unbiased compensator for this volume), and then the outer seal sealing that oil at sea pressure against seawater at sea pressure, so no differential exists. If you do that, here is the failure analysis: An inner seal failure will cause oil to move from the motor compartment to the intermediate compartment as a result of the positive pressure. If the displacement of the unbiased compensator on the intermediate chamber is limited, and the displacement of the biased compensator on the motor compartment is large enough to bring the unbiased one on the adjacent chamber to that limit, then you simply end up with the intermediate chamber also being compensated at positive pressure, and the outer seal does a little more work but maintains the arrangement's integrity. Conversely, if you had an outer seal failure, seawater is permitted to communicate with the oil in the intermediate chamber, but there is no pressure differential to drive mixing of the fluids, and in any case, the intermediate chamber remains isolated from the motor compartment which is at slight positive pressure, sealed by the inner seal. Anywhere you employ seals with zero pressure differential across them, they need to be of a spring energized type since the pressure can't do it. Anyway, just a few things to think about. Sean On April 1, 2016 3:05:09 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Updated version with Hanks suggestion of a channel directto the motor >cavity.I have also added a bearing at the wiring end of the motor >shaft.I am not sure about this. It would be easier engineering wise, to >locate the motor ina central back bearing & have the holes for the >locating pins a bit over sized,rather than a tight fit. That way they >would only serve to stop the rotation of the back section of the motor. >According to my propeller calculator, adding anothershaft bearing will >reduce the power output by 1.5%.Alan > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 08:29:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 08:29:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager Message-ID: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it will take you through all the functions which most in this group will recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as the main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two joy-sticks that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached image). Any HDMI capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a secondary display. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: scm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 273233 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 08:40:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:40:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <787241865.800628.1459514424588.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,If you put the new channel at the bottom instead of the top-when you fill the motor with oil, the air will be push out of the seal cavity. ?The way you have it the air will burp out and it will be messy to fill. ?Pins should always be tight or they will wear. ?Four pins will be a bugger to drill and fit precisely. ?If you go with the rear bearing you only need one pin that is a bit bigger. ?Machining a bearing seat is easy with one pin to hold it. ?Or you can eliminate the rear bearing if the motor is tight in the housing.Hank On Friday, April 1, 2016 3:05 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Updated version with Hanks suggestion of a channel directto the motor cavity.I have also added a bearing at the wiring end of the motor shaft.I am not sure about this. It would be easier engineering wise, to locate the motor ina central back bearing & have the holes for the locating pins a bit over sized,rather than a tight fit. That way they would only serve to stop the rotation of the back section of the motor. According to my propeller calculator, adding anothershaft bearing will reduce the power output by 1.5%.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 09:00:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 07:00:10 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> Message-ID: <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> Jon, that's a really slick UI. Not cluttered, intuitive, etc. I write a lot of code, but I have never been particularly skilled at the front end. I'm strictly an algorithm / logic / control guy. Some people have a knack for it though, and it looks like you fall in that category. Sean On April 1, 2016 6:29:19 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have >developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it >will take you through all the functions which most in this group will >recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as >the >main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two >joy-sticks that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached >image). Any HDMI capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a >secondary display. > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 09:20:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:20:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> Message-ID: That's gorgeous! I'm curious though about the pitch and roll, it would seem you wrote it for a "flyer" sub. One data point that would be a great addition would be altitude over bottom. Not sure if you've figured a sensor for that, but if there is one it would be great to display right next to and analogous to depth. Best, Alec On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have > developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it will > take you through all the functions which most in this group will > recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as the > main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two joy-sticks > that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached image). Any HDMI > capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a secondary display. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 09:26:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:26:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> Message-ID: <56FE76FC.6070600@psubs.org> Thanks Sean. It has taken 9-months (part-time) to get it to this point and it's been a challenge to get everything to fit onto such a small display (800x480). I consider this production ready at this point but two future enhancements will be auto-pilot and incorporating video from external cameras. Jon On 4/1/2016 9:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, that's a really slick UI. Not cluttered, intuitive, etc. I write > a lot of code, but I have never been particularly skilled at the front > end. I'm strictly an algorithm / logic / control guy. Some people > have a knack for it though, and it looks like you fall in that category. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 09:46:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:46:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56FE7BAF.1030203@psubs.org> Hi Alec, Pitch and roll on a K-sub are negligible but the sensors are "free", part of the electronic compass, so I added them to the display. The pitch might come in handy to help with longitudinal balancing. Roll...well if I ever get stuck on a sloped bottom I can radio to the rescue divers "you can't miss me, I'm the sub leaning port at a 25 degree angle". I think Cliff pointed us to a depth sounder/speed combination sensor that he is using which would work well for altitude over bottom. It would be easy to add that into the software, just a matter of getting a unit and testing it. One thing that the demo fails at is my implementation of MATILDA, audio warnings corresponding to the yellow/red alerts that are displayed for various sensors. A yellow alert sounds a gentle "ding-dong" sound followed by the sensor name spoken by a computerized voice (female of course) and a red alarm sounds a high pitch smoke-alarm sound followed by the sensor name spoken by MATILDA. I was too lazy to set things up to record the audio for this demo but will do that at a later date and of course will have it available for the convention in July. Jon On 4/1/2016 9:20 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > That's gorgeous! I'm curious though about the pitch and roll, it would > seem you wrote it for a "flyer" sub. One data point that would be a > great addition would be altitude over bottom. Not sure if you've > figured a sensor for that, but if there is one it would be great to > display right next to and analogous to depth. > > Best, > > Alec > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:01:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:01:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> Message-ID: Jon, beautiful job on hmi. I am with Alec on adding altitude display. I have found this to be very helpful in operating my boat and easy to implement. I did not see any online documentation in your hmi such as emergency bailout procedure, manuvering controls, fuses/breakers, surface and underwater comms... I found adding info screens helpful when training pilots. Cliff On Friday, April 1, 2016, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, that's a really slick UI. Not cluttered, intuitive, etc. I write a > lot of code, but I have never been particularly skilled at the front end. > I'm strictly an algorithm / logic / control guy. Some people have a knack > for it though, and it looks like you fall in that category. > > Sean > > > On April 1, 2016 6:29:19 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: >> >> >> A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have >> developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it >> will take you through all the functions which most in this group will >> recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as the >> main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two >> joy-sticks that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached >> image). Any HDMI capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a >> secondary display. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 09:58:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:58:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1e1de538-1708-458c-988a-b9a667f76bea@email.android.com> References: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1e1de538-1708-458c-988a-b9a667f76bea@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1802544521.1091414.1459519114767.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,thanks for the comments.The system is based on one described in this ex military document called"Rotary Shaft Seal Selection Handbook For Pressure Equalized Deep Ocean Equipment". http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0889330&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdfIt is called a double seal redundant arrangement as apposed to the other systemfeatured which is the double seal cascaded. The double seal cascaded has a pressuredrop from the motor compartment to the seal cavity & again to the water, as you described.To do the double seal cascaded it would require an additional compensator & Ididn't think it warranted that. In?my redundant system there will be a 4psi above ambient internal pressure generatedby an air regulator. (as Cliff is using)The external seal sees all the abrasives & anything else external that will degrade it,& is the first seal to fail. It should fail with oil going out rather than water coming in, butthe document talks about an unpredictable pumping action that the seal can generatethat can overcome the small pressure differential & pump water in. In the event ofwater entering the cavity,? it should sink (eventually) to the?sight tube?at the bottom. The wiring runs?up a clear tube as does the compensating oil. I may add an electronicoil level indicator but initially I will be able to see what's happening.I have used nitrile lip seals (spring type) because I don't want a lot of pressure on theshaft & because the thruster is so tiny I didn't want larger face seals taking up space.Also with the 10mm shaft ( with circlip grooves) I didn't want a long distance from the last bearing to the prop in case the shaft oscillated when running.I will think a bit more about the cascaded system, & see if there is a cheap simpleway of doing it.Cheers Alan? From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 1:25 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan, I am unclear as to what purpose the inner seal is serving, given that you have the same fluid at the same pressure on both sides?? If you are compensating with positive pressure, an outer seal failure will result in losing some compensating oil to sea, until the pressure is equalized to sea pressure, at which point you may have communication through the outer seal, but no pressure differential to drive fluid transfer. As such, only incidental admission of seawater will occur, but you have a communication channel to your motor compartment bypassing the inner seal, which puts the motor at risk.? An inner seal failure alone in your embodiment is entirely inconsequential, and if it is there as a failsafe in case of accidentally developing negative compensation pressure, you defeat that purpose by allowing the intermediate volume to communicate with the motor chamber.When I design mission-critical sealing arrangements, I use the following rule-of-thumb: Use a seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. This ensures that any incidental leakage as a result of dynamic seal movement is usually inconsequential. Accordingly, I might look at your design to see if I could somehow arrange to have the motor compartment at a slight positive pressure for compensation (using either central compensation or a compensation tube or bladder with spring bias to elevate the pressure), and then the inner seal sealing between that oil at slight positive pressure and oil at sea pressure in the isolated intermediate volume so that incidental leakage is oil to oil and inconsequential (using an unbiased compensator for this volume), and then the outer seal sealing that oil at sea pressure against seawater at sea pressure, so no differential exists. If you do that, here is the failure analysis:An inner seal failure will cause oil to move from the motor compartment to the intermediate compartment as a result of the positive pressure. If the displacement of the unbiased compensator on the intermediate chamber is limited, and the displacement of the biased compensator on the motor compartment is large enough to bring the unbiased one on the adjacent chamber to that limit, then you simply end up with the intermediate chamber also being compensated at positive pressure, and the outer seal does a little more work but maintains the arrangement's integrity.Conversely, if you had an outer seal failure, seawater is permitted to communicate with the oil in the intermediate chamber, but there is no pressure differential to drive mixing of the fluids, and in any case, the intermediate chamber remains isolated from the motor compartment which is at slight positive pressure, sealed by the inner seal.Anywhere you employ seals with zero pressure differential across them, they need to be of a spring energized type since the pressure can't do it.Anyway, just a few things to think about.Sean On April 1, 2016 3:05:09 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Updated version with Hanks suggestion of a channel directto the motor cavity.I have also added a bearing at the wiring end of the motor shaft.I am not sure about this. It would be easier engineering wise, to locate the motor ina central back bearing & have the holes for the locating pins a bit over sized,rather than a tight fit. That way they would only serve to stop the rotation of the back section of the motor. According to my propeller calculator, adding anothersh! aftbearing will reduce the power output by 1.5%.Alan Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:06:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 08:06:47 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56FE7BAF.1030203@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56FE7BAF.1030203@psubs.org> Message-ID: <735d0c11-6c40-4d17-ba8d-934c416d8820@email.android.com> What is MATILDA? Did you refer to e.g. the ABS ergonomics guide or other references when designing your alarms? Sean On April 1, 2016 7:46:23 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi Alec, > >Pitch and roll on a K-sub are negligible but the sensors are "free", >part of the electronic compass, so I added them to the display. The >pitch might come in handy to help with longitudinal balancing. >Roll...well if I ever get stuck on a sloped bottom I can radio to the >rescue divers "you can't miss me, I'm the sub leaning port at a 25 >degree angle". > >I think Cliff pointed us to a depth sounder/speed combination sensor >that he is using which would work well for altitude over bottom. It >would be easy to add that into the software, just a matter of getting a > >unit and testing it. > >One thing that the demo fails at is my implementation of MATILDA, audio > >warnings corresponding to the yellow/red alerts that are displayed for >various sensors. A yellow alert sounds a gentle "ding-dong" sound >followed by the sensor name spoken by a computerized voice (female of >course) and a red alarm sounds a high pitch smoke-alarm sound followed >by the sensor name spoken by MATILDA. I was too lazy to set things up >to record the audio for this demo but will do that at a later date and >of course will have it available for the convention in July. > >Jon > > >On 4/1/2016 9:20 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> That's gorgeous! I'm curious though about the pitch and roll, it >would >> seem you wrote it for a "flyer" sub. One data point that would be a >> great addition would be altitude over bottom. Not sure if you've >> figured a sensor for that, but if there is one it would be great to >> display right next to and analogous to depth. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:11:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:11:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <787241865.800628.1459514424588.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1881882674.992888.1459501510086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <787241865.800628.1459514424588.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <693098607.1031429.1459519872887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,the motor is an outrunner & the whole can of the motor rotates apart from the back section, so I can't locate the motor tight in the housing. Thanks for the thoughts on the precision machining of the pin holes, that confirms what I was thinking. I can drill the holes?over size?if I use the bearing, as the pins only stop the motor rotating & the slop will only be noticed going from forward to reverse.The shaft from the seal compartment has to go on the high side as any water that gets in will sink.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 1:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan,If you put the new channel at the bottom instead of the top-when you fill the motor with oil, the air will be push out of the seal cavity. ?The way you have it the air will burp out and it will be messy to fill. ?Pins should always be tight or they will wear. ?Four pins will be a bugger to drill and fit precisely. ?If you go with the rear bearing you only need one pin that is a bit bigger. ?Machining a bearing seat is easy with one pin to hold it. ?Or you can eliminate the rear bearing if the motor is tight in the housing.Hank On Friday, April 1, 2016 3:05 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Updated version with Hanks suggestion of a channel directto the motor cavity.I have also added a bearing at the wiring end of the motor shaft.I am not sure about this. It would be easier engineering wise, to locate the motor ina central back bearing & have the holes for the locating pins a bit over sized,rather than a tight fit. That way they would only serve to stop the rotation of the back section of the motor. According to my propeller calculator, adding anothershaft bearing will reduce the power output by 1.5%.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:15:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:15:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <735d0c11-6c40-4d17-ba8d-934c416d8820@email.android.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56FE7BAF.1030203@psubs.org> <735d0c11-6c40-4d17-ba8d-934c416d8820@email.android.com> Message-ID: <643503535.1039568.1459520127560.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Pretty Cool Jon,Sean just bet me to it with the question regarding if it covers ABSrequirements.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 3:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager What is MATILDA? Did you refer to e.g. the ABS ergonomics guide or other references when designing your alarms?Sean On April 1, 2016 7:46:23 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, Pitch and roll on a K-sub are negligible but the sensors are "free", part of the electronic compass, so I added them to the display. The pitch might come in handy to help with longitudinal balancing. Roll...well if I ever get stuck on a sloped bottom I can radio to the rescue divers "you can't miss me, I'm the sub leaning port at a 25 degree angle". I think Cliff pointed us to a depth sounder/speed combination sensor that he is using which would work well for altitude over bottom. It would be easy to add that into the software, just a matter of getting a unit and testing it. One thing that the demo fails at is my implementation of MATILDA, audio warnings corresponding to the yellow/red alerts that are displayed for various sensors. A yellow alert sounds a gentle "ding-dong" sound followed by the sensor name spoken by a computerized voice (! female of course) and a red alarm sounds a high pitch smoke-alarm sound followed by the sensor name spoken by MATILDA. I was too lazy to set things up to record the audio for this demo but will do that at a later date and of course will have it available for the convention in July. Jon On 4/1/2016 9:20 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's gorgeous! I'm curious though about the pitch and roll, it would seem you wrote it for a "flyer" sub. One data point that would be a great addition would be altitude over bottom. Not sure if you've figured a sensor for that, but if there is one it would be great to display right next to and analogous to depth. Best, Alec Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:21:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:21:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <643503535.1039568.1459520127560.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <643503535.1039568.1459520127560.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <441136294.833169.1459520498590.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Amazing that you can create that.Hank On Friday, April 1, 2016 8:18 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pretty Cool Jon,Sean just bet me to it with the question regarding if it covers ABSrequirements.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 3:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager What is MATILDA? Did you refer to e.g. the ABS ergonomics guide or other references when designing your alarms?Sean On April 1, 2016 7:46:23 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, Pitch and roll on a K-sub are negligible but the sensors are "free", part of the electronic compass, so I added them to the display. The pitch might come in handy to help with longitudinal balancing. Roll...well if I ever get stuck on a sloped bottom I can radio to the rescue divers "you can't miss me, I'm the sub leaning port at a 25 degree angle". I think Cliff pointed us to a depth sounder/speed combination sensor that he is using which would work well for altitude over bottom. It would be easy to add that into the software, just a matter of getting a unit and testing it. One thing that the demo fails at is my implementation of MATILDA, audio warnings corresponding to the yellow/red alerts that are displayed for various sensors. A yellow alert sounds a gentle "ding-dong" sound followed by the sensor name spoken by a computerized voice (! female of course) and a red alarm sounds a high pitch smoke-alarm sound followed by the sensor name spoken by MATILDA. I was too lazy to set things up to record the audio for this demo but will do that at a later date and of course will have it available for the convention in July. Jon On 4/1/2016 9:20 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's gorgeous! I'm curious though about the pitch and roll, it would seem you wrote it for a "flyer" sub. One data point that would be a great addition would be altitude over bottom. Not sure if you've figured a sensor for that, but if there is one it would be great to display right next to and analogous to depth. Best, Alec Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:50:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:50:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> Message-ID: <56FE8AC8.3070903@psubs.org> Cliff, documentation is something I will implement including a check-off list. Alerts and alarms will be documented as well, press on the visual alarm box and it will give guidance on low/high parameters and potential resolutions to the problem. Sean/Alan, I did not consult ABS regarding alerts/alarms, I will do that. MATILDA is just an arbitrary name I came up with for the audio alarms. It's just a female text-to-speech recordings added to an alarm sound. I call her MATILDA for absolutely no reason at all. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 10:59:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 08:59:08 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56FE8AC8.3070903@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> <56FE8AC8.3070903@psubs.org> Message-ID: My Attempt To Implement Loud Damned Alarms (MATILDA)? ;-) Alarms are in section 4 of the ABS ergonomics guide. Sean On April 1, 2016 8:50:48 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Cliff, documentation is something I will implement including a >check-off >list. Alerts and alarms will be documented as well, press on the >visual >alarm box and it will give guidance on low/high parameters and >potential >resolutions to the problem. > >Sean/Alan, I did not consult ABS regarding alerts/alarms, I will do >that. MATILDA is just an arbitrary name I came up with for the audio >alarms. It's just a female text-to-speech recordings added to an alarm > >sound. I call her MATILDA for absolutely no reason at all. > >Jon > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 11:11:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:11:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> <56FE8AC8.3070903@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56FE8F92.2010601@psubs.org> Ah yes, I knew it was an acronym for something. :) On 4/1/2016 10:59 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My Attempt To Implement Loud Damned Alarms (MATILDA)? > > ;-) > > Alarms are in section 4 of the ABS ergonomics guide. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 11:22:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:22:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <86ec7fd0-4787-4f5a-81e5-b45a1c1e19e1@email.android.com> <56FE8AC8.3070903@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56FE9227.8010906@psubs.org> Just took a cursory look at the ABS specs and it looks like I'm about 98% compliance. Suppose to flash the visual alarm until it is acknowledged then let it go steady till resolved, and audio alarms are suppose to be within a certain frequency...I'll have to check that. I'll take a deeper look at the doc in the coming days. From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 14:57:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=AF=C2=BB=C2=BFAl_Secor?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 18:57:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager References: <112192577.983262.1459537038364.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <112192577.983262.1459537038364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, To be all inclusive, wouldn't you also want to monitor battery bank voltage and current draw and HP air tank pressures? Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/1/16, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Friday, April 1, 2016, 11:22 AM Just took a cursory look at the ABS specs and it looks like I'm about 98% compliance.? Suppose to flash the visual alarm until it is acknowledged then let it go steady till resolved, and audio alarms are suppose to be within a certain frequency...I'll have to check that.? I'll take a deeper look at the doc in the coming days. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 18:00:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 18:00:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <112192577.983262.1459537038364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <112192577.983262.1459537038364.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <112192577.983262.1459537038364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56FEEF6F.6090204@psubs.org> Hi Al, Tank pressures for sure, as soon as I get a transducer to feed the microprocessor. I'll need a manifold that I can tap the transducer into. There are some ready made voltage and current sensors with built in LED displays that I may opt for and mount separately. On 4/1/2016 2:57 PM, ???Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > > To be all inclusive, wouldn't you also want to monitor battery bank voltage and current draw and HP air tank pressures? > > Al Secor > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 1 19:18:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 12:18:36 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> Very nice John. Should have come to you years ago. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 2 April 2016 1:29 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it will take you through all the functions which most in this group will recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as the main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two joy-sticks that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached image). Any HDMI capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a secondary display. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 2 11:52:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2016 15:52:56 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jon, Great job. We're the graphic elements your design or a canned product. Can't wait to see the finished product. On Fri, Apr 1, 2016, 4:19 PM Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Very nice John. Should have come to you years ago. Hugh > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, 2 April 2016 1:29 a.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager > > > A video demo of the latest Submarine Control Manager software I have > developed for Aquatic. No sound, but follow the mouse pointer and it will > take you through all the functions which most in this group will > recognize. I am currently using a 7-inch capacitive touch-screen as the > main display to allow hand-held control of the vessel with two joy-sticks > that will provide "fine" propulsion control (see attached image). Any HDMI > capable monitor can be used simultaneously as a secondary display. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkGYM6V2a4 > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 2 13:01:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 10:01:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager Message-ID: <20160402100126.A02EE27D@m0086238.ppops.net> Really cool Jon, with all the resources of this group we could have all the major components of a complete sub ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 18:00:15 -0400 Hi Al, Tank pressures for sure, as soon as I get a transducer to feed the microprocessor. I'll need a manifold that I can tap the transducer into. There are some ready made voltage and current sensors with built in LED displays that I may opt for and mount separately. On 4/1/2016 2:57 PM, ???Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > > To be all inclusive, wouldn't you also want to monitor battery bank voltage and current draw and HP air tank pressures? > > Al Secor > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 3 12:52:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 12:52:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> Hi David, Nothing was canned. About half the icons that represent buttons to click on are PNG images that were taken from various free image web sites, the rest I had to create, but all required modification to be represented the way I wanted them on the display. The main displays (nav display with depth, vrate, and compass), the sensor gauges, artificial horizon, are all drawn by software 30 frames per second. I reduced the demo to 5 frames per second which is why it looks a little choppy. Circles and arc's were the biggest challenge for me because of the geometric formula's the software uses to produce them. I haven't done algebra or geometry seriously for over 40 years, damn theta! But some youtube geometry videos got me what I needed to get past this. The overall layout is all custom and rather tedious because placement is by pixel. If you lay down a circle where you think you want it and it's off a little bit you have to go back to the code and redefine where you want it...repeat until you get it exactly where you want it. Changing resolution is also painful, there is no scaling available. So if you code it for 1200x600 resolution and then decide you want a display that only has 800x480 resolution you have to go back in and change the pixel placement of everything. There were numerous software and hardware hurdles to get over. I'm planning on talking about this at the convention so will have many details there. Jon On 4/2/2016 11:52 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, Great job. We're the graphic elements your design or a canned > product. Can't wait to see the finished product. > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 3 13:19:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 11:19:29 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Convention Message-ID: <007eba44-cbc4-4b6d-9a49-70ec6d4fa691@email.android.com> Apologies for being out of the loop on this. I tend to go through phases where I will follow the list discussions for a couple of weeks, and then let that fall by the wayside for a couple of weeks while I focus on other things... In any case, I was wondering what has been planned for a convention this year? When Jon mentioned it in his message I just realized that I'm totally in the dark. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 3 20:39:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 20:39:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? In-Reply-To: References: <20160107093459.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e31ee82479.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <568FCDC1.60903@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> Sean, not a lot of plans yet but we need to start that asap. Location is Lake Seneca NY, and dates are Jul 26-31 although that may get cut down to 28-31 depending upon what we end up with for final events. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 3 20:47:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 20:47:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? In-Reply-To: <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> References: <20160107093459.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e31ee82479.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <568FCDC1.60903@psubs.org> <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> Steve McQueen, Scott Waters, Al Secor, anyone else that wants to help in the planning...I'll create a separate list for planning purposes. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 3 21:44:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 21:44:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? In-Reply-To: <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> References: <20160107093459.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e31ee82479.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <568FCDC1.60903@psubs.org> <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> Message-ID: I can take some assignments. I will wait to get plugged in via the seperate planning list. On Apr 3, 2016 8:48 PM, "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Steve McQueen, Scott Waters, Al Secor, anyone else that wants to help in > the planning...I'll create a separate list for planning purposes. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 06:02:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 12:02:24 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FW: O2 meter met instelbaar alarm grenswaarden Message-ID: FYI, Nice cheap O2 analyzer with alarm on Dutch Ebay. Sensor needs replacement. Regards, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Johan [mailto:johan at technodiving.nl] Verzonden: vrijdag 1 april 2016 22:22 Aan: emile at airesearch.nl Onderwerp: O2 meter met instelbaar alarm grenswaarden http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/duiken-en-zwemsport/m1035085 143-o2-meter.html Niet veel geld voor een apparaat met alarm erin. -- Ik vertrouw erop dat u hiermee voldoende bent ge?nformeerd. Voor meer informatie kunt u mij bereiken middels onderstaande mogelijkheden. Ik zie uw reactie met belangstelling tegemoet. Met vriendelijke groet, Johan ten Have Tank Diving Overmaterhoek 6 8131 SV Wijhe Tel direct: +316 234 22588 (Operations) e-mail: info at tankdiving.nl url: www.tankdiving.nl VCA-VOL gecertificeerd. From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 17:13:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:13:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] esmarelda launch Message-ID: <20160404141359.8BBB5E45@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 18:00:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:00:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] esmarelda launch In-Reply-To: <20160404141359.8BBB5E45@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160404141359.8BBB5E45@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <702470172.2269958.1459807224040.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Brian,That is great news, and of coarse there will be some issues. ?Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 3:14 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? Just got back from my initial launch/test at the harbor.? Kind of a mixed bag of good and bad.? When?we dropped it in the water it floated just where I had hoped it would. and was quite stable.? I have some problems with the concrete hull in that I have a bunch of small leaks around the edges where I have bolt penetrations , those leaks make it so the ballast starts taking on water , I thought I had addressed those leaks earlier but no.?? So then we decided that I might as well see where I'm at with the ballast totally flooded,? started flooding the ballast and it soon became apparent that the side to side stability could be a problem.? I was on the conning tower trying to make the thing tip over and I'm pretty sure if I kept at is I could have done so.? So I need to address that .?? I came in at around 7 tones .? Once I process the video I'll post a link.?? But with all things considered I'm happy to know where I'm at least.? Getting in down to the harbor and back on the trailer was an accomplishment in it self !?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 20:34:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:34:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <788909645.2322119.1459816477194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a short video of my launch procedure for Elementary 3000Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 6:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: MVI 0327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZzUHefFOdA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 21:54:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 01:54:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] esmarelda launch In-Reply-To: <20160404141359.8BBB5E45@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160404141359.8BBB5E45@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1337709197.2976190.1459821259339.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Brian,congratulations on getting her in the water.There are certain situations when filling the ballast tanks that the center of gravitycan move above the center of buoyancy & then drop below it again. Maybe once theconcrete ballast tanks submerge fully it will become more stable, as they will become lighter in the water. You wouldn't want to tip upside down with open?vents in thebottom of your ballast tank though. You mightn't be able to get upright again or out.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 9:13 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] esmarelda launch Hi All,?????????????? Just got back from my initial launch/test at the harbor.? Kind of a mixed bag of good and bad.? When?we dropped it in the water it floated just where I had hoped it would. and was quite stable.? I have some problems with the concrete hull in that I have a bunch of small leaks around the edges where I have bolt penetrations , those leaks make it so the ballast starts taking on water , I thought I had addressed those leaks earlier but no.?? So then we decided that I might as well see where I'm at with the ballast totally flooded,? started flooding the ballast and it soon became apparent that the side to side stability could be a problem.? I was on the conning tower trying to make the thing tip over and I'm pretty sure if I kept at is I could have done so.? So I need to address that .?? I came in at around 7 tones .? Once I process the video I'll post a link.?? But with all things considered I'm happy to know where I'm at least.? Getting in down to the harbor and back on the trailer was an accomplishment in it self !?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 22:10:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 02:10:03 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?OTS_thru_hull?= Message-ID: <57031f0c.e7148c0a.f577a.fffff9b1@mx.google.com> Poking around the OTS site and noticed they have a thru hull. Sufficient for a K350? Thoughts? Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 22:09:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 02:09:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch In-Reply-To: <788909645.2322119.1459816477194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <788909645.2322119.1459816477194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <826029511.2940652.1459822186519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Hank,looked easy. Noted that you got in the car in your wet waders.Now if you put remote control on your horizontal thrusters youwouldn't need to get out of the ute to launch it.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 12:34 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch Here is a short video of my launch procedure for Elementary 3000Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 6:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: MVI 0327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZzUHefFOdA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 22:20:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 02:20:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch In-Reply-To: <826029511.2940652.1459822186519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <826029511.2940652.1459822186519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1423794963.2388710.1459822856885.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I know, I loved that about your sub. ?I was in a hurry with my waders because I was filming. ?It was all good though, the seat was dry when I left.Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 8:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank,looked easy. Noted that you got in the car in your wet waders.Now if you put remote control on your horizontal thrusters youwouldn't need to get out of the ute to launch it.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 12:34 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch Here is a short video of my launch procedure for Elementary 3000Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 6:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: MVI 0327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZzUHefFOdA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 4 23:28:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS thru hull In-Reply-To: <57031f0c.e7148c0a.f577a.fffff9b1@mx.google.com> References: <57031f0c.e7148c0a.f577a.fffff9b1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <570330C0.60706@psubs.org> Not as shown I don't think since it's intended for surface boat use. Mods would almost certainly be required to survive K350 operating pressures and at $1200 I don't think I'd go down that road. Jon On 4/4/2016 10:10 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Poking around the OTS site and noticed they have a thru hull. > Sufficient for a K350? Thoughts? > > Brian > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 01:18:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:18:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch In-Reply-To: <788909645.2322119.1459816477194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <788909645.2322119.1459816477194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d18efa$94966ef0$bdc34cd0$@telus.net> Looks great, Hank. Happy to note that your truck wasn't in salt water during the launch. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 5:35 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch Here is a short video of my launch procedure for Elementary 3000 Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 6:33 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: MVI 0327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZzUHefFOdA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 05:36:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 09:36:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch In-Reply-To: <000001d18efa$94966ef0$bdc34cd0$@telus.net> References: <000001d18efa$94966ef0$bdc34cd0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <786288798.2524163.1459848967441.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Tim,I am very spoiled here with fresh water-I was in a rush so I went in a bit deeper than normal. ?I usually stop when I hear bubbles from my exhaust :-)Hank On Monday, April 4, 2016 11:20 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5698937629 #yiv5698937629 -- _filtered #yiv5698937629 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5698937629 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5698937629 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv5698937629 #yiv5698937629 p.yiv5698937629MsoNormal, #yiv5698937629 li.yiv5698937629MsoNormal, #yiv5698937629 div.yiv5698937629MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5698937629 a:link, #yiv5698937629 span.yiv5698937629MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5698937629 a:visited, #yiv5698937629 span.yiv5698937629MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5698937629 span.yiv5698937629EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5698937629 .yiv5698937629MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5698937629 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv5698937629 div.yiv5698937629WordSection1 {}#yiv5698937629 Looks great, Hank.? Happy to note that your truck wasn't in salt water during the launch.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 5:35 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: sub launch ?Here is a short video of my launch procedure for Elementary 3000Hank ?On Monday, April 4, 2016 6:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ?MVI 0327 ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZzUHefFOdA ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 12:28:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:28:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Pisces_VI?= Message-ID: <20160405162842.24560.qmail@server268.com> Hey everyone, I wanted to extend a invitation to anyone wanting to help out anytime during the disassembly of Pisces VI. We will be doing this May 3 - May 17. Anyone interested, please contact me. Meals will be provided by Katy's amazing cooking and we have a little extra space if a place to stay is needed by those on a budget. Thank you, Scott Waters From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 17:11:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:11:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Launch video Esmae Message-ID: <20160405141117.E7719F11@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 17:13:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 21:13:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI References: <111298514.3826369.1459890831445.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <111298514.3826369.1459890831445.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott, Please post lots of pics. Pete -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/5/16, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2016, 11:28 AM Hey everyone, I wanted to extend a invitation to anyone wanting to help out anytime during the disassembly of Pisces VI. We will be doing this May 3 - May 17. Anyone interested, please contact me. Meals will be provided by Katy's amazing cooking and we have a little extra space if a place to stay is needed by those on a budget. Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 18:07:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:07:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Launch video Esmae In-Reply-To: <20160405141117.E7719F11@m0087798.ppops.net> References: <20160405141117.E7719F11@m0087798.ppops.net> Message-ID: <673717952.2930898.1459894023427.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,You are the MAN! ?wow pretty classy launch. ?Looks like you need a ton or two of lead in her still.Hank On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 3:11 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here is a video of the launch.? There is some additional video with it flooded and me trying to tip it over , but someone else took that , will get that posted later.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtyUVfKmZd8?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 18:12:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 15:12:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI In-Reply-To: <20160405162842.24560.qmail@server268.com> References: <20160405162842.24560.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: Hi Where do you live ? Philippe Robert Le 5 avr. 2016 12:30 PM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> a ?crit : > Hey everyone, > > I wanted to extend a invitation to anyone wanting to help out anytime > during the disassembly of Pisces VI. We will be doing this May 3 - May 17. > Anyone interested, please contact me. Meals will be provided by Katy's > amazing cooking and we have a little extra space if a place to stay is > needed by those on a budget. > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 18:14:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:14:05 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI Message-ID: I will. The new shop is about complete.?Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/05/2016 4:13 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI Scott, Please post lots of pics. Pete -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/5/16, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2016, 11:28 AM Hey everyone, I wanted to extend a invitation to anyone wanting to help out anytime during the disassembly of Pisces VI. We will be doing this May 3 - May 17. Anyone interested, please contact me. Meals will be provided by Katy's amazing cooking and we have a little extra space if a place to stay is needed by those on a budget. Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 18:15:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:15:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI Message-ID: <3kirs04tqykw24psc0hq2o59.1459894528416@email.android.com> Salina, Kansas (middle of the middle of no where, haha). Closest airports are MHK and ICT. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/05/2016 5:12 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI Hi Where do you live ? Philippe Robert Le 5 avr. 2016 12:30 PM, "via Personal_Submersibles" a ?crit?: Hey everyone, I wanted to extend a invitation to anyone wanting to help out anytime during the disassembly of Pisces VI. We will be doing this May 3 - May 17. Anyone interested, please contact me. Meals will be provided by Katy's amazing cooking and we have a little extra space if a place to stay is needed by those on a budget. Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 18:42:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:42:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery References: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Did you successfully make a deep sea AGM battery? ? ?I realize they are pressurized but can I drill and fill with oil then put a spring loaded pressure compensator ?into the drilled hole to create the internal pressure. ?So the battery would have a constant pressure inside at the surface then it increases as the battery dives to match water pressure. ?Will that work? ?I would like to move my AGM's ?to the outside of Elementary 3000.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 19:09:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:09:14 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery In-Reply-To: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To pressure compensate the interior of a battery like that, wouldn't you need to use battery electrolyte and not oil? Sean On April 5, 2016 4:42:57 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan,Did you successfully make a deep sea AGM battery? ? ?I realize >they are pressurized but can I drill and fill with oil then put a >spring loaded pressure compensator ?into the drilled hole to create the >internal pressure. ?So the battery would have a constant pressure >inside at the surface then it increases as the battery dives to match >water pressure. ?Will that work? ?I would like to move my AGM's ?to the >outside of Elementary 3000.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 19:23:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:23:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <848929801.2970694.1459898626733.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I don't know, but Alan is an expert in this area, and he has built one. ? I suspect I need to use lead acid batteries. ?I just happen to have AGM's on hand.Hank On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 5:09 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: To pressure compensate the interior of a battery like that, wouldn't you need to use battery electrolyte and not oil?Sean On April 5, 2016 4:42:57 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Did you successfully make a deep sea AGM battery? ? ?I realize they are pressurized but can I drill and fill with oil then put a spring loaded pressure compensator ?into the drilled hole to create the internal pressure. ?So the battery would have a constant pressure inside at the surface then it increases as the battery dives to match water pressure. ?Will that work? ?I would like to move my AGM's ?to the outside of Elementary 3000.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 21:00:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 01:00:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery In-Reply-To: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1073819275.2918267.1459896177801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1768714162.3813264.1459904425870.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,yes it worked well, but it was for inside an ambient sub, so it didn't see water.I took the top off the battery & replaced it with acrylic & took the cell valves off.http://www.psubs.org/projects/1235435392/ambientsub/I added 2 one way 3psi cracking pressure valves; one operating one way & the other the opposite way. The internals of the battery are supposed to be pressurizedat between 1 & 6psi to reabsorb gasses, so the 2 valves maintain that internal pressure.One valve lets air in at over 3psi when descending & the other lets the pressure out whileascending. I filled it with mineral oil, exposure to oxygen will degrade the battery.I did think of a better way that avoided the acrylic plate, but it would depend on thetype of AGM battery.Deep Sea Power & light have an AGM total ocean depth sea battery.I believe they take the valves off the battery cells & fill with mineral oil & place in a batterybox also filled with mineral oil. Over the top is clamped a clear flexible diaphragm that has a fill / drain valve in it. You need?to release any gasses that may build up, mainly whilecharging. If you go on their site you will get an idea.?http://www.deepsea.com/wp-content/uploads/SeaBattery_Specifications.pdfThere are specs & manuals.My battery is still holding a charge years later, so doesn't mind the mineral oil.Just make sure it's pure mineral oil.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 10:42 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery Alan,Did you successfully make a deep sea AGM battery? ? ?I realize they are pressurized but can I drill and fill with oil then put a spring loaded pressure compensator ?into the drilled hole to create the internal pressure. ?So the battery would have a constant pressure inside at the surface then it increases as the battery dives to match water pressure. ?Will that work? ?I would like to move my AGM's ?to the outside of Elementary 3000.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 5 21:11:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 01:11:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery In-Reply-To: <1768714162.3813264.1459904425870.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1768714162.3813264.1459904425870.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1331534244.2927486.1459905106141.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,That is great and clearly the battery has stood the test of time. ?Thanks'Hank On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 7:00 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it worked well, but it was for inside an ambient sub, so it didn't see water.I took the top off the battery & replaced it with acrylic & took the cell valves off.http://www.psubs.org/projects/1235435392/ambientsub/I added 2 one way 3psi cracking pressure valves; one operating one way & the other the opposite way. The internals of the battery are supposed to be pressurizedat between 1 & 6psi to reabsorb gasses, so the 2 valves maintain that internal pressure.One valve lets air in at over 3psi when descending & the other lets the pressure out whileascending. I filled it with mineral oil, exposure to oxygen will degrade the battery.I did think of a better way that avoided the acrylic plate, but it would depend on thetype of AGM battery.Deep Sea Power & light have an AGM total ocean depth sea battery.I believe they take the valves off the battery cells & fill with mineral oil & place in a batterybox also filled with mineral oil. Over the top is clamped a clear flexible diaphragm that has a fill / drain valve in it. You need?to release any gasses that may build up, mainly whilecharging. If you go on their site you will get an idea.?http://www.deepsea.com/wp-content/uploads/SeaBattery_Specifications.pdfThere are specs & manuals.My battery is still holding a charge years later, so doesn't mind the mineral oil.Just make sure it's pure mineral oil.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 10:42 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] agm battery Alan,Did you successfully make a deep sea AGM battery? ? ?I realize they are pressurized but can I drill and fill with oil then put a spring loaded pressure compensator ?into the drilled hole to create the internal pressure. ?So the battery would have a constant pressure inside at the surface then it increases as the battery dives to match water pressure. ?Will that work? ?I would like to move my AGM's ?to the outside of Elementary 3000.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 09:57:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:57:59 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill Message-ID: Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php kind regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 10:17:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:17:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223744274.146497.1459952223086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> James,I like the mill and drill combination machine because it takes a lot less space. ?I have never needed a larger mill with psub builds.Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 7:58 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anyone know anything about these?? Ive never heard of them.? This one has cropped up on a local website.? I am going to have a look after work...?http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php?kind regardsJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 10:27:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 10:27:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill In-Reply-To: <223744274.146497.1459952223086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <223744274.146497.1459952223086.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a mill/drill combination machine, but I wish I had a proper mill! The issue for me is that there is no substitute for mass in a mill or a lathe, and my mill/drill just doesn't have much of it. This makes it much more prone to vibration and not very stiff. I can get by, but because it's lightweight my little combination machine doesn't have anything like the precision and finish of the real thing. Shame that I too don't have enough space, or I'd get the biggest machine tools I could. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 10:17 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > I like the mill and drill combination machine because it takes a lot less > space. I have never needed a larger mill with psub builds. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 7:58 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has > cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... > > http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php > > kind regards > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 11:49:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:49:33 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, Don't know the name but the machine looks stable. Taper 40 is ok. Check if you can use the machine as vertical mill. Makes much more sense than horizontal! Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 6 april 2016 15:58 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php kind regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 12:27:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:27:03 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks all, I'm off to have a look at it now..... On 6 April 2016 at 16:49, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > > > > Don?t know the name but the machine looks stable. Taper 40 is ok. > > > > Check if you can use the machine as vertical mill. Makes much more sense > than horizontal! > > > > Emile > > > ------------------------------ > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* woensdag 6 april 2016 15:58 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill > > > > Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has > cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... > > > > http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php > > > > kind regards > > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 14:35:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1387550288.289701.1459967731801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is ready for a manned dive.Here is the videoHank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-04-06 at 12.33 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16808 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 15:37:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:37:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1108365922.320228.1459971439583.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balanceHank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 15:58:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 14:58:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Fw=3A_new_video?= In-Reply-To: <1387550288.289701.1459967731801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1387550288.289701.1459967731801.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20160406195808.10881.qmail@server268.com> Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video > Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 > > Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is > ready for a manned dive. > Here is the video > Hank > > On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 16:51:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:51:48 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1108365922.320228.1459971439583.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1108365922.320228.1459971439583.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5705768a.d60d620a.3773e.fffff734@mx.google.com> Congrats Hank. Haven?t you got one of it surfacing? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 7:37 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balance Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 17:20:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:20:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <5705768a.d60d620a.3773e.fffff734@mx.google.com> References: <5705768a.d60d620a.3773e.fffff734@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1300913104.378313.1459977607084.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,I am alone so I have to operate the hp system to surface it and hold the camera, that spells one?came swimming.Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:50 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv3355021515 #yiv3355021515 -- _filtered #yiv3355021515 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3355021515 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3355021515 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3355021515 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3355021515 {font-family:helveticaneue;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv3355021515 #yiv3355021515 p.yiv3355021515MsoNormal, #yiv3355021515 li.yiv3355021515MsoNormal, #yiv3355021515 div.yiv3355021515MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3355021515 a:link, #yiv3355021515 span.yiv3355021515MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3355021515 a:visited, #yiv3355021515 span.yiv3355021515MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3355021515 span.yiv3355021515EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3355021515 .yiv3355021515MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3355021515 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv3355021515 div.yiv3355021515WordSection1 {}#yiv3355021515 Congrats Hank.? Haven?t you got one of it surfacing?Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 7:37 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balanceHank ?On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 ?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 17:50:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:50:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video In-Reply-To: <20160406195808.10881.qmail@server268.com> References: <20160406195808.10881.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: <425176724.429941.1459979415077.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Scott,Hey you need to post some pics of your dream shop. ?I just looked at your pics and I see you have some work ahead of you. ?That ballast pump,,,,is it a hydraulic piston pump? ?looks like. ?Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters >? -------Original Message------- >? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video >? Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 >? >? Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is >? ready for a manned dive. >? Here is the video >? Hank >? >? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: >? >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU >? >? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 18:15:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:15:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Message-ID: Hank,I just posted the shop pics up to it's current state. The ballast pump is hydraulic.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 4:50 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Thanks' Scott,Hey you need to post some pics of your dream shop. ?I just looked at your pics and I see you have some work ahead of you. ?That ballast pump,,,,is it a hydraulic piston pump? ?looks like. ?Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters >? -------Original Message------- >? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video >? Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 >? >? Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is >? ready for a manned dive. >? Here is the video >? Hank >? >? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: >? >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU >? >? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 19:21:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 23:21:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <796718815.435635.1459984864956.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,Nice shop! ?your lucky, here in Canada we can't build that size without frost walls. ?We can only go 24 by 26 on a monolithic pad.Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:15 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I just posted the shop pics up to it's current state. The ballast pump is hydraulic.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 4:50 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Thanks' Scott,Hey you need to post some pics of your dream shop. ?I just looked at your pics and I see you have some work ahead of you. ?That ballast pump,,,,is it a hydraulic piston pump? ?looks like. ?Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters >? -------Original Message------- >? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video >? Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 >? >? Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is >? ready for a manned dive. >? Here is the video >? Hank >? >? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: >? >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU >? >? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 19:49:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 18:49:26 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Message-ID: It is deffenetly huge. A total of 85'x38' with 18' tall walls. Katy has informed me that when we ship Pisces out, that it will become her martial art school. HahaThanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 6:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Scott,Nice shop! ?your lucky, here in Canada we can't build that size without frost walls. ?We can only go 24 by 26 on a monolithic pad.Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:15 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I just posted the shop pics up to it's current state. The ballast pump is hydraulic.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 4:50 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Thanks' Scott,Hey you need to post some pics of your dream shop. ?I just looked at your pics and I see you have some work ahead of you. ?That ballast pump,,,,is it a hydraulic piston pump? ?looks like. ?Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters >? -------Original Message------- >? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video >? Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 >? >? Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is >? ready for a manned dive. >? Here is the video >? Hank >? >? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: >? >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU >? >? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 20:43:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 00:43:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1683782048.466480.1459989834318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Where are you shipping it to? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:49 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It is deffenetly huge. A total of 85'x38' with 18' tall walls. Katy has informed me that when we ship Pisces out, that it will become her martial art school. HahaThanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 6:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Scott,Nice shop! ?your lucky, here in Canada we can't build that size without frost walls. ?We can only go 24 by 26 on a monolithic pad.Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:15 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I just posted the shop pics up to it's current state. The ballast pump is hydraulic.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/06/2016 4:50 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video Thanks' Scott,Hey you need to post some pics of your dream shop. ?I just looked at your pics and I see you have some work ahead of you. ?That ballast pump,,,,is it a hydraulic piston pump? ?looks like. ?Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Hank!, Scott Waters >? -------Original Message------- >? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: new video >? Sent: Apr 06 '16 13:39 >? >? Today I finally got my sub balanced and weighted perfectly, it is >? ready for a manned dive. >? Here is the video >? Hank >? >? On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:34 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: >? >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPeo7bURcWU >? >? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 20:56:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:56:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1300913104.378313.1459977607084.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5705768a.d60d620a.3773e.fffff734@mx.google.com> <1300913104.378313.1459977607084.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d19068$4ef0af90$ecd20eb0$@telus.net> Looks great, Hank. I wish I was there to help you out. No ice? No problem. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:20 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Hugh, I am alone so I have to operate the hp system to surface it and hold the camera, that spells one came swimming. Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:50 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Congrats Hank. Haven?t you got one of it surfacing? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 7:37 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balance Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 6 21:30:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 01:30:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <000001d19068$4ef0af90$ecd20eb0$@telus.net> References: <000001d19068$4ef0af90$ecd20eb0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1076111217.493323.1459992630209.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Tim,I am getting organized to go to Slocan for the deep test, well 980 feet. ?That is only one third of where it can go but a good start. ?If you are in the area we could meet up. ??Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 6:56 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv0258334625 #yiv0258334625 -- _filtered #yiv0258334625 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv0258334625 #yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625MsoNormal, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625MsoNormal, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 a:link, #yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 a:visited, #yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msonormal, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msonormal, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msochpdefault, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msochpdefault, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlink {}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625emailstyle17 {}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msonormal1, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msonormal1, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625EmailStyle27 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0258334625 .yiv0258334625MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625WordSection1 {}#yiv0258334625 Looks great, Hank.? I wish I was there to help you out. No ice? No problem. ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:20 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Hugh,I am alone so I have to operate the hp system to surface it and hold the camera, that spells one?came swimming.Hank ?On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:50 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Congrats Hank.? Haven?t you got one of it surfacing?Hugh??From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 7:37 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw:?Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balanceHank?On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote:?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 05:07:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:07:46 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Emile. Not sure if you've had my messages off list. They seem to bounce back. Mill is very solid. Will need a forklift to move it. It is a vertical mill. But its taper 30. Is that ok? I want to use it for skimming the surface of battery pod seats with a fly cutter. They will be stainless. thanks James ? On 6 April 2016 at 17:27, James Frankland wrote: > thanks all, > > I'm off to have a look at it now..... > > On 6 April 2016 at 16:49, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, >> >> >> >> Don?t know the name but the machine looks stable. Taper 40 is ok. >> >> >> >> Check if you can use the machine as vertical mill. Makes much more sense >> than horizontal! >> >> >> >> Emile >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 6 april 2016 15:58 >> *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill >> >> >> >> Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has >> cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... >> >> >> >> http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php >> >> >> >> kind regards >> >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3471.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 120442 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 15:53:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:53:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Personal=5FSubmersibles_Digest=2C_Vol_3?= =?utf-8?q?4=2C_Issue_16?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5706bb3d.454d370a.e11d7.3cad@mx.google.com> Sent from Microsoft Surface From: via Personal_Submersibles Sent: ?Thursday?, ?April? ?7?, ?2016 ?5?:?07? ?AM To: via Personal_Submersibles Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: Mill (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 01:30:30 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <1076111217.493323.1459992630209.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks' Tim,I am getting organized to go to Slocan for the deep test, well 980 feet. ?That is only one third of where it can go but a good start. ?If you are in the area we could meet up. ??Hank On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 6:56 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv0258334625 #yiv0258334625 -- _filtered #yiv0258334625 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv0258334625 #yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625MsoNormal, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625MsoNormal, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 a:link, #yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 a:visited, #yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msonormal, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msonormal, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msochpdefault, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msochpdefault, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0i! n;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlink {}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625emailstyle17 {}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msonormal1, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msonormal1, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0258334625 p.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1, #yiv0258334625 li.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1, #yiv0258334625 div.yiv0258334625msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0258334625 span.yiv0258334625EmailStyle27 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0258334625 .yiv0258334625MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0258334625 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0258334625 d! iv.yiv0258334625WordSection1 {}#yiv0258334625 Looks great, Hank.? I wish I was there to help you out. No ice? No problem. ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:20 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Hugh,I am alone so I have to operate the hp system to surface it and hold the camera, that spells one?came swimming.Hank ?On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:50 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Congrats Hank.? Haven?t you got one of it surfacing?Hugh??From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 7:37 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw:?Here is the sub back on the surface with perfect weight and balanceHank?On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:35 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote:?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8?https://youtu.be/TWkAwyKavh8 ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:07:46 +0100 From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Emile. Not sure if you've had my messages off list. They seem to bounce back. Mill is very solid. Will need a forklift to move it. It is a vertical mill. But its taper 30. Is that ok? I want to use it for skimming the surface of battery pod seats with a fly cutter. They will be stainless. thanks James ? On 6 April 2016 at 17:27, James Frankland wrote: > thanks all, > > I'm off to have a look at it now..... > > On 6 April 2016 at 16:49, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, >> >> >> >> Don?t know the name but the machine looks stable. Taper 40 is ok. >> >> >> >> Check if you can use the machine as vertical mill. Makes much more sense >> than horizontal! >> >> >> >> Emile >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 6 april 2016 15:58 >> *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mill >> >> >> >> Anyone know anything about these? Ive never heard of them. This one has >> cropped up on a local website. I am going to have a look after work... >> >> >> >> http://www.tig.gg/l38272-Milling-Machine.php >> >> >> >> kind regards >> >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3471.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 120442 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 34, Issue 16 ***************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 15:55:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:55:45 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?OTS_bits_and_bobs?= Message-ID: <5706bc44.d84d370a.3f70f.3b0a@mx.google.com> I'd like to order a microphone and transducer for an OTS surface system. How do I go about getting a psubs discount? I don?t have a membership card or know the secret handshake. ? Thanks. Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 19:03:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:03:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump References: <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 19:18:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:18:37 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use these at work sometimes: http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0 Don't know what they cost though. Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. >?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then >flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 19:33:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1158350970.1062709.1460072034792.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I though of using a?hydraulic hand pump, but I figured the pump body would rust. ?Or do they make aluminum pumps maybe?Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:19 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 19:42:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:42:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <56563639.1051838.1460070195671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1297156562.1409716.1460072527073.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 21:16:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:16:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <1297156562.1409716.1460072527073.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1297156562.1409716.1460072527073.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1754105784.1098574.1460078171093.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 21:22:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. ?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 21:35:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:35:55 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <1754105784.1098574.1460078171093.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1297156562.1409716.1460072527073.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1754105784.1098574.1460078171093.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is something to start with, and you'll struggle to get a hand pump that will do the sort of pressures you want (ie. most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was mentioned, it's steel. Might still be a good starting point for freshwater use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. Here's a thought experiment that may be useful: If you have 1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) to outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required energy to pulling up a 1L bucket from a 300m deep well. That's quite a bit of manual effort just for 1L. If it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually I say :) Cheers, Steve On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, > I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters > then pump out some water at depth to go neutral. I can't wast air like > Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operate > various other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V & built for marine > conditions. > Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump > > I use these at work sometimes: > > http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0 > Don't know what they cost though. > Sean > > > On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. It will > work like a DW. I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small > plastic tank inside the sub. Any ideas? > Hank > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 21:50:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <1754105784.1098574.1460078171093.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1297156562.1409716.1460072527073.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1754105784.1098574.1460078171093.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <833574708.1403827.1460080258713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sounds a dangerous ploy Hank.If you had?50 liters of water to pump out, making you 50kg heavy (110 lb.)you might have trouble stopping.If you had two vertical thrusters with 50lb thrust each you would get the samespeed. At 1mph would take 34 minutes to get to your 3000ft max depth or 10 minutes at 3 mph.Maybe add another battery? It would be a lot of work hand pumping out the wateragainst 1500psi external water pressure at your max depth.Or maybe a drop weight full of rocks.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 22:31:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:31:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <833574708.1403827.1460080258713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1460082711.43846.YahooMailMobile@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I was thinking 5 litres max, it is a submarine not a formula one car. I could add a fake foil on top lol. Haha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 22:54:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 02:54:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <1460082711.43846.YahooMailMobile@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <833574708.1403827.1460080258713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1460082711.43846.YahooMailMobile@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <884151092.1426636.1460084065414.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,5 liters?would sink you at the?same speed as?11lb of thrust from your motors.My motors were drawing 4 amps off 36V to achieve 11lb thrust, so maybeit's not worth the space, money & pumping effort!James Cameron had his sub go down head first to get to the bottom quickerbut I guess Elementary 3000 goes the same speed in any direction:)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump | I was thinking 5 litres max, it is a submarine not a formula one car. I could add a fake foil on top lol. Haha | From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump Sent: Fri, Apr 8, 2016 1:50:58 AM | Sounds a dangerous ploy Hank.If you had?50 liters of water to pump out, making you 50kg heavy (110 lb.)you might have trouble stopping.If you had two vertical thrusters with 50lb thrust each you would get the samespeed. At 1mph would take 34 minutes to get to your 3000ft max depth or 10 minutes at 3 mph.Maybe add another battery? It would be a lot of work hand pumping out the wateragainst 1500psi external water pressure at your max depth.Or maybe a drop weight full of rocks.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. ?It will work like a DW. ?I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub. ?Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 23:09:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 20:09:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump Message-ID: <20160407200912.E76C6179@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 23:16:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 03:16:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <20160407200912.E76C6179@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160407200912.E76C6179@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1734678271.22272.1460085377959.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Good point, Nekton's dive 15 lb heavy but are bigger. ?Maybe 10L is better.Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 9:09 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? What about one of these ??http://www.catpumps.com/products/pumps-stainless-steel-316SS-duplex-corrosion-resistant.asp?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:35:55 +1000 Hi Hank,I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is?something to start with, and you'll struggle?to?get?a hand pump that will do?the sort of pressures you want (ie.?most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was mentioned, it's?steel.? Might still be a good starting point for?freshwater use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. Here's a thought experiment that may be useful:If you have?1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) to?outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required energy to?pulling up a?1L bucket from a 300m deep well.? That's?quite a bit of manual?effort?just for 1L.??If?it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually I say :) Cheers,Steve On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank.? It will work like a DW.? I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub.? Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 7 23:23:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 20:23:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] underwater archaeological expedition Message-ID: <20160407202335.E76C60F8@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 08:25:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:25:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <695567403.88833.1460118357968.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Good points, I think I will make my own pump. ?I can?make the pump faster than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement ?plunger but not so large that it is hard to operate. ?Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is?something to start with, and you'll struggle?to?get?a hand pump that will do?the sort of pressures you want (ie.?most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was mentioned, it's?steel.? Might still be a good starting point for?freshwater use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. Here's a thought experiment that may be useful:If you have?1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) to?outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required energy to?pulling up a?1L bucket from a 300m deep well.? That's?quite a bit of manual?effort?just for 1L.??If?it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually I say :) Cheers,Steve On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank.? It will work like a DW.? I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub.? Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 09:18:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:18:56 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <695567403.88833.1460118357968.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <695567403.88833.1460118357968.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello i have installed on pilot fish a sarum hydraulics hand pump rated for 40 bar and with 100cc stroke, and a short and long handle depending on depth. With materials and seals fit for sea water. Not very fast and Costs over 1000 euros but very sturdy and saves lot of space and air over classical hard ballast. I could add electrical pump later Regards Antoine On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > Good points, I think I will make my own pump. I can make the pump faster > than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement plunger but not so > large that it is hard to operate. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is something to start with, and > you'll struggle to get a hand pump that will do the sort of pressures you > want (ie. most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics > are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). > > But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was > mentioned, it's steel. Might still be a good starting point for freshwater > use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. > > Here's a thought experiment that may be useful: > If you have 1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) > to outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required > energy to pulling up a 1L bucket from a 300m deep well. That's quite a bit > of manual effort just for 1L. If it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually > I say :) > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Alan, > I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters > then pump out some water at depth to go neutral. I can't wast air like > Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > > Hank, > why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operate > various other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V & built for marine > conditions. > Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > *Sent:* Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump > > I use these at work sometimes: > > http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0 > Don't know what they cost though. > Sean > > > On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Hi All, > I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. It will > work like a DW. I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small > plastic tank inside the sub. Any ideas? > Hank > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 12:26:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:26:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors.I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor similar to this one.http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.htmlThey are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they charge up the banksof capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large inrush of current to the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller components.However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some current going to thecontroller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, but I am not sureof this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of the?main switch, but youwould have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits that have delays,so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the pre-charge resistor first.Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits?Regards Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 13:32:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2003483924.242814.1460136738979.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Antoine,Do you have a picture of the pump?Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 7:19 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello i have installed on pilot fish?a sarum hydraulics hand pump rated for 40 bar and with 100cc stroke, and a short and long handle depending on depth. With materials and seals fit for sea water. Not very fast and?Costs over 1000 euros but very sturdy and saves lot of space and air over classical hard ballast. I could add electrical pump laterRegards Antoine? On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Good points, I think I will make my own pump.? I can?make the pump faster than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement ?plunger but not so large that it is hard to operate. ?Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is?something to start with, and you'll struggle?to?get?a hand pump that will do?the sort of pressures you want (ie.?most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was mentioned, it's?steel.? Might still be a good starting point for?freshwater use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. Here's a thought experiment that may be useful:If you have?1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) to?outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required energy to?pulling up a?1L bucket from a 300m deep well.? That's?quite a bit of manual?effort?just for 1L.??If?it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually I say :) Cheers,Steve On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank.? It will work like a DW.? I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub.? Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 14:06:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 18:06:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?OTS_ordering?= Message-ID: <5707f3b9.91688c0a.c95bf.25ad@mx.google.com> How do I order parts from OTS and get the psubs member discount? Thanks, Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 14:39:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 20:39:06 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: <2003483924.242814.1460136738979.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2003483924.242814.1460136738979.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi hank It is on the pilot fish project facebook page Regards Antoine On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Antoine, > Do you have a picture of the pump? > Hank > > > On Friday, April 8, 2016 7:19 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hello i have installed on pilot fish a sarum hydraulics hand pump rated > for 40 bar and with 100cc stroke, and a short and long handle depending on > depth. With materials and seals fit for sea water. Not very fast and Costs > over 1000 euros but very sturdy and saves lot of space and air over > classical hard ballast. I could add electrical pump later > Regards Antoine > > On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Steve, > Good points, I think I will make my own pump. I can make the pump faster > than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement plunger but not so > large that it is hard to operate. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is something to start with, and > you'll struggle to get a hand pump that will do the sort of pressures you > want (ie. most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics > are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). > > But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was > mentioned, it's steel. Might still be a good starting point for freshwater > use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. > > Here's a thought experiment that may be useful: > If you have 1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) > to outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required > energy to pulling up a 1L bucket from a 300m deep well. That's quite a bit > of manual effort just for 1L. If it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually > I say :) > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters > then pump out some water at depth to go neutral. I can't wast air like > Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operate > various other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V & built for marine > conditions. > Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump > > I use these at work sometimes: > > http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0 > Don't know what they cost though. > Sean > > > On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. It will > work like a DW. I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small > plastic tank inside the sub. Any ideas? > Hank > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 15:45:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:45:35 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: <2003483924.242814.1460136738979.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There https://m.facebook.com/294329844027226/photos/pb.294329844027226.-2207520000.1460144143./640699192723621/?type=3&source=42 It is drawing from low pressure piping with a three way valve from either a water bladder inside the sub or a free hose going in the bilge On the outlet side of the pump a tee then the isolation valve then the pressure hull. The tee is also going to the bladder with another valve there to bring water in Regards Antoine On Friday, April 8, 2016, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > Hi hank > It is on the pilot fish project facebook page > Regards > Antoine > > On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Antoine, >> Do you have a picture of the pump? >> Hank >> >> >> On Friday, April 8, 2016 7:19 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hello i have installed on pilot fish a sarum hydraulics hand pump rated >> for 40 bar and with 100cc stroke, and a short and long handle depending on >> depth. With materials and seals fit for sea water. Not very fast and Costs >> over 1000 euros but very sturdy and saves lot of space and air over >> classical hard ballast. I could add electrical pump later >> Regards Antoine >> >> On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Steve, >> Good points, I think I will make my own pump. I can make the pump >> faster than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement plunger but >> not so large that it is hard to operate. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is something to start with, and >> you'll struggle to get a hand pump that will do the sort of pressures you >> want (ie. most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics >> are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). >> >> But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was >> mentioned, it's steel. Might still be a good starting point for freshwater >> use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. >> >> Here's a thought experiment that may be useful: >> If you have 1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) >> to outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required >> energy to pulling up a 1L bucket from a 300m deep well. That's quite a bit >> of manual effort just for 1L. If it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually >> I say :) >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters >> then pump out some water at depth to go neutral. I can't wast air like >> Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operate >> various other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V & built for >> marine conditions. >> Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump >> >> I use these at work sometimes: >> >> http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0 >> Don't know what they cost though. >> Sean >> >> >> On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank. It will >> work like a DW. I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small >> plastic tank inside the sub. Any ideas? >> Hank >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 16:39:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 20:39:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1775014943.341282.1460147974283.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Antoine,All I can say is?Brilliant! ?I like it!Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 1:45 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Therehttps://m.facebook.com/294329844027226/photos/pb.294329844027226.-2207520000.1460144143./640699192723621/?type=3&source=42 It is drawing from low pressure piping with a three way valve from either a water bladder inside the sub or a free hose going in the bilgeOn the outlet side of the pump a tee then the isolation valve then the pressure hull. The tee is also going to the bladder with another valve there to bring water inRegardsAntoine On Friday, April 8, 2016, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi hankIt is on the pilot fish project facebook page? RegardsAntoine On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Antoine,Do you have a picture of the pump?Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 7:19 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello i have installed on pilot fish?a sarum hydraulics hand pump rated for 40 bar and with 100cc stroke, and a short and long handle depending on depth. With materials and seals fit for sea water. Not very fast and?Costs over 1000 euros but very sturdy and saves lot of space and air over classical hard ballast. I could add electrical pump laterRegards Antoine? On Friday, April 8, 2016, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Good points, I think I will make my own pump.? I can?make the pump faster than a hydraulic pump by using a larger displacement ?plunger but not so large that it is hard to operate. ?Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I reckon a hydraulic bottle or lever jack is?something to start with, and you'll struggle?to?get?a hand pump that will do?the sort of pressures you want (ie.?most applications for air are too low pressure, for hydraulics are higher pressure, and not heaps in between). But then the capacity of the hydraulic hand pump will be tiny and as was mentioned, it's?steel.? Might still be a good starting point for?freshwater use regardless, or to reverse engineer and make a stainless one. Here's a thought experiment that may be useful:If you have?1L of water that you want to move from inside the sub (1atm) to?outside (31atm at 300m water depth), that's equivalent in required energy to?pulling up a?1L bucket from a 300m deep well.? That's?quite a bit of manual?effort?just for 1L.??If?it's 10L, well, screw doing that manually I say :) Cheers,Steve On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I need full depth pressure rating so I can sink fast without thrusters then pump out some water at depth to go?neutral. ? I can't wast air like Gamma because I have no onboard compressor. ??Hank On Thursday, April 7, 2016 5:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,why not use an electric pump used on boats & have valves to operatevarious other functions. They are reasonably small, 12V?& built for marine conditions.Can't recall what psi they go up to, but saw some rated 130 psi.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hand pump I use these at work sometimes:http://www.enerpac.com/en-us/industrial-tools/hydraulic-pumps-and-valves/hydraulic-manual-pumps-0Don't know what they cost though.Sean On April 7, 2016 5:03:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for a hand pump to remove water from my trim tank.? It will work like a DW.? I will empty the air out of the mbt and then flood a small plastic tank inside the sub.? Any ideas?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 18:23:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:23:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor In-Reply-To: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> OK figured out what I am doing.For this experimental stage I will just have a circuit breaker?on the battery + side of?the main switch& pre-charge resistor. I will trip this breaker when finished to take current off the resistor.When operational on the sub I will have a relay to a solenoid switch.When the relay is turned on, the pre-charge resister will see current & charge the capacitorsbut there will be a timer circuit with a delay of 1 second before power goes to the solenoid switch.Cheers Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 4:26 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors.I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor similar to this one.http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.htmlThey are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they charge up the banksof capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large inrush of current to the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller components.However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some current going to thecontroller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, but I am not sureof this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of the?main switch, but youwould have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits that have delays,so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the pre-charge resistor first.Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits?Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 18:50:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:50:53 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor In-Reply-To: <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Just putting it out there, it could actually take a while to charge a large capacitor bank through a 10k resistor - not sure if you've checked this but there are calculators on the web for that. Cheers, Steve On 9 Apr 2016 8:28 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > OK figured out what I am doing. > For this experimental stage I will just have a circuit breaker on the > battery + side of the main switch > & pre-charge resistor. I will trip this breaker when finished to take > current off the resistor. > When operational on the sub I will have a relay to a solenoid switch. > When the relay is turned on, the pre-charge resister will see current & > charge the capacitors > but there will be a timer circuit with a delay of 1 second before power > goes to the solenoid switch. > Cheers Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 9, 2016 4:26 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor > > Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors. > I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor > similar to this one. > > http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.html > They are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they > charge up the banks > of capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large > inrush of current to > the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller > components. > However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some > current going to the > controller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, > but I am not sure > of this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of > the main switch, but you > would have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits > that have delays, > so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the > pre-charge resistor first. > Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits? > Regards Alan > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 20:49:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 00:49:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor In-Reply-To: References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <433909643.2021457.1460162993887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve,I didn't know there was such a calculator.The resistor Kelly supplied was? 1K, the link I posted was misleading.I would need to contact Kelly to find out about the capacitors in my controller.I have seen figures elsewhere of anywhere up to 4 seconds delay.The 1k resistor will run my test battery (48V 40ahr) down in about 800 hrs. if I don't disconnect the battery or resistor; unless there is some electronics that I don't know about that monitors the state of charge of the capacitors & turns their power supply off & on.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Hi Alan, Just putting it out there, it could actually take a while to charge a large capacitor bank through a 10k resistor - not sure if you've checked this but there are calculators on the web for that.Cheers, SteveOn 9 Apr 2016 8:28 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: OK figured out what I am doing.For this experimental stage I will just have a circuit breaker?on the battery + side of?the main switch& pre-charge resistor. I will trip this breaker when finished to take current off the resistor.When operational on the sub I will have a relay to a solenoid switch.When the relay is turned on, the pre-charge resister will see current & charge the capacitorsbut there will be a timer circuit with a delay of 1 second before power goes to the solenoid switch.Cheers Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 4:26 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors.I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor similar to this one.http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.htmlThey are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they charge up the banksof capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large inrush of current to the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller components.However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some current going to thecontroller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, but I am not sureof this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of the?main switch, but youwould have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits that have delays,so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the pre-charge resistor first.Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits?Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 21:16:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:16:28 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor In-Reply-To: <433909643.2021457.1460162993887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <433909643.2021457.1460162993887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Yes, basically resistance * capacitance == a time constant, which is a common theme in analog electronics design (RC = tau). So it's all nicely linear, ie. to double the time you double the resistance. By my reading of it, the resistor won't actually flatten your battery - ie. when the capacitors are fully charged through the capacitor, there is no driving voltage so no current will flow through the resistor, thus it theoretically draws no power. But the capacitors will have a leakage rate that may draw a small current and as you pointed out, the LED on the controller may draw some current through to power the circuitry and indicator LED. Probably best practice to isolate the batteries close to the source when not using for a while - and so the problem would still stand! Cheers, Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > I didn't know there was such a calculator. > The resistor Kelly supplied was 1K, the link I posted was misleading. > I would need to contact Kelly to find out about the capacitors in my > controller. > I have seen figures elsewhere of anywhere up to 4 seconds delay. > The 1k resistor will run my test battery (48V 40ahr) down in about 800 > hrs. if I > don't disconnect the battery or resistor; unless there is some > electronics that I > don't know about that monitors the state of charge of the capacitors & > turns their > power supply off & on. > Cheers Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 9, 2016 10:50 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor > > Hi Alan, > Just putting it out there, it could actually take a while to charge a > large capacitor bank through a 10k resistor - not sure if you've checked > this but there are calculators on the web for that. > Cheers, > Steve > On 9 Apr 2016 8:28 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > OK figured out what I am doing. > For this experimental stage I will just have a circuit breaker on the > battery + side of the main switch > & pre-charge resistor. I will trip this breaker when finished to take > current off the resistor. > When operational on the sub I will have a relay to a solenoid switch. > When the relay is turned on, the pre-charge resister will see current & > charge the capacitors > but there will be a timer circuit with a delay of 1 second before power > goes to the solenoid switch. > Cheers Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 9, 2016 4:26 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor > > Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors. > I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor > similar to this one. > > http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.html > They are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they > charge up the banks > of capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large > inrush of current to > the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller > components. > However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some > current going to the > controller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, > but I am not sure > of this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of > the main switch, but you > would have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits > that have delays, > so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the > pre-charge resistor first. > Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits? > Regards Alan > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 21:34:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:34:38 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank and Sean, Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness of material. Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your depth rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away all the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring welded around the hole. Cheers, Steve PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had a hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole. Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though. This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Sean, > If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, > would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or could a guy > or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange machine to work > to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me that could be done > for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the > hatch. Or am I out to lunch? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 22:20:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:20:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Message-ID: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 22:21:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:21:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then got to wondering about that statement. When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside of the hull? If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the same volume as you removed? Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Hank and Sean, > Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean > might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think > I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a > pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing > around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. > > So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and > associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it > would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness > of material. > > Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your depth > rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as > reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of > the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not > be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. > > To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away all > the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and > hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring > welded around the hole. > > Cheers, > Steve > > PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had a hole > with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, > that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole. > Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though. This > is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Sean, >> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, >> would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or could a guy >> or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange machine to work >> to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me that could be done >> for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the >> hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 22:39:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:39:18 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, You're correct there - the reinforcing can be in the form of thickening the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that is welded on, rather than thickening the shell. Although it's not very practical for large holes. There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before it doesn't count. Actually, for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement to reinforce. I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than 90mm. Cheers, Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or > add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted > to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked > about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then > got to wondering about that statement. > When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round > stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" > hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into > consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside > of the hull? > If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" ID > schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the same > volume as you removed? > Rick > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi Hank and Sean, >> Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean >> might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think >> I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a >> pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing >> around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. >> >> So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and >> associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it >> would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness >> of material. >> >> Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your depth >> rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as >> reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of >> the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not >> be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. >> >> To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away all >> the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and >> hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring >> welded around the hole. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had a hole >> with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, >> that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole. >> Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though. This >> is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Sean, >>> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >>> thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or >>> could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange >>> machine to work to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me >>> that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the >>> same steel in the hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >>> Hank >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 23:02:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:02:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor In-Reply-To: References: <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2057261464.1759243.1460132785625.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <341352314.1920714.1460154217365.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <433909643.2021457.1460162993887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <347587867.2112141.1460170922060.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve,I'll wire it up with the resistor across the switch & see what amps the system is drawingonce the capacitors are charged.Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Hi Alan,Yes, basically resistance * capacitance == a time constant, which is a common theme in analog electronics design?(RC = tau).? So it's all nicely linear, ie. to double the?time you double the resistance. By my reading of it, the resistor won't actually flatten your battery - ie.?when the capacitors are fully charged through the capacitor, there is no driving voltage so no current will flow through the resistor, thus it theoretically?draws no power.? But the capacitors will have a leakage rate that may draw a small current and?as you pointed out, the?LED on the controller may?draw some current through to power the circuitry and indicator LED. Probably best practice to?isolate the batteries close to the source?when not using for a while - and?so the problem would still stand! Cheers,Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I didn't know there was such a calculator.The resistor Kelly supplied was? 1K, the link I posted was misleading.I would need to contact Kelly to find out about the capacitors in my controller.I have seen figures elsewhere of anywhere up to 4 seconds delay.The 1k resistor will run my test battery (48V 40ahr) down in about 800 hrs. if I don't disconnect the battery or resistor; unless there is some electronics that I don't know about that monitors the state of charge of the capacitors & turns their power supply off & on.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Hi Alan, Just putting it out there, it could actually take a while to charge a large capacitor bank through a 10k resistor - not sure if you've checked this but there are calculators on the web for that.Cheers, SteveOn 9 Apr 2016 8:28 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: OK figured out what I am doing.For this experimental stage I will just have a circuit breaker?on the battery + side of?the main switch& pre-charge resistor. I will trip this breaker when finished to take current off the resistor.When operational on the sub I will have a relay to a solenoid switch.When the relay is turned on, the pre-charge resister will see current & charge the capacitorsbut there will be a timer circuit with a delay of 1 second before power goes to the solenoid switch.Cheers Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 4:26 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pre-Charge Resistor Does anyone have any experience with pre-charge resistors.I am wiring up my Kelly controller & they provide a pre-charge resistor similar to this one.http://www.electricmotorsport.com/wirewound-pre-charge-resistor-5w-10k-ohms.htmlThey are put across the terminals on a main power switch so that they charge up the banksof capacitors that motor controllers have. Without them there is a large inrush of current to the capacitors that can cause arcing to switches & damage to controller components.However if you wire it across the power switch there is always some current going to thecontroller. It probably only drives the ON LED on the motor controller, but I am not sureof this. I can have another switch or circuit breaker up stream of the?main switch, but youwould have to turn them on in the right sequence. I have heard of circuits that have delays,so that when the power switch is turned on, power runs through the pre-charge resistor first.Are there marine switches with built in pre- charge circuits?Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 23:13:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:13:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1679803256.463643.1460171608677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve,I assumed just that, if the hatch was a perfect match to the sphere with a perfect fit it would not require a?reinforcement. ?I can say that Gamma has a very small reinforcement for the hatch. ?The hatch is 18 inches in dia ?with a 1 by 1 inch ring that acts as both the land and reinforcement. ?But the hatch land rests on a spherical surface. ? It seems to me that an opening in a cylinder requires a significant reinforcement but spheres seem to need less. ?Just an observation because I have no clue.Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 7:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank and Sean,Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean might be in the middle of other things?I thought I might jump in - I think I can help in general terms.? The rule off thumb is if you?make a hole in?a pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. So?if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and associated?depth rating, then?you would need to?reinforce the hole - and?it would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness of material. Alternatively,?if you don't reinforce, then?you?lose?some of your depth rating, because some of?the thickness is?locally credited?as reinforcement.? This means?an amount of?thickness?over the rest of the?shell away from the hole?is basically dead?weight, which may or may not be a problem?depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. To put it another way/thought experiment:?if you could machine away all the?unnecessary material after you've machined the?landing area and hole,?the result would look like a?thinner shell with?a?reinforcement ring welded around the hole. Cheers,Steve PS:?All that said, it seems theoretically possible that?if you had a?hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole.? Probably this?doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though.? This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat.? Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch.? Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 8 23:18:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:18:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1793860257.2097625.1460171881419.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> That was great?Brian,thank her, she did a good job. Maybe she could be our official journalist at the next conference.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 2:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Hi All,???????????????? My daughter did a video on my?submarine project (?that I've been working on forever).? I feel very grateful to her for being able to put it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important aspects of the endeavor.?? This was for her communications class at Boise State, Idaho .?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc&feature=youtu.be?Brian Cox?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 00:56:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 18:56:13 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless steel schedule 80, 1/2" ID nipple is rated for 3" long? Can it take 3,000 psi Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > You're correct there - the reinforcing can be in the form of > thickening the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that is welded on, rather > than thickening the shell. Although it's not very practical for large > holes. There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before > it doesn't count. > > Actually, for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement > to reinforce. I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian > Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't > have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than 90mm. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or >> add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted >> to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked >> about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then >> got to wondering about that statement. >> When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round >> stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" >> hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into >> consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside >> of the hull? >> If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" ID >> schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the same >> volume as you removed? >> Rick >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Hank and Sean, >>> Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean >>> might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think >>> I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a >>> pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing >>> around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. >>> >>> So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and >>> associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it >>> would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness >>> of material. >>> >>> Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your depth >>> rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as >>> reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of >>> the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not >>> be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. >>> >>> To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away all >>> the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and >>> hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring >>> welded around the hole. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had >>> a hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated >>> perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there >>> was a hole. Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode >>> though. This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Sean, >>>> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >>>> thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or >>>> could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange >>>> machine to work to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me >>>> that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the >>>> same steel in the hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 01:11:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:11:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Message-ID: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 02:07:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 02:07:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS ordering In-Reply-To: <5707f3b9.91688c0a.c95bf.25ad@mx.google.com> References: <5707f3b9.91688c0a.c95bf.25ad@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <57089C3B.90705@psubs.org> PSUBS cannot order directly from OTS. We use to get a small discount from one of their distributors but I don't think we've ordered anything from them in years and so I'd have to check to see what we could get at this point. Send me an email with specifics regarding what you want and I'll check with the distributor for pricing. Make sure you also send me the shipping address so they can calculate those costs as well. jon at psubs.org On 4/8/2016 2:06 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > How do I order parts from OTS and get the psubs member discount? > > Thanks, > > Brian > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 03:50:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:50:33 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, Yep, SCH80 1/2" pipe is good to about 500bar/7500PSI per my favourite pressure rating chart: http://prochem.cloudsites.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Prochem-Piping-Products-1-Pipe-and-Tube.pdf Hi Hank, I suspect the buckling failure mode and/or standards overriding practicalities (or just inability to achieve close enough to perfect fit) will mean that reinforcement is necessary - really interested to hear what Sean has to say on it. Cheers, Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless steel schedule 80, 1/2" ID > nipple is rated for 3" long? Can it take 3,000 psi > Rick > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi Rick, >> You're correct there - the reinforcing can be in the form of >> thickening the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that is welded on, rather >> than thickening the shell. Although it's not very practical for large >> holes. There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before >> it doesn't count. >> >> Actually, for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement >> to reinforce. I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian >> Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't >> have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than 90mm. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or >>> add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted >>> to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked >>> about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then >>> got to wondering about that statement. >>> When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round >>> stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" >>> hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into >>> consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside >>> of the hull? >>> If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" >>> ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the >>> same volume as you removed? >>> Rick >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Hank and Sean, >>>> Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean >>>> might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think >>>> I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a >>>> pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing >>>> around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. >>>> >>>> So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and >>>> associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it >>>> would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness >>>> of material. >>>> >>>> Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your depth >>>> rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as >>>> reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of >>>> the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not >>>> be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. >>>> >>>> To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away all >>>> the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and >>>> hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring >>>> welded around the hole. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had >>>> a hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated >>>> perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there >>>> was a hole. Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode >>>> though. This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Sean, >>>>> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >>>>> thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or >>>>> could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange >>>>> machine to work to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me >>>>> that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the >>>>> same steel in the hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 08:20:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Boy, she did a real nice job.Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 11:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yeah,? some good Psubs PR? !! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:18:01 +0000 (UTC) That was great?Brian,thank her, she did a good job. Maybe she could be our official journalist at the next conference.Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 2:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Hi All,???????????????? My daughter did a video on my?submarine project (?that I've been working on forever).? I feel very grateful to her for being able to put it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important aspects of the endeavor.?? This was for her communications class at Boise State, Idaho .?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc&feature=youtu.be?Brian Cox?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 11:30:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 10:30:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Submarine_Dream?= In-Reply-To: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <20160409153029.5417.qmail@server268.com> Very nice video! -Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: PSubs > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > Sent: Apr 08 '16 21:22 > > Hi All, > My daughter did a video on my submarine project ( that I've been > working on forever). I feel very grateful to her for being able to put > it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important > aspects of the endeavor. This was for her communications class at > Boise State, Idaho . > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc&feature=youtu.be > > Brian Cox > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 12:07:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:07:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01d19279$fcabf140$f603d3c0$@telus.net> Very nice, Brian. I hope that she received a great mark for the production. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 5:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Brian, Boy, she did a real nice job. Hank On Friday, April 8, 2016 11:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yeah, some good Psubs PR !! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:18:01 +0000 (UTC) That was great Brian, thank her, she did a good job. Maybe she could be our official journalist at the next conference. Alan _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: PSubs > Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 2:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Hi All, My daughter did a video on my submarine project ( that I've been working on forever). I feel very grateful to her for being able to put it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important aspects of the endeavor. This was for her communications class at Boise State, Idaho . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc &feature=youtu.be Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 14:45:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:45:58 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160408192028.E76DBA6A@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: Nice, thanks for sharing. /Lasse l?rdag 9 april 2016 skrev Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Hi All, > My daughter did a video on my submarine project ( that > I've been working on forever). I feel very grateful to her for being able > to put it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important > aspects of the endeavor. This was for her communications class at Boise > State, Idaho . > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc&feature=youtu.be > > Brian Cox > > > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 15:10:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:10:50 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Steve I am trying to keep any high pressure gas outside of the sub including O2 but cant find an O2 regulator yet that can be exposed to salt water unlike the scuba regulaters so I figured I'd have the reg attached to the sked 80 nipple just inside the sub to knock it down to LP and then to the flow meter. Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > Yep, SCH80 1/2" pipe is good to about 500bar/7500PSI per my favourite > pressure rating chart: > > http://prochem.cloudsites.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Prochem-Piping-Products-1-Pipe-and-Tube.pdf > > Hi Hank, > I suspect the buckling failure mode and/or standards overriding > practicalities (or just inability to achieve close enough to perfect > fit) will mean that reinforcement is necessary - really interested to hear > what Sean has to say on it. > > Cheers, > Steve > > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless steel schedule 80, 1/2" >> ID nipple is rated for 3" long? Can it take 3,000 psi >> Rick >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, >>> You're correct there - the reinforcing can be in the form of >>> thickening the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that is welded on, rather >>> than thickening the shell. Although it's not very practical for large >>> holes. There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before >>> it doesn't count. >>> >>> Actually, for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement >>> to reinforce. I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian >>> Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't >>> have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than 90mm. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or >>>> add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted >>>> to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked >>>> about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then >>>> got to wondering about that statement. >>>> When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round >>>> stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" >>>> hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into >>>> consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside >>>> of the hull? >>>> If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" >>>> ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the >>>> same volume as you removed? >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Hank and Sean, >>>>> Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean >>>>> might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I think >>>>> I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a hole in a >>>>> pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing >>>>> around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. >>>>> >>>>> So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and >>>>> associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - and it >>>>> would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness >>>>> of material. >>>>> >>>>> Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your >>>>> depth rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as >>>>> reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of >>>>> the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or may not >>>>> be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. >>>>> >>>>> To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away >>>>> all the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and >>>>> hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring >>>>> welded around the hole. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had >>>>> a hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated >>>>> perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there >>>>> was a hole. Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode >>>>> though. This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sean, >>>>>> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >>>>>> thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or >>>>>> could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange >>>>>> machine to work to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me >>>>>> that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the >>>>>> same steel in the hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 15:12:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:12:42 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brian, Whats her total length? Rick On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > Boy, she did a real nice job. > Hank > > > On Friday, April 8, 2016 11:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Yeah, some good Psubs PR !! > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:18:01 +0000 (UTC) > > That was great Brian, > thank her, she did a good job. Maybe she could be our official > journalist at the next conference. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* PSubs > *Sent:* Saturday, April 9, 2016 2:20 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > > Hi All, > My daughter did a video on my submarine project ( that > I've been working on forever). I feel very grateful to her for being able > to put it together, and she went the mile to try and cover the important > aspects of the endeavor. This was for her communications class at Boise > State, Idaho . > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjeuhM8UXc&feature=youtu.be > > Brian Cox > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 15:19:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:19:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Message-ID: <20160409121906.E76CEC5B@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 16:27:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:27:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring References: <1050205262.650787.1460233652405.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1050205262.650787.1460233652405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, Just use an O2 clean scuba regulator...they're good for 100% O2. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4/9/16, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, April 9, 2016, 3:10 PM Thanks SteveI am trying to keep any high pressure gas outside of the sub including O2 but cant find an O2 regulator yet that can be exposed to salt water unlike the scuba regulaters so I figured I'd have the reg attached to the sked 80 nipple just inside the sub to knock it down to LP and then to the flow meter.Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,Yep, SCH80 1/2" pipe is good to about 500bar/7500PSI per my favourite pressure rating chart:http://prochem.cloudsites.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Prochem-Piping-Products-1-Pipe-and-Tube.pdf Hi Hank,I suspect the?buckling failure mode?and/or?standards overriding practicalities (or just inability to achieve close enough to perfect fit)?will mean that reinforcement is?necessary?- really interested to hear what Sean has to say on it. Cheers,Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless steel schedule 80, ?1/2" ID nipple is rated for 3" long? Can it take 3,000 psiRick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,You're correct there - the reinforcing can be?in the form of thickening?the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that?is welded on, rather than thickening the shell.??Although it's not very practical for large holes.? There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before it doesn't count. Actually,?for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement to?reinforce.? I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than?90mm. Cheers,Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then got to wondering about that statement.When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside of the hull?If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the same volume as you removed??Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank and Sean,Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean might be in the middle of other things?I thought I might jump in - I think I can help in general terms.? The rule off thumb is if you?make a hole in?a pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. So?if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and associated?depth rating, then?you would need to?reinforce the hole - and?it would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness of material. Alternatively,?if you don't reinforce, then?you?lose?some of your depth rating, because some of?the thickness is?locally credited?as reinforcement.? This means?an amount of?thickness?over the rest of the?shell away from the hole?is basically dead?weight, which may or may not be a problem?depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. To put it another way/thought experiment:?if you could machine away all the?unnecessary material after you've machined the?landing area and hole,?the result would look like a?thinner shell with?a?reinforcement ring welded around the hole. Cheers,Steve PS:?All that said, it seems theoretically possible that?if you had a?hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole.? Probably this?doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though.? This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat.? Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch.? Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 16:54:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:54:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 reg References: <946443107.15910.1460235245363.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <946443107.15910.1460235245363.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,Gamma and my new sub have HP O2 external with HP O2 coming through the hull to a paediatric ?regulator. ?No need for a extra regulator.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 17:28:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 21:28:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1893428960.18764.1460237324852.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,if you go with the scuba 1st stage regulator for O2, check with your dive store as to what brands of regulators they can clean. My store recommended only a couple of models. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring Thanks SteveI am trying to keep any high pressure gas outside of the sub including O2 but cant find an O2 regulator yet that can be exposed to salt water unlike the scuba regulaters so I figured I'd have the reg attached to the sked 80 nipple just inside the sub to knock it down to LP and then to the flow meter.Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,Yep, SCH80 1/2" pipe is good to about 500bar/7500PSI per my favourite pressure rating chart:http://prochem.cloudsites.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Prochem-Piping-Products-1-Pipe-and-Tube.pdf Hi Hank,I suspect the?buckling failure mode?and/or?standards overriding practicalities (or just inability to achieve close enough to perfect fit)?will mean that reinforcement is?necessary?- really interested to hear what Sean has to say on it. Cheers,Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless steel schedule 80, ?1/2" ID nipple is rated for 3" long? Can it take 3,000 psiRick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,You're correct there - the reinforcing can be?in the form of thickening?the small piece of pipe ("nozzle") that?is welded on, rather than thickening the shell.??Although it's not very practical for large holes.? There are also limits on how far away the reinforcing can be before it doesn't count. Actually,?for small holes, there probably isn't a requirement to?reinforce.? I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in the Australian Standard for pressure vessels (which is very similar to ASME), you don't have to reinforce a hole unless it's bigger than?90mm. Cheers,Steve On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or add what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted to add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then got to wondering about that statement.When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and outside of the hull?If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the same volume as you removed??Rick On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank and Sean,Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean might be in the middle of other things?I thought I might jump in - I think I can help in general terms.? The rule off thumb is if you?make a hole in?a pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. So?if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) and associated?depth rating, then?you would need to?reinforce the hole - and?it would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that thickness of material. Alternatively,?if you don't reinforce, then?you?lose?some of your depth rating, because some of?the thickness is?locally credited?as reinforcement.? This means?an amount of?thickness?over the rest of the?shell away from the hole?is basically dead?weight, which may or may not be a problem?depending on whether this gets lowered or is free-floating. To put it another way/thought experiment:?if you could machine away all the?unnecessary material after you've machined the?landing area and hole,?the result would look like a?thinner shell with?a?reinforcement ring welded around the hole. Cheers,Steve PS:?All that said, it seems theoretically possible that?if you had a?hole with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated perfectly, that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a hole.? Probably this?doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though.? This is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat.? Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch.? Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 18:02:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:02:32 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: <1050205262.650787.1460233652405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1050205262.650787.1460233652405.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1050205262.650787.1460233652405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys. I have to make a very embarrassing confession,,,,, Alan jogged my feeble memory. I did buy an O2 cleaned first stage scuba regulator for just that purpose about 3 years ago and it is sitting in a box in my shop. Guess that's what happens when you stop working on your sub for too long.?. I am hoping that won't happen again since I just retired! Rick On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > > Just use an O2 clean scuba regulator...they're good for 100% O2. > > Al Secor > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 4/9/16, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Saturday, April 9, 2016, 3:10 PM > > Thanks > SteveI am trying to keep any high pressure gas outside > of the sub including O2 but cant find an O2 regulator yet > that can be exposed to salt water unlike the scuba > regulaters so I figured I'd have the reg attached to the > sked 80 nipple just inside the sub to knock it down to LP > and then to the flow meter.Rick > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 > PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Hi Rick,Yep, SCH80 1/2" pipe > is good to about 500bar/7500PSI per my favourite pressure > rating chart: > http://prochem.cloudsites.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Prochem-Piping-Products-1-Pipe-and-Tube.pdf > Hi Hank,I suspect > the buckling failure mode and/or standards overriding > practicalities (or just inability to achieve close enough to > perfect fit) will mean that reinforcement is necessary - > really interested to hear what Sean has to say on > it. > Cheers,Steve > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:56 > PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Does anyone know how much pressure a stainless > steel schedule 80, 1/2" ID nipple is rated for > 3" long? Can it take 3,000 > psiRick > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:39 > PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Hi Rick,You're correct there - > the reinforcing can be in the form of thickening the small > piece of pipe ("nozzle") that is welded on, > rather than thickening the shell. Although it's not > very practical for large holes. There are also limits on > how far away the reinforcing can be before it doesn't > count. > Actually, for > small holes, there probably isn't a requirement > to reinforce. I'm not so familiar with ASME, but in > the Australian Standard for pressure vessels (which is very > similar to ASME), you don't have to reinforce a hole > unless it's bigger than 90mm. > Cheers,Steve > On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at > 12:21 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > while were on the subject, I need some > clarification on the "replace or add what you took out > of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted to > add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, > and asked about cutting extra holes in the hull and he said > the same thing but then got to wondering about that > statement.When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a > piece of solid round stainless steel with a 1/2" hole > in it for gas/wires, you still have a 1/2" hole in the > hull so that theory can only work if you take into > consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the > inside and outside of the hull?If that is the > case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a > 1/2" ID schedule 40 but you extend it inside and > outside until you equal the same volume as you > removed? Rick > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 > PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Hi Hank and Sean,Given Hank is > probably halfway through building this already and Sean > might be in the middle of other things I thought I might > jump in - I think I can help in general terms. The rule > off thumb is if you make a hole in a pressure vessel, > you're supposed to put this material back as reinforcing > around the hole to keep the same pressure > rating. > So if you > want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness > (wow!!!) and associated depth rating, then you would need > to reinforce the hole - and it would need to be a pretty > serious reinforcement to replace that thickness of > material. > Alternatively, if you don't > reinforce, then you lose some of your depth rating, > because some of the thickness is locally credited as > reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over > the rest of the shell away from the hole is basically > dead weight, which may or may not be a problem depending > on whether this gets lowered or is > free-floating. > To put > it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine > away all the unnecessary material after you've machined > the landing area and hole, the result would look like > a thinner shell with a reinforcement ring welded around > the hole. > Cheers,Steve > PS: All that said, it seems > theoretically possible that if you had a hole with a > spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated > perfectly, that with everything in compression it > shouldn't matter there was a hole. Probably > this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode > though. This is getting a bit out of my depth (if > you'll pardon the pun!). > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at > 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > Hi > Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id > CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be > necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or could a > guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their > flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. > It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch > because the load would be supported by the same steel in the > hatch. Or am I out to lunch? Hank > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 19:39:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:39:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160408221150.E76B617A@m0087791.ppops.net> <817003718.528649.1460204412620.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <570992AE.6010204@psubs.org> Nice job on the documentary...very nice. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 19:58:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:58:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? In-Reply-To: <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> References: <20160107093459.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e31ee82479.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <568FCDC1.60903@psubs.org> <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> Message-ID: <5709973F.30600@psubs.org> Steve McQueen, Scott Waters, Al Secor, send me a private message please so I can collect your email addresses. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 20:02:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:02:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? In-Reply-To: <5709973F.30600@psubs.org> References: <20160107093459.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.e31ee82479.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> <568FCDC1.60903@psubs.org> <5701B7D9.5040000@psubs.org> <5701B98B.3060206@psubs.org> <5709973F.30600@psubs.org> Message-ID: <570997FE.6050608@psubs.org> Send to jon at psubs.org...I keep forgetting we filter the email address from these postings which is why I need you to send me mail privately so I can collect yours. Jon On 4/9/2016 7:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Steve McQueen, Scott Waters, Al Secor, send me a private message > please so I can collect your email addresses. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 20:06:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 19:06:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? Message-ID: Jon,Not sure if I have your e-mail address. Mine is swaters at piscessub.comThanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/09/2016 6:58 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2016 Convention? Steve McQueen, Scott Waters, Al Secor, send me a private message please so I can collect your email addresses. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 9 22:28:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:28:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Message-ID: <20160409192820.E77EC84F@m0086238.ppops.net> Thanks Jon, Will pass the word to Claire ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:39:26 -0400 Nice job on the documentary...very nice. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 10 09:50:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 08:50:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <20160409192820.E77EC84F@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160409192820.E77EC84F@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: <3BBC2348-718E-493B-8064-6B32D14445D5@snyderemail.com> Awesome awesome video! > On Apr 9, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Jon, Will pass the word to Claire ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:39:26 -0400 > > > Nice job on the documentary...very nice. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 10 09:51:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 08:51:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream In-Reply-To: <20160409192820.E77EC84F@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160409192820.E77EC84F@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: ... Except for the part where you have to kill all your companions to learn about submarines.... > On Apr 9, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote : > > Thanks Jon, Will pass the word to Claire ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:39:26 -0400 > > > Nice job on the documentary...very nice. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 10 10:18:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 07:18:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Message-ID: <20160410071807.E76C247D@m0087796.ppops.net> You'll have to choose between them and me !! Take him up, and secure for sea ! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 08:51:21 -0500 ... Except for the part where you have to kill all your companions to learn about submarines.... > On Apr 9, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote : > > Thanks Jon, Will pass the word to Claire ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine Dream > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:39:26 -0400 > > > Nice job on the documentary...very nice. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 10:28:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 10:28:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> Message-ID: <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> After studying the ABS Ergonomics Guide regarding alarms the only thing I had to change was blinking of the visual alarms upon activation and changing to a steady light upon acknowledgement. The SCM has multiple alarms however and the ABS guide is silent regarding whether the blinking of multiple alarms should be in resonance (all blinking together at the same time) or randomly based upon when the alarm was set. The random method certainly gets your attention when multiple alarms go off but I think the resonance method might allow better processing of which alarm to tackle first in the case of multiple alarms. Any thoughts. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 11:10:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 09:10:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> Message-ID: <78f4c520-1b58-4429-ba0a-a757142203e6@email.android.com> It does say that multiple related failures (alarms associated with a single subsystem failure) should be indicated by a single alarm, rather than relying on the operator to deduce a system failure from multiple simultaneous alarms. I don't think synchronisation of the flashes matters at all, but if the alarms are unrelated, I would be inclined to leave them offset versus synchronising them (other than the audible signal if modulated), because I would tend to subconsciously associate synchronised indicators with a common source of failure. If software controlled and indicated, it's a no brainer to do it either way. With physically illuminated switches, flashing indicators are accomplished by switching lamps with electromechanical or solid state relays, which is probably why ABS left it open. If it were up to me, I would synchronise related alarms and randomize unrelated ones. Sean On April 12, 2016 8:28:50 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >After studying the ABS Ergonomics Guide regarding alarms the only thing > >I had to change was blinking of the visual alarms upon activation and >changing to a steady light upon acknowledgement. The SCM has multiple >alarms however and the ABS guide is silent regarding whether the >blinking of multiple alarms should be in resonance (all blinking >together at the same time) or randomly based upon when the alarm was >set. The random method certainly gets your attention when multiple >alarms go off but I think the resonance method might allow better >processing of which alarm to tackle first in the case of multiple >alarms. Any thoughts. > >Jon > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 11:12:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 09:12:23 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <78f4c520-1b58-4429-ba0a-a757142203e6@email.android.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> <78f4c520-1b58-4429-ba0a-a757142203e6@email.android.com> Message-ID: When I say randomize, I didn't mean that in the real sense, but rather to offset the rising edge of each flash by the flash rate divided by the number of unrelated alarm groups. Sean On April 12, 2016 9:10:01 AM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson" wrote: >It does say that multiple related failures (alarms associated with a >single subsystem failure) should be indicated by a single alarm, rather >than relying on the operator to deduce a system failure from multiple >simultaneous alarms. I don't think synchronisation of the flashes >matters at all, but if the alarms are unrelated, I would be inclined to >leave them offset versus synchronising them (other than the audible >signal if modulated), because I would tend to subconsciously associate >synchronised indicators with a common source of failure. If software >controlled and indicated, it's a no brainer to do it either way. With >physically illuminated switches, flashing indicators are accomplished >by switching lamps with electromechanical or solid state relays, which >is probably why ABS left it open. If it were up to me, I would >synchronise related alarms and randomize unrelated ones. > >Sean > > >On April 12, 2016 8:28:50 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >>After studying the ABS Ergonomics Guide regarding alarms the only >thing >> >>I had to change was blinking of the visual alarms upon activation and >>changing to a steady light upon acknowledgement. The SCM has multiple > >>alarms however and the ABS guide is silent regarding whether the >>blinking of multiple alarms should be in resonance (all blinking >>together at the same time) or randomly based upon when the alarm was >>set. The random method certainly gets your attention when multiple >>alarms go off but I think the resonance method might allow better >>processing of which alarm to tackle first in the case of multiple >>alarms. Any thoughts. >> >>Jon >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 11:51:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:51:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <78f4c520-1b58-4429-ba0a-a757142203e6@email.android.com> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> <78f4c520-1b58-4429-ba0a-a757142203e6@email.android.com> Message-ID: <570D1994.4090305@psubs.org> Yes, I read that section also but none of these alarms are related. I like your logic so I'm going to leave them randomized. I also like that choice because I don't have to go in and change any code. :) Jon On 4/12/2016 11:10 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > It does say that multiple related failures (alarms associated with a > single subsystem failure) should be indicated by a single alarm, > rather than relying on the operator to deduce a system failure from > multiple simultaneous alarms. I don't think synchronisation of the > flashes matters at all, but if the alarms are unrelated, I would be > inclined to leave them offset versus synchronising them (other than > the audible signal if modulated), because I would tend to > subconsciously associate synchronised indicators with a common source > of failure. If software controlled and indicated, it's a no brainer to > do it either way. With physically illuminated switches, flashing > indicators are accomplished by switching lamps with electromechanical > or solid state relays, which is probably why ABS left it open. If it > were up to me, I would synchronise related alarms and randomize > unrelated ones. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 13:44:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:44:09 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SCMv2 - Submarine Control Manager In-Reply-To: <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> References: <56FE699F.20501@psubs.org> <56ff01b2.da20620a.2e1f4.3f86@mx.google.com> <57014A52.70209@psubs.org> <570D0622.4010003@psubs.org> Message-ID: I have 3 Minn-kota 101,s for my k-350 and I have decided to oil compensate them but this is one of the phases that I would rather not take on if I can help it. Is there anyone out there that has done this with success on theirs that would be willing to do mine? if so, where are you located and would you have an idea of what you would want? Got to get this boat done before I get too old to climb in it! Rick On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 4:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > After studying the ABS Ergonomics Guide regarding alarms the only thing I > had to change was blinking of the visual alarms upon activation and > changing to a steady light upon acknowledgement. The SCM has multiple > alarms however and the ABS guide is silent regarding whether the blinking > of multiple alarms should be in resonance (all blinking together at the > same time) or randomly based upon when the alarm was set. The random > method certainly gets your attention when multiple alarms go off but I > think the resonance method might allow better processing of which alarm to > tackle first in the case of multiple alarms. Any thoughts. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 16:32:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:32:42 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dive Message-ID: Hello psubbers I -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 17:27:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 23:27:58 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives Message-ID: Hello Psubbers, Pilot Fish sub has now made its first dives, What a feeling to live this for real after having imagined it for years! seeing the water fully covering the dome is quite a dramatic view. at last i feel like a real psubber, after having been on this group feeling like a junior kid for ten years... thanks to you all, this project would not be anywhere near it is without your precious advice! some pics and movies can be found at https://www.facebook.com/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project-294329844027226/ The tests went well overall. we were quite anxious as there were many systems to be tested, some with quite original features. Launching the sub with the trailer and an extension rope was the first unknown. Hopefully Emile came from Amsterdam to help us out. Techno diving lent us some diver phones, and the local dive club helped out which is good for a first dive. First day we stayed in the harbour checking buoyancy. We were a bit heavier and nose heavy than anticipated, so we adjusted for this by removing some solid ballast. We had also a bit of air exiting our emergency regulators so we figured we should add an isolation valve upstream that regulator to prevent such events increasing the pressure of the cabin. once MBT emptied we tried bringing in water into our bladder to be neutral, but I soon realized I had forgotten to remove a little plastic cap protecting the threaded seawater intake outside when prepping the sub. It would be a hard reach to remove even by a diver from outside as it was located inside the tail fairing between oxy bottles. All the tv crews were also there waiting to film our first dive..., we had like 4 go pros and 2 microphones inside the sub recording, and diver cam man, a towing boat in a small harbour trying to keep us away from other boats, some people watching, and for whatever reason I wanted to control most of the tasks inside the sub, leaving michael my copilot only pedaling. So quite a lot of multitasking for a first dive! I would advise to do first dives in a quiet place first! After thinking hard about whether the cap was threaded or not, we decided we should try pumping against it with our manual bilge pump. It did not work initially as our low pressure circuit was full with air so the pumping was not very efficient. So we poured water from our drinking bottle into it and pumped again and this time when reversing the circuit, water came in so we had managed to kick the cap out and we finally started diving. By the way, this was the very first time we tested our bilge pump, and it visibly worked... Having done already several cycles of ballast inflation to adjust solid ballast we did not have enough air to exit the harbour in confidence (although we had plumbed our ballasts to allow divers to inflate our ballasts with direct system connection, which turned out quite useful). so we stayed in, only diving to 1m as the bottom 2m of the lake harbour were covered by very long sea weed on which we were sort of floating. The next day we went out for a tow then dives in 3 to 5 m water depth. We could then check most systems, which worked as anticipated. the task sharing with the pedaller became obvious: pedaller pedals, and takes care of life support and MBT upon instruction from the pilot, the pilot does the rest. We would deflate the ballasts, which turned out quite stable despite the saddle shape. Then we would bring in seawater to fully cover the dome to get neutral buoyancy, then pedal downwards, using the trim tray on rollers beneath the pilot seat. The first surfacing with Emile as a pilot was quite impressive by inflating the ballasts. Nobody filmed it but it felt like we raced upwards with steep inclination. We did another dive with Michael on the same day. We could check oxy consumption, really sober, 0.75L/mn at rest for us two, and 2L/mn at cruising pedaling level. The temperature and humidity did not shoot up as we feared when pedalling to the sweating remained quite efficient and confortable, despite all the body heat. Quite happy too with the scrubber as we had 0.15-0.2 % CO2 only. Pedaling resistance lower than feared, we ll see next time if we try a more agressive pitch. Our blade design may be a bit basic but the speed looked around the 3km/hr expected. The friction in the drive train and prop shaft seal is impressively low. we can testify that the water lubricated bearing for the shaft outside the hull works well when in the water... During that second dive a funny thing happened: we beached on the seabed without noticing, as the seabed was moving up, and did not have the altitude sounder installed yet and the ground felt further below due to optical distortion in the dome. Then we used the bow thruster which sucked sand inside the bow fairing (I had not cut the definitive thruster intake ports in the fairing) which kept us landed. We kept pedalling without understanding why we stopped moving, thinking we may have got caught in something or the prop blades may have loosened?. That was when the surface boat told us they had an engine pb so we came up gently with ballasts and the diver told us we had landed and was wondering why we kept pedalling!! We will do another series to check the speed accurately in deeper water depth area. we will also do longer dives to check the scrubber capacity, and if all goes well spend the night underwater for a 30hours long dive. regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 18:19:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:19:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160412151947.E7682842@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 12 18:25:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:25:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1908961721.1990379.1460499933405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Wow, fantastic Antoine, congratulations.Love those detailed reports with the good & the bad.Emile was the right person to have on the project, he thinks outside the box.The speed you are getting is faster than I thought.Did you consider crossing to Cherbourg (like the Titanic) & getting the submarine museum involvedor are the currents too strong up there?Cheers AlanP.S.In case anyone misses it, this TV news item from your facebook page is very good.Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche en p?dalant dans un sous-marin | | | | | | | | | | | Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche e... Traverser La Manche ? 2 km/h ? l'aide de leurs mollets, c'est le projet fou de deux polytechniciens. D?s... | | | | From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:27 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives Hello Psubbers,?Pilot Fish sub has now made its first dives,?What a feeling to live this for real after having imagined it for years! seeing the water fully covering the dome is quite a dramatic view.??at last i feel like a real psubber, after having been on this group feeling like a junior kid for ten years... thanks to you all, this project would not be anywhere near it is without your precious advice! some pics and movies can be found athttps://www.facebook.com/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project-294329844027226/ The tests went well overall. we were quite anxious as there were many systems to be tested, some with quite original features. Launching the sub with the trailer and an extension rope was the first unknown. Hopefully Emile came from Amsterdam to help us out. Techno diving lent us some diver phones, and the local dive club helped out which is good for a first dive.?First day we stayed in the harbour checking buoyancy. We were a bit heavier and nose heavy than anticipated, so we adjusted for this by removing some solid ballast. We had also a bit of air exiting our emergency regulators so we figured we should add an isolation valve upstream that regulator to prevent such events increasing the pressure of the cabin.once MBT emptied we tried bringing in water into our bladder to be neutral, but I soon realized I had forgotten to remove a little plastic cap protecting the threaded seawater intake outside when prepping the sub. It would be a hard reach to remove even by a diver from outside as it was located inside the tail fairing between oxy bottles. ?All the tv crews were also there waiting to film our first dive..., we had like 4 go pros and 2 microphones inside the sub recording, and diver cam man, a towing boat in a small harbour trying to keep us away from other boats, some people watching, and for whatever reason I wanted to control most of the tasks inside the sub, leaving michael my copilot only pedaling. So quite a lot of multitasking for a first dive! I would advise to do first dives in a quiet place first!After thinking hard about whether the cap was threaded or not, we decided we should try pumping against it with our manual bilge pump. It did not work initially as our low pressure circuit was full with air so the pumping was not very efficient. So we poured water from our drinking bottle into it and pumped again and this time when reversing the circuit, water came in so we had managed to kick the cap out and we finally started diving. By the way, this was the very first time we tested our bilge pump, and it visibly worked...?Having done already several cycles of ballast inflation to adjust solid ballast we did not have enough air to exit the harbour in confidence (although we had plumbed our ballasts to allow divers to inflate our ballasts with direct system connection, which turned out quite useful). so we stayed in, only diving to 1m as the bottom 2m of the lake harbour were covered by very long sea weed on which we were sort of floating. The next day we went out for a tow then dives in 3 to 5 m water depth. We could then check most systems, which worked as anticipated. the task sharing with the pedaller became obvious: pedaller pedals, and takes care of life support and MBT upon instruction from the pilot, the pilot does the rest. We would deflate the ballasts, which turned out quite stable despite the saddle shape. Then we would bring in seawater to fully cover the dome to get neutral buoyancy, then pedal downwards, using the trim tray on rollers beneath the pilot seat. The first surfacing with Emile as a pilot was quite impressive by inflating the ballasts. Nobody filmed it but it felt like we raced upwards with steep inclination.We did another dive with Michael on the same day. We could check oxy consumption, really sober, 0.75L/mn at rest for us two, and 2L/mn at cruising pedaling level. The temperature and humidity did not shoot up as we feared when pedalling to the sweating remained quite efficient and confortable, despite all the body heat. Quite happy too with the scrubber as we had 0.15-0.2 % CO2 only.??Pedaling resistance lower than feared, we ll see next time if we try a more agressive pitch. Our blade design may be a bit basic but the speed looked around the 3km/hr expected. The friction in the drive train and prop shaft seal is impressively low. we can testify that the water lubricated bearing for the shaft outside the hull works well when in the water...During that second dive ?a funny thing happened: we beached on the seabed without noticing, as the seabed was moving up, and did not have the altitude sounder installed yet and the ground felt further below due to optical distortion in the dome. Then we used the bow thruster ?which sucked sand inside the bow fairing (I had not cut the definitive thruster intake ports in the fairing) which kept us landed. We kept pedalling without understanding why we stopped moving, thinking we may have got caught in something or the prop blades may have loosened?. That was when the surface boat told us they had an engine pb so we came up gently with ballasts and the diver told us we had landed and was wondering why we kept pedalling!! We will do another series to check the speed accurately in deeper water depth area. we will also do longer dives to check the scrubber capacity, and if all goes well spend the night underwater for a 30hours long dive.? regards,Antoine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 13 01:22:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:22:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002301d19544$711dd3f0$53597bd0$@telus.net> Congratulations, Antoine. Very impressive! Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 2:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives Hello Psubbers, Pilot Fish sub has now made its first dives, What a feeling to live this for real after having imagined it for years! seeing the water fully covering the dome is quite a dramatic view. at last i feel like a real psubber, after having been on this group feeling like a junior kid for ten years... thanks to you all, this project would not be anywhere near it is without your precious advice! some pics and movies can be found at https://www.facebook.com/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project-294329844027226/ The tests went well overall. we were quite anxious as there were many systems to be tested, some with quite original features. Launching the sub with the trailer and an extension rope was the first unknown. Hopefully Emile came from Amsterdam to help us out. Techno diving lent us some diver phones, and the local dive club helped out which is good for a first dive. First day we stayed in the harbour checking buoyancy. We were a bit heavier and nose heavy than anticipated, so we adjusted for this by removing some solid ballast. We had also a bit of air exiting our emergency regulators so we figured we should add an isolation valve upstream that regulator to prevent such events increasing the pressure of the cabin. once MBT emptied we tried bringing in water into our bladder to be neutral, but I soon realized I had forgotten to remove a little plastic cap protecting the threaded seawater intake outside when prepping the sub. It would be a hard reach to remove even by a diver from outside as it was located inside the tail fairing between oxy bottles. All the tv crews were also there waiting to film our first dive..., we had like 4 go pros and 2 microphones inside the sub recording, and diver cam man, a towing boat in a small harbour trying to keep us away from other boats, some people watching, and for whatever reason I wanted to control most of the tasks inside the sub, leaving michael my copilot only pedaling. So quite a lot of multitasking for a first dive! I would advise to do first dives in a quiet place first! After thinking hard about whether the cap was threaded or not, we decided we should try pumping against it with our manual bilge pump. It did not work initially as our low pressure circuit was full with air so the pumping was not very efficient. So we poured water from our drinking bottle into it and pumped again and this time when reversing the circuit, water came in so we had managed to kick the cap out and we finally started diving. By the way, this was the very first time we tested our bilge pump, and it visibly worked... Having done already several cycles of ballast inflation to adjust solid ballast we did not have enough air to exit the harbour in confidence (although we had plumbed our ballasts to allow divers to inflate our ballasts with direct system connection, which turned out quite useful). so we stayed in, only diving to 1m as the bottom 2m of the lake harbour were covered by very long sea weed on which we were sort of floating. The next day we went out for a tow then dives in 3 to 5 m water depth. We could then check most systems, which worked as anticipated. the task sharing with the pedaller became obvious: pedaller pedals, and takes care of life support and MBT upon instruction from the pilot, the pilot does the rest. We would deflate the ballasts, which turned out quite stable despite the saddle shape. Then we would bring in seawater to fully cover the dome to get neutral buoyancy, then pedal downwards, using the trim tray on rollers beneath the pilot seat. The first surfacing with Emile as a pilot was quite impressive by inflating the ballasts. Nobody filmed it but it felt like we raced upwards with steep inclination. We did another dive with Michael on the same day. We could check oxy consumption, really sober, 0.75L/mn at rest for us two, and 2L/mn at cruising pedaling level. The temperature and humidity did not shoot up as we feared when pedalling to the sweating remained quite efficient and confortable, despite all the body heat. Quite happy too with the scrubber as we had 0.15-0.2 % CO2 only. Pedaling resistance lower than feared, we ll see next time if we try a more agressive pitch. Our blade design may be a bit basic but the speed looked around the 3km/hr expected. The friction in the drive train and prop shaft seal is impressively low. we can testify that the water lubricated bearing for the shaft outside the hull works well when in the water... During that second dive a funny thing happened: we beached on the seabed without noticing, as the seabed was moving up, and did not have the altitude sounder installed yet and the ground felt further below due to optical distortion in the dome. Then we used the bow thruster which sucked sand inside the bow fairing (I had not cut the definitive thruster intake ports in the fairing) which kept us landed. We kept pedalling without understanding why we stopped moving, thinking we may have got caught in something or the prop blades may have loosened?. That was when the surface boat told us they had an engine pb so we came up gently with ballasts and the diver told us we had landed and was wondering why we kept pedalling!! We will do another series to check the speed accurately in deeper water depth area. we will also do longer dives to check the scrubber capacity, and if all goes well spend the night underwater for a 30hours long dive. regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 13 06:03:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 12:03:27 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives In-Reply-To: <1908961721.1990379.1460499933405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1908961721.1990379.1460499933405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: thanks Alan, currents are too strong to arrive in Cherbourg, however I would love to have the sub shown at the museum there after the trip. There were ok for a temporary exhibit with little conference but I probably need to ask them again. regards Antoine On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow, fantastic Antoine, congratulations. > Love those detailed reports with the good & the bad. > Emile was the right person to have on the project, he thinks outside the > box. > The speed you are getting is faster than I thought. > Did you consider crossing to Cherbourg (like the Titanic) & getting the > submarine museum involved > or are the currents too strong up there? > Cheers Alan > P.S. > In case anyone misses it, this TV news item from your facebook page is > very good. > Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche > en p?dalant dans un sous-marin > > > Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche > e... > Traverser La Manche ? 2 km/h ? l'aide de leurs mollets, c'est le projet > fou de deux polytechniciens. D?s... > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:27 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives > > Hello Psubbers, > Pilot Fish sub has now made its first dives, > What a feeling to live this for real after having imagined it for years! > seeing the water fully covering the dome is quite a dramatic view. > > at last i feel like a real psubber, after having been on this group > feeling like a junior kid for ten years... thanks to you all, this project > would not be anywhere near it is without your precious advice! > > some pics and movies can be found at > > https://www.facebook.com/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project-294329844027226/ > > The tests went well overall. we were quite anxious as there were many > systems to be tested, some with quite original features. Launching the sub > with the trailer and an extension rope was the first unknown. Hopefully > Emile came from Amsterdam to help us out. Techno diving lent us some diver > phones, and the local dive club helped out which is good for a first dive. > > First day we stayed in the harbour checking buoyancy. We were a bit > heavier and nose heavy than anticipated, so we adjusted for this by > removing some solid ballast. We had also a bit of air exiting our emergency > regulators so we figured we should add an isolation valve upstream that > regulator to prevent such events increasing the pressure of the cabin. > once MBT emptied we tried bringing in water into our bladder to be > neutral, but I soon realized I had forgotten to remove a little plastic cap > protecting the threaded seawater intake outside when prepping the sub. It > would be a hard reach to remove even by a diver from outside as it was > located inside the tail fairing between oxy bottles. > All the tv crews were also there waiting to film our first dive..., we had > like 4 go pros and 2 microphones inside the sub recording, and diver cam > man, a towing boat in a small harbour trying to keep us away from other > boats, some people watching, and for whatever reason I wanted to control > most of the tasks inside the sub, leaving michael my copilot only pedaling. > So quite a lot of multitasking for a first dive! I would advise to do first > dives in a quiet place first! > After thinking hard about whether the cap was threaded or not, we decided > we should try pumping against it with our manual bilge pump. It did not > work initially as our low pressure circuit was full with air so the pumping > was not very efficient. So we poured water from our drinking bottle into it > and pumped again and this time when reversing the circuit, water came in so > we had managed to kick the cap out and we finally started diving. By the > way, this was the very first time we tested our bilge pump, and it visibly > worked... > Having done already several cycles of ballast inflation to adjust solid > ballast we did not have enough air to exit the harbour in confidence > (although we had plumbed our ballasts to allow divers to inflate our > ballasts with direct system connection, which turned out quite useful). so > we stayed in, only diving to 1m as the bottom 2m of the lake harbour were > covered by very long sea weed on which we were sort of floating. > > The next day we went out for a tow then dives in 3 to 5 m water depth. We > could then check most systems, which worked as anticipated. the task > sharing with the pedaller became obvious: pedaller pedals, and takes care > of life support and MBT upon instruction from the pilot, the pilot does the > rest. We would deflate the ballasts, which turned out quite stable despite > the saddle shape. Then we would bring in seawater to fully cover the dome > to get neutral buoyancy, then pedal downwards, using the trim tray on > rollers beneath the pilot seat. The first surfacing with Emile as a pilot > was quite impressive by inflating the ballasts. Nobody filmed it but it > felt like we raced upwards with steep inclination. > We did another dive with Michael on the same day. We could check oxy > consumption, really sober, 0.75L/mn at rest for us two, and 2L/mn at > cruising pedaling level. The temperature and humidity did not shoot up as > we feared when pedalling to the sweating remained quite efficient and > confortable, despite all the body heat. Quite happy too with the scrubber > as we had 0.15-0.2 % CO2 only. > Pedaling resistance lower than feared, we ll see next time if we try a > more agressive pitch. Our blade design may be a bit basic but the speed > looked around the 3km/hr expected. The friction in the drive train and prop > shaft seal is impressively low. we can testify that the water lubricated > bearing for the shaft outside the hull works well when in the water... > During that second dive a funny thing happened: we beached on the seabed > without noticing, as the seabed was moving up, and did not have the > altitude sounder installed yet and the ground felt further below due to > optical distortion in the dome. Then we used the bow thruster which sucked > sand inside the bow fairing (I had not cut the definitive thruster intake > ports in the fairing) which kept us landed. We kept pedalling without > understanding why we stopped moving, thinking we may have got caught in > something or the prop blades may have loosened?. That was when the surface > boat told us they had an engine pb so we came up gently with ballasts and > the diver told us we had landed and was wondering why we kept pedalling!! > > We will do another series to check the speed accurately in deeper water > depth area. we will also do longer dives to check the scrubber capacity, > and if all goes well spend the night underwater for a 30hours long dive. > > regards, > Antoine > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 13 19:33:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 23:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement References: <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Can someone tell me what "axiel displacement" means in reference to a conical window. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 03:17:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160412151947.E7682842@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160412151947.E7682842@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: > > https://vimeo.com/162570037 > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 10:17:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:17:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160414071742.E76F73F6@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 11:20:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:20:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <6843c8.51a1a84.44410f3c@aol.com> Brian, Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control. When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced. He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift." Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift. The net effect is automatic roll dampening. Jim T. In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi All, Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: https://vimeo.com/162570037 Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mip://0bb99168/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 13:28:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:28:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <6843c8.51a1a84.44410f3c@aol.com> References: <6843c8.51a1a84.44410f3c@aol.com> Message-ID: <15415d0ef38-3602-a3c8@webprd-a23.mail.aol.com> Jim, Snoopy can do roll control because she has sufficient metacentric height to start with, and is improving on what she already has while surfaced. For the uninitiated, MH is the distance between a center of gravity and a center of buoyancy. Due to the stock fore and aft tanks, Snoopy (like all K-boats) tends to be roly-poly. But even without the side tanks, they won't roll over (or at least won't stay rolled over) because there is a good solid MH integral to the design. Brian, I suspect, has the other problem. His MH is too short, and that simply won't work. Also, it's good to keep in mind that the metacentric height changes (shortens) as and after you submerge. There are a whole bunch of fun calculations that have to be done to prove to ABS (for instance) that the boat will retain sufficient stability in whatever trim she is in, surfaced, diving, and submerged. There just ain't no substitute for MH in that game. As to Brian's problem I'd say that if he does have sufficient payload capacity to add lead down low, then he could easily lower the sub's CG without altering its CB, which would improve the MH. Is that enough acronyms for now? In any case, if he actually does have the payload for another 500# of lead (or whatever), I'd be prone to strapping that under the hull and try again before going to work with the edge grinder, just to see if it works. Vance -----Original Message----- From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Apr 14, 2016 11:21 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Brian, Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control. When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced. He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift." Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift. The net effect is automatic roll dampening. Jim T. In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: https://vimeo.com/162570037 Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 14:25:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:25:10 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement In-Reply-To: <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <292cd273-8a80-41c1-833f-079d99053a3b@email.android.com> With reference to the conical axis, so axial displacement would be the window pushing into the seat. This is why an overhang allowance is necessary. Sean On April 13, 2016 5:33:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Can someone tell me what "axiel displacement" means in reference to a >conical window. ?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 14:52:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:52:21 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160414071742.E76F73F6@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160414071742.E76F73F6@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, so if you add weight you need to add floatation to counter it. When I first saw the video I thought perhaps fill the bottom of the cylindrical hull section with lead. Maybe pour the lead to the contour of the bottom & add syntactic foam around the conning tower. With the height of the conning tower that would improve your centre of buoyancy. Tritons top pilot told me he liked to dive as quick as possible due to the instability issues that Vance described with the CG & CB changing. you may find that you aren't so top heavy once the conning tower is under. Perhaps you could attach a rope around the conning tower next attempt & limit any roll just in case. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/04/2016, at 2:17 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 > > Another interesting video Brian. > I see what you mean about the stability. > Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable > she was once that big conning tower was under the water. > What's the next step? > I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling > up on any one else's comments. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: > > https://vimeo.com/162570037 > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 14:54:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:54:17 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement In-Reply-To: <292cd273-8a80-41c1-833f-079d99053a3b@email.android.com> References: <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <112704640.80055.1460590395963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <292cd273-8a80-41c1-833f-079d99053a3b@email.android.com> Message-ID: jon Please contact me offline as I am not able to post without attaching to someone else,s post and it is not working to click on your email address. rick at landnseawelding.com Thanks Rick On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > With reference to the conical axis, so axial displacement would be the > window pushing into the seat. This is why an overhang allowance is > necessary. > > Sean > > > On April 13, 2016 5:33:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Can someone tell me what "axiel displacement" means in reference to a >> conical window. >> Hank >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 17:01:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:01:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 17:08:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:08:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement In-Reply-To: <292cd273-8a80-41c1-833f-079d99053a3b@email.android.com> References: <292cd273-8a80-41c1-833f-079d99053a3b@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1880194343.595893.1460668116000.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,?Thank you for the clarification. ?I thought that was it, reading the "Hand book of acrylics" ?is like reading a different language. ?I have got most of it now. ?I have an ideal fit meaning there is no difference in the seat angle to the window angle. ?My problem is though, no overhang, ? my window ends at the end of the window frame. ?That is bad! ?I can remove the window and machine it thinner by .125 to give me the correct overhang. ?I am not sure if it is worth it because my port is grossly over sized. ?I will have to study the charts to see how much my window will compress into the seat before I decide what to do.Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:25 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: With reference to the conical axis, so axial displacement would be the window pushing into the seat. This is why an overhang allowance is necessary.Sean On April 13, 2016 5:33:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone tell me what "axiel displacement" means in reference to a conical window. ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 17:13:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:13:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: <505380577.595346.1460668414101.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Vance is dead right! don't cut into your MBT yet. ?I can't tell you how many times I made a mess trying ?to solve a problem. ?I resisted make big changes with Elementary 3000 only to discover I had built the sub perfectly and just had it over weight. ?Weird things happen. ? Just strap the weights on first, you will learn a lot from that. ?Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 3:02 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've got plenty of room in the bottom of my concrete ballast structure to put lead, which is actually slightly lower than the bottom of the sphere.? Just looking at the video I need enough to sink the top half of the sphere.? That works out to be around 2000 lbs or so of lead.? Volume of sphere is 65 cu ft.? Then I'll have to make sure it sinks evenly longitudily , so I may have of spread the weight out a bit or add to the nose.? ?? Just scored about 1000 lbs of lead at the boatyard !??? A wrecked sailboat keel? !???? We'll make it work !?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:20:29 -0400 Brian,Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control.? When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced.? He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift."? Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift.? The net effect is automatic roll dampening.Jim T.??In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Alan,?? Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom.? Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable? she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling? up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ??????????????? Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: ? https://vimeo.com/162570037 ? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 17:59:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:59:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k250 of Mark Ragan Message-ID: Hi, I want to know if Mark Ragan as sold is k-250 sub ? Tanks Philippe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 18:15:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:15:01 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: <5410B627-3132-463D-A09C-F4904939016C@yahoo.com> Have fun cutting up the keel Brian. Look forward to the progress. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/04/2016, at 9:01 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I've got plenty of room in the bottom of my concrete ballast structure to put lead, which is actually slightly lower than the bottom of the sphere. Just looking at the video I need enough to sink the top half of the sphere. That works out to be around 2000 lbs or so of lead. Volume of sphere is 65 cu ft. Then I'll have to make sure it sinks evenly longitudily , so I may have of spread the weight out a bit or add to the nose. > > Just scored about 1000 lbs of lead at the boatyard ! A wrecked sailboat keel ! We'll make it work ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:20:29 -0400 > > Brian, > Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control. When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced. He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift." Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift. The net effect is automatic roll dampening. > Jim T. > > > In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 > > Another interesting video Brian. > I see what you mean about the stability. > Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable > she was once that big conning tower was under the water. > What's the next step? > I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling > up on any one else's comments. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: > > https://vimeo.com/162570037 > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 19:15:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:15:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160414161505.E7721FBD@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 19:21:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:21:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement Message-ID: <20160414162104.E7721F02@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 19:48:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:48:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement In-Reply-To: <20160414162104.E7721F02@m0087798.ppops.net> References: <20160414162104.E7721F02@m0087798.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1585067449.665677.1460677724809.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Okay that makes sense then. ?I tend to over react some times and end up making extra work for nothing. ;-)My window uses grease for the high pressure seal, there is no gasket, but your right that?wood work.Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 5:21 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? Do you have an inside gasket on that window ??? If so you could get an thicker gasket to get your overhang. ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] axial displacement Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:08:35 +0000 (UTC) Sean,?Thank you for the clarification. ?I thought that was it, reading the "Hand book of acrylics" ?is like reading a different language. ?I have got most of it now. ?I have an ideal fit meaning there is no difference in the seat angle to the window angle. ?My problem is though, no overhang, ? my window ends at the end of the window frame. ?That is bad! ?I can remove the window and machine it thinner by .125 to give me the correct overhang. ?I am not sure if it is worth it because my port is grossly over sized. ?I will have to study the charts to see how much my window will compress into the seat before I decide what to do.Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:25 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: With reference to the conical axis, so axial displacement would be the window pushing into the seat. This is why an overhang allowance is necessary.Sean On April 13, 2016 5:33:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone tell me what "axiel displacement" means in reference to a conical window. ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 14 20:20:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 00:20:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?k250_of_Mark_Ragan?= Message-ID: <571033fc.8af68c0a.89ff1.ffff855e@mx.google.com> Yes. Sold. Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 00:06:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:06:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160414210616.E76E9430@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 00:19:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:19:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <505380577.595346.1460668414101.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160414140155.E76E76C1@m0087796.ppops.net> <505380577.595346.1460668414101.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d196ce$0528e2d0$0f7aa870$@telus.net> Hey Brian, I was very impressed with how stable in roll Gamma became after Hank replaced the front ballast tank with the two forward saddle tanks. Exactly how Jim describes Snoopy. I hoisted myself out of the water over one of Gamma's saddle tanks while Hank was sitting on the CT, and the sub had no real roll tendency. Perhaps a pair of saddle tanks forward and another pair aft would solve it. You should expect that transitioning through the air-water interface while submerging and surfacing is when roll (and pitch) stability is the greatest challenge. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:14 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Brian, Vance is dead right! don't cut into your MBT yet. I can't tell you how many times I made a mess trying to solve a problem. I resisted make big changes with Elementary 3000 only to discover I had built the sub perfectly and just had it over weight. Weird things happen. Just strap the weights on first, you will learn a lot from that. Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 3:02 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I've got plenty of room in the bottom of my concrete ballast structure to put lead, which is actually slightly lower than the bottom of the sphere. Just looking at the video I need enough to sink the top half of the sphere. That works out to be around 2000 lbs or so of lead. Volume of sphere is 65 cu ft. Then I'll have to make sure it sinks evenly longitudily , so I may have of spread the weight out a bit or add to the nose. Just scored about 1000 lbs of lead at the boatyard ! A wrecked sailboat keel ! We'll make it work ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:20:29 -0400 Brian, Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control. When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced. He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift." Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift. The net effect is automatic roll dampening. Jim T. In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi All, Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: https://vimeo.com/162570037 Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 01:18:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:18:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160414221814.E76F96EA@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 03:39:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:39:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160414210616.E76E9430@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160414210616.E76E9430@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <186918380.997023.1460705965937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,no didn't know you could cut it with a skill saw. Watch it doesn'tget hot & seize around the blade.Cheers Alan? From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Alan,???????????? I like the idea of the ropes to control in case of rolling during a test.?? BTW, got all that lead today, did you know that you can cut lead with a Skill saw ??? I just tried it today, works really good.? I think I might be able to position all that lead in my ballast area with out having to melt it .?? I can secure it with some sort of bolted bar arrangement.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:52:21 +1200 Brian,so if you add weight you need to add floatation to counter it.When I first saw the video I thought perhaps fill the bottom ofthe cylindrical hull section with lead. Maybe pour the lead to the contourof the bottom & add syntactic foam around the conning tower.With the height of the conning tower that would improve yourcentre of buoyancy. Tritons top pilot told me he liked to dive as quickas possible due to the instability issues that Vance described withthe CG & CB changing. you may find that you aren't so top heavyonce the conning tower is under. Perhaps you could attach a ropearound the conning tower next attempt & limit any roll just in case.Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 15/04/2016, at 2:17 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,?? Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom.? Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian.I see what you mean about the stability.Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable?she was once that big conning tower was under the water.What's the next step?I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling?up on any one else's comments.Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????????????? Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine:?https://vimeo.com/162570037?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 08:42:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:42:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <6d0d7c.5cc8e9e.44423ba2@aol.com> Brian, You'll also generate lead sawdust and some degree of fumes. Remember to take all the precautions with that. JT In a message dated 4/15/2016 2:42:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Brian, no didn't know you could cut it with a skill saw. Watch it doesn't get hot & seize around the blade. Cheers Alan ____________________________________ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Alan, I like the idea of the ropes to control in case of rolling during a test. BTW, got all that lead today, did you know that you can cut lead with a Skill saw ? I just tried it today, works really good. I think I might be able to position all that lead in my ballast area with out having to melt it . I can secure it with some sort of bolted bar arrangement. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:52:21 +1200 Brian, so if you add weight you need to add floatation to counter it. When I first saw the video I thought perhaps fill the bottom of the cylindrical hull section with lead. Maybe pour the lead to the contour of the bottom & add syntactic foam around the conning tower. With the height of the conning tower that would improve your centre of buoyancy. Tritons top pilot told me he liked to dive as quick as possible due to the instability issues that Vance described with the CG & CB changing. you may find that you aren't so top heavy once the conning tower is under. Perhaps you could attach a rope around the conning tower next attempt & limit any roll just in case. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/04/2016, at 2:17 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. Brian --- _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Hi All, Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: https://vimeo.com/162570037 Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ () http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ () http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 09:54:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:54:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Message-ID: Hey guys, I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a fun moment with my friends. https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive Cheers, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 10:14:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:14:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160415071434.E76E21E3@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 10:25:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:25:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Completely_off_topic?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160415142548.15873.qmail@server268.com> What a cool video Alec! -Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > Sent: Apr 15 '16 08:56 > > Hey guys, > > I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines > here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer > in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse > to share a fun moment with my friends. > > https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive > > Cheers, > > Alec From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 10:58:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:58:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Message-ID: Very relevant, Alec: construction techniques, testing of angular momentum, vertical ingress, and support crew coordination; all applicable to subs. Loved it! Jim In a message dated 4/15/2016 9:26:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: What a cool video Alec! -Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > Sent: Apr 15 '16 08:56 > > Hey guys, > > I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines > here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer > in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse > to share a fun moment with my friends. > > https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive > > Cheers, > > Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 11:24:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:24:13 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Always interesting to see other things members are up to. Great video. Although I still don't really understand this funny American "going round in circles" racing.......we usually put some bends and wot not in.... ;) On 15 April 2016 at 15:58, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Very relevant, Alec: construction techniques, testing of angular momentum, > vertical ingress, and support crew coordination; all applicable to subs. > Loved it! > Jim > > In a message dated 4/15/2016 9:26:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > What a cool video Alec! > -Scott Waters > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > > Sent: Apr 15 '16 08:56 > > > > Hey guys, > > > > I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines > > here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer > > in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse > > to share a fun moment with my friends. > > > > https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive > > > > Cheers, > > > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 12:56:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:56:22 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It could be done for the hatch, but the interface would have to be exactly normal to the sphere surface, otherwise reinforcement around the opening becomes necessary, in which case you have to derate the shell to match the effective reinforcement provided by the existing shell thickness, and are then carrying extraneous material elsewhere. This would always be the case for any window seat or other opening which you actually remove steel from. If you plan a hatch like this, all the same rules apply as for hull shells, with regard to full penetration welds and reinforcement around openings for e.g. dogging shafts or viewports. Also, the hatch material, if following exactly the same shape, must be at least as strong as the shell. I ran into this problem on my hull design, where specified limits for plate steel strength are given by ABS, but my hatch was going to be a casting of equivalent material. According to the rules, castings have to be 20% thicker than the numbers would indicate in the absence of exhaustive destructive testing to demonstrate equivalence to plate material. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go slightly thicker regardless, so as to ensure a continuous load path from the hull shell without any geometric discontinuities. In any case, what you don't want to do is machine features into your contiguous shell which introduce stress concentrations (screw holes, stepped seats etc.) without either adding reinforcement, or derating the hull shell accordingly. Sean On April 7, 2016 7:22:26 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. >?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their >?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems >logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would >be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? >?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 13:11:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:11:22 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would add that your tolerances on such an interface are quite critical. In addition to the conical angle (where I would probably stick to the PVHO standard of +0.25?/-0? on insert, +0?/-0.25? on seat), roundness, concentricity and thickness minimum (inner and outer radius) need to be considered. Sean On April 15, 2016 10:56:22 AM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >It could be done for the hatch, but the interface would have to be >exactly normal to the sphere surface, otherwise reinforcement around >the opening becomes necessary, in which case you have to derate the >shell to match the effective reinforcement provided by the existing >shell thickness, and are then carrying extraneous material elsewhere. >This would always be the case for any window seat or other opening >which you actually remove steel from. If you plan a hatch like this, >all the same rules apply as for hull shells, with regard to full >penetration welds and reinforcement around openings for e.g. dogging >shafts or viewports. Also, the hatch material, if following exactly the >same shape, must be at least as strong as the shell. > >I ran into this problem on my hull design, where specified limits for >plate steel strength are given by ABS, but my hatch was going to be a >casting of equivalent material. According to the rules, castings have >to be 20% thicker than the numbers would indicate in the absence of >exhaustive destructive testing to demonstrate equivalence to plate >material. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go slightly thicker regardless, >so as to ensure a continuous load path from the hull shell without any >geometric discontinuities. > >In any case, what you don't want to do is machine features into your >contiguous shell which introduce stress concentrations (screw holes, >stepped seats etc.) without either adding reinforcement, or derating >the hull shell accordingly. > >Sean > > > >On April 7, 2016 7:22:26 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >>thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. >>?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their >>?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems >>logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would >>be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? >>?Hank >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 12:57:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:57:58 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160415071434.E76E21E3@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20160415071434.E76E21E3@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: What blade are you using? Large tooth count? Sean On April 15, 2016 8:14:34 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan, > >It creates chips, doesn't really heat up, doesn't create fumes. Just >need to collect the chips afterwards. > > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video >Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:39:25 +0000 (UTC) > >Brian, > >no didn't know you could cut it with a skill saw. Watch it doesn't > >get hot & seize around the blade. > >Cheers Alan > > > >_____________________________________________ >From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video > > >Alan, > >I like the idea of the ropes to control in case of rolling during a >test. BTW, got all that lead today, did you know that you can cut >lead with a Skill saw ? I just tried it today, works really good. I >think I might be able to position all that lead in my ballast area with >out having to melt it . I can secure it with some sort of bolted bar >arrangement. > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video >Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:52:21 +1200 > >Brian, > >so if you add weight you need to add floatation to counter it. > >When I first saw the video I thought perhaps fill the bottom of > >the cylindrical hull section with lead. Maybe pour the lead to the >contour > >of the bottom & add syntactic foam around the conning tower. > >With the height of the conning tower that would improve your > >centre of buoyancy. Tritons top pilot told me he liked to dive as quick > >as possible due to the instability issues that Vance described with > >the CG & CB changing. you may find that you aren't so top heavy > >once the conning tower is under. Perhaps you could attach a rope > >around the conning tower next attempt & limit any roll just in case. > >Cheers Alan > >Sent from my iPad > > >On 15/04/2016, at 2:17 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete >ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area >so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video >Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 > >Another interesting video Brian. > >I see what you mean about the stability. > >Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable > >she was once that big conning tower was under the water. > >What's the next step? > >I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling > >up on any one else's comments. > >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > > >On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Hi All, > > Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: > > > >https://vimeo.com/162570037 > > > >Brian > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 13:34:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:34:10 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <111788599.1104373.1460078546787.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <620ad051-58fc-4d47-8928-7a9015ce7349@email.android.com> Rick, if you are using the equal area reinforcement rule, then the idea is to add material around the hole that will carry stress that would have otherwise been carried by the material in the hole. As such, you get a much greater benefit by making your pipe insert of greater wall thickness, than you do by simply making it longer. While some stress can be redirected away from the shell wall, there are diminishing returns with distance. An eight inch long insert is not going to add twice as much strength to the hole as a four inch long insert, which makes sense intuitively. Doubling the insert diameter, however, makes a substantive difference. That said, you always want to make the smoothest possible load paths without artificial stress concentrations if possible, which means avoiding abrupt 90? changes in geometry. I would size a penetrator insert to be long enough that I could build up a weld bead on it that could be faired back into the hull smoothly, ideally at a 4:1 taper. Better yet, create custom inserts which match the hull thickness at the weld, shaped to optimize the load path across them. Sean On April 8, 2016 8:21:05 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >while were on the subject, I need some clarification on the "replace or >add >what you took out of the pressure vessel skin theory" as when I wanted >to >add a few extra view ports, I called the captian,Ketterage, and asked >about >cutting extra holes in the hull and he said the same thing but then got >to >wondering about that statement. >When you cut a hole in the hull and weld in a piece of solid round >stainless steel with a 1/2" hole in it for gas/wires, you still have a >1/2" >hole in the hull so that theory can only work if you take into >consideration the amount of ss rod that is also on the inside and >outside >of the hull? >If that is the case, it doesn't seem correct to use a pipe with a 1/2" >ID >schedule 40 but you extend it inside and outside until you equal the >same >volume as you removed? >Rick > >On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Hank and Sean, >> Given Hank is probably halfway through building this already and Sean >> might be in the middle of other things I thought I might jump in - I >think >> I can help in general terms. The rule off thumb is if you make a >hole in a >> pressure vessel, you're supposed to put this material back as >reinforcing >> around the hole to keep the same pressure rating. >> >> So if you want to take advantage of the full 4" thickness (wow!!!) >and >> associated depth rating, then you would need to reinforce the hole - >and it >> would need to be a pretty serious reinforcement to replace that >thickness >> of material. >> >> Alternatively, if you don't reinforce, then you lose some of your >depth >> rating, because some of the thickness is locally credited as >> reinforcement. This means an amount of thickness over the rest of >> the shell away from the hole is basically dead weight, which may or >may not >> be a problem depending on whether this gets lowered or is >free-floating. >> >> To put it another way/thought experiment: if you could machine away >all >> the unnecessary material after you've machined the landing area and >> hole, the result would look like a thinner shell with a reinforcement >ring >> welded around the hole. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> PS: All that said, it seems theoretically possible that if you had a >hole >> with a spherical hatch and the right angles, and it all mated >perfectly, >> that with everything in compression it shouldn't matter there was a >hole. >> Probably this doesn't account for the buckling failure mode though. >This >> is getting a bit out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun!). >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Sean, >>> If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >thickness, >>> would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. Or >could a guy >>> or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their flange machine >to work >>> to machine seats in the shell. It seems logical to me that could >be done >>> for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel >in the >>> hatch. Or am I out to lunch? >>> Hank >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 13:37:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:37:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1349083073.1057659.1460741868600.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Sean,If I understand you, I could add thickness to the inside or outside of the hull and machine the hatch or port seat into the hull and extra thickness ring. ?The alternative would be to make an insert that is thicker and weld it in. ?That is not desirable because the weld would be Gigantic, plus it would need to be re-machined anyways.Hank On Friday, April 15, 2016 10:56 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It could be done for the hatch, but the interface would have to be exactly normal to the sphere surface, otherwise reinforcement around the opening becomes necessary, in which case you have to derate the shell to match the effective reinforcement provided by the existing shell thickness, and are then carrying extraneous material elsewhere. This would always be the case for any window seat or other opening which you actually remove steel from. If you plan a hatch like this, all the same rules apply as for hull shells, with regard to full penetration welds and reinforcement around openings for e.g. dogging shafts or viewports. Also, the hatch material, if following exactly the same shape, must be at least as strong as the shell. I ran into this problem on my hull design, where specified limits for plate steel strength are given by ABS, but my hatch was going to be a casting of equivalent material. According to the rules, castings have to be 20% thicker than the numbers would indicate in the absence of exhaustive destructive testing to demonstrate equivalence to plate material. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go slightly thicker regardless, so as to ensure a continuous load path from the hull shell without any geometric discontinuities.In any case, what you don't want to do is machine features into your contiguous shell which introduce stress concentrations (screw holes, stepped seats etc.) without either adding reinforcement, or derating the hull shell accordingly.Sean On April 7, 2016 7:22:26 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. ?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 14:12:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:12:56 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: <1349083073.1057659.1460741868600.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1349083073.1057659.1460741868600.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3f7847ff-009d-46fb-9fa1-d4922787f995@email.android.com> Essentially yes, but anything that you weld in as a reinforcement or to increase thickness must be complete joint penetration, and you must take care to align the hull shell with the matching shell that is integral to your hatch. In the case of the hatch opening where you aren't actually "removing" material from the hole, with a four inch shell wall, you may not require any thickness insert at all - you just need to ensure that the hatch "shell" errs on the side of lesser radius on the inside and greater radius on the outside than the hull shell dimensions. Viewports or other openings that require reinforcement have to have inserts (or consequent shell derating and then carrying the extraneous weight), but there is no particular reason that they need to be entirely separate components from the base hull shell, as long as the geometry and strength requirements are met. I am not a fan of weld deposition in order to build up necessary volume. If you need to add material, design it into the insert and keep your welds small and consistent with ND inspection. This was a consideration in my hull design, where I opted for a cast insert of much larger diameter than the hatch itself, but the insert takes the place of massive weld deposition in achieving the desired geometry: it provides a smooth load path from the weld location, where it matches the hull thickness, to the much larger bearing area at the conical interface. All such inserts have machining allowances on their seats, so that after all welding is completed, the entire hull can be stress-relieved through heat treatment, and then the seats subsequently machined in-situ. The hatches are also cast and then machined to match. Tough process to DIY though without specialised equipment. Sean On April 15, 2016 11:37:48 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thank you Sean,If I understand you, I could add thickness to the inside >or outside of the hull and machine the hatch or port seat into the hull >and extra thickness ring. ?The alternative would be to make an insert >that is thicker and weld it in. ?That is not desirable because the weld >would be Gigantic, plus it would need to be re-machined anyways.Hank > >On Friday, April 15, 2016 10:56 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >It could be done for the hatch, but the interface would have to be >exactly normal to the sphere surface, otherwise reinforcement around >the opening becomes necessary, in which case you have to derate the >shell to match the effective reinforcement provided by the existing >shell thickness, and are then carrying extraneous material elsewhere. >This would always be the case for any window seat or other opening >which you actually remove steel from. If you plan a hatch like this, >all the same rules apply as for hull shells, with regard to full >penetration welds and reinforcement around openings for e.g. dogging >shafts or viewports. Also, the hatch material, if following exactly the >same shape, must be at least as strong as the shell. I ran into this >problem on my hull design, where specified limits for plate steel >strength are given by ABS, but my hatch was going to be a casting of >equivalent material. According to the rules, castings have to be 20% >thicker than the numbers would indicate in the absence of exhaustive >destructive testing to demonstrate equivalence to plate material. It >wouldn't be a bad idea to go slightly thicker regardless, so as to >ensure a continuous load path from the hull shell without any geometric >discontinuities.In any case, what you don't want to do is machine >features into your contiguous shell which introduce stress >concentrations (screw holes, stepped seats etc.) without either adding >reinforcement, or derating the hull shell accordingly.Sean > >On April 7, 2016 7:22:26 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell >thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. >?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their >?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems >logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would >be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? >?Hank >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 14:28:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:28:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Message-ID: <20160415112848.1188E62E@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 16:04:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: trailer mod In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <764319389.1101509.1460750698963.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a picture of my efforts for today. I modified my sub trailer to carry the tender up front. ?I cut up the small boat trailer and put the self adjusting rollers on the sub trailer so the boat loads real easy. ?I also removed the 30 hp motor from the boat because I have to take it off to haul. ?I put a light 9.5 hp on in its place. ?The sub tows so slow that a 30 hp is just a waste of fuel. ?I also made the boat sit high enough on the trailer so that I can pick the boat off with my bob-cat with forks,,,SWEET.Hank On Friday, April 15, 2016 1:56 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0331.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33012 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 16:11:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:11:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] port ring In-Reply-To: <3f7847ff-009d-46fb-9fa1-d4922787f995@email.android.com> References: <3f7847ff-009d-46fb-9fa1-d4922787f995@email.android.com> Message-ID: <2051501430.1190909.1460751073903.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Sean,I doubt I can build such an?impractical expensive sub, but it is fun to think about how I would do it. ?I wouldn't be able to build the sphere with my equipment-I would have EE do it all, welding and machining. ??Hank On Friday, April 15, 2016 12:13 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Essentially yes, but anything that you weld in as a reinforcement or to increase thickness must be complete joint penetration, and you must take care to align the hull shell with the matching shell that is integral to your hatch.? In the case of the hatch opening where you aren't actually "removing" material from the hole, with a four inch shell wall, you may not require any thickness insert at all - you just need to ensure that the hatch "shell" errs on the side of lesser radius on the inside and greater radius on the outside than the hull shell dimensions.? Viewports or other openings that require reinforcement have to have inserts (or consequent shell derating and then carrying the extraneous weight), but there is no particular reason that they need to be entirely separate components from the base hull shell, as long as the geometry and strength requirements are met.I am not a fan of weld deposition in order to build up necessary volume. If you need to add material, design it into the insert and keep your welds small and consistent with ND inspection. This was a consideration in my hull design, where I opted for a cast insert of much larger diameter than the hatch itself, but the insert takes the place of massive weld deposition in achieving the desired geometry: it provides a smooth load path from the weld location, where it matches the hull thickness, to the much larger bearing area at the conical interface.? All such inserts have machining allowances on their seats, so that after all welding is completed, the entire hull can be stress-relieved through heat treatment, and then the seats subsequently machined in-situ.? The hatches are also cast and then machined to match. Tough process to DIY though without specialised equipment.Sean On April 15, 2016 11:37:48 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Sean,If I understand you, I could add thickness to the inside or outside of the hull and machine the hatch or port seat into the hull and extra thickness ring. ?The alternative would be to make an insert that is thicker and weld it in. ?That is not desirable because the weld would be Gigantic, plus it would need to be re-machined anyways.Hank On Friday, April 15, 2016 10:56 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It could be done for the hatch, but the interface would have to be exactly normal to the sphere surface, otherwise reinforcement around the opening becomes necessary, in which case you have to derate the shell to match the effective reinforcement provided by the existing shell thickness, and are then carrying extraneous material elsewhere. This would always be the case for any window seat or other opening which you actually remove steel from. If you plan a hatch like this, all the same rules apply as for hull shells, with regard to full penetration welds and reinforcement around openings fo! r e.g.dogging shafts or viewports. Also, the hatch material, if following exactly the same shape, must be at least as strong as the shell. I ran into this problem on my hull design, where specified limits for plate steel strength are given by ABS, but my hatch was going to be a casting of equivalent material. According to the rules, castings have to be 20% thicker than the numbers would indicate in the absence of exhaustive destructive testing to demonstrate equivalence to plate material. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go slightly thicker regardless, so as to ensure a continuous load path from the hull shell without any geometric discontinuities.In any case, what you don't want to do is machine features into your contiguous shell which introduce stress concentrations (screw holes, stepped seats etc.) without either adding reinforcement, or derating the hull shell accordingly.Sean On April 7, 2016 7:22:26 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,If a guy was to buy a 48inch id CNG sphere with a 4 inch shell thickness, would it be necessary to weld in a land ring and port seat. ?Or could a guy or gal rough cut the necessary holes then put their ?flange machine to work to machine seats in the shell. ? ?It seems logical to me that could be done for the hatch because the load would be supported by the same steel in the hatch. ?Or am I out to lunch? ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 16:20:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:20:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1816914619.1366480.1460751651331.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec,enjoyed that. Your other passion. When you have been on this site for yearsit's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with.I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Hey guys, I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a fun moment with my friends. https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 17:26:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 07:26:39 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: <1816914619.1366480.1460751651331.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1816914619.1366480.1460751651331.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) Cheers, Steve On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alec, > enjoyed that. Your other passion. > When you have been on this site for years > it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. > I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > > Hey guys, > > I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. > However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this > video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a > fun moment with my friends. > > https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive > > Cheers, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 15 20:41:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:41:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video In-Reply-To: <20160414221814.E76F96EA@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160414221814.E76F96EA@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <000701d19778$a68b45f0$f3a1d1d0$@telus.net> Sounds good, Brian. Adding lead to the bottom is definitely simpler. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:18 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Tim, Hoping I can avoid doing that , I can handle a bit of rolling as long as I don't flip over. After all, if I ever get this thing to "fly" a little roll will be ok on a banked turn. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:19:34 -0700 Hey Brian, I was very impressed with how stable in roll Gamma became after Hank replaced the front ballast tank with the two forward saddle tanks. Exactly how Jim describes Snoopy. I hoisted myself out of the water over one of Gamma's saddle tanks while Hank was sitting on the CT, and the sub had no real roll tendency. Perhaps a pair of saddle tanks forward and another pair aft would solve it. You should expect that transitioning through the air-water interface while submerging and surfacing is when roll (and pitch) stability is the greatest challenge. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:14 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Brian, Vance is dead right! don't cut into your MBT yet. I can't tell you how many times I made a mess trying to solve a problem. I resisted make big changes with Elementary 3000 only to discover I had built the sub perfectly and just had it over weight. Weird things happen. Just strap the weights on first, you will learn a lot from that. Hank On Thursday, April 14, 2016 3:02 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I've got plenty of room in the bottom of my concrete ballast structure to put lead, which is actually slightly lower than the bottom of the sphere. Just looking at the video I need enough to sink the top half of the sphere. That works out to be around 2000 lbs or so of lead. Volume of sphere is 65 cu ft. Then I'll have to make sure it sinks evenly longitudily , so I may have of spread the weight out a bit or add to the nose. Just scored about 1000 lbs of lead at the boatyard ! A wrecked sailboat keel ! We'll make it work ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:20:29 -0400 Brian, Alec imparted some education to me one time on roll control. When he added side ballast tanks to Snoopy, I asked why he had mounted them so they were partially above the waterline when surfaced. He explained that when the vessel rolls to one side, the tank on that side then becomes more submerged and provides more "lift." Simultaneously the tank on the other side rises and provides less lift. The net effect is automatic roll dampening. Jim T. In a message dated 4/14/2016 9:18:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi Alan, Going to add a lot of weight to the bottom of the concrete ballast , at the very bottom. Need to cut an access hole in that area so I can put lead bars in there and bolt them in. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more Esmae video Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:17:46 +1200 Another interesting video Brian. I see what you mean about the stability. Pity you couldn't have sunk her completely to see how stable she was once that big conning tower was under the water. What's the next step? I am not sure I am getting all the posts so apologies if I'm doubling up on any one else's comments. Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/04/2016, at 10:19 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi All, Here is some additional video made by a friend of mine: https://vimeo.com/162570037 Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 16:59:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:59:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 18:02:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:02:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1538520751.2367398.1461016943010.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Got it RickHank On Monday, April 18, 2016 2:59 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 18:11:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:11:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts References: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 21:05:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:05:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f8b00bb-0031-4136-9460-7379525208d4@email.android.com> There are a few reasons: 1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost of an additional heat / pour. For multiple similar parts (six identical hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from billets. 2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of risers, flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases these wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse. 3) Suitability to size. Some parts which would be awkward to handle or difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be more readily cast at lesser cost. 4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile is generally not critical, and then subsequently machining specific faces or features to establish critical dimensions. This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from the hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features (contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank. Sean On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy >disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 21:18:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:18:07 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <1f8b00bb-0031-4136-9460-7379525208d4@email.android.com> References: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1f8b00bb-0031-4136-9460-7379525208d4@email.android.com> Message-ID: Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to pay for the pattern making. Just do some research first - you need to accommodate shrinkage, and the draft requirement. Also, you do need to 100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can be quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and corrected for our application. Sean On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >There are a few reasons: > >1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master >pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with >them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost >of an additional heat / pour. For multiple similar parts (six >identical hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from >billets. > >2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material >efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room >floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of >risers, flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases >these wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse. > >3) Suitability to size. Some parts which would be awkward to handle or >difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be >more readily cast at lesser cost. > >4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily >incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to >reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without >necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to >do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations >exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different >for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine >envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, >avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is >greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, >apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider >material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid >warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: >casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile >is generally not critical, and! > then >subsequently machining specific faces or features to establish critical >dimensions. > >This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from >the hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth >large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact >interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then >also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features >(contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank. > >Sean > > > >On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy >>disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 21:57:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:57:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts Message-ID: <20160418185717.E769A08C@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 21:58:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 01:58:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1455746421.2486806.1461031092160.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I have to admit,I find the process?of mould making quite romantic. ?I think that is one of the reasons I keep looking at concrete. ?With concrete you have total freedom of form. ?I have it all worked out how I would make a perfect sphere. ? I thought you had to over build when you cast parts, does this not mess with your buoyancy. ?That can be costly- your sub is likely big enough to handle the weight.?Hank On Monday, April 18, 2016 7:18 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to pay for the pattern making.? Just do some research first - you need to accommodate shrinkage, and the draft requirement.? Also, you do need to 100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can be quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and corrected for our application.Sean On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There are a few reasons:1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost of an additional heat / pour.? For multiple similar parts (six identical hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from billets.2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of risers, flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases these wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse.3) Suitability to size.? Some parts which would be awkward to handle or difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be more readily cast at lesser cost.4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile is generally notcritical, and then subsequently machining specific faces or features to establish critical dimensions.This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from the hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features (contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank.Sean On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.! org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 22:02:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 20:02:35 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <20160418185717.E769A08C@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160418185717.E769A08C@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <47b69420-c657-45ab-a1b7-ceb4019205a9@email.android.com> Yes, but only to create the necessary machined surfaces and features. You wouldn't need to hog large volumes of material out of a billet, for example. Sean On April 18, 2016 7:57:17 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, > >I would think you would still need to machine this hatch part after in >comes from the foundry, no ? > > > >brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:18:07 -0600 > >Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a >hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns >from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to >pay for the pattern making. Just do some research first - you need to >accommodate shrinkage, and the draft requirement. Also, you do need to >100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can be >quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and corrected >for our application. > >Sean > > >On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >There are a few reasons: > >1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master >pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with >them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost >of an additional heat / pour. For multiple similar parts (six >identical hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from >billets. > >2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material >efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room >floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of >risers, flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases >these wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse. > >3) Suitability to size. Some parts which would be awkward to handle or >difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be >more readily cast at lesser cost. > >4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily >incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to >reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without >necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to >do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations >exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different >for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine >envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, >avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is >greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, >apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider >material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid >warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: >casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile >is generally not critical, and then subsequently machining specific >faces or features to establish critical dimensions. > >This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from >the hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth >large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact >interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then >also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features >(contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank. > >Sean > >On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Hi Sean, > >I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy disk, it >would be one piece and any shape you want. > >Hank > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.! org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 22:17:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:17:24 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <1f8b00bb-0031-4136-9460-7379525208d4@email.android.com> References: <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1639487162.2314393.1461017469898.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1f8b00bb-0031-4136-9460-7379525208d4@email.android.com> Message-ID: <57159534.1090608@archivale.com> Well put. There's an additional advantage now, which is that masters can be 3-D printed from CAD files, so the master pattern maker's services are not required. Marc On 4/19/2016 9:05 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > There are a few reasons: > > 1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master > pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with > them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost > of an additional heat / pour. For multiple similar parts (six identical > hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from billets. > > 2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material > efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room > floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of risers, > flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases these > wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse. > > 3) Suitability to size. Some parts which would be awkward to handle or > difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be > more readily cast at lesser cost. > > 4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily > incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to > reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without > necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to do > so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations exclusively > is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different for each - > with machined parts, you need to think about machine envelope, > repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, avoiding > impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is greater > freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, apply > draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider > material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid warping. > Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: casting a > blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile is > generally not critical, and then subsequently machining specific faces > or features to establish critical dimensions. > > This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from the > hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth > large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact > interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then > also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features > (contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank. > > Sean > > > > On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Sean, > I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy disk, > it would be one piece and any shape you want. > Hank > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 18 22:19:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:19:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fixing leaks Message-ID: <20160418191901.E769A797@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 07:51:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 05:51:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <1455746421.2486806.1461031092160.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1455746421.2486806.1461031092160.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7f520b15-54e7-4a96-b74a-d28d0f29be11@email.android.com> Not sure what you mean by overbuild? I only ever design things to be as strong as they need to be. A casting is not a forging - you must accept that the strength gains you get by working as with forgings and plate materials don't exist in castings - all processes have tradeoffs. I would specify an appropriate material, such as ASTM A352 LCC, which is analogous to the A516 grade 70 plate specification with regard to low temperature toughness. Also could use A216, but I note that the ABS steel vessel rules point out that all 216 castings should use a 0.8 quality factor unless NDT is carried out beyond that required by the material specification, which would necessitate the part being 25% larger for equivalent load carrying capacity. For a sub I would NDT the hell out of it anyway, so it comes down to a confidence thing. This is something I would work with the foundry on in order to minimize voids, and then a NDT professional in order to detect any that do exist. It's always better to use a stringent material specification (i.e. A352), a reputable foundry who can discuss these issues with you, and do material testing (both exhaustive NDT on the completed part and e.g. notch toughness tests using samples from the same heat) so you can be assured of exactly what you have, versus not being confident and overbuilding to compensate. In any case, cast parts don't necessarily need to be larger than machined equivalents. In fact, often the freedom of form afforded by casting allows you to eliminate geometric stress concentrations that would be unavoidable with plate fabrication and machining operations exclusively, such that even if you have less load carrying capacity in the material, you also have less load to carry because you can delocalize it. I think the bigger consideration for the amateur is the tradeoff between the advantages of casting any particular part, versus the cost of doing the NDT. Sean On April 18, 2016 7:58:12 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,I have to admit,I find the process?of mould making quite romantic. >?I think that is one of the reasons I keep looking at concrete. ?With >concrete you have total freedom of form. ?I have it all worked out how >I would make a perfect sphere. ? >I thought you had to over build when you cast parts, does this not mess >with your buoyancy. ?That can be costly- your sub is likely big enough >to handle the weight.?Hank > >On Monday, April 18, 2016 7:18 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a >hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns >from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to >pay for the pattern making.? Just do some research first - you need to >accommodate shrinkage, and the draft requirement.? Also, you do need to >100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can be >quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and corrected >for our application.Sean > > >On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >There are a few reasons:1) Economy of process. Creating a casting >entails creating a master pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the >foundry or associated with them. Once this is done, additional parts >can be obtained for the cost of an additional heat / pour.? For >multiple similar parts (six identical hatches) this is cheaper than >machining them all from billets.2) Economy of waste. Machining from >billets obviously is less material efficient, as much of the billet >ends up as chips on the machine room floor. With a casting, extraneous >material exists in the form of risers, flow channels and flash that >must be trimmed, but in many cases these wastes can be cleaned and >remelted in the furnace for reuse.3) Suitability to size.? Some parts >which would be awkward to handle or difficult to machine without access >to suitably large machines can be more readily cast at lesser cost.4) >Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily incorporate >large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to reduce >local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without >necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to >do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations >exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different >for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine >envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, >avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is >greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, >apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider >material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid >warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: >casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile >is generally notcritical, and then subsequently machining specific >faces or features to establish critical dimensions.This is the approach >I am taking - casting the transition rings from the hull shell >thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth large >curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact interface >is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then also >casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features (contact >interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank.Sean > >On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy >disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.! org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 08:25:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:25:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <7f520b15-54e7-4a96-b74a-d28d0f29be11@email.android.com> References: <7f520b15-54e7-4a96-b74a-d28d0f29be11@email.android.com> Message-ID: <42748945.2695060.1461068714444.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,By "over built" I meant just what you said, .08 quality factor. ?Good point though about the advantage of formability giving?strength in itself. ? I still am amazed that there is a ?cost saving. ?It seems so complicated, but I know nothing about it either, other than high school Aluminum casting in metal shop. ?I went to a machine shop in Cranbrook to have a new land ring water jet cut and I mentioned how long it took me to machine my port frame. ?The owner (real nice guy) ?said he could C&C machine the remaining two frames for 300?dollars each. ?That is nothing, ?that makes each port frame 600 dollars for material and machining, ready to weld in. ? It will be interesting to see how that compares to having the part cast.Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not sure what you mean by overbuild? I only ever design things to be as strong as they need to be. A casting is not a forging - you must accept that the strength gains you get by working as with forgings and plate materials don't exist in castings - all processes have tradeoffs.I would specify an appropriate material, such as ASTM A352 LCC, which is analogous to the A516 grade 70 plate specification with regard to low temperature toughness. Also could use A216, but I note that the ABS steel vessel rules point out that all 216 castings should use a 0.8 quality factor unless NDT is carried out beyond that required by the material specification, which would necessitate the part being 25% larger for equivalent load carrying capacity. For a sub I would NDT the hell out of it anyway, so it comes down to a confidence thing. This is something I would work with the foundry on in order to minimize voids, and then a NDT professional in order to detect any that do exist.It's always better to use a stringent material specification (i.e. A352), a reputable foundry who can discuss these issues with you, and do material testing (both exhaustive NDT on the completed part and e.g. notch toughness tests using samples from the same heat) so you can be assured of exactly what you have, versus not being confident and overbuilding to compensate.In any case, cast parts don't necessarily need to be larger than machined equivalents. In fact, often the freedom of form afforded by casting allows you to eliminate geometric stress concentrations that would be unavoidable with plate fabrication and machining operations exclusively, such that even if you have less load carrying capacity in the material, you also have less load to carry because you can delocalize it.I think the bigger consideration for the amateur is the tradeoff between the advantages of casting any particular part, versus the cost of doing the NDT.Sean On April 18, 2016 7:58:12 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I have to admit,I find the process?of mould making quite romantic. ?I think that is one of the reasons I keep looking at concrete. ?With concrete you have total freedom of form. ?I have it all worked out how I would make a perfect sphere. ? I thought you had to over build when you cast parts, does this not mess with your buoyancy. ?That can be costly- your sub is likely big enough to handle the weight.?Hank On Monday, April 18, 2016 7:18 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to pay for the pattern making.? Just do some research first - you need to accommodate shrinkage, and ! thedraft requirement.? Also, you do need to 100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can be quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and corrected for our application.Sean On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There are a few reasons:1) Economy of process. Creating a casting entails creating a master pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the foundry or associated with them. Once this is done, additional parts can be obtained for the cost of an additional heat / pour.? For multiple similar parts (six identical hatches) this is cheaper than machining them all from billets.2) Economy of waste. Machining from billets obviously is less material efficient, as much of the billet ends up as chips on the machine room floor. With a casting, extraneous material exists in the form of risers, flow channels and flash that must be trimmed, but in many cases these wastes can be cleaned and remelted in the furnace for reuse.3) Suitability to size.? Some parts which would be awkward to handle or difficult to machine without access to suitably large machines can be more readily cast at lesser cost.4) Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily incorporate large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to reduce local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile is generally notcritical, and then subsequently machining specific faces or features to establish critical dimensions.This is the approach I am taking - casting the transition rings from the hull shell thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth large curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact interface is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then also casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features (contact interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank.Sean On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.! org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list! Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 09:13:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:13:57 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] casting parts In-Reply-To: <42748945.2695060.1461068714444.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7f520b15-54e7-4a96-b74a-d28d0f29be11@email.android.com> <42748945.2695060.1461068714444.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <510ec996-a42a-426f-9b98-f873ca517abf@email.android.com> You get around the .8 factor by doing the exhaustive 100% NDT. If you can confirm negligible voids, you can design directly to the material specification. That may be more expensive than simply making the part thicker, but if your buoyancy margin is low, might be the only way to make castings work. I didn't want to have any machined surfaces on parts that subsequently need to be welded, so that I can maintain design tolerances and not worry about heat induced distortion from welding. As such, all parts are welded first, with machining allowances (extra material) where I require machined surfaces, and then I can stress relieve the whole thing before doing the necessary facing (a handful of identical conical seats) in situ. This, of course, is not a DIY step and must be contracted. As for your port seats, I'm not sure you would realize the advantage of casting by merely recreating your frames using a casting process - the seats need to be machined anyway, and that is a large part of the cost, and billet material will be higher quality than the cast material. Where the advantage comes into play is rethinking the insert to instead make a larger diameter casting which incorporates the smooth transition back to the hull thickness, so that you have a longer weld, but one which is just a butt weld as thick as the hull, and further away from the machined seat so you can get away with machining prior to welding without warping. Such a part would be loaded more lightly than a weld between the hull and a thick insert, and eliminates the stress concentration occurring at the abrupt change in geometry. Sean On April 19, 2016 6:25:14 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,By "over built" I meant just what you said, .08 quality factor. >?Good point though about the advantage of formability giving?strength >in itself. ? I still am amazed that there is a ?cost saving. ?It seems >so complicated, but I know nothing about it either, other than high >school Aluminum casting in metal shop. ?I went to a machine shop in >Cranbrook to have a new land ring water jet cut and I mentioned how >long it took me to machine my port frame. ?The owner (real nice guy) >?said he could C&C machine the remaining two frames for 300?dollars >each. ?That is nothing, ?that makes each port frame 600 dollars for >material and machining, ready to weld in. ? It will be interesting to >see how that compares to having the part cast.Hank > >On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Not sure what you mean by overbuild? I only ever design things to be as >strong as they need to be. A casting is not a forging - you must accept >that the strength gains you get by working as with forgings and plate >materials don't exist in castings - all processes have tradeoffs.I >would specify an appropriate material, such as ASTM A352 LCC, which is >analogous to the A516 grade 70 plate specification with regard to low >temperature toughness. Also could use A216, but I note that the ABS >steel vessel rules point out that all 216 castings should use a 0.8 >quality factor unless NDT is carried out beyond that required by the >material specification, which would necessitate the part being 25% >larger for equivalent load carrying capacity. For a sub I would NDT the >hell out of it anyway, so it comes down to a confidence thing. This is >something I would work with the foundry on in order to minimize voids, >and then a NDT professional in order to detect any that do exist.It's >always better to use a stringent material specification (i.e. A352), a >reputable foundry who can discuss these issues with you, and do >material testing (both exhaustive NDT on the completed part and e.g. >notch toughness tests using samples from the same heat) so you can be >assured of exactly what you have, versus not being confident and >overbuilding to compensate.In any case, cast parts don't necessarily >need to be larger than machined equivalents. In fact, often the freedom >of form afforded by casting allows you to eliminate geometric stress >concentrations that would be unavoidable with plate fabrication and >machining operations exclusively, such that even if you have less load >carrying capacity in the material, you also have less load to carry >because you can delocalize it.I think the bigger consideration for the >amateur is the tradeoff between the advantages of casting any >particular part, versus the cost of doing the NDT.Sean > >On April 18, 2016 7:58:12 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,I have to admit,I find the process?of mould making quite romantic. >?I think that is one of the reasons I keep looking at concrete. ?With >concrete you have total freedom of form. ?I have it all worked out how >I would make a perfect sphere. ? >I thought you had to over build when you cast parts, does this not mess >with your buoyancy. ?That can be costly- your sub is likely big enough >to handle the weight.?Hank > >On Monday, April 18, 2016 7:18 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Actually, I would think that casting would be a useful process for a >hands-on guy like you, Hank. You could probably do your own patterns >from plywood and Bondo and then deal with a foundry without having to >pay for the pattern making.? Just do some research first - you need to >accommodate shrinkage, and ! thedraft requirement.? Also, you do need >to 100% NDT the completed castings. Unlike billets / plates, voids can >be quite common in cast parts, and these need to be detected and >corrected for our application.Sean > > >On April 18, 2016 7:05:01 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >There are a few reasons:1) Economy of process. Creating a casting >entails creating a master pattern, usually by a pattern maker at the >foundry or associated with them. Once this is done, additional parts >can be obtained for the cost of an additional heat / pour.? For >multiple similar parts (six identical hatches) this is cheaper than >machining them all from billets.2) Economy of waste. Machining from >billets obviously is less material efficient, as much of the billet >ends up as chips on the machine room floor. With a casting, extraneous >material exists in the form of risers, flow channels and flash that >must be trimmed, but in many cases these wastes can be cleaned and >remelted in the furnace for reuse.3) Suitability to size.? Some parts >which would be awkward to handle or difficult to machine without access >to suitably large machines can be more readily cast at lesser cost.4) >Efficacy of form. The casting process allows you to readily incorporate >large sweeping or compound curvatures and other features to reduce >local stress concentrations or improve aesthetics, without >necessitating multiple machining operations or tooling change outs to >do so. Often, recreating a cast part with machining operations >exclusively is prohibitively expensive. The design process is different >for each - with machined parts, you need to think about machine >envelope, repositioning, cutter clearances and interferences, tooling, >avoiding impossible operations, and so forth. With castings, there is >greater freedom of form, although you have to avoid thin-walled parts, >apply draft to parallel edges to facilitate mold release, and consider >material flow into the mold and how the part will cool to avoid >warping. Often, combining processes gives you the best of both worlds: >casting a blank to get the overall desired shape where surface profile >is generally notcritical, and then subsequently machining specific >faces or features to establish critical dimensions.This is the approach >I am taking - casting the transition rings from the hull shell >thickness to the hatch seat thickness to get that smooth large >curvature (and a sexier looking part, IMO), where the contact interface >is machined in situ after stress relieving the hull, and then also >casting the hatch blanks and machining their critical features (contact >interface, O-ring grooves) into the blank.Sean > >On April 18, 2016 4:11:09 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,I am curious why you wouldn't machine your hatch from a heavy >disk, it would be one piece and any shape you want.Hank >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.! org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list! >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 10:12:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:12:26 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Log alternatives Message-ID: Hey all, I?m using an ordinary log wheel on Malen right now, but i find it inaccurate in lower speeds. What (affordable) alternatives is there to an ordinary wheel log and how much do they cost? Thanks, Lasse -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 12:12:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:12:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule References: <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Big week this, ?tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in my favourite lake. ?Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest spot, 980 feet. ? ?I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it sit for one hr. ?Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) ?Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting heavier. ? ? Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow her home. ?I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet. ?I would do it now but I am unemployed still ;-(Hank? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 13:21:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:21:31 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time and money to leave her there. Rick On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Big week this, tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in > my favourite lake. Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am > Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest > spot, 980 feet. I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it > sit for one hr. Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) > Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting > heavier. Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow > her home. I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will > haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet. I would do > it now but I am unemployed still ;-( > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 13:29:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1028777278.2837800.1461086959915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well.Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time and money to leave her there.Rick On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Big week this, ?tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in my favourite lake.? Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest spot, 980 feet. ? ?I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it sit for one hr.? Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) ?Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting heavier. ? ? Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow her home.? I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet.? I would do it now but I am unemployed still ;-(Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 15:03:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:03:30 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: <1028777278.2837800.1461086959915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1028777278.2837800.1461086959915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds good Hank. Good luck. Take some pics for us. Regards James On 19 April 2016 at 18:29, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if > she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time > and money to leave her there. > Rick > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Big week this, tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in > my favourite lake. Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am > Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest > spot, 980 feet. I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it > sit for one hr. Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) > Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting > heavier. Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow > her home. I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will > haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet. I would do > it now but I am unemployed still ;-( > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 15:24:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:24:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: <1028777278.2837800.1461086959915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1028777278.2837800.1461086959915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If that is a worry, you could always rig up external liftbags on some sort of hydrostatic or deadman release. Sean On April 19, 2016 11:29:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Rick,No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well.Hank > >On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, >Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in >if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in >time and money to leave her there.Rick > >On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Big week this, ?tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet >in my favourite lake.? Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 >am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the >deepest spot, 980 feet. ? ?I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope >and let it sit for one hr.? Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the >wait ;-) ?Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is >getting heavier. ? ? Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her >up and tow her home.? I can start diving her after all that, and in the >fall I will haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 >feet.? I would do it now but I am unemployed still ;-(Hank? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 15:27:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:27:44 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. Message-ID: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> Hi, A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my submersible. Nearly a "instruction video" how to launch with trailer extension boom.. It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU regards, Emile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 15:47:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:47:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> Message-ID: <37280029.3567297.1461095273200.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Emile, very good. I had heard something about you replacing your rear thruster.Was that the protruar 2hp you replaced. I remember you sayingthe gearbox was a bit noisy. What did you replace it with.Alan From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:27 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. Hi, ?A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my submersible.Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU ?regards, Emile _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 16:05:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:05:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1696797464.2914645.1461096325426.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I was just thinking I could put my?safety valve on. ?When I was getting Gamma ready to test, I built a valve system that went between the sub and the lift rope. ?When the lift rope over powers two springs a HP air valve opens and air goes into the MBT. ?I have it so might as well use it in case a trawl float or two fail? ?Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:03 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sounds good Hank.? Good luck.? Take some pics for us.RegardsJames On 19 April 2016 at 18:29, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well.Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time and money to leave her there.Rick On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Big week this, ?tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in my favourite lake.? Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest spot, 980 feet. ? ?I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it sit for one hr.? Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) ?Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting heavier. ? ? Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow her home.? I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet.? I would do it now but I am unemployed still ;-(Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 16:31:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:31:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> Message-ID: That was a really good video. Not only that, when it ended Youtube launched into what I'm guessing is another one shot by your friend and it was about a Reliant Robin meet-up. You keep very select company Emile, I'd like to meet your discriminating friends. Particularly whoever painted his Reliant Robin like the Dukes of Hazard car, that made it impossible to keep a straight face. All I would have added is someone in a mini pretending to be Mr. Bean! Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:27 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi, > > > > A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my > submersible. > > Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. > It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU > > > > regards, Emile > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 17:45:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:45:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Message-ID: Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 17:59:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:59:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5716AA3E.9070805@psubs.org> I purchased 50A models although they don't sell the one I purchased any more. My rationale is that I am unlikely to be at full throttle for any extended period of time. I could even clip it at 40amps max through software. Jon On 4/19/2016 5:45 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton > over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one > from Roboteq: > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. > Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and > still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because > it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort > (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 18:03:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:03:24 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> Message-ID: thanks Emile! goes well with your very stable 3 axle trailer. love that familiar engine roaring... regards Antoine On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:27 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi, > > > > A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my > submersible. > > Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. > It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU > > > > regards, Emile > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 18:05:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:05:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Message-ID: Alec,I purchased my controller from Kelly Controller. It has been good so far.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 04/19/2016 4:45 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 18:09:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:09:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 18:14:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:14:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5716ADD7.5090600@psubs.org> Alec, check the specs on that controller...don't know if it's a misprint but it's saying 40A continuous, 75A for 30 seconds. The MDC2460 provides 50A continuous for about half the price. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 19:08:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:08:01 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: <1696797464.2914645.1461096325426.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1696797464.2914645.1461096325426.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you couldn't get it up you'd have to build another sub to go and get it... :) Hope for the best, plan for the worst? Ie. Perhaps so long as you have a cable strong enough to pull a flooded sub up and a buoy big enough to leave on the (heavy??) cable then you would at least have the option of returning with a bigger boat/crane/more gear. Bear in mind that lift bags are going to need a lot of gas at that depth. Ie. An 80cf aluminum tank at 3000PSI if fully emptied into a lift bag will provide 2200kg of lift on the surface, but only 73kg at 1000ft depth. But since you're leak testing in 100ft and it's way less than design pressure, failure would be extremely unlikely so maybe as you say just trust your manufacturing is good :) Cheers, Steve On 20 Apr 2016 6:09 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I was just thinking I could put my safety valve on. When I was getting > Gamma ready to test, I built a valve system that went between the sub and > the lift rope. When the lift rope over powers two springs a HP air valve > opens and air goes into the MBT. I have it so might as well use it in case > a trawl float or two fail? > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:03 PM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Sounds good Hank. Good luck. Take some pics for us. > Regards > James > > On 19 April 2016 at 18:29, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if > she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time > and money to leave her there. > Rick > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Big week this, tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in > my favourite lake. Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am > Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest > spot, 980 feet. I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it > sit for one hr. Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) > Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting > heavier. Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow > her home. I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will > haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet. I would do > it now but I am unemployed still ;-( > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 19:12:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:12:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 19:32:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:32:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1717929543.3711345.1461108769751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,the XDC2460 does not advertise itself as suitable for traction vehicles.I know we aren't technically a traction vehicle, but it may indicate that the controllermight not be suitable for rugged applications. I do like the radio control inputoption on it but with a bit of thought you could implement this on a Kelly controller.I have destroyed a few controllers in my playing round :( . The controller is morelikely to fail than the motor & if you had a dual motor controller then possibly you would have 2 motors down instead of one if it failed.?Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 19:35:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:35:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 20:06:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:06:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <702608118.2949818.1461110796143.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Yes correct, I would simply build another sub and go get it.;-) ?The 100 foot test is no problem if it fails, I would just go get it with Gamma.?Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:08 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you couldn't get it up you'd have to build another sub to go and get it... :)Hope for the best, plan for the worst? Ie. Perhaps so long as you have a cable strong enough to pull a flooded sub up and a buoy big enough to leave on the (heavy??) cable then you would at least have the option of returning with a bigger boat/crane/more gear.Bear in mind that lift bags are going to need a lot of gas at that depth. Ie. An 80cf aluminum tank at 3000PSI if fully emptied into a lift bag will provide 2200kg of lift on the surface, but only 73kg at 1000ft depth.But since you're leak testing in 100ft and it's way less than design pressure, failure would be extremely unlikely so maybe as you say just trust your manufacturing is good :)Cheers, SteveOn 20 Apr 2016 6:09 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: I was just thinking I could put my?safety valve on.? When I was getting Gamma ready to test, I built a valve system that went between the sub and the lift rope.? When the lift rope over powers two springs a HP air valve opens and air goes into the MBT.? I have it so might as well use it in case a trawl float or two fail? ?Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:03 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sounds good Hank.? Good luck.? Take some pics for us.RegardsJames On 19 April 2016 at 18:29, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,No plan for recovery, just faith that I built it well.Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in time and money to leave her there.Rick On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Big week this, ?tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 feet in my favourite lake.? Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, then at 6 am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary 3000 to the deepest spot, 980 feet. ? ?I will let her sink to the bottom on a rope and let it sit for one hr.? Maybe I should bring a fishing rod for the wait ;-) ?Actually I will lift the sub a few feet often to see if it is getting heavier. ? ? Hopefully it will be a success and I will pull her up and tow her home.? I can start diving her after all that, and in the fall I will haul her to Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet.? I would do it now but I am unemployed still ;-(Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 20:09:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:09:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1082392805.3016717.1461110977451.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I have a curtis golf cart controller in Gamma and it is bullet proof, tough as nails, cheap, looks cool and I got a spare from an old golf cart. ?How can you go wrong with that. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:40 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 20:42:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:42:35 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: <702608118.2949818.1461110796143.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <702608118.2949818.1461110796143.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not entirely convinced that such a failure would be an accident at this point. ;-) Sean On April 19, 2016 6:06:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Steve,Yes correct, I would simply build another sub and go get it.;-) From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 21:00:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 01:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119198439.3085908.1461114046685.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> That is funny lol. ?I am thinking of the next project though, after Gamma is back together of coarse.?Hank On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm not entirely convinced that such a failure would be an accident at this point. ;-) Sean On April 19, 2016 6:06:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Steve,Yes correct, I would simply build another sub and go get it.;-) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 21:36:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:36:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5716DD0A.4070600@psubs.org> Pretty sure Cliff used the Minn-Kota controllers. Alec, you sent the link for the brushless controller which I didn't pick up on like Alan did. I was trying to figure out why something with only 40A continuous was significantly more money than the others that had higher output and now I see it. If you settle on Roboteq then the extra $100 for 80A continuous per channel seems like a good investment for a pretty strong safety margin as compared to the MDC2460 which I assume is the 50A continuous model you were looking at. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 21:42:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:42:56 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test schedule In-Reply-To: References: <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971472271.2817907.1461082331751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5716DEA0.9090005@archivale.com> A hundred feet is still SCUBA accessible. You can send somebody down with salvage airbags to buoy her up. On 4/20/2016 1:21 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hank, > > Do you have a plan to lift her back to the surface and tow her back in > if she takes on water and becomes heavy? That's a lot of investment in > time and money to leave her there. > Rick > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > Big week this, tomorrow I test the deep dive test system to 100 > feet in my favourite lake. Saturday I drive out to Slocan Lake, > then at 6 am Sunday morning I will be on the lake towing Elementary > 3000 to the deepest spot, 980 feet. I will let her sink to the > bottom on a rope and let it sit for one hr. Maybe I should bring a > fishing rod for the wait ;-) Actually I will lift the sub a few > feet often to see if it is getting heavier. Hopefully it will be > a success and I will pull her up and tow her home. I can start > diving her after all that, and in the fall I will haul her to > Burnaby BC for the pressure pot test to 4,700 feet. I would do it > now but I am unemployed still ;-( > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 21:58:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:58:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 22:24:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:24:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. > They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal > relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that > absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered > up while in the garage. > > My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. > This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the > Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm > looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems > to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more > advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel > controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one > can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 22:34:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:34:59 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> Message-ID: When I bought my 3 101,s last year, the came with stand alone controllers so I plan to use them for my side thrusters and try and get a golf cart pedal for my aft thruster. Rick On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >> up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What did Cliff use? >> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >> >> Thanks guys for all the input! >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, >> that one says brushless? >> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >> whose continual >> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >> manufacturers over rate >> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their >> ratings accurate, >> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the >> ON light >> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >> pre-ignition resister >> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Hi all, >> >> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >> >> >> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >> >> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >> >> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >> consider? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 22:38:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:38:52 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02B6EB4C-E428-4115-97AC-6EAF0DF2FAFE@gmail.com> http://m.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TRAXXIS-TROLLING-MOTOR-MAIN-CONTROL-BOARD-PN-2184017-OR-2184027-/371336409933 Standard part that can be ordered just about everywhere. Shows up on eBay quite often. MK part no. is 2184017. Cliff Redus > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> What did Cliff use? >>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>> >>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Alec, >>> that one says brushless? >>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>> >>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>> >>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>> >>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 22:51:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:51:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. Cliff > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> What did Cliff use? >>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>> >>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Alec, >>> that one says brushless? >>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>> >>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>> >>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>> >>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 19 23:38:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 03:38:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. ?Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. ?Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. ?If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 05:04:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:04:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1717929543.3711345.1461108769751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1717929543.3711345.1461108769751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <263011549.4098415.1461143077122.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I mentioned earlier that I wired up my Kelly Controller & no lightscame on. This was because although I had connected up the + & -battery terminals there was another wire I thought was only for activatingthe coil on a switch & as I wasn't using a solenoid switch I didn't connectit.?However it powered up the electronics in the controller.So Kelly good, me bad. They responded to my SOS really quickly.Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Alec,the XDC2460 does not advertise itself as suitable for traction vehicles.I know we aren't technically a traction vehicle, but it may indicate that the controllermight not be suitable for rugged applications. I do like the radio control inputoption on it but with a bit of thought you could implement this on a Kelly controller.I have destroyed a few controllers in my playing round :( . The controller is morelikely to fail than the motor & if you had a dual motor controller then possibly you would have 2 motors down instead of one if it failed.?Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 05:53:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:53:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> Message-ID: Great video Emile. Thanks! On 19 April 2016 at 23:03, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > thanks Emile! > goes well with your very stable 3 axle trailer. > love that familiar engine roaring... > > regards > Antoine > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:27 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my >> submersible. >> >> Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. >> It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. >> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU >> >> >> >> regards, Emile >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 06:34:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 06:34:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <02B6EB4C-E428-4115-97AC-6EAF0DF2FAFE@gmail.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <02B6EB4C-E428-4115-97AC-6EAF0DF2FAFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Excellent, thanks Cliff! On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:38 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > http://m.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TRAXXIS-TROLLING-MOTOR-MAIN-CONTROL-BOARD-PN-2184017-OR-2184027-/371336409933 > > Standard part that can be ordered just about everywhere. Shows up on eBay > quite often. MK part no. is 2184017. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >> up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What did Cliff use? >> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >> >> Thanks guys for all the input! >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, >> that one says brushless? >> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >> whose continual >> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >> manufacturers over rate >> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their >> ratings accurate, >> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the >> ON light >> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >> pre-ignition resister >> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Hi all, >> >> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >> >> >> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >> >> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >> >> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >> consider? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 07:06:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 06:06:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff / Alec, > I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. > It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller if > it doesn't have that function. > Alan > > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. > > > Cliff > >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> What did Cliff use? >>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>> >>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Alec, >>> that one says brushless? >>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>> >>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>> >>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>> >>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 09:08:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 01:08:54 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> Thanks Cliff, I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse" but were only a programable function that enabled you to change from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Cliff / Alec, >> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller if >> it doesn't have that function. >> Alan >> >> >> From: via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >> >> >> Cliff >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >>> >>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> What did Cliff use? >>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>> >>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Hi Alec, >>>> that one says brushless? >>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>>> >>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>> >>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>> >>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 13:40:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:40:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Cliff, > I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse" > but were only a programable function that enabled you to change > from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. > You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse > the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Cliff / Alec, >>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller if >>> it doesn't have that function. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> From: via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>> >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >>>> >>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff Redus >>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What did Cliff use? >>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Alec, >>>>> that one says brushless? >>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>>> >>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 15:22:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & downon all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonablyintuitive to operate?Thanks Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff,I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse"but were only a programable function that enabled you to changefrom forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.?You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reversethe motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reversing is fully integrated. ?See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf ?for analog control. ?0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off.? Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. ?Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. ?Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. ?If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 16:35:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:35:03 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: <37280029.3567297.1461095273200.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> <37280029.3567297.1461095273200.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002501d19b44$1def04a0$59cd0de0$@nl> Hi Alan, The speed controller of the Protuar died . It is replaced by a approx 3,5 Kw hubless thruster like the side motors. Runs now a nice 3 knots on the surface. Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 21:48 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. Thanks Emile, very good. I had heard something about you replacing your rear thruster. Was that the protruar 2hp you replaced. I remember you saying the gearbox was a bit noisy. What did you replace it with. Alan _____ From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:27 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. Hi, A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my submersible. Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU regards, Emile _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 17:20:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:20:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. In-Reply-To: <002501d19b44$1def04a0$59cd0de0$@nl> References: <003901d19a71$8c836ba0$a58a42e0$@nl> <37280029.3567297.1461095273200.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <002501d19b44$1def04a0$59cd0de0$@nl> Message-ID: <1203409779.4409329.1461187253628.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Emile,that is topical that the controller died. I read this in the Robotech manualthat Cliff linked to yesterday. And we discussed this some time ago.Wire Lengths Wire lengths to the motors and from the battery should be kept as short as possible. Longer wires will create increased inductance which will produce undesirable effects such as electrical noise or increased current and voltage ripple. The power supply/battery wires must be as short as possible. They should also be sized appropriately for the amout of current being drawn. Increased inductance in the power source wires will increase the ripple current/voltage at the RoboClaw which can damage the filter caps on the board or even causing voltage spikes over the rated voltage of the Roboclaw, leading to board failure.?? With the long wire runs we have on submersibles maybe we need extra capacitorsbefore the controller. I will have to look at this more closely.Cheers Alan From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. #yiv2355107781 #yiv2355107781 -- _filtered #yiv2355107781 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2355107781 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2355107781 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2355107781 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv2355107781 #yiv2355107781 p.yiv2355107781MsoNormal, #yiv2355107781 li.yiv2355107781MsoNormal, #yiv2355107781 div.yiv2355107781MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2355107781 a:link, #yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2355107781 a:visited, #yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2355107781 p.yiv2355107781MsoAcetate, #yiv2355107781 li.yiv2355107781MsoAcetate, #yiv2355107781 div.yiv2355107781MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv2355107781 p.yiv2355107781msonormal, #yiv2355107781 li.yiv2355107781msonormal, #yiv2355107781 div.yiv2355107781msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781msohyperlink {}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781e-mailstijl17 {}#yiv2355107781 p.yiv2355107781msonormal1, #yiv2355107781 li.yiv2355107781msonormal1, #yiv2355107781 div.yiv2355107781msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781e-mailstijl171 {color:windowtext;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781E-mailStijl25 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv2355107781 span.yiv2355107781BallontekstChar {}#yiv2355107781 .yiv2355107781MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2355107781 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv2355107781 div.yiv2355107781WordSection1 {}#yiv2355107781 Hi Alan, ?The speed controller of the Protuar died . It is replaced by a approx 3,5 Kw hubless thruster like the side motors.Runs now a nice 3 knots on the surface. ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 21:48 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. ?Thanks Emile, very good. I had heard something about you replacing your rear thruster.Was that the protruar 2hp you replaced. I remember you sayingthe gearbox was a bit noisy. What did you replace it with.Alan ?From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:27 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drebbel launch video. ?Hi,?A friend made a video which shows clearly the launch and retrieval of my submersible.Nearly a ?instruction video? how to launch with trailer extension boom.. It was a nust as the slipway is Sandy and uneven.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C618GkveCvU?regards, Emile _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 18:03:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:03:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1209337166.3537603.1461189839713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow. ?It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. ? ?The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high. ?The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water. ?I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. ? ?I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve.I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink. ?Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. ? It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on. ?This way it will come up on its own.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-04-20 at 3.51 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26582 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 18:52:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1209337166.3537603.1461189839713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1209337166.3537603.1461189839713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <313658595.4675414.1461192779189.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Hank,beautiful lake. What about buying, making?or borrowing an anchor winch?You no doubt had something similar in your rov days!The thought came to mind that if it is slightly rough the bobbing action of the boatcould cause your drop tray to release. Or are you using a separate line for that?Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:03 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow. ?It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. ? ?The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high. ?The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water. ?I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. ? ?I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve.I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink. ?Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. ? It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on. ?This way it will come up on its own.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 19:30:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:30:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <313658595.4675414.1461192779189.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <313658595.4675414.1461192779189.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <813110564.3642032.1461195048558.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan,?I picked Sunday early because the winds are SW 5 Km per hr and rainy. ?Also the tray is 60 lbs and is only pulling the ?rope down and unspooling the rope. ?I think there is little chance the tray will tip from waves. ?I will bring spare weights just in case. ?You have proven me wrong before! ? The problem with an anchor winch is it is hard to estimate pulling force and the rope could break or the HP valve could activate sending the sub up fast and possibly hitting the boat. ?The weight is from drag, not actual weight, when I am pulling it up it will coast if I stop and it is heavy to get it moving initially.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 4:52 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank,beautiful lake. What about buying, making?or borrowing an anchor winch?You no doubt had something similar in your rov days!The thought came to mind that if it is slightly rough the bobbing action of the boatcould cause your drop tray to release. Or are you using a separate line for that?Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:03 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow. ?It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. ? ?The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high. ?The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water. ?I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. ? ?I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve.I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink. ?Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. ? It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on. ?This way it will come up on its own.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 19:50:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:50:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost. On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. > Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down > on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably > intuitive to operate? > Thanks Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff, > I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said > "reverse" > but were only a programable function that enabled you to change > from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. > You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse > the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at > http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog > control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in > opposite direction and 2.5v is off. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff / Alec, > I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A > HV Brushed DC motor controller. > It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it > with the controller if > it doesn't have that function. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV > Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would > control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input > signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. > > > Cliff > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. > They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal > relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that > absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered > up while in the garage. > > My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. > This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the > Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm > looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems > to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more > advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel > controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one > can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 20:23:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:23:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57181D6C.9000809@psubs.org> Tractor control. This is one of the reasons I selected the Roboteq controllers, they are programmable in the same way. Roboteq provides a freeware GUI interface with tons of options for programming the control of two motors based upon input parameters. I will be using joysticks instead of foot pedals but I think this is appropriate for a K-sub. Jon On 4/20/2016 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a > hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very > beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the > unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty > commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc > signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and > 0v for full reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels > rock solid. I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input > channel. I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both > the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick > control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the joy still rotary > axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same > signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the > more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your > heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt > the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and > control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC > ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal > thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This > enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the > joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn > the port side. If the foot control is in the neutral position, > then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of > gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this gives at > any speed. > > Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I > am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same > thing at a reduced cost. > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 20:56:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:56:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1486489300.4571079.1461200187377.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Cliff,it was interesting to see the ergonomics of their design with the heelsection for the dual operating option.I had thought you might have gone for two foot pedals & got the tractorsteering from that, but at least you are freeing up one hand. That's cleverthe way you have integrated the joy stick.Are your vertical thrusters operated off your joystick?That 5V analog input fits with the Kelly controller.I am thinking of two foot pedals with a left & right motion for the verticalthrusters similar to the Deep Worker. I think Phil was selling the foot controls,but fear it might be more than you paid.Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls.?This is a hall?effect?potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.? It is very beefy.??http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit.? I am using model number HFP4M17445.? This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control.? The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.? I have really been happy with the unit.? Feels rock solid.? I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.? I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to?both aft horizontal thrusters.?? If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.? When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control.? This gives me great forward/reverse and control.?When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.? This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating?the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the?port side.? If the foot control is in the neutral position, then?rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity.? I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost.?? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & downon all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonablyintuitive to operate?Thanks Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff,I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse"but were only a programable function that enabled you to changefrom forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.?You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reversethe motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reversing is fully integrated.? See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf ?for analog control. ?0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off.? Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.? Each board would control two of the MK101s independently.? Has a lot of flexibility on input signal.? If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:11:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:11:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter what I do with the joystick. 1) Rotating joystick JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in opposite directions to crab) JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") 2) Non-rotating joystick JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern thruster, decreasing to the other Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. Thanks, Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a > hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very > beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the > unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial > grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V > as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I > have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal > into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that > enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis > of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the > joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get > the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the > more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal > the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot > control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy > stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start > increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the > speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to > the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise > direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in > the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about > its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this > gives at any speed. > > Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am > sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a > reduced cost. > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Cliff, >> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >> intuitive to operate? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff, >> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >> said "reverse" >> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff / Alec, >> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it >> with the controller if >> it doesn't have that function. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >> >> >> Cliff >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK >> trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have >> not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but >> it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >> up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What did Cliff use? >> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >> >> Thanks guys for all the input! >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, >> that one says brushless? >> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >> whose continual >> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >> manufacturers over rate >> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their >> ratings accurate, >> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the >> ON light >> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >> pre-ignition resister >> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Hi all, >> >> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >> >> >> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >> >> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >> >> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >> consider? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:19:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:19:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick rotary axis. Rotary axis just rotates the boat. As the foot control moves more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly from 2.5 to 5v. I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers. So after you get past the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the prop. As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move faster and faster. Cliff On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of > a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That > is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back > is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say > the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? > > I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they > can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm > considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can > envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my > focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, > whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter > what I do with the joystick. > > 1) Rotating joystick > JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in > opposite directions to crab) > JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") > > 2) Non-rotating joystick > JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern > thruster, decreasing to the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface > Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing > > In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command > input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any > return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is > there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your > hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with > rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the >> unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial >> grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V >> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I >> have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal >> into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that >> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis >> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the >> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get >> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the >> more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal >> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot >> control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy >> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start >> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the >> speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to >> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise >> direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in >> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about >> its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this >> gives at any speed. >> >> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am >> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a >> reduced cost. >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Cliff, >>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >>> intuitive to operate? >>> Thanks Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Cliff, >>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >>> said "reverse" >>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >>> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Cliff / Alec, >>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it >>> with the controller if >>> it doesn't have that function. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >>> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >>> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>> >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the >>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and >>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) >>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >>> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >>> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >>> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >>> up while in the garage. >>> >>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >>> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> What did Cliff use? >>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >>> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>> >>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alec, >>> that one says brushless? >>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >>> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >>> whose continual >>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >>> manufacturers over rate >>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & >>> their ratings accurate, >>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & >>> the ON light >>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >>> pre-ignition resister >>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >>> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>> >>> >>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>> >>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>> >>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >>> consider? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:23:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:23:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1209337166.3537603.1461189839713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1209337166.3537603.1461189839713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That was wild for it's tranquility! Normally depth tests are stressful things, ALWAYS in worsening weather and with everything going wrong. You need a big boat and a dozen support divers. A spare support boat in case the first one sinks. A humongous big rope, if possible wound onto a winch about three feet in diameter. There's the tic toc of a timer as the sub builder nervously paces the deck. Are you sure there wasn't just a five pound dive weight dangling on that little yellow string? :) Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow. > It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. The launching of both boat > and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front > roller the boat sits on, it is to high. The only tough part is installing > the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water. I have to take it slow and > it is kinda heavy. I have to install and remove the mother each time I > launch and retrieve. > I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve > the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink. Then the rope > will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. > It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even > with heavy welding gloves on. This way it will come up on its own. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-04-20 at 3.51 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26582 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:26:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:26:09 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for anything? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick > rotary axis. Rotary axis just rotates the boat. As the foot control moves > more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly > from 2.5 to 5v. I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly > increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers. So after you get past > the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the > prop. As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move > faster and faster. > > Cliff > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of >> a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That >> is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back >> is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say >> the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >> >> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they >> can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm >> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can >> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my >> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, >> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter >> what I do with the joystick. >> >> 1) Rotating joystick >> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in >> opposite directions to crab) >> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >> >> 2) Non-rotating joystick >> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern >> thruster, decreasing to the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >> >> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command >> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any >> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is >> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your >> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with >> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >>> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the >>> unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial >>> grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V >>> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I >>> have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal >>> into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that >>> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis >>> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the >>> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get >>> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the >>> more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal >>> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot >>> control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy >>> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start >>> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the >>> speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to >>> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise >>> direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in >>> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about >>> its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this >>> gives at any speed. >>> >>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am >>> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a >>> reduced cost. >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Cliff, >>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >>>> intuitive to operate? >>>> Thanks Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff Redus >>>> >>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Cliff, >>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >>>> said "reverse" >>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >>>> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff Redus >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cliff / Alec, >>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating >>>> it with the controller if >>>> it doesn't have that function. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >>>> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >>>> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the >>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and >>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) >>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >>>> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >>>> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >>>> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >>>> up while in the garage. >>>> >>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from >>>> Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was >>>> irritating. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff Redus >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> What did Cliff use? >>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >>>> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>> >>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Alec, >>>> that one says brushless? >>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the >>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >>>> whose continual >>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >>>> manufacturers over rate >>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & >>>> their ratings accurate, >>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & >>>> the ON light >>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >>>> pre-ignition resister >>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton >>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from >>>> Roboteq: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>> >>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>> >>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >>>> consider? >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:27:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:27:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh no, I think I did not understand. You are using ONLY the rotation of the joystick? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for > anything? > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick >> rotary axis. Rotary axis just rotates the boat. As the foot control moves >> more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly >> from 2.5 to 5v. I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly >> increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers. So after you get past >> the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the >> prop. As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move >> faster and faster. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use >>> of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. >>> That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, >>> back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between >>> say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >>> >>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so >>> they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm >>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can >>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my >>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, >>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter >>> what I do with the joystick. >>> >>> 1) Rotating joystick >>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in >>> opposite directions to crab) >>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >>> >>> 2) Non-rotating joystick >>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern >>> thruster, decreasing to the other >>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >>> >>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command >>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any >>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is >>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your >>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with >>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >>>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >>>> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to >>>> the unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty >>>> commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal >>>> with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full >>>> reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I >>>> take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder >>>> logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the >>>> rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal >>>> thrusters. If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both >>>> aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on >>>> the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push >>>> down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back >>>> you tilt the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and >>>> control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder >>>> logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and >>>> decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at >>>> speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter >>>> clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot >>>> control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the >>>> boat about its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much >>>> control this gives at any speed. >>>> >>>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I >>>> am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing >>>> at a reduced cost. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Cliff, >>>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >>>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >>>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >>>>> intuitive to operate? >>>>> Thanks Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Cliff, >>>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >>>>> said "reverse" >>>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >>>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >>>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >>>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >>>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >>>>> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >>>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cliff / Alec, >>>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >>>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating >>>>> it with the controller if >>>>> it doesn't have that function. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >>>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >>>>> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >>>>> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the >>>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and >>>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) >>>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 >>>>> thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have >>>>> an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means >>>>> that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller >>>>> powered up while in the garage. >>>>> >>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from >>>>> Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was >>>>> irritating. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What did Cliff use? >>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >>>>> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alec, >>>>> that one says brushless? >>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the >>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >>>>> whose continual >>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >>>>> manufacturers over rate >>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & >>>>> their ratings accurate, >>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & >>>>> the ON light >>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >>>>> pre-ignition resister >>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton >>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from >>>>> Roboteq: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>>> >>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >>>>> consider? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:37:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <148923887.3656843.1461202634808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,That lake is always like that, very rarely will you have waves, just slow poke fisherman getting their hooks ready on the ramp instead of the parking lot.;-)I will be sure to show the sub on the end of the yellow string on Sunday, ?LOL ? You otta try this alone on a big lake like Slocan Lake, it gets 3 foot swells in a matter of minutes. ?I am set up to abandon the sub and come back for it. ?My wife is coming along but I won't bring her in the boat.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:23 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That was wild for it's tranquility! Normally depth tests are stressful things, ALWAYS in worsening weather and with everything going wrong. You need a big boat and a dozen support divers. A spare support boat in case the first one sinks. A humongous big rope, if possible wound onto a winch about three feet in diameter. There's the tic toc of a timer as the sub builder nervously paces the deck.? Are you sure there wasn't just a five pound dive weight dangling on that little yellow string? :) Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow.? It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. ? ?The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high.? The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water.? I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. ? ?I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve.I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink.? Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. ? It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on.? This way it will come up on its own.Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-04-20 at 3.51 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26582 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:46:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:46:09 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1486489300.4571079.1461200187377.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1486489300.4571079.1461200187377.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a three axis joystick. When the joystick is tilted starboard and port, this generates roll movement using the vertical thrusters. When the joystick is moved forward and backward, the PLC sends the same signal to each of the vertical thrusters which if the boat is moving forward in the water column, caused the boat to pitch down or up. If stationary in the water column, then moving he joystick up and down caused the boat to descend or ascend. On my HMI, I have a button that toggles through different ways of controlling the vertical thrusters. In the flying mode, they are controlled by joystick as described above. I have a second setting that locks out the roll. I have a third setting that takes the vertical thruster control away from the joystick and gives it to a rocker switch for descending and ascending. In this mode, each time the up rocker switch is hit, then I increment the vertical thruster speed trying to ascend. In this mode each time the down rocker switch is hit, the vertical thrusters operate in the opposite direction. So pushing the up button you go up and down button you down. You keep pushing the buttons to get incrementally more and more speed. I have a 2.5 inch spread between my GB and GG when submerged. With 100 lb vertical thrusters, I found I can generate quite a larger rolling moment. I implemented the lock out roll function because some times the roll effect is just to aggressive. The nice thing about PLC and fly wire is that it is very easy to reassign the functions of the three axis joystick and foot control by just rewriting some ladder logic. I have four MK motor controllers, one for each thruster. The analog output module on the plc uses four 0-5v output channels, one to each MK-motor controller. This enables me to operate the thrusters completely independently or coupled in any fashion I want. I love this flexibility of the PLCs. Cliff On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Cliff, > it was interesting to see the ergonomics of their design with the heel > section for the dual operating option. > I had thought you might have gone for two foot pedals & got the tractor > steering from that, but at least you are freeing up one hand. That's clever > the way you have integrated the joy stick. > Are your vertical thrusters operated off your joystick? > That 5V analog input fits with the Kelly controller. > I am thinking of two foot pedals with a left & right motion for the > vertical > thrusters similar to the Deep Worker. I think Phil was selling the foot > controls, > but fear it might be more than you paid. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:50 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a > hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very > beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the > unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial > grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V > as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I > have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal > into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that > enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis > of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the > joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get > the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the > more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal > the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot > control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy > stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start > increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the > speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to > the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise > direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in > the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about > its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this > gives at any speed. > > Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am > sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a > reduced cost. > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. > Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down > on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably > intuitive to operate? > Thanks Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff, > I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said > "reverse" > but were only a programable function that enabled you to change > from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. > You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse > the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at > http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog > control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in > opposite direction and 2.5v is off. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff / Alec, > I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A > HV Brushed DC motor controller. > It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it > with the controller if > it doesn't have that function. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV > Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would > control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input > signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. > > > Cliff > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. > They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal > relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that > absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered > up while in the garage. > > My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. > This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the > Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm > looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems > to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more > advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel > controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one > can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:49:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:49:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Small angle gives small change in control voltage from 2.5v neural position. Large angle give larger change. Max and min values are 5v and 0v. So angle is related to speed of the vertical thrusters. Cliff On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for > anything? > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick >> rotary axis. Rotary axis just rotates the boat. As the foot control moves >> more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly >> from 2.5 to 5v. I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly >> increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers. So after you get past >> the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the >> prop. As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move >> faster and faster. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use >>> of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. >>> That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, >>> back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between >>> say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >>> >>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so >>> they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm >>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can >>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my >>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, >>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter >>> what I do with the joystick. >>> >>> 1) Rotating joystick >>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in >>> opposite directions to crab) >>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >>> >>> 2) Non-rotating joystick >>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern >>> thruster, decreasing to the other >>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >>> >>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command >>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any >>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is >>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your >>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with >>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >>>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >>>> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to >>>> the unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty >>>> commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal >>>> with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full >>>> reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I >>>> take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder >>>> logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the >>>> rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal >>>> thrusters. If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both >>>> aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on >>>> the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push >>>> down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back >>>> you tilt the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and >>>> control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder >>>> logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and >>>> decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at >>>> speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter >>>> clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot >>>> control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the >>>> boat about its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much >>>> control this gives at any speed. >>>> >>>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I >>>> am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing >>>> at a reduced cost. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Cliff, >>>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >>>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >>>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >>>>> intuitive to operate? >>>>> Thanks Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Cliff, >>>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >>>>> said "reverse" >>>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >>>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >>>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >>>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >>>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >>>>> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >>>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cliff / Alec, >>>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >>>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating >>>>> it with the controller if >>>>> it doesn't have that function. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >>>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >>>>> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >>>>> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the >>>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and >>>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) >>>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 >>>>> thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have >>>>> an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means >>>>> that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller >>>>> powered up while in the garage. >>>>> >>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from >>>>> Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was >>>>> irritating. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What did Cliff use? >>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >>>>> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alec, >>>>> that one says brushless? >>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the >>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >>>>> whose continual >>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >>>>> manufacturers over rate >>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & >>>>> their ratings accurate, >>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & >>>>> the ON light >>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >>>>> pre-ignition resister >>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton >>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from >>>>> Roboteq: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>>> >>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >>>>> consider? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 21:50:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:50:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No, I use all three axis when in flying mode. Cliff On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Oh no, I think I did not understand. You are using ONLY the rotation of > the joystick? > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > >> Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for >> anything? >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick >>> rotary axis. Rotary axis just rotates the boat. As the foot control moves >>> more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly >>> from 2.5 to 5v. I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly >>> increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers. So after you get past >>> the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the >>> prop. As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move >>> faster and faster. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use >>>> of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. >>>> That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, >>>> back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between >>>> say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >>>> >>>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so >>>> they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm >>>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can >>>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my >>>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, >>>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter >>>> what I do with the joystick. >>>> >>>> 1) Rotating joystick >>>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >>>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in >>>> opposite directions to crab) >>>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >>>> >>>> 2) Non-rotating joystick >>>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >>>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern >>>> thruster, decreasing to the other >>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >>>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >>>> >>>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command >>>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any >>>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is >>>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your >>>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with >>>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >>>>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >>>>> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to >>>>> the unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty >>>>> commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal >>>>> with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full >>>>> reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I >>>>> take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder >>>>> logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the >>>>> rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal >>>>> thrusters. If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both >>>>> aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on >>>>> the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push >>>>> down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back >>>>> you tilt the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and >>>>> control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder >>>>> logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and >>>>> decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at >>>>> speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter >>>>> clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot >>>>> control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the >>>>> boat about its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much >>>>> control this gives at any speed. >>>>> >>>>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I >>>>> am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing >>>>> at a reduced cost. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cliff, >>>>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >>>>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >>>>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >>>>>> intuitive to operate? >>>>>> Thanks Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>>> >>>>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Cliff, >>>>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >>>>>> said "reverse" >>>>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >>>>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >>>>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >>>>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >>>>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >>>>>> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >>>>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff / Alec, >>>>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >>>>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>>>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating >>>>>> it with the controller if >>>>>> it doesn't have that function. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>>> >>>>>> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >>>>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >>>>>> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >>>>>> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside >>>>>> the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches >>>>>> and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really >>>>>> old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 >>>>>> thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have >>>>>> an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means >>>>>> that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller >>>>>> powered up while in the garage. >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from >>>>>> Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was >>>>>> irritating. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cliff Redus >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What did Cliff use? >>>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>>> >>>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >>>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >>>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >>>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >>>>>> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >>>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >>>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alec, >>>>>> that one says brushless? >>>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the >>>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >>>>>> whose continual >>>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >>>>>> manufacturers over rate >>>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & >>>>>> their ratings accurate, >>>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & >>>>>> the ON light >>>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >>>>>> pre-ignition resister >>>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton >>>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from >>>>>> Roboteq: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>>>> >>>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >>>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >>>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >>>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >>>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >>>>>> consider? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 22:00:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:00:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1486489300.4571079.1461200187377.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't realize you had managed to retain the "flying" mode after the recent mods. For some reason I was thinking they had turned your boat into a more conventional one, but that's excellent, like having two boats in one. The "too aggressive" rolling will probably be fantastic in really clear water. Thanks for the clarifications. On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have a three axis joystick. When the joystick is tilted starboard and > port, this generates roll movement using the vertical thrusters. When the > joystick is moved forward and backward, the PLC sends the same signal to > each of the vertical thrusters which if the boat is moving forward in the > water column, caused the boat to pitch down or up. If stationary in the > water column, then moving he joystick up and down caused the boat to > descend or ascend. > > On my HMI, I have a button that toggles through different ways of > controlling the vertical thrusters. In the flying mode, they are > controlled by joystick as described above. I have a second setting that > locks out the roll. I have a third setting that takes the vertical > thruster control away from the joystick and gives it to a rocker switch for > descending and ascending. In this mode, each time the up rocker switch is > hit, then I increment the vertical thruster speed trying to ascend. In this > mode each time the down rocker switch is hit, the vertical thrusters > operate in the opposite direction. So pushing the up button you go up and > down button you down. You keep pushing the buttons to get incrementally > more and more speed. > > I have a 2.5 inch spread between my GB and GG when submerged. With 100 lb > vertical thrusters, I found I can generate quite a larger rolling moment. > I implemented the lock out roll function because some times the roll effect > is just to aggressive. The nice thing about PLC and fly wire is that it is > very easy to reassign the functions of the three axis joystick and foot > control by just rewriting some ladder logic. > > I have four MK motor controllers, one for each thruster. The analog > output module on the plc uses four 0-5v output channels, one to each > MK-motor controller. This enables me to operate the thrusters > completely independently or coupled in any fashion I want. I love this > flexibility of the PLCs. > > > Cliff > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Cliff, >> it was interesting to see the ergonomics of their design with the heel >> section for the dual operating option. >> I had thought you might have gone for two foot pedals & got the tractor >> steering from that, but at least you are freeing up one hand. That's >> clever >> the way you have integrated the joy stick. >> Are your vertical thrusters operated off your joystick? >> That 5V analog input fits with the Kelly controller. >> I am thinking of two foot pedals with a left & right motion for the >> vertical >> thrusters similar to the Deep Worker. I think Phil was selling the foot >> controls, >> but fear it might be more than you paid. >> Alan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:50 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the >> unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial >> grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V >> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I >> have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal >> into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that >> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis >> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the >> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get >> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the >> more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal >> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot >> control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy >> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start >> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the >> speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to >> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise >> direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in >> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about >> its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this >> gives at any speed. >> >> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am >> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a >> reduced cost. >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >> intuitive to operate? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff, >> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >> said "reverse" >> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff / Alec, >> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it >> with the controller if >> it doesn't have that function. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >> >> >> Cliff >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK >> trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have >> not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but >> it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >> up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What did Cliff use? >> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >> >> Thanks guys for all the input! >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, >> that one says brushless? >> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >> whose continual >> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >> manufacturers over rate >> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their >> ratings accurate, >> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the >> ON light >> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >> pre-ignition resister >> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Hi all, >> >> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >> >> >> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >> >> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >> >> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >> consider? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 22:59:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:59:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller)Forward & backward of the horizontal?thrusters on the forward backward axis &up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis.I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing the joystick to the elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, pushingone joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle handlebars.It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go where".It is a great system for handing to a novice.When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be options withinmodels for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a rotating axis.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter what I do with the joystick. 1) Rotating joystickJS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in opposite directions to crab) JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the otherVertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") 2) Non-rotating joystickJS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern thruster, decreasing to the other Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface? Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. Thanks, Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls.?This is a hall?effect?potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.? It is very beefy.??http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit.? I am using model number HFP4M17445.? This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control.? The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.? I have really been happy with the unit.? Feels rock solid.? I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.? I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to?both aft horizontal thrusters.?? If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.? When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control.? This gives me great forward/reverse and control.?When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.? This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating?the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the?port side.? If the foot control is in the neutral position, then?rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity.? I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost.?? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & downon all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonablyintuitive to operate?Thanks Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff,I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse"but were only a programable function that enabled you to changefrom forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.?You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reversethe motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reversing is fully integrated.? See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf ?for analog control. ?0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off.? Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.? Each board would control two of the MK101s independently.? Has a lot of flexibility on input signal.? If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 20 23:24:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:24:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <148923887.3656843.1461202634808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <148923887.3656843.1461202634808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d19b7d$4c9d2780$e5d77680$@telus.net> Best of luck on Sunday, Hank. I wish I could join you, but will have to wait for summer to get some time off. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Alec, That lake is always like that, very rarely will you have waves, just slow poke fisherman getting their hooks ready on the ramp instead of the parking lot.;-) I will be sure to show the sub on the end of the yellow string on Sunday, LOL You otta try this alone on a big lake like Slocan Lake, it gets 3 foot swells in a matter of minutes. I am set up to abandon the sub and come back for it. My wife is coming along but I won't bring her in the boat. Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:23 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: That was wild for it's tranquility! Normally depth tests are stressful things, ALWAYS in worsening weather and with everything going wrong. You need a big boat and a dozen support divers. A spare support boat in case the first one sinks. A humongous big rope, if possible wound onto a winch about three feet in diameter. There's the tic toc of a timer as the sub builder nervously paces the deck. Are you sure there wasn't just a five pound dive weight dangling on that little yellow string? :) Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow. It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high. The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water. I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve. I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink. Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on. This way it will come up on its own. Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26582 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 21 08:07:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:07:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <000001d19b7d$4c9d2780$e5d77680$@telus.net> References: <000001d19b7d$4c9d2780$e5d77680$@telus.net> Message-ID: <275160229.3758435.1461240462855.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Tim,Thank you, ?Hank On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:24 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv6085993999 #yiv6085993999 -- _filtered #yiv6085993999 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6085993999 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6085993999 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv6085993999 #yiv6085993999 p.yiv6085993999MsoNormal, #yiv6085993999 li.yiv6085993999MsoNormal, #yiv6085993999 div.yiv6085993999MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6085993999 a:link, #yiv6085993999 span.yiv6085993999MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6085993999 a:visited, #yiv6085993999 span.yiv6085993999MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6085993999 span.yiv6085993999EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv6085993999 .yiv6085993999MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6085993999 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6085993999 div.yiv6085993999WordSection1 {}#yiv6085993999 Best of luck on Sunday, Hank.? I wish I could join you, but will have to wait for summer to get some time off. Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 6:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Alec,That lake is always like that, very rarely will you have waves, just slow poke fisherman getting their hooks ready on the ramp instead of the parking lot.;-)I will be sure to show the sub on the end of the yellow string on Sunday, ?LOL ? You otta try this alone on a big lake like Slocan Lake, it gets 3 foot swells in a matter of minutes. ?I am set up to abandon the sub and come back for it. ?My wife is coming along but I won't bring her in the boat.Hank ?On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 7:23 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?That was wild for it's tranquility! Normally depth tests are stressful things, ALWAYS in worsening weather and with everything going wrong. You need a big boat and a dozen support divers. A spare support boat in case the first one sinks. A humongous big rope, if possible wound onto a winch about three feet in diameter. There's the tic toc of a timer as the sub builder nervously paces the deck.? ?Are you sure there wasn't just a five pound dive weight dangling on that little yellow string? ? ?:) ?Alec ?On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: First test was all good, Elementary 3000 tows nice and strait but slow.? It took me 1\2 hr to go about 1.5 -2 miles. ? ?The launching of both boat and sub is also good except I need to make a small change to the front roller the boat sits on, it is to high.? The only tough part is installing the 30 hp motor while the boat is in the water.? I have to take it slow and it is kinda heavy. ? ?I have to install and remove the mother each time I launch and retrieve.I am going to rig up a slide so that when I pull on the rope to retrieve the sub, a tray will tip out the weights that make it sink.? Then the rope will pull on the valve mechanism in case the sub has taken on water weight. ? It is pretty hard on the hands pulling it up with such a small line, even with heavy welding gloves on.? This way it will come up on its own.Hank ?On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4_tO8yzoaE ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 26582 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 21 08:30:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:30:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller) > Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward > axis & > up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis. > I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing > the joystick to the > elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, > pushing > one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle > handlebars. > It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go > where". > It is a great system for handing to a novice. > When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be > options within > models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a > rotating axis. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of > a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That > is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back > is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say > the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? > > I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they > can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm > considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can > envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my > focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, > whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter > what I do with the joystick. > > 1) Rotating joystick > JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in > opposite directions to crab) > JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") > > 2) Non-rotating joystick > JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern > thruster, decreasing to the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface > Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing > > In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command > input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any > return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is > there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your > hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with > rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a > hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very > beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the > unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial > grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V > as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I > have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal > into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that > enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis > of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the > joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get > the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the > more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal > the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot > control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy > stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start > increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the > speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to > the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise > direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in > the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about > its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this > gives at any speed. > > Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am > sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a > reduced cost. > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. > Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down > on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably > intuitive to operate? > Thanks Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff, > I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said > "reverse" > but were only a programable function that enabled you to change > from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. > You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse > the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at > http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog > control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in > opposite direction and 2.5v is off. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff / Alec, > I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A > HV Brushed DC motor controller. > It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it > with the controller if > it doesn't have that function. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV > Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would > control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input > signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. > > > Cliff > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. > They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal > relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that > absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered > up while in the garage. > > My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. > This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the > Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm > looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems > to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more > advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel > controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one > can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 21 15:48:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:48:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43172070.5099489.1461268112953.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,the side to side axis was for controlling my vertical thrusterswhich are fixed (non rotating). I tilted the controller from left to right when using it,so when I pushed the side to side axis to the high side I went up, low side down,this meant I didn't have to think.If I don't go with foot controls I will have a two axis joystick on either side of the hullmounted horizontally?with up is up, down is down etc. so you could put a 5 yearold at the controls & they would be able to use them.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller)Forward & backward of the horizontal?thrusters on the forward backward axis &up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis.I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing the joystick to the elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, pushingone joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle handlebars.It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go where".It is a great system for handing to a novice.When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be options withinmodels for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a rotating axis.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter what I do with the joystick. 1) Rotating joystickJS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in opposite directions to crab) JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the otherVertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") 2) Non-rotating joystickJS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern thruster, decreasing to the other Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface? Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. Thanks, Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls.?This is a hall?effect?potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.? It is very beefy.??http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit.? I am using model number HFP4M17445.? This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control.? The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.? I have really been happy with the unit.? Feels rock solid.? I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.? I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to?both aft horizontal thrusters.?? If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.? When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control.? This gives me great forward/reverse and control.?When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.? This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating?the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the?port side.? If the foot control is in the neutral position, then?rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity.? I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost.?? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & downon all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonablyintuitive to operate?Thanks Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff,I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse"but were only a programable function that enabled you to changefrom forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.?You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reversethe motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reversing is fully integrated.? See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf ?for analog control. ?0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off.? Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.? Each board would control two of the MK101s independently.? Has a lot of flexibility on input signal.? If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 21 21:33:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 01:33:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] password References: <823351217.124550.1461288812015.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <823351217.124550.1461288812015.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon,I am trying to use the Psubs head calculator and it asks for a password for unprotected sheet. ?Can you tell me what to do.Thank youHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 21 21:53:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:53:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] password In-Reply-To: <823351217.124550.1461288812015.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <823351217.124550.1461288812015.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <823351217.124550.1461288812015.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5719840C.7040006@psubs.org> Exactly what calculator are you trying to use. Give me a link or page reference. On 4/21/2016 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Jon, > I am trying to use the Psubs head calculator and it asks for a > password for unprotected sheet. Can you tell me what to do. > Thank you > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 08:24:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:24:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] password In-Reply-To: <5719840C.7040006@psubs.org> References: <5719840C.7040006@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1276895530.222052.1461327847328.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon,Sorry, it is not a Psub calculator. ?I think I need a computer coarse ;-)Hank On Thursday, April 21, 2016 7:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Exactly what calculator are you trying to use.? Give me a link or page reference. On 4/21/2016 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon, I am trying to use the Psubs head calculator and it asks for a password for unprotected sheet. ?Can you tell me what to do. Thank you Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 13:38:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:38:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength References: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 16:21:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 08:21:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571a879f.65e8420a.83896.ffff8f47@mx.google.com> Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. All yours, Sean. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength Hi Sean, I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness. Is there a limit to this? Thank you Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 16:45:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:45:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <571a879f.65e8420a.83896.ffff8f47@mx.google.com> References: <571a879f.65e8420a.83896.ffff8f47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1000780136.465293.1461357926475.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,I don't get it, ?but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ?;-)Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5406237960 #yiv5406237960 -- _filtered #yiv5406237960 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5406237960 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5406237960 {font-family:helveticaneue;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv5406237960 #yiv5406237960 p.yiv5406237960MsoNormal, #yiv5406237960 li.yiv5406237960MsoNormal, #yiv5406237960 div.yiv5406237960MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5406237960 a:link, #yiv5406237960 span.yiv5406237960MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5406237960 a:visited, #yiv5406237960 span.yiv5406237960MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5406237960 span.yiv5406237960EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5406237960 .yiv5406237960MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5406237960 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv5406237960 div.yiv5406237960WordSection1 {}#yiv5406237960 Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car.? All yours, Sean. ?Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength ?Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 19:35:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:35:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly.My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & mostof them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitudeof operating options for various traction vehicles. ?? Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the terminology.?? I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now worksbut my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase problem probably)The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor & application.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller)Forward & backward of the horizontal?thrusters on the forward backward axis &up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis.I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing the joystick to the elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, pushingone joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle handlebars.It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go where".It is a great system for handing to a novice.When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be options withinmodels for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a rotating axis.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter what I do with the joystick. 1) Rotating joystickJS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in opposite directions to crab) JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the otherVertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") 2) Non-rotating joystickJS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverseJS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern thruster, decreasing to the other Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface? Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. Thanks, Alec On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls.?This is a hall?effect?potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.? It is very beefy.??http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit.? I am using model number HFP4M17445.? This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control.? The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.? I have really been happy with the unit.? Feels rock solid.? I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.? I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to?both aft horizontal thrusters.?? If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.? When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control.? This gives me great forward/reverse and control.?When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.? This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating?the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the?port side.? If the foot control is in the neutral position, then?rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity.? I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost.?? On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & downon all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonablyintuitive to operate?Thanks Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff,I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse"but were only a programable function that enabled you to changefrom forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.?You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reversethe motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reversing is fully integrated.? See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf ?for analog control. ?0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off.? Cliff Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff / Alec,I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller ifit doesn't have that function.Alan? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.? Each board would control two of the MK101s independently.? Has a lot of flexibility on input signal.? If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. ? Cliff? On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff.?Is the controller a component you?pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product??I did a?few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. Best, Alec? On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.? They have worked great.? They are potted and rugged.? They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.? This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.? This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. Cliff Redus On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What did Cliff use?He has been through this process recently with a 101.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and?Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced? dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. Thanks guys for all the input! Alec On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,that one says brushless?On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.?? I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continualamp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.?? I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over ratetheir controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings?accurate,however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON lightisn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resisterso this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Hi all, I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file There will be two of them, each driving?a pair of?MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which?is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of?46A). Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 19:53:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 19:53:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan. I've been tossing these suggestions in the direction of a friend and volunteer who is helping with this part of the design. He's a top expert in the field of vessel bridge controls, so what may appear complex to me is hopefully child's play to him. Incidentally, today I went to pick up Shackleton after she was sandblasted and painted. I can't wait to start the assembly, but unfortunately the painter had made the same mistake I did the first time I painted Snoopy, and that was to assume the inside needed far less protection than the outside. The outside looked great but the inside needed a lot of rework. Fortunately he was professional enough to take the feedback and will have it fixed without adding to the bill. Next week I try to pick up again... Best, Alec On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly. > My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & most > of them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitude > of operating options for various traction vehicles. > Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the > terminology. > I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now > works > but my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase > problem probably) > The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor & > application. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use > the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller) > Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward > axis & > up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis. > I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing > the joystick to the > elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, > pushing > one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle > handlebars. > It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go > where". > It is a great system for handing to a novice. > When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be > options within > models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a > rotating axis. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of > a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That > is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back > is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say > the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? > > I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they > can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm > considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can > envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my > focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, > whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter > what I do with the joystick. > > 1) Rotating joystick > JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in > opposite directions to crab) > JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") > > 2) Non-rotating joystick > JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse > JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern > thruster, decreasing to the other > Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface > Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing > > In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command > input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any > return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is > there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your > hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with > rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a > hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very > beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the > unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial > grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V > as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I > have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal > into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that > enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis > of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the > joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get > the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the > more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal > the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot > control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy > stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start > increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the > speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to > the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise > direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in > the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about > its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this > gives at any speed. > > Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am > sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a > reduced cost. > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. > Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down > on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably > intuitive to operate? > Thanks Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff, > I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said > "reverse" > but were only a programable function that enabled you to change > from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. > You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse > the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at > http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog > control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in > opposite direction and 2.5v is off. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff / Alec, > I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A > HV Brushed DC motor controller. > It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it > with the controller if > it doesn't have that function. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV > Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would > control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input > signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. > > > Cliff > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK > trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have > not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but > it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. > They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal > relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that > absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered > up while in the garage. > > My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. > This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. > > > Cliff Redus > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What did Cliff use? > He has been through this process recently with a 101. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the > Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm > looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems > to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more > advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel > controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one > can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. > > Thanks guys for all the input! > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, > that one says brushless? > On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... > HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? > Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller > is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. > I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose > continual > amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. > I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some > manufacturers over rate > their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their > ratings accurate, > however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the > ON light > isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the > pre-ignition resister > so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > Hi all, > > I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over > the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: > > > http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file > > There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq > offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles > the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less > expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous > duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). > > Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to > consider? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 21:05:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:05:10 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <1000780136.465293.1461357926475.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <571a879f.65e8420a.83896.ffff8f47@mx.google.com> <1000780136.465293.1461357926475.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> Hank, Smart is what you do. Get things done. There are always people who know more about something than you. Smart is knowing which one to ask. What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go. Same as a car. Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper. That where you are heading? I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength Hugh, I don't get it, but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ;-) Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. All yours, Sean. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength Hi Sean, I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness. Is there a limit to this? Thank you Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 21:28:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 01:28:28 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, when I purchased my first two mk101, I ordered the mk controller that is powering both thrusters as a stand alone unit. I will be using single mk controllers on the other 4 mk101. While I have not had them in the water yet, I like the ability to run two thrusters with one controller. David Colombo On Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 4:54 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alan. I've been tossing these suggestions in the direction of a > friend and volunteer who is helping with this part of the design. He's a > top expert in the field of vessel bridge controls, so what may appear > complex to me is hopefully child's play to him. > > Incidentally, today I went to pick up Shackleton after she was sandblasted > and painted. I can't wait to start the assembly, but unfortunately the > painter had made the same mistake I did the first time I painted Snoopy, > and that was to assume the inside needed far less protection than the > outside. The outside looked great but the inside needed a lot of rework. > Fortunately he was professional enough to take the feedback and will have > it fixed without adding to the bill. Next week I try to pick up again... > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, >> in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly. >> My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & most >> of them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitude >> of operating options for various traction vehicles. >> Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the >> terminology. >> I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now >> works >> but my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase >> problem probably) >> The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor & >> application. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you >> use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec, >> on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller) >> Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward >> axis & >> up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis. >> I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing >> the joystick to the >> elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, >> pushing >> one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle >> handlebars. >> It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go >> where". >> It is a great system for handing to a novice. >> When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be >> options within >> models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a >> rotating axis. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of >> a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That >> is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back >> is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say >> the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >> >> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they >> can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm >> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can >> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my >> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, >> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter >> what I do with the joystick. >> >> 1) Rotating joystick >> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in >> opposite directions to crab) >> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >> >> 2) Non-rotating joystick >> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern >> thruster, decreasing to the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >> >> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command >> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any >> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is >> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your >> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with >> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a >> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very >> beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the >> unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial >> grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V >> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I >> have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal >> into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that >> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis >> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the >> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get >> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the >> more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal >> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot >> control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy >> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start >> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the >> speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to >> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise >> direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in >> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about >> its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this >> gives at any speed. >> >> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am >> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a >> reduced cost. >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >> intuitive to operate? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff, >> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options >> said "reverse" >> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at >> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog >> control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in >> opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff / Alec, >> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw >> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it >> with the controller if >> it doesn't have that function. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> At Robotshop.com , the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV >> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would >> control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input >> signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >> >> >> Cliff >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK >> trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have >> not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but >> it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. >> They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal >> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that >> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered >> up while in the garage. >> >> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. >> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What did Cliff use? >> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the >> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm >> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems >> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more >> advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel >> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one >> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >> >> Thanks guys for all the input! >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, >> that one says brushless? >> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller >> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller >> whose continual >> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some >> manufacturers over rate >> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their >> ratings accurate, >> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the >> ON light >> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the >> pre-ignition resister >> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Hi all, >> >> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over >> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >> >> >> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >> >> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. >> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still >> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less >> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous >> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >> >> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to >> consider? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 22:10:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 02:10:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> References: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hugh,Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL ?I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for buoyancy.Just fun stuff to think about.Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv8857364888 #yiv8857364888 -- _filtered #yiv8857364888 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8857364888 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8857364888 {font-family:helveticaneue;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv8857364888 #yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888MsoNormal, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888MsoNormal, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 a:link, #yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8857364888 a:visited, #yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888MsoAcetate, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888MsoAcetate, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888msonormal, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888msonormal, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888msochpdefault, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888msochpdefault, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888msohyperlink {}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888emailstyle17 {}#yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888msonormal1, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888msonormal1, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8857364888 p.yiv8857364888msochpdefault1, #yiv8857364888 li.yiv8857364888msochpdefault1, #yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888EmailStyle27 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8857364888 span.yiv8857364888BalloonTextChar {}#yiv8857364888 .yiv8857364888MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8857364888 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv8857364888 div.yiv8857364888WordSection1 {}#yiv8857364888 Hank,Smart is what you do.? Get things done.? There are always people who know more about something than you.? Smart is knowing which one to ask. ?What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go.? Same as a car.? Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. ?Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper.? That where you are heading? ?I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it.? Regards,?? Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength ?Hugh,I don't get it, ?but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ?;-)Hank ?On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car.? All yours, Sean.?Hugh?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength?Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 22:31:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:31:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> Hank, have you looked at oil for buoyancy. That syntactic foam for deep submergence is probably not that light with it's microscopic spheres. On Alvin they told me the foam & the testing of it was about $3 million. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2016, at 2:10 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hugh, > Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL > I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for buoyancy. > Just fun stuff to think about. > Hank > > > > On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Smart is what you do. Get things done. There are always people who know more about something than you. Smart is knowing which one to ask. > > What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go. Same as a car. Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. > > Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper. That where you are heading? > > I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it. > Regards, Hugh > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength > > Hugh, > I don't get it, but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ;-) > Hank > > On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. > All yours, Sean. > > Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength > > Hi Sean, > I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness. > Is there a limit to this? > Thank you > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 22:55:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 02:55:57 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> References: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: And 50% was waste on the floor, after the milling process. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 7:32 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, have you looked at oil for buoyancy. > That syntactic foam for deep submergence is probably not that > light with it's microscopic spheres. On Alvin they told me the foam > & the testing of it was about $3 million. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/04/2016, at 2:10 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Hugh, > Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL > I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I > am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for > buoyancy. > Just fun stuff to think about. > Hank > > > > On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > Smart is what you do. Get things done. There are always people who know > more about something than you. Smart is knowing which one to ask. > > What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go. Same as a car. > Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. > > Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub > to go deeper. That where you are heading? > > I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and > think of it. > Regards, Hugh > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength > > Hugh, > I don't get it, but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a > lot" ;-) > Hank > > On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. > All yours, Sean. > > Hugh > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength > > Hi Sean, > I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found > that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with > thickness. > Is there a limit to this? > Thank you > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 23:01:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:01:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> References: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <215EAD8E-5473-4A05-B3E2-FBB209A640D2@yahoo.com> No forget about oil, just looked it up on these tables. Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2016, at 2:31 pm, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, have you looked at oil for buoyancy. > That syntactic foam for deep submergence is probably not that > light with it's microscopic spheres. On Alvin they told me the foam > & the testing of it was about $3 million. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 23/04/2016, at 2:10 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hugh, >> Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL >> I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for buoyancy. >> Just fun stuff to think about. >> Hank >> >> >> >> On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> Smart is what you do. Get things done. There are always people who know more about something than you. Smart is knowing which one to ask. >> >> What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go. Same as a car. Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. >> >> Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper. That where you are heading? >> >> I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it. >> Regards, Hugh >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength >> >> Hugh, >> I don't get it, but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ;-) >> Hank >> >> On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. >> All yours, Sean. >> >> Hugh >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength >> >> Hi Sean, >> I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness. >> Is there a limit to this? >> Thank you >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 23:02:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:02:58 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> References: <571aca49.690b430a.d265f.ffffc0e7@mx.google.com> <242163648.551214.1461377441761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0F3E12C7-E230-4E95-8FFB-8E75B4793B9F@yahoo.com> Looked oil up on these tables and there isn't much saving. http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_liquids.htm Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2016, at 2:31 pm, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, have you looked at oil for buoyancy. > That syntactic foam for deep submergence is probably not that > light with it's microscopic spheres. On Alvin they told me the foam > & the testing of it was about $3 million. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 23/04/2016, at 2:10 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hugh, >> Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL >> I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for buoyancy. >> Just fun stuff to think about. >> Hank >> >> >> >> On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> Smart is what you do. Get things done. There are always people who know more about something than you. Smart is knowing which one to ask. >> >> What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go. Same as a car. Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. >> >> Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper. That where you are heading? >> >> I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it. >> Regards, Hugh >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength >> >> Hugh, >> I don't get it, but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ;-) >> Hank >> >> On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car. >> All yours, Sean. >> >> Hugh >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength >> >> Hi Sean, >> I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness. >> Is there a limit to this? >> Thank you >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 22 23:23:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:23:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <256175542.3714602.1461103752771.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1186046597.3852829.1461108921075.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> Alec, I remember that your friend had done some work for you in the past. Some time in the future I need to go through the PLC, HMI process as Jon has just done. I can remember a company advertising a package with marine templates for HMI display. This would take a lot of work out of the process if the display animation is already done. your friend is no doubt up with the play on what is available. I am trying to comply to G.L. as close as possible although not going through their classification process. They have about 50 inputs that are required to be displayed. Hugh has probably been through this process & David, Sean & I will be. Be good if we could have a common system that we could duplicate, that can cover all the bases for G.L. & ABS requirements. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2016, at 11:53 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Alan. I've been tossing these suggestions in the direction of a friend and volunteer who is helping with this part of the design. He's a top expert in the field of vessel bridge controls, so what may appear complex to me is hopefully child's play to him. > > Incidentally, today I went to pick up Shackleton after she was sandblasted and painted. I can't wait to start the assembly, but unfortunately the painter had made the same mistake I did the first time I painted Snoopy, and that was to assume the inside needed far less protection than the outside. The outside looked great but the inside needed a lot of rework. Fortunately he was professional enough to take the feedback and will have it fixed without adding to the bill. Next week I try to pick up again... > > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly. >> My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & most >> of them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitude >> of operating options for various traction vehicles. >> Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the terminology. >> I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now works >> but my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase problem probably) >> The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor & application. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back? >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller) >> Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward axis & >> up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis. >> I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing the joystick to the >> elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering, pushing >> one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle handlebars. >> It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go where". >> It is a great system for handing to a novice. >> When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be options within >> models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a rotating axis. >> Alan >> >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward? >> >> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy, whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter what I do with the joystick. >> >> 1) Rotating joystick >> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in opposite directions to crab) >> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob") >> >> 2) Non-rotating joystick >> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse >> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern thruster, decreasing to the other >> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface >> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing >> >> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment. It is very beefy. http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the unit. I am using model number HFP4M17445. This a heavy duty commercial grade foot control. The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse. I have really been happy with the unit. Feels rock solid. I take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel. I have some ladder logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters. If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go. When you push down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot control. This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster. This enables me at speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side. If the foot control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about its center of gravity. I have really been happy with how much control this gives at any speed. >> >> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a reduced cost. >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, >> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls. >> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down >> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably >> intuitive to operate? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> From: via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> >> Thanks Cliff, >> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said "reverse" >> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change >> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires. >> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse >> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> >> Reversing is fully integrated. See page 27 of users manual at http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf for analog control. 0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in opposite direction and 2.5v is off. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Cliff / Alec, >>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller. >>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it with the controller if >>> it doesn't have that function. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> From: via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> At Robotshop.com, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well. Each board would control two of the MK101s independently. Has a lot of flexibility on input signal. If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal. >>> >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters. They have worked great. They are potted and rugged. They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage. This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage. >>>> >>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis. This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff Redus >>>> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What did Cliff use? >>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks guys for all the input! >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Alec, >>>>> that one says brushless? >>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests..... >>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR? >>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's. >>>>> I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual >>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W. >>>>> I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate >>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate, >>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light >>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister >>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM >>>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file >>>>> >>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A). >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 00:15:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:15:36 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1962829472.399044.1461346708756.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4626a993-78e5-4a6e-a048-e328c571a83c@email.android.com> It's not quite that simple. When you have a wall thickness which is quite thin with respect to the mean diameter of the shell (small t/D ratio), we can analyze it using a "thin wall assumption". What this means is that you have the hoop stress and axial stress in the case of a cylinder, or biaxial hoop stress in the case of a sphere, but may safely ignore the radial stress and assume that the hoop stresses are uniformly distributed throughout the cross-sectional area of the shell. As the t/D ratio becomes larger, this is no longer a valid assumption, and you have to account for the shear stress in the radial direction through the wall, owing to the difference in applied stress on the outside versus the inside, which is not a linear distribution. This will change the magnitude and direction of the greatest principal stress. Additionally, the t/D ratio, in conjunction with the material properties, will determine whether the shell will fail first by buckling or by yield. The critical pressure calculation is different for each, so working depth is not a continuous function of shell thickness, but rather has a step change where this transition occurs. If you refer to the 2016 ABS Rules, have a look at Section 6/23.11. Here, shape limits are given for hemispherical heads which place the outer bounds on acceptable t/D ratios. Within that window, the equations shown in 6/23.3 determine the critical yield pressure (P_ys) and the critical buckling pressure (P_es). Depending on the ratio between the two (indicating which failure mode is dominant), there are two different equations for the sphere limit pressure, and then that value multiplied by the usage factor gives you the maximum allowable working pressure. Once you're into the region where strength failures and not buckling dominate, then the upper "limit" would be where t = 0.16 D, where t is shell thickness and D is the mean diameter of the shell. The other limitation is of course the strength of your selected material. The software I wrote that is on the PSubs site handles all of this automatically for spherical shells (and will soon for cylindrical shells as well). Sean On April 22, 2016 11:38:28 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs >and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount >proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 00:31:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:31:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> References: <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 01:13:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 05:13:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> References: <33568F3C-C027-4EC4-8418-567B34A25587@gmail.com> <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Not quite following that Sean,why not have a joystick without return to center function &leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick throughthe PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth limit,I have seen commercial psubs with this feature.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02:I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you touch the controls again.? Manually commanded fully automatic.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 07:58:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 11:58:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <4626a993-78e5-4a6e-a048-e328c571a83c@email.android.com> References: <4626a993-78e5-4a6e-a048-e328c571a83c@email.android.com> Message-ID: <772833372.661713.1461412709030.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,Thank you, I suspected it was not that simple.Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 10:15 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It's not quite that simple. When you have a wall thickness which is quite thin with respect to the mean diameter of the shell (small t/D ratio), we can analyze it using a "thin wall assumption".? What this means is that you have the hoop stress and axial stress in the case of a cylinder, or biaxial hoop stress in the case of a sphere, but may safely ignore the radial stress and assume that the hoop stresses are uniformly distributed throughout the cross-sectional area of the shell. As the t/D ratio becomes larger, this is no longer a valid assumption, and you have to account for the shear stress in the radial direction through the wall, owing to the difference in applied stress on the outside versus the inside, which is not a linear distribution.? This will change the magnitude and direction of the greatest principal stress. Additionally, the t/D ratio, in conjunction with the material properties, will determine whether the she! ll willfail first by buckling or by yield.? The critical pressure calculation is different for each, so working depth is not a continuous function of shell thickness, but rather has a step change where this transition occurs.If you refer to the 2016 ABS Rules, have a look at Section 6/23.11. Here, shape limits are given for hemispherical heads which place the outer bounds on acceptable t/D ratios. Within that window, the equations shown in 6/23.3 determine the critical yield pressure (P_ys) and the critical buckling pressure (P_es). Depending on the ratio between the two (indicating which failure mode is dominant), there are two different equations for the sphere limit pressure, and then that value multiplied by the usage factor gives you the maximum allowable working pressure.Once you're into the region where strength failures and not buckling dominate, then the upper "limit" would be where t = 0.16 D, where t is shell thickness and D is the mean diameter of the shell.? The other limitation is of course the strength of your selected material.The software I wrote that is on the PSubs site handles all of this automatically for spherical shells (and will soon for cylindrical shells as well).Sean On April 22, 2016 11:38:28 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 08:00:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 12:00:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength In-Reply-To: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> References: <43E5C2C3-327E-4360-B042-311DCCD4296B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <813077184.679788.1461412820478.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have found that gasoline is the the lightest practical choice. ?I would however opt for diesel even though it is not as light ?but much safer.Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 8:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, have you looked at oil for buoyancy.That syntactic foam for deep submergence is probably not thatlight with it's microscopic spheres. On Alvin they told me the foam& the testing of it was about $3 million.?Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/04/2016, at 2:10 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hugh,Thanks' I wish sometimes I spent more time thinking LOL ?I am looking for a way to go deeper without the crazy cost for buoyancy, I am looking at different materials for a pressure hull as well as for buoyancy.Just fun stuff to think about.Hank On Friday, April 22, 2016 7:05 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5732946910 -- filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv5732946910 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv5732946910 filtered {font-family:helveticaneue;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910MsoNormal, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910MsoNormal, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 a:link, #yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5732946910 a:visited, #yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910MsoAcetate, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910MsoAcetate, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910msonormal, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910msonormal, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910msochpdefault, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910msochpdefault, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910msohyperlink {}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910emailstyle17 {}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910msonormal1, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910msonormal1, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5732946910 p.yiv5732946910msochpdefault1, #yiv5732946910 li.yiv5732946910msochpdefault1, #yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910EmailStyle27 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5732946910 span.yiv5732946910BalloonTextChar {}#yiv5732946910 .yiv5732946910MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 filtered {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv5732946910 div.yiv5732946910WordSection1 {}#yiv5732946910 Hank,Smart is what you do.? Get things done.? There are always people who know more about something than you.? Smart is knowing which one to ask. ?What I meant was the thicker the metal the deeper you go.? Same as a car.? Further you push the pedal to the metal the faster you go. ?Just seems as though the next thing you would be doing is designing a sub to go deeper.? That where you are heading? ?I think you are amazing the way you get things done while we all sit and think of it.? Regards,?? Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 8:45 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength ?Hugh,I don't get it, ?but I always say "I am not that smart, but I can lift a lot" ?;-)Hank ?On Friday, April 22, 2016 2:21 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, I think you just found the accelerator pedal on the car.? All yours, Sean.?Hugh?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2016 5:38 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] head strength?Hi Sean,I have been studying the head maximum pressure chart on Psubs and found that the pressure rating increases the same amount proportionately with thickness.Is there a limit to this? ?Thank youHank ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 09:00:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 07:00:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using direct or indirect control. With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. Sean On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Not quite following that Sean,why not have a joystick without return to >center function &leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in >running the joystick throughthe PLC with an over-ride on the vertical >thrusters when on the depth limit,I have seen commercial psubs with >this feature.Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > >Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02:I had envisioned a >control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct >thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster >outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are >adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target >setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or >rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at >that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading >or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting >until you touch the controls again.? Manually commanded fully >automatic.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 11:21:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 11:21:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's an interesting concept and has merit, but the question for me is whether the need is important enough to justify additional complexity. I'm trying to follow a very deliberate philosophy of extreme simplicity. The idea is for Shackleton to be shipped around the world to interesting spots, and because I'll be far from my workshop or supplies, absolutely everything has to be simple, field replaceable, and with spares on hand. So for example, I really like the environment monitoring package Jon's been developing. Originally I was doing something similar, and the sub had a touchscreen and everything controlled by a PLC. I still have a box full of all the necessary parts, the ladder logic program I wrote for it, etc. It was done, but I removed it because diving Snoopy changed my mind about the feature/complexity balance. Which is not to say in the future I would never ad any automation back in, particularly since I have all the stuff on a shelf. It's just that if I ever do it would probably be as a redundant ad-on, so that the boat could continue operating if the automation fails. The other option is to build simple redundancy into the design. Whatever my electronic controls and speed controllers end up as, they are going to have a manual bypass that relies on nothing but switches. I was interested to see the Triton subs do that as well, they have a PLC but also a switch labeled "bypass" that turns the whole lot off and returns things to manual control. As an example of the feature/complexity balance, consider the compass. I've got an off the shelf liquid-filled compass mounted outside a viewport, that's it. In my box of automation parts I have a fluxgate compass with a remote sensor that would go outside the hull. There are also way cooler three-axis sensors available, like Cliff uses. But if I went the automation route I would have failure points in the sensor, the cabling, the through-hull, the PLC, the display, and the power supply. I'd need spares on hand for all of those. My objective is to know my heading, but I can't say I have any critical need for roll and pitch, for an autopilot, for course-deviation alarms, or whatever else I could implement taking the automation route. Don't get me wrong, they would be great fun to implement and I encourage it! It's just that the simple solution has more utility for the intended use of my boat. Shackleton's hull is currently being painted, and it took only three hours working alone to take the entire boat apart down to the bare pressure hull for sandblasting. If I went the automation route, much as I'd enjoy it, I'm pretty sure that would not be possible. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go > of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, > leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you > don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before > dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero > output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into > anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your > pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve > it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using > direct or indirect control. > > With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to > be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, > sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure > transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler > velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop > provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling > thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can > automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for > slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. > > This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to > implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, > with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but > when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller > takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain > that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then > requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable > ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary > thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. > > Sean > > > On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Not quite following that Sean, >> why not have a joystick without return to center function & >> leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick >> through >> the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth >> limit, >> I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. >> Alan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: >> I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are >> decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC >> runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the >> setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the >> target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or >> rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that >> point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what >> have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you >> touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 11:52:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:52:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Your point about manual backups is spot on. As things get more complex, the failure probability increases unless specifically designed to provide component, system and/or mission failure redundancy. I'm not going quite that far (not designing the space shuttle), but will have manual overrides and backups - often low tech - in place for all critical functions. You have to be able to get yourself home assuming a complete loss of power, loss of lighting / visibility, etc. Being able to bypass computer control and go to direct proportional control wouldn't be a bad idea if only the controller had failed. Sean On April 23, 2016 9:21:11 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >That's an interesting concept and has merit, but the question for me is >whether the need is important enough to justify additional complexity. >I'm >trying to follow a very deliberate philosophy of extreme simplicity. >The >idea is for Shackleton to be shipped around the world to interesting >spots, >and because I'll be far from my workshop or supplies, absolutely >everything >has to be simple, field replaceable, and with spares on hand. So for >example, I really like the environment monitoring package Jon's been >developing. Originally I was doing something similar, and the sub had a >touchscreen and everything controlled by a PLC. I still have a box full >of >all the necessary parts, the ladder logic program I wrote for it, etc. >It >was done, but I removed it because diving Snoopy changed my mind about >the >feature/complexity balance. Which is not to say in the future I would >never >ad any automation back in, particularly since I have all the stuff on a >shelf. It's just that if I ever do it would probably be as a redundant >ad-on, so that the boat could continue operating if the automation >fails. >The other option is to build simple redundancy into the design. >Whatever my >electronic controls and speed controllers end up as, they are going to >have >a manual bypass that relies on nothing but switches. I was interested >to >see the Triton subs do that as well, they have a PLC but also a switch >labeled "bypass" that turns the whole lot off and returns things to >manual >control. > >As an example of the feature/complexity balance, consider the compass. >I've >got an off the shelf liquid-filled compass mounted outside a viewport, >that's it. In my box of automation parts I have a fluxgate compass with >a >remote sensor that would go outside the hull. There are also way cooler >three-axis sensors available, like Cliff uses. But if I went the >automation >route I would have failure points in the sensor, the cabling, the >through-hull, the PLC, the display, and the power supply. I'd need >spares >on hand for all of those. My objective is to know my heading, but I >can't >say I have any critical need for roll and pitch, for an autopilot, for >course-deviation alarms, or whatever else I could implement taking the >automation route. Don't get me wrong, they would be great fun to >implement >and I encourage it! It's just that the simple solution has more utility >for >the intended use of my boat. Shackleton's hull is currently being >painted, >and it took only three hours working alone to take the entire boat >apart >down to the bare pressure hull for sandblasting. If I went the >automation >route, much as I'd enjoy it, I'm pretty sure that would not be >possible. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you >let go >> of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an >alarm, >> leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, >you >> don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output >before >> dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to >zero >> output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't >crash into >> anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop >your >> pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to >retrieve >> it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was >using >> direct or indirect control. >> >> With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage >to >> be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion >(surge, >> sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure >> transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. >Doppler >> velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop >> provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply >nulling >> thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system >can >> automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate >for >> slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. >> >> This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend >to >> implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the >stick, >> with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, >but >> when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the >controller >> takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to >maintain >> that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth >then >> requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the >variable >> ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that >necessary >> thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Not quite following that Sean, >>> why not have a joystick without return to center function & >>> leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the >joystick >>> through >>> the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the >depth >>> limit, >>> I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: >>> I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are >>> decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, >the PAC >>> runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where >the >>> setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of >the >>> target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed >or >>> rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at >that >>> point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or >what >>> have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until >you >>> touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. >>> Sean >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 14:19:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:19:54 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, I have also been toying with the idea of using a PID loop not for all my maneuvering but just for depth station keeping. I may give this a try as an experiment. My PLC has PID loops built in so it would be easy to try this with minimal ladder logic programming. Initially I was thinking about establishing the depth set point via a user input through my HMI but I kind of like your idea of using joystick to drive to desired depth then taking this depth as the setpoint when the pilot lets the joystick reach its neutral position via spring return. With my two MK101s vertical thrusters, PID controller would pretty easily be able to automatically zero out difference between setpoint depth and measured depth. One other point, if would be very in the PLC code to switch between depth stations keeping and altitude station keeping if bottom was not flat. Two issues come to mind, first is it would not be easy to tune the PID controller and the second is if my ambient pressure gage is accurate enough. I have a 0.25% gage now. I might need a more accurate gage. For altitude PID control, the transmitter I have should work nicely. Cliff On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go > of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, > leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you > don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before > dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero > output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into > anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your > pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve > it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using > direct or indirect control. > > With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to > be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, > sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure > transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler > velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop > provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling > thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can > automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for > slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. > > This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to > implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, > with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but > when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller > takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain > that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then > requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable > ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary > thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. > > Sean > > > On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Not quite following that Sean, >> why not have a joystick without return to center function & >> leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick >> through >> the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth >> limit, >> I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. >> Alan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >> >> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: >> I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are >> decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC >> runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the >> setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the >> target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or >> rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that >> point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what >> have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you >> touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 16:50:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:50:46 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regarding transducer accuracy, rarely does the accuracy specification correspond to variable short term drift. Usually it is the worst case scenario combining absolute accuracy, nonlinearity and hysteresis, but the transducer reading tends to be stable at a given temperature and pressure. In a depth keeping application, it actually isn't critical what the actual depth is unless you're making bathymetric charts or operating close to crush depth. You don't care what the absolute output of the transducer is - only that it is properly representative of changes so that a PID controller can respond appropriately to the error signal when excursions from the setpoint occur. That said, I'd still look at what the transducer cost is for such a critical measurement. Your 0.25% transducer may be fine if the drift is acceptable, and you can also lowpass filter the measurement and/or PID output signal to improve stability (at the expense of response speed). You don't necessarily have to respond to errors rapidly, and your momentum will limit that anyway. I would probably run a depth control loop at something like 20 Hz, versus the 300ish range that I use for things like proportional valve PWM. Integrator resolution is less critical in sluggish systems. In fact, you could possibly get away with an even cheaper transducer if you can accept the response lag. I bought a Honeywell STJE (0.05%) last year for about $1500 CAD. Expensive, but that was for an application where absolute accuracy was important, and you can't do much better in an industrially robust transducer. The standard TJE's are a bit less expensive, and of course there are all sorts of lower cost options available. Your 0.25% transducer might be a good tradeoff. I'd probably be hesitant to go much looser on accuracy though. 1% is probably not accurate enough. Auto altitude is not something I know much about, other than operating by means of a sonar transducer or array / DVL. What sort of error is typical of such measurements? Can a siltout or fish swimming under the transducer cause an erroneous measurement? Filtering could help with that too. I never considered auto altitude because it requires a flat-ish bottom to work - good for seafloor pipeline inspections, but not so much for flying over dropoffs and shipwrecks. Large step changes in your process variable measurement are not good for PID loops. As for tuning, you are correct that it wouldn't be easy. I'd probably shoot for an underdamped system with perceptible but slow integral correction, and forget about derivative entirely. Sean On April 23, 2016 12:19:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, I have also been toying with the idea of using a PID loop not for >all >my maneuvering but just for depth station keeping. I may give this a >try >as an experiment. My PLC has PID loops built in so it would be easy to >try >this with minimal ladder logic programming. Initially I was thinking >about >establishing the depth set point via a user input through my HMI but I >kind >of like your idea of using joystick to drive to desired depth then >taking >this depth as the setpoint when the pilot lets the joystick reach its >neutral position via spring return. With my two MK101s vertical >thrusters, >PID controller would pretty easily be able to automatically zero out >difference between setpoint depth and measured depth. One other point, >if >would be very in the PLC code to switch between depth stations keeping >and >altitude station keeping if bottom was not flat. Two issues come to >mind, >first is it would not be easy to tune the PID controller and the second >is >if my ambient pressure gage is accurate enough. I have a 0.25% gage >now. >I might need a more accurate gage. For altitude PID control, the >transmitter I have should work nicely. > >Cliff > > > >On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you >let go >> of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an >alarm, >> leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, >you >> don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output >before >> dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to >zero >> output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't >crash into >> anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop >your >> pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to >retrieve >> it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was >using >> direct or indirect control. >> >> With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage >to >> be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion >(surge, >> sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure >> transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. >Doppler >> velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop >> provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply >nulling >> thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system >can >> automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate >for >> slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. >> >> This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend >to >> implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the >stick, >> with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, >but >> when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the >controller >> takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to >maintain >> that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth >then >> requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the >variable >> ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that >necessary >> thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Not quite following that Sean, >>> why not have a joystick without return to center function & >>> leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the >joystick >>> through >>> the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the >depth >>> limit, >>> I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>> >>> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: >>> I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are >>> decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, >the PAC >>> runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where >the >>> setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of >the >>> target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed >or >>> rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at >that >>> point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or >what >>> have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until >you >>> touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. >>> Sean >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 18:05:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:05:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571bf1b6.090d620a.abbe.ffff8c8e@mx.google.com> Hi Cliff, I don?t think it is the accuracy you need to worry about but the sensitivity and repeatability of the instrument. Doesn?t matter if it is 153 ft or 147 ft instead of 150 ft as long as the instrument registers another 1 ft up or down. All of which I know that you are aware of. Chs, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, 24 April 2016 6:20 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Sean, I have also been toying with the idea of using a PID loop not for all my maneuvering but just for depth station keeping. I may give this a try as an experiment. My PLC has PID loops built in so it would be easy to try this with minimal ladder logic programming. Initially I was thinking about establishing the depth set point via a user input through my HMI but I kind of like your idea of using joystick to drive to desired depth then taking this depth as the setpoint when the pilot lets the joystick reach its neutral position via spring return. With my two MK101s vertical thrusters, PID controller would pretty easily be able to automatically zero out difference between setpoint depth and measured depth. One other point, if would be very in the PLC code to switch between depth stations keeping and altitude station keeping if bottom was not flat. Two issues come to mind, first is it would not be easy to tune the PID controller and the second is if my ambient pressure gage is accurate enough. I have a 0.25% gage now. I might need a more accurate gage. For altitude PID control, the transmitter I have should work nicely. Cliff On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using direct or indirect control. With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. Sean On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not quite following that Sean, why not have a joystick without return to center function & leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick through the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth limit, I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. Alan _____ From: Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 18:49:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 22:49:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <99B83D11-29EA-44CA-9A67-6423379CFF62@gmail.com> <620928464.3813119.1461123491477.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I wasn't advocating a fixed position throttle, however electric start motor boat throttles?don't have a return to neutral function. I had thought that that was how your set point system was operating.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve it.? I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using direct or indirect control.With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go.This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power.Sean On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not quite following that Sean,why not have a joystick without return to center function &leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick throughthe PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth limit,I have seen commercial psubs with this feature.Alan From: Sean T. St! evensonvia Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02:I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you touch the controls again.? Manually commanded fully automatic.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 23 19:38:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:38:31 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> Some years ago, I had an earlier career with the Canadian Coast Guard, one aspect of which was operating fast response rescue boats. Zodiac Hurricane 733 with twin 150 HP outboards. We lived by one important rule when operating: one hand on the wheel, one hand on the throttle(s) at all times if not in neutral. Our instructor would actually bash our knuckles with whatever was handy if we slipped up in order to ingrain that habit. Now, granted you can get into more trouble at 50 knots than you can at less than 5, but the idea has always stuck with me. I'm not completely against "cruise control" if properly implemented with safety features (e.g. deadman switch). Certainly I can see this being useful for descent / ascent. I have a tougher time seeing the advantages for navigation of a slow speed submersible. Sean On April 23, 2016 4:49:14 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,I wasn't advocating a fixed position throttle, however electric >start motor boat throttles?don't have a return to neutral function. I >had thought that that was how your set point system was >operating.Cheers Alan > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 1:00 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > >Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let >go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an >alarm, leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate >attention, you don't want to waste precious time having to null the >thruster output before dealing with the other problem. Having the >stick(s) spring return to zero output when you let go is just prudent, >so you (hopefully) don't crash into anything when you have to let go in >an emergency, or when you drop your pencil on the floor and throw your >back out when you bend over to retrieve it.? I would employ self >nulling controls regardless of whether I was using direct or indirect >control.With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional >advantage to be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel >motion (surge, sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous >pressure transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or >e.g. Doppler velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a >control loop provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to >simply nulling thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, >the system can automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or >compensate for slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was >when you let go.This is particularly useful in the case of vertical >motion. I intend to implement such a depth controller so that I drive >up / down with the stick, with full range on the stick corresponding to >100% thruster output, but when I let go, the current depth becomes the >setpoint and the controller takes over, commanding the vertical >thrusters as appropriate to maintain that depth. Furthermore, in the >event that maintaining that depth then requires a sustained thruster >output in either direction, the variable ballast system will >automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary thruster output >down to zero and thus conserve power.Sean > >On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Not quite following that Sean,why not have a joystick without return to >center function &leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in >running the joystick throughthe PLC with an over-ride on the vertical >thrusters when on the depth limit,I have seen commercial psubs with >this feature.Alan > > >From: Sean T. St! evensonvia Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > >Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02:I had envisioned a >control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct >thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster >outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are >adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target >setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or >rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at >that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading >or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting >until you touch the controls again.? Manually commanded fully >automatic.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 00:26:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 04:26:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> Message-ID: <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,you certainly have all the experience & talents there to builda decent sub. I guess power boats have dead-man switcheswhich are a good idea if you are on your own.My first boat was a suitcase I found in?my parents?garage, & ripped the lid off.Sailed it down the local creek with 1" of freeboard & got in a lot of *%#! over the wrecked suitcase.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Some years ago, I had an earlier career with the Canadian Coast Guard, one aspect of which was operating fast response rescue boats.? Zodiac Hurricane 733 with twin 150 HP outboards. We lived by one important rule when operating: one hand on the wheel, one hand on the throttle(s) at all times if not in neutral. Our instructor would actually bash our knuckles with whatever was handy if we slipped up in order to ingrain that habit. Now, granted you can get into more trouble at 50 knots than you can at less than 5, but the idea has always stuck with me.I'm not completely against "cruise control" if properly implemented with safety features (e.g. deadman switch). Certainly I can see this being useful for descent / ascent. I have a tougher time seeing the advantages for navigation of a slow speed submersible.Sean On April 23, 2016 4:49:14 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I wasn't advocating a fixed position throttle, however electric start motor boat throttles?don't have a return to neutral function. I had thought that that was how your set point system was operating.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson viaPersonal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before dealing with the other problem. Having the stick(s) spring return to zero outpu! t whenyou let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve it.? I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using direct or indirect control.With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go.This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power.Sean On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not quite following that Sean,why not have a joystick without return to center function &leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick throughthe PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth limit,I have seen commercial psubs with this feature.Alan From: Sean T. St! evensonvia Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02:I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you touch the controls again.? Manually commanded fully automatic.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 09:19:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 07:19:03 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> Priceless. How old were you? Sean On April 23, 2016 10:26:17 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,you certainly have all the experience & talents there to builda >decent sub. I guess power boats have dead-man switcheswhich are a good >idea if you are on your own.My first boat was a suitcase I found in?my >parents?garage, & ripped the lid off.Sailed it down the local creek >with 1" of freeboard & got in a lot of *%#! over the wrecked >suitcase.Cheers Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 09:35:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test References: <1555279633.936622.1461504933884.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1555279633.936622.1461504933884.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We decided to go for the test a day early because the weather forecast was more favourable for Saturday. ?We arrived at the lake at 12;30 and the lake was almost dead calm. ?Imagine my joy! ?we backed the sub into the lake and found the ramp angle not steep enough for my usual slick launch. ?The sub would not float off on its own, I was not going to let that stop this operation. ?I figured I will deal with loading the sub later. ? I pushed the sub off by hand and got her situated and the boat loaded. ?The boat was very heavily loaded with all the spare stuff and emergency stuff I may need. ?I was off! ?after about 20 minutes of towing, my dive site was in sight. ?I calculated it would take 46 min to get to the deepest spot in the lake. ?Without warning the wind went from a gentle cooling breeze to a strong wind and I was in white caps. ?I thought it might blow over so I pressed on for another 10 minutes or so, but finally the following swells were coming over the transom and I was bailing because I could not out run the waves with the sub in tow. ? I decided to turn around and go back to the dock. ?It kept getting worse, if I did not have the sub in tow it would be no big deal. ?I just could not maneuver on the waves and I had no speed. ?The sail was almost submerged when the waves hit the sub, quite impressive really. ?Well I made it back to the dock to find my wife practicing backing up the trailer. ?She needs work LOL. ?Okay,, time to load the sub and try again in the morning. ?The lake is typically the calmest early in the morning. ?I backed into the lake and submerged my bumper hoping to get the depth. ?I emptied the sub of temporary ballast earlier to get her higher. ?I pulled the sub onto the first cross member of the trailer and pulled it on part way. ?I do not have a deck on the trailer, the sub just sits on the cross members. ?Well that is bad! if the launch is shallow. ?The sub tipped forward on the rear cross member as slid forward so my landing skids went under the next cross member. ?Now it was stuck because I have a groovy rake to the front of the skids. ?I decided to secure the sub and pull it out of the lake because I was getting worried about my truck being submerged. ? I dragged it all out and I spent two hrs with help from a guy from Prince George BC ?to get it on the trailer properly. ? ?All this could have been avoided if I left the front idler wheel on the trailer and I could have rolled the trailer in further with a tow strap like I used to. ?I have been spoiled at Premier lake and forgot the misery at other ramps. ?Clearly I need a change to the trailer before I try again. ?We made it home at 10;30 last night with slight damage to the sub and no injuries except to my pride. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 11:02:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:02:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test Message-ID: <20160424080241.2A7589B3@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 11:20:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:20:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test In-Reply-To: <20160424080241.2A7589B3@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20160424080241.2A7589B3@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1366055124.947113.1461511225424.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,That is right, no real harm done. ?All the troubles were my own fault.Hank On Sunday, April 24, 2016 9:02 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,??? What an ordeal !?? At least you made it back with the sub and got it out of the water.? Probably some unpredictable weather in that area.? Around?here the?Channel Islands will get changes really fast.??I'm in?the process of getting my sailboat rigged for any eventually.? ?Brian?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) We decided to go for the test a day early because the weather forecast was more favourable for Saturday. ?We arrived at the lake at 12;30 and the lake was almost dead calm. ?Imagine my joy! ?we backed the sub into the lake and found the ramp angle not steep enough for my usual slick launch. ?The sub would not float off on its own, I was not going to let that stop this operation. ?I figured I will deal with loading the sub later. ? I pushed the sub off by hand and got her situated and the boat loaded. ?The boat was very heavily loaded with all the spare stuff and emergency stuff I may need. ?I was off! ?after about 20 minutes of towing, my dive site was in sight. ?I calculated it would take 46 min to get to the deepest spot in the lake. ?Without warning the wind went from a gentle cooling breeze to a strong wind and I was in white caps. ?I thought it might blow over so I pressed on for another 10 minutes or so, but finally the following swells were coming over the transom and I was bailing because I could not out run the waves with the sub in tow. ? I decided to turn around and go back to the dock. ?It kept getting worse, if I did not have the sub in tow it would be no big deal. ?I just could not maneuver on the waves and I had no speed. ?The sail was almost submerged when the waves hit the sub, quite impressive really. ?Well I made it back to the dock to find my wife practicing backing up the trailer. ?She needs work LOL. ?Okay,, time to load the sub and try again in the morning. ?The lake is typically the calmest early in the morning. ?I backed into the lake and submerged my bumper hoping to get the depth. ?I emptied the sub of temporary ballast earlier to get her higher. ?I pulled the sub onto the first cross member of the trailer and pulled it on part way. ?I do not have a deck on the trailer, the sub just sits on the cross members. ?Well that is bad! if the launch is shallow. ?The sub tipped forward on the rear cross member as slid forward so my landing skids went under the next cross member. ?Now it was stuck because I have a groovy rake to the front of the skids. ?I decided to secure the sub and pull it out of the lake because I was getting worried about my truck being submerged. ? I dragged it all out and I spent two hrs with help from a guy from Prince George BC ?to get it on the trailer properly. ? ?All this could have been avoided if I left the front idler wheel on the trailer and I could have rolled the trailer in further with a tow strap like I used to. ?I have been spoiled at Premier lake and forgot the misery at other ramps. ?Clearly I need a change to the trailer before I try again. ?We made it home at 10;30 last night with slight damage to the sub and no injuries except to my pride. ?Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 11:32:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 11:32:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> Message-ID: <571CE709.9080300@psubs.org> I see it from the perspective of hands-free operation in large open expanses of water. For example, slow cruising in the Florida Keys like Snoopy was doing in http://player.vimeo.com/video/76340636 at 1:00. Seems like there would be a benefit to not needing hands on controls while twisting your neck to enjoy the view. Jon On 4/23/2016 7:38 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'm not completely against "cruise control" if properly implemented > with safety features (e.g. deadman switch). Certainly I can see this > being useful for descent / ascent. I have a tougher time seeing the > advantages for navigation of a slow speed submersible. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 11:41:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:41:49 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <571CE709.9080300@psubs.org> References: <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <571CE709.9080300@psubs.org> Message-ID: In that case I would probably do something to make it easy to drop out of autopilot / cruise, such as having any input to the joystick cancel it. Sean On April 24, 2016 9:32:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I see it from the perspective of hands-free operation in large open >expanses of water. For example, slow cruising in the Florida Keys like > >Snoopy was doing in http://player.vimeo.com/video/76340636 at 1:00. >Seems like there would be a benefit to not needing hands on controls >while twisting your neck to enjoy the view. > >Jon > > >On 4/23/2016 7:38 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >wrote: >> >> I'm not completely against "cruise control" if properly implemented >> with safety features (e.g. deadman switch). Certainly I can see this >> being useful for descent / ascent. I have a tougher time seeing the >> advantages for navigation of a slow speed submersible. >> >> Sean >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 13:51:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:51:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <571CE709.9080300@psubs.org> Message-ID: <571D07A5.8000509@psubs.org> That would be a good idea and easy to implement. My primary power control is going to be with physical joysticks that spring back to center which is a no power-zone. One of the reasons is that on a small monitor such as the 7-inch one I'm using for the SCM it is difficult to get fine grained responsiveness. I could for example create a virtual joystick for the monitor but it simply would not give me the responsiveness that physical devices will. Jon On 4/24/2016 11:41 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > In that case I would probably do something to make it easy to drop out > of autopilot / cruise, such as having any input to the joystick cancel it. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 15:27:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:27:55 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test In-Reply-To: <1366055124.947113.1461511225424.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160424080241.2A7589B3@m0087794.ppops.net> <1366055124.947113.1461511225424.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, thanks for the report. I really appreciate when psubbers report on dives and share both what went right and what went wrong. Glad you were able to recover the boat safely with only minor damage. Mother nature has a way of reminding us that our hobby is inherently dangerous! Cliff On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 10:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > That is right, no real harm done. All the troubles were my own fault. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 24, 2016 9:02 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, What an ordeal ! At least you made it back with the sub and got > it out of the water. Probably some unpredictable weather in that area. > Around here the Channel Islands will get changes really fast. I'm in the > process of getting my sailboat rigged for any eventually. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:35:33 +0000 (UTC) > > We decided to go for the test a day early because the weather forecast was > more favourable for Saturday. We arrived at the lake at 12;30 and the lake > was almost dead calm. Imagine my joy! we backed the sub into the lake and > found the ramp angle not steep enough for my usual slick launch. The sub > would not float off on its own, I was not going to let that stop this > operation. I figured I will deal with loading the sub later. I pushed > the sub off by hand and got her situated and the boat loaded. The boat was > very heavily loaded with all the spare stuff and emergency stuff I may > need. I was off! after about 20 minutes of towing, my dive site was in > sight. I calculated it would take 46 min to get to the deepest spot in the > lake. Without warning the wind went from a gentle cooling breeze to a > strong wind and I was in white caps. I thought it might blow over so I > pressed on for another 10 minutes or so, but finally the following swells > were coming over the transom and I was bailing because I could not out run > the waves with the sub in tow. I decided to turn around and go back to > the dock. It kept getting worse, if I did not have the sub in tow it would > be no big deal. I just could not maneuver on the waves and I had no > speed. The sail was almost submerged when the waves hit the sub, quite > impressive really. Well I made it back to the dock to find my wife > practicing backing up the trailer. She needs work LOL. Okay,, time to > load the sub and try again in the morning. The lake is typically the > calmest early in the morning. I backed into the lake and submerged my > bumper hoping to get the depth. I emptied the sub of temporary ballast > earlier to get her higher. I pulled the sub onto the first cross member of > the trailer and pulled it on part way. I do not have a deck on the > trailer, the sub just sits on the cross members. Well that is bad! if the > launch is shallow. The sub tipped forward on the rear cross member as slid > forward so my landing skids went under the next cross member. Now it was > stuck because I have a groovy rake to the front of the skids. > I decided to secure the sub and pull it out of the lake because I was > getting worried about my truck being submerged. I dragged it all out and > I spent two hrs with help from a guy from Prince George BC to get it on > the trailer properly. All this could have been avoided if I left the > front idler wheel on the trailer and I could have rolled the trailer in > further with a tow strap like I used to. I have been spoiled at Premier > lake and forgot the misery at other ramps. Clearly I need a change to the > trailer before I try again. We made it home at 10;30 last night with > slight damage to the sub and no injuries except to my pride. > Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 15:37:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:37:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <61500845-D334-40AC-827F-D33B882FF2F3@yahoo.com> <26FF2E51-9F1C-46B2-9112-C6097059C86B@gmail.com> <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good points, all. Psubs for me is a hobby. $1500 for a pressure transmitter is low likelihood given oil price of $40/bbl. When the oil price goes back up, my psub budget will go up as well. As to error for typical altitude measurement, I use a sounder, and it seem to be quite accurate but my assessment is purely subjective as I don't have hard data on the accuracy. As a starting point I may give your suggestion on the PID setup (underdamped system with perceptible but slow integral correction, and forget about derivative entirely) a try. cliff On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Regarding transducer accuracy, rarely does the accuracy specification > correspond to variable short term drift. Usually it is the worst case > scenario combining absolute accuracy, nonlinearity and hysteresis, but the > transducer reading tends to be stable at a given temperature and pressure. > In a depth keeping application, it actually isn't critical what the actual > depth is unless you're making bathymetric charts or operating close to > crush depth. You don't care what the absolute output of the transducer is - > only that it is properly representative of changes so that a PID controller > can respond appropriately to the error signal when excursions from the > setpoint occur. That said, I'd still look at what the transducer cost is > for such a critical measurement. Your 0.25% transducer may be fine if the > drift is acceptable, and you can also lowpass filter the measurement and/or > PID output signal to improve stability (at the expense of response sp! > eed). You don't necessarily have to respond to errors rapidly, and your > momentum will limit that anyway. I would probably run a depth control loop > at something like 20 Hz, versus the 300ish range that I use for things like > proportional valve PWM. Integrator resolution is less critical in sluggish > systems. In fact, you could possibly get away with an even cheaper > transducer if you can accept the response lag. > > I bought a Honeywell STJE (0.05%) last year for about $1500 CAD. > Expensive, but that was for an application where absolute accuracy was > important, and you can't do much better in an industrially robust > transducer. The standard TJE's are a bit less expensive, and of course > there are all sorts of lower cost options available. Your 0.25% transducer > might be a good tradeoff. I'd probably be hesitant to go much looser on > accuracy though. 1% is probably not accurate enough. > > Auto altitude is not something I know much about, other than operating by > means of a sonar transducer or array / DVL. What sort of error is typical > of such measurements? Can a siltout or fish swimming under the transducer > cause an erroneous measurement? Filtering could help with that too. I > never considered auto altitude because it requires a flat-ish bottom to > work - good for seafloor pipeline inspections, but not so much for flying > over dropoffs and shipwrecks. Large step changes in your process variable > measurement are not good for PID loops. > > As for tuning, you are correct that it wouldn't be easy. I'd probably > shoot for an underdamped system with perceptible but slow integral > correction, and forget about derivative entirely. > > Sean > > > On April 23, 2016 12:19:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, I have also been toying with the idea of using a PID loop not for >> all my maneuvering but just for depth station keeping. I may give this a >> try as an experiment. My PLC has PID loops built in so it would be easy to >> try this with minimal ladder logic programming. Initially I was thinking >> about establishing the depth set point via a user input through my HMI but >> I kind of like your idea of using joystick to drive to desired depth then >> taking this depth as the setpoint when the pilot lets the joystick reach >> its neutral position via spring return. With my two MK101s vertical >> thrusters, PID controller would pretty easily be able to automatically zero >> out difference between setpoint depth and measured depth. One other point, >> if would be very in the PLC code to switch between depth stations keeping >> and altitude station keeping if bottom was not flat. Two issues come to >> mind, first is it would not be easy to tune the PID controller and the >> seco! nd is if my ambient pressure gage is accurate enough. I have a 0.25% >> gage now. I might need a more accurate gage. For altitude PID control, >> the transmitter I have should work nicely. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Part safety, part allowing for future upgrades. In my mind, if you let >>> go of the controls, the vessel should stop, period. If you have an alarm, >>> leak, fire or something else that demands your immediate attention, you >>> don't want to waste precious time having to null the thruster output before >>> dealing with the other problem. Hav! ing the stick(s) spring return to zero >>> output when you let go is just prudent, so you (hopefully) don't crash into >>> anything when you have to let go in an emergency, or when you drop your >>> pencil on the floor and throw your back out when you bend over to retrieve >>> it. I would employ self nulling controls regardless of whether I was using >>> direct or indirect control. >>> >>> With the indirect scheme I proposed, there is an additional advantage to >>> be gained in the presence of sensing mechanisms for vessel motion (surge, >>> sway, heave, yaw, roll and pitch) such as the ubiquitous pressure >>> transducer for depth, gyro/fluxgate compass for heading, or e.g. Doppler >>> velocity log for over bottom motion. In these cases, a control loop >>> provides the ability to null vessel motion, as opposed to simply nulling >>> thruster output, so that if you let go of the controls, the system can >>> automatically apply reverse thrust to cancel headway or compensate for >>> slight currents etc. to keep the vessel where it was when you let go. >>> >>> This is particularly useful in the case of vertical motion. I intend to >>> implement such a depth controller so that I drive up / down with the stick, >>> with full range on the stick corresponding to 100% thruster output, but >>> when I let go, the current depth becomes the setpoint and the controller >>> takes over, commanding the vertical thrusters as appropriate to maintain >>> that depth. Furthermore, in the event that maintaining that depth then >>> requires a sustained thruster output in either direction, the variable >>> ballast system will automatically adjust in order to bring that necessary >>> thruster output down to zero and thus conserve power. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On April 22, 2016 11:13:19 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Not quite following that Sean, >>>> why not have a joystick without return to center function & >>>> leave it on that setting? I can see the sense in running the joystick >>>> through >>>> the PLC with an over-ride on the vertical thrusters when on the depth >>>> limit, >>>> I have seen commercial psubs with this feature. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Sean T. St! evenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 4:31 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers >>>> >>>> Late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02: >>>> I had envisioned a control scheme whereby the joystick inputs are >>>> decoupled from direct thruster / ballast control output. Instead, the PAC >>>> runs the thruster outputs on the basis of PID control loops, where the >>>> setpoints are adjusted by the pilot controls. Thus, the ramp rate of the >>>> target setpoint is dependent on how far e.g. the joystick is pushed or >>>> rotated, but on letting go, the stick springs back to center, and at that >>>> point the setpoint is overwritten with the current depth, heading or what >>>> have you, and the system automatically maintains that setting until you >>>> touch the controls again. Manually commanded fully automatic. >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 15:55:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:55:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> References: <501896749.4249134.1461180150001.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> Message-ID: Forty. Hehe, couldn't resist! No worries, Alan's a friend. Alec On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Priceless. How old were you? > > Sean > > > On April 23, 2016 10:26:17 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >Sean,you certainly have all the experience & talents there to builda > >decent sub. I guess power boats have dead-man switcheswhich are a good > >idea if you are on your own.My first boat was a suitcase I found in my > >parents garage, & ripped the lid off.Sailed it down the local creek > >with 1" of freeboard & got in a lot of *%#! over the wrecked > >suitcase.Cheers Alan > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 15:59:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:59:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: References: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> Message-ID: <571D25B0.8030702@psubs.org> Well if any of us are missing luggage at the next convention we'll know who to question. :) On 4/24/2016 3:55 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Forty. Hehe, couldn't resist! No worries, Alan's a friend. > > Alec > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 16:02:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:02:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test In-Reply-To: <1555279633.936622.1461504933884.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1555279633.936622.1461504933884.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1555279633.936622.1461504933884.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, Hank! We spend so many hours building and so few operating these little boats, I really enjoy getting these dive reports, and particularly ones that provide a dose of reality to our dreams. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > We decided to go for the test a day early because the weather forecast was > more favourable for Saturday. We arrived at the lake at 12;30 and the lake > was almost dead calm. Imagine my joy! we backed the sub into the lake and > found the ramp angle not steep enough for my usual slick launch. The sub > would not float off on its own, I was not going to let that stop this > operation. I figured I will deal with loading the sub later. I pushed > the sub off by hand and got her situated and the boat loaded. The boat was > very heavily loaded with all the spare stuff and emergency stuff I may > need. I was off! after about 20 minutes of towing, my dive site was in > sight. I calculated it would take 46 min to get to the deepest spot in the > lake. Without warning the wind went from a gentle cooling breeze to a > strong wind and I was in white caps. I thought it might blow over so I > pressed on for another 10 minutes or so, but finally the following swells > were coming over the transom and I was bailing because I could not out run > the waves with the sub in tow. I decided to turn around and go back to > the dock. It kept getting worse, if I did not have the sub in tow it would > be no big deal. I just could not maneuver on the waves and I had no > speed. The sail was almost submerged when the waves hit the sub, quite > impressive really. Well I made it back to the dock to find my wife > practicing backing up the trailer. She needs work LOL. Okay,, time to > load the sub and try again in the morning. The lake is typically the > calmest early in the morning. I backed into the lake and submerged my > bumper hoping to get the depth. I emptied the sub of temporary ballast > earlier to get her higher. I pulled the sub onto the first cross member of > the trailer and pulled it on part way. I do not have a deck on the > trailer, the sub just sits on the cross members. Well that is bad! if the > launch is shallow. The sub tipped forward on the rear cross member as slid > forward so my landing skids went under the next cross member. Now it was > stuck because I have a groovy rake to the front of the skids. > I decided to secure the sub and pull it out of the lake because I was > getting worried about my truck being submerged. I dragged it all out and > I spent two hrs with help from a guy from Prince George BC to get it on > the trailer properly. All this could have been avoided if I left the > front idler wheel on the trailer and I could have rolled the trailer in > further with a tow strap like I used to. I have been spoiled at Premier > lake and forgot the misery at other ramps. Clearly I need a change to the > trailer before I try again. We made it home at 10;30 last night with > slight damage to the sub and no injuries except to my pride. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 16:26:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:26:38 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <571D25B0.8030702@psubs.org> References: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> <571D25B0.8030702@psubs.org> Message-ID: <441229de-39ab-4e51-8b77-9aeace70d917@email.android.com> I was eyeing the Pelican ProGear Elite luggage cases recently to potentially replace my deteriorating luggage - like the Pelican equipment cases, but intended for general travel, and consequently lighter so you don't get nailed on weight limits. (I think my 1650 cases are almost 30 lbs empty). Anyway, those would be perfect for emergency rafting... Sean On April 24, 2016 1:59:44 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Well if any of us are missing luggage at the next convention we'll know > >who to question. :) > > >On 4/24/2016 3:55 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Forty. Hehe, couldn't resist! No worries, Alan's a friend. >> >> Alec >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 17:17:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:17:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] deep test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579654611.1026998.1461532622014.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I enjoy reporting on my successes ?and my failures, I am equally proud of the failures, a failure means your trying. ?Hank Hank On Sunday, April 24, 2016 2:02 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for sharing,?Hank! We spend so many hours building and so few operating these little boats, I really enjoy getting these dive reports, and particularly ones that provide a dose of?reality to our dreams. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We decided to go for the test a day early because the weather forecast was more favourable for Saturday.? We arrived at the lake at 12;30 and the lake was almost dead calm.? Imagine my joy! ?we backed the sub into the lake and found the ramp angle not steep enough for my usual slick launch.? The sub would not float off on its own, I was not going to let that stop this operation.? I figured I will deal with loading the sub later. ? I pushed the sub off by hand and got her situated and the boat loaded.? The boat was very heavily loaded with all the spare stuff and emergency stuff I may need.? I was off! ?after about 20 minutes of towing, my dive site was in sight.? I calculated it would take 46 min to get to the deepest spot in the lake.? Without warning the wind went from a gentle cooling breeze to a strong wind and I was in white caps.? I thought it might blow over so I pressed on for another 10 minutes or so, but finally the following swells were coming over the transom and I was bailing because I could not out run the waves with the sub in tow. ? I decided to turn around and go back to the dock.? It kept getting worse, if I did not have the sub in tow it would be no big deal.? I just could not maneuver on the waves and I had no speed.? The sail was almost submerged when the waves hit the sub, quite impressive really.? Well I made it back to the dock to find my wife practicing backing up the trailer.? She needs work LOL.? Okay,, time to load the sub and try again in the morning.? The lake is typically the calmest early in the morning.? I backed into the lake and submerged my bumper hoping to get the depth.? I emptied the sub of temporary ballast earlier to get her higher.? I pulled the sub onto the first cross member of the trailer and pulled it on part way.? I do not have a deck on the trailer, the sub just sits on the cross members.? Well that is bad! if the launch is shallow.? The sub tipped forward on the rear cross member as slid forward so my landing skids went under the next cross member.? Now it was stuck because I have a groovy rake to the front of the skids. ?I decided to secure the sub and pull it out of the lake because I was getting worried about my truck being submerged. ? I dragged it all out and I spent two hrs with help from a guy from Prince George BC ?to get it on the trailer properly. ? ?All this could have been avoided if I left the front idler wheel on the trailer and I could have rolled the trailer in further with a tow strap like I used to.? I have been spoiled at Premier lake and forgot the misery at other ramps.? Clearly I need a change to the trailer before I try again.? We made it home at 10;30 last night with slight damage to the sub and no injuries except to my pride. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 18:06:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 22:06:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <441229de-39ab-4e51-8b77-9aeace70d917@email.android.com> References: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> <571D25B0.8030702@psubs.org> <441229de-39ab-4e51-8b77-9aeace70d917@email.android.com> Message-ID: <531218465.1318427.1461535568878.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I was probably between?5 & 7.Glad Alec chimed in because I was almost temptedto post this video when he was expounding his K.I.S.S. philosophywith regard to controllers. :)Alanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers I was eyeing the Pelican ProGear Elite luggage cases recently to potentially replace my deteriorating luggage - like the Pelican equipment cases, but intended for general travel, and consequently lighter so you don't get nailed on weight limits. (I think my 1650 cases are almost 30 lbs empty).? Anyway, those would be perfect for emergency rafting...Sean On April 24, 2016 1:59:44 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Well if any of us are missing luggage at the next convention we'll know who to question. :) On 4/24/2016 3:55 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Forty. Hehe, couldn't resist! No worries, Alan's a friend. Alec Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 24 20:06:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:06:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers In-Reply-To: <531218465.1318427.1461535568878.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <82675784.4604378.1461207584113.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1462503269.635844.1461368150400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0E087D89-F36E-484D-8115-97F492A94DEF@yahoo.com> <594d6b00-04fb-4a01-b830-78f9de267d4f@email.android.com> <1731325969.741410.1461388399306.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <580646106.999695.1461451754488.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55e804d5-d3fb-4500-a36e-7a62e6977f12@email.android.com> <239409884.1034787.1461471977179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5c661e2d-f9ce-42fa-8332-8f94ee4308f6@email.android.com> <571D25B0.8030702@psubs.org> <441229de-39ab-4e51-8b77-9aeace70d917@email.android.com> <531218465.1318427.1461535568878.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That was totally brilliant, I loved it! I should rename the new sub "buggy" or something. :) Alec On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I was probably between 5 & 7. > Glad Alec chimed in because I was almost tempted > to post this video when he was expounding his K.I.S.S. philosophy > with regard to controllers. :) > Alan > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 8:26 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers > > I was eyeing the Pelican ProGear Elite luggage cases recently to > potentially replace my deteriorating luggage - like the Pelican equipment > cases, but intended for general travel, and consequently lighter so you > don't get nailed on weight limits. (I think my 1650 cases are almost 30 lbs > empty). Anyway, those would be perfect for emergency rafting... > Sean > > > On April 24, 2016 1:59:44 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Well if any of us are missing luggage at the next convention we'll know > who to question. :) > > > On 4/24/2016 3:55 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Forty. Hehe, couldn't resist! No worries, Alan's a friend. > > Alec > > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 15:05:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:05:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Perry thrusters References: <309035998.2188538.1461697539098.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <309035998.2188538.1461697539098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Vance,I bought these Perry thrusters from Steve and he thinks they are 36V DC ?and I am not so sure. ?The internal wiring seems ?light to me for 36V ? Do you recall what voltage they might be?Thanks'Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 15:50:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:50:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives In-Reply-To: References: <1908961721.1990379.1460499933405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congratulations on reaching sea trials Antoine! ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 6:03 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > thanks Alan, > > currents are too strong to arrive in Cherbourg, however I would love to > have the sub shown at the museum there after the trip. There were ok for a > temporary exhibit with little conference but I probably need to ask them > again. > > regards > Antoine > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Wow, fantastic Antoine, congratulations. >> Love those detailed reports with the good & the bad. >> Emile was the right person to have on the project, he thinks outside the >> box. >> The speed you are getting is faster than I thought. >> Did you consider crossing to Cherbourg (like the Titanic) & getting the >> submarine museum involved >> or are the currents too strong up there? >> Cheers Alan >> P.S. >> In case anyone misses it, this TV news item from your facebook page is >> very good. >> Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche >> en p?dalant dans un sous-marin >> >> >> Le Journal du week-end - Inspir?s de Tintin, ils vont traverser La Manche >> e... >> Traverser La Manche ? 2 km/h ? l'aide de leurs mollets, c'est le projet >> fou de deux polytechniciens. D?s... >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:27 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pilot fish first dives >> >> Hello Psubbers, >> Pilot Fish sub has now made its first dives, >> What a feeling to live this for real after having imagined it for years! >> seeing the water fully covering the dome is quite a dramatic view. >> >> at last i feel like a real psubber, after having been on this group >> feeling like a junior kid for ten years... thanks to you all, this project >> would not be anywhere near it is without your precious advice! >> >> some pics and movies can be found at >> >> https://www.facebook.com/Projet-Poisson-Pilote-Pilot-Fish-Project-294329844027226/ >> >> The tests went well overall. we were quite anxious as there were many >> systems to be tested, some with quite original features. Launching the sub >> with the trailer and an extension rope was the first unknown. Hopefully >> Emile came from Amsterdam to help us out. Techno diving lent us some diver >> phones, and the local dive club helped out which is good for a first dive. >> >> First day we stayed in the harbour checking buoyancy. We were a bit >> heavier and nose heavy than anticipated, so we adjusted for this by >> removing some solid ballast. We had also a bit of air exiting our emergency >> regulators so we figured we should add an isolation valve upstream that >> regulator to prevent such events increasing the pressure of the cabin. >> once MBT emptied we tried bringing in water into our bladder to be >> neutral, but I soon realized I had forgotten to remove a little plastic cap >> protecting the threaded seawater intake outside when prepping the sub. It >> would be a hard reach to remove even by a diver from outside as it was >> located inside the tail fairing between oxy bottles. >> All the tv crews were also there waiting to film our first dive..., we >> had like 4 go pros and 2 microphones inside the sub recording, and diver >> cam man, a towing boat in a small harbour trying to keep us away from other >> boats, some people watching, and for whatever reason I wanted to control >> most of the tasks inside the sub, leaving michael my copilot only pedaling. >> So quite a lot of multitasking for a first dive! I would advise to do first >> dives in a quiet place first! >> After thinking hard about whether the cap was threaded or not, we decided >> we should try pumping against it with our manual bilge pump. It did not >> work initially as our low pressure circuit was full with air so the pumping >> was not very efficient. So we poured water from our drinking bottle into it >> and pumped again and this time when reversing the circuit, water came in so >> we had managed to kick the cap out and we finally started diving. By the >> way, this was the very first time we tested our bilge pump, and it visibly >> worked... >> Having done already several cycles of ballast inflation to adjust solid >> ballast we did not have enough air to exit the harbour in confidence >> (although we had plumbed our ballasts to allow divers to inflate our >> ballasts with direct system connection, which turned out quite useful). so >> we stayed in, only diving to 1m as the bottom 2m of the lake harbour were >> covered by very long sea weed on which we were sort of floating. >> >> The next day we went out for a tow then dives in 3 to 5 m water depth. We >> could then check most systems, which worked as anticipated. the task >> sharing with the pedaller became obvious: pedaller pedals, and takes care >> of life support and MBT upon instruction from the pilot, the pilot does the >> rest. We would deflate the ballasts, which turned out quite stable despite >> the saddle shape. Then we would bring in seawater to fully cover the dome >> to get neutral buoyancy, then pedal downwards, using the trim tray on >> rollers beneath the pilot seat. The first surfacing with Emile as a pilot >> was quite impressive by inflating the ballasts. Nobody filmed it but it >> felt like we raced upwards with steep inclination. >> We did another dive with Michael on the same day. We could check oxy >> consumption, really sober, 0.75L/mn at rest for us two, and 2L/mn at >> cruising pedaling level. The temperature and humidity did not shoot up as >> we feared when pedalling to the sweating remained quite efficient and >> confortable, despite all the body heat. Quite happy too with the scrubber >> as we had 0.15-0.2 % CO2 only. >> Pedaling resistance lower than feared, we ll see next time if we try a >> more agressive pitch. Our blade design may be a bit basic but the speed >> looked around the 3km/hr expected. The friction in the drive train and prop >> shaft seal is impressively low. we can testify that the water lubricated >> bearing for the shaft outside the hull works well when in the water... >> During that second dive a funny thing happened: we beached on the seabed >> without noticing, as the seabed was moving up, and did not have the >> altitude sounder installed yet and the ground felt further below due to >> optical distortion in the dome. Then we used the bow thruster which sucked >> sand inside the bow fairing (I had not cut the definitive thruster intake >> ports in the fairing) which kept us landed. We kept pedalling without >> understanding why we stopped moving, thinking we may have got caught in >> something or the prop blades may have loosened?. That was when the surface >> boat told us they had an engine pb so we came up gently with ballasts and >> the diver told us we had landed and was wondering why we kept pedalling!! >> >> We will do another series to check the speed accurately in deeper water >> depth area. we will also do longer dives to check the scrubber capacity, >> and if all goes well spend the night underwater for a 30hours long dive. >> >> regards, >> Antoine >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 15:57:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:57:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: <1816914619.1366480.1460751651331.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) > > Cheers, > Steve > On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Alec, >> enjoyed that. Your other passion. >> When you have been on this site for years >> it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. >> I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic >> >> Hey guys, >> >> I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. >> However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this >> video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a >> fun moment with my friends. >> >> https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 16:11:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:11:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: <1816914619.1366480.1460751651331.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a tight spot (but still aiming for that). I'll be posting photos as I go. She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... this can't last. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's > hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Alec, >>> enjoyed that. Your other passion. >>> When you have been on this site for years >>> it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. >>> I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic >>> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines >>> here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in >>> this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to >>> share a fun moment with my friends. >>> >>> https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 16:24:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:24:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) ?Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a tight spot (but still aiming for that).? I'll be posting photos as I go. She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... this can't last. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. ? On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :)Cheers, SteveOn 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Thanks Alec,enjoyed that. Your other passion. When you have been on this site for yearsit's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with.I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Hey guys, I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a fun moment with my friends. https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 18:38:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:38:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank's got a point, but definitely enjoy the paint while it's fresh! Oh Alec, I'm in over my head (if you'll excuse the pun). I will surely be diving Snoopy this summer, but we just got in at 1 AM last night from FL, pulling home a small steamboat that I'm going to (attempt to) restore. I'm renovating a house and all I can think about is building an airplane. I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we are thinking about some time in September/October. I'm excited to host Shackleton in the Keys when you're ready to make the trip. ~ Doug On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back > from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good > job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd > said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a > tight spot (but still aiming for that). I'll be posting photos as I go. > She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... > this can't last. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's > hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) > Cheers, > Steve > On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Alec, > enjoyed that. Your other passion. > When you have been on this site for years > it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. > I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > > Hey guys, > > I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. > However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this > video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a > fun moment with my friends. > > https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive > > Cheers, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 19:53:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:53:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter References: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. ?I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. ?Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 20:11:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:11:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. ?I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. ?Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 20:15:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:15:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Message-ID: <6xb4hitljidqr56e8m5phme7.1461716135363@email.android.com> Doug, I'll volunteer for a crew spot, been wanting a Florida vacation for a while..lol. I'm also well acquainted with steam boats, engines, boilers, etc. Actually anything boat related...if you need any advice ? Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 3:38 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Hank's got a point, but definitely enjoy the paint while it's fresh!? Oh Alec, I'm in over my head (if you'll excuse the pun). I will surely be diving Snoopy this summer, but we just got in at 1 AM last night from FL, pulling home a small steamboat that I'm going to (attempt to) restore. I'm renovating a house and all I can think about is building an airplane.? I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we are thinking about some time in September/October.? I'm excited to host Shackleton in the Keys when you're ready to make the trip. ~ Doug ?? On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) ?Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a tight spot (but still aiming for that).? I'll be posting photos as I go. She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... this can't last. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. ? On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) Cheers, Steve On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Thanks Alec,enjoyed that. Your other passion. When you have been on this site for yearsit's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with.I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic Hey guys, I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a fun moment with my friends. https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 20:18:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:18:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1085838147.2339169.1461716311383.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. ?I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. ?Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 20:55:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:55:09 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208CB895-E386-4631-96E1-74B7656EDB9D@yahoo.com> Hank, are they oil filled motors? I am thinking that if they aren't, then you might get away with drawing more amps on a lower voltage for the same load, if you could keep the motor cooler with oil compensation. You could put a temperature sensor in the thruster to make sure you don't over heat it. I intend to do some temperature comparisons between oil & air filled motors in the next Month. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/04/2016, at 11:53 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > HELP,,, > Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 21:03:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:03:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: <6xb4hitljidqr56e8m5phme7.1461716135363@email.android.com> References: <6xb4hitljidqr56e8m5phme7.1461716135363@email.android.com> Message-ID: I highly recommend going to Doug's holiday home in Islamorada; particularly if his Mom & Aunt are there. 4 of us arrived a couple of days before our conference there & we had free access to the beer fridge along with a continual supply of food, including crayfish. The gulf is at the front door & a 30ft deep canal with 2 cranes & a Boston whaler at the back door. Too good. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/04/2016, at 12:15 pm, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doug, > > I'll volunteer for a crew spot, been wanting a Florida vacation for a while..lol. I'm also well acquainted with steam boats, engines, boilers, etc. Actually anything boat related...if you need any advice ? > > Keith T. > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/26/16 3:38 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic > > Hank's got a point, but definitely enjoy the paint while it's fresh! > > Oh Alec, I'm in over my head (if you'll excuse the pun). I will surely be diving Snoopy this summer, but we just got in at 1 AM last night from FL, pulling home a small steamboat that I'm going to (attempt to) restore. I'm renovating a house and all I can think about is building an airplane. > > I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we are thinking about some time in September/October. > > I'm excited to host Shackleton in the Keys when you're ready to make the trip. ~ Doug > > > >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a tight spot (but still aiming for that). I'll be posting photos as I go. She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... this can't last. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. >> >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) >> Cheers, >> Steve >> On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Thanks Alec, >> enjoyed that. Your other passion. >> When you have been on this site for years >> it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. >> I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. >> Alan >> >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic >> >> Hey guys, >> >> I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a fun moment with my friends. >> >> https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 21:04:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:04:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doug, Rick Maxwell and I were just talking about getting back Islamorada and into some clear water today. Keep us in the loop as your date solidifies. If schedules work, we would love to take you up on your offer and tow the R300 back to your beach house. With the mods I made with the boat, it should perform much better than it did on our first outing at Islamorada . Cheers Cliff On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank's got a point, but definitely enjoy the paint while it's fresh! > > Oh Alec, I'm in over my head (if you'll excuse the pun). I will surely be > diving Snoopy this summer, but we just got in at 1 AM last night from FL, > pulling home a small steamboat that I'm going to (attempt to) restore. I'm > renovating a house and all I can think about is building an airplane. > > I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about > Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys > in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto > train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we > are thinking about some time in September/October. > > I'm excited to host Shackleton in the Keys when you're ready to make the > trip. ~ Doug > > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, >> The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton back >> from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a good >> job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than they'd >> said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of a >> tight spot (but still aiming for that). I'll be posting photos as I go. >> She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... >> this can't last. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's >> hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. >> >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) >> Cheers, >> Steve >> On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Alec, >> enjoyed that. Your other passion. >> When you have been on this site for years >> it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. >> I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic >> >> Hey guys, >> >> I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines here. >> However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in this >> video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to share a >> fun moment with my friends. >> >> https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 21:25:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 01:25:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <208CB895-E386-4631-96E1-74B7656EDB9D@yahoo.com> References: <208CB895-E386-4631-96E1-74B7656EDB9D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <952062638.2394340.1461720357763.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The motors are air filled with upgraded cartridge seals. ?No compensation required. ?I was?thinking ?I could run them on 48 volts if they provide enough power to move the sub. ? I will do a test at the lake tomorrow, I tried in a garbage pail, all I did was rotate the water lol.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,are they oil filled motors?I am thinking that if they aren't, then you might get away with drawingmore amps on a lower voltage for the same load, if you could keep themotor cooler with oil compensation. You could put a temperature sensor?in the thruster to make sure you don't over heat it.I intend to do some temperature comparisons between oil & air filledmotors in the next Month.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/04/2016, at 11:53 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. ?I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. ?Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 21:30:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:30:11 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1085838147.2339169.1461716311383.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1085838147.2339169.1461716311383.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, I've dabbled a little bit in (small!) DC converters and my guess is that a converter that will do the current you're after will be expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat. Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf. You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage. You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have 2 battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but 120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through - running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor. Ie. a brushed motor speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at 48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea what the Perry ones would be, but being older they may well be brushed. Brushless motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller. In both cases torque is proportional to current which is proportional to heat generated. So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings. The trouble is dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat) - but like Alan said, if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation. The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although the heat transfer is not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that the motor will have an inherent resistance that will be designed into it appropriate to the nominal voltage and current, and related to the size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out, thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required). So if you apply less voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to get extra current into the motor at lower voltage. Not quite that simple, but you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers, Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks" Kieth, > I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > > You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > HELP,,, > Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage > 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:08:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 02:08:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <309704818.2384734.1461722902137.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve,The motors have brushes, so I am going to do a test before I get to concerned. ? I can add a battery bank also as you mention to increase the voltage. ?I was planning?something along that line anyways to increase my range. ?I need to add weight to offset the escape pod buoyancy, may as well be batteries.Just a thought, what about running them on AC with a rectifier.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 7:30 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:09:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 02:09:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: <1085838147.2339169.1461716311383.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59525446.2988122.1461722958095.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Additionally the motor controller would have to be considered.so even if you could keep the motor cool with oil to achievehigher amps through the thinner windings ( my idea), the motor controllermight not be rated for the extra amps you would draw for?the load.You will get extra current in to the motor if you put a load on it,ie. if you stall a motor you get a large current that burns the motor out.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:18:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:18:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:45:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:45:23 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi guys, Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter. The DC rectifier could work but again for the currents involved the capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong. Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers, Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use > a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan > the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make > it quiet. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi Hank, > I've dabbled a little bit in (small!) DC converters and my guess is that a > converter that will do the current you're after will > be expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of > heat. Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be > hard to find off the shelf. > > You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank > and rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech > solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher > voltage. You would get some nice redundancy there too if you > have 2 battery banks controlling different thruster sets. > > As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but 120VDC even more so. > > I just saw Alan's email come through - running it off lower voltage is > definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor. Ie. a brushed > motor speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at 48VDC > would give you less than half speed) - no idea what the Perry ones would > be, but being older they may well be brushed. Brushless motor speed is > proportional to frequency applied by the controller. In both cases torque > is proportional to current which is proportional to heat generated. So the > greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, > and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of > insulation on the motor windings. The trouble is dissipating the heat from > the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are > producing their own heat) - but like Alan said, if you've got it oil > compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation. The thermal > conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although the > heat transfer is not quite as simple as that. > > I'm also pretty sure that the motor will have an inherent resistance that > will be designed into it appropriate to the nominal voltage and current, > and related to the size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out, thinner > wires for high voltage as less current is required). So if you apply > less voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I > don't think you will be able to get extra current into the motor at lower > voltage. Not quite that simple, but you get the idea. > > (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on > electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks" Kieth, >> I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another. >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> >> You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. >> >> Keith T. >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter >> >> HELP,,, >> Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage >> 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:47:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:47:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Keith, if you would, email me off list at spiritofcalypso at gmail.com I would appreciate it! Alan, glad you enjoyed your stay a couple years back! You are a fun guy to work with, looking forward to seeing you again at some point. Cliff, will definitely keep you informed. I would love to see the R300 in action, post-mods. ~ Doug On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Doug, Rick Maxwell and I were just talking about getting back Islamorada > and into some clear water today. Keep us in the loop as your date > solidifies. If schedules work, we would love to take you up on your offer > and tow the R300 back to your beach house. With the mods I made with the > boat, it should perform much better than it did on our first outing at > Islamorada . > > Cheers > > Cliff > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hank's got a point, but definitely enjoy the paint while it's fresh! >> >> Oh Alec, I'm in over my head (if you'll excuse the pun). I will surely be >> diving Snoopy this summer, but we just got in at 1 AM last night from FL, >> pulling home a small steamboat that I'm going to (attempt to) restore. I'm >> renovating a house and all I can think about is building an airplane. >> >> I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about >> Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys >> in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto >> train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we >> are thinking about some time in September/October. >> >> I'm excited to host Shackleton in the Keys when you're ready to make the >> trip. ~ Doug >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, >>> The first scratch hurts the most, so maybe just get it over with ;-) >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hey! How are you getting along with Snoopy? I finally got Shackleton >>> back from the painter yesterday, so proper assembly starts now. They did a >>> good job and didn't charge too much, but took a whole month longer than >>> they'd said, which put my race to be complete by the convention in a bit of >>> a tight spot (but still aiming for that). I'll be posting photos as I go. >>> She looks so spotless I dare not step anywhere on the boat with shoes on... >>> this can't last. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> Great documentation of a very cool hobby Alec. Glad to see that Snoopy's >>> hangar is being utilized to full advantage! ~ Doug S. >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Wow that's really cool Alec, what a Dad! :) >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> On 16 Apr 2016 6:24 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Alec, >>> enjoyed that. Your other passion. >>> When you have been on this site for years >>> it's good to learn a bit about the people you are talking with. >>> I really appreciated the time I spent travelling & meeting psubers. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 16, 2016 1:54 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic >>> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> I know, I know, we're supposed to keep the discussion to submarines >>> here. However, there's a submarine in the background and the trailer in >>> this video belongs to the new sub. Sounds like a good enough excuse to >>> share a fun moment with my friends. >>> >>> https://vimeo.com/alecsmyth/firstdrive >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 22:53:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 02:53:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <309704818.2384734.1461722902137.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <309704818.2384734.1461722902137.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1650014218.2974762.1461725589005.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,another option is to change the propellers to a smaller diameter withless pitch, so there is less load on the motor, if you can live with less speed!As Steve said the manufacturer designed it for 120 V & unless you knowall the parameters it's difficult to know what you can get away with.As an illustration of the complexity, a?120V electric raiser isn't as powerful as a 12V cordless drill!Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Steve,The motors have brushes, so I am going to do a test before I get to concerned. ? I can add a battery bank also as you mention to increase the voltage. ?I was planning?something along that line anyways to increase my range. ?I need to add weight to offset the escape pod buoyancy, may as well be batteries.Just a thought, what about running them on AC with a rectifier.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 7:30 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 23:05:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 03:05:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1650014218.2974762.1461725589005.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1650014218.2974762.1461725589005.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1589271288.1484805.1461726318879.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I don't see why I?need to change props? ?if the motor is running at 48v then the rpm is lower so the load is lower. ? Is this not correct?Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 8:56 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,another option is to change the propellers to a smaller diameter withless pitch, so there is less load on the motor, if you can live with less speed!As Steve said the manufacturer designed it for 120 V & unless you knowall the parameters it's difficult to know what you can get away with.As an illustration of the complexity, a?120V electric raiser isn't as powerful as a 12V cordless drill!Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Steve,The motors have brushes, so I am going to do a test before I get to concerned. ? I can add a battery bank also as you mention to increase the voltage. ?I was planning?something along that line anyways to increase my range. ?I need to add weight to offset the escape pod buoyancy, may as well be batteries.Just a thought, what about running them on AC with a rectifier.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 7:30 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 26 23:48:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:48:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 01:57:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:57:26 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fair enough Keith, I'm happy to concur :) On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting > DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC > ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers > crossed) in my experience. > > With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred > option. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi guys, > Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to > get a standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive > inverter. The DC rectifier could work but again for the currents involved > the capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's > another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong. Plus it's probably all > quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the > electrical energy just through the conversion). > > Cheers, > Steve > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then >> use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling >> fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and >> make it quiet. >> >> Keith T. >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter >> >> Hi Hank, >> I've dabbled a little bit in (small!) DC converters and my guess is >> that a converter that will do the current you're after will >> be expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of >> heat. Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be >> hard to find off the shelf. >> >> You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank >> and rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech >> solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher >> voltage. You would get some nice redundancy there too if you >> have 2 battery banks controlling different thruster sets. >> >> As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but 120VDC even more so. >> >> I just saw Alan's email come through - running it off lower voltage is >> definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor. Ie. a brushed >> motor speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at 48VDC >> would give you less than half speed) - no idea what the Perry ones would >> be, but being older they may well be brushed. Brushless motor speed is >> proportional to frequency applied by the controller. In both cases torque >> is proportional to current which is proportional to heat generated. So the >> greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, >> and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of >> insulation on the motor windings. The trouble is dissipating the heat from >> the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are >> producing their own heat) - but like Alan said, if you've got it oil >> compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation. The thermal >> conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although the >> heat transfer is not quite as simple as that. >> >> I'm also pretty sure that the motor will have an inherent resistance that >> will be designed into it appropriate to the nominal voltage and current, >> and related to the size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out, thinner >> wires for high voltage as less current is required). So if you apply >> less voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I >> don't think you will be able to get extra current into the motor at lower >> voltage. Not quite that simple, but you get the idea. >> >> (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did >> on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks" Kieth, >>> I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than >>> another. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> >>> You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. >>> >>> Keith T. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter >>> >>> HELP,,, >>> Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only >>> manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with >>> something. >>> Hank >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 02:45:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:45:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1589271288.1484805.1461726318879.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1650014218.2974762.1461725589005.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1589271288.1484805.1461726318879.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1040022408.3052868.1461739548953.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank,it's to do with motor efficiency. Motors come with specifications such as "nominal voltage",which is the voltage that corresponds to the motors highest efficiency.Another specification is "no load rpm", which is the speed the motor spins at with no load on itat nominal voltage. This relates to "kv" which is the no load revs per volt applied.?? The sweet spot for efficiency is a load that takes the rpm down to about half the max no loadrpm. So if your motor is efficiently set up then the propeller would be selected to put just enoughload on the motor to not exceed or go below that point. If you have less than half the volts then you aren't going to be able to get the motor up in to thateconomical rpm range with the?existing load (propeller). A bit like when you ride a bicycle with no gears (remember them), it takes a lot of effort to go from start to a good cruising speed, butonce you are there you can ride all day. If you don't have the horsepower to push the peddles up in to that cruising speed then it's going to be hard going unless you buy another bike withlower gearing.?? That's how I see it, am open to criticism.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter I don't see why I?need to change props? ?if the motor is running at 48v then the rpm is lower so the load is lower. ? Is this not correct?Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 8:56 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,another option is to change the propellers to a smaller diameter withless pitch, so there is less load on the motor, if you can live with less speed!As Steve said the manufacturer designed it for 120 V & unless you knowall the parameters it's difficult to know what you can get away with.As an illustration of the complexity, a?120V electric raiser isn't as powerful as a 12V cordless drill!Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Steve,The motors have brushes, so I am going to do a test before I get to concerned. ? I can add a battery bank also as you mention to increase the voltage. ?I was planning?something along that line anyways to increase my range. ?I need to add weight to offset the escape pod buoyancy, may as well be batteries.Just a thought, what about running them on AC with a rectifier.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 7:30 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 07:55:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:55:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1907095891.2464205.1461758155381.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' guys.Is it possible to have the motors rewound so they work at a lower voltage?Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 08:24:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:24:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <841335670.2526197.1461759866076.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 09:39:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:39:44 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <841335670.2526197.1461759866076.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841335670.2526197.1461759866076.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d3e65c3-008f-4df3-af1b-c041cf759fc6@email.android.com> Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency. Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc. 2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution. A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC). 3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works. At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents. FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that the pump isn't running all the time. Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? >?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank > >On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to >AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC >ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south >(fingers crossed) in my experience. >With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the >preferred ?option. >Keith T. > > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via >Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 >7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power >converter >Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of >being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty >big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the >currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would >have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go >wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be >surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the >conversion). >Cheers,Steve > > >On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then >use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a >cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the >heat and make it quiet. >Keith T. > > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via >Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 >6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power >converter >Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my >guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will >be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount >of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that >will be hard to find off the shelf.?? >You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank >and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest >low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve >the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if >you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. >As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. >I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is >definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed >motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC >would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones >would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor >speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both >cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat >generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat >needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - >probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The >trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass >through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but >like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot >with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of >air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as >simple as that. >I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent >resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal >voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank >pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is >required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it >will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get >extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, >but?you get the idea. >(that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did >on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) > >Cheers,Steve >On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is >better than another.Hank > >On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, >You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. >Keith T. > > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 >4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power >converter >HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can >only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage >up with something.Hank >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 11:23:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <2d3e65c3-008f-4df3-af1b-c041cf759fc6@email.android.com> References: <2d3e65c3-008f-4df3-af1b-c041cf759fc6@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1627823792.2633691.1461770592565.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Sean and everyone who helped.Yipppeee, I just got an e-mail from Triton Submarines and they said they have the original sub my thrusters came off in the shop. ?Turns out the 14 series ran 36 volt thrusters. ?So Steve was correct and they are 36V after all, providing they are original to that sub. ?Man O Man they are?helpful at Triton. ?I have asked them questions over the years, and they are always happy to help and quickly also.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct?? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency.Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc.2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution.A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC).3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works.At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents.FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that th! e pumpisn't running all the time.Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HiHank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage isdefinitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of ! oil is~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Ve! rizon,Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my ! Perrythrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 13:06:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:06:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: <8iwke84kljciq71d6qnitcgb.1461776797895@email.android.com> Hank, You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 13:30:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:30:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Perry thrusters In-Reply-To: <309035998.2188538.1461697539098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <309035998.2188538.1461697539098.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <309035998.2188538.1461697539098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15458c55822-669e-5a7e@webprd-a13.mail.aol.com> Hank, I wish we knew the history on those. They are a different design than I worked with. Starting with PC-5, Perry built exclusively 120 volt propulsion systems except for 1401 (which was 36 and used a golf cart motor for the main prop). The ones you have may have come from 1402, but that was after my day at Perry. The Army had been using one of the 3 boats for many years at the Kwajalein test center, and it may have had 120 volt service. I'm just not sure about that. Your test suggests they were from something besides 1401, in any case. I'll be interested to see what you come up with to step that voltage up. Maybe something modern would do it without too much waste. I wouldn't bet on it, though. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 3:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Perry thrusters Hi Vance, I bought these Perry thrusters from Steve and he thinks they are 36V DC and I am not so sure. The internal wiring seems light to me for 36V Do you recall what voltage they might be? Thanks' Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 13:28:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:28:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <8iwke84kljciq71d6qnitcgb.1461776797895@email.android.com> References: <8iwke84kljciq71d6qnitcgb.1461776797895@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1350917133.2720338.1461778087509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Kieth,I just tested the motor with 36v and I am?only getting 1050 rpm instead of 1750 rpm. ?This make me think the motors are not original to the 14 series Perry. ?I might be right back where I started. ?What is a voltage doubler circuit? ?sounds interesting.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:06 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 13:32:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Perry thrusters In-Reply-To: <15458c55822-669e-5a7e@webprd-a13.mail.aol.com> References: <15458c55822-669e-5a7e@webprd-a13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <112741407.2720595.1461778367618.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Vance,I will keep?padding away at it. ?They are such nice motors!Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:30 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I wish we knew the history on those. They are a different design than I worked with. Starting?with PC-5, Perry built exclusively 120 volt propulsion systems except for 1401 (which was 36 and used a golf cart motor for?the main prop).?The ones you have may have come from 1402, but that was after my day at Perry. The Army had been using one of the 3 boats for many years at the Kwajalein test center, and it?may have had 120 volt service. I'm just not sure about that. Your test suggests they were from something besides 1401, in any case. I'll be?interested to see what you come up with to step that voltage up. Maybe something modern would do it without too much waste. I wouldn't bet on it, though.Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 3:09 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Perry thrusters Hi Vance,I bought these Perry thrusters from Steve and he thinks they are 36V DC ?and I am not so sure. ?The internal wiring seems ?light to me for 36V ? Do you recall what voltage they might be?Thanks'Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 13:42:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:42:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1214018340.2336608.1461714784140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15458d0b0d0-669e-5b34@webprd-a13.mail.aol.com> Second note: I just went through the Busby books. It looks like all four of the PC-3s and both of the PC-14s were equipped with 36volt propulsion systems. That's interesting, but does little to explain where in the hell those units you have came from. I do know that Mike Stahle had both the 14s (at different times) and also owned all the rights to Perry submersibles (plans, engineering, spares, and all the rest). He was also the president of the Jupiter based Perry ROV company for about ten years. Those thrusters could well have been spares from something else. Mike has disappeared into retirement land these last few years, and I don't know how to get in touch with him anymore. Otherwise, we could ask. Sorry. No help here. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 7:56 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,, Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 14:41:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:41:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: <4qivvei3apob759u86y0ycnw.1461782472117@email.android.com> Hank, It's a combination of diodes and caps that multiplies voltage, but it only works with an AC input (I forgot about that when I mentioned it). So it's either add batteries ?or use an inverter. On the plus side you might be able to use the cooling fan to circulate air through the co2 scrubber. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 10:28 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,I just tested the motor with 36v and I am?only getting 1050 rpm instead of 1750 rpm. ?This make me think the motors are not original to the 14 series Perry. ?I might be right back where I started. ?What is a voltage doubler circuit? ?sounds interesting.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:06 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 15:50:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:50:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1350917133.2720338.1461778087509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <8iwke84kljciq71d6qnitcgb.1461776797895@email.android.com> <1350917133.2720338.1461778087509.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497994370.3444035.1461786630352.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,where are you getting the 1750 rpm figure from?If the 1750 is the name plate rpm on the motor, that would be the no load rpmwithout the prop. If you are getting 1050 rpm off 36V, that is a kv value (rpm per Volt)of 30. If you divide 1750 rpm by 30 you get 58V as the motor voltage, but that was when themotor was new; various things like bearings & de-magnetizing of the magnets will effect that.I would say (if 1750 is the rated motor rpm) that 36V would be in the ball park.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,I just tested the motor with 36v and I am?only getting 1050 rpm instead of 1750 rpm. ?This make me think the motors are not original to the 14 series Perry. ?I might be right back where I started. ?What is a voltage doubler circuit? ?sounds interesting.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:06 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 17:23:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:23:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <497994370.3444035.1461786630352.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <497994370.3444035.1461786630352.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1978401535.2283037.1461792226198.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Troy at Triton Submarines told me it should be 1750 rpm. ?If I put 48v to it I get about 1400 rpm. ?Maybe I should take one to the lake and try it.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:53 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,where are you getting the 1750 rpm figure from?If the 1750 is the name plate rpm on the motor, that would be the no load rpmwithout the prop. If you are getting 1050 rpm off 36V, that is a kv value (rpm per Volt)of 30. If you divide 1750 rpm by 30 you get 58V as the motor voltage, but that was when themotor was new; various things like bearings & de-magnetizing of the magnets will effect that.I would say (if 1750 is the rated motor rpm) that 36V would be in the ball park.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,I just tested the motor with 36v and I am?only getting 1050 rpm instead of 1750 rpm. ?This make me think the motors are not original to the 14 series Perry. ?I might be right back where I started. ?What is a voltage doubler circuit? ?sounds interesting.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:06 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi Hank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 17:45:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:45:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1627823792.2633691.1461770592565.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15459af1d8d-16b3-6b8d@webprd-a102.mail.aol.com> Who has which sub that the thrusters came from? -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2016 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Thank you Sean and everyone who helped. Yipppeee, I just got an e-mail from Triton Submarines and they said they have the original sub my thrusters came off in the shop. Turns out the 14 series ran 36 volt thrusters. So Steve was correct and they are 36V after all, providing they are original to that sub. Man O Man they are helpful at Triton. I have asked them questions over the years, and they are always happy to help and quickly also. Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency. Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc. 2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution. A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC). 3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works. At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents. FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that th! e pumpisn't running all the time. Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Kieth, If I use my 3,000W inverter do I not need a rectifier? could I still reverse them? Thank you Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys, Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter. The DC rectifier could work but again for the currents involved the capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong. Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers, Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HiHank, I've dabbled a little bit in (small!) DC converters and my guess is that a converter that will do the current you're after will be expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat. Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf. You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage. You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have 2 battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but 120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through - running it off lower voltage isdefinitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor. Ie. a brushed motor speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at 48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea what the Perry ones would be, but being older they may well be brushed. Brushless motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller. In both cases torque is proportional to current which is proportional to heat generated. So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings. The trouble is dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat) - but like Alan said, if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation. The thermal conductivity of ! oil is~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although the heat transfer is not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that the motor will have an inherent resistance that will be designed into it appropriate to the nominal voltage and current, and related to the size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out, thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required). So if you apply less voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to get extra current into the motor at lower voltage. Not quite that simple, but you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers, Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth, I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another. Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Ve! rizon,Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,, Turns out my ! Perrythrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 18:16:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:16:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <1978401535.2283037.1461792226198.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <497994370.3444035.1461786630352.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1978401535.2283037.1461792226198.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37430B90-948A-472C-88B1-482A11D98CE4@yahoo.com> Met Troy when he was in Auckland a few years back, as did Hugh. Nice guy, let me hop in his Triton 3000. As said, motor magnets can loose their magnetism over time & especially if they get too hot; which is more of a prospect when you are enclosing it in a can as we do. This could make it under perform. You are not diving in Florida so you have the cold water on your side. Sent from my iPad > On 28/04/2016, at 9:23 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Troy at Triton Submarines told me it should be 1750 rpm. If I put 48v to it I get about 1400 rpm. Maybe I should take one to the lake and try it. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:53 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > where are you getting the 1750 rpm figure from? > If the 1750 is the name plate rpm on the motor, that would be the no load rpm > without the prop. If you are getting 1050 rpm off 36V, that is a kv value (rpm per Volt) > of 30. If you divide 1750 rpm by 30 you get 58V as the motor voltage, but that was when the > motor was new; various things like bearings & de-magnetizing of the magnets will effect that. > I would say (if 1750 is the rated motor rpm) that 36V would be in the ball park. > Alan > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi Kieth, > I just tested the motor with 36v and I am only getting 1050 rpm instead of 1750 rpm. This make me think the motors are not original to the 14 series Perry. I might be right back where I started. What is a voltage doubler circuit? sounds interesting. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:06 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > You would still need to turn the AC back to DC with a rectifier and remove the DC ripple with a capacitor. I had a thought about trying a voltage doubler circuit instead of an inverter, but it sounds like you have come up with a solution with the replacement motors. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/27/16 5:24 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi Kieth, > If I use my 3,000W inverter do I not need a rectifier? could I still reverse them? > Thank you > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting > DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. > > With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred option. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi guys, > Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter. The DC rectifier could work but again for the currents involved the capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong. Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). > > Cheers, > Steve > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > Hi Hank, > I've dabbled a little bit in (small!) DC converters and my guess is that a converter that will do the current you're after will be expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat. Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf. > > You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage. You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have 2 battery banks controlling different thruster sets. > > As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but 120VDC even more so. > > I just saw Alan's email come through - running it off lower voltage is definitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor. Ie. a brushed motor speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at 48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea what the Perry ones would be, but being older they may well be brushed. Brushless motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller. In both cases torque is proportional to current which is proportional to heat generated. So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings. The trouble is dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat) - but like Alan said, if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation. The thermal conductivity of oil is ~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although the heat transfer is not quite as simple as that. > > I'm also pretty sure that the motor will have an inherent resistance that will be designed into it appropriate to the nominal voltage and current, and related to the size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out, thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required). So if you apply less voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to get extra current into the motor at lower voltage. Not quite that simple, but you get the idea. > > (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks" Kieth, > I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter > > HELP,,, > Turns out my Perry thrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc. I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank. Can I step the voltage up with something. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 18:52:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:52:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <15459af1d8d-16b3-6b8d@webprd-a102.mail.aol.com> References: <15459af1d8d-16b3-6b8d@webprd-a102.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <1758271323.2809453.1461797572547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The thrusters are from PC1402 ?and Triton is working on it right now. On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 3:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Who has which sub that the thrusters came from? -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2016 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Thank you Sean and everyone who helped.Yipppeee, I just got an e-mail from Triton Submarines and they said they have the original sub my thrusters came off in the shop. ?Turns out the 14 series ran 36 volt thrusters. ?So Steve was correct and they are 36V after all, providing they are original to that sub. ?Man O Man they are?helpful at Triton. ?I have asked them questions over the years, and they are always happy to help and quickly also.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct?? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency.Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc.2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution.A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC).3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works.At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents.FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that t h! e pumpisn't running all the time.Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HiHank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage isdefinitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of ! oil is~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Ve! rizon,Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my ! Perrythrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 20:37:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:37:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: <20160427173743.E7651ADE@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 22:59:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:59:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <20160427173743.E7651ADE@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20160427173743.E7651ADE@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <926604873.2948480.1461812380962.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I have a manual tachometer for my antique gas and steam engines.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 6:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? How are you measuring the rpm ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:52:52 +0000 (UTC) The thrusters are from PC1402 ?and Triton is working on it right now. On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 3:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Who has which sub that the thrusters came from? -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2016 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Thank you Sean and everyone who helped.Yipppeee, I just got an e-mail from Triton Submarines and they said they have the original sub my thrusters came off in the shop. ?Turns out the 14 series ran 36 volt thrusters. ?So Steve was correct and they are 36V after all, providing they are original to that sub. ?Man O Man they are?helpful at Triton. ?I have asked them questions over the years, and they are always happy to help and quickly also.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct?? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency.Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc.2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution.A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC).3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works.At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents.FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that t h! e pumpisn't running all the time.Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HiHank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage isdefinitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of ! oil is~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Ve! rizon,Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my ! Perrythrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 27 23:33:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:33:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: <20160427203319.168FA08B@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 00:01:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:01:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Message-ID: <20160427210101.168FBE52@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 03:49:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:49:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: References: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5721C087.7000009@psubs.org> That's about the time I'm planning on a return trip to the keys. Keep us informed Doug so we can try to coordinate something. Jon > > I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more > about Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip > down to the Keys in the fall, which will probably include > Snoopy riding down on the auto train. If anyone would like to > bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we are thinking > about some time in September/October. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 06:34:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:34:43 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding Message-ID: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> Am re-phrasing a question I asked a little while back. I am making my aluminium thruster housing in 3 sections, front & back with a cylinder between them. I had wanted to weld the cylinder section to the front housing but was advised I would get too much distortion. If I made a steel plug to fit inside the cylinder & front section to stop it distorting during welding would this work? It would be a big heat sink. I could press it out afterward if it became stuck in the process. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 08:14:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding In-Reply-To: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> References: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <255817547.3101962.1461845680156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I can't?recall if you have a shoulder on the end cap for the barrel to sit on. ?Since your ?caps are so beefy, machine a substantial shoulder for the barrel to sit on then clamp and weld. ?I am not in love with the big plug idea, probably would work but I have seen things like that go bad from getting stuck. ?I would just clamp it and weld it then machine it true again.?Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 4:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Am re-phrasing a question I asked a little while back. ? I am making my aluminium thruster housing in 3 sections, front & back with a cylinder between them. I had wanted to weld the cylinder section to the front housing but was advised I would get too much distortion. If I made a steel plug to fit inside the cylinder & front section to stop it distorting during welding would this work? It would be a big heat sink. I could press it out afterward if it became stuck in the process. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 08:23:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter In-Reply-To: <20160427203319.168FA08B@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160427203319.168FA08B@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1272385968.3175601.1461846190999.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Honestly, I have no idea how?accurate the mechanical tack is. ?If you have pin holes in the cement, then cover with fibreglass, you could potentially get water between the fibreglass and the cement from the inside. ?That is probably okay where you live, but here that trapped water would freeze and bust your fibreglass. ?What about glass lining the ballast tank. ?My understanding is, you pour the stuff in, then rotate the tank and let it run out. ?I know rotating that big tank would be a pain. ?I guess the good thing about fibreglassing is you will have a protective layer over the cement.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh,? thought maybe it could be reading wrong because of the placement of the strobe indicator.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:59:40 +0000 (UTC) Brian,I have a manual tachometer for my antique gas and steam engines.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 6:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? How are you measuring the rpm ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:52:52 +0000 (UTC) The thrusters are from PC1402 ?and Triton is working on it right now. On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 3:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Who has which sub that the thrusters came from? -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2016 11:26 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Thank you Sean and everyone who helped.Yipppeee, I just got an e-mail from Triton Submarines and they said they have the original sub my thrusters came off in the shop. ?Turns out the 14 series ran 36 volt thrusters. ?So Steve was correct and they are 36V after all, providing they are original to that sub. ?Man O Man they are?helpful at Triton. ?I have asked them questions over the years, and they are always happy to help and quickly also.Hank On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - these motors of yours are DC motors, correct?? If so, the only way to control them is by varying the applied DC voltage, either directly or by approximating it with pulse width modulation (a DC motor controller) which outputs the full rated voltage (120 V?) for some percentage of time (the duty cycle), at a period switched at a relatively high frequency.Either way, you need to step up from your 48 VDC bus voltage. There are three ways to do that. 1). You can go to more batteries in series for a higher DC bus voltage. I like this solution because you get away with smaller wires and have less voltage drop over distance, but it does mean that you need to use regulated power supplies for house loads instead of making direct battery connections to 48 VDC appliances. Also, DC voltage is dangerous stuff, so make sure the bus lines are protected from contact, fused or with appropriate breakers etc.2) You can use a DC-DC converter of an appropriate power rating for your motors. Not sure what it would cost, but this is the simplest and cleanest solution.A converter is essentially a VFD in inverse. To step up any voltage, that voltage must be AC (transformers only work with varying electric / magnetic fields). A transformer operating at typical AC mains frequencies is large and inefficient. As the AC frequency goes up, the size and heat dissipated in components goes down. I'm simplifying a bit, but the DC-DC converter essentially uses some complicated switch mode electronics to invert your 48 VDC to an AC voltage at a very high frequency (kHZ or MHz), then steps that AC voltage up in what is effectively a transformer circuit (to e.g. 170 VAC), and finally rectifies the stepped-up AC voltage back to DC (e.g. 120 VDC).3) Use a M/G set. 48 VDC motor directly connected to an AC generator and rectifier to produce DC at the higher voltage. Old school and inefficient, but it works.At this point, I might just look at the cost of replacing the motors you have with 48 VDC equivalents.FYI, in my own design, I am using a high voltage DC bus (647 VDC), but that voltage only exists in the battery compartment which is an isolated space flushed with sulfur hexafluoride in order to eliminate fire risk and prevent arcing. The battery feeds the DC bus of a VFD, bypassing the rectifier stage which would otherwise be fed by an AC generator or shore power for charging. The VFD outputs variable frequency AC at 440 V, feeding an asynchronous induction motor connected to a hydraulic pump, which outputs to a common pressure line in parallel with a number of accumulators for energy storage. All of the vessel thrusters and actuators are hydraulic, commanded by servo or proportional valves as appropriate. Only 24 VDC is present in the manned compartments. The hydraulic system is inefficient compared to pure electric, but capable of delivering high power in small form factors. I get around some of the efficiency problem by relying on the accumulators so that t h! e pumpisn't running all the time.Sean On April 27, 2016 6:24:26 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Kieth,If I use my 3,000W ?inverter do I not need a ?rectifier? ?could I still reverse them? ?Thank youHank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:48 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most inverters these days are 90 - 98% efficient at converting?DC to AC. You would only need a 100,000 mfd cap to handle smoothing the DC ripple to acceptable levels to 50 amps and they rarely go south (fingers crossed) in my experience. With that said having 120vdc direct from a battery bank is the preferred ?option. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 7:45 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Hi guys,Getting it to AC should be more straightforward in terms of being able to get a?standard product, but still needs a pretty big/expensive inverter.??The DC rectifier could work?but again for the currents involved the?capacitors required for a smooth output would have to be huge, and it's another significant exercise/stuff to go wrong.? Plus it's probably all quite inefficient (I wouldn't be surprised if you lost 20% of the electrical energy just through the conversion). Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:18 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another option is to use an off the shelf 48v to 120v ac inverter then use a bridge rectifier to take it back to DC. To get away from a cooling fan the heat sink could be mounted to the hull to dissipate the heat and make it quiet. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HiHank,I've dabbled a little bit in?(small!) DC converters?and my guess is that?a converter that will do the current?you're after will be?expensive/large/complex and probably generate a significant amount of heat.? Also seems like an obscure set of operating conditions that will be hard to find off the shelf.?? You've probably thought about it, but splitting the battery bank and?rewiring part of it to supply 120VDC is probably the easiest low-tech solution if you have enough cells to put in series and achieve the higher voltage.? You would get some nice redundancy there too if you have?2?battery banks controlling different thruster sets. As an aside, I suspect 48VDC is pretty lethal, but?120VDC even more so. I just saw Alan's email come through -?running it off lower voltage isdefinitely an option, but depends on the sort of motor.??Ie. a brushed motor?speed is proportional to the voltage applied (so running at?48VDC would give you less than half speed) - no idea?what the Perry ones would be, but?being?older they may well be brushed.??Brushless?motor speed is proportional to frequency applied by the controller.? In both cases torque is?proportional to?current which is proportional to heat generated.??So the greater the current in your wires, the more heat needs to be dissipated, and if it's not then something will burn out - probably the thin layer of insulation on the motor windings.? The trouble is?dissipating the heat from the inner windings (it has to pass through the outer windings, which are producing their own heat)?- but like Alan said,?if you've got it oil compensated that will help a lot with heat dissipation.? The thermal conductivity of ! oil is~6x that of air (and water ~24x air), although?the heat transfer is?not quite as simple as that. I'm also pretty sure that?the?motor will have an inherent resistance?that will be designed into it appropriate to?the nominal voltage and current, and related to the?size of the wires (ie. as Hank pointed out,?thinner wires for high voltage as less current is required).??So if you apply less?voltage to the same resistance, it will draw less current - ie. I don't think you will be able to?get extra current into?the motor?at lower voltage.? Not quite that simple, but?you get the idea. (that was mostly dredged up from memories of a university subject I did on electric motors a long time ago, feel free to correct me!) Cheers,Steve On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:18 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks" Kieth,I started to that but I have no idea if one system is better than another.Hank On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:11 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You want a dc-dc converter, just Google it. Keith T. Sent from my Ve! rizon,Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/26/16 4:53 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter HELP,,,Turns ?out my ! Perrythrusters are not 36V but 120 Vdc.? I can only manage 48V dc from Gamma's battery bank.? Can I step the voltage up with something.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 11:18:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:18:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] power converter Message-ID: <20160428081837.E7644BF3@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 12:39:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:39:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Completely off topic In-Reply-To: <5721C087.7000009@psubs.org> References: <1328996597.2187114.1461702255403.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5721C087.7000009@psubs.org> Message-ID: Will Do Jon. ~ Doug S. On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:49 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That's about the time I'm planning on a return trip to the keys. Keep us > informed Doug so we can try to coordinate something. > > Jon > > > > >>> I have a pilot friend who is quite interested in learning more about >>> Snoopy and diving her with me, so we are planning a trip down to the Keys >>> in the fall, which will probably include Snoopy riding down on the auto >>> train. If anyone would like to bring their sub down, or meet up to crew, we >>> are thinking about some time in September/October. >>> >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 16:10:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:10:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Message-ID: <20160428131037.2B1628D4@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 16:39:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:39:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress In-Reply-To: <20160428131037.2B1628D4@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160428131037.2B1628D4@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1751937033.3365851.1461875942709.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Be careful, I always wet the surface then apply matting or you run the risk of not having adhesion. ?Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:10 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I found another use for my super expensive EPDM adhesive :? Gluing fiberglass?cloth onto an upside down surface !???This way I was able to apply the epoxy?while it was held up there.?? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSubs " Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:01:01 -0700 I'm making some good progress in taking care of those pesky pinhole leaks in some areas on the ferro cement hull.? I filled the really bad one hydraulically?with cement, the 3M 5200 is a bit too viscous for the pinhole leaks even with a vacuum going on the hull.? Everything is pretty closed up now.? Finally, I'm doing fiberglass and epoxy resin over the whole area that has been giving me trouble.? I think on my next sub I'll construct a giant rotational single axial machine so I can make sure all the voids get filled.? Also, as I've use a lot of fiberglass and epoxy here and there I'm coming to the realization that?encapsulating the entire ferro hull with fiberglass and epoxy would be beneficial.? Although, the ferro cement sailboat book I followed to construct my hull, did not recommend it ( but they weren't building a sub).? ?Getting ready to start concentrating on lead !??? I'll probably have to add another axel to my trailer?because of the extra weight ;-)??Brian_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 16:55:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:55:12 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding In-Reply-To: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> References: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <572278a9.db42620a.b3df2.0916@mx.google.com> Alan, Stay away from welding or completely re-machine as Hank says otherwise you will havev concentricity issues with the bearings etc. Besides Aluminium will be a better heat sink than a steel insert. Hugh From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 19:47:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 23:47:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding In-Reply-To: <572278a9.db42620a.b3df2.0916@mx.google.com> References: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> <572278a9.db42620a.b3df2.0916@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1087698870.4373692.1461887268829.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,went & talked with a welding specialist this morning who seemed to thinkthe plug idea would be good. His only reservations were whether I couldget the plug out afterward. I said it would be designed to be able to bepressed out.The bearing seat is some distance from the welding & has a thick sectionof aluminum between. See attachment (not dimensionally correct).The plug should stop the?tube section from distorting, shouldn't it.I have 6 of these to make initially & it will be a lot less work if I can weld.I need to go with the steel plug as an aluminum plug could get damagedin the pressing process.Am I convincing you or does this still get the thumbs down?Cheers Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding Alan, Stay away from welding or completely re-machine as Hank says otherwise you will havev concentricity issues with the bearings etc. Besides Aluminium will be a better heat sink than a steel insert.? Hugh _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: thruster housing plug.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 152412 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 20:54:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:54:28 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding In-Reply-To: <1087698870.4373692.1461887268829.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> <572278a9.db42620a.b3df2.0916@mx.google.com> <1087698870.4373692.1461887268829.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5722b0bb.422e620a.3b0be.4456@mx.google.com> I have spent half my life designing things to avoid welding. If you insist on welding then normally you should not have it butted up but a small gap so the weld doesn?t crack after cooling and contraction. Still think you need to allow for cleaning up for concentricity afterwards. You can check with a DTI. I prefer bolt together. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 29 April 2016 11:48 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding Hugh, went & talked with a welding specialist this morning who seemed to think the plug idea would be good. His only reservations were whether I could get the plug out afterward. I said it would be designed to be able to be pressed out. The bearing seat is some distance from the welding & has a thick section of aluminum between. See attachment (not dimensionally correct). The plug should stop the tube section from distorting, shouldn't it. I have 6 of these to make initially & it will be a lot less work if I can weld. I need to go with the steel plug as an aluminum plug could get damaged in the pressing process. Am I convincing you or does this still get the thumbs down? Cheers Alan _____ From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding Alan, Stay away from welding or completely re-machine as Hank says otherwise you will havev concentricity issues with the bearings etc. Besides Aluminium will be a better heat sink than a steel insert. Hugh _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 21:02:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 Message-ID: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> Hi All: I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. John K. (203) 414-1000 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 22:05:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 02:05:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> References: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> Message-ID: <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Wow,you are getting there. You could hold a psub conference in?that sub.Here's the link.http://www.psubs.org/projects/1402451142/project765/Alan From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSUBS, Inc." Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 1:02 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 ? Hi All: I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. John K. (203) 414-1000 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 22:11:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 02:11:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding In-Reply-To: <5722b0bb.422e620a.3b0be.4456@mx.google.com> References: <40656830-09E3-4751-91B2-9A5600AD6916@yahoo.com> <572278a9.db42620a.b3df2.0916@mx.google.com> <1087698870.4373692.1461887268829.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5722b0bb.422e620a.3b0be.4456@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <167060099.4515926.1461895910611.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Hugh,I am wavering; I had ideas of welding fins on to the centralsection to support the kort nozzle & the plug may come in handy for that, however with fins on I wouldn't be able to do post weld machining.Might do the first?housing as a bolt together & experiment with a weldedversion later.Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding #yiv3515954964 #yiv3515954964 -- _filtered #yiv3515954964 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3515954964 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3515954964 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3515954964 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv3515954964 #yiv3515954964 p.yiv3515954964MsoNormal, #yiv3515954964 li.yiv3515954964MsoNormal, #yiv3515954964 div.yiv3515954964MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3515954964 a:link, #yiv3515954964 span.yiv3515954964MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3515954964 a:visited, #yiv3515954964 span.yiv3515954964MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3515954964 p.yiv3515954964MsoAcetate, #yiv3515954964 li.yiv3515954964MsoAcetate, #yiv3515954964 div.yiv3515954964MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv3515954964 span.yiv3515954964EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3515954964 span.yiv3515954964BalloonTextChar {}#yiv3515954964 .yiv3515954964MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3515954964 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv3515954964 div.yiv3515954964WordSection1 {}#yiv3515954964 I have spent half my life designing things to avoid welding.If you insist on welding then normally you should not have it butted up but a small gap so the weld doesn?t crack after cooling and contraction.Still think you need to allow for cleaning up for concentricity afterwards.? You can check with a DTI. ?I prefer bolt together.? Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 29 April 2016 11:48 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding ?Hugh,went & talked with a welding specialist this morning who seemed to thinkthe plug idea would be good. His only reservations were whether I couldget the plug out afterward. I said it would be designed to be able to bepressed out.The bearing seat is some distance from the welding & has a thick sectionof aluminum between. See attachment (not dimensionally correct).The plug should stop the?tube section from distorting, shouldn't it.I have 6 of these to make initially & it will be a lot less work if I can weld.I need to go with the steel plug as an aluminum plug could get damagedin the pressing process.Am I convincing you or does this still get the thumbs down?Cheers Alan ?From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welding Alan, Stay away from welding or completely re-machine as Hank says otherwise you will havev concentricity issues with the bearings etc. Besides Aluminium will be a better heat sink than a steel insert.? Hugh _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 28 22:22:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:22:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That thing is crazy huge! Looking great John, what an impressive sub she's becoming. ~ Doug S. On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow, > you are getting there. You could hold a psub conference in that sub. > Here's the link. > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1402451142/project765/ > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* "PSUBS, Inc." > *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 1:02 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 > > Hi All: > > I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. > > John K. > (203) 414-1000 > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 01:21:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:21:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Message-ID: <20160428222109.2B161302@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 01:47:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:47:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Message-ID: <4ec186.69ab05cd.44544f6b@aol.com> Brian, I had never used spray-on adhesives until the last few months. I've really liked the flexibility and control you can maintain by varying how thinly or thickly you apply it especially when working with fabric. Thin is great for temporary bonding; thick for more permanent. It has worked very well for tacking fabric in place on irregular surfaces without wrinkling and still being able to readjust/reposition it. Possibly it would have an application in what you are doing. Jim In a message dated 4/29/2016 12:21:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hank, I've done a lot of fiberglass and resin both polyester and epoxy, making surfboards and such, the resin will go right thru the glass no problem. I would like to see how you could make glass stick upside down, especially if it was coated first. Trying to do that even if the surface is right side up would be problematic. With an already wet surface you run the risk of not being able to place the fiberglass perfectly flat, one minor screw up and you would have a wrinkled gooey mess on your hands. Ideally working on a right side up surface would be the best, but short of that I think my glue method worked pretty darn good, I may have to even make a youtube instructional video !! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:39:02 +0000 (UTC) Brian, Be careful, I always wet the surface then apply matting or you run the risk of not having adhesion. Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:10 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I found another use for my super expensive EPDM adhesive : Gluing fiberglass cloth onto an upside down surface ! This way I was able to apply the epoxy while it was held up there. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSubs " Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:01:01 -0700 I'm making some good progress in taking care of those pesky pinhole leaks in some areas on the ferro cement hull. I filled the really bad one hydraulically with cement, the 3M 5200 is a bit too viscous for the pinhole leaks even with a vacuum going on the hull. Everything is pretty closed up now. Finally, I'm doing fiberglass and epoxy resin over the whole area that has been giving me trouble. I think on my next sub I'll construct a giant rotational single axial machine so I can make sure all the voids get filled. Also, as I've use a lot of fiberglass and epoxy here and there I'm coming to the realization that encapsulating the entire ferro hull with fiberglass and epoxy would be beneficial. Although, the ferro cement sailboat book I followed to construct my hull, did not recommend it ( but they weren't building a sub). Getting ready to start concentrating on lead ! I'll probably have to add another axel to my trailer because of the extra weight ;-) Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mip://22765f68/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 08:21:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:21:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress In-Reply-To: <20160428222109.2B161302@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160428222109.2B161302@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1934527204.3719546.1461932490637.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I have to admit I don't use cloth, I use 1.5oz matting and it can be tough to soak through especially upside down. ?With matting it is no problem to work upside down. ?I just did it on Elementary 3000. ?I had to glass some pads on for bolting my bumpers on and my struts. ?The only thing I struggle with a bit is outside corners, but I am getting better at it.Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:21 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,??????????????? I've done a lot of fiberglass and resin both polyester and?epoxy, making surfboards and such, the resin will go right thru the glass no problem.? I would like to see how you could make glass stick upside down, especially if it was coated first.? Trying to do that even if the surface is right side up would be problematic.? With an already wet surface you run the risk of not being able to place the fiberglass perfectly flat, one minor screw up and you would have a wrinkled gooey mess on your hands.?? Ideally working on a right side up surface would be the best, but short of that I think my glue method worked pretty darn good, I may have to even make a youtube instructional video !!?? ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:39:02 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Be careful, I always wet the surface then apply matting or you run the risk of not having adhesion. ?Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:10 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I found another use for my super expensive EPDM adhesive :? Gluing fiberglass?cloth onto an upside down surface !???This way I was able to apply the epoxy?while it was held up there.?? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSubs " Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:01:01 -0700 I'm making some good progress in taking care of those pesky pinhole leaks in some areas on the ferro cement hull.? I filled the really bad one hydraulically?with cement, the 3M 5200 is a bit too viscous for the pinhole leaks even with a vacuum going on the hull.? Everything is pretty closed up now.? Finally, I'm doing fiberglass and epoxy resin over the whole area that has been giving me trouble.? I think on my next sub I'll construct a giant rotational single axial machine so I can make sure all the voids get filled.? Also, as I've use a lot of fiberglass and epoxy here and there I'm coming to the realization that?encapsulating the entire ferro hull with fiberglass and epoxy would be beneficial.? Although, the ferro cement sailboat book I followed to construct my hull, did not recommend it ( but they weren't building a sub).? ?Getting ready to start concentrating on lead !??? I'll probably have to add another axel to my trailer?because of the extra weight ;-)??Brian_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 08:27:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:27:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2126495408.3673622.1461932829286.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> John,I am speechless, that is just remarkable. ?Wow, talk about building a dream!Hank On Thursday, April 28, 2016 8:23 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That thing is crazy huge! Looking great John, what an impressive sub she's becoming. ~ Doug S.? On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow,you are getting there. You could hold a psub conference in?that sub.Here's the link.http://www.psubs.org/projects/1402451142/project765/Alan From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSUBS, Inc." Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 1:02 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 ? Hi All: I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. John K. (203) 414-1000 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 08:32:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:32:01 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: References: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: amazing! would love to know more about the project! the tiny isolation doors are double acting? regards, Antoine On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:22 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That thing is crazy huge! Looking great John, what an impressive sub she's > becoming. ~ Doug S. > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Wow, >> you are getting there. You could hold a psub conference in that sub. >> Here's the link. >> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1402451142/project765/ >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* "PSUBS, Inc." >> *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 1:02 PM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 >> >> Hi All: >> >> I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. >> >> John K. >> (203) 414-1000 >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 10:39:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:39:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress Message-ID: <20160429073958.5E992AB0@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 11:24:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:24:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 Message-ID: <20160429082407.2A73A433@m0087794.ppops.net> John, Holy crap ! that's a large sub ! John, where are you located? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSUBS, Inc." Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Hi All: I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. John K. (203) 414-1000 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 11:45:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:45:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <425f4ebd.2023b.1545f89cbc7.Webtop.46@optonline.net> <971378479.4605757.1461895530063.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <572381A5.40107@psubs.org> Great progress John. Think I need to come down and visit soon. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 15:56:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 19:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: <20160429082407.2A73A433@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20160429082407.2A73A433@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1035577553.7605672.1461959807453.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Very nice project. CongratulationsBest wishesJuergen Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles schrieb am 10:24 Freitag, 29.April 2016: John,? Holy crap !? that's a large sub !? John, where are you located? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles To: "PSUBS, Inc." Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:02:26 -0400 (EDT) ? Hi All: I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. John K. (203) 414-1000 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 29 16:30:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:30:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kelly controllers References: <663450817.4904053.1461961822279.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <663450817.4904053.1461961822279.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,one thing that wasn't obvious with my KBS mini controller purchasewas that if you want to run forward / reverse off one axis of a joystick,you have to specify this option. It costs you an extra $26- & is a software change?they make. They call this an electric boat function.Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 30 06:16:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:16:44 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 In-Reply-To: <1035577553.7605672.1461959807453.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160429082407.2A73A433@m0087794.ppops.net> <1035577553.7605672.1461959807453.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John There are no stiffeners on the Hull other than the internal walls? Regards Antoine On Friday, April 29, 2016, Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Very nice project. Congratulations > Best wishes > Juergen > > > Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > schrieb am 10:24 Freitag, 29.April 2016: > > > John, Holy crap ! that's a large sub ! John, where are you located? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > To: "PSUBS, Inc." > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Update photos on Project 765 > Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:02:26 -0400 (EDT) > > Hi All: > > I've added some new photos to the Project 765 album. Its been a while. > > John K. > (203) 414-1000 > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: